<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1900</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 11 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1900<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
CDROM Storage<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
RE: British imperialism, et al.<BR>
Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re Spacing <BR>
Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
Re: D-Berry - Sorry off TML<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: JTAS Online<BR>
RE: Re Spacing <BR>
Re: Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
RE: Robots<BR>
Bread Pudding<BR>
RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now? (was: Re: Even more to doabout art)<BR>
re: Traveller TV show?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:52:11 -0800<BR>
From: "Mike Linsenmayer" <mlinsenmayer@symantec.com><BR>
Subject: CDROM Storage<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Not that long ago, 5 1/4 inch disks showed no sign of going<BR>
> out of style.  Granted, the CD-ROM will last much longer,<BR>
> but how hard will it be to find a machine that will read it<BR>
> in 20 years?<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Standard CDR media has a "shelf life" of 60 years. The emulsion on the CD's<BR>
will begin to degrade around this time. That means, sitting in a jewel case<BR>
in a dark closet. Now, the emulsion on the CD's are based on photographic<BR>
paper and so should be treated like a photograph that you would to keep and<BR>
preserve. If left in heat, light, etc. it will degrade faster. These<BR>
coatings are what is layered on top of the CDR's, Hence why you should not<BR>
write on them. When you make a CD you are actually burning little holes in<BR>
the photographic emulsion. If you notice the largest makers of CDR's also<BR>
make Photographic suppliers etc. I.e. Kodak. Now,  for regular CD's you<BR>
usually buy in the store, these are pressed aluminum that is sandwiched<BR>
between sheets of plastic, and should last well..... forever, it is the<BR>
plastic on which the aluminum is pressed that will degrade.. I have read<BR>
info that says these have shelf lives of something on the order or 250<BR>
years or more. Since plastics have not been around that long we have no<BR>
real way to know.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Linsenmayer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:59:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
At 08:45 AM 2/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Or "bread pudding".<BR>
>> <BR>
>In Japanese?  That is a new one on me!  Are you serious?  I've seen the<BR>
>following kanji for "Kiri": paulownia tree (most common for names); fog<BR>
>(unusual for names); cutting (never used for names).<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, cheap attempt at keyboard kills.<BR>
<BR>
Many moons ago the first article on the Vilani language in JTAS told use it<BR>
was a tonal language. Each sound had six different tones. The example given<BR>
was the common first name Eneri, or E(4)ne(1)ri(2), and e(2)ne(5)ri(2)<BR>
which is a kind of bread pudding. So I saw your name and immediately went<BR>
there.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
There was once a time when the church controlled the government.<BR>
The laws of the church were the laws of the land. Belief in God <BR>
was strong, teachings of the church were rarely questioned.<BR>
This time was called The Dark Ages.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:06:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
At 11:50 AM 2/11/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 00-02-11 10:06:05 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
><humor><BR>
>I put "Follow Me!" in Star Mercs . . . unless it got cut by the censor . . . <BR>
>it was phrased thus: <BR>
><BR>
>Official Motto if the Imperial Army Infantry School: "Follow Me!"<BR>
>Unofficial motto, ditto: "Have fun, sir!"<BR>
></humor><BR>
<BR>
I prefer "like Hell!"<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sure there have been others, and I'll have to look them up soon for <BR>
>GT:GF, but right now I have other things on my mind.<BR>
<BR>
I posted a few of the ones from the book here, and no, I am not going to<BR>
explain why the 73rd LID is called the Townies. Buy the book. :)<BR>
><BR>
>Business-related question: I am considering a possible product that would <BR>
>involve "walkthroughs" of one or more ships (Beowulf of course, possible <BR>
>Marava, maybe AHL in our wildest dreams -- and I don't mean Austin Hockey <BR>
>League) that would be sold on a CD.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, yes.  Big yes. Big jumping freaking yes!!<BR>
<BR>
>When GDW closed down we sold every Twilight: 2000 book in the warehouse<BR>
into >the distribution chain <BR>
<BR>
You know what I'd like to see? The first four adventures from the T2K<BR>
series combined into one book. From Free City of Krakow to The Balck<BR>
Madonna. I still run those from time to time.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:12:42 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: British imperialism, et al.<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> >Ah, yes.  The Empress Wave.  Don't we all!<BR>
> <BR>
> Perhaps we'll still get the chance. Somewhere in G:T it says <BR>
> that, although the assassination of Strephon never happened,<BR>
> that the Emperor was absent from Capital at the same time as<BR>
> during the MT storyline and for the same reason. As I recall<BR>
> Strephon was at Longbow II getting data on the Empress Wave.<BR>
> So maybe....<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.  While I am deeply curious as to what GDW had  planned  for<BR>
the Empress Wave, I do have a problem with it:  Since it  travels<BR>
at lightspeed at takes 3.26 years to  cross  a  hex.  Look  where<BR>
that places the wave front in 1107,  remember  also  the  Zhodani<BR>
Core expeditions, and ask yourself if the Zhodani Consulate would<BR>
have been interested in the 5FW.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:19:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
>>> Ah, yes.  The Empress Wave.  Don't we all!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Perhaps we'll still get the chance. Somewhere in G:T it says<BR>
>> that, although the assassination of Strephon never happened,<BR>
>> that the Emperor was absent from Capital at the same time as<BR>
>> during the MT storyline and for the same reason. As I recall<BR>
>> Strephon was at Longbow II getting data on the Empress Wave.<BR>
>> So maybe....<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmmm.  While I am deeply curious as to what GDW had  planned  for<BR>
> the Empress Wave, I do have a problem with it:  Since it  travels<BR>
> at lightspeed at takes 3.26 years to  cross  a  hex.  Look  where<BR>
> that places the wave front in 1107,  remember  also  the  Zhodani<BR>
> Core expeditions, and ask yourself if the Zhodani Consulate would<BR>
> have been interested in the 5FW.<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
Could someone please contace me off-list and explain what the "Empress Wave"<BR>
is? All I can figure out is that it must be something the Zhodani contacted<BR>
coreward that should not have been awakened.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:21:02 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:45 AM 2/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> >On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Or "bread pudding".<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >In Japanese?  That is a new one on me!  Are you serious?  I've seen the<BR>
> >following kanji for "Kiri": paulownia tree (most common for names); fog<BR>
> >(unusual for names); cutting (never used for names).<BR>
> <BR>
> Sorry, cheap attempt at keyboard kills.<BR>
> <BR>
> Many moons ago the first article on the Vilani language in JTAS told use it<BR>
> was a tonal language. Each sound had six different tones. The example given<BR>
> was the common first name Eneri, or E(4)ne(1)ri(2), and e(2)ne(5)ri(2)<BR>
> which is a kind of bread pudding. So I saw your name and immediately went<BR>
> there.<BR>
> <BR>
Oh, yeah.  I remember that.  (Japanese is so not tonal, LOL)  Cute!  I've<BR>
gotten out of the habit of thinking of Vilani as a tonal language because<BR>
I haven't *noticed* information on tones in any of the later stuff that<BR>
I've been seeing (but it could be my great FOG BRAIN-- perhaps the kanji<BR>
was a bad choice at that, LOL.)<BR>
<BR>
I was just trying to recall if there even is any kind of native Japanese<BR>
dish similar to bread pudding (I don't think so).<BR>
<BR>
Everyone in the 3i is so mixed....  I always assumed that Julissa haut<BR>
D'Bari, Gwendolina Donosev, Tyler Donovan, etc. had some Vilani and some<BR>
Solomani ancestry (though Jiss had red hair and had to be mostly<BR>
Solomani).<BR>
<BR>
The only chara I had that was pure thru and thru was pure Vargr.  =)<BR>
<BR>
Alargor darrKurr (we had no Gvegh when she was created) but known as Sai<BR>
to her friends for some strange reason... (actually, Sai-tana was a sort<BR>
of title in her martial arts school but it got shortened to Sai real<BR>
fast)....<BR>
<BR>
LOL<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
(one of these days I'm going to try to recall enough of our old storyline<BR>
to warp into a new storyline and write it -- I don't have enough old<BR>
records to recreate the original exactly which is why I'm always asking<BR>
ppl if they're our old ref!)<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:31:31 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Spacing <BR>
<BR>
>> IMTU, one word of this afterword, and the Captain, and all the crew, will<BR>
>> be extremely wanted... IMTU IMOJ has a much more, shall we say,<BR>
>> pro-citizen/subject/victim view of "Unjustified termination of sapient<BR>
>> life".<BR>
><BR>
>Why does your IMOJ care about killings by individuals in<BR>
>positions of authority when the rest of the Imperial<BR>
>government does not care about state sponsored killings.<BR>
><BR>
IMTU, they do care. They require a form of Due process. And proof the<BR>
accused is not an imperial noble, for who a jury of nobles must be<BR>
convened, or a citizen, who must be allowed to appeal to the Baron and<BR>
Subsector dukes. Subjects, however, may not be so protected, so long as<BR>
they are on their home world.<BR>
<BR>
Summary executions are limited to Mutiny, Hijack, and Wartime Desertion,<BR>
IMTU, by IMOJ regulation, Admirality Law, and Imperial Military Law.<BR>
<BR>
>Why can't ship captains kill people on a whim when other<BR>
>people can if their local government lets them?<BR>
<BR>
The only cases where that happens is when there is no effective government.<BR>
And even then, IMOJ Tries to take notice. And can impose sanctions for<BR>
murder, kidnapping, and treason, without the aid of, or even in spite of,<BR>
local government or law.<BR>
<BR>
Now, aboard ships, basically, admirality law applies, and for things not<BR>
covered under admirality law, the local law of the ship's homeworld takes<BR>
over.<BR>
<BR>
>What's the difference?<BR>
><BR>
>It's not a question of supersession its a question of<BR>
>jurisdiction. If you are in an area that the Imperium claims<BR>
>to control then yes their rules apply. If you are _not_ in an<BR>
>area the Imperium claims to control (the inside of a ship in<BR>
>jump space in MTU) then they can't stop it. If you take the<BR>
>position that the Imperium does claim to control ships in<BR>
>jumpspace then I suppose the notion that Imperial law<BR>
>covers treatment of those who incite to hijacking makes sense.<BR>
<BR>
No, it has nothing to do with "Claims", but instead "Does". The Imperium<BR>
Claims to rule only the space between the worlds. What they do, however, is<BR>
function as a government that rules the worlds indirectly by implied threat<BR>
of erradication if they fail to comply with imperial wishes. This is the<BR>
basic function of law-making: If you violate OUR rules, we can enforce<BR>
sanction upon you. In the Imperium, only the Imperium can make this true<BR>
beyond a parsec or two.<BR>
<BR>
>Would the ships captain have the right to space people for<BR>
>sedition when he was in an area controlled by  a local<BR>
>government that had given him this right? If not then isn't<BR>
>the Imperium abrogating the sovereignty of its member<BR>
>worlds?<BR>
Not IMTU. Spacing is prohibited by Imperial Law, save for cases where you<BR>
cannot safely hold a prisoner who has show himself to be a threat by<BR>
violence to the ship, it's crew, or to noble passengers. Violations of<BR>
computer security are "Violence" for this purpose, against the ship.<BR>
Otherwise, you have to have a body to turn over.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:38:15 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
<BR>
> People we need to get grip here.  We are only talking about $15.00 for a<BR>
> PREMIUM service. Cut out the jelly donuts for a month and it's a done<BR>
deal.<BR>
<BR>
Some of us *love* our jelly donuts. In fact, we of the Jellyian Protectorate<BR>
take offense to this rearranging of priorities, and declare war on you<BR>
Harrisians.<BR>
<BR>
Harumpf.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: What races in the Traveller universe might have a particular taste<BR>
for jelly donuts? I think the much-maligned K'Kree would.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:41:02 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: D-Berry - Sorry off TML<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Well ttthhhhhrrruuuuuppppp!!!!! to all of you....I spent 20 years (Aug 69'-<BR>
> Oct 89') in the United States Army Security Agency (USASA), a colorful<BR>
> flavor of Military Intelligence.<BR>
<BR>
snip hilarious stuff<BR>
<BR>
> Working with linguists at many different posts all around the world, I<BR>
> learned several saying in over 20 languages. One of the more important I<BR>
> learned, for when you had to surrender was, "I know secrets!" I also learned<BR>
> to order pussy and beer in over 20 languages, real important stuff when<BR>
> you're on a hard ship tour....<BR>
> <BR>
> <This was meant to be funny and if by chance I offended anyone I apologize<BR>
> here and now.><BR>
> <BR>
> Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hot Damn...so there IS a real IISS career path ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:49:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Could someone please contace me off-list and explain what the "Empress Wave"<BR>
> is? All I can figure out is that it must be something the Zhodani contacted<BR>
> coreward that should not have been awakened.<BR>
> <BR>
Do it on list.  I haven't played Traveller since the mid 80's<BR>
unfortunately, and I'd like to know, too.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:56:59 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Online<BR>
<BR>
Well, the manufacturing plant to do that is a tad more expensive than<BR>
the average CR recorder ;-)<BR>
<BR>
HE said CD-R, not RW, so I assumed they were the classic WORM disks<BR>
(Write Once, Read Many), not the newer CD-RW<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Well burn them onto standard CD media instead of the "Re"recordable media.<BR>
> You will now get long term storage but won't have the ability to manipulate<BR>
> the data.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:56:20 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re Spacing <BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: William F. Hostman [mailto:aramis@gci.net]<BR>
<BR>
> >Why does your IMOJ care about killings by individuals in<BR>
> >positions of authority when the rest of the Imperial<BR>
> >government does not care about state sponsored killings.<BR>
> ><BR>
> IMTU, they do care. They require a form of Due process. And proof the<BR>
> accused is not an imperial noble, for who a jury of nobles must be<BR>
> convened, or a citizen, who must be allowed to appeal to the Baron and<BR>
> Subsector dukes. Subjects, however, may not be so protected, <BR>
> so long as<BR>
> they are on their home world.<BR>
<BR>
There's an even simpler explanation - the Imperium is built on trade between<BR>
systems.  Remember that, as everything else flows from that.<BR>
<BR>
'Killer Captains' would stop the passenger trade real quick, as people<BR>
generally do not travel on ships that they might not get off of in one<BR>
piece.  Also, if a Captain of a ship could kill a passenger, what happens to<BR>
property rights to that ship's cargo?  Could the captain steal it also?<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, the Imperium has the jurisdiction (Imperial jurisdiction ends at<BR>
1/10 planetary diameter and less - it fills the rest of space/jumpspace<BR>
IMTU) to enforce property laws onboard spaceships in transit, and what<BR>
property right is more fundamental than to your own life?<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:59:00<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
<BR>
At 11:38 AM 2/11/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>> People we need to get grip here.  We are only talking about $15.00 for a<BR>
>> PREMIUM service. Cut out the jelly donuts for a month and it's a done<BR>
>deal.<BR>
><BR>
>Some of us *love* our jelly donuts. In fact, we of the Jellyian Protectorate<BR>
>take offense to this rearranging of priorities, and declare war on you<BR>
>Harrisians.<BR>
<BR>
Ich bin ein berliner.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:21:10 -0500<BR>
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Robots<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 7:09 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re:Robots<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I just thought of a hand wave that will help explain<BR>
> why ships in the canonical Traveller universe do not<BR>
> have predominantly robotic crews despite the fact<BR>
> that in canon the robots are much cheaper.<BR>
><BR>
> Robotic Ships Crew Rule<BR>
><BR>
> The percentage of a ships crew, at a given TL [the lower of<BR>
> ships computer or ships electronics TL when dealing with a<BR>
> ship constructed at multiple TL's] that may be robotic is<BR>
> limited to the percentage of robotic brain CPU's that may<BR>
> be synaptic at that TL (round down). These percentages do<BR>
> not include Ships troops and subordinate craft pilots,<BR>
> but only ships crew.<BR>
><BR>
> Using Bk. 8 Robots "Synaptic Limits" table (p. 30)<BR>
> we see:<BR>
><BR>
> TL 	Reliable		Reliable<BR>
> 	Synaptic		Robotic Crew<BR>
> 	Percentage		Percentage<BR>
><BR>
> 12	10%			10%<BR>
> 13	15%			15%<BR>
> 14	25%			25%<BR>
> 15	50%			50%<BR>
> 16	60%			60%<BR>
> 17	85%			85%<BR>
> 18	95%			95%<BR>
><BR>
> Therefore using canonical ship designs<BR>
><BR>
> Ship Type/Ship TL		Crew		Max Robot Crew<BR>
><BR>
> Scout Courier/TL 15		1		0<BR>
> Free Trader/TL 15		4		2<BR>
> Far Trader/TL 15		3		1<BR>
> Merc Cruiser/TL 15		8		2<BR>
> [MT Imperial Encyclopedia p. 78 - 85]<BR>
><BR>
> Azhanti High Lightning	  395		98<BR>
> Class Cruiser/TL 14<BR>
> Tigress Dreadnaught/TL 15  4,054   2,027<BR>
><BR>
> At Tl's below 14 most ships PC's will be<BR>
> on can not have more than one robotic crew.<BR>
> This should help maintain more of the Traveller<BR>
> flavor.<BR>
><BR>
> Rationalization [yes I know it's thin]:<BR>
><BR>
> "Synaptic hardware, modeled after sophont brain<BR>
> processes, in non-deterministic, and operates by<BR>
> a method more akin to inductive learning.... At<BR>
> lower tech levels, the inherent unreliability of<BR>
> synaptic processors is so great that a large degree<BR>
> of linear or parallel processing is needed to "check"<BR>
> the results of the synaptic processing." - Bk. 8<BR>
> Robots p. 21.<BR>
><BR>
> In other words regular (linear and parallel) robotic<BR>
> CPU's can only "check up on" a limited number of<BR>
> synaptic processors at a given TL. Arguably the<BR>
> ships computer will have the _same_ problem in<BR>
> dealing with robots and their partially synaptic<BR>
> decisions. Which arguably implies that a ship might<BR>
> have as many dumb-bots without any synaptic processors<BR>
> as it wants but we'll ignore that to keep the hand wave<BR>
> going. If you put more robots on the ship than<BR>
> it can "cope with" problems may develop. {See Adv.<BR>
> 1 The Kinnunir, 2001 A Space Oddessy, lots of Star<BR>
> Trek episodes, or even (if you feel evil) various<BR>
> TNE sources for ideas.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not bad but...(you were expexting that were you not) what about helper<BR>
systems?  This could be dumb bots or slaved robots to a central brain that<BR>
act as helpers to the crew.  A steward for example could prepare the meal<BR>
and have them delivered be a dumb bot like an automated serving cart.  There<BR>
should be a way to reduce crew with automation that does not destroy<BR>
traveller but does allow PC groups to run larger ships.<BR>
<BR>
Once a problem has been diagnosed by a human technition there is little<BR>
reason that a bot could not replace the bad part for example.  This take no<BR>
volition.  It's simple automation.  A low level bot could make beds, do the<BR>
majority of the landery, mop, vacuume, and hundred of other drudge jobs<BR>
safely and efficently.<BR>
<BR>
What they could not do would be deal with non routine situations without<BR>
direct human supervision.  A ship with a robot aided crew would be cheap to<BR>
run on a daily basis but have a great deal of trouble dealing with a major<BR>
unprogramed problem like a boarding action or hijack attempt.  The 'robot<BR>
crew' would be in effect useless unless they were the expensive and high<BR>
tech autonomous types and in the end these cost much more than crew and are<BR>
harder to come by.<BR>
<BR>
The Azhanti High Lightning could probablly run with a crew of 50 or so and<BR>
the rest robots but it could be hyjacked by a very small group of boarders.<BR>
The way to fix this would be to add many more robots specialized for<BR>
security but then you loose your saving to the more expensive and numerous<BR>
robots.  It quickly becomes a case of deminishing returns.  You also violate<BR>
the 3I rule against self mobile armed robots.<BR>
<BR>
Where robots could shine though is as a backup and force mutipliers for a<BR>
human crew.  Say a scout ship had 6 low autonomous bots in a storage locker<BR>
with a box of program modules.  The ship gets into combat and is damaged.<BR>
The cheif engineer locates the damage and then programs the bots to do the<BR>
grunt work while he fines the next problem.  This lets the one engineer work<BR>
on 7 problems at the same time.  He could have bot 1 remove debree, bot 2<BR>
replace damaged curcuit boards, bot 3 repairs the curcuit boards, bot 4<BR>
traces damaged control harness that the enginner will later repair, bot 5<BR>
cuts plate metal to shape for hull patches, and bot 6 does the fetching and<BR>
carring between bots while the enginner is busy trying to find out why the<BR>
power plant is only producing half power.  This would only reduce the crew<BR>
size slightly for all but large ships for day to day operations but it would<BR>
greatly increase efficency of the remaining crew.  The effect would be very<BR>
exponitial.  Small crews would not get much smaller but ships with 10 people<BR>
in a position might have only 3 people (one per shift) and 12 robot helpers.<BR>
<BR>
Charles L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:45:09 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 11 February 2000 17:25<BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 08:45 AM 2/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> Or "bread pudding".<BR>
>>><BR>
>>In Japanese?  That is a new one on me!  Are you serious?  I've seen the<BR>
>>following kanji for "Kiri": paulownia tree (most common for names); fog<BR>
>>(unusual for names); cutting (never used for names).<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, cheap attempt at keyboard kills.<BR>
><BR>
>Many moons ago the first article on the Vilani language in JTAS told use it<BR>
>was a tonal language. Each sound had six different tones. The example given<BR>
>was the common first name Eneri, or E(4)ne(1)ri(2), and e(2)ne(5)ri(2)<BR>
>which is a kind of bread pudding. So I saw your name and immediately went<BR>
>there.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I used to play a 'party' game of my own invention with friends, especially<BR>
after over indulgence at the local hostelry.<BR>
<BR>
The Bread Pudding Game: Rules<BR>
<BR>
Take the name of a book, film, well known phrase etc, and replace a keyword<BR>
or phrase with 'Bread Pudding'<BR>
<BR>
The person who gets the biggest laugh wins, though usually only because<BR>
everyone is now (after multiple rounds) collapsed on the floor clutching<BR>
their sides in pain and trying to catch their breath between burst of<BR>
hysterical laughter....<BR>
<BR>
A few (Ha!...) to get you going...<BR>
<BR>
Indiana Jones and the Bread Pudding of Doom<BR>
<BR>
The Good, the Bad, and the Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
A Fistful of Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
For a Few Bread Puddings More<BR>
<BR>
The Bread Pudding Strikes Back<BR>
<BR>
Attack of the Killer Bread Puddings<BR>
<BR>
The effect of Bread Puddings on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds<BR>
<BR>
The Incredibly Strange Bread Puddings that Stopped Living and became<BR>
Mixed-up Zombies Instead<BR>
<BR>
Bread Puddings of the Gods<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding Emperor of Dune<BR>
<BR>
A Clockwork Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Snow White and the Seven Bread Puddings<BR>
<BR>
The Incredible Shrinking Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding: The New Era <g><BR>
<BR>
etc etc ad nauseum...<BR>
<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond<BR>
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk<BR>
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk/strom.html<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...<BR>
...To run him through with a sword is quite another!"<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:37:56 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now? (was: Re: Even more to doabout art)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:04 -0500 11/2/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
>One of the nastiest (that has an Ob Trav) was the sicko with mind control<BR>
>powers who took over a road-side diner. The characters were disgusted with<BR>
>what he'd done with the other people in the diner, especially the<BR>
>waitresses,<BR>
<BR>
Shades of John Dee in Gaiman's "The Sandman: Preludes and Nocturnes"?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:45:03 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Traveller TV show?<BR>
<BR>
At 11:50 -0500 11/2/00, Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote:<BR>
>In my GT supplements, there is a line that sais there is a guy named Martin<BR>
>J. Dougherty who spends some time on a "project to get Traveller to<BR>
>television".<BR>
><BR>
>Does anyone know anything about this?<BR>
<BR>
It's on P3 of GT:BTC and P4 of GT:StarMercs. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Martin was on the list recently (certainly back at Christmas when <BR>
Legate Legion was sounding off).<BR>
<BR>
Try http://www.highbridgepress.com/page3.html<BR>
<BR>
He has written the above referenced GT books, plus BITS 'The Khiidkar <BR>
Incident' amongst other things.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1900<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1901</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 11 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1901<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Word Generators<BR>
Re: Day length and clock conversions<BR>
Re: JTAS Online<BR>
Re: CDROM Storage<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
re: Day Length and Clock Conversions<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Imperial Law (was Re: Robots)<BR>
Pudding<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
RE: Terraforming<BR>
RE: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
Re: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
RE: JTAS Online<BR>
RE: Social Impact Statements<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now? (was: Re: Even more todoabout art)<BR>
Re: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:51:08 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Word Generators<BR>
<BR>
At 22:09 -0500 10/2/00, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:<BR>
>The BITS website has two Mac products that also generate words. One is a<BR>
>HyperCard stack (called MegaLinguist), the other is the application<BR>
>Imperial Grand Survey.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC The MegaLinguist Stack is still at <BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ rather than at BITS. It's joined by <BR>
you MegaCharacter and Mercenary Stacks. It's on the Traveller page.<BR>
<BR>
Direct URLs<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com//Software/MegaLinguist.sit.hqx<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com//Software/MegaMercenary.sit.hqx<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com//Software/MegaCharacters_II.sit.hqx<BR>
<BR>
I can move it to BITS if you prefer....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:05:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Day length and clock conversions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Howdy!<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard wrote:<BR>
>> >    So, do stewards adapt mealtimes and stateroom lighting to the<BR>
>> > home world of their passengers, their destination world, or not<BR>
>> > at all? Should passengers keep their homeworld cycle as long as<BR>
>> > possible, adjust to the ship cycle and then readjust at their<BR>
>> > destination, or try to adapt on the way? "Clock shift" ought to<BR>
>> > be at least as much a problem to interstellar passengers as jet<BR>
>> > lag is to international airline travel, and for the most part<BR>
>> > would be equally unavoidable.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Actually, I think the most likely setup on *passenger* ships (as<BR>
>> opposed to traders that occasionally carry passengers) would be for the<BR>
>> ship's day to be set such that the time of day when you leave matches<BR>
>> the local time of day t the port, and when you arrive, it does the<BR>
>> same. This helps prevent the equivalent of "jet lag".<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Thus, it'd depend on what worlds you were jumping between...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >      Another question to look at is whether time behaves<BR>
>> > differently in jumpspace than in normal space, and if so, how<BR>
>> > ships solve the problem of synchronizing their own time with<BR>
>> > Imperial astrogation beacons and the like.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> If it did behave differently enough to worry about, it'd affect aging<BR>
>> rolls... :-)<BR>
>>   <BR>
> It would be pretty straightforward to warp the day-night cycle from<BR>
> the departure frequency to the arrival frequency en route. On the other <BR>
> hand, getting the phase right is the hard part. If you have "normal"<BR>
> variability in the jump time, you don't know when you will pop out.<BR>
<BR>
True, but if you are set up to be "in phase" at the "most likely" exit<BR>
time, you won't be all that far out-of synch if you pop out early or<BR>
late. <BR>
<BR>
> I suppose one could use ones hands to make a breeze and do it howevber<BR>
> you want...but it does create the opportunity to have "jet lag" cause<BR>
> someone to be forced to make a task roll they didn't want to have to make :)<BR>
<BR>
Well, note that I said it was done be passenger ships and *not* by the<BR>
sort of ships players are running. PCs will likely just leave their<BR>
ship on a standard day, and use other means of adjustment. Such as<BR>
hitting the sack early the day before breakout, or staying up late. <BR>
<BR>
I also expect that major ports (say Type B or better) will cater to<BR>
folks who *don't* want to adjust to local time for a short stopover.<BR>
Restaurants, casinos, and other "necessities" will run continously. And<BR>
no matter *what* dura it is, you can get breakfast, lunch or dinner at<BR>
a restaurant, do business, or deal with starport officials. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:12:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Online<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> How do I do this?  I've never heard of a home-based machine for stamping CDs<BR>
<BR>
That's the problem. there *isn't* one. <BR>
<BR>
I think Thom thought that my caution was about "re-writable" CDs as<BR>
opposed to "write-once" CDs. Alas, *both* are suspectible to problems<BR>
that "stamped" CDs aren't.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:17:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CDROM Storage<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Standard CDR media has a "shelf life" of 60 years. The emulsion on the CD's<BR>
> will begin to degrade around this time. That means, sitting in a jewel case<BR>
> in a dark closet. Now, the emulsion on the CD's are based on photographic<BR>
> paper and so should be treated like a photograph that you would to keep and<BR>
> preserve. If left in heat, light, etc. it will degrade faster. These<BR>
> coatings are what is layered on top of the CDR's, Hence why you should not<BR>
> write on them. When you make a CD you are actually burning little holes in<BR>
> the photographic emulsion. If you notice the largest makers of CDR's also<BR>
> make Photographic suppliers etc. I.e. Kodak. Now,  for regular CD's you<BR>
> usually buy in the store, these are pressed aluminum that is sandwiched<BR>
> between sheets of plastic, and should last well..... forever, it is the<BR>
> plastic on which the aluminum is pressed that will degrade.. I have read<BR>
> info that says these have shelf lives of something on the order or 250<BR>
> years or more. Since plastics have not been around that long we have no<BR>
> real way to know.<BR>
<BR>
There was apparently a problem with some music CDs some years back. The<BR>
plastic started seperating from the aluminum, which rendered them<BR>
unreadable. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:21:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In a message dated 00-02-10 06:21:50 EST, you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> << David Dietrick >><BR>
>> <BR>
>> D-e-i-<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Dave, like Marc, dislikes it when people mispell his name, but they are <BR>
> both <BR>
>> too polite to mention it.<BR>
>> <BR>
> Why is this considered impolite?<BR>
<BR>
The "polite" as apect is in not embarassing the person who made the error.<BR>
<BR>
> If I never told American English-only speakers, especially those from the<BR>
> South, how to spell and/or pronounce my name properly, I'd be stuck with<BR>
> the moniker "Carrie" and/or "Kerry" (neither of which I can stand) for the<BR>
> rest of my life-- and there is a person in Accounting who is probably<BR>
> going to call me "Kira" for the rest of my life, sigh.<BR>
><BR>
> I wrote my boyfriend's name with the wrong kanji for three months before<BR>
> he corrected me and he only corrected me when I asked him if it was<BR>
> correct because my word processor was showing me about 7 different<BR>
> choices.<BR>
><BR>
> (I had known another person named Hiroshi some years before-- it's a very<BR>
> common name in Japan, and it turns out there are some six, seven different<BR>
> ways to write it, each of which changes the meaning a little.)  I never<BR>
> understood why he didn't tell me the first time-- I was SO embarrassed<BR>
> when he told me, and grateful that I didn't find out from somebody else,<BR>
> like his parents or one of his friends.  I use a different kanji for<BR>
> "Kiri" than most people do, so it's not like I can't understand.  My name<BR>
> means "fog" but the usual way that people write "Kiri" it means "paulownia<BR>
> tree".<BR>
<BR>
Consider my name. Leonard Erickson.<BR>
<BR>
I've only seen two ways to spell my first name:<BR>
	Leonard<BR>
	Lenard<BR>
Though far too many people want to call me "Leo", "Len", "Leon", and<BR>
<grr> "Lenny".<BR>
<BR>
My *last* name on the other hand....<BR>
	Ericsen		Ericson<BR>
	Eriksen		Erikson<BR>
	Ericksen	Erickson<BR>
        Ericssen	Ericsson<BR>
	Erikssen	Eriksson<BR>
	Erickssen	Ericksson<BR>
<BR>
Or in "shorthand": Eri[c|ck|k][s|ss][e|o]n<BR>
<BR>
I'm amazed I see as *few* misspellings of my name as I do.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:22:52 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Day Length and Clock Conversions<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>I also expect that major ports (say Type B or better) will cater to<BR>
>folks who *don't* want to adjust to local time for a short stopover.<BR>
>Restaurants, casinos, and other "necessities" will run continously. And<BR>
>no matter *what* dura it is, you can get breakfast, lunch or dinner at<BR>
>a restaurant, do business, or deal with starport officials. <BR>
<BR>
While I agree with you for the restaurants, casinos, and other places<BR>
that want your business, I'll bet there will be a whole layer of starport<BR>
bureaucracy that doggedly keeps their own bankers hours, knowing<BR>
that you'll have to come to them.<BR>
<BR>
For example: the Traveller introductory adventure _Exit Visa_.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:37:53 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Could someone please contace me off-list and explain what the "Empress Wave"<BR>
> > is? All I can figure out is that it must be something the Zhodani contacted<BR>
> > coreward that should not have been awakened.<BR>
> ><BR>
> Do it on list.  I haven't played Traveller since the mid 80's<BR>
> unfortunately, and I'd like to know, too.<BR>
<BR>
Quick synopsis:<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani may or may not have done something on their Core<BR>
expeditions...it's entirely possible that they merely ran into it and<BR>
and are trying to study it and it's effects, hence the rationale for the<BR>
expeditions...<BR>
<BR>
There is an expanding wavefront moving through normal space, apparently<BR>
centered somewhere coreward of the 3i, perhaps as far as the galactic<BR>
core itself, that affect people, particularly psionics.<BR>
<BR>
What it seems to do is enhance the psionic abilities of normal<BR>
non-psions greatly. To already psionically adept people, it seems to<BR>
have a far harsher affect: it drives them mad.<BR>
<BR>
The initial wavefront manifests itself to everyone as the image of a<BR>
regal woman dressed in black (the Woman is on the cover of the TNE<BR>
manual, looking like Morticia wearing a crown) after the wave front<BR>
passes, psionics works differently.<BR>
<BR>
This was the equivalent of Virus to the Zhodani, and caused as enormous<BR>
upheaval in their society.<BR>
<BR>
It's unknown what this would do to the remnants of the 3I, given their<BR>
deep distrust and loathing of psionics.<BR>
<BR>
(imagine waking up one day, after a particularly weird dream, to find<BR>
that you have turned into a cockroach...that's the level of what would<BR>
happen, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
beyond that no one knows what it is, but istr, this was what Strephon<BR>
was finding out about when he was off surreptitiously visinting Longbow<BR>
II.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:39:31 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law (was Re: Robots)<BR>
<BR>
>Canon states that the Imperium rules "the space between the<BR>
>stars" since jump space is not between the stars than<BR>
>obviously Imperial law must not hold in jump space.<BR>
<BR>
I think this is more of a slogan and general statement of<BR>
approach rather than a definative legal definition.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:49:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Pudding<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The person who gets the biggest laugh wins, though usually only because<BR>
> everyone is now (after multiple rounds) collapsed on the floor clutching<BR>
> their sides in pain and trying to catch their breath between burst of<BR>
> hysterical laughter....<BR>
> <BR>
> Indiana Jones and the Bread Pudding of Doom<BR>
> <BR>
> The Bread Pudding Strikes Back<BR>
> <BR>
> Attack of the Killer Bread Puddings<BR>
> <BR>
> The effect of Bread Puddings on Man-in-the-Moon Marigolds<BR>
> <BR>
> Bread Pudding Emperor of Dune<BR>
> <BR>
> A Clockwork Bread Pudding<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
That's funny.  But you know, it's the blancmanges that you really need to<BR>
look out for-- they'll get you every time!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:48:15 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
> The Zhodani may or may not have done something on their Core<BR>
> expeditions...it's entirely possible that they merely ran into it and<BR>
> and are trying to study it and it's effects, hence the rationale for the<BR>
> expeditions...<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani have been doing their expeditions to the core for quite a while<BR>
now. I seem to recall that they were planning another (maybe the seventh?)<BR>
around the time of the 1100 era. I am almost totally unfamilliar with the<BR>
TNE setting. Did they launch another expedition by that time?<BR>
<BR>
I vaguely recall that the Empress Wave was coming from the center of the<BR>
galaxy. Is that the case? If it is, it's probably not caused by the Zhodani.<BR>
I don't think anything can survive in the galactic core, can it?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:53:06 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Quick synopsis:<BR>
> <BR>
> The Zhodani may or may not have done something on their Core<BR>
> expeditions...it's entirely possible that they merely ran into it and<BR>
> and are trying to study it and it's effects, hence the rationale for the<BR>
> expeditions...<BR>
> <BR>
> There is an expanding wavefront moving through normal space, apparently<BR>
> centered somewhere coreward of the 3i, perhaps as far as the galactic<BR>
> core itself, that affect people, particularly psionics.<BR>
> <BR>
> What it seems to do is enhance the psionic abilities of normal<BR>
> non-psions greatly. To already psionically adept people, it seems to<BR>
> have a far harsher affect: it drives them mad.<BR>
> <BR>
Tres Lovecrafty.  Cool.  But not very Traveller-feeling...<BR>
<BR>
> The initial wavefront manifests itself to everyone as the image of a<BR>
> regal woman dressed in black (the Woman is on the cover of the TNE<BR>
> manual, looking like Morticia wearing a crown) after the wave front<BR>
> passes, psionics works differently.<BR>
> <BR>
Wow.  My characters would have been in big trouble too.<BR>
<BR>
> This was the equivalent of Virus to the Zhodani, and caused as enormous<BR>
> upheaval in their society.<BR>
> <BR>
No doubt!<BR>
<BR>
> It's unknown what this would do to the remnants of the 3I, given their<BR>
> deep distrust and loathing of psionics.<BR>
> <BR>
> (imagine waking up one day, after a particularly weird dream, to find<BR>
> that you have turned into a cockroach...that's the level of what would<BR>
> happen, IMHO)<BR>
> <BR>
Didn't Franz Kafka write a book like that?<BR>
<BR>
> beyond that no one knows what it is, but istr, this was what Strephon<BR>
> was finding out about when he was off surreptitiously visinting Longbow<BR>
> II.<BR>
<BR>
So desu ne.  I kinda like it, sorries guys.  But I wonder if whoever came<BR>
up with the idea had read Angela Carter's "War of Dreams" -- howzat for an<BR>
obscure SF title?<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:02:53 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm.  While I am deeply curious as to what GDW had  planned  for<BR>
> the Empress Wave, I do have a problem with it:  Since it  travels<BR>
> at lightspeed at takes 3.26 years to  cross  a  hex.  Look  where<BR>
> that places the wave front in 1107,  remember  also  the  Zhodani<BR>
> Core expeditions, and ask yourself if the Zhodani Consulate would<BR>
> have been interested in the 5FW.<BR>
<BR>
That's my point exactly, which I mention on occasion ever since I've <BR>
heard of the Empress Wave. Let's face it, if the EW is supposed to <BR>
hit Regina in the early 1200's, it's already ripped through <BR>
subsectors A-D of Gvurrdon sector, and that wasn't mentioned at all <BR>
in Alien Races 1: Vargr and Zhodani, where the sector got some cover <BR>
(not to mention the current state of Zhodani affairs and concerns, <BR>
etc.)<BR>
<BR>
New thought: Okay, if it hasn't been mentioned, then it doesn't exist <BR>
right now. I can accept that. But if it is supposed to exist by 1200, <BR>
then it's got to start sometime between 1120 and 1200. I don't have <BR>
Survival Margin handy, so I don't know when people first noticed it <BR>
moving in, but we can assume that it started about a year or so <BR>
before then. That will give us a reasonable distance in light years <BR>
from Regina subsector, and from there, we can draw a line and figure <BR>
out what along that line is generating this effect, if it's system <BR>
based.<BR>
<BR>
But what if it isn't system based? What if it's a by-product of some <BR>
jumpspace manipulation or something appropriately Ancient-sounding? <BR>
Who knows. (Do you, Loren, Mr Wiseman, sir? And if you do, are you <BR>
allowed to tell us, without having to kill us afterwards, I mean?)<BR>
<BR>
All This For Just Cr0.02,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:30:59 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
These bits, I actually know about - the glory of a university<BR>
education <grin>!<BR>
Bacteria, fungi and algae are simple beasties and suffer at the hands<BR>
of geography as well as ecology. Poor little things really can't<BR>
spread that well at all. You find Pseudomonads in the soil everywhere<BR>
it is healthy enough to support them but it isn't the same bacterium<BR>
everywhere by any means. They mutate too fast, get split up by<BR>
distance and eaten by others, even where they grow well. Stick bugs in<BR>
the ocean and they can only follow the currents - by the time they<BR>
travel a few miles you have lots of little colonies, most of which get<BR>
eaten.<BR>
The general opinion these days is that chloroplasts (the things that<BR>
make green plants green) are trapped microorganisms in a damn close<BR>
symbiosis. It only works well if the plants provide benefits for each<BR>
other - nitrogen fixers in the soil, good respiration / transpiration<BR>
/ photosynthesis balance and so on. Algae cope without this sort of<BR>
thing quite well, so as introduced organisms spread like runny jam.<BR>
Hence the algal blooms we are seeing in the oceans these days.<BR>
<BR>
Ecology has a golden rule, that must apply to terraforming in spades -<BR>
keep it as simple as possible.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> 	Well, the bacteria on Terra managed to spread over much of<BR>
> 	the planet  :)<BR>
> 	All that limits their spread is available resources.  Drop<BR>
> 	a ton of appropriate bacteria in a bay on the ocean, and the<BR>
> 	entire ocean might get colonized (given enough time) if the<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> >Algae are simple food-cycle beasties and don't need much in the way<BR>
> >of interactions with other organisms. Chlorophyllic plants tend to<BR>
> >have complex ecologies with many other inter-relationships.<BR>
><BR>
> 	I'm not sure what you mean by "chlorophyllic" plants, but<BR>
> 	algae can be involved in quite complex ecosystems.  I would<BR>
> 	agree that many vascular plants (things like grass, herbs,<BR>
> 	trees, etc.) depend on more interactions with other species,<BR>
> 	but I'm not sure that this necessarily makes for a more<BR>
> 	stable ecosystem.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:02:51 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:<BR>
> > >And just *think* of the fun that could be created by dropping<BR>
> > >Cletus Grahame into the Imperium. :-)<BR>
> > I've often thought that.<BR>
>Been there, done that.<BR>
>The Dorsai finally got "disbanded" by the Imperium as just too damn<BR>
>dangerous to have on sale, and were 'volunteered' into a clandestine<BR>
>Imperial espionage unit that travelled the Imperium disguised as a<BR>
>circus.....<BR>
<BR>
E.E. "Doc" Smith had a similar idea.  Never got past the notes stage before <BR>
his death.  Somebody wrote a half dozen or so novels based on his notes for <BR>
the "Family D'Albert", who run the most famous circus in the Galaxy and are <BR>
also Intelligence operatives reporting directly the Emperor's head of Security.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
COFFEE.EXE Missing - Insert Cup and Press Any Key.<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:33:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> >And just *think* of the fun that could be created by dropping<BR>
>> >Cletus Grahame into the Imperium. :-)<BR>
>><BR>
>> I've often thought that.<BR>
><BR>
> Been there, done that.<BR>
><BR>
> The Dorsai finally got "disbanded" by the Imperium as just too damn<BR>
> dangerous to have on sale, and were 'volunteered' into a clandestine<BR>
> Imperial espionage unit that travelled the Imperium disguised as a<BR>
> circus.....<BR>
><BR>
> Cletus became an advisor to the Iridium Throne, and was finally<BR>
> assasinated by the Hivers, partially because he'd discovered their<BR>
> manipulation of the Imperium and the rest of known space and was<BR>
> beginnng to use it against them, but mainly because when his friends<BR>
> found Grandfather's pocket universe, there were a _lot_ of people who<BR>
> were just too damn scared of Cletus having access to Ancient's<BR>
> knowledge and technology to allow him to live any more.<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, Cletus knew all this, and there wasn't enough left of the<BR>
> spaceship he was travelling in at the time to identify his body...<BR>
<BR>
Sounds more like Cletus's great-great-...-grandson Donal Greame.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:33:34 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS Online<BR>
<BR>
> There are *three* kinds of "CD" media:<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Factory pressed. *NO* drive can create these.<BR>
> 2. WORM. These can be written to (once) by the right kind of drive.<BR>
> 3. CD-r/w. These can be written to *and modified* by the right type of<BR>
>    drive.<BR>
<BR>
Actually there's four kinds, there's a difference between CD-Rs and CD-RWs<BR>
<BR>
You can't modify a CD-R once written to, even in a CD-RW drive, though you<BR>
can 'hide' already written tracks and files by removing them from the<BR>
"directory"<BR>
thus modifying the 'appearance' of the CD<BR>
<BR>
CD-RWs actually allow you to re-use already used space.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:36:00 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Social Impact Statements<BR>
<BR>
> > "Dulinor does Deneb"<BR>
> <BR>
> Shouldn't that be "Dulinor does Strephon" <g><BR>
<BR>
It wouldn't alliterate then. <BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:27:27<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:02 PM 2/11/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>That's my point exactly, which I mention on occasion ever since I've <BR>
>heard of the Empress Wave. Let's face it, if the EW is supposed to <BR>
>hit Regina in the early 1200's, it's already ripped through <BR>
>subsectors A-D of Gvurrdon sector, and that wasn't mentioned at all <BR>
>in Alien Races 1: Vargr and Zhodani, where the sector got some cover <BR>
>(not to mention the current state of Zhodani affairs and concerns, <BR>
>etc.)<BR>
<BR>
The Empress Wave was a part of Traveller: The New Era. Predates G:T and<BR>
AR:1 by several years.<BR>
<BR>
Since G:T operates in an alternate history where the whole Rebellion/Virus<BR>
thing doesn't happen, it is safe to assume that the Empress Wave might also<BR>
have been writen out of the plotline.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:29:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
At 12:21 PM 2/11/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>My *last* name on the other hand....<BR>
<BR>
You would be amazed at the number of people who don't believe that my last<BR>
name is spelled with an e. I get "Barry" all the time.<BR>
<BR>
Kirsten has gone on the war path over people mispelling/mispronouncing her<BR>
name as Kristen.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:56:07 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now? (was: Re: Even more todoabout art)<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:04 -0500 11/2/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
> >One of the nastiest (that has an Ob Trav) was the sicko with mind control<BR>
> >powers who took over a road-side diner. The characters were<BR>
> disgusted with<BR>
> >what he'd done with the other people in the diner, especially the<BR>
> >waitresses,<BR>
><BR>
> Shades of John Dee in Gaiman's "The Sandman: Preludes and Nocturnes"?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, exactly !<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
I admit I stole the idea from that, but I couldn't remember which comic it<BR>
was in, so didn't mention the reference.<BR>
<BR>
I love using Sandman or Hellblazer plots on my Mage players as well.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and there are few good comics for Traveller plots as well, the original<BR>
"A Distant Soil", "Six from Sirius", "Alien Legion", "Grimjack" , "Nexus",<BR>
"Dirty Pair".<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:00:56 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:<BR>
> > > >And just *think* of the fun that could be created by dropping<BR>
> > > >Cletus Grahame into the Imperium. :-)<BR>
> > > I've often thought that.<BR>
> >Been there, done that.<BR>
> >The Dorsai finally got "disbanded" by the Imperium as just too damn<BR>
> >dangerous to have on sale, and were 'volunteered' into a clandestine<BR>
> >Imperial espionage unit that travelled the Imperium disguised as a<BR>
> >circus.....<BR>
> <BR>
> E.E. "Doc" Smith had a similar idea.  Never got past the notes stage before<BR>
> his death.  Somebody wrote a half dozen or so novels based on his notes for<BR>
> the "Family D'Albert", who run the most famous circus in the Galaxy and are<BR>
> also Intelligence operatives reporting directly the Emperor's head of Security.<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't that Cordwainer Smith? I _know_ I've read stories similar to this<BR>
a long time ago...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1901<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1902</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 11 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1902<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
RE: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
Re: Where are they now? (was: Re: Even more to doaboutart)<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
OT: Name mangling<BR>
Re: Social Impact Statements<BR>
Re: Social Impact Statements<BR>
Re: Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
RE: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
Re: Robot Economics<BR>
Re:Robot Economics<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Empress Wave<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: JTAS Online<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:09:01 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:<BR>
> > > >And just *think* of the fun that could be created by dropping<BR>
> > > >Cletus Grahame into the Imperium. :-)<BR>
> > > I've often thought that.<BR>
> >Been there, done that.<BR>
> >The Dorsai finally got "disbanded" by the Imperium as just too damn<BR>
> >dangerous to have on sale, and were 'volunteered' into a clandestine<BR>
> >Imperial espionage unit that travelled the Imperium disguised as a<BR>
> >circus.....<BR>
><BR>
> E.E. "Doc" Smith had a similar idea.  Never got past the notes<BR>
> stage before<BR>
> his death.  Somebody wrote a half dozen or so novels based on his<BR>
> notes for<BR>
> the "Family D'Albert", who run the most famous circus in the<BR>
> Galaxy and are<BR>
> also Intelligence operatives reporting directly the Emperor's<BR>
> head of Security.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, that's where the idea came from. I sorta expected most people would get<BR>
the reference.<BR>
<BR>
It was Stephen Goldin, and some of them are quite good in a TV Drama way.<BR>
<BR>
While we were playing our Dorsai games we thought it would be fun to do some<BR>
non-main plot games. The one I remember the most most, and I still have my<BR>
character sketch for him somewhere was William Anthnoy Xavier Johnson, OC<BR>
Supply  , Dorsai Mercenary Company (DMC), known as 'Wax' to his friends.<BR>
<BR>
The plot revolved around Wax and his clerks having to arrange some supply in<BR>
"neutral" territory, and the attempts by opposing mercenary units to<BR>
frustrate that.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the fun bit was that the mercs orginally thought we were just<BR>
like any other supply wallahs...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:15:16 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Stop -  in the name of major wounds<BR>
<BR>
> > Cletus became an advisor to the Iridium Throne, and was finally<BR>
> > assasinated by the Hivers, partially because he'd discovered their<BR>
> > manipulation of the Imperium and the rest of known space and was<BR>
> > beginnng to use it against them, but mainly because when his friends<BR>
> > found Grandfather's pocket universe, there were a _lot_ of people who<BR>
> > were just too damn scared of Cletus having access to Ancient's<BR>
> > knowledge and technology to allow him to live any more.<BR>
><BR>
> > Of course, Cletus knew all this, and there wasn't enough left of the<BR>
> > spaceship he was travelling in at the time to identify his body...<BR>
><BR>
> Sounds more like Cletus's great-great-...-grandson Donal Greame.<BR>
<BR>
Damn, I think you're right.<BR>
Imagine, being corrected on a game you've played by someone who wasn't<BR>
playing it !<BR>
<BR>
My only excuse is that we played this game around 1981.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:57:12 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Where are they now? (was: Re: Even more to doaboutart)<BR>
<BR>
Blair Reynolds is still up in Alaska doing odd jobs for Blue Earth and Pagan <BR>
(of which he is a partner).  He wrote a real cool graphic novel for adults <BR>
entitled BLACK SANDS** (very cool with lovecraftian overtones).  He has also <BR>
written a few things under the Pagan label or Amatage House.  His short <BR>
story in DG:  Alien Intelligence is brilliant.<BR>
   Because he feels that DGP, GDW and Chaosium really scamed him with <BR>
non-payments for work done.  He has vowed that he will never illustrate for <BR>
those companies and successors.  And as for indies, he always is nice enough <BR>
to look something over but will not help any company that is related to <BR>
Traveller.  In short he very bitter and disillusioned with the whole gaming <BR>
industry.<BR>
<BR>
   My curosity also extends to writers, does anyone know whatever become of <BR>
Jefferson P. Swycaffer...has he written anything more since those terrible <BR>
ones he did for TSR (Web of Future & War Sprite).  His Traveller fiction was <BR>
brilliant.<BR>
<BR>
**If anyone can get me a copy from their collection or local comic shop.  I <BR>
would endless gratiful.  My copy got "lost" at a convention.<BR>
Boris Cibic<BR>
kafka47@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:58:53 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Consider my name. Leonard Erickson.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Or in "shorthand": Eri[c|ck|k][s|ss][e|o]n<BR>
><BR>
>I'm amazed I see as *few* misspellings of my name as I do.<BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
My apologies for my own and other dyslexic/dystypographic/dysgraphic<BR>
errors. Does "Shadow" work? <GD&R><BR>
<BR>
Similarly, I've seen a number of people mis-spell my name by substituing a<BR>
different first letter, or assuming that my "Wil" {note only one L} is<BR>
shortened from William, and "Will" is fine... Wil is shortened from<BR>
"Wilhelm vonDsseldorf", my SCA name.<BR>
<BR>
But, when it comes to Boy-Howdy misspellings, just look at any of the<BR>
invented terms in Traveller. I'll just list a few I've seen on the TNL over<BR>
the last 5 years for Zhodani and then for Vargr:<BR>
	Zodani, Zohdani, Zhodane, Zhodanee, Zodane<BR>
	Varger, Vrgr, Vager, Vargre, Vargyr. Space-wolves, Pirates...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:37:42 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Name mangling<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> Consider my name. Leonard Erickson.<BR>
> <BR>
> I've only seen two ways to spell my first name:<BR>
>         Leonard<BR>
>         Lenard<BR>
> Though far too many people want to call me "Leo", "Len", "Leon", and<BR>
> <grr> "Lenny".<BR>
> <BR>
> My *last* name on the other hand....<BR>
>         Ericsen         Ericson<BR>
>         Eriksen         Erikson<BR>
>         Ericksen        Erickson<BR>
>         Ericssen        Ericsson<BR>
>         Erikssen        Eriksson<BR>
>         Erickssen       Ericksson<BR>
> <BR>
> Or in "shorthand": Eri[c|ck|k][s|ss][e|o]n<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm amazed I see as *few* misspellings of my name as I do.<BR>
<BR>
My family keeps, on the inside of a coat closet door, a collection <BR>
of envelopes addressed to various of us Bornschlegels with various<BR>
manglings of the spelling of our last name. It's a hard name. <BR>
<BR>
There's Bornochbagels and Bungleshoagels and Bonkschwitses and <BR>
of course, there's my sister, "Mr. K. Bomschlegel".<BR>
<BR>
With all of that, I don't mind so much when people get my last <BR>
name wrong. It drives me NUTS, however, when people put one "L" on<BR>
my first name when I either spell it for them or when they're <BR>
copying from a printed reference with two Ls. <BR>
<BR>
I finally found the one Russell who spells his name Russel. I wanted<BR>
to punch him. :)<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell Brongleforglemargleglummerheinrichlorfelschlegel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:46:33 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Social Impact Statements<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:25:04 -0500 (EST), Black ICE<BR>
<wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Or worse, you get the Lizards from Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar"<BR>
>tetralogy-plus- one.  IMHO, those critters make the Vilani look like<BR>
>bomb-throwing anarchists.<BR>
<BR>
Plus two, now - Colonization II, "Down to Earth" is at your<BR>
friendly neighborhood bookmonger. I'll be picking my copy up from<BR>
Mr. Barnes and his partner this weekend.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:46:36 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Social Impact Statements<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:21:06 -0500 (EST), "Josh W. Spencer"<BR>
<macmanjws@earthlink.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Black ICE wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>> Or worse, you get the Lizards from Harry Turtledove's "Worldwar"<BR>
>> tetralogy-plus- one.  IMHO, those critters make the Vilani look like<BR>
>> bomb-throwing anarchists.<BR>
 <BR>
>Except when they get their snouts in the ginger, then they want to copulate<BR>
>all over the place, and then NOTHING gets done!!!! :) :)<BR>
>Did the Vilani have that sort of a problem when they first came into contact<BR>
>with Terran humaniti?<BR>
<BR>
Hey, get it right - for lizard males, it's psychoactive, much<BR>
like crack.  For lizard females, it induces physiological<BR>
responses indistinguishable from estrus, including pheromone<BR>
release - and _that_ is what causes the corresponding response in<BR>
the males.<BR>
<BR>
>btw...Turtledove's "Worldwar" series kicks a**!<BR>
<BR>
Damn straight!<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:27:00 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:59:00, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:38 AM 2/11/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> >> People we need to get grip here.  We are only talking about $15.00 for a<BR>
> >> PREMIUM service. Cut out the jelly donuts for a month and it's a done<BR>
> >deal.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Some of us *love* our jelly donuts. In fact, we of the Jellyian Protectorate<BR>
> >take offense to this rearranging of priorities, and declare war on you<BR>
> >Harrisians.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ich bin ein berliner.<BR>
<BR>
Nice try, Doug, but I finished my coffee about ten minutes ago.  My<BR>
keyboard remains intact!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Oxymoron: Whole Half.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:15:27 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
<BR>
LOL!!!!  Yeah, I forgot to mention the intermittant part.<BR>
<BR>
In other news, I picked up a cheapie video capture system, so I *should*<BR>
have .mpg's posted some time this weekend!!!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 11:59 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 08:36 PM 2/10/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> ><snip of Mark & others, with Mark writing the below><BR>
> >BTW, I *know* GPMG-type belt-fed can knock me down with recoil if<BR>
> >I'm not properly braced.  Ask Jesse DeGraff and/or Doug Berry.<BR>
> >They've seen me shoot my HK-21 off-hand. :^)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Of course the, what, 1,200rpm cyclic rate of that particular<BR>
> HK21 might have<BR>
> >something to do with it, eh Mark?  :)<BR>
><BR>
> Well, what I saw was Mark firing this way:<BR>
><BR>
> ratta-ratta-ratta-*click*<BR>
><BR>
> Mark: curses<BR>
><BR>
> ratta-*click*<BR>
><BR>
> Mark: pulls out tools, starts working on weapon.<BR>
><BR>
> ratta-ratta-ratta-ratta. finishes belt.<BR>
><BR>
> Mark: pulls out revolver and does a credible job of firing it on<BR>
> full auto.<BR>
><BR>
> >Jesse<BR>
> >p.s.  And yes, that gun WOULD Mark knock over, and that's no easy feat!<BR>
> >Check out<BR>
> >http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/shooting/winter_99-shoot.htm and<BR>
> >you'll see what I mean.  Pics of Mark Cook, Doug Berry, and myself are<BR>
> >there.<BR>
><BR>
> Luckily nobody took a picture of me firing the G3. Last I had fired a<BR>
> 7.62mm on full auto I was about 50 lbs. heavier.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:32:08 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Robot Economics<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:44:46 -0500<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>Subject: RE: robot economics<BR>
><BR>
>DaveShayne writes:<BR>
><snipped><BR>
>>In short. Saturation of the economy with robotics will<BR>
>>lead to inevitable economic imballances leading to<BR>
>>the demise of the Imperial Megacorps.<BR>
><snipped><BR>
><BR>
> You are crediting the megacorps with a lot of wisdom and<BR>
> forsight, not to mention goodwill.  It would be awfully<BR>
> tempting to have a few secret planets full of robots<BR>
> generating cheap goods for export.<BR>
><BR>
>Peez<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I am crediting the Megacorps with the ability to think<BR>
long term. Considering that - as I didn't make clear - the<BR>
megacorp conspiracy I describe is an attempt to hold onto<BR>
relative power by deliberately suppressing technology that<BR>
would result in a cornucopia of plenty for all I wouldn't credit<BR>
them with wisdom. And certainly not with goodwill.<BR>
<BR>
The occasional application of robotics would be allowed by<BR>
this unilluminated cabbal but the minute a planet or two converts<BR>
over to robot economies the Religious Dictatorships would<BR>
mysteriously come into power perhaps? The -2 TL adjustment<BR>
would put a stop to the heathen machine minds PDQ I should<BR>
think.<BR>
<BR>
YTUMV and all that<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vaca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
  - Bart Caeser<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:20:43 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Robot Economics<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:11:38 +0000<BR>
>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1893<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>An alternate analysis suggests that wage levels will fall in jobs<BR>
>replaced by robots until people can get jobs again.<BR>
><BR>
>Why can wages fall? Well, as you said above, the robots just made<BR>
>everything cheaper so you don't need as much money to buy stuff.<BR>
<BR>
True. Wages offered by companies to human labor will fall<BR>
to the cost of robot labor. Which is effectively slavery. (Remember<BR>
in an environment with robotic manufacturing whenever you<BR>
need more workers you just build more.)<BR>
<BR>
The cost to manufacture anything in a robotic society will<BR>
be the costs of the energy used in producing that product.<BR>
This is true of generic widgets as well as the robots<BR>
required in the process of manufacturing. The Imperium<BR>
has cheep fusion energy (once the containment or whatever<BR>
on the fussion reactor is created all you have to do is keep<BR>
shoveling LHyd into the reactor and however initially expensive<BR>
the fusion plant is it will be virtually free energy.)<BR>
<BR>
In order for Humans(or other sophonts) to compete against<BR>
robots they will need to offer a wage lower than the cost of the<BR>
LHyd required to build and power the robots used in the same<BR>
manufacturing process. On most planets this will be free (just<BR>
dip into the ocean, the fusion plant can crack the water.)<BR>
On desert worlds the cost of the LHyd will be more expensive<BR>
but these are a distinct minority of planets. Another complication<BR>
will be low density worlds(less metals in crust).<BR>
But both of these world types are rare and ballanced out by<BR>
other worlds which are blessed by preponderances of these<BR>
materials.<BR>
<BR>
So the competetive wage of humans versus robots is Cr. 0.00<BR>
per local duration of time. IE slavery.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>On most Imperial worlds, land prices are cheap - judging by<BR>
>available space per head.<BR>
><BR>
>Besides, this just enables people to setup .com businesses without<BR>
>having to hire a large staff - just get the venture capitalists<BR>
>to pay the deposits on your robots - voila, instant business,<BR>
>complete with trained staff. Since each person can now do more<BR>
>because their actions are multiplied by the robots, effective<BR>
>personal wealth is much higher.<BR>
<BR>
For the  incredibly small number of people with access to capital,<BR>
a good Idea, and the luck to have a product sufficiently new or<BR>
different to result in an economically viable product this is true.<BR>
Most people will fail on this test somewhere. (Unless the sources<BR>
of capital {in this instance the manufacturing Megacorps} are willing<BR>
to hand out money to anybody who asks for it which is:<BR>
  A. not likely considering the motivations of the megacorps.<BR>
  B. functionally the same as the sociallism I was talking about<BR>
in the previous post.)<BR>
<BR>
Admittedly unless/untill true AI comes into existance Some jobs<BR>
will be left for humans: scientists, artists, engineers, senior<BR>
administrators, etc. the people who create and supervise.<BR>
Leaving out everybody else from employment. Everybody else<BR>
is the vast majority of people.<BR>
<BR>
Which will result in different social states than the Imperium.<BR>
  1) A slave society in which people and robots work side<BR>
by side for the betterment of a priveledged few.<BR>
  2) A Butlerian Jihad where the disenfranchised smash all<BR>
of the thinknig machines. (Thank you Frank Herbert.)<BR>
  3) A state of plenty with everybody requisitioning whatever<BR>
they desire from the robot factories while an elite few<BR>
do all the thinking/creating jobs out of sheer boredom.<BR>
  4) A militarist state with all of the surplus sophont labour<BR>
sent out to conquer the stars.<BR>
<BR>
Since cheep energy(fusion) plus unlimited labor(robotics)<BR>
do away with scarcity(Raw materials are abundant to the<BR>
point of unlimited availability in most planetary systems)<BR>
the current economic models will not function to describe<BR>
the society. When wish becomes reality supply always<BR>
equals demand and the market clears without transfer<BR>
of money. I don't think capitalists would enjoy becoming<BR>
obsolete and I don't see labor prefering to starve, so<BR>
I don't see robotics being allowed a large place in the<BR>
economy of the Imperium. Butlers for the ultra-rich?<BR>
Sure. The occasional extreme hazard worker? sure.<BR>
Everyday appliance? no.<BR>
<BR>
>So you get back to Traveller, only now your five PCs are running<BR>
>a 50kdT ship full of robot crew, more like the board of a corporation.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well My take on this is that you wind up with a virtually free ship that<BR>
the PC's wander around in for a lark. Which is not the traveller<BR>
universe I know. Which requires some social explanation for<BR>
why capable robots and classical economics co-exist.<BR>
<BR>
Another handwave to use if you don't like the Megacorp conspiracy<BR>
theory is that any robot capable of replacing a human being in any<BR>
of the economically usefull jobs would also be able to strike for<BR>
wages and safer working conditions. And what megacorp is<BR>
gonna spend MCr on artificial union recruits when they can just hire<BR>
the Flesh kind and have the same disadvantages?<BR>
<BR>
So anyway Phil, that's the way I see it. I may have some details wrong<BR>
but the central thesis is I think sound. Robots=infinite supply=not<BR>
economics<BR>
as we know it.<BR>
<BR>
as usual YTUMV<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vaca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
  - Bart Caeser<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:33:52 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
>The Empress Wave was a part of Traveller: The New Era. Predates G:T and<BR>
>AR:1 by several years.<BR>
><BR>
>Since G:T operates in an alternate history where the whole Rebellion/Virus<BR>
>thing doesn't happen, it is safe to assume that the Empress Wave might also<BR>
>have been written out of the plotline.<BR>
<BR>
You missed my original post, which was:<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
"Perhaps we'll still get the chance. Somewhere in G:T it says<BR>
 that, although the assassination of Strephon never happened,<BR>
 that the Emperor was absent from Capital at the same time as<BR>
 during the MT storyline and for the same reason. As I recall<BR>
 Strephon was at Longbow II getting data on the Empress Wave.<BR>
 So maybe...."<BR>
<BR>
Which seemed to indicate that the Empress Wave will eventually show up in<BR>
G:T.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:29:26 -0800<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm.  While I am deeply curious as to what GDW had  planned  for<BR>
> the Empress Wave, I do have a problem with it:  Since it  travels<BR>
> at lightspeed at takes 3.26 years to  cross  a  hex.<BR>
<BR>
Another problem:<BR>
<BR>
Strephon and the Imperium find out about the Wave through Longbow<BR>
observations, done with light, and with psionic impressions that are<BR>
somehow being carried by the light.<BR>
<BR>
The Wave travels at lightspeed, so it's travelling forward as fast as signals<BR>
Longbow is intercepting. The Longbow station(s) shouldn't have seen the<BR>
wave in advance at all; they should have recieved the signals showing<BR>
what it did to the Zhodani at the same time it arrived at the station.<BR>
(Depending on the exact geometry - if the Wave is a straight line and the<BR>
LB stations are "off axis" they'll get some advance<BR>
notice, but not much.) (I think there were foreward "Longbow" substations,<BR>
but they have the same problem...)<BR>
<BR>
Very hard to make things travelling at lightspeed work like this. It would<BR>
work much better if the Wave was travelling at (say) Jump-1 speed,<BR>
and the information about it was either pure psi (which presumably<BR>
travels FTL) or from foreward stations that it actually hit...<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:34:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Consider my name. Leonard Erickson.<BR>
>><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
>>Or in "shorthand": Eri[c|ck|k][s|ss][e|o]n<BR>
>><BR>
>>I'm amazed I see as *few* misspellings of my name as I do.<BR>
>><BR>
> My apologies for my own and other dyslexic/dystypographic/dysgraphic<BR>
> errors. Does "Shadow" work? <GD&R><BR>
<BR>
Actually, I almost never see it mispelled online.<BR>
<BR>
> Similarly, I've seen a number of people mis-spell my name by<BR>
> substituing a different first letter, or assuming that my "Wil" {note<BR>
> only one L} is shortened from William, and "Will" is fine... Wil is<BR>
> shortened from "Wilhelm vonD=FCsseldorf", my SCA name.<BR>
<BR>
Ah! Greetings, milord Wilhelm. I am Erik inn kengr...<BR>
<BR>
> But, when it comes to Boy-Howdy misspellings, just look at any of the<BR>
> invented terms in Traveller. I'll just list a few I've seen on the<BR>
> TNL over the last 5 years for Zhodani and then for Vargr:<BR>
>         Zodani, Zohdani, Zhodane, Zhodanee, Zodane<BR>
>         Varger, Vrgr, Vager, Vargre, Vargyr. Space-wolves, Pirates...<BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't that be T*M*L? :-)<BR>
<BR>
And "Zhodane" is the name of the Zhodani homeworld. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:40:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Online<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> There are *three* kinds of "CD" media:<BR>
>><BR>
>> 1. Factory pressed. *NO* drive can create these.<BR>
>> 2. WORM. These can be written to (once) by the right kind of drive.<BR>
>> 3. CD-r/w. These can be written to *and modified* by the right type of<BR>
>>    drive.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually there's four kinds, there's a difference between CD-Rs and CD-RWs<BR>
><BR>
> You can't modify a CD-R once written to, even in a CD-RW drive, though you<BR>
> can 'hide' already written tracks and files by removing them from the<BR>
> "directory" thus modifying the 'appearance' of the CD<BR>
<BR>
Which makes them "WORM" (Write-Once, Read Many) media. Type 2.<BR>
<BR>
> CD-RWs actually allow you to re-use already used space.<BR>
<BR>
Which is type 3.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:19:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> The Zhodani may or may not have done something on their Core<BR>
>> expeditions...it's entirely possible that they merely ran into it and<BR>
>> and are trying to study it and it's effects, hence the rationale for the<BR>
>> expeditions...<BR>
><BR>
> The Zhodani have been doing their expeditions to the core for quite a while<BR>
> now. I seem to recall that they were planning another (maybe the seventh?)<BR>
> around the time of the 1100 era. I am almost totally unfamilliar with the<BR>
> TNE setting. Did they launch another expedition by that time?<BR>
><BR>
> I vaguely recall that the Empress Wave was coming from the center of the<BR>
> galaxy. Is that the case? If it is, it's probably not caused by the Zhodani.<BR>
> I don't think anything can survive in the galactic core, can it?<BR>
<BR>
Let's just say that anything that can survive in the core region isn't<BR>
going to notice spinal mount PAW fire.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there's a *lot* of perfectly usable space outside the core,<BR>
but well to coreward of even the Zhodani Core expeditions.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:56:13 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was RE: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 03:02 PM 2/11/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >That's my point exactly, which I mention on occasion ever since I've<BR>
> >heard of the Empress Wave. Let's face it, if the EW is supposed to<BR>
...<BR>
> Since G:T operates in an alternate history where the whole Rebellion/Virus<BR>
> thing doesn't happen, it is safe to assume that the Empress Wave might also<BR>
> have been writen out of the plotline.<BR>
<BR>
I hope so.  I really didn't like the idea.  <BR>
<BR>
I had some of the inside story from talking to Dave Nilsen back when TNE<BR>
was coming out.  The Empress Wave was destroying Zhodani society by<BR>
destroying the power the noble class held through their use of<BR>
psionics.  This led to the Zhodani civil war and the exodus of Zhodani<BR>
refugees.  Strephon had become obsessed by his dream of the woman<BR>
dressed in black that is pictured on the cover of the TNE rules (aka<BR>
"The Chick in Black," a phrased coined by Steve Bryant).  One sideline<BR>
that was never developed is that the Empress Wave was changing the<BR>
nature of jump space.  Dave mentioned that GDW was thinking about<BR>
changing the nature of jumpspace to be more like the hyperspace in<BR>
Babylon 5 (so ships could manuever and fight in jumpspace).  I never<BR>
heard any other mention of changes to the nature of jumpspace so this is<BR>
just a bit of Traveller/GDW trivia.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, this is just some of the perspective I picked up from my days of<BR>
assiciating with GDW and the TNE development.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:50:17 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:37 PM 2/11/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
>There is an expanding wavefront moving through normal space, apparently<BR>
>centered somewhere coreward of the 3i, perhaps as far as the galactic<BR>
>core itself, that affect people, particularly psionics.<BR>
><BR>
>What it seems to do is enhance the psionic abilities of normal<BR>
>non-psions greatly. To already psionically adept people, it seems to<BR>
>have a far harsher affect: it drives them mad.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>beyond that no one knows what it is, but istr, this was what Strephon<BR>
>was finding out about when he was off surreptitiously visinting Longbow<BR>
>II.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
How would Longbow II detect the Empress Wave though? IIRC, Longbow II is<BR>
basicly just an <BR>
optical telescope array several sectors across. If the Empress Wave is<BR>
moving at c, then Longbow will first see it when the first Longbow element<BR>
gets hits by the wave.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>-- <BR>
>Bruce Johnson<BR>
>University of Arizona<BR>
>College of Pharmacy<BR>
>Information Technology Group<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1902<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1903</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/12/00 6:12:25 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 12 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1903<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re  Surplus Economies (Was robotics)<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Terraforming<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1902<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: CDROM Storage<BR>
RE: Ranks<BR>
Re: Empress Wave<BR>
Re: Day length and clock conversions<BR>
Re: Empress Wave<BR>
RE: Robots<BR>
The dreaded storage monster strikes again.<BR>
"Zhodane" (was Re: FYI)<BR>
re: Traveller TV show?<BR>
Re: Terraforming<BR>
Re: OT: Name mangling<BR>
RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now? <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:02:08 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> around the time of the 1100 era. I am almost totally unfamilliar with the<BR>
> TNE setting. Did they launch another expedition by that time?<BR>
> <BR>
> I vaguely recall that the Empress Wave was coming from the center of the<BR>
> galaxy. Is that the case? If it is, it's probably not caused by the Zhodani.<BR>
> I don't think anything can survive in the galactic core, can it?<BR>
<BR>
Hi Luther,<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, the Empress Wave was coming from the center of the galaxy<BR>
and was detected by the Longbow Expeditions.  <BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:20:18 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re  Surplus Economies (Was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
>Since cheep energy(fusion) plus unlimited labor(robotics)<BR>
>do away with scarcity(Raw materials are abundant to the<BR>
>point of unlimited availability in most planetary systems)<BR>
>the current economic models will not function to describe<BR>
>the society. When wish becomes reality supply always<BR>
>equals demand and the market clears without transfer<BR>
>of money. I don't think capitalists would enjoy becoming<BR>
>obsolete and I don't see labor prefering to starve, so<BR>
>I don't see robotics being allowed a large place in the<BR>
>economy of the Imperium. Butlers for the ultra-rich?<BR>
>Sure. The occasional extreme hazard worker? sure.<BR>
>Everyday appliance? no.<BR>
<BR>
What you wind up with in a post-robotic-factory world is an economy driven<BR>
by what isn't in surplus. In many worlds, this will wind up being land or<BR>
food; maybe both. Entertainment, possibly. In Star Trek, capitalism<BR>
flourishes, not so much in base needs, but in housing, education,<BR>
entertainment, and recreation, plus the few things replicator technology<BR>
can't produce. So, with abundant power sources, the economy becomes one<BR>
driven by the costs of producing the raw materials not replicateable. In<BR>
short, driven by the cost of Hydrogen and the demand for antimatter,<BR>
dilithium, and educational opportunity. People still work, but work not for<BR>
basic needs; they work for access to extra replicator rations, holodeck<BR>
time, fuel (or the power produced from fuel) (which may be the basis of the<BR>
Credit), etc. In short, you work in exchange for the products of human<BR>
labor... inventions, education, in-person performances, original artworks,<BR>
non-replicated items. Star Trek, due to the energy demand, uses replicators<BR>
for basic needs not met by local non-energy intensive methods; people work<BR>
for self-betterment, and becuase they want to get access to services.<BR>
<BR>
It may not be recognizeable, but some form of transactional analysis will<BR>
be prevalent.<BR>
<BR>
Bck to Traveller, you've got robotic factories, farming, mining, etc.,<BR>
cheap power for running the mines and factories. The people who created the<BR>
factories will charge something for access to their products. Not of need<BR>
currency, but perhaps like BBS's used to do: you recieve 30 minute access<BR>
per day, and the more you post the more time you are allowed. So, if you<BR>
want 45 minutes, and posting is a 5 minutes per K increase, you post 3 k of<BR>
appropriate posts... ideas become a currency of access to others ideas.<BR>
<BR>
Everywhere there has been an unmet need of any kind, some form of<BR>
transactional analysis has found some basis for an economy, even if said<BR>
currency is sexual.<BR>
<BR>
Let us take prisons. The needs are sexual gratification, privacy, safety<BR>
from abuse, escape, and entertainment; nicotene often is used by prisoners,<BR>
so that addiction feeds the economy, too. Individuals trade items for other<BR>
items, or services (like safety or sexual gratification), or for less<BR>
tangible ones, like subservience and/or loyalty. All the BASIC needs (Food,<BR>
water, clothing) are met. Safety from the others is a commodity offered by<BR>
the most dangerous in exchange for other desired they have. Boom, you have<BR>
an economy, where the currency consists of sexually servicing others for<BR>
protection from them and others like them.<BR>
<BR>
Boredom will be an issue; studies indicate crime is linked to boredom, to a<BR>
great degree - humans are intrinsically wired for curiosity and adventure,<BR>
to a point. So in the hypothetical communal robotic industry, the basic<BR>
demand is safety, entertainment, and activity. The law may REQUIRE you to<BR>
have some form of extra-domocile activity, and reward contributions to<BR>
society with better housing. Again, you have a currency. If the currency fo<BR>
society is not the currency of the government, you also have multiple<BR>
separate economies, and encourage a black market. So you might wind up with<BR>
odd transactions as a base, but there will be transactions at work.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:38:08 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
On 02/11/00 at 01:37 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> > Could someone please contace me off-list and explain what the "Empress Wave"<BR>
>> > is? All I can figure out is that it must be something the Zhodani contacted<BR>
>> > coreward that should not have been awakened.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> Do it on list.  I haven't played Traveller since the mid 80's<BR>
>> unfortunately, and I'd like to know, too.<BR>
<BR>
>Quick synopsis:<BR>
<BR>
>The Zhodani may or may not have done something on their Core<BR>
>expeditions...it's entirely possible that they merely ran into it and and<BR>
>are trying to study it and it's effects, hence the rationale for the<BR>
>expeditions...<BR>
<BR>
>There is an expanding wavefront moving through normal space, apparently<BR>
>centered somewhere coreward of the 3i, perhaps as far as the galactic<BR>
>core itself, that affect people, particularly psionics.<BR>
<BR>
There's debate about where this wavefront originates from, the core<BR>
or just from the direction of the core.  Either way it should have<BR>
already passed through a lot of Vargr space by 1116, too.<BR>
<BR>
>What it seems to do is enhance the psionic abilities of normal non-psions<BR>
>greatly. To already psionically adept people, it seems to have a far<BR>
>harsher affect: it drives them mad.<BR>
<BR>
That's the general opinion, but in who, how much, when and for how<BR>
long isn't known.  It could just as easily snuff out psionic<BR>
ability.  Burn out the Zhodani psionic nobles..what would *that* do<BR>
their ability to rule? To Zhodani culture in general?<BR>
<BR>
>The initial wavefront manifests itself to everyone as the image of a<BR>
>regal woman dressed in black (the Woman is on the cover of the TNE<BR>
>manual, looking like Morticia wearing a crown) after the wave front<BR>
>passes, psionics works differently.<BR>
<BR>
To everyone?  I'm not sure if that's true...it did to Strephon, but<BR>
maybe others see other things.  In fact, I'd rather that it have<BR>
different effects on everyone, some sort of psionic vision distorted<BR>
by the individual's hopes and fears.  We all know that visions are<BR>
often represented symbolically...right?  Was, perhaps, the Dark<BR>
Queen a symbol of doom, of the death and destruction Strephon was<BR>
foreseeing from events taking place back on Capital?<BR>
<BR>
>This was the equivalent of Virus to the Zhodani, and caused as enormous<BR>
>upheaval in their society.<BR>
<BR>
And that's the real skinny.  <g> This was the deus ex mechania to<BR>
bring the Zhodani down at the same time Virus brings the Imperium<BR>
down.<BR>
<BR>
>It's unknown what this would do to the remnants of the 3I, given their<BR>
>deep distrust and loathing of psionics.<BR>
<BR>
As to where this all goes...well there has been talk of "travelling<BR>
psionic knights" wandering amid the ruins for a thousand years.<BR>
Reminds me of travelling circus in a Felini flick.  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:59:47 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
On 02/11/00 at 07:50 PM,  Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> said:<BR>
<BR>
>How would Longbow II detect the Empress Wave though?  IIRC, Longbow<BR>
>II is basicly just an optical telescope array several sectors<BR>
>across.  If the Empress Wave is moving at c, then Longbow will<BR>
>first see it when the first Longbow element gets hits by the wave.<BR>
<BR>
For public consuption, Longbow II was just an optical telecopic<BR>
array.  Privately...who's to say there wasn't some psionic<BR>
"research" going on too?  <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:24:10 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:36:22 -0500<BR>
 From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
 Subject: RE: Terraforming<BR>
 <BR>
    A thermocline is a zone of large temperature change over a<BR>
    short distance, usually between zones with relatively<BR>
    homogenous temperatures.  They are found in temperate lakes<BR>
    during the summer and winter, but I have never heard of one<BR>
    in the atmosphere.  Can someone help us out here? >><BR>
<BR>
You _have_heard of one before, just not by that name. Think 'warm front' and <BR>
'cold front'. Most especially when one type of front overruns another <BR>
("occluded front'?). On the weather maps this is usually indicated by the <BR>
dotted line leading to the red or blue lines indicating the other fronts. <BR>
<BR>
Sory if I'm not being real clear about this. I'm having to dredge up some <BR>
college lessons from fifteen years back I thought I didn't need any more.<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:26:03 -0700<BR>
From: Glenn St-Germain <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1902<BR>
<BR>
>With all of that, I don't mind so much when people get my last <BR>
>name wrong. It drives me NUTS, however, when people put one "L" on<BR>
>my first name when I either spell it for them or when they're <BR>
>copying from a printed reference with two Ls. <BR>
<BR>
I have a similar problem with my first name -- it's properly rendered <BR>
with two N's -- "Glenn". My boss, for whom I have been working for a<BR>
year-and-a-half, continues to write it with one N, even though my<BR>
timesheets are printed with two Ns, as are my business cards, my desk<BR>
nameplate, and so on. <BR>
<BR>
But if you want to talk about mangled names -- a friend of mine used to<BR>
work for the Edmonton Journal, one of Edmonton's two daily newspapers. He<BR>
recalls the time that the mailroom received mail for a "Mr. Ed Journal"...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:36:30 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/11/00 10:52:18 AM Central Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:08:01<BR>
 From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
 Subject: Re: Military-Government mottos (was-D-Berry - Sorry off TML)<BR>
 <BR>
  >Has any anyone thought of what the mottos of various units or orginizations<BR>
 >in the Imperium or the Solomani empire might be<BR>
 <BR>
 The Imperial Marine Force: "The Emperor's Sword"<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I just can't see the Marines chosing any slogan other than "Semper <BR>
Fidelis." Not because the wee little jarheads can't learn any more latin, but <BR>
because they're too damn stubborn to want to learn anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester (ex-snipe)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:47:27 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CDROM Storage<BR>
<BR>
I heard about that too, but as yet none of my few thousand music CDs has had<BR>
any problems and some I bought as early as 1987.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 3:17 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: CDROM Storage<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> There was apparently a problem with some music CDs some years back. The<BR>
> plastic started seperating from the aluminum, which rendered them<BR>
> unreadable.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:07:01 +1300<BR>
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)<BR>
Subject: RE: Ranks<BR>
<BR>
In TML 1897, Frankie wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>Well, I have served with a Warrant Officer by the name of Bates, a baggie<BR>
>whose name was >Richard Head, and a young navy ensign with the name Peter<BR>
>Niss.<BR>
><BR>
>Frankie<BR>
<BR>
You forgot Johnathon Parts, RNZIR (who was at Burnham while we were at<BR>
Wigram) and SGT Wayne King.<BR>
<BR>
Richard<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:34:51 -0800<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
>Let's just say that anything that can survive in the core region isn't<BR>
>going to notice spinal mount PAW fire.<BR>
Actually, the core of our galaxy is a surprisingly placid place. The central<BR>
black hole seems remarkably un-energetic (inexplicably so, in fact); the star<BR>
density is high, but not dangerously so. I suppose the occasional<BR>
supernova will go off every few million years (although there are debates<BR>
about whether the core environment forms many high-mass stars to go<BR>
supernova.)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:42:14 -0500<BR>
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Day length and clock conversions<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Depending on the world, those might be treated like the metric<BR>
>> system is in the United States, useful in science,<BR>
>> engineering, and intersystem commerce, but awkward for<BR>
>> everyday use.<BR>
<BR>
>Remember, these places will have started out with the sol and<BR>
>dura as "special purpose" units and days/hours as the "common"<BR>
>units. And it's *real* unlikely that most time-related<BR>
>engineering units will get re-calculated.<BR>
<BR>
I had it the other way around. The sol and dura would be the<BR>
civil units particular to a given world, and would be used for<BR>
ordinary purposes such as telling the time of day and determining<BR>
business hours, work schedules, and so on. The standard units<BR>
would be awkward length for such ordinary activities, so in time they<BR>
would go out of common use among most planetary residents but would be kept<BR>
for scientific and engineering purposes and by spacefarers.<BR>
<BR>
>> Since the dura would usually be within a few percent of an<BR>
>> hour, some worlds would probably speak of "hours" to mean<BR>
>> their dura, and "minutes" and "seconds" to mean corresponding<BR>
>> local divisions.<BR>
<BR>
>Unlikely. Especially at the beginning. Because it's *way* to<BR>
>easy to get into trouble if "hour" means two different things.<BR>
<BR>
>"It says we've got 4 hours of fuel left..."<BR>
>"*Which* hour?"<BR>
<BR>
"The _standard_ hour, nitwit!" if in space, or<BR>
"OUR hour, idiot!" if a planetary resident. <BR>
<BR>
It's like asking how many days until Christmas. *Which* day?<BR>
Is that a mean solar day, a sidereal day, a civil day, a shopping day, <BR>
or what?  For an astronomer, it's *way* easy to get into trouble by using<BR>
the wrong one, but for most of us, these technical distinctions<BR>
are not important. <BR>
 <BR>
>You see, the whole *point* of duras being "duras" rather than<BR>
>"local hours" is to *avoid* that kind of troubler.<BR>
<BR>
I did say "some", because some worlds do maintain a proper<BR>
distinction. IMTU, Others do not, because I *want* that kind of<BR>
confusion to be possible.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, I think the most likely setup on *passenger* ships (as<BR>
>opposed to traders that occasionally carry passengers) would be<BR>
>for the ship's day to be set such that the time of day when you<BR>
>leave matches the local time of day t the port, and when you<BR>
>arrive, it does the same. This helps prevent the equivalent of<BR>
>"jet lag".<BR>
<BR>
But having the length of the ship's day vary substantially and in different<BR>
directions every two weeks or less is going to be hard on the<BR>
crew, especially if you get sol length ratios such as 2:3 or 3:5.<BR>
The less often you have to adapt to this kind of change, the<BR>
better. There are several different ways to get out of phase with<BR>
the day/night cycle at the point where passenges debark.  I'd<BR>
think the crew keeps a regular schedule, and it's part of<BR>
the steward's job to help the passengers adjust to clock shift.<BR>
On larger ships where you have several stewards who can rotate<BR>
shifts at need and where the passengers are separated from the<BR>
crew, this kind of thing would be more feasible than on your<BR>
usual free trader.<BR>
<BR>
>>      Another question to look at is whether time behaves<BR>
>> differently in jumpspace than in normal space, and if so, how<BR>
>> ships solve the problem of synchronizing their own time with<BR>
>> Imperial astrogation beacons and the like.<BR>
<BR>
>If it did behave differently enough to worry about, it'd affect<BR>
>aging rolls... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Not with variances up to a day or so and in either direction. On<BR>
the average, these would cancel out and not affect aging, but<BR>
they would make attempts to match phase of the day/night cycle<BR>
with the destination world mostly futile.<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:42:08 -0500<BR>
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson asked:<BR>
<BR>
>How would Longbow II detect the Empress Wave though? IIRC,<BR>
>Longbow II is basicly just an optical telescope array several<BR>
>sectors across. If the Empress Wave is moving at c, then Longbow<BR>
>will first see it when the first Longbow element<BR>
>gets hits by the wave.<BR>
<BR>
As part of the Longbow II project, the Imperium had a number of <BR>
observation stations deep to coreward, and couriers to report on<BR>
these observations. (Regency Sourcebook p. 82) A message from one<BR>
of these which indicated that two other stations had gone silent<BR>
was already three years old when Strephon was informed (Survival<BR>
Margin, p7.  Apparently some information about the wave, including the fact<BR>
that it seemed to have a psionic component, was also generated by these<BR>
studies.  Strephon sent Norris what information he had been able to salvage<BR>
(SM p 52-53), so the Regency was attempting to gather what<BR>
information it could.<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:00:44 -0600<BR>
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Robots<BR>
<BR>
<post trimmed for bandwidth><BR>
"Charles Prevatte" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>> Robotic Ships Crew Rule<BR>
>><BR>
>> The percentage of a ships crew, at a given TL [the lower of<BR>
>> ships computer or ships electronics TL when dealing with a<BR>
>> ship constructed at multiple TL's] that may be robotic is<BR>
>> limited to the percentage of robotic brain CPU's that may<BR>
>> be synaptic at that TL (round down). These percentages do<BR>
>> not include Ships troops and subordinate craft pilots,<BR>
>> but only ships crew.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Using Bk. 8 Robots "Synaptic Limits" table (p. 30)<BR>
>> we see:<BR>
>><BR>
>> TL    Reliable                Reliable<BR>
>>       Synaptic                Robotic Crew<BR>
>>       Percentage              Percentage<BR>
>><BR>
>> 12    10%                     10%<BR>
>> 13    15%                     15%<BR>
>> 14    25%                     25%<BR>
>> 15    50%                     50%<BR>
>> 16    60%                     60%<BR>
>> 17    85%                     85%<BR>
>> 18    95%                     95%<BR>
>><BR>
>> Therefore using canonical ship designs<BR>
>><BR>
>> Ship Type/Ship TL             Crew            Max Robot Crew<BR>
>><BR>
>> Scout Courier/TL 15           1               0<BR>
>> Free Trader/TL 15             4               2<BR>
>> Far Trader/TL 15              3               1<BR>
>> Merc Cruiser/TL 15            8               2<BR>
>> [MT Imperial Encyclopedia p. 78 - 85]<BR>
>><BR>
>> Azhanti High Lightning          395           98<BR>
>> Class Cruiser/TL 14<BR>
>> Tigress Dreadnaught/TL 15  4,054   2,027<BR>
>><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Once a problem has been diagnosed by a human technition there is little<BR>
<BR>
>reason that a bot could not replace the bad part for example.  This<BR>
take no<BR>
>volition.  It's simple automation.  A low level bot could make beds, do<BR>
the<BR>
>majority of the landery, mop, vacuume, and hundred of other drudge jobs<BR>
<BR>
>safely and efficently.<BR>
><BR>
>What they could not do would be deal with non routine situations<BR>
without<BR>
>direct human supervision.  A ship with a robot aided crew would be<BR>
cheap to<BR>
>run on a daily basis but have a great deal of trouble dealing with a<BR>
major<BR>
>unprogramed problem like a boarding action or hijack attempt.  The<BR>
'robot<BR>
>crew' would be in effect useless unless they were the expensive and<BR>
high<BR>
>tech autonomous types and in the end these cost much more than crew and<BR>
are<BR>
>harder to come by.<BR>
<snip><BR>
>Where robots could shine though is as a backup and force mutipliers for<BR>
a<BR>
>human crew.<BR>
<snip example><BR>
>This would only reduce the crew size slightly for all but large ships<BR>
for day to >day operations but it would greatly increase efficency of<BR>
the remaining crew.  >The effect would be very exponitial.  Small crews<BR>
would not get much smaller >but ships with 10 people in a position might<BR>
have only 3 people (one per shift) >and 12 robot helpers.<BR>
<BR>
Good so far, but let's add an Imperial Regulation for starship safety<BR>
for the non-routine situations. Requiring that the following positions<BR>
be filled with sentient crew: Captian, Chief Pilot, Astrogator, and<BR>
Chief Engineer.  This reg. plays against the "Free Trader" (PC), but who<BR>
cares the laws are made by/for the megacorps (directly or indirectly<BR>
depending on YTU). This reg. would not effect the megacorps as they use<BR>
bigger ships and the sentient percentage would still be more than the<BR>
required positions.  Add in regs from planets and merchant guilds<BR>
requiring the Chief Steward to be sentient if High Passages are offered,<BR>
and you require the majority of PC ships to be light on robots even at<BR>
TL15.<BR>
<BR>
Charles R Hensley<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:34:19 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: The dreaded storage monster strikes again.<BR>
<BR>
Would some kind soul please mail me the Muzzle velocity and round weight<BR>
for both the Accellerator Rifle and the ARL.<BR>
<BR>
My LBB's are in deep storage ( Meaning I haven't figured out which box<BR>
they are in. )<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 04:08:53 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: "Zhodane" (was Re: FYI)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) types<BR>
<BR>
>> But, when it comes to Boy-Howdy misspellings, just look at any of the<BR>
>> invented terms in Traveller. I'll just list a few I've seen on the<BR>
>> TNL over the last 5 years for Zhodani and then for Vargr:<BR>
>>         Zodani, Zohdani, Zhodane, Zhodanee, Zodane<BR>
>>         Varger, Vrgr, Vager, Vargre, Vargyr. Space-wolves, Pirates...<BR>
><BR>
>Shouldn't that be T*M*L? :-)<BR>
><BR>
>And "Zhodane" is the name of the Zhodani homeworld. <BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 Not quite. It's the Imperial slang for both the Zhodani home/capitolworld <BR>
(real name "Zhdant" by the way) and Zhodani space in general. The old GDW <BR>
adventure "Expedition to Zhodane" could hardly be visiting a world some 70 <BR>
parsecs (2+ SECTORS width) inside the Consulate, as this would have involved <BR>
a truly epic amount of luck, determination, and sneakery.<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet<BR>
(old Zhodani Sector Analyst for HIWG, Retired)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:20:21 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: re: Traveller TV show?<BR>
<BR>
At 19:45 11.02.00 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>It's on P3 of GT:BTC and P4 of GT:StarMercs. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Oops. Sorry. Too lazy to look it up. ;)<BR>
<BR>
>Try http://www.highbridgepress.com/page3.html<BR>
<BR>
Okay,but there's no info whatsoever about a Traveller TV show project. <BR>
So let me repeat it: Does anyone know what kind of TV show that is to be,<BR>
if it is anything more than a rumor, etc.?<BR>
<BR>
After all, this might be _the_ way to introduce new fans...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:12:58 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
> From: Leonard Erickson<BR>
> Well, part of the trick is that some things don't take that long. And<BR>
> it's possible to find "semi-suitable" planets. For example, a<BR>
> *wonderful* colony site would be a planet where life has gotten to the<BR>
> complex organism stage, but plants are only just starting to colonize<BR>
> land. You'd have a breathable atmosphere, but could safely start<BR>
> turning rock and sand into soil without worrying much about native<BR>
> life.<BR>
...<BR>
> This might explain those "garden worlds" with low populations. They are<BR>
> *slowly* managing to expand their farmlands enough to support the<BR>
> population, while trying to keep the native ecology out of the farm<BR>
> areas.  <BR>
<BR>
Keeping native and terrestrial _microbiologies_ apart would be impossible<BR>
in the long run in this situation.  That means that anything the colonies<BR>
export would be at least potentially contaminated.  <BR>
<BR>
> Also, if you have more than just "The Ancients" as civilizations that<BR>
> rose and then disappeared before Humaniti took to the stars, then we<BR>
> may find planets *they* terraformed, or partially terraformed.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the point of this exercise is to find something that "works", rather<BR>
than to keep finding reasons why thing don't work.  I wasn't going to use<BR>
any alien civilisations, but I may have to resort to this.  It's no worse<BR>
than the Ancients handwave in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there is the question as to why the worlds they terraformed are<BR>
_human_ habitable, and why they seeded these worlds with _lifeforms from<BR>
Earth_.<BR>
<BR>
I know the answer.  Do you?  <BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 07:06:17 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Name mangling<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> With all of that, I don't mind so much when people get my last <BR>
> name wrong. It drives me NUTS, however, when people put one "L" on<BR>
> my first name when I either spell it for them or when they're <BR>
> copying from a printed reference with two Ls. <BR>
> <BR>
> I finally found the one Russell who spells his name Russel. I wanted<BR>
> to punch him. :)<BR>
> <BR>
> -Russell Brongleforglemargleglummerheinrichlorfelschlegel<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
LOL! My wife Alison has the opposite problem, in that people invariably<BR>
spell it Allison, which is, more typically, the way the _boy's_ name is<BR>
spelled. <BR>
<BR>
We won't even get into her maiden name, 'Kirkconnell', a perfectly fine,<BR>
easy to spell and remember Scottish name ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:11:36 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now? <BR>
<BR>
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
><BR>
> >One of the nastiest (that has an Ob Trav) was the sicko with mind control<BR>
> >powers who took over a road-side diner. The characters were disgusted with<BR>
> >what he'd done with the other people in the diner, especially the<BR>
> >waitresses,<BR>
> <BR>
> Shades of John Dee in Gaiman's "The Sandman: Preludes and Nocturnes"?<BR>
<BR>
That's exactly what I thought of... of course, it was a lot worse when<BR>
Dee took over the lady doing the children's puppet show on tv...<BR>
<BR>
I wonder how many Sandman stories could be turned into Traveller adventures?<BR>
_That_ would be a stretch.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1903<BR>
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1903<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1904</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/12/00 10:59:40 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 12 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1904<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Empress Wave<BR>
Re: Word Generators<BR>
The Empress Wave in Regina<BR>
Total Confusion Gaming Convention<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Re: Robots<BR>
Re: Charismatic Oligarchy...<BR>
Re: Robots (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1893)<BR>
Re:  Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Empress Wave<BR>
Re:  robot economics<BR>
Re: World Generation System Example on-line <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Spacing <BR>
Re: Empress Wave<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies (Was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:27:07 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/11/00 3:01:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>  > What it seems to do is enhance the psionic abilities of normal<BR>
>  > non-psions greatly. To already psionically adept people, it seems to<BR>
>  > have a far harsher affect: it drives them mad.<BR>
>  > <BR>
>  Tres Lovecrafty.  Cool.  But not very Traveller-feeling...<BR>
<BR>
Actually more Star Warish in the end. A new Imperium gets born with Psionic <BR>
Knights running around (See TNE-RCES list archives for a more complete <BR>
explanation of the Empress Wave and some of the results; Also on the HIWG-CD <BR>
- - plug :) ).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:47:48 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Word Generators<BR>
<BR>
>At 22:09 -0500 10/2/00, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:<BR>
>>The BITS website has two Mac products that also generate words. One is a<BR>
>>HyperCard stack (called MegaLinguist), the other is the application<BR>
>>Imperial Grand Survey.<BR>
><BR>
>IIRC The MegaLinguist Stack is still at<BR>
>http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ rather than at BITS. It's joined by<BR>
>you MegaCharacter and Mercenary Stacks. It's on the Traveller page.<BR>
><BR>
>Direct URLs<BR>
>http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com//Software/MegaLinguist.sit.hqx<BR>
>http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com//Software/MegaMercenary.sit.hqx<BR>
>http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com//Software/MegaCharacters_II.sit.hqx<BR>
><BR>
>I can move it to BITS if you prefer....<BR>
<BR>
No need to move it. I thought there was a link from the BITS website, though.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:07:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Jeff &Michelle Norton" <jmnorton@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: The Empress Wave in Regina<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
<major snipage><BR>
<BR>
>That's my point exactly, which I mention on occasion ever since I've=20<BR>
>heard of the Empress Wave. Let's face it, if the EW is supposed to=20<BR>
>hit Regina in the early 1200's, it's already ripped through=20<BR>
>subsectors A-D of Gvurrdon sector, and that wasn't mentioned at all=20<BR>
>in Alien Races 1: Vargr and Zhodani, where the sector got some cover=20<BR>
>(not to mention the current state of Zhodani affairs and concerns,=20<BR>
=20<BR>
Okay, now.<BR>
Just one thought. Since Grandfather clipped off his pocket 'home', and, =<BR>
it is near the Regina System, how does this effect him? Since he is THE =<BR>
ancient, it would be 'reasonable' to say that he does have some psi =<BR>
talents. Does this make him go mad too? Does the Empress wave effect a =<BR>
pinched off pocket?=20<BR>
=20<BR>
This is one heck of a thing to contemplate just after waking up and =<BR>
answering yer email..... Makes ones OJ curdle...<BR>
=20<BR>
- -Jeff<BR>
<BR>
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<DIV>Hello,</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&lt;major snipage&gt;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&gt;That's my point exactly, which I mention on =<BR>
occasion=20<BR>
ever since I've <BR>
&gt;heard of the Empress Wave. Let's face it, if the =EW is=20supposed to <BR>
&gt;hit Regina in the early 1200's, it's already ripped =through=20<BR>
&gt;subsectors A-D of Gvurrdon sector, and that wasn't mentioned at =all=20<BR>
&gt;in Alien Races 1: Vargr and Zhodani, where the sector got some =cover=20</DIV><DIV>&gt;(not to mention the current state of Zhodani =affairs=20and concerns, </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Okay, now.</DIV><DIV>Just one thought. Since Grandfather clipped off = his pocket=20 'home', and, it is near the Regina System, how does this effect him? = Since he is=20 THE ancient, it would be 'reasonable' to say that he does have some psi = talents.=20 Does this make him go mad too? Does the Empress wave effect a pinched =off=20pocket? </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>This is one heck of a thing to contemplate just =after=20waking up and answering yer email..... Makes ones OJ =curdle...</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>-Jeff<BR>
</DIV><BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:49:32 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Total Confusion Gaming Convention<BR>
<BR>
Just got my confirmation for the "Total Confusion" Gaming Convention! I'll<BR>
be looking for others who will be attending, please end email. Also note the<BR>
corrected dates; these are Thu (night), Fri, Sat & Sun.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------Begin-------------------------<BR>
- ----------------------------------<BR>
Total Confusion XIV PreReg Confirmation<BR>
Total Confusion  XIV dates were misprinted in the preregistration booklet,<BR>
the<BR>
correct dates are: Feb 24-27, 2000<BR>
<BR>
Name on PreReg: THOM HARRIS<BR>
<BR>
Registered for these days: All Weekend<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------End--------------------------<BR>
- ----------------------------------<BR>
If you think you can make it please email thomharr@mediaone.net me or call<BR>
me 781-891-3208 and give me some dates and times and I'll do my best to get<BR>
us all together for at least a few minutes in between gaming. I don't know<BR>
if I made the cut for the Traveller slot yet. I'll keep you posted....<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:17:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
>>How would Longbow II detect the Empress Wave though?  IIRC, Longbow<BR>
>>II is basicly just an optical telescope array several sectors<BR>
>>across.  If the Empress Wave is moving at c, then Longbow will<BR>
>>first see it when the first Longbow element gets hits by the wave.<BR>
><BR>
>For public consuption, Longbow II was just an optical telecopic<BR>
>array.  Privately...who's to say there wasn't some psionic<BR>
>"research" going on too?  <g><BR>
<BR>
For public consumption Longbow II does not exists. (Get the net.)<BR>
Surly citizen you can't believe that the Imperium would waste money on<BR>
sector wide scanning equipment. (Get the Net!)<BR>
Psionic research? Citizen that would be against Imperial Law. (GET THE NET!)<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:32:14 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots<BR>
<BR>
Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >> The percentage of a ships crew, at a given TL [the lower of<BR>
> >> ships computer or ships electronics TL when dealing with a<BR>
> >> ship constructed at multiple TL's] that may be robotic is<BR>
> >> limited to the percentage of robotic brain CPU's that may<BR>
> >> be synaptic at that TL (round down).<BR>
<BR>
> "Charles Prevatte" wrote:<BR>
> Once a problem has been diagnosed by a human technition there is little<BR>
> reason that a bot could not replace the bad part for example.  This<BR>
> takes no volition. <BR>
> What they could not do would be deal with non routine situations<BR>
> without direct human supervision.  A ship with a robot aided <BR>
> crew  would be cheap to run on a daily basis but have a great <BR>
> deal of trouble dealing with a major unprogramed problem like a boarding<BR>
> action or hijack attempt.  The'robot crew' would be in effect <BR>
> useless unless they were the expensive and high tech autonomous <BR>
> types and in the end these cost much more than crew <BR>
<BR>
_No_ they do not cost more than a human crew. <BR>
<BR>
I posted a design for an INT 6, EDU 3, Skill 4 Robot that <BR>
cost about Cr 405,000, or less than Cr 2,400 a month. <BR>
This is cheaper than a human crew person even before you <BR>
include the _massive_ savings you get by not having to <BR>
provide them a stateroom. Whatever space you do not fill<BR>
up with crew you may fill with passengers, freight, or<BR>
cargo. <BR>
<BR>
In canon MT this robot will have a + 4 DM to a Skill &<BR>
Edu task and a +5 to a Skill and Int class. Its EDU could <BR>
easily be increased to 5 (a further +1 DM on EDU tasks)<BR>
for only a 0.1% cost increase. This is a better bonus than<BR>
most PC's I've seen have to most tasks they attempt. <BR>
Therefore the high autonomous robotic crew member is<BR>
(statistically) much safer for the ship because the greater<BR>
DM for task success will lead to fewer critical failures.<BR>
Critical failures can cause misjumps. Misjumps may result<BR>
in the loss of a ship. Ships are expensive. Therefore<BR>
(according to the letter of the rules as written) you<BR>
are safer on the robotically crewed ship.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Good so far, but let's add an Imperial Regulation for starship safety<BR>
> for the non-routine situations. Requiring that the following positions<BR>
> be filled with sentient crew:<BR>
<BR>
Don't say sentient, say living, the Imperium does not <BR>
recognize robots as sentient even of they are.<BR>
<BR>
This also permits anti prosthetics bigots like Margaret<BR>
to redefine persons with cybernetic parts as robot so they<BR>
can be fired and/or enslaved. Remember you can't enslave<BR>
people so the easiest way to get away with slavery is to<BR>
establish the non-humanity of your slaves.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Captain, <BR>
<BR>
Yes the Captains _got_ to be sentient since he's legally<BR>
responsible for the ship. He can't assume that responsibility<BR>
if he's not sentient.<BR>
<BR>
> Chief Pilot, Astrogator, and Chief Engineer. <BR>
<BR>
Notice these are the three people who get you into<BR>
jumpspace, so the reason (or rationalization) might <BR>
be jumpspace safety related, even though I have<BR>
indicated above that the robots are actually safer<BR>
as well as cheaper. <BR>
<BR>
The canon rules do not support the canon sophont<BR>
crew.<BR>
<BR>
> required positions.  Add in regs from planets and merchant guilds<BR>
> requiring the Chief Steward to be sentient if High Passages are offered,<BR>
> and you require the majority of PC ships to be light on robots even at<BR>
> TL15.<BR>
<BR>
I'd suggest making this a negative DM to number of<BR>
High Passengers rather than a regulation against robotic<BR>
chief stewards.<BR>
<BR>
It is possible, and even probable, that most Imperial<BR>
regulations against robotic starship crew members come<BR>
from the early Imperium before the achievement of TL 13,<BR>
since TL 13 is required of robots capable of functioning<BR>
at the High Autonomous level and their are legitimate safety<BR>
arguments against having ships crew who can not use their <BR>
own judgment in an emergency.<BR>
<BR>
One possible way to discourage robot crew would be to<BR>
say that all ships with any robot crew must have one<BR>
or more roboticsts/robot operators on board. Use the<BR>
"medical personnel" rule to figure out how many are<BR>
required. Round _up_ for number of roboticists<BR>
required since, unlike living beings, robots can not <BR>
normally heal on their own. Therefore they need a<BR>
roboticist. Obviously said law will forbid the roboticist<BR>
from itself being a robot.<BR>
<BR>
If you require Robotics-2 to be Imperially certified for <BR>
this position you can stop most PC ships from having any<BR>
robots since Robotics skill is fairly scarce amongst<BR>
most PC's (not counting Dr. Krenstein).<BR>
<BR>
P.S. And did you ever wonder why the oldish Dr Krenstein<BR>
built his robotic "servant" in the form of a _much_<BR>
younger "man"? A "man" that, while slightly goofy looking, <BR>
is not unattractive? A "man" that could be ordered to do <BR>
_whatever_ Dr Krenstein wanted? A man that, in one of the <BR>
published adventures was pursued romantically by a woman -<BR>
"naturally" the rest of the party had to come up with <BR>
reasons to keep them them apart so she would not find out he <BR>
was a "robot"? A robot who was portrayed as being<BR>
"fully functional"? A robot that, unlike a human, that will<BR>
never get older? A robot that, unlike a human, will never<BR>
run away from you? A robot that, unlike a human, will never<BR>
disobey you? A robot that has a "duration" of 21.7 _days_<BR>
and can do perform whatever "services" Dr Krenstein needs<BR>
for this _length_ of time? A "man" with a built in holo-<BR>
recorder that can be used to broadcast his "activities"?<BR>
A man who has the skill "Valet" which human characters<BR>
apparently can not receive? And what, exactly, did Aye bee<BR>
really use that laser welder for?<BR>
<BR>
P. P. S. And did you ever wonder about the rest of the party. <BR>
One of them, Dur, was Dr. Krenstein's "nephew" while the last <BR>
member of the party was a "journalist" who spent his days <BR>
"interviewing" people.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:36:25 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Charismatic Oligarchy...<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
> Nope. Oligarchy is *not "family rule". It's rule by a *group*. <BR>
<BR>
Why can't this group be a family? <BR>
<BR>
An extended family is big enough to be an oligarchy.<BR>
<BR>
What if this planet is ruled by the descendants of<BR>
the first ships captain? (In the same way that Niven's<BR>
Plateau was ruled by the descendants of the crew of<BR>
the STL ships that brought the colonists there.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:53:38 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1893)<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
<BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> <BR>
> >Unfortunately we _can't_ choose our limitations, they<BR>
> >are imposed by Book 8. At TL 13+ the robot crew being<BR>
> >is clearly superior. The canonical non robotically<BR>
> >crewed tramp freighter must (at TL 12+) be explained<BR>
> >by reasons other than economics. But since [IMNSHO] pretty<BR>
> >much all human behavior not explained by physics or<BR>
> >sociobiology is explainable be economics this is difficult.<BR>
> <BR>
> Nope, all it proves is that Books 8 is completely broken<BR>
> from the point of integration into the Imperial background<BR>
> of Traveller. Either the stuff is not available until<BR>
> later tech levels or it should cost 10 or 100 times more.<BR>
> If you treat Book 8 like the optional cyberwear gear in TNE,<BR>
> there is no problem.<BR>
<BR>
Then how can you explain the Zhodani, who use lots of<BR>
robots, despite having a slightly lower maximum TL<BR>
than the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
How can you explain the Hivers's who use lots of robots?<BR>
<BR>
How can you explain the K'Kree who use lots of <BR>
Engineering robots despite having a significantly<BR>
lower TL than the Imperium? [Oh sure the K'Kree<BR>
pretty much have to use robots in tight spaces<BR>
but still].<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that since the Zhodani use mostly dumb bots, <BR>
Hivers are better/higher TL at robotics/computers, <BR>
and the K'Kree have no real alternative and might also<BR>
be using dumb bots it is not totally implausible.<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller universe is a big place. You can not<BR>
rely on Imperium centric answers to problems.<BR>
<BR>
The way I would change book 8 (if I were feeling heretical)<BR>
would be to multiply all software costs by 10x<BR>
and require that program cost and size increase<BR>
with the _square_ of the skill level. This would help push<BR>
the costs of robots up and their average skill levels <BR>
(and thus MT positive DM's) down. For example a Pilot-4 <BR>
program would cost Cr 80,000 (not 2,000) and require<BR>
64 units of CPU space (not 16). The extra 48 units of<BR>
CPU space would cost an extra Cr 24,000 if all linear and<BR>
millions of credits more if Parallel and/or synaptic.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:19:43 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
> Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
> Subject: re:<BR>
> <BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >Canon states that the Imperium rules "the space between the<BR>
> >stars" since jump space is not between the stars than<BR>
> >obviously Imperial law must not hold in jump space.<BR>
<BR>
> Jump space is certainly "between the stars". In Imperial space,<BR>
> it's how *everyone* gets "between the stars", it's certainly part<BR>
> of the area traversed. I don't expect a little detail like crossing<BR>
> dimensional boundries to be something the star-spanning<BR>
> Imperium will worry even a tenth of a second about, if it's in<BR>
> the Imperium's percieved interest.<BR>
<BR>
It is generally a bad idea from a public policy point of <BR>
view for governments to claim powers they can not enforce.<BR>
<BR>
While you are on a ship in jump space external forces can<BR>
not reach you (barring ancient artifacts, one of which, the <BR>
Ottem, can connect to ships in jumpspace). How can the Imperium<BR>
control a ship they can't reach. They may be able to punish<BR>
you later but short of posting a Marine guard on every ship<BR>
they can _not_ enforce the laws on ships in jumpspace.<BR>
Trying, and failing, to enforce some laws tends to encourage<BR>
people to break other laws. Therefore if the Imperium attempts<BR>
to enforce the law in jump space it will lead to more crime<BR>
in normal space.<BR>
<BR>
In addition the Traveller material explaining the areas the<BR>
Imperium claims to rule is not written for Imperial citizens<BR>
it is written for _Traveller_players_. Therefore the <BR>
question is not what would make the most sense it is what<BR>
does the documents say.<BR>
<BR>
> Besides, we have plenty of evidence of Imperial meddling in the<BR>
> affairs of planets right down to the planet's surface. Add to that<BR>
> the Imperial tradition of rule by men, rather than rule by law, and<BR>
> trying to read protection from the Imperium into a motto like that<BR>
> above is even more iffy.<BR>
<BR>
The planets are located in the same universe as the Imperium<BR>
while the ships in jump space are not.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter again:<BR>
> >But Imperial member worlds can, and do, have the death penalty.<BR>
> >I do not see any difference between being shot on site for<BR>
> >spitting on the sidewalk on one of those nice canonical<BR>
> >Extreme law level worlds and being spaced for "free speech"<BR>
> >on a ship registered from one of those worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think that while the Captain has a lot of leeway, he would still<BR>
> follow the general guidelines of Imperial Law while in Imperial space.<BR>
> (Not that this is too big a limit - Imperial Law allows the ship captain<BR>
> to almost get away with murder already.)<BR>
<BR>
Age of sail captains could get away with murder. Traveller<BR>
resembles the age of sail. Therefore ship captain's should<BR>
be able to get away with murder. If they can only "almost" get<BR>
with murder than it is less than true to its influences.<BR>
<BR>
> Reason? It provides common expectations between you, your crew,<BR>
> your passengers and the people on other starships. <BR>
> Trade would grind to a screeching halt if every time you boarded a ship<BR>
> you risked being hung out to dry by the esoteric or even malicious<BR>
> laws of a world a hundred parsecs away.<BR>
<BR>
You have knowingly assumed this risk. Abrogation of the rights<BR>
of contract by elimination of your ability to consent to <BR>
outrageous and unjust contracts would break the Imperium. You<BR>
are not important to the Imperium only your money is important<BR>
to the Imperium. If you are not free to be tricked out of your<BR>
money than what is the point of having mega-corps to do so?  :)<BR>
<BR>
[very funny example snipped]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:22:57 CET<BR>
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
>The Wave travels at lightspeed, so it's travelling forward as fast >as <BR>
>signals Longbow is intercepting. The Longbow station(s) shouldn't >have <BR>
>seen  the wave in advance at all; they should have recieved the >signals <BR>
>showing what it did to the Zhodani at the same time it >arrived at the <BR>
>station.<BR>
><BR>
>(Depending on the exact geometry - if the Wave is a straight line >and the <BR>
>LB stations are "off axis" they'll get some advance<BR>
>notice, but not much.) (I think there were foreward "Longbow" >substations, <BR>
>but they have the same problem...)<BR>
<BR>
I went back and reread the entry on the Longbow project on page 82 in the <BR>
Regency Sourcebook and to me it looks like the phenomena that Longbow <BR>
recorded wasn't _The_ Empress Wave but a some kind of a precursor (let's <BR>
call it an psi-trailer) traveling some distance in front of the main <BR>
wavefront.<BR>
<BR>
Patrik Holmstrm<BR>
Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau.<BR>
- -Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University,1929<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:23:21 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  robot economics<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Jim Lawrie writes:<BR>
> >But unless a 'bot is more dextrous than a human, there is little<BR>
> >reason for building one.<BR>
<BR>
Grav propelled robots have a Dex of F. This is as dexterous<BR>
as a human can get.<BR>
<BR>
>         Well, I might be tempted if I can get a robot that does an<BR>
>         adequite job (just how dexterous does a steward have to be?)<BR>
<BR>
A steward has to be dexterous enough not to spill drinks on<BR>
drunk passengers who try and grab the drinks the steward is<BR>
bringing them out of their hands before the steward can hand<BR>
it to them. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:27:45 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: World Generation System Example on-line <BR>
<BR>
Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> you [Rob] wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >I took my "world history generation system" for a test<BR>
> >drive tonight, and posted the results up on my website.<BR>
<BR>
>    one question, Rob:<BR>
> >B. Number of ships <BR>
> >0. Whatever You Can Find [automatic] <BR>
> >  This also occurs on a failure to make the "converted cargo <BR>
> >  ships" roll.  The fleet consists of tramp freighters and various <BR>
> >  out-of-date vessels taken out of mothballs, garages, surplus, <BR>
> >  used starship dealers, and junkyards.  The colony population <BR>
> >  is halved, and upon arrival an additional 50% of the starship <BR>
> >  tonnage must be scavenged to maintain the remaining ships or <BR>
> >  else the colony loses 4 tech levels.  May be taken for a +1 <BR>
> >  DM on any one subsequent roll.<BR>
> <BR>
>         How many hulls, what size and what die-off on arrival in addition to<BR>
> the above 50% loss?<BR>
<BR>
And how many ships will this rag tag fleet loose along the<BR>
way as they are fleeing from the Cylon tyranny?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:33:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
At 12:36 AM 2/12/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The Imperial Marine Force: "The Emperor's Sword"<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry, I just can't see the Marines chosing any slogan other than "Semper <BR>
>Fidelis." Not because the wee little jarheads can't learn any more latin,<BR>
>but because they're too damn stubborn to want to learn anything else.<BR>
<BR>
they've had a few thousand years. Honestly, the Imperial Marines are the<BR>
descendants of the Terran Confed/RoM Marines, who were drawn from all sorts<BR>
of special warfare and elite units. The traditions are a bit muddled.<BR>
<BR>
>Simon Jester (ex-snipe)<BR>
<BR>
When'd you got through the school?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
I resent your implication that Americans are insensitive<BR>
to the culture of the unwashed, ignorant heathens that<BR>
populate the rest of the world. -Shawn Wilson, in a.f.m<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:48:01 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Spacing <BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Why does your IMOJ care about killings by individuals in<BR>
> >positions of authority when the rest of the Imperial<BR>
> >government does not care about state sponsored killings.<BR>
<BR>
> IMTU, they do care. They require a form of Due process. <BR>
<BR>
Why? Lots of states have not required due process and lots<BR>
of states that have required due process have faked it.<BR>
What is wring with Judge Dread style law enforcement of<BR>
ships with a law level of F+.<BR>
<BR>
> And proof the<BR>
> accused is not an imperial noble, for who a jury of nobles must be<BR>
> convened, or a citizen, who must be allowed to appeal to the Baron and<BR>
> Subsector dukes. Subjects, however, may not be so protected, so long as<BR>
> they are on their home world.<BR>
<BR>
Are you suggesting that the Imperium is cleverly promoting<BR>
Interstellar travel by ensuring that people have more rights<BR>
on another planet then they would on their home planet?<BR>
<BR>
Where in canon is the distinction between citizen and<BR>
subjects made?<BR>
<BR>
> >Why can't ship captains kill people on a whim when other<BR>
> >people can if their local government lets them?<BR>
> <BR>
> The only cases where that happens is when there is no effective government.<BR>
<BR>
It happens _defacto_ all the time [Do you really think if<BR>
a Stalin type says "Take him out and shoot him." that <BR>
someone won't take him out and shoot him. If they bother<BR>
to have a trial it will be as a show.<BR>
<BR>
Are you unfamiliar with the case of the east central African <BR>
tribe (lake Tanganikya area IIRC) whose ruler on making contact<BR>
with Europeans asked to be given a handgun and then tested it <BR>
out by shooting two or three people to death to test how the<BR>
gun worked? The tribe did nothing about it. Some legal<BR>
systems allow some people (although this group may be a very<BR>
small group, possibly even one person) to do this sort of thing.<BR>
Starship captains tend to be well to do and starship owners<BR>
tend to be millionaires. In any good plutocracy they will have<BR>
more rights than lesser beings.<BR>
<BR>
> And even then, IMOJ Tries to take notice. And can impose sanctions for<BR>
> murder, kidnapping, and treason, without the aid of, or even in spite of,<BR>
> local government or law.<BR>
<BR>
So then in your Traveller Universe the Imperium is<BR>
stronger than in the canon Traveller universe?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >It's not a question of supersession its a question of<BR>
> >jurisdiction. If you are in an area that the Imperium claims<BR>
> >to control then yes their rules apply. If you are _not_ in an<BR>
> >area the Imperium claims to control (the inside of a ship in<BR>
> >jump space in MTU) then they can't stop it. If you take the<BR>
> >position that the Imperium does claim to control ships in<BR>
> >jumpspace then I suppose the notion that Imperial law<BR>
> >covers treatment of those who incite to hijacking makes sense.<BR>
> <BR>
> No, it has nothing to do with "Claims", but instead "Does". The Imperium<BR>
> Claims to rule only the space between the worlds. What they do, however, is<BR>
> function as a government that rules the worlds indirectly by implied threat<BR>
> of erradication if they fail to comply with imperial wishes. This is the<BR>
> basic function of law-making: If you violate OUR rules, we can enforce<BR>
> sanction upon you. In the Imperium, only the Imperium can make this true<BR>
> beyond a parsec or two.<BR>
<BR>
How does the Imperium enforce sanctions except after the fact?<BR>
<BR>
It is true that in most cases contemporary governments<BR>
enforce law after the fact but they can _potentially_ sanction<BR>
violations as they occur. In areas where there is no local<BR>
law enforcement (parts of the bush here in Alaska) crime is<BR>
higher. How is spacing someone in jump space any different <BR>
from shooting your neighbor to death in the bush and letting<BR>
nature dispose of the body?<BR>
<BR>
> >Would the ships captain have the right to space people for<BR>
> >sedition when he was in an area controlled by  a local<BR>
> >government that had given him this right? If not then isn't<BR>
> >the Imperium abrogating the sovereignty of its member<BR>
> >worlds?<BR>
<BR>
> Not IMTU. Spacing is prohibited by Imperial Law, save for cases where you<BR>
> cannot safely hold a prisoner who has show himself to be a threat by<BR>
> violence to the ship, it's crew, or to noble passengers. Violations of<BR>
> computer security are "Violence" for this purpose, against the ship.<BR>
> Otherwise, you have to have a body to turn over.<BR>
<BR>
So if you put him in the airlock and pump out the air until<BR>
he dies it's okay as long as you don't hit the eject button<BR>
and loose the body?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:53:19 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
The Empress Wave is what occurred when the woman in the<BR>
upper left quadrant of the TNE rule book front cover did<BR>
the "Vir wave" from Babylon 5 at the Zhodani. <g, d, r><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:57:56 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies (Was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
> "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >Since cheap energy(fusion) plus unlimited labor(robotics)<BR>
> >do away with scarcity(Raw materials are abundant to the<BR>
> >point of unlimited availability in most planetary systems)<BR>
> >the current economic models will not function to describe<BR>
> >the society.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> What you wind up with in a post-robotic-factory world is an economy driven<BR>
> by what isn't in surplus. In many worlds, this will wind up being land or<BR>
> food; maybe both. Entertainment, possibly. In Star Trek, capitalism<BR>
> flourishes, not so much in base needs, but in housing, education,<BR>
> entertainment, and recreation, plus the few things replicator technology<BR>
> can't produce.<BR>
> It may not be recognizeable, but some form of transactional analysis will<BR>
> be prevalent.<BR>
<BR>
But this is quite unlike the canonical Traveller universe,<BR>
in which the economic system seems much more like age of <BR>
sail economics with Mercantilism and laissez faire Capitalism<BR>
at work.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1904<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1905</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 12 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1905<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Snipe (a subset of squid)<BR>
Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Empress Wave<BR>
RE: Name mangling<BR>
Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
Re: Name mangling<BR>
OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
Re: Terraforming<BR>
Re: Charismatic Oligarchy...<BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
[www] 12 Feb 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Military-Government mottos (was-D-Berry - Sorry off TML)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:18:23 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Snipe (a subset of squid)<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:33:40<BR>
 From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
 Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
 <BR>
 >Simon Jester (ex-snipe)<BR>
 <BR>
 When'd you got through the school? >><BR>
<BR>
If I take your meaning correctly, you've just asked when I got through Marine <BR>
sniper training. I wasn't a Marine, I was a Navy Machinist-Repairman (MR). <BR>
The slang that was always used to indicate a member of the enigine crew, also <BR>
known as the Black-Deck Gang (even on nuclear-powered ships), was 'snipe'. I <BR>
never found out why.<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester, a.k.a.<BR>
    Douglas M. R. Grimes<BR>
    MRFN, USNR 1985-1991<BR>
    NAVMARCORRESCEN Broken Arrow, OK<BR>
    assigned USS ACADIA (AD-42) 1988-1991 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:10:13 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:20:18 -0900<BR>
>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re  Surplus Economies (Was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>What you wind up with in a post-robotic-factory world is an economy driven<BR>
>by what isn't in surplus. In many worlds, this will wind up being land or<BR>
>food; maybe both. Entertainment, possibly.<BR>
<BR>
average world has size=5 hydro=5 pop=5 (per world gen)<BR>
so 5*10^5 = 500000 population<BR>
4*pi*(5*800)^2*.5 = 100530965 km^2 land surface area<BR>
equals population density of 1 per 201 km^2. which strikes me as a<BR>
lot of elbow room. Land apparently is in surplus in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
As to food. Given the free land from above it seems likely that food<BR>
is in surplus as well. For entertainment: talk is cheep as are most<BR>
other forms of entertainment. If you can't find someone willing to<BR>
act/sing/dance/lecture to/at/for you in exchange for the ego gratification<BR>
you can always ammuse yourself. Entertainment would also clearly be<BR>
in surplus.<BR>
<BR>
>In Star Trek, capitalism<BR>
>flourishes, not so much in base needs, but in housing, education,<BR>
>entertainment, and recreation, plus the few things replicator technology<BR>
>can't produce. So, with abundant power sources, the economy becomes one<BR>
>driven by the costs of producing the raw materials not replicateable.<BR>
<BR>
If you handwave that some known and understood moolecules are not<BR>
replicateable than there will be areas of relative scarcity. I'm not sure<BR>
that<BR>
I would believe such a handwave though. Something that can kick out a<BR>
passable crepe suzette on demand can probalby deal with any number<BR>
of incredibly complex and ticklish substances. Just a supposition though.<BR>
<BR>
>In<BR>
>short, driven by the cost of Hydrogen and the demand for antimatter,<BR>
>dilithium, and educational opportunity.<BR>
<BR>
Hydrogen is effectively free. Antimatter once seperate containment<BR>
is possible is reasonably easy to make (Lab particle accellerators and<BR>
a couple of magnets and lots of power {effectively free from the fusion})<BR>
The star trek universe has always struck me as a universe with unlimited<BR>
educational opportunity. The most elite school (starfleet academy)<BR>
admits anybody who can pass the entrance exam. You can take the<BR>
exam as often as you like. I don't ever hear mention of tuition rates<BR>
or needing to get scholarships or whathaveyou to attend. I assume<BR>
lesser institutions will have easier entrance requirements. (if less<BR>
prestigious programs.)<BR>
<BR>
>People still work, but work not for<BR>
>basic needs; they work for access to extra replicator rations, holodeck<BR>
>time, fuel (or the power produced from fuel) (which may be the basis of the<BR>
>Credit), etc. In short, you work in exchange for the products of human<BR>
>labor... inventions, education, in-person performances, original artworks,<BR>
>non-replicated items. Star Trek, due to the energy demand, uses replicators<BR>
>for basic needs not met by local non-energy intensive methods; people work<BR>
>for self-betterment, and becuase they want to get access to services.<BR>
><BR>
>It may not be recognizeable, but some form of transactional analysis will<BR>
>be prevalent.<BR>
><BR>
>Bck to Traveller, you've got robotic factories, farming, mining, etc.,<BR>
>cheap power for running the mines and factories. The people who created the<BR>
>factories will charge something for access to their products.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe for the first couple of decades. Eventually it will dawn on people<BR>
that<BR>
the robots are now doing all the work so why should they pay Gill Bates'<BR>
grandkids for something that they never did.<BR>
<BR>
>Not of need<BR>
>currency, but perhaps like BBS's used to do: you recieve 30 minute access<BR>
>per day, and the more you post the more time you are allowed. So, if you<BR>
>want 45 minutes, and posting is a 5 minutes per K increase, you post 3 k of<BR>
>appropriate posts... ideas become a currency of access to others ideas.<BR>
<BR>
Ideas make lousy currency, for a couple of reasons: One everbody has them,<BR>
and. Two not all ideas are equally good. Bad coinage forces good coinage<BR>
out of circulation.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Everywhere there has been an unmet need of any kind, some form of<BR>
>transactional analysis has found some basis for an economy, even if said<BR>
>currency is sexual.<BR>
><BR>
>Let us take prisons. The needs are sexual gratification, privacy, safety<BR>
>from abuse, escape, and entertainment; nicotene often is used by prisoners,<BR>
>so that addiction feeds the economy, too. Individuals trade items for other<BR>
>items, or services (like safety or sexual gratification), or for less<BR>
>tangible ones, like subservience and/or loyalty. All the BASIC needs (Food,<BR>
>water, clothing) are met. Safety from the others is a commodity offered by<BR>
>the most dangerous in exchange for other desired they have. Boom, you have<BR>
>an economy, where the currency consists of sexually servicing others for<BR>
>protection from them and others like them.<BR>
<BR>
And this prison economy works because all of these goods and services<BR>
are rare in prison. Outside of prison where all of these things are commonly<BR>
available this economy no longer works.<BR>
<BR>
>Boredom will be an issue; studies indicate crime is linked to boredom, to a<BR>
>great degree - humans are intrinsically wired for curiosity and adventure,<BR>
>to a point. So in the hypothetical communal robotic industry, the basic<BR>
>demand is safety, entertainment, and activity. The law may REQUIRE you to<BR>
>have some form of extra-domocile activity, and reward contributions to<BR>
>society with better housing.<BR>
<BR>
Safety is often incompatible with entertainment and activity perhaps<BR>
there is where classic econ wiggles it's way in people trade rations of<BR>
excitement and shelter in a global lifestyles exchange. Considering the<BR>
land availability in the OTU I figure anybody who wants one can have a<BR>
50+ room mansion on mega-hectares of land.<BR>
<BR>
>Again, you have a currency. If the currency fo<BR>
>society is not the currency of the government, you also have multiple<BR>
>separate economies, and encourage a black market. So you might wind up with<BR>
>odd transactions as a base, but there will be transactions at work.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think this necesarily follows. But if there is something in a<BR>
society<BR>
that is scarce and in demand a market economy will develop around it.<BR>
<BR>
And my take on the star trek universe is that it more closely resembles<BR>
a cradle to grave sociallist egalitarianism than a market driven capitalism.<BR>
The members of starfleet are the exceptional creme de la creme who<BR>
actively seek excitement and intrigue. I always picture the rest of the<BR>
society as hanging out at sidewalk cafes drinking black coffe and writing<BR>
execrebal poetry or somesuch personaly satisfying but economically<BR>
useless persuits. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vaca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
  - Bart Caeser<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:49:38 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/10/00 8:36 PM, jdegraff@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Check out<BR>
> http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/shooting/winter_99-shoot.htm<BR>
<BR>
I'm not a firearm afficianado, but that MP5 looks real sharp. Seems to have<BR>
a nice profile for running around in the woods, what with the short barrel<BR>
and all. Do you have any information on it, as in where somebody might buy<BR>
one, and technical data? The "Spanish Destroyer" looks real wicked too. Very<BR>
nice pics. Nice shots of the HK G36K.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:24:43 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/11/00 7:04 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-02-10 06:21:50 EST, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> << David Dietrick >><BR>
> <BR>
> D-e-i-<BR>
> <BR>
> Dave, like Marc, dislikes it when people mispell his name, but they are both<BR>
> too polite to mention it.<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
> <BR>
Aye, my roomie's last name is Weiss, and it is usually misspelled on<BR>
junk-mail, bills, etc. Just remember the *full* rule, with all the required<BR>
exceptions....<BR>
<BR>
I before e, except after c, except when the sound is "a", except when it's<BR>
of Germanic derivation...<BR>
<BR>
I think there are exceptions to those as well, perhaps a rule, more likely<BR>
individual deviant words.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:57:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The Empress Wave is what occurred when the woman in the<BR>
> upper left quadrant of the TNE rule book front cover did<BR>
> the "Vir wave" from Babylon 5 at the Zhodani. <g, d, r><BR>
> <BR>
But wasn't what Vir did to Morden the Centauri equivalent of "giving the<BR>
finger"??? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:00:00 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Name mangling<BR>
<BR>
I am convinced that many people just don't care. Yesterday, gave someone my<BR>
email address over the phone <glenn.myers@ansys.com> and when I recieved<BR>
their message it began - "Hello Glen Meyers,".<BR>
<BR>
There is just no excuse for that. I spelled it for him on the phone and he<BR>
typed it correctly at least once to get it in his address book.<BR>
<BR>
GlenN<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:10:01 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
> The Bread Pudding Game: Rules<BR>
> <BR>
> Take the name of a book, film, well known phrase etc, and replace a<BR>
> keyword or phrase with 'Bread Pudding'<BR>
> <BR>
> The person who gets the biggest laugh wins, though usually only<BR>
> because everyone is now (after multiple rounds) collapsed on the<BR>
> floor clutching their sides in pain and trying to catch their breath<BR>
> between burst of hysterical laughter....<BR>
<BR>
Lord of the Bread Puddings<BR>
<BR>
Microsoft Bread Puddings<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani Repository of All Bread Puddings<BR>
(that sure explains the 'B' in AAB...)<BR>
<BR>
To boldly go where no bread pudding has gone before<BR>
<BR>
Never trust a bread pudding<BR>
<BR>
Dark side of the bread pudding<BR>
<BR>
May the bread pudding be with you<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:12:20 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Name mangling<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Myers wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I am convinced that many people just don't care. Yesterday, gave someone my<BR>
> email address over the phone <glenn.myers@ansys.com> and when I recieved<BR>
> their message it began - "Hello Glen Meyers,".<BR>
> <BR>
> There is just no excuse for that. I spelled it for him on the phone and he<BR>
> typed it correctly at least once to get it in his address book.<BR>
> <BR>
I hear ya Glenn...last night some schmuck telemarketer called me and asked<BR>
for a "Mr. Josh Spence"...and I told her that there was no such person<BR>
there. She apologized and hung up.<BR>
<BR>
I'm much more forgiving about my first name, Josh, because when I was born<BR>
it wasn't a popular name, and I correct them...but if it's a telemarketer<BR>
calling, all bets are off.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: I wonder how annoying telemarketers are in the 3I? "Hello, this is<BR>
operator Shmi for the Imperial Veterans Association...may I speak with Mr.<BR>
Hann...Sulu?"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:19:30 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Did anyone else buy into the offer at AS&S for 5 RPG supplements for $5?<BR>
http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?section=1<BR>
If so, what did you get? I received RPG supplements for Buck Rogers,<BR>
Ravenloft, Dark Sun, AD&D and Dragonlance adventures. I'll be happy to<BR>
sell/trade these if anyone received something I want. Contact me off-list. <BR>
<BR>
I also ordered 20 colored d6s for $3, half red and half blue. They are very<BR>
nice. I'm going to use them for simultaneous sensor and combat rolls. <BR>
<BR>
Byeee,<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:18:36 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
On 02/12/00 at 10:12 AM,  "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Also, if you have more than just "The Ancients" as civilizations that<BR>
>> rose and then disappeared before Humaniti took to the stars, then we<BR>
>> may find planets *they* terraformed, or partially terraformed.<BR>
<BR>
>Well, the point of this exercise is to find something that "works",<BR>
>rather than to keep finding reasons why thing don't work.  I wasn't going<BR>
>to use any alien civilisations, but I may have to resort to this.  It's<BR>
>no worse than the Ancients handwave in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
There are Ancients and then there are ancients.  <g> Part of this<BR>
work could have been started during the First Imperium.  That's<BR>
several thousand years of terraforming on semi-habitable worlds.<BR>
Prior to that there were the Droyne, as well as other species (like<BR>
the Guy-troy)...who have similar environmental requirements and have<BR>
been space faring for several hundred thousand years.  Even before<BR>
the Droyne there could have been other unknown civilizations.<BR>
<BR>
Continuing with that thought, suppose some *really* ancient<BR>
civilization who, for whatever reason, believed that it was their<BR>
destiny to make as many planets in the galaxy suitable for life...as<BR>
they knew it...as possible.  So, they build stl self-replicating,<BR>
robotic, "arks" that spread out, ancientforming worlds, large and<BR>
small, as they go.  For whatever reason the progenitors never follow<BR>
their arks to the stars, but the arks travel onward leaving behind<BR>
changed systems as they pass.  There could have been more than one<BR>
wave of these arks passing through too.<BR>
<BR>
Food for thought. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:28:07 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Charismatic Oligarchy...<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 9:36 AM, pnewman@gci.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Nope. Oligarchy is *not "family rule". It's rule by a *group*.<BR>
> <BR>
> Why can't this group be a family?<BR>
<BR>
I think this was a minor misunderstanding. The first post was that a fuedal<BR>
primary autarch (king, emperor, thane, what-have-you) might give his<BR>
dominion to his children. The key word here is "children" and if the realm<BR>
was given to them equally, and *not* broken up (Terran history), it would<BR>
IMHO change the GovType from monarchy to oligarchy. I can't recall that ever<BR>
happening here on Earth.<BR>
 <BR>
> An extended family is big enough to be an oligarchy.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO as well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:30:16 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 10:19 AM, pnewman@gci.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (barring ancient artifacts, one of which, the<BR>
> Ottem, can connect to ships in jumpspace)<BR>
<BR>
?<BR>
<BR>
Never heard of it, I'll search the web. Meanwhile, anyone hear know about<BR>
this? More information?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:50:00 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 12 February 2000 05:47<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 2/11/00 10:52:18 AM Central Standard Time,<BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:08:01<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Military-Government mottos (was-D-Berry - Sorry off TML)<BR>
><BR>
>  >Has any anyone thought of what the mottos of various units or<BR>
orginizations<BR>
> >in the Imperium or the Solomani empire might be<BR>
><BR>
> The Imperial Marine Force: "The Emperor's Sword"<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, I just can't see the Marines chosing any slogan other than "Semper<BR>
>Fidelis." Not because the wee little jarheads can't learn any more latin,<BR>
but<BR>
>because they're too damn stubborn to want to learn anything else.<BR>
><BR>
>Simon Jester (ex-snipe)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Marines are not a uniquely American concept.  Other cultures have differing<BR>
mottoes for their 'Marines'. And why would a motto that is only a couple of<BR>
hundred years old last for the next 3500. Are there any similar mottoes that<BR>
have lasted anything quite as long?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:30:07 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
On 02/12/00 at 12:17 PM,  "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>For public consuption, Longbow II was just an optical telecopic<BR>
>>array.  Privately...who's to say there wasn't some psionic<BR>
>>"research" going on too?  <g><BR>
<BR>
>For public consumption Longbow II does not exists. (Get the net.) Surly<BR>
>citizen you can't believe that the Imperium would waste money on sector<BR>
>wide scanning equipment. (Get the Net!)<BR>
>Psionic research? Citizen that would be against Imperial Law. (GET THE<BR>
>NET!)<BR>
<BR>
Exactly!  We all know that the Imperium opposes inappropriate and<BR>
uncontrolled psionics by the public.  Of course, that begs the<BR>
question as to just *what* psionics is appropriate and is controlled<BR>
by whom?  <g><BR>
<BR>
IMTU, there is a "dark time" that sweeps across space turning men<BR>
into no more than animals.  It is years before this time passes and<BR>
thousands of years before civilizations arise and begin to<BR>
tentitively reach out to the stars again.  Neither the players nor<BR>
the characters they play know what happened those thousands of<BR>
years ago...there are common folktales, even scholarly theories, but<BR>
they don't *know* what happened.  Maybe they will discover something<BR>
of the truth of the past, but more likely they never will. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:54:33 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] 12 Feb 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller<BR>
Resource has posted its most recent update to<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.  <BR>
<BR>
This update features:<BR>
<BR>
 - Ken Pick presents us with Classic Traveller designs for<BR>
   modified Far Traders, Subsidized Merchants, and Missile<BR>
   Warship/SDB. These design sets can be found in the Shipyard. <BR>
<BR>
 - Also from Ken Pick are some ideas for incorporating legal (or<BR>
   semi-legal) psionics into the background of a campaign. Find<BR>
   them in Doing It My Way. <BR>
<BR>
 - To go along with the psionics rules, Ken Pick describes some<BR>
   equipment and drugs. They can also be found in Doing It My<BR>
   Way. <BR>
<BR>
 - Updated the FAQ (in the Information Center) to reflect recent<BR>
   SJG releases and the Classic Traveller Reprints from FarFuture<BR>
   Enterprises. <BR>
<BR>
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at<BR>
Freelance Traveller.  Please write to<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all of them, as we are<BR>
in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may be<BR>
temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good<BR>
will of Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our<BR>
existence, and to write for us, making our existence possible.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation<BR>
to The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to<BR>
Executive Network Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com)<BR>
for hosting services. Without organizations willing to cooperate<BR>
with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing needs, we would be unable<BR>
to bring you the articles and other resources that have made<BR>
Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on the <BR>
'net.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:06:53 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>It is generally a bad idea from a public policy point of <BR>
>view for governments to claim powers they can not enforce.<BR>
> <BR>
>While you are on a ship in jump space external forces can<BR>
>not reach you [...]. How can the Imperium control a ship<BR>
>they can't reach.<BR>
<BR>
The same way an 18th Century naval power controlled ships on the High Sea,<BR>
or at least attempted to: By hunting down and hanging anyone who performed<BR>
deeds that said power considered illegal.<BR>
<BR>
>They may be able to punish you later but short of posting a Marine guard<BR>
>on every ship they can _not_ enforce the laws on ships in jumpspace.<BR>
<BR>
No more than any nation even today can enforce laws on ships on the high<BR>
sea. Or in any areas of the land or sea where it does not have a<BR>
representative of law and order within visual range. <BR>
<BR>
>Trying, and failing, to enforce some laws tends to encourage people to<BR>
>break other laws. Therefore if the Imperium attempts to enforce the law<BR>
>in jump space it will lead to more crime in normal space.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium just waits until the offender drops out of jump space and<BR>
then exacts retribution. Quite simple and no different from the way the<BR>
law has been enforced for millenia. Most law enforcement is deterrence,<BR>
you know. Making people refrain from breaking the law for fear of ultimate,<BR>
rather than immidiate consequences. Most people refrain from criminal acts<BR>
even when there is no cop pointing a gun at them. <BR>
<BR>
>In addition the Traveller material explaining the areas the Imperium claims<BR>
>to rule is not written for Imperial citizens it is written for _Traveller_<BR>
>players_. Therefore the question is not what would make the most sense it<BR>
>is what does the documents say.<BR>
<BR>
Walter is not the only one who thinks that that statement is a bit of<BR>
hyperbole.<BR>
<BR>
>Age of sail captains could get away with murder. Traveller<BR>
>resembles the age of sail. Therefore ship captain's should<BR>
>be able to get away with murder. If they can only "almost" get<BR>
>with murder than it is less than true to its influences.<BR>
 <BR>
When they did get away with murder it was through lack of evidence, not<BR>
special legal considerations. When sufficient evidence of murder was<BR>
available, a captain would hang for murder as readily as anyone else. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        'There was a man,'  remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced<BR>
    to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,<BR>
    that  he  thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a<BR>
    common  and  the  judge  answered,  "You  are not to be hanged for<BR>
    stealing  a  horse  from  a common,  but that others may not steal<BR>
    horses from commons." '<BR>
        'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not<BR>
    daily stolen from commons? You do not!'<BR>
<BR>
                        --- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:21:22 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
>> And proof the<BR>
>> accused is not an imperial noble, for who a jury of nobles must be<BR>
>> convened, or a citizen, who must be allowed to appeal to the Baron and<BR>
>> Subsector dukes. Subjects, however, may not be so protected, so long as<BR>
>> they are on their home world.<BR>
><BR>
>Are you suggesting that the Imperium is cleverly promoting<BR>
>Interstellar travel by ensuring that people have more rights<BR>
>on another planet then they would on their home planet?<BR>
><BR>
It is implied, but nowhere is it explicit. Supplement 4 sort of implies it,<BR>
by having only certain careers.<BR>
<BR>
Also, The chirpers on Vanjeen are clearly NOT imperial citizens, nor are<BR>
the droyne worlds, but they ARE subjects, and hence subject to imperial<BR>
laws.<BR>
<BR>
And, it does promote travel!<BR>
<BR>
I make the distinction to provide additional plot complications. Simply<BR>
put, by having the citizen/subject distinction, it encourages persons to<BR>
imperial services (and approved civil jobs) at sub-standard pay. Once a<BR>
citizen, your right to travel, right to due process, and right to appeal to<BR>
the nobility are secured, and protected. Subjects, on the other hand, are<BR>
chattel of their world government... with one exception there: you can take<BR>
imperial service in order to become a citizen, and thus no longer chattel<BR>
of your homeworld's government.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, the 3I really is sort of a super-megacorp, with hereditary transfer<BR>
of common stock (the nobility) and self-perpeutating-oligarchic voting<BR>
stock (Offices and membership in the moot), with a recruiting policy for<BR>
granting new shares (non-heir children and the promoted nobility of reward).<BR>
<BR>
>How does the Imperium enforce sanctions except after the fact?<BR>
><BR>
>It is true that in most cases contemporary governments<BR>
>enforce law after the fact but they can _potentially_ sanction<BR>
>violations as they occur.<BR>
<BR>
Most? Try "ALL".By definition, sanctions are after the act, although what<BR>
the act is is often fuzzy, and in some can simply be active consideration.<BR>
Not that all prosecutions/actions are for factual crimes.<BR>
<BR>
> How is spacing someone in jump space any different<BR>
>from shooting your neighbor to death in the bush and letting<BR>
>nature dispose of the body?<BR>
<BR>
You don't have a passenger lading document to compare to... and you haven't<BR>
had the captain assume personal responsibility for the health, welfare, and<BR>
survival of the passengers, the implicit (and frequently explicit) contract<BR>
upon boardign a craft of any kind. For example, when I get in your vehicle,<BR>
an explicit legal resonsibility exists: I get in your car, whilst you are<BR>
the driver. If I am injured while in your vehicle by any actions not taken<BR>
by myself (whether by you, another passenger, or an outsider, I (or my<BR>
heirs) can attempt to recover damages from you; the implicit contract of my<BR>
getting in the vehicle with your permission is that you are assuming said<BR>
responsibility.<BR>
<BR>
On aircraft and boats, under existing civil and international laws, the<BR>
contract is more explicit, and in the same vein, in that I can expect to<BR>
recover from the captain for any failure of the equipment which brings<BR>
damages to me, even if due to act of nature (like a lighting strike), due<BR>
to his negligence in allowing the craft to operate in unsafe conditions.<BR>
<BR>
When you shoot someone in the bush, there is no tracing of boarding, and<BR>
thus the explicit or implied contract. When you shoot someone aboard ship,<BR>
the captain is responsible. When the captain shoots someone, he'd better<BR>
have followed due process. He;d better be able to prove the contract had<BR>
been breached. And, without the body, he's BREACHED the contract to<BR>
transport. This is why stowawys can be spaced more safely: no contract<BR>
exists, and whats more, there is no paperwork to prove said contract. A<BR>
breach of contract action for failing to make all reasonable efforts is the<BR>
presumed norm anytime a ship leaves with person X, and upon arrival no<BR>
longer has person X; the presupposition automatically becomes murder or<BR>
kidnapping in addition. Allowing captains that much autonomy is beyond even<BR>
the age of sail... The British Admirality courts ordered a captain hung for<BR>
tossing people overboard, even tho they'd attempted to hijack the ship.<BR>
They were paying passengers, and their passage contract was breached.<BR>
<BR>
>So if you put him in the airlock and pump out the air until<BR>
>he dies it's okay as long as you don't hit the eject button<BR>
>and loose the body?<BR>
<BR>
Well, yo;ll at least not get hit with the breach of contract angles... and<BR>
you can prove any DNA evidence was in fact the executed. However, you'll<BR>
still need to prove just cause and due process.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:20:39 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Military-Government mottos (was-D-Berry - Sorry off TML)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/11/00 4:34:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Has any anyone thought of what the mottos of various units or orginizations<BR>
 >in the Imperium or the Solomani empire might be<BR>
 <BR>
 The Imperial Marine Force: "The Emperor's Sword"<BR>
 <BR>
 1183rd Marine Line Regiment: "Hell on the Half-Shell"<BR>
 <BR>
 73rd Lift Infantry Division, Efate PDF: "The Townies"<BR>
 --  >><BR>
<BR>
The Household Cavalry Regiment of the Imperial Guard: "The Emperor's Hammer"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1905<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1906</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 12 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1906<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
Re: Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
Testing<BR>
Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Test #2 (please no double post)<BR>
Hopeful last test message<BR>
Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Testing<BR>
Re: Day length and clock conversions<BR>
RE: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
Re: Testing<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Another 15 minutes of fame!!!<BR>
RE: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
Interesting Encounters (Was: Re: JTAS copyright)<BR>
Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:22:38 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/11/00 4:36:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Mark: pulls out revolver and does a credible job of firing it on full <BR>
auto. >><BR>
<BR>
Huh?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:28:13 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/11/00 5:08:55 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Business-related question: I am considering a possible product that would <BR>
 >involve "walkthroughs" of one or more ships (Beowulf of course, possible <BR>
 >Marava, maybe AHL in our wildest dreams -- and I don't mean Austin Hockey <BR>
 >League) that would be sold on a CD.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
How about the Subsidised merchant, the Gazelle, the SDB, the lab ship, and <BR>
the "Happy Fun Ball" as well?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:32:29 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Jelly donuts (was Re: JTAS (long))<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/11/00 5:41:45 PM !!!First Boot!!!, yikes@evansville.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< ObTrav: What races in the Traveller universe might have a particular taste<BR>
 for jelly donuts? I think the much-maligned K'Kree would. >><BR>
<BR>
Don't tell them that there is lard in the oil...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:34:52 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 3:22 PM, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> << Mark: pulls out revolver and does a credible job of firing it on full<BR>
> auto. >><BR>
> <BR>
> Huh?<BR>
<BR>
I believe the implication is that Mark has a strong and fast index finger.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:46:09 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Testing<BR>
<BR>
This is Free Trader Bloo's Traveller,<BR>
calling anyone . . .<BR>
Mayday, Mayday . . . we are under attack . . .<BR>
posting ability gone . . .<BR>
mail filter number one not responding . . .<BR>
Mayday . . . losing bandwidth fast . . .<BR>
calling anyone . . . please help . . .<BR>
This is Free Trader Bloo's Traveller . . .<BR>
                                Mayday . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:46:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
>The members of starfleet are the exceptional crme de la crme who<BR>
>actively seek excitement and intrigue. I always picture the rest of the<BR>
>society as hanging out at sidewalk cafes drinking black coffee and writing<BR>
>execrebal poetry or some such personally satisfying but economically<BR>
>useless pursuits. YMMV.<BR>
><BR>
>David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
But that's the whole point of the thing. Pursuits should be personally<BR>
satisfying not economically based. If there is enough for all to live in<BR>
luxury why should anyone want to amass a great horde of wealth that they can<BR>
never spend instead of doing things that they find interesting and amusing?<BR>
<BR>
Like for instance controlling the destiny of all the beings that they come<BR>
in contact with and determining who lives and who dies. Ooops there goes<BR>
another paradise the victim of human nature.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:50:22 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Test #2 (please no double post)<BR>
<BR>
Deja vu all over again<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:04:05 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Hopeful last test message<BR>
<BR>
But you never know . . .<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:08:26 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 3:28 PM, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/11/00 5:08:55 PM !!!First Boot!!!,<BR>
> gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Business-related question: I am considering a possible product that would<BR>
>> involve "walkthroughs" of one or more ships (Beowulf of course, possible<BR>
>> Marava, maybe AHL in our wildest dreams -- and I don't mean Austin Hockey<BR>
>> League) that would be sold on a CD.<BR>
>>> <BR>
> <BR>
> How about the Subsidised merchant, the Gazelle, the SDB, the lab ship, and<BR>
> the "Happy Fun Ball" as well?<BR>
> <BR>
Double that vote on the "Happy Fun Ball", one of my faves ;), add Type S<BR>
scout as it should be easier than most, and the safari ship (another fave).<BR>
<BR>
What about a generic Starport concourse or a  landing field? Maybe a<BR>
Donosev?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:07:14 -0700<BR>
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
>Aye, my roomie's last name is Weiss, and it is usually misspelled on<BR>
>junk-mail, bills, etc. Just remember the *full* rule, with all the required<BR>
>exceptions....<BR>
><BR>
>I before e, except after c, except when the sound is "a", except when it's<BR>
>of Germanic derivation...<BR>
><BR>
>I think there are exceptions to those as well, perhaps a rule, more likely<BR>
>individual deviant words.<BR>
<BR>
My maiden name was Weiner (Winer, Whiner...to rhyme). You know what kind of <BR>
jokes I suffered in school as *every* substitute teacher mis-pronounced it...<BR>
<BR>
And then there is my married name.... people just don't want to believe <BR>
that our last name is just like the money, so its just automatic to say <BR>
'just like the money' when I'm giving my name to anyone.<BR>
<BR>
Suz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:13:05 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Testing<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 3:46 PM, stevedaniels@portcaddo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This is Free Trader Bloo's Traveller,<BR>
> calling anyone . . .<BR>
> Mayday, Mayday . . . we are under attack . . .<BR>
> posting ability gone . . .<BR>
> mail filter number one not responding . . .<BR>
> Mayday . . . losing bandwidth fast . . .<BR>
> calling anyone . . . please help . . .<BR>
> This is Free Trader Bloo's Traveller . . .<BR>
> Mayday . . .<BR>
<BR>
God that's funny, if I were less reserved and not expecting this level of<BR>
wit here on the TML, that would be a first class SPLORT!, good job there,<BR>
flagged for archives!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:10:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Day length and clock conversions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Actually, I think the most likely setup on *passenger* ships (as<BR>
>>opposed to traders that occasionally carry passengers) would be<BR>
>>for the ship's day to be set such that the time of day when you<BR>
>>leave matches the local time of day t the port, and when you<BR>
>>arrive, it does the same. This helps prevent the equivalent of<BR>
>>"jet lag".<BR>
><BR>
> But having the length of the ship's day vary substantially and in different<BR>
> directions every two weeks or less is going to be hard on the<BR>
> crew, especially if you get sol length ratios such as 2:3 or 3:5.<BR>
> The less often you have to adapt to this kind of change, the<BR>
> better. There are several different ways to get out of phase with<BR>
> the day/night cycle at the point where passenges debark.  I'd<BR>
> think the crew keeps a regular schedule, and it's part of<BR>
> the steward's job to help the passengers adjust to clock shift.<BR>
> On larger ships where you have several stewards who can rotate<BR>
> shifts at need and where the passengers are separated from the<BR>
> crew, this kind of thing would be more feasible than on your<BR>
> usual free trader.<BR>
<BR>
I made exactly that distinction. On  the "liners" the passengers and<BR>
crew may well be on different schedules. On a free trader, they<BR>
passengers will just have to deal with it.<BR>
<BR>
>>>      Another question to look at is whether time behaves<BR>
>>> differently in jumpspace than in normal space, and if so, how<BR>
>>> ships solve the problem of synchronizing their own time with<BR>
>>> Imperial astrogation beacons and the like.<BR>
><BR>
>>If it did behave differently enough to worry about, it'd affect<BR>
>>aging rolls... :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Not with variances up to a day or so and in either direction. On<BR>
> the average, these would cancel out and not affect aging, but<BR>
> they would make attempts to match phase of the day/night cycle<BR>
> with the destination world mostly futile.<BR>
<BR>
If such differences in time rate between normal space and jump space<BR>
exist, they are *unlikely* to "average out". They'd almost certainly be<BR>
due to a *real* difference in the rate at which time passes in the two<BR>
"spaces". And as such, the difference isn't likely to vary cyclicly, so<BR>
it has to either be a steady difference in rate, or an accelerating<BR>
one. In the latter case, the difference would have changed<BR>
*drastically* over the millenia. Since that hasn't happened, it must be<BR>
a "steady" difference.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:10:18 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
<BR>
Firing it REALLY REALLY FAST :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 3:23 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 2/11/00 4:36:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
> gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Mark: pulls out revolver and does a credible job of firing it on full <BR>
> auto. >><BR>
> <BR>
> Huh?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:20:48 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/12/00 11:37:46 PM !!!First Boot!!!, xrp@sierratel.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<<  believe the implication is that Mark has a strong and fast index finger. <BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
makes sense...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:22:58 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Testing<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> God that's funny, if I were less reserved and not expecting this level of<BR>
> wit here on the TML, that would be a first class SPLORT!, good job there,<BR>
> flagged for archives!<BR>
<BR>
Well, gee, thanks.  But I really was having trouble.<BR>
But they seem to be resolved now.<BR>
<BR>
Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:25:36 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
>> << David Dietrick >><BR>
>><BR>
>> D-e-i-<BR>
>><BR>
>> Dave, like Marc, dislikes it when people mispell his name, but they are<BR>
both<BR>
>> too polite to mention it.<BR>
>><BR>
>> LKW<BR>
<BR>
    Being concerned about misspelling on the net is like disliking the tide.<BR>
    Jim Lawrie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:25:58 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Another 15 minutes of fame!!!<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:30:04 -0800, "David P. Summers"<BR>
<summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
>Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:35:14 -0800<BR>
><BR>
>>Hey, guess who's picture is on the front page of the San Jose Mercury News.<BR>
>>It's for the headline story about the recent wave of Internet hacks. My wife<BR>
>>is already buying extra copies for relatives.<BR>
><BR>
>So your real name is "group of executives"?  Can we call you "group"<BR>
>for short?<BR>
><BR>
Let's just call him Bruce to avoid confusion.    ;-)<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:20:26 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
<BR>
Hiya',<BR>
<BR>
A cool place to get tech data on several weapons is Remtek, which is at<BR>
http://www.remtek.com/arms/.  Depending on what state or country you live<BR>
in, you may or may not be able to purchase a real steel MP5 or other weapon<BR>
classified under the NFA (for the US).  In the US, an MP5 may cost you up to<BR>
$7,000 these days, which really sucks 'cause Law Enforcement can get them<BR>
for about $1,100.<BR>
<BR>
An alternative for collecting and just playing around is airsoft.  These are<BR>
hyper-realistic looking BB guns that are manufactured primarily in Japan,<BR>
but there are other manufacturers in Asia & Europe.  For tons of airsoft<BR>
info, check out these sites.<BR>
http://www.airsoftzone.com/news.cfm - Hobbyist<BR>
http://www.airsoftguns.com/ - Hobbyist<BR>
http://www.best.com/~vxl/airsoft/ - Hobbyist<BR>
http://www.dentrinity.com/ - Retailer (Hong Kong)<BR>
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/ - Retailer (Hong Kong)<BR>
<BR>
The Hong Kong retailers are about as cheap as you can get them, at least in<BR>
the US.  The bad news is if you want your gun in less time than a month,<BR>
you're going to have to pay Speedpost, and that can push the price up by<BR>
$75-100.  Otherwise, you can ship it via surface mail for ~$35, it just<BR>
takes 4 weeks to get to you.<BR>
<BR>
If you have any other questions, feel free to drop me a line directly.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Benyamene'<BR>
> ZeAbe' Akella<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 12:50 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Guns and Wounds and Recoil, Oh MY!!...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Via electronic medium on 2/10/00 8:36 PM, jdegraff@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Check out<BR>
> > http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/shooting/winter_99-shoot.htm<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not a firearm afficianado, but that MP5 looks real sharp.<BR>
> Seems to have<BR>
> a nice profile for running around in the woods, what with the short barrel<BR>
> and all. Do you have any information on it, as in where somebody might buy<BR>
> one, and technical data? The "Spanish Destroyer" looks real<BR>
> wicked too. Very<BR>
> nice pics. Nice shots of the HK G36K.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:33:28 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
>> << Business-related question: I am considering a possible product that<BR>
would<BR>
>>> involve "walkthroughs" of one or more ships (Beowulf of course, possible<BR>
>>> Marava, maybe AHL in our wildest dreams -- and I don't mean Austin<BR>
Hockey<BR>
>>> League) that would be sold on a CD.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>><BR>
>> How about the Subsidised merchant, the Gazelle, the SDB, the lab ship,<BR>
and<BR>
>> the "Happy Fun Ball" as well?<BR>
>><BR>
>Double that vote on the "Happy Fun Ball", one of my faves ;), add Type S<BR>
>scout as it should be easier than most, and the safari ship (another fave).<BR>
><BR>
>What about a generic Starport concourse or a  landing field? Maybe a<BR>
>Donosev?<BR>
<BR>
    The only problem with the Type S for a fly-thru is that the deckplans<BR>
don't fit in the hull. You have to move the forward hold back under the<BR>
drive room and the upper gallery sticks right out of the hull, even after<BR>
lowering the roof you can't get through the forward iris vavle.<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 22:55:06 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
<BR>
>The Vilani Repository of All Bread Puddings<BR>
>(that sure explains the 'B' in AAB...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Mmmmm... Give me a vat of custard and a spoon....<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:59:48 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Interesting Encounters (Was: Re: JTAS copyright)<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> At 11:30 PM 2/6/2000 EST, Loren wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >More than once. GDW was accused of stealing the Ancients from Fred<BR>
> >Pohl and of stealing the Aslan from CJ Cherryh, among other things.<BR>
> >Used to happen every few months, back in the bad old days.<BR>
><BR>
> Speaking of authors, I had the chance to show Poul Anderson _First In_<BR>
> (which is dedicated to him) at last year's BayCon. I mentioned that the<BR>
> book had a detailed system generation system and he suddenly looked<BR>
> like a kid who was just told that Santa died on the lawn and his bag was<BR>
> still there...<BR>
<BR>
Is it time to tell stories about author encounters?  Oh goody, I<BR>
have several.  Let's see, CJ Cherryh?  Nah, I'll save those.<BR>
Larry Niven?  Nah, those stories are boring (the encounters<BR>
weren't, but the retelling would be).<BR>
<BR>
I used to attend OKon in Tulsa every year.  During one of my<BR>
first OKons, I had the opportunity to meet one of my favorite<BR>
authors, Robert Asprin, who, BTW, is an interesting character.<BR>
<BR>
I was hoping to meet him since he was signing books,<BR>
unfortunately, I was running a game during his signing period.<BR>
After the game, I tried to make it over to the author's table<BR>
before he left.  As I approached the table, there was only one<BR>
person there, a man looking a little bewildered, like he was<BR>
trying to find someone or something.<BR>
<BR>
As I approached the table, I introduced myself by name and<BR>
stuck out my hand.  He shook my hand and said, "You can<BR>
call me Bob."  I said something about how sorry I was I<BR>
hadn't had the opportunity to meet Mr. Asprin and that I was<BR>
going to the Panel next and hoped to get to meet him<BR>
afterwards.  He indicated that he was also going to the<BR>
Panel and asked me why I wanted to meet Mr. Asprin.  I<BR>
explained that I really liked his work and had always wanted<BR>
to meet him in person and say thanks for all the hours of<BR>
entertainment.<BR>
<BR>
Bob asked me which of Mr. Asprin's works I had read what I<BR>
liked about them.  I told him and he asked if there was<BR>
anything that I didn't like about any of his works and I told him<BR>
(wasn't much, I'm no critic).  By that time, we had gotten to the<BR>
room where the Panel was to be held and he said that he<BR>
needed to use the toilet before things got started.  He said<BR>
he would see me later and I went inside.  I got a seat.  All but<BR>
one of the Panel Members were there.  The Moderator<BR>
introduced everyone and said that they were going to wait on<BR>
Robert Asprin.<BR>
<BR>
While we were waiting, Bob came in.  I indicated an empty<BR>
seat next to me.  He smiled and thanked me and said that he<BR>
already had a seat and started heading toward the front.<BR>
About that time, the Moderator noticed him and introduced<BR>
my new friend, Bob, to the assembled audience as Robert<BR>
Asprin.<BR>
<BR>
That my children, is how I met the great and amusing Robert<BR>
Asprin and why I call him Bob.  After the Panel, Bob came<BR>
back to where I was and we had a laugh together and<BR>
continued our conversation.  I had told him earlier that I was<BR>
an aspiring author and he said that when I finished a story<BR>
that he would be happy to read it and might be able to help<BR>
me out.<BR>
<BR>
I have never imposed on him by sending a story, but I will<BR>
always remember the meeting fondly.  That and my<BR>
encounters with other authors was what convinced me that<BR>
most of them are just ordinary folks.  With extraordinary lives.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:05:13 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
<BR>
From: Luther Martin <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Volker Greimann contributed the following to the bashing of military food:<BR>
><BR>
> > Yup. The best thing I ever saw when serving in he military were the<BR>
> > potato-bags, which were labeled: "Fuer Schweinemast und Bundeswehr"<BR>
> > ("For Feeding Swine/Pigs and the German Military)...<BR>
> > Figures, somehow...<BR>
><BR>
> I actually liked all of the military food I ate, at least the food we had<BR>
> in the field. C-Rations were good, except the ham and eggs. Nothing quite<BR>
> hit the spot like the tuna fish meal when you were very tired and hungry.<BR>
I<BR>
> even liked MREs. I don't remember any meals which stood out as being<BR>
> particularly bad the way ham and eggs did.<BR>
><BR>
> The food at mess halls is another story. I never could eat that stuff.<BR>
<BR>
That's funny I always loved the food at mess halls.  There<BR>
was always plenty of it and it was usually cooked just right.<BR>
Come to think of it, I didn't mind C-Rats or MREs either.<BR>
Hey, look, camping food!<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I'm also not one of those guys who<BR>
grumbles about his job.  Even the ones I don't like, I just<BR>
do and get away from as soon as possible.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
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Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:06:03 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
<BR>
From: Josh W. Spencer <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
> Funny...I *thought* MRE stood for "Meals Refused by Ethiopians"...;PPPPPP<BR>
<BR>
Naw, that's "Meals Rejected by Everyone."  ;-)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:09:38 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >And in *that* case, the wolves and the Vargr would be *very* well<BR>
> >integrated, not to the extent that an uplifted species would be, but<BR>
> >probably enough to seem spooky as hell to humans. The wolves would be<BR>
> >"junior partners" in Vargr society. And to the extent that Vargr work<BR>
> >together, their packmates, the wolves would work with them.<BR>
><BR>
> And can you imagine the fighting forces this would make. A squad of<BR>
> Vargrs accompanied by several wolfs capable of taking simple orders.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard's post was definitely a keeper.  It got me to thinking,<BR>
can you imagine how the interaction would affect the wolfs?<BR>
Even if you started with natural wild stock, like you find<BR>
roaming the wilds of Terra, the K9s associated with the<BR>
Vargr would tend to be larger (perhaps considerably larger)<BR>
than their wild brothers for the same reasons that humans<BR>
will live longer at TL12 or 15 than they do at TL8 or 9 or<BR>
did/do at lower TLs.  Better nutrition, both prenatal and<BR>
growing up, better medical care, especially during<BR>
puppy hood.  I could see them growing 15-25% taller and 2 to<BR>
3 times heavier naturally (or perhaps I should say nurturally),<BR>
just because of the superior food and care.   Add in a few<BR>
hundred years of unnatural selection and you would have dire<BR>
wolves (wargs) of uncommon intelligence.<BR>
<BR>
These integrated K9 units would be extremely dangerous in<BR>
anything like conventional warfare.  In Napoleonic warfare,<BR>
forget about it.  The non-K9 troops wouldn't stand a chance<BR>
even if they outnumbered the K9 units several times over.<BR>
They would also be useful in medieval style warfare (you<BR>
know, pre-gunpowder) in everything but siege situations.<BR>
<BR>
Come to think of it, such K9 units might actually do better as<BR>
low tech units with high tech support.  No guns or energy<BR>
weapons, no explosives to make noise and give their<BR>
positions away, just deadly silence until you hear the fur<BR>
singing in the wind and see your death closing on your<BR>
throat.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:28:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Jump space is certainly "between the stars". In Imperial space,<BR>
>> it's how *everyone* gets "between the stars", it's certainly part<BR>
>> of the area traversed. I don't expect a little detail like crossing<BR>
>> dimensional boundries to be something the star-spanning<BR>
>> Imperium will worry even a tenth of a second about, if it's in<BR>
>> the Imperium's percieved interest.<BR>
><BR>
> It is generally a bad idea from a public policy point of <BR>
> view for governments to claim powers they can not enforce.<BR>
<BR>
> While you are on a ship in jump space external forces can<BR>
> not reach you (barring ancient artifacts, one of which, the <BR>
> Ottem, can connect to ships in jumpspace). How can the Imperium<BR>
> control a ship they can't reach. They may be able to punish<BR>
> you later but short of posting a Marine guard on every ship<BR>
> they can _not_ enforce the laws on ships in jumpspace.<BR>
<BR>
Sure they can. <BR>
<BR>
There are no police on airplanes, you the law *is* enforced on them.<BR>
When you land, the police are waiting. Likewise, when you exit<BR>
jumpspace, you have to face whoever is the legal authority in that<BR>
system.<BR>
<BR>
99% of "law enforcement" consist of dealing with people who broke the<BR>
law when the authorities were *not* present. <BR>
<BR>
As the Supreme Court has noted, the police have to no duty to protect<BR>
individuals, rather their duty is to *catch* the perpetrators *after*<BR>
they commint crimes. And the courts then take over to punish them.<BR>
<BR>
Crimes that occur in jump space are no more "out of reach" than those<BR>
that take place anyplace else that isn't in the immediate presence of<BR>
police. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1906<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1907</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 12 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1907<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Terraforming<BR>
Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
Terraforming and Gensis (see ST)<BR>
Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
SF Comics (was re: Gaming artists...)<BR>
Space campaign PBEM<BR>
RE: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
Re:  JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1906<BR>
re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
RE: JTAS Online<BR>
RE: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
RE: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:33:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Leonard Erickson<BR>
>> Well, part of the trick is that some things don't take that long. And<BR>
>> it's possible to find "semi-suitable" planets. For example, a<BR>
>> *wonderful* colony site would be a planet where life has gotten to the<BR>
>> complex organism stage, but plants are only just starting to colonize<BR>
>> land. You'd have a breathable atmosphere, but could safely start<BR>
>> turning rock and sand into soil without worrying much about native<BR>
>> life.<BR>
> ...<BR>
>> This might explain those "garden worlds" with low populations. They are<BR>
>> *slowly* managing to expand their farmlands enough to support the<BR>
>> population, while trying to keep the native ecology out of the farm<BR>
>> areas.  <BR>
><BR>
> Keeping native and terrestrial _microbiologies_ apart would be impossible<BR>
> in the long run in this situation.  That means that anything the colonies<BR>
> export would be at least potentially contaminated.  <BR>
<BR>
So? I never said that they were *exporting* food. And frankly, that<BR>
requires a fair sized population. <BR>
<BR>
Also, the microbiology has to at least be *tolerable*. Or colonization<BR>
won't be practical. <BR>
<BR>
If the different microbiologies are merely "annoying", then you get<BR>
things like using microwaves and gamma irradiation to sterilize the<BR>
soil, and leaving a *wide* border of sterilized soil around the plots.<BR>
<BR>
It's also possible that the local bugs can't eat terrestrial "foods"<BR>
and vice-versa. Which means that only the lowest level of either<BR>
ecology can use each other for food. <BR>
<BR>
So you'd need to do the sterilizing bit, but could get by with a<BR>
narrower border, because whicever ecology is established will "choke<BR>
out" the other.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:26:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 4:33 PM, jimpeta@primus.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The only problem with the Type S for a fly-thru is that the deckplans<BR>
> don't fit in the hull. You have to move the forward hold back under the<BR>
> drive room and the upper gallery sticks right out of the hull, even after<BR>
> lowering the roof you can't get through the forward iris vavle.<BR>
> Jim<BR>
<BR>
I thought somebody fixed that? Darn.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:53:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Terraforming and Gensis (see ST)<BR>
<BR>
One thing hasn't been mentioned, though the points on<BR>
erosion are very valid: heat. Chemical reactions<BR>
either produce heat (eg burning wood, carbon plus<BR>
oxygen produces carbon dioxide and heat) or take it<BR>
away. Now, heat does dissapate away, but it doesn't<BR>
magically disappear, just spreads out. <BR>
So, for example, in Total Recall, Arnie and his<BR>
girlfriend are on the surface of Mars, suffocating,<BR>
when the atmosphere machine kicks in, and within<BR>
thirty seconds they have a breathable atmosphere, at<BR>
least in the immediate area. My question there was,<BR>
why didn't Arnie and his girl boil? The ground melt?<BR>
The simplest atmosphere machine (it seemed this is<BR>
what the Total Recall Mars machine was) would be just<BR>
big hunks of frozen oxygen (to breathe) and nitrogen<BR>
(since you can't breathe pure oxygen, it's toxic in<BR>
high doses) Melt them, and voila! breathable<BR>
atmosphere.<BR>
Without going into too much maths (poorly remembered<BR>
by me), just think of the energy needed to change a<BR>
litre of ice to a litre of steam. If you think that<BR>
energy isn't a lot, heat-wise, stick you hand on the<BR>
stove enxt time you're cooking.<BR>
So this is a reaosn you _want_ the terraforming to<BR>
take hundreds of years. You don't want to melt the<BR>
planet!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: is there a "Genesis Project" machine in<BR>
anyone's Trav universe? It seems to me the Klingons<BR>
were right: it _could_ be a terrible weapon. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:46:01 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
<BR>
There are several ways I see that this product could be done useing stock<BR>
products:<BR>
1.License a capable game-engine like Half-Life.<BR>
  a.BENEFITS<BR>
    1)Full movement anywhere within the ship in real time.<BR>
    2)Actions undertaken can make lights come on, doors open, etc.<BR>
    3)You could actually use them as a level for the game.  Can you say<BR>
"Aliens in an AHL"?  >:D  Of course, you couldn't actually use Aliens<BR>
aliens, as those are a licensed product, but you could have something else<BR>
infesting the ship like Chamanx or other critters.<BR>
    4)Most immersive environment possible.<BR>
  b.DETRACTORS<BR>
    1)Cross platform compatibility might be a problem.<BR>
    2)Some game engines make people motion-sick (I'm one of them for about<BR>
95% of the game engines out there).<BR>
    3)Cost of a good game engine that has lots of capabilities, such as the<BR>
Half-Life engine, may be prohibitive.  This would have to be explored with<BR>
the companies involved.  If the walkthroughs were released as Half-Life<BR>
LEVELS, then licensing may not be needed, but that would require purchasers<BR>
to also have a copy of Half-Life.  Half-Life levels can be created with the<BR>
Worldcraft software that's included on the Half-Life CD.<BR>
<BR>
2.VRML<BR>
  a.BENEFITS - Uh, I don't know.  Never liked VRML.<BR>
  b.DETRACTORS<BR>
    1)VRML never reached mass support.<BR>
    2)Really slow.  In order to have a fully textured, beautiful<BR>
environment, would take more hardware than ANYONE has, short of SGI.<BR>
    3)Movement is clunky, and can pass through walls leaving the user lost.<BR>
<BR>
3.Panoramic Software such as QuicktimeVR or RealityStudio<BR>
  a.BENEFITS<BR>
    1)Generates HTML pages with panoramas that allow you to pan and tilt<BR>
around the room, looking at everything.<BR>
    2)Can have hotspots for clicking to take you to next room, or more<BR>
closely exploring something.  Also includes being able to click on an<BR>
individual object like an artifact or piece of equipment, and moving it<BR>
around in 360 degrees of any axis.<BR>
    3)Cross Platform for both software titles.<BR>
  b.DETRACTORS<BR>
    1)Limited screen size.<BR>
    2)Limited movement.  You can "walk around" inside the ship, you click<BR>
from room to room, then look around.<BR>
<BR>
A copy of Half-Life costs ~$40 USD.  RealityStudio is ~$200.  Unfortunately,<BR>
I have no idea how much the QTVR authoring tools are.<BR>
<BR>
There you have it.  Hard choices.<BR>
The trade-offs summarized:<BR>
1.Compatibility - While the majority of folks use either Windows or Mac<BR>
based machines, there are plenty of folks out there with Linux, etc.<BR>
2.Cost - Whether a)licensed game engine, b)released as a level which leads<BR>
to further cost for the consumer, or c)purchasing panoramic software of one<BR>
type or another, there is cost involved for either the consumer, SJG, or the<BR>
artists creating the content.<BR>
3.Perceived Value of the Product - Game engine gives most fluid exploration<BR>
and movement, while the panoramic software has better cross platform ability<BR>
as the cost of movement and screen size.<BR>
<BR>
Let's get some feedback going!  What would the customer, i.e. you folks on<BR>
the TML, like to see?<BR>
<BR>
Also, if anyone has any more detailed information or other ideas about<BR>
solutions, by all means please share!!  :)<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Business-related question: I am considering a possible product that would<BR>
> involve "walkthroughs" of one or more ships (Beowulf of course, possible<BR>
> Marava, maybe AHL in our wildest dreams -- and I don't mean Austin Hockey<BR>
> League) that would be sold on a CD. I'm sure there are programs<BR>
> that could<BR>
> accomplish this, but my ignorance of the field is immense, so I'd<BR>
> like some<BR>
> informed technical advice -- we'd need some kind of really cheap<BR>
> license for<BR>
> whatever program we use. I thought it might be nice to do a 3-d<BR>
> walkthrough<BR>
> of a Brubek's also, just for giggles. Please send responses to<BR>
> lkw@io.com --<BR>
> no point in taking up space here on the TML. Jesse: I've asked you this<BR>
> before, I think: feel free to respond again -- I suspect you'll<BR>
> be "involved"<BR>
> in the project somehow. ; - )<BR>
><BR>
> A private question: Has anyone ever tried to order any GDW stuff through<BR>
> Amazon-dot-com? I did a search of my name (for grins) and several titles<BR>
> (mostly Twilight: 2000) are still showing up as "available 2-3<BR>
> days" rather<BR>
> than "out of print." Reason is ask is related to greed: I'm thinking of<BR>
> getting author/associate status with them, because I'd get a kickback for<BR>
> books I've written sold from a button on my website. When GDW<BR>
> closed down we<BR>
> sold every Twilight: 2000 book in the warehouse into the<BR>
> distribution chain<BR>
> (also every Traveller book -- nothing from either of those lines<BR>
> went to the<BR>
> paper salvage company) -- but I am amazed that 4-5 years down the<BR>
> line they<BR>
> are still in the system.<BR>
><BR>
> Loren Wiseman<BR>
>      GDW Emeritus, class of 1973<BR>
>      SJ Games Emigre, class of '98<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:57:24 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: SF Comics (was re: Gaming artists...)<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
>Oh, and there are few good comics for Traveller plots as well, the original<BR>
>"A Distant Soil", "Six from Sirius", "Alien Legion", "Grimjack" , "Nexus",<BR>
>"Dirty Pair".<BR>
<BR>
And don't forget:<BR>
<BR>
"Buck Godot, Zapgun for Hire"!!<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:04:27 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Space campaign PBEM<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I'd like volunteers, please, to help me playtest<BR>
by PBEM some material for my regular space campaign<BR>
(not Traveller). I am hopeless with web pages, but can<BR>
send whatever info is desired... Anyone who has time<BR>
or interest in this I invote to write me off-list...<BR>
<BR>
THE ROYAL MARINES NEED YOU!<BR>
The Commonwealth of Worlds, a realm of prosperity and<BR>
freedom, needs good women and men to defend it from<BR>
the depredations of the Federation, DeutschRaum and<BR>
all others who seek to destroy our enlightened way of<BR>
life!<BR>
Do something for yourself - be all that you can be -<BR>
it's not just a job, it's a way of life. Every meal a<BR>
banquet, every paycheque a fortune, every formation a parade!<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:01:15 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
General handwave via TML voting during creation of my 3D Sulieman was that<BR>
the upper deck's ceiling sloped down in a non-standard deck height, while<BR>
the lower deck's floor sloped up, also giving a non-standard height.  Some<BR>
suggested the main deck be thinner as well.  These handwaves allow<BR>
reasonable deckplans, while keeping the silhouette of the ship closer to<BR>
that of CT, MT, & TNE.  In the main G:T book, the side view shown has full<BR>
height decks, making a ludicrous provile compared to classic canon<BR>
illustrations.  You can seen the differences at my site useing the following<BR>
link:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/traveller_gallery.htm<BR>
<BR>
Scroll down to the TML Suliman Survey, and follow the link.  The ship shown<BR>
was created useing the sideview shown in the G:T book.  General TML<BR>
consensus was that this sucked :) so I went with the more conventional<BR>
outline which you can see in the Scout ship pictures in that gallery.<BR>
<BR>
YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm<BR>
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe"  (tm)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Benyamene'<BR>
> ZeAbe' Akella<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 5:27 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 4:33 PM, jimpeta@primus.com.au wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > The only problem with the Type S for a fly-thru is that the deckplans<BR>
> > don't fit in the hull. You have to move the forward hold back under the<BR>
> > drive room and the upper gallery sticks right out of the hull,<BR>
> even after<BR>
> > lowering the roof you can't get through the forward iris vavle.<BR>
> > Jim<BR>
><BR>
> I thought somebody fixed that? Darn.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:26:06 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
Dear Loren Wiseman:<BR>
<BR>
While someone else may have undertaken to answer your<BR>
open request, I will give you my take on the concerns<BR>
expressed by members of the TML concerning the JTAS<BR>
copyright question.  AFAIK, most have no problems with<BR>
granting the first electronic publication rights, nor even<BR>
archival rights, as this is standard ops for mailing lists and<BR>
message boards.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that what most people are bothered by are being<BR>
required to specifically retain the rest of the copyrights by<BR>
adding a disclaimer to that effect.  If I were posting to the<BR>
JTAS discussion board, I would have to add something like<BR>
this:<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
All unquoted material in this post is  copyright 2000 by<BR>
Jason Theophilos Barnabas.<BR>
<BR>
First electronic publication and electronic archival rights<BR>
are hereby granted to the JTAS Discussion Board.<BR>
<BR>
The right to quote in part or in whole in order to respond to<BR>
my post is hereby granted to all subscribers of the JTAS<BR>
Discussion Board.<BR>
<BR>
All other rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
to all my posts, simply to reserve my right to be able to use<BR>
an idea that I came up with at any time in the future.  Not only<BR>
that, but because of the way the agreement is currently<BR>
worded, I would think very carefully before posting anything.<BR>
<BR>
I don't believe that JTAS or SJGames has any intent to "rip<BR>
off" my intellectual property, but when it comes to contracts,<BR>
one is not bound by the intent of the  contract, only the<BR>
words which make it.  Just like the spirit of the law is not<BR>
binding, only the letter.  Several have been burned by<BR>
previous suppliers of Traveller stuff and remember that old<BR>
saw, "Burn me once, shame on you.  Burn me twice, shame<BR>
on me."<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the above copyright notice is exactly what one gives<BR>
up in order to post to a mailing list, no more, no less.  If there<BR>
is something more that SJGames wants to secure, it should<BR>
be elaborated in the agreement.  If SJGames wants to be<BR>
able to offer the contents of the posts in a searchable<BR>
database online, that is already included in the right to<BR>
archive.  On the other hand, if SJGames wants to be able to<BR>
compile the list into a searchable database and sell it on CD<BR>
along with a custom browser, then that right should be<BR>
reserved in the agreement.  AFAICT, most people wouldn't<BR>
mind that.  If you want to be able to keep people from taking<BR>
you to court over similarities between works that are<BR>
published by SJGames and something that they may have<BR>
posted, then in the agreement, you could include words like,<BR>
"SJGames agrees not to use the posted ideas without<BR>
permission provided the poster agrees not to bring suit over<BR>
similarities between works that might be published by<BR>
SJGames and any message posted.  Further poster agrees<BR>
to binding arbitration to settle any disputes arising out of this<BR>
portion of the Agreement."  The agreement should say<BR>
exactly what SJGames wants.  As it is, you are saying,<BR>
"SJGames wants everything.  Post and be damned."<BR>
<BR>
AFAICT, these are the only concerns expressed publicly by<BR>
TMLers.<BR>
<BR>
Sincerely,<BR>
Jason Barnabas<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 1:22 PM<BR>
Subject: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Gentles,<BR>
><BR>
> Could someone do me the favor of preparing a short summary of the concerns<BR>
> over the JTAS subscriber agreement and copyrights to messages on the<BR>
> discussion boards? I am preparing a FAQ, and I will submit this question<BR>
to<BR>
> Steve for his personal reply.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Loren Wiseman<BR>
>      Traveller Line Manager<BR>
>      Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
>      Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society<BR>
>           http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
>      SJ Games<BR>
>      LKW@IO.COM<BR>
>      (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
>      (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 21:42:17 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1906<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:09:38 -0800<BR>
>From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
<BR>
>Come to think of it, such K9 units might actually do better as<BR>
>low tech units with high tech support.  No guns or energy<BR>
>weapons, no explosives to make noise and give their<BR>
>positions away, just deadly silence until you hear the fur<BR>
>singing in the wind and see your death closing on your<BR>
>throat.<BR>
>- --<BR>
>Jason<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Maybe the first couple of kills against a unit would be silent.<BR>
Then give the opposition time to find the mauled bodies of<BR>
their comrades. After that and the occasional howl will have<BR>
a wonderfully demoralizing effect. (Though if one of your opponents<BR>
is wearing a greay cloak with a pointy hood watch out for fire.)<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vaca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
  - Bart Caeser<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 21:36:36 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>It is generally a bad idea from a public policy point of <BR>
>view for governments to claim powers they can not enforce.<BR>
><BR>
>While you are on a ship in jump space external forces can<BR>
>not reach you...<BR>
<BR>
No problem there. It is a rare crime that occurs while a policeman<BR>
is right there watching, the vast majority of criminals are caught and<BR>
punished after the fact and away from the scene.<BR>
<BR>
Not having a cop on board a ship in jump space is just as much<BR>
a problem as not having a cop on board a ship in normal space - <BR>
you are still a long time away from a cop showing up, they'll have<BR>
to track down the criminal and bring him to justice later.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>Trying, and failing, to enforce some laws tends to encourage<BR>
>people to break other laws. Therefore if the Imperium attempts<BR>
>to enforce the law in jump space it will lead to more crime<BR>
>in normal space.<BR>
<BR>
Where did you get the idea that the only way to enforce a law is<BR>
to keep people always under your eyes? Laws in most of the world<BR>
today aren't enforced that way - they are enforced through fear of <BR>
being captured and punished *afterwards* (not to mention social<BR>
pressures).<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>The planets are located in the same universe as the Imperium<BR>
>while the ships in jump space are not.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt that any Imperial agent would give a damn what universe your<BR>
ship was in. They probably just consider jump space to be a special<BR>
part of this universe anyway, especially if this interpretation places<BR>
fewer limits on their actions.<BR>
<BR>
Think of this: if there did happen to be an Imperial agent on board a<BR>
ship in jump space, would he believe that his authority to enforce the<BR>
Emperor's will (and the personal power he gains from that authority)<BR>
just switched off the moment the ship jumped? <BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>Age of sail captains could get away with murder. Traveller<BR>
>resembles the age of sail. Therefore ship captain's should<BR>
>be able to get away with murder. If they can only "almost" get<BR>
>with murder than it is less than true to its influences.<BR>
<BR>
"Resembles" quite explicitly does *not* mean "the same in every<BR>
detail". Your idea that Traveller resembles the age of sail proves<BR>
nothing about the OTU, it only provides a starting point and inspirations<BR>
for YTU, which is by the way just fine. I'm just trying to point out<BR>
some possible side-effects.<BR>
<BR>
If there are two ships in port, one of which has agreed to follow Imperial<BR>
law, the other has agreed to follow a set of laws that give the Captain the<BR>
right to kill you, eat your liver and take your cargo, which one will get<BR>
the contract to carry the MCr10/ton cyberbetic brains, and which one<BR>
will be lucky to get a load of grain?<BR>
<BR>
It is **profitable** to have a common set of rules and expectations.<BR>
Even if a large part of your company spends all it's time figuring out<BR>
how to get around these rules, not having a common ground for this<BR>
kind of thing gets very expensive indeed.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:39:25 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
>General handwave via TML voting during creation of my 3D Sulieman was that<BR>
>the upper deck's ceiling sloped down in a non-standard deck height, while<BR>
>the lower deck's floor sloped up, also giving a non-standard height.  Some<BR>
>suggested the main deck be thinner as well.  These handwaves allow<BR>
>reasonable deckplans, while keeping the silhouette of the ship closer to<BR>
>that of CT, MT, & TNE.  In the main G:T book, the side view shown has full<BR>
>height decks, making a ludicrous provile compared to classic canon<BR>
>illustrations.  You can seen the differences at my site useing the<BR>
following<BR>
>link:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/traveller_gallery.htm<BR>
><BR>
>Scroll down to the TML Suliman Survey, and follow the link.  The ship shown<BR>
>was created useing the sideview shown in the G:T book.  General TML<BR>
>consensus was that this sucked :) so I went with the more conventional<BR>
>outline which you can see in the Scout ship pictures in that gallery.<BR>
>YMMV.<BR>
>Best,<BR>
>Jesse<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, the type-S isn't hard to come up with working plans from<BR>
what's presented in Traders and Gunboats.<BR>
1, Move the hatch in the cargobay forward into the little vestibule shaped<BR>
space, align that with the deck hatch in front of the drive room door [11 on<BR>
the plans]. (This moves the cargo bay back into the thicker tail area, I<BR>
think it was supposed to be there in the first place but it was moved<BR>
forward for plan clarity)<BR>
2,  Delete areas [18] and [19], there is no way they can fit in the hull.<BR>
Make area [16] triangular shaped and cram the commo/survey gear in there.<BR>
3,  Just in front of the landing gear [10] areas place a small airlock on<BR>
either side, with the floor being a lift and a hatch in the roof.<BR>
    Now the whole thing fits in the hull, I drew a variant on paper that had<BR>
the drives pushed to the side where [13] and [14] are and a two level<BR>
payload bay hwere the drive room is now. I'll back engineer the MT version<BR>
and see how much I can fit in and eventually put it up on my site.<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:44:33 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS Online<BR>
<BR>
> > You can't modify a CD-R once written to, even in a CD-RW drive,<BR>
> > though you can 'hide' already written tracks and files by removing<BR>
> > them from the "directory" thus modifying the 'appearance' of the CD<BR>
><BR>
> Which makes them "WORM" (Write-Once, Read Many) media. Type 2.<BR>
<BR>
While you're correct that "Write Once, Read Many" is a good description of<BR>
what CD-R gives you, a WORM drive is not a CD-R drive, they are different<BR>
technology.<BR>
<BR>
WORM drives were available before CD-R, and did not use a CD-style media.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:52:15 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
<BR>
> Did anyone else buy into the offer at AS&S for 5 RPG supplements for $5?<BR>
<BR>
Nah, they won't sell overseas or I'd have ordered two and a bucketful of<BR>
dice.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:19:05 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
<BR>
> There are several ways I see that this product could be done useing stock<BR>
> products:<BR>
> 1.License a capable game-engine like Half-Life.<BR>
>   a.BENEFITS<BR>
>     1)Full movement anywhere within the ship in real time.<BR>
>     2)Actions undertaken can make lights come on, doors open, etc.<BR>
>     3)You could actually use them as a level for the game.  Can you say<BR>
> "Aliens in an AHL"?  >:D  Of course, you couldn't actually use Aliens<BR>
> aliens, as those are a licensed product, but you could have something else<BR>
> infesting the ship like Chamanx or other critters.<BR>
>     4)Most immersive environment possible.<BR>
<BR>
>   b.DETRACTORS<BR>
>     1)Cross platform compatibility might be a problem.<BR>
<BR>
Quake is available on the major platforms (Linux, Windows, Playstation) and<BR>
with the release of the Quake software coming up, it can be made available<BR>
on the other platorms if people want it.<BR>
<BR>
>     2)Some game engines make people motion-sick (I'm one of them for about<BR>
> 95% of the game engines out there).<BR>
>     3)Cost of a good game engine that has lots of capabilities,<BR>
> such as theHalf-Life engine, may be prohibitive.<BR>
<BR>
You don't neccessarily need to license the game engine, just the level<BR>
designer.<BR>
If you use Quake, you can freely distribute maps made by the Quake designer<BR>
you can get free from Id.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> 2.VRML<BR>
>   a.BENEFITS - Uh, I don't know.  Never liked VRML.<BR>
<BR>
Cross platform availability, a standard, freeware viewers available.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>   b.DETRACTORS<BR>
>     1)VRML never reached mass support.<BR>
>     2)Really slow.  In order to have a fully textured, beautiful<BR>
> environment, would take more hardware than ANYONE has, short of SGI.<BR>
>     3)Movement is clunky, and can pass through walls leaving the<BR>
> user lost.<BR>
<BR>
> 3.Panoramic Software such as QuicktimeVR or RealityStudio<BR>
>   a.BENEFITS<BR>
>     1)Generates HTML pages with panoramas that allow you to pan and tilt<BR>
> around the room, looking at everything.<BR>
>     2)Can have hotspots for clicking to take you to next room, or more<BR>
> closely exploring something.  Also includes being able to click on an<BR>
> individual object like an artifact or piece of equipment, and moving it<BR>
> around in 360 degrees of any axis.<BR>
>     3)Cross Platform for both software titles.<BR>
>   b.DETRACTORS<BR>
>     1)Limited screen size.<BR>
>     2)Limited movement.  You can "walk around" inside the ship, you click<BR>
> from room to room, then look around.<BR>
><BR>
> A copy of Half-Life costs ~$40 USD.  RealityStudio is ~$200.<BR>
> Unfortunately, I have no idea how much the QTVR authoring tools are.<BR>
<BR>
Also both are propietary software, and not particulalry good looking.<BR>
(At least, I haven't seen any that coulnd't have been done better as a Quake<BR>
level.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> There you have it.  Hard choices.<BR>
> The trade-offs summarized:<BR>
> 1.Compatibility - While the majority of folks use either Windows or Mac<BR>
> based machines, there are plenty of folks out there with Linux, etc.<BR>
<BR>
That means either VRML or Quake is the best bet.<BR>
<BR>
> 2.Cost - Whether a)licensed game engine, b)released as a level which leads<BR>
> to further cost for the consumer, or c)purchasing panoramic<BR>
> software of one<BR>
> type or another, there is cost involved for either the consumer,<BR>
> SJG, or the<BR>
> artists creating the content.<BR>
<BR>
> 3.Perceived Value of the Product - Game engine gives most fluid<BR>
> exploration and movement, while the panoramic software has better<BR>
> cross platform ability as the cost of movement and screen size.<BR>
<BR>
Problem as I see it is that there is probably little percieved value to the<BR>
product. You can get similar things on the web already for free.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps if it had superb detailing, or had a large number of ships, and came<BR>
with sets of skins for Imperial Marines and Navy personnel, etc, it might be<BR>
a worthwhile product, but it would have to be good, and the price would have<BR>
to be  right as well.<BR>
<BR>
> Let's get some feedback going!  What would the customer, i.e. you folks on<BR>
> the TML, like to see?<BR>
<BR>
I'd prefer Quake maps.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1907<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1908</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 13 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1908<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Circus Spies<BR>
Re: Guys with Bad Names<BR>
RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1900<BR>
Re: Robots<BR>
Re: Rank names <BR>
Re Imperial Law<BR>
Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Mottoes<BR>
Re: Robots<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 22:19:05 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Circus Spies<BR>
<BR>
At 05:59 PM 2/11/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> > "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:<BR>
> > > > >And just *think* of the fun that could be created by dropping<BR>
> > > > >Cletus Grahame into the Imperium. :-)<BR>
> > > > I've often thought that.<BR>
> > >Been there, done that.<BR>
> > >The Dorsai finally got "disbanded" by the Imperium as just too damn<BR>
> > >dangerous to have on sale, and were 'volunteered' into a clandestine<BR>
> > >Imperial espionage unit that travelled the Imperium disguised as a<BR>
> > >circus.....<BR>
> > E.E. "Doc" Smith had a similar idea.  Never got past the notes stage before<BR>
> > his death.  Somebody wrote a half dozen or so novels based on his notes for<BR>
> > the "Family D'Albert", who run the most famous circus in the Galaxy and are<BR>
> > also Intelligence operatives reporting directly the Emperor's head of <BR>
> Security.<BR>
>Wasn't that Cordwainer Smith? I _know_ I've read stories similar to this<BR>
>a long time ago...<BR>
<BR>
Digging into the foot locker that holds the old stuff (most of my Doc <BR>
Savage collection, the pre-movie Star Wars books, etc), I find<BR>
<BR>
"Imperial Stars", #1 in the Family D'Alembert Series<BR>
Author listed as E.E. "Doc" Smith with Stephen Goldin<BR>
Copyright 1976 by Verna Smith Trestrall<BR>
<BR>
I've got about a half dozen of the series<BR>
#2 Stranglers' Moon<BR>
#3 The Clockwork Traitor<BR>
#4 Getaway World<BR>
#5 Appointment at Bloodstar<BR>
#6 The Purity Plot<BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure more were published.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for<BR>
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:31:41 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Guys with Bad Names<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 00:37:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I met a soldier who was a private, but his first name was Sar. IIRC, it was<BR>
>> actually Sarge... The last name was unpronounceable to one who can<BR>
>> pronounce russian.... but was some slavik voweless name ending in ski.<BR>
>> Quite a start, when first I met him to see "Sarge" in slicksleeves.<BR>
><BR>
>Sargeant is a not *that* uncommon last name in some paerts of the US.<BR>
>Which could lead to interesting problems.<BR>
><BR>
>BTW, anybody recall the *old* bootcamp tale about this real Sargeant's<BR>
>Sargeant haranging the new recruits.. "I'm Sgt. Stone and I'm just as<BR>
>hard as my name..." and the poor wimp of a recruit who just *had* to be<BR>
>the first one whose name he asked "Private Stonebreaker, sir..." :-)<BR>
<BR>
I knew a Staff Sergeant Sergeant. He told me that in basic the TI's<BR>
called him Airman Dirtbag because they refused to call him Sergeant.<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:46:25 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
 Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<snip><BR>
> The agreement should say<BR>
> exactly what SJGames wants.  As it is, you are saying,<BR>
> "SJGames wants everything.  Post and be damned."<BR>
><BR>
> AFAICT, these are the only concerns expressed publicly by<BR>
> TMLers.<BR>
<BR>
What he said !<BR>
<BR>
Good summary, Jason.<BR>
<BR>
The only things I'd add is that the 'agreement' as currently worded, (and in<BR>
fact just about any possible agreement) really doesn't give much more<BR>
protection than not having the agreement, as someone could easily post<BR>
something to the SJG discussion group which _they_ didn't write, or which<BR>
they co-wrote, and therefore could not legally relinquish copyright on.<BR>
<BR>
For instance, I could post something I wrote with a friend, and _unless_ the<BR>
post also contained an explicit release from my friend, he could still, even<BR>
if he was also a member of the discussion group, succesfully sue SJG if they<BR>
appeared to use anything from the post.<BR>
<BR>
Of course this could also be used as a tactic by anyone who wanted to sue to<BR>
negate the effect of SJG's agreement in a way that could not be disproved in<BR>
court without the 'friend' being turned to SJG's side.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:34:24<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
At 11:10 PM 2/12/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>> The Bread Pudding Game: Rules<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Take the name of a book, film, well known phrase etc, and replace a<BR>
>> keyword or phrase with 'Bread Pudding'<BR>
<BR>
Starburst for Extreme Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Norris, Archduke of Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
The Bread Pudding of Man<BR>
<BR>
Adventure 3: Twilight's Bread Pudding<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:35:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
At 05:07 PM 2/12/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And then there is my married name.... people just don't want to believe <BR>
>that our last name is just like the money, so its just automatic to say <BR>
>'just like the money' when I'm giving my name to anyone.<BR>
<BR>
"Berry, as in in Straw or Blue."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:40:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
<BR>
At 05:06 PM 2/12/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Funny...I *thought* MRE stood for "Meals Refused by Ethiopians"...;PPPPPP<BR>
><BR>
>Naw, that's "Meals Rejected by Everyone."  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
MREs were first issued when the Ethiopian famine was big news, Bob Geldof<BR>
guilting rocks stars into the record studio, etc. So we did call them Meal<BR>
Rejected by Ethiopeans. When the crisis faded, it was changed to "Everyone".<BR>
<BR>
I used to drive by an Ethiopean resturant in San Jose every day, and I<BR>
always wondered what the hell they served?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 04:06:06 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 19:34:24, "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 11:10 PM 2/12/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>>Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>>> The Bread Pudding Game: Rules<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Take the name of a book, film, well known phrase etc, and replace a<BR>
>>> keyword or phrase with 'Bread Pudding'<BR>
><BR>
>Starburst for Extreme Bread Pudding<BR>
><BR>
>Norris, Archduke of Bread Pudding<BR>
><BR>
>The Bread Pudding of Man<BR>
><BR>
>Adventure 3: Twilight's Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Twilight: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Fire, Fusion, & Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding Conspiracy<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding: The Masquerade<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding: The Apocalypse<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding Designer's Workshop<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 04:12:16 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:21:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:37:03 -0500 (EST), you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:44:27<BR>
>>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>>>Subject: Honey, I'm home!!!!<BR>
>><BR>
>>>I'm back, and panicked.<BR>
>><BR>
>>>Anybody have good sidebar ideas for Ground Forces? I am really stuck here.<BR>
>><BR>
>> History - or notable episodes therefrom - of 'well known' units.<BR>
>> Especially when they illustrate the unit at their finest in<BR>
>> carrying out the mission of the ground forces.  Or when they<BR>
>> illustrate them at their worst in fouling it up...<BR>
>><BR>
>> Anecdotes about the rivalries between the ground forces and other<BR>
>> arms.<BR>
><BR>
>How about a couple showing that "low TL" is *not* equivalent to "fresh<BR>
>meat". And that sometimes Hi TL troops can be utterly useless against<BR>
>low TL natives.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC there's a Heinlien quote along this line about verniers and stone<BR>
axes.<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:12:48 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1900<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-02-11 15:13:05 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< You know what I'd like to see? The first four adventures from the T2K<BR>
 series combined into one book. From Free City of Krakow to The Balck<BR>
 Madonna. I still run those from time to time. >><BR>
<BR>
I don't have any control over those any more. ISPs sold several years ago <BR>
(and paid my rent for two years, if you're interested)<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 22:39:25 -0600<BR>
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net> wrote<BR>
<snip><BR>
>> Good so far, but let's add an Imperial Regulation for starship safety<BR>
<BR>
>> for the non-routine situations. Requiring that the following<BR>
positions<BR>
>> be filled with sentient crew:<BR>
><BR>
>Don't say sentient, say living, the Imperium does not<BR>
>recognize robots as sentient even of they are.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I had to edit it before I sent it because I had originally written<BR>
"human" and decided sentient would have been the proper term used by<BR>
government.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>  Captain,<BR>
><BR>
>Yes the Captains _got_ to be sentient since he's legally<BR>
>responsible for the ship. He can't assume that responsibility<BR>
>if he's not sentient.<BR>
><BR>
>> Chief Pilot, Astrogator, and Chief Engineer.<BR>
><BR>
>Notice these are the three people who get you into<BR>
>jumpspace, so the reason (or rationalization) might<BR>
>be jumpspace safety related, even though I have<BR>
>indicated above that the robots are actually safer<BR>
>as well as cheaper.<BR>
><BR>
>The canon rules do not support the canon sophont<BR>
>crew.<BR>
><BR>
>> required positions.  Add in regs from planets and merchant guilds<BR>
>> requiring the Chief Steward to be sentient if High Passages are<BR>
offered,<BR>
>> and you require the majority of PC ships to be light on robots even<BR>
at<BR>
>> TL15.<BR>
><BR>
>I'd suggest making this a negative DM to number of<BR>
>High Passengers rather than a regulation against robotic<BR>
>chief stewards.<BR>
><BR>
This is also a good way of handling this. I had it listed as planetary<BR>
and guild regs because I did not think that the Imperium would interfere<BR>
here and wanted a way to impose intermitant sanctions against the PCs.<BR>
<BR>
>It is possible, and even probable, that most Imperial<BR>
>regulations against robotic starship crew members come<BR>
>from the early Imperium before the achievement of TL 13,<BR>
>since TL 13 is required of robots capable of functioning<BR>
>at the High Autonomous level and their are legitimate safety<BR>
>arguments against having ships crew who can not use their<BR>
>own judgment in an emergency.<BR>
><BR>
agreed<BR>
<BR>
>One possible way to discourage robot crew would be to<BR>
>say that all ships with any robot crew must have one<BR>
>or more roboticsts/robot operators on board. Use the<BR>
>"medical personnel" rule to figure out how many are<BR>
>required. Round _up_ for number of roboticists<BR>
>required since, unlike living beings, robots can not<BR>
>normally heal on their own. Therefore they need a<BR>
>roboticist. Obviously said law will forbid the roboticist<BR>
>from itself being a robot.<BR>
><BR>
>If you require Robotics-2 to be Imperially certified for<BR>
>this position you can stop most PC ships from having any<BR>
>robots since Robotics skill is fairly scarce amongst<BR>
>most PC's (not counting Dr. Krenstein).<BR>
<BR>
agreed<BR>
<BR>
Charles R Hensley<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:09:05 +1100<BR>
From: "AB" <ab@rossmack.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank names <BR>
<BR>
I have used a Third Imperium holovid action hero:  Arnold Stallone<BR>
<BR>
When GM-ing I sometimes use anagrams for NPC names.<BR>
<BR>
eg:  A drunken medical officer encountered by the PC's is called Carl<BR>
Doolich (alcoholic Dr), a cowardly former member of the Navy is Vaneser<BR>
Rextedy (ex-navy deserter).<BR>
<BR>
Warning to players subscribing to TML:  Sometimes I don't.<BR>
<BR>
- -AB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:09:01 -0600<BR>
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>> And proof the<BR>
>>> accused is not an imperial noble, for who a jury of nobles must be<BR>
>>> convened, or a citizen, who must be allowed to appeal to the Baron<BR>
and<BR>
>>> Subsector dukes. Subjects, however, may not be so protected, so long<BR>
as<BR>
>>> they are on their home world.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Are you suggesting that the Imperium is cleverly promoting<BR>
>>Interstellar travel by ensuring that people have more rights<BR>
>>on another planet then they would on their home planet?<BR>
>><BR>
>It is implied, but nowhere is it explicit. Supplement 4 sort of implies<BR>
it,<BR>
>by having only certain careers.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
It is also implied by the Social Standing curve.  SS for Imperial<BR>
Citizens follows a bell-like curve while the "Real World" (and thus<BR>
subject curve) should follow a chi-squared-like curve.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, The chirpers on Vanjeen are clearly NOT imperial citizens, nor<BR>
are<BR>
>the droyne worlds, but they ARE subjects, and hence subject to imperial<BR>
<BR>
>laws.<BR>
><BR>
>And, it does promote travel!<BR>
><BR>
>I make the distinction to provide additional plot complications. Simply<BR>
<BR>
>put, by having the citizen/subject distinction, it encourages persons<BR>
to<BR>
>imperial services (and approved civil jobs) at sub-standard pay. Once a<BR>
<BR>
>citizen, your right to travel, right to due process, and right to<BR>
appeal to<BR>
>the nobility are secured, and protected. Subjects, on the other hand,<BR>
are<BR>
>chattel of their world government... with one exception there: you can<BR>
take<BR>
>imperial service in order to become a citizen, and thus no longer<BR>
chattel<BR>
>of your homeworld's government.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU citizenship is bought. So if someone wants to be an Imperial<BR>
citizen they must pay for citizenship or find someone to pay for them.<BR>
The upper classes can afford to buy citizenship and are thus over<BR>
represented in Imperial society.  Those who cannot afford to buy<BR>
citizenship thus look for jobs that will buy the citizenship for them<BR>
with the largest being the Imperial Government (Navy, Scouts, Marines,<BR>
and Army) and the Merchants.  This will also explain the draft, as those<BR>
who cannot afford citizenship and cannot hire-on, can apply to the draft<BR>
and get citizenship that way and loosing the oppritunity for promotion<BR>
during the first term.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:03:30 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
At 19:22 12.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
<BR>
Gashimeku kaalariin.<BR>
:-)<BR>
At least this is what Solomani say...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:32:13 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
That disclaimer is much, much more than is necessary<BR>
to protect all the rights you're trying to.  The below<BR>
examples will suffice:<BR>
<BR>
 -  2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
  - Copyright 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
The other rights you wish to preserve and give are all<BR>
kept or given in the way you want by the act of your<BR>
posting them and the subscriber agreement.<BR>
<BR>
Anything more is a waste of bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
DISCLAIMER:  I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer.<BR>
If you need or want a lawyer, hire one.  The info posted<BR>
is true to the best of my current knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
"Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> I suspect that what most people are bothered by are being<BR>
> required to specifically retain the rest of the copyrights by<BR>
> adding a disclaimer to that effect.  If I were posting to the<BR>
> JTAS discussion board, I would have to add something like<BR>
> this:<BR>
> ______________________________________________<BR>
> All unquoted material in this post is  copyright 2000 by<BR>
> Jason Theophilos Barnabas.<BR>
><BR>
> First electronic publication and electronic archival rights<BR>
> are hereby granted to the JTAS Discussion Board.<BR>
><BR>
> The right to quote in part or in whole in order to respond to<BR>
> my post is hereby granted to all subscribers of the JTAS<BR>
> Discussion Board.<BR>
><BR>
> All other rights reserved.<BR>
> <BR>
> to all my posts, simply to reserve my right to be able to use<BR>
> an idea that I came up with at any time in the future.  Not only<BR>
> that, but because of the way the agreement is currently<BR>
> worded, I would think very carefully before posting anything.<BR>
<BR>
Copyright doesn't protect ideas.  It protects particular expressions<BR>
of ideas.  If your idea doesn't qualify for a patent, its FREE GAME.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:35:59 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For instance, I could post something I wrote with a friend, and _unless_ the<BR>
> post also contained an explicit release from my friend, he could still, even<BR>
> if he was also a member of the discussion group, succesfully sue SJG if they<BR>
> appeared to use anything from the post.<BR>
<BR>
Nope.<BR>
<BR>
Section G also says:<BR>
"Likewise, you must respect the ownership rights of others in their own messages<BR>
<BR>
and files. You may not post or transfer any messages or files unless you own<BR>
them,<BR>
or you have full authority to transmit them to this system."<BR>
<BR>
Legalese Translation:  Post your friends stuff and YOU have violated his<BR>
copyright, not SJG.  This effectively immunizes SJG from contributing to<BR>
your infringement.  This is a protective measure to prevent the scenario<BR>
you describe.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:40:08 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/12/00 5:29:14 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Are there any similar mottoes that<BR>
 have lasted anything quite as long?<BR>
 <BR>
 Matt >><BR>
<BR>
Morituri te Salutamus<BR>
<BR>
    "What did he say?"<BR>
        "He said he's going to kick our ass!"<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the rampant American-based egotism. I'm an American, I've got a <BR>
big ego, I'd like to think the values I believe my country represents would <BR>
last that far into the future. This is not meant as an insult or anything to <BR>
any other nation, it's just that I've never lived anywhere else, and have no <BR>
real desire to.<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:14:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Joseph Kimball" <jekimball@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots<BR>
<BR>
This sounds like the way to do it.  This way you might well have dumb robots<BR>
working on assembly lines (like now), and for the masses, you might have a<BR>
simple one to do vacuuming.  Those who are well off might be able to afford<BR>
a significantly better robot to do all the cleaning ("I'm sorry sir, but my<BR>
programming does not allow me to clean windows.").  To get a robot with<BR>
enough skill to replace a sentient at a skilled decision making job like<BR>
pilot or engineer would be potentially as much as a small starship all by<BR>
itself.  Thus you might get an eccentric billionaire who dislikes human<BR>
contact who would populate his yacht with robots (Howard Hughes anyone?),<BR>
but they wouldn't replace crew on a typical starship.  I would expect that<BR>
some of the cost of "high automation" ship controls in TNE would be simple<BR>
robots to do cleaning and human directed simple tasks (as someone else<BR>
suggested already).<BR>
- - Joseph<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:53:38 -0900<BR>
> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> The way I would change book 8 (if I were feeling heretical)<BR>
> would be to multiply all software costs by 10x<BR>
> and require that program cost and size increase<BR>
> with the _square_ of the skill level. This would help push<BR>
> the costs of robots up and their average skill levels<BR>
> (and thus MT positive DM's) down. For example a Pilot-4<BR>
> program would cost Cr 80,000 (not 2,000) and require<BR>
> 64 units of CPU space (not 16). The extra 48 units of<BR>
> CPU space would cost an extra Cr 24,000 if all linear and<BR>
> millions of credits more if Parallel and/or synaptic.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 22:45:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Copyright doesn't protect ideas.  It protects particular expressions<BR>
> of ideas.  If your idea doesn't qualify for a patent, its FREE GAME.<BR>
<BR>
This certainly makes sense. But in light of this, what is the basis for<BR>
these (anecdotal?) suits or threats of suits against GDW by <insert<BR>
appropriate villain> because they based game material upon an idea in a<BR>
particular work of fiction?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 01:57:47 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
Loren,<BR>
<BR>
I've just read through all the posts on this and provide the<BR>
following by way of summary.<BR>
<BR>
Section G seems to be the only spot of concern.  And only one<BR>
section of it.<BR>
<BR>
"Any posting not carrying an explicit copyright notice is also<BR>
assumed to be a contribution to Steve Jackson Games, for<BR>
any use the company sees fit, including later publication in<BR>
whole or in part under the SJ Games copyright."<BR>
<BR>
Why is that bothersome at all?<BR>
 - It reverses the default international copyright laws, which<BR>
require no notice for copyright to attach.  Under the laws,<BR>
which are a 'default' situation only, this post is copyrighted<BR>
to me, even though if I don't write "Copyright 2000 Bloo".<BR>
<BR>
Essentially, requiring posters to delineate which posts they<BR>
wish to reserve the copyright to by explicitly saying so in<BR>
each post or in a .sig is an inconvenience. The significance<BR>
may vary by individual.<BR>
<BR>
</summary><BR>
- ---<BR>
<BR>
Suggested methods of resolving the issue:<BR>
<BR>
1) Take the copyright for all content of all posts (The 'GeoCities' Way).<BR>
<BR>
or<BR>
<BR>
2) Leave the subscription agreement as it is.<BR>
<BR>
If (2) is preferred, it might help to provide some copyright law information.<BR>
The thread of posts on this topic has demonstrated that there is a wide<BR>
disparity of understanding of what copyright is and how it operates in<BR>
the US and interationally.  Some are dead on.  Some have been misled<BR>
significantly ("A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so drink deep . . .").<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
DISCLAIMER:  I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer.<BR>
If you need or want a lawyer, hire one.  The info posted<BR>
is true to the best of my current knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Gentles,<BR>
><BR>
> Could someone do me the favor of preparing a short summary of the concerns<BR>
> over the JTAS subscriber agreement and copyrights to messages on the<BR>
> discussion boards? I am preparing a FAQ, and I will submit this question to<BR>
> Steve for his personal reply.<BR>
><BR>
> Loren Wiseman<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:04:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
Someone wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >How about a couple showing that "low TL" is *not* equivalent to "fresh<BR>
> >meat". And that sometimes Hi TL troops can be utterly useless against<BR>
> >low TL natives.<BR>
<BR>
Is this actually true? In my experience, the advantages you get from even<BR>
one TL difference in communications, intelligence, and other "combat<BR>
multiplier" stuff is fairly impressive. Imagine what a difference of 2, 3 or<BR>
more TLs gives you. Is a difference of 3 TLs like fighting modern US forces<BR>
against WWI era forces? Does this become an even greater effect as TLs<BR>
increase and technology becomes a more and more important part of warfare?<BR>
<BR>
I can tell you some good stories from the Gulf War about how  *extreme*<BR>
tactical advantage was gained through one TL in difference. Or do you have<BR>
to find cases where the capabilities of advanced TL equipment was not used<BR>
correctly?<BR>
<BR>
Are there any real-world cases where a technologically inferior army<BR>
defeated a technologically superior adversary in the field when the forces<BR>
were not grossly mismatched, like a low-TL division against a high-TL squad?<BR>
If so, what does it take? A snafu in planning, logistics, or something like<BR>
that?<BR>
<BR>
If the high TL forces are ineffective against the low TL natives, is it<BR>
because the conflict is won somewhere other than the battlefield? I seem to<BR>
recall reading about an exchange at the Viet Nam peace talks which went<BR>
something like:<BR>
<BR>
American General: "You never defeated us on the battlefield."<BR>
<BR>
Vietnamese General: "This is true. It is also irrelevant."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1908<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1909</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 13 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1909<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: JTAS POSTING <BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re:Deckplans and Websites (was: Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: Imperial Law <BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Circus Spies  <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:16:29 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> And what would their reaction be if you added a "the bits I wrote are<BR>
> my copyright" line to your sig?<BR>
<BR>
A good question but not a really difficult one.<BR>
<BR>
Section G reads:<BR>
"Any posting not carrying an explicit copyright notice is also assumed<BR>
to be a contribution to Steve Jackson Games, for any use the company<BR>
sees fit, including later publication in whole or in part under the SJ<BR>
Games copyright.<BR>
<BR>
Your statement is explicit notice (its written) amd claims copyright.<BR>
So, by the terms of the _contract_, that should suffice.  In the absence<BR>
of the contract, notice isn't necessary so the question is moot.<BR>
<BR>
However, were the notice relevant, say if we went backward in time<BR>
15+ years or so, that would be ineffective because it is not in the<BR>
proper form.<BR>
<BR>
What does proper notice require?<BR>
<BR>
Three Things:<BR>
<BR>
1) "Copyright", "Copr.", or the C-in-a-Circle symbol. (only one)<BR>
2) The year of first publication<BR>
3) Name, abbreviation or known alternative designation of the author/owner.<BR>
<BR>
It must be affixed in a manner to give reasonable notice of the claim of<BR>
copyright.<BR>
<BR>
Example:  "Copr. 2000 Bloo"<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
DISCLAIMER:  I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer.<BR>
If you need or want a lawyer, hire one.  The info posted<BR>
is true to the best of my current knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:25:47 -0800<BR>
From: Snake Eyes <snake.eyes@att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
At 07:03 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 19:22 12.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
><BR>
>Gashimeku kaalariin.<BR>
>:-)<BR>
>At least this is what Solomani say...<BR>
<BR>
I thought "Gashimeku Kaalariin" was the source of the Vilani "Signal GK" -- <BR>
which (as far as I recall) is more or less synonymous with the Terran SOS <BR>
or Mayday.  If so, that would be a far cry from A-OK.<BR>
<BR>
~ Snake Eyes<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:32:31 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS POSTING <BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 18:06 -0500 6/2/00, "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Humm, this might be better directed at Dom or somebody else form BITS,<BR>
> >but... What is the status of using the BITS conversion system for a JTAS<BR>
> >article? That system covers quite a lot, and it would be a shame to go all<BR>
> >the way through that again, only to end up with something so similar that it<BR>
> >creates a copyright problem.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't think it will be a problem as we put it up for people to use;<BR>
> however, I will seek the BITS Director's confirmation of this<BR>
> tomorrow (it's 2320 hrs UK now).<BR>
<BR>
Copyright would only be relevant if the BITS material was actually<BR>
copied.  Game mechanics, conversion systems, etc., by themselves<BR>
are not protected by copyright.  They are ideas.  Ideas that do not<BR>
qualify for patents aren't protected by anything.  They are free game,<BR>
i.e, public domain.<BR>
<BR>
What _may_ be more relevant is trademark law, though this situation<BR>
isn't a good fit.  As I recall, trademark was the theory that TSR used<BR>
to assert 'ownership' of "Hit Points" and "Armor Class" (not really<BR>
ownership but if you can prevent someone else from using something<BR>
that you have allegedly created some 'goodwill' in something, i.e., it acts<BR>
as an identifier of source, its much the same thing.  [IMHO, the career-<BR>
based chargen systems of Traveller, in all its permuations but GT, _may_<BR>
be a trademark.  However, it wouldn't restrict anyone else from creating<BR>
their own similar system, just from using the exact same system.  And<BR>
even then, its by no means certain.]<BR>
<BR>
The fundamental thing that should be remembered is that<BR>
IDEAS ARE FREE.  Freely given, freely taken.  And neither copyright<BR>
nor trademark law protect them.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
DISCLAIMER:  I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer.<BR>
If you need or want a lawyer, hire one.  The info posted<BR>
is true to the best of my current knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:44:46 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 11:25 PM, snake.eyes@att.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:03 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> At 19:22 12.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Gashimeku kaalariin.<BR>
>> :-)<BR>
>> At least this is what Solomani say...<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought "Gashimeku Kaalariin" was the source of the Vilani "Signal GK" --<BR>
> which (as far as I recall) is more or less synonymous with the Terran SOS<BR>
> or Mayday.  If so, that would be a far cry from A-OK.<BR>
> <BR>
> ~ Snake Eyes<BR>
<BR>
That's the joke, note that "At least this is what Solomani say." implies a<BR>
certain, ahem, shall we say /predjudice/? (g,d, & r)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:49:29 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Snake Eyes <snake.eyes@att.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 13 February 2000 07:22<BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 07:03 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>At 19:22 12.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> >Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Gashimeku kaalariin.<BR>
>>:-)<BR>
>>At least this is what Solomani say...<BR>
><BR>
>I thought "Gashimeku Kaalariin" was the source of the Vilani "Signal GK" --<BR>
>which (as far as I recall) is more or less synonymous with the Terran SOS<BR>
>or Mayday.  If so, that would be a far cry from A-OK.<BR>
><BR>
>~ Snake Eyes<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hence the smiley.<BR>
<BR>
Vilani Vessel: "Gashimeku kaalariin! Gashimeku kaalariin!"<BR>
<BR>
Solomani Ship:<BR>
    Naive Newbie "Doesn't that mean they're in trouble... shouldn't we<BR>
help?"<BR>
<BR>
    Solomani Security "No, they're fine... it's all in the inflexion..."<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:57:24 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Copyright doesn't protect ideas.  It protects particular expressions<BR>
> > of ideas.  If your idea doesn't qualify for a patent, its FREE GAME.<BR>
><BR>
> This certainly makes sense. But in light of this, what is the basis for<BR>
> these (anecdotal?) suits or threats of suits against GDW by <insert<BR>
> appropriate villain> because they based game material upon an idea in a<BR>
> particular work of fiction?<BR>
<BR>
Well, absent the actual facts of a particular case, it is hard to say<BR>
but there are two ways one might use, and one much more<BR>
likely than the other:<BR>
<BR>
 - Misappropriation:  Laws vary in different US states.  With the reforms<BR>
to US copyright law over the last 25 years, it isn't used much anymore<BR>
but some states have screwy laws.<BR>
<BR>
 - Derivative Work Copyright.  [A much more likely culprit].<BR>
<BR>
 Section 106 of the US Copyright law, provides that "the owner of<BR>
copyright . . . has the exclusive rights to do and to authroize  . . .<BR>
(2) to prepare derivative works based on the copyrighted work."<BR>
<BR>
Sounds simple, but this is where things tend to get confused and muddled<BR>
(and thus a source for litigation).  An example helps.  Joe Writer sends<BR>
outline for Big Movie to John Producer, Producer says no deal.  A year<BR>
later, Producer releases Large Film, a movie _extremely_ similar to Big<BR>
Movie.  Writer sues Producer for copyright violation. Producer's lawyer<BR>
says Producer didn't actually copy the outline for Big Movie so there<BR>
cannot be infringement.  Writer's lawyer responds, Large Film was<BR>
_derived_ from the outline for Big Movie, therefore infringement.<BR>
<BR>
The amount of similarity needed is pretty extreme.  Examples<BR>
of derivative works: translations, abridgements, musical arrangements,<BR>
motion picture versions, etc.  "[A] form in which a work may be recast,<BR>
transormed, or adapted."  (US Copyright Law).<BR>
<BR>
Its a messy area of law and begs questions of source that can<BR>
devolve into "The House That John Built" sort of thing.  But<BR>
without similarity in the extreme, its a waste of time in my opinion.<BR>
But given the cost of the legal business, everyone settles, even<BR>
when they're in the right (but that is a separate kettle of Vilani stew).<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
DISCLAIMER:  I am a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer.<BR>
If you need or want a lawyer, hire one.  The info posted<BR>
is true to the best of my current knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:57:31 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
At 23:25 12.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>At 07:03 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>At 19:22 12.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> >Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Gashimeku kaalariin.<BR>
>>:-)<BR>
>>At least this is what Solomani say...<BR>
><BR>
>I thought "Gashimeku Kaalariin" was the source of the Vilani "Signal GK" -- <BR>
>which (as far as I recall) is more or less synonymous with the Terran SOS <BR>
>or Mayday.  If so, that would be a far cry from A-OK.<BR>
<BR>
And I thought the meaning of a smiley was clear to all...<BR>
sorry, next time I' ll tell you in plain text when I am not serious.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:08:49 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
><BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > For instance, I could post something I wrote with a friend, and<BR>
> > _unless_ the post also contained an explicit release from my<BR>
> > friend, he could still, even if he was also a member of the<BR>
> > discussion group, succesfully sue SJG if they<BR>
> > appeared to use anything from the post.<BR>
><BR>
> Nope.<BR>
><BR>
> Section G also says:<BR>
> "Likewise, you must respect the ownership rights of others in<BR>
> their own messages and files. You may not post or transfer<BR>
> any messages or files unless you own them,<BR>
> or you have full authority to transmit them to this system."<BR>
><BR>
> Legalese Translation:  Post your friends stuff and YOU have violated his<BR>
> copyright, not SJG.  This effectively immunizes SJG from contributing to<BR>
> your infringement.  This is a protective measure to prevent the scenario<BR>
> you describe.<BR>
<BR>
Section G does protect SJG from being implicated in the _original_ violation<BR>
of posting copyright material to the discussion board ( as long as they<BR>
remove it on request )<BR>
<BR>
But it does _not_ protect them in the scenario I described, where _they_ are<BR>
violating copyright again by using that materiel for other purposes or<BR>
claiming their own copyright over it.<BR>
<BR>
If Section G did protect them from this, then SJG could happily re-publish<BR>
the entire D&D series if someone posted it to their discussion board.<BR>
<BR>
This is exactly the same as recieving stolen goods, while you can claim<BR>
anything you want in any agreements with the person you bought them from,<BR>
you're still breaking the law by receiving stolen goods.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:08:49 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
><BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > For instance, I could post something I wrote with a friend, and<BR>
> > _unless_ the post also contained an explicit release from my<BR>
> > friend, he could still, even if he was also a member of the<BR>
> > discussion group, succesfully sue SJG if they<BR>
> > appeared to use anything from the post.<BR>
><BR>
> Nope.<BR>
><BR>
> Section G also says:<BR>
> "Likewise, you must respect the ownership rights of others in<BR>
> their own messages and files. You may not post or transfer<BR>
> any messages or files unless you own them,<BR>
> or you have full authority to transmit them to this system."<BR>
><BR>
> Legalese Translation:  Post your friends stuff and YOU have violated his<BR>
> copyright, not SJG.  This effectively immunizes SJG from contributing to<BR>
> your infringement.  This is a protective measure to prevent the scenario<BR>
> you describe.<BR>
<BR>
Section G does protect SJG from being implicated in the _original_ violation<BR>
of posting copyright material to the discussion board ( as long as they<BR>
remove it on request )<BR>
<BR>
But it does _not_ protect them in the scenario I described, where _they_ are<BR>
violating copyright again by using that materiel for other purposes or<BR>
claiming their own copyright over it.<BR>
<BR>
If Section G did protect them from this, then SJG could happily re-publish<BR>
the entire D&D series if someone posted it to their discussion board.<BR>
<BR>
This is exactly the same as recieving stolen goods, while you can claim<BR>
anything you want in any agreements with the person you bought them from,<BR>
you're still breaking the law by receiving stolen goods.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:11:33 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Deckplans and Websites (was: Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 6:39 PM, jimpeta@primus.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'll back engineer the MT version<BR>
> and see how much I can fit in and eventually put it up on my site.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, please do. I would think that in the great big really enormously huge<BR>
Imperium, there would be a variety of "sub-models" and am collecting<BR>
deckplans for an upcoming campaign. There are a lot of plans on the web,<BR>
I've got over a hundred easy. But then /some/ aren't even Traveller. NASA<BR>
schematics, Str Frontiers, Star Wars, Star Trek. Check my site to see if I<BR>
have you on my links page*, I've been fixing that section. I still have a<BR>
few unidentified links and some sorting to do. But RL has been interfering,<BR>
you know? ;) Eventually the links page will have further notation on link<BR>
contents, like deckplans, etc.<BR>
<BR>
*My ulterior motive being someone (this can mean anyone on the list) to test<BR>
my latest updated format to see if it has a major design flaw. Still very<BR>
barebones, but I'm learning html the hard way, no classes, basic handbook,<BR>
and a variety of distractions.<BR>
<BR>
Site--> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
////////////////////////////////////////<BR>
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
"Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:27:20 -0800<BR>
From: Snake Eyes <snake.eyes@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
At 08:57 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And I thought the meaning of a smiley was clear to all...<BR>
>sorry, next time I' ll tell you in plain text when I am not serious.<BR>
<BR>
Evidently a momentary bout of retardation caused the witty Solomani <BR>
reference to be lost on me.  Maybe next time I'll just read a little closer <BR>
before I reply.  Terribly sorry.  Humblest apologies and all that.  Carry on.<BR>
<BR>
~ Snake Eyes<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:28:01 -0800<BR>
From: Snake Eyes <snake.eyes@att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
At 08:57 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And I thought the meaning of a smiley was clear to all...<BR>
>sorry, next time I' ll tell you in plain text when I am not serious.<BR>
<BR>
Evidently a momentary bout of retardation caused the witty Solomani <BR>
reference to be lost on me.  Maybe next time I'll just read a little closer <BR>
before I reply.  Terribly sorry.  Humblest apologies and all that.  Carry on.<BR>
<BR>
~ Snake Eyes<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:46:21 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
At 00:28 13.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>At 08:57 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>And I thought the meaning of a smiley was clear to all...<BR>
>>sorry, next time I' ll tell you in plain text when I am not serious.<BR>
><BR>
>Evidently a momentary bout of retardation caused the witty Solomani <BR>
>reference to be lost on me.  Maybe next time I'll just read a little closer <BR>
>before I reply.  Terribly sorry.  Humblest apologies and all that.  Carry on.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
"No problem." <BR>
(famous non-Solomani)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:04:58 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law <BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> >Are you suggesting that the Imperium is cleverly promoting<BR>
> >Interstellar travel by ensuring that people have more rights<BR>
> >on another planet then they would on their home planet?<BR>
> ><BR>
> It is implied, but nowhere is it explicit. Supplement 4 sort of implies it,<BR>
> by having only certain careers.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Supplement 4 only had<BR>
room for a certain number of careers presumably its writers<BR>
included those they thought would be interesting. What does<BR>
this have to do with Imperial Law.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, The chirpers on Vanjeen are clearly NOT imperial citizens,<BR>
<BR>
Agreed.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium, thinks the chirpers are only "semi intelligent"<BR>
[CT Sup 8 Library Data A - M p. 20]. Presumably if your species<BR>
has been classified as semi intelligent, presumably by the<BR>
Scout Service, then you are not eligible for citizenship.<BR>
<BR>
This does not mean that they are "subjects" it implies that<BR>
they are more like chimpanzees. The government code and law <BR>
level of Vanejan are not very high which can be read as implying<BR>
that repression of Chirpers no more makes a government<BR>
repressive to the Imperials than current use of chimps in<BR>
lab experiments makes those governments repressive, to non<BR>
PETA sources at least,<BR>
<BR>
> nor are<BR>
> the droyne worlds, but they ARE subjects, and hence subject to imperial<BR>
> laws.<BR>
<BR>
Are you saying that the inhabitants of red zoned planets<BR>
are subject to Imperial law while they are on their home<BR>
planets? Maybe on some red zoned worlds but not on all of<BR>
them, the inhabitants of some red zoned worlds do not even<BR>
know the Imperium exists so, absent X-fileish alien/government<BR>
co-conspiracies they _can't_ be subject to Imperial law.<BR>
<BR>
> I make the distinction to provide additional plot complications. <BR>
<BR>
That's very understandable from a Ref's POV but it seems<BR>
an over reading of canon sources.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that if some careers conveyed "Citizen"<BR>
status then it should be listed in the character generation<BR>
and mustering out section of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Simply<BR>
> put, by having the citizen/subject distinction, it encourages persons to<BR>
> imperial services (and approved civil jobs) at sub-standard pay. Once a<BR>
> citizen, your right to travel, right to due process, and right to appeal to<BR>
> the nobility are secured, and protected. Subjects, on the other hand, are<BR>
> chattel of their world government... with one exception there: you can take<BR>
> imperial service in order to become a citizen, and thus no longer chattel<BR>
> of your homeworld's government.<BR>
> <BR>
> IMTU, the 3I really is sort of a super-megacorp, with hereditary transfer<BR>
> of common stock (the nobility) and self-perpeutating-oligarchic voting<BR>
> stock (Offices and membership in the moot), with a recruiting policy for<BR>
> granting new shares (non-heir children and the promoted nobility of reward).<BR>
> <BR>
> >How does the Imperium enforce sanctions except after the fact?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >It is true that in most cases contemporary governments<BR>
> >enforce law after the fact but they can _potentially_ sanction<BR>
> >violations as they occur.<BR>
> <BR>
> Most? Try "ALL".By definition, sanctions are after the act, although what<BR>
> the act is is often fuzzy, and in some can simply be active consideration.<BR>
> Not that all prosecutions/actions are for factual crimes.<BR>
<BR>
This depends on definition. What I was alluding to was that, in<BR>
rare cases, law enforcement personnel do indeed kill criminals<BR>
in the act of committing a crime. If you have been killed by<BR>
the government this is a government sanction against your actions<BR>
no matter what the government chooses to call it.<BR>
<BR>
> > How is spacing someone in jump space any different<BR>
> >from shooting your neighbor to death in the bush and letting<BR>
> >nature dispose of the body?<BR>
> <BR>
> You don't have a passenger lading document to compare to... and you haven't<BR>
> had the captain assume personal responsibility for the health, welfare, and<BR>
> survival of the passengers, the implicit (and frequently explicit) contract<BR>
> upon boardign a craft of any kind.<BR>
<BR>
So what happens if you hire me to to carry you to an<BR>
unpopulated planet. I space you in jump. I then have my<BR>
records reflect the "fact" that you remained on the ship<BR>
until landing and left onto the planet. Who's going to know, <BR>
especially if their are no other passengers or crew to<BR>
dispute my records?<BR>
<BR>
If you are suggesting that the ships transponder is monitoring,<BR>
by camera, every cycling of the ships airlock then it seems <BR>
to me you are over reading the intrusiveness of the ships<BR>
transponder.<BR>
<BR>
> For example, when I get in your vehicle,<BR>
> an explicit legal resonsibility exists: I get in your car, whilst you are<BR>
> the driver. If I am injured while in your vehicle by any actions not taken<BR>
> by myself (whether by you, another passenger, or an outsider, I (or my<BR>
> heirs) can attempt to recover damages from you; the implicit contract of my<BR>
> getting in the vehicle with your permission is that you are assuming said<BR>
> responsibility.<BR>
<BR>
The question is not what the letter of the law requires,<BR>
the question is what, in practice, you can expect to be<BR>
able to get away with. The letter of the law (to quote <BR>
Bab5's Lord Reefa about treaties) is merely "words on a <BR>
page" absent the power of enforcement.<BR>
<BR>
> On aircraft and boats, under existing civil and international laws, the<BR>
> contract is more explicit, and in the same vein, in that I can expect to<BR>
> recover from the captain for any failure of the equipment which brings<BR>
> damages to me, even if due to act of nature (like a lighting strike), due<BR>
> to his negligence in allowing the craft to operate in unsafe conditions.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium exists for the benefit of the ship owners not<BR>
for the benefit of the ships passengers. Allowing American style<BR>
litigious excess into the process seems contrary to the<BR>
descriptions of the limited nature of the Imperium. If the<BR>
Imperium is going to say what sorts of contracts are valid<BR>
and what sort of contracts are invalid then they are no longer <BR>
the limited government they are described as.<BR>
<BR>
If the Imperium does not even stop its inhabitants from going<BR>
to war with each other but merely has a set of rules, The<BR>
Imperial Rules of War, that slightly limit the conduct of these<BR>
wars then why are they going to worry about weather or not<BR>
you unwisely consented to travel on my Law Level G Starship?<BR>
<BR>
Stopping people from going to war with each other is generally <BR>
held to be a more basic governmental function than enforcing<BR>
contract law. If the Imperium allows private wars why the<BR>
deleted wouldn't they allow private contracts?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:17:24 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
> Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
> Subject: re: Imperial Law<BR>
> <BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >The planets are located in the same universe as the Imperium<BR>
> >while the ships in jump space are not.<BR>
> <BR>
> I doubt that any Imperial agent would give a damn what universe your<BR>
> ship was in. They probably just consider jump space to be a special<BR>
> part of this universe anyway, especially if this interpretation places<BR>
> fewer limits on their actions.<BR>
<BR>
Where in canon is this established?<BR>
<BR>
> Think of this: if there did happen to be an Imperial agent on board a<BR>
> ship in jump space, would he believe that his authority to enforce the<BR>
> Emperor's will (and the personal power he gains from that authority)<BR>
> just switched off the moment the ship jumped? <BR>
<BR>
His beliefs must be dictated by what he has been told<BR>
of Imperial law. Where does it say that Imperial law applies <BR>
in jump space? Do you have a canon source in a GDW<BR>
published product where an Imperial agent has given orders<BR>
in jump space? [Besides the military for whom the rules might<BR>
be different just as they are in militaries today.]<BR>
<BR>
> If there are two ships in port, one of which has agreed to follow Imperial<BR>
> law, the other has agreed to follow a set of laws that give the Captain the<BR>
> right to kill you, eat your liver and take your cargo, which one will get<BR>
> the contract to carry the MCr10/ton cyberbetic brains, and which one<BR>
> will be lucky to get a load of grain?<BR>
<BR>
Yes exactly what I am saying: The profit motive alone will<BR>
deter Captain Bligh types in the Imperium, therefore it is<BR>
not necessary for laws to exist. If you are foolish enough<BR>
to ride on a ship from a Law Level G planet you are just<BR>
as screwed as if you had chosen to go to this planet.<BR>
<BR>
> It is **profitable** to have a common set of rules and expectations.<BR>
> Even if a large part of your company spends all it's time figuring out<BR>
> how to get around these rules, not having a common ground for this<BR>
> kind of thing gets very expensive indeed.<BR>
<BR>
This sort of thing encourages the megacorps all of whose<BR>
ships will be required to follow company regulations and<BR>
the laws of the corporate homeport on board ship and will<BR>
discourage passengers from traveling on free traders whose<BR>
laws they are unsure of. This is exactly the result that the<BR>
mega corporations desire.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:32:54 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Circus Spies  <BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > > >a clandestine Imperial espionage unit that travelled <BR>
> > > >the Imperium disguised as a circus.....<BR>
<BR>
> > > E.E. "Doc" Smith had a similar idea.  Never got past<BR>
> > > the notes stage before his death.  Somebody wrote a half<BR>
> > > dozen or so novels based on his notes for the "Family D'Albert",<BR>
 <BR>
D'Alembert<BR>
<BR>
> > > who run the most famous circus in the Galaxy and are<BR>
> > > also Intelligence operatives reporting directly the <BR>
> > > Emperor's head of Security.<BR>
<BR>
> "Imperial Stars", #1 in the Family D'Alembert Series<BR>
> Author listed as E.E. "Doc" Smith with Stephen Goldin<BR>
> Copyright 1976 by Verna Smith Trestrall<BR>
> <BR>
> I've got about a half dozen of the series<BR>
> #2 Stranglers' Moon<BR>
> #3 The Clockwork Traitor<BR>
> #4 Getaway World<BR>
> #5 Appointment at Bloodstar<BR>
> #6 The Purity Plot<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm pretty sure more were published.<BR>
<BR>
A total of ten were published. <BR>
<BR>
#7 Planet of Treachery<BR>
#8 Eclipsing Binaries<BR>
#9 The Omicron Invasion<BR>
#10 Revolt of the Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
They are more than a bit space operaish but make <BR>
_excellent_ background for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
The D'Alembert series has an 1,100 (not 11,000) world<BR>
Empire, ruled by an Emperor and various feudal nobility:<BR>
Dukes, Counts, Marquis, Baron's etc. Sound familiar?<BR>
The big differences between the D'Alembert series and<BR>
Traveller is that they have FTL radio, the subcom, and<BR>
the absence of aliens.<BR>
<BR>
S<BR>
P<BR>
O<BR>
I<BR>
L<BR>
E<BR>
R<BR>
S<BR>
P<BR>
A<BR>
C<BR>
E<BR>
<BR>
In the last of the ten book series the D'Alemberts <BR>
discover that their main enemy, the mysterious "C" is<BR>
actually the Empires main computer. It (ala The Moon<BR>
is a Harsh Mistress) was made so large that one day it<BR>
woke up. It decide that it had to control it's environment,<BR>
The Imperium. Our heroes blow it up but in the process<BR>
end up destroying every computer in the Empire. At the<BR>
end of book ten they are rebuilding the Empire; the TNE<BR>
parallels are obvious.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1909<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1910</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/13/00 8:44:34 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 13 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1910<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
Re: Testing<BR>
Re: SF Comics (was re: Gaming artists...)<BR>
wolves & vargr<BR>
Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!<BR>
Re: TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
Re: wolves & vargr<BR>
re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Circus Spies<BR>
re: Imperial Law<BR>
Psionic variant<BR>
Re: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG <BR>
Re: Mottoes<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies <BR>
More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
Re: TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:43:30 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
> > Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
> > Think of this: if there did happen to be an Imperial agent on board a<BR>
> > ship in jump space, would he believe that his authority to enforce the<BR>
> > Emperor's will (and the personal power he gains from that authority)<BR>
> > just switched off the moment the ship jumped?<BR>
><BR>
> His beliefs must be dictated by what he has been told<BR>
> of Imperial law. Where does it say that Imperial law applies<BR>
> in jump space?<BR>
<BR>
More importantly, where does it say that it doesn't ?<BR>
<BR>
In the absence of contrary information, any Imperial agent will assume he<BR>
has jurisdiction, in the manner of officials everywhere.<BR>
<BR>
> Do you have a canon source in a GDW<BR>
> published product where an Imperial agent has given orders<BR>
> in jump space? [Besides the military for whom the rules might<BR>
> be different just as they are in militaries today.]<BR>
<BR>
That Imperial law applies to the "space between stars" is mentioned in<BR>
several canon sources.<BR>
<BR>
Now you could argue that jump space is not "between stars", in fact you can<BR>
argue that an Imperial interdiction or other instrument does not apply to<BR>
you for any reason you like.<BR>
<BR>
But the Imperium has a simple answer to your arguments, if you have more<BR>
firepower than they do, they'll accept your interpretation until their<BR>
reinforcements arrive. If not, you will either accept their interpretation<BR>
or you will cease to be.<BR>
<BR>
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the rule of law in the Imperium is<BR>
based upon anything other than brute force, or that legal arguments hold any<BR>
weight to a factor T meson gun.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 05:54:59 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
<BR>
I'd go for the Half-life version even though that means I gotta buy<BR>
Half-Life.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>; "Loren K. Wiseman" <lkw@io.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 8:46 PM<BR>
Subject: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG (was<BR>
Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> There are several ways I see that this product could be done useing stock<BR>
> products:<BR>
> 1.License a capable game-engine like Half-Life.<BR>
>   a.BENEFITS<BR>
>     1)Full movement anywhere within the ship in real time.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:30:55 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Testing<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> This is Free Trader Bloo's Traveller,<BR>
> calling anyone . . .<BR>
> Mayday, Mayday . . . we are under attack . . .<BR>
> posting ability gone . . .<BR>
> mail filter number one not responding . . .<BR>
> Mayday . . . losing bandwidth fast . . .<BR>
> calling anyone . . . please help . . .<BR>
> This is Free Trader Bloo's Traveller . . .<BR>
>                                 Mayday . . .<BR>
<BR>
Since I was not eating or drinking anything, this attempt failed.<BR>
Otherwise, it would surely have been a distaster to my keyboard and<BR>
monitor.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:18:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SF Comics (was re: Gaming artists...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
>>Oh, and there are few good comics for Traveller plots as well, the original<BR>
>>"A Distant Soil", "Six from Sirius", "Alien Legion", "Grimjack" , "Nexus",<BR>
>>"Dirty Pair".<BR>
><BR>
> And don't forget:<BR>
><BR>
> "Buck Godot, Zapgun for Hire"!!<BR>
<BR>
Only if you get rid of Smith & Wesson. Those two are just *too*<BR>
unbalancing! <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:20:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: wolves & vargr<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Come to think of it, such K9 units might actually do better as<BR>
>>low tech units with high tech support.  No guns or energy<BR>
>>weapons, no explosives to make noise and give their<BR>
>>positions away, just deadly silence until you hear the fur<BR>
>>singing in the wind and see your death closing on your<BR>
>>throat.<BR>
><BR>
> Maybe the first couple of kills against a unit would be silent.<BR>
> Then give the opposition time to find the mauled bodies of<BR>
> their comrades. After that and the occasional howl will have<BR>
> a wonderfully demoralizing effect. (Though if one of your opponents<BR>
> is wearing a greay cloak with a pointy hood watch out for fire.)<BR>
<BR>
Better still, hit them while they are sleeping and pull the "kill one<BR>
man per tent" bit. *Then* howl as you ex-filtrate...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:24:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:21:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
> Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:37:03 -0500 (EST), you wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>>Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:44:27<BR>
>>>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>>>>Subject: Honey, I'm home!!!!<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>>I'm back, and panicked.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>>Anybody have good sidebar ideas for Ground Forces? I am really stuck here.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> History - or notable episodes therefrom - of 'well known' units.<BR>
>>> Especially when they illustrate the unit at their finest in<BR>
>>> carrying out the mission of the ground forces.  Or when they<BR>
>>> illustrate them at their worst in fouling it up...<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Anecdotes about the rivalries between the ground forces and other<BR>
>>> arms.<BR>
>><BR>
>>How about a couple showing that "low TL" is *not* equivalent to "fresh<BR>
>>meat". And that sometimes Hi TL troops can be utterly useless against<BR>
>>low TL natives.<BR>
><BR>
> IIRC there's a Heinlien quote along this line about verniers and stone<BR>
> axes.<BR>
<BR>
There's a *lovely* SF short story from an old Analog (that I've seen in<BR>
at least one anthology) that has the super high tech landing team mark<BR>
a planet off limits because of the untraceable, undetectable weapons<BR>
that took out half the landing team.<BR>
<BR>
Turns out that they were taken out by a TL 0 native who was hiding in<BR>
the bushes and used a blowgun...<BR>
<BR>
If I could recall the title and author, I'd *strongly* suggest trying<BR>
to get rights to re-print it in the book. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 03:36:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Someone wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> >How about a couple showing that "low TL" is *not* equivalent to "fresh<BR>
>> >meat". And that sometimes Hi TL troops can be utterly useless against<BR>
>> >low TL natives.<BR>
><BR>
> Is this actually true? In my experience, the advantages you get from even<BR>
> one TL difference in communications, intelligence, and other "combat<BR>
> multiplier" stuff is fairly impressive. Imagine what a difference of 2, 3 or<BR>
> more TLs gives you. Is a difference of 3 TLs like fighting modern US forces<BR>
> against WWI era forces? Does this become an even greater effect as TLs<BR>
> increase and technology becomes a more and more important part of warfare?<BR>
<BR>
Consider the case of a nice fast jet fighter like the Air Force just<BR>
*loves*. Put it up against a biplane. Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
interesting because the *top* speed of the biplane is below the *stall*<BR>
speed for the jet. And the biplane can turn a lot sharper.<BR>
<BR>
It's still possible to knock it out of the sky but it's *hard*.<BR>
<BR>
> I can tell you some good stories from the Gulf War about how  *extreme*<BR>
> tactical advantage was gained through one TL in difference. Or do you have<BR>
> to find cases where the capabilities of advanced TL equipment was not used<BR>
> correctly?<BR>
<BR>
Sure *one* TL or even two is a big advantage. But at 3-5 things can get<BR>
rather weird especially if the high TL troops haven't trained<BR>
specifically against low TL troops.<BR>
<BR>
> Are there any real-world cases where a technologically inferior army<BR>
> defeated a technologically superior adversary in the field when the forces<BR>
> were not grossly mismatched, like a low-TL division against a high-TL squad?<BR>
> If so, what does it take? A snafu in planning, logistics, or something like<BR>
> that?<BR>
<BR>
We aren't quite "high tech" enough for this to be a problem for<BR>
*infantry*. But by the time you get to battle dress and fancy sensors,<BR>
you've got the problem of watching the sensors instead of watching the<BR>
terrain.<BR>
<BR>
But the basic problem tends to be one where intelligently used low TL<BR>
troops going up against overconfident HIGH-TL troops can be *very* bad<BR>
for the high-TL troops. <BR>
<BR>
But just consider the trouble that we had in VietName trying to deal<BR>
with the VC. They weren't *stupid* enough to fight standup battles.<BR>
They just kept digging away at vulnerable points, and finding ways to<BR>
attack where our tech edge either didn't apply, or worked against us.<BR>
<BR>
> If the high TL forces are ineffective against the low TL natives, is it<BR>
> because the conflict is won somewhere other than the battlefield? I seem to<BR>
> recall reading about an exchange at the Viet Nam peace talks which went<BR>
> something like:<BR>
<BR>
> American General: "You never defeated us on the battlefield."<BR>
><BR>
> Vietnamese General: "This is true. It is also irrelevant."<BR>
<BR>
Right. A low TL force has to be commanded by a *fool* if they try to go<BR>
head-to-head with a high-TL force.<BR>
<BR>
Meson screens, and artillery are *useless* against an enemy who strips<BR>
to his skivvies, slides into the camp at night, and uses our troops own<BR>
knives to cut their throats in their sleep. And given either skill or<BR>
favorable weather conditions, neither IR sensors nor motion detectors<BR>
will help.<BR>
<BR>
Mostly, I go for the idea that intelligent commanders *do* exist, even<BR>
for low TL forces. And that means they will choose situations where<BR>
your tech advantage is neutralized.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:52:46 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: wolves & vargr<BR>
<BR>
At 03:20 AM 2/13/00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Maybe the first couple of kills against a unit would be silent.<BR>
>> Then give the opposition time to find the mauled bodies of<BR>
>> their comrades. After that and the occasional howl will have<BR>
>> a wonderfully demoralizing effect. (Though if one of your opponents<BR>
>> is wearing a greay cloak with a pointy hood watch out for fire.)<BR>
><BR>
>Better still, hit them while they are sleeping and pull the "kill one<BR>
>man per tent" bit. *Then* howl as you ex-filtrate...<BR>
>-- <BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
        There is a certain sort of brilliance that figures into if the 3i is<BR>
"Turks in Space" that the Vargr Extents are "Gurkahs in Space"....<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:05:19 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>So what happens if you hire me to to carry you to an<BR>
>unpopulated planet. I space you in jump. I then have my<BR>
>records reflect the "fact" that you remained on the ship<BR>
>until landing and left onto the planet. Who's going to know, <BR>
>especially if their are no other passengers or crew to<BR>
>dispute my records?<BR>
<BR>
Sounds to me like IYTU, people who travel to uninhabited planets<BR>
are completely at the mercy of the Captain and crew taking them<BR>
there. If that is the case, then no one will travel to an uninhabited<BR>
planet unless they are travelling on their own ship, or have the<BR>
numbers and skills to travel without fear of the crew.<BR>
<BR>
How many people travel alone to uninhabited planets? Is this a common<BR>
situation anyway? I don't think you can take such a rarity and use it<BR>
as a means for dismissing the authority of Imperial law.<BR>
<BR>
You might get away with the "I left him on the planet, he was fine" trick<BR>
once or twice. Every time you do it, you risk the authorities seeing a<BR>
pattern. Some of those authorities may not be concerned with niceties<BR>
like proof and due process, and they may have access to secret people<BR>
who can read your mind, or secret machines that can make you tell<BR>
the truth.<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>If you are suggesting that the ships transponder is monitoring,<BR>
>by camera, every cycling of the ships airlock then it seems <BR>
>to me you are over reading the intrusiveness of the ships<BR>
>transponder.<BR>
<BR>
You are underestimating the capabilities of investigators, and perhaps<BR>
even underestimating your rights to due process.<BR>
<BR>
Also, turn this around: A rich, respected person asks you to take her to<BR>
an uninhabited planet and leave her there. You know that it will be hard to<BR>
prove that you *didn't* just space her and take her money, and are very<BR>
worried that her company and well-connected family will think you did<BR>
just that - and won't worry about proof. Will you accept the charter?<BR>
At least, without taking some videos yourself of her being left safely on<BR>
the planet's surface?<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>The question is not what the letter of the law requires,<BR>
>the question is what, in practice, you can expect to be<BR>
>able to get away with. <BR>
<BR>
People who are in prison generally were in error about how much they<BR>
could get away with. Not every lawbreaker is caught, that does not<BR>
invalidate the deterrence of law.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>The Imperium exists for the benefit of the ship owners not<BR>
>for the benefit of the ships passengers.<BR>
<BR>
Now *you* need to go find a canon source. People who travel interstellar<BR>
are spending a year or more (or *much* more) of the wages an average<BR>
citizen gets. What is your canon source that the Imperium explicity<BR>
or implicitly dismisses any interest in the welfare of ship's paying <BR>
passengers? <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:07:41 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
I've spent all my life getting my name mispelled.  I still correct<BR>
people tactfully.  I've had it spelled Maley, Mally, Mailey, Mahly,<BR>
Malley, Malloy, and even Maly.  The last one was amusing since it came<BR>
from a nationwide genealogical service and is a Polish surname complete<BR>
with coat of arms, etc.  I find it more amusing than annoying.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> >Consider my name. Leonard Erickson.<BR>
> ><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> >Or in "shorthand": Eri[c|ck|k][s|ss][e|o]n<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I'm amazed I see as *few* misspellings of my name as I do.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >- --<BR>
> >Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> > shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> >leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
> My apologies for my own and other dyslexic/dystypographic/dysgraphic<BR>
> errors. Does "Shadow" work? <GD&R><BR>
> <BR>
> Similarly, I've seen a number of people mis-spell my name by substituing a<BR>
> different first letter, or assuming that my "Wil" {note only one L} is<BR>
> shortened from William, and "Will" is fine... Wil is shortened from<BR>
> "Wilhelm vonDsseldorf", my SCA name.<BR>
> <BR>
> But, when it comes to Boy-Howdy misspellings, just look at any of the<BR>
> invented terms in Traveller. I'll just list a few I've seen on the TNL over<BR>
> the last 5 years for Zhodani and then for Vargr:<BR>
>         Zodani, Zohdani, Zhodane, Zhodanee, Zodane<BR>
>         Varger, Vrgr, Vager, Vargre, Vargyr. Space-wolves, Pirates...<BR>
> <BR>
> William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
> interface!"<BR>
> Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
> 533<BR>
> aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
> pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:20:38 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Mostly, I go for the idea that intelligent commanders *do* exist, even<BR>
>for low TL forces. And that means they will choose situations where<BR>
>your tech advantage is neutralized.<BR>
<BR>
Conversely, the intelligent commander of the high-tech force will choose<BR>
situations where the tech advantage is multiplied. Not all commanders<BR>
of either side get to choose their own situations, though.<BR>
<BR>
This does push low-tech forces into the guerrila mode - guerrillas tend<BR>
to have more choice in the selection of battlefields and the tempo of<BR>
the conflict.<BR>
<BR>
If the high-tech commander is more intelligent than most of his low-tech<BR>
counterparts, he will win a lot of easy battles. This may make him<BR>
overconfident, even dismissive of his enemies. This overconfidence is<BR>
perhaps the only real advantage a low-tech opponent can get, as all<BR>
other low-tech advantages (such as advantageous terrain) pretty much<BR>
flow from it.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 06:33:45 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Circus Spies<BR>
<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
>Subject: Circus Spies<BR>
...<BR>
>"Imperial Stars", #1 in the Family D'Alembert Series<BR>
>Author listed as E.E. "Doc" Smith with Stephen Goldin<BR>
>Copyright 1976 by Verna Smith Trestrall<BR>
><BR>
>I've got about a half dozen of the series<BR>
>#2 Stranglers' Moon<BR>
>#3 The Clockwork Traitor<BR>
>#4 Getaway World<BR>
>#5 Appointment at Bloodstar<BR>
>#6 The Purity Plot<BR>
><BR>
>I'm pretty sure more were published.<BR>
<BR>
  Yes, but the later ones were pretty over the top, plot-wise, and thus<BR>
of limited use (?) for many Traveller games. I don't think that there's<BR>
anything wrong with heavily mining #' 2-6, above, for ideas for any<BR>
number of RPG's, although I wouldn't recommend paying above original<BR>
retail for any of them. I think the last was #9 or 10, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:29:25 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>Yes exactly what I am saying: The profit motive alone will<BR>
>deter Captain Bligh types in the Imperium, therefore it is<BR>
>not necessary for laws to exist. If you are foolish enough<BR>
>to ride on a ship from a Law Level G planet you are just<BR>
>as screwed as if you had chosen to go to this planet.<BR>
<BR>
If people won't ride on these ships, they won't make a profit,<BR>
and thus as merchant ships they will not exist.<BR>
<BR>
Unless passengers and cargo shippers have a guarantee that<BR>
you aren't going to use your home planet's law against them in<BR>
an abusive fashion, they won't use your ship - they'll use the<BR>
ship run by people who are giving them such a guarantee.<BR>
<BR>
Peter again:<BR>
>This sort of thing encourages the megacorps all of whose<BR>
>ships will be required to follow company regulations and<BR>
>the laws of the corporate homeport on board ship and will<BR>
>discourage passengers from traveling on free traders whose<BR>
>laws they are unsure of. This is exactly the result that the<BR>
>mega corporations desire.<BR>
<BR>
The above seems to invalidate your position. If adhering to a certain<BR>
code of law is financially harmful to a profit-minded Free Trader<BR>
captain, he will quickly find another code of law to adhere to, if he has<BR>
a choice - and you seem to be saying he does, simply by choosing to<BR>
register at a different planet, or to get some kind of Imperial registry.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:33:08 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
The "Empress Wave" effects made me think of a old idea I had back in the<BR>
early 80's.  I thought what if a few people even have latent psi<BR>
abilities (I postulated maybe about 5% of the population), called<BR>
anapsi(or deadheads).  Furthermore take that futher, and have a sport<BR>
called psinulls (maybe 1-5% of the deadhead population) that not only<BR>
are incapable of psi activity but actively dampen psi powers like a<BR>
psionic black hole.  They had a rating like the psionic rating which<BR>
gave the radius of effect (1m radius from the psinull per level)of<BR>
psionic dampening.  It would take a psi with a power rating higher than<BR>
the psinull to use their psi abilities.  Of course there would be a<BR>
feedback effect on the effected psi user causing headaches that alert<BR>
the psi of psinull presence.  Haven't used psinulls in years, but they<BR>
are still in my notes.  May or may not post the idea on my site. Really<BR>
not certain if it was a good idea, though some of my players liked it.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:23:38 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG <BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/12/00 7:13:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
>  A copy of Half-Life costs ~$40 USD.  RealityStudio is ~$200.  <BR>
Unfortunately,<BR>
>  I have no idea how much the QTVR authoring tools are.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  There you have it.  Hard choices.<BR>
>  The trade-offs summarized:<BR>
>  1.Compatibility - While the majority of folks use either Windows or Mac<BR>
>  based machines, there are plenty of folks out there with Linux, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I think SJG will go with whatever costs less and makes the most money. <BR>
Therefore you're probably limited to Windows or MAC machines.<BR>
<BR>
>  2.Cost - Whether a)licensed game engine, b)released as a level which leads<BR>
>  to further cost for the consumer, or c)purchasing panoramic software of one<BR>
>  type or another, there is cost involved for either the consumer, SJG, or <BR>
the<BR>
>  artists creating the content.<BR>
<BR>
Seeing the Azhanti with possible combat events would be the best commercial <BR>
bet (and you'd get sales outside of Traveller players).<BR>
<BR>
>  3.Perceived Value of the Product - Game engine gives most fluid exploration<BR>
>  and movement, while the panoramic software has better cross platform <BR>
ability<BR>
>  as the cost of movement and screen size.<BR>
<BR>
Other advantages with the game engine are as you stated for including Chamax <BR>
bugs or Zhodani warbots.<BR>
  <BR>
>  Let's get some feedback going!  What would the customer, i.e. you folks on<BR>
>  the TML, like to see?<BR>
>  Also, if anyone has any more detailed information or other ideas about<BR>
>  solutions, by all means please share!!  :)<BR>
<BR>
Someone else was planning at doing something like this a couple of years ago <BR>
I think. If I have time I'll see if I can go through my archives (yeah right).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 07:57:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes<BR>
<BR>
At 01:40 AM 2/13/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry about the rampant American-based egotism. I'm an American, I've got a <BR>
>big ego, I'd like to think the values I believe my country represents would <BR>
>last that far into the future. This is not meant as an insult or anything to <BR>
>any other nation, it's just that I've never lived anywhere else, and have no <BR>
>real desire to.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the Marines we are talking about serve a hereditary Emperor and a<BR>
group of hereditary noble, who owe their position in society not to skill<BR>
or public vote, but to accidents of birth.<BR>
<BR>
The Third Imperium is not America, and the Imperial Marines and Unified<BR>
Armies are not just the equivilants of today's USMC and USA with better<BR>
guns. I drew from Russian, Imperial Japanese and Victorian British models<BR>
when doing the design.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:26:04 -0700<BR>
From: Glenn St-Germain <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies <BR>
<BR>
>And my take on the star trek universe is that it more closely resembles<BR>
>a cradle to grave sociallist egalitarianism than a market driven capitalism.<BR>
<BR>
Yet Ben Cisco's father owns and operates a restaurant in New Orleans.<BR>
Private enterprise in a socialist state? Doesn't seem right somehow.<BR>
<BR>
>The members of starfleet are the exceptional creme de la creme who<BR>
>actively seek excitement and intrigue. I always picture the rest of the<BR>
>society as hanging out at sidewalk cafes drinking black coffe and writing<BR>
>execrebal poetry or somesuch personaly satisfying but economically<BR>
>useless persuits. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Whereas I always pictured the rest of society sitting at home in their <BR>
easy chairs watching TV all day... :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 08:29:34 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There's a *lovely* SF short story from an old Analog (that I've seen in<BR>
> at least one anthology) that has the super high tech landing team mark<BR>
> a planet off limits because of the untraceable, undetectable weapons<BR>
> that took out half the landing team.<BR>
><BR>
> Turns out that they were taken out by a TL 0 native who was hiding in<BR>
> the bushes and used a blowgun...<BR>
<BR>
Again, isn't this the sort of thing that competent advanced TL forces should<BR>
be able to overcome trivially? Even at TL8 we have IR sensors, motion<BR>
sensors, and soon to be completed sensors which can give you a sniper's<BR>
location from the track of his bullet. What will TL9 bring? TL10? At TL13<BR>
(guesstimate?) you even get neural activity sensors. I just can't see this<BR>
happening in the real world (like Traveller, right?).<BR>
<BR>
I think that many of the scenarios of low TL triumphing over high TL are due<BR>
to the lack of vision on the part of the author or GM, because they don't<BR>
carefully think about how high TL forces would use their advanced<BR>
technology.<BR>
<BR>
At least in the US Army, they develop battlefield technology and then<BR>
overhaul doctrine to include the appropriate uses of the new technology. A<BR>
trivial example is that OPs have replaced OP/LPs due to the introduction of<BR>
night-vision devices.<BR>
<BR>
The new advanced combat rifle which we will be introducing in 2002 or so<BR>
will be awesome. An integrated HUD which will actually let you shoot around<BR>
corners. How will clever soldiers take advantage of these new features?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:42:50 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Right. A low TL force has to be commanded by a *fool* if they try to go<BR>
> head-to-head with a high-TL force.<BR>
> <BR>
> Meson screens, and artillery are *useless* against an enemy who strips<BR>
> to his skivvies, slides into the camp at night, and uses our troops own<BR>
> knives to cut their throats in their sleep. And given either skill or<BR>
> favorable weather conditions, neither IR sensors nor motion detectors<BR>
> will help.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mostly, I go for the idea that intelligent commanders *do* exist, even<BR>
> for low TL forces. And that means they will choose situations where<BR>
> your tech advantage is neutralized.<BR>
<BR>
And Turtledove's WORLDWAR series paints an elegant picture of a lower-TL<BR>
(humans) vs. higher TL (The Race) scenario. When The Race bombed Berlin and<BR>
Washington to start things off, things also went badly at first for the<BR>
humans, but they learned that the Race's TL advantage went for naught here<BR>
on Tosev 3 (Earth) because of their dogmatic ground tactics, the same used<BR>
against the Rabotevs and Hallesi. As a result, the Germans had a field day<BR>
whenever their Panzers went up against the Lizards' tanks. Commando tactics<BR>
also drove the Lizards nuts too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1910<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1911</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/13/00 2:43:08 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 13 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1911<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
Marine Mottos<BR>
RE: Deckplans and Websites<BR>
RE: wolves & vargr<BR>
RE: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG<BR>
Re: Psionic variant<BR>
Airforce motto<BR>
SF Comics<BR>
Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Java IRC client applet?<BR>
Re: Helmet Straps<BR>
Re: Helmet Straps<BR>
Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
Sandman in Traveller was RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now?<BR>
Re: Word Generators<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 10:08:56 -0700<BR>
From: Glenn St-Germain <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
>>>> Take the name of a book, film, well known phrase etc, and replace a<BR>
>>>> keyword or phrase with 'Bread Pudding'<BR>
>><BR>
>>Starburst for Extreme Bread Pudding<BR>
>><BR>
>>Norris, Archduke of Bread Pudding<BR>
>><BR>
>>The Bread Pudding of Man<BR>
>><BR>
>>Adventure 3: Twilight's Bread Pudding<BR>
><BR>
>Twilight: Bread Pudding<BR>
><BR>
>Fire, Fusion, & Bread Pudding<BR>
><BR>
>Bread Pudding Conspiracy<BR>
><BR>
>Bread Pudding: The Masquerade<BR>
><BR>
>Bread Pudding: The Apocalypse<BR>
><BR>
>Bread Pudding Designer's Workshop<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding: The Next Generation<BR>
<BR>
Star Trek: The Next Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Star Trek: Deep Space Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding Of The Vanities<BR>
<BR>
Saving Private Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
Gone With The Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
The Bread Pudding of Oz<BR>
<BR>
From Here to Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
The Bread Pudding of Larry Flynt<BR>
<BR>
Bread Pudding: Impossible<BR>
<BR>
(this is starting to get quite silly...)<BR>
<BR>
Monty Python's Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 02:41:32 -0000<BR>
From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Marine Mottos<BR>
<BR>
IMTU (A New Era Setting) the RC Marines wear a cap badge with the motto<BR>
Gibraltar on it.  Most marines don't know where this comes from but it is a<BR>
treasured unit insignia.  Anyone on list recognise it, the RC marines are<BR>
based on this unit IMTU and most of their traditions are based on<BR>
current/recent traditions.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
      And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:11:58 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Deckplans and Websites<BR>
<BR>
Well, you spelled my name wrong :)  Two f's, not one.  SJG mis-spelled my<BR>
name on Far Trader, spelling my last name DeGraaf instead of DeGraff, so<BR>
you're in good company :)<BR>
<BR>
One of the unknown links that you had I happened to glance at 'cause it<BR>
showed as having been read on my system.  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/<BR>
belongs to Mark Cook.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Benyamene'<BR>
> ZeAbe' Akella<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 12:12 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re:Deckplans and Websites (was: Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Via electronic medium on 2/12/00 6:39 PM, jimpeta@primus.com.au wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I'll back engineer the MT version<BR>
> > and see how much I can fit in and eventually put it up on my site.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh, please do. I would think that in the great big really enormously huge<BR>
> Imperium, there would be a variety of "sub-models" and am collecting<BR>
> deckplans for an upcoming campaign. There are a lot of plans on the web,<BR>
> I've got over a hundred easy. But then /some/ aren't even Traveller. NASA<BR>
> schematics, Str Frontiers, Star Wars, Star Trek. Check my site to see if I<BR>
> have you on my links page*, I've been fixing that section. I still have a<BR>
> few unidentified links and some sorting to do. But RL has been<BR>
> interfering,<BR>
> you know? ;) Eventually the links page will have further notation on link<BR>
> contents, like deckplans, etc.<BR>
><BR>
> *My ulterior motive being someone (this can mean anyone on the<BR>
> list) to test<BR>
> my latest updated format to see if it has a major design flaw. Still very<BR>
> barebones, but I'm learning html the hard way, no classes, basic handbook,<BR>
> and a variety of distractions.<BR>
><BR>
> Site--> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
> xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
><BR>
> ////////////////////////////////////////<BR>
> Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523<BR>
> IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+<BR>
> "Reality is an open ended event with no beginning and no end."<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:12:02 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: wolves & vargr<BR>
<BR>
I'm about to play a Vargr in Roger Barr's PBEM.  I'll *definately* have to<BR>
remember that one >:D<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Michel<BR>
> Vaillancourt<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 4:53 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: wolves & vargr<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 03:20 AM 2/13/00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
> >In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Maybe the first couple of kills against a unit would be silent.<BR>
> >> Then give the opposition time to find the mauled bodies of<BR>
> >> their comrades. After that and the occasional howl will have<BR>
> >> a wonderfully demoralizing effect. (Though if one of your opponents<BR>
> >> is wearing a greay cloak with a pointy hood watch out for fire.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Better still, hit them while they are sleeping and pull the "kill one<BR>
> >man per tent" bit. *Then* howl as you ex-filtrate...<BR>
> >--<BR>
> >Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
><BR>
>         There is a certain sort of brilliance that figures into<BR>
> if the 3i is<BR>
> "Turks in Space" that the Vargr Extents are "Gurkahs in Space"....<BR>
><BR>
>         --Michel<BR>
><BR>
> 	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
> 	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
> 				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
> 	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
> 	    NET-City Communications....<BR>
> 	         Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"<BR>
> 	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
> 	***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
> 	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:17:03 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'D actually mentioned it about a year ago or so.  Don't know if<BR>
that's what you're thinking about.  I never did get around to playing with<BR>
Worldcraft.  I'm used to REAL 3D programs :)  The IDEAL situation is if we<BR>
(and there are several TML'ers that I know of with it) could build the<BR>
levels in Lightwave, then have them converted easily into the game engine.<BR>
Alas, I don't think this is possible, though I know that Red Storm uses 3D<BR>
Studio Max to build there Rainbow Six & Rogue Spear levels.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 7:24 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 2/12/00 7:13:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,<BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > Technical Questions of Walkthrough CD for SJG  (was  Mottoes/Nicknames)<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >  A copy of Half-Life costs ~$40 USD.  RealityStudio is ~$200.<BR>
> Unfortunately,<BR>
> >  I have no idea how much the QTVR authoring tools are.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  There you have it.  Hard choices.<BR>
> >  The trade-offs summarized:<BR>
> >  1.Compatibility - While the majority of folks use either Windows or Mac<BR>
> >  based machines, there are plenty of folks out there with Linux, etc.<BR>
><BR>
> I think SJG will go with whatever costs less and makes the most money.<BR>
> Therefore you're probably limited to Windows or MAC machines.<BR>
><BR>
> >  2.Cost - Whether a)licensed game engine, b)released as a level<BR>
> which leads<BR>
> >  to further cost for the consumer, or c)purchasing panoramic<BR>
> software of one<BR>
> >  type or another, there is cost involved for either the<BR>
> consumer, SJG, or<BR>
> the<BR>
> >  artists creating the content.<BR>
><BR>
> Seeing the Azhanti with possible combat events would be the best<BR>
> commercial<BR>
> bet (and you'd get sales outside of Traveller players).<BR>
><BR>
> >  3.Perceived Value of the Product - Game engine gives most<BR>
> fluid exploration<BR>
> >  and movement, while the panoramic software has better cross platform<BR>
> ability<BR>
> >  as the cost of movement and screen size.<BR>
><BR>
> Other advantages with the game engine are as you stated for<BR>
> including Chamax<BR>
> bugs or Zhodani warbots.<BR>
><BR>
> >  Let's get some feedback going!  What would the customer, i.e.<BR>
> you folks on<BR>
> >  the TML, like to see?<BR>
> >  Also, if anyone has any more detailed information or other ideas about<BR>
> >  solutions, by all means please share!!  :)<BR>
><BR>
> Someone else was planning at doing something like this a couple<BR>
> of years ago<BR>
> I think. If I have time I'll see if I can go through my archives<BR>
> (yeah right).<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:22:42 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
Warning, occult content!<BR>
<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>The "Empress Wave" effects made me think of a old idea I had back in the<BR>
early 80's.  I thought what if a few people even have latent psi abilities<BR>
(I postulated maybe about 5% of the population), called anapsi (or<BR>
deadheads).  Furthermore take that futher, and have a sport called psinulls<BR>
(maybe 1-5% of the deadhead population) that not only are incapable of psi<BR>
activity but actively dampen psi powers like a psionic black hole.  They had<BR>
a rating like the psionic rating which gave the radius of effect (1m radius<BR>
from the psinull per level) of psionic dampening.  It would take a psi with<BR>
a power rating higher than the psinull to use their psi abilities.  Of<BR>
course there would be a feedback effect on the effected psi user causing<BR>
headaches that alert the psi of psinull presence.  Haven't used psinulls in<BR>
years, but they are still in my notes.  May or may not post the idea on my<BR>
site. Really not certain if it was a good idea, though some of my players<BR>
liked it.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Isaac Bonewits discusses this effect in his book "Real Magic" which is VERY<BR>
good.  Isaac was an occultist who went to UC-Berkeley and did a serious<BR>
study of parapsychology and magickal tradition and got them to give him a<BR>
degree in it.  Anyhow, he mentions this effect which he calls "catapsi" as<BR>
it is a form of psychic ability, and I can attest, after having done circle<BR>
work since I was 17, that this effect exists.  There are some people that<BR>
you really can't even meditate well in the presence of.  They are usually<BR>
very skeptical because of course, nothing "psychic" ever works in their<BR>
presence.<BR>
<BR>
Bonewits surmised that some of the famous "psychic debunkers" in whose<BR>
presence the talents of people who had been seen to do things reliably and<BR>
reproducibly in the past failed, might actually be catapsis or what you're<BR>
calling psinulls.<BR>
<BR>
I know that such a person once, with great malice, asked me to do a tarot<BR>
reading, and not only did the cards not work, they never worked right again<BR>
after-- I had to get a new deck.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 07:53:24 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
It is also the Aussies (RAAF). Bugger it ... stop stealing our bloody mottos!<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
It should also (IMHO) the IN motto (Through Strengh, the stars). Rather niffty,<BR>
eh?<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:01:00 -0500<BR>
From: "Jeff &Michelle Norton" <jmnorton@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: SF Comics<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
>>>Oh, and there are few good comics for Traveller plots as well, the<BR>
original<BR>
>>>"A Distant Soil", "Six from Sirius", "Alien Legion", "Grimjack" ,<BR>
"Nexus",<BR>
>>>"Dirty Pair".<BR>
>><BR>
>> And don't forget:<BR>
>><BR>
>> "Buck Godot, Zapgun for Hire"!!<BR>
<BR>
>Only if you get rid of Smith & Wesson. Those two are just *too*<BR>
>unbalancing!<BR>
<BR>
>- --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
Yea, I kinda remember a bar-fight like that while serving in Germany.<BR>
Being a large MP, and, outnumbered by gawd-knows-how-many,I got<BR>
knocked over a table,  the tabletop rolled off, with me behind it, and<BR>
wishing I could either unleash my Colt or do a Godot...<BR>
Ah, memories, sweet memories.....<BR>
<BR>
Then, what about the rat?<BR>
And how about PSmith? That would be one heck of an adventure....<BR>
<BR>
- -Jeff<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:46:55 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani for A-OK<BR>
<BR>
Snake Eyes <snake.eyes@att.net> puts forth on the Ether:<BR>
>At 07:03 AM 2/13/2000 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> >At 19:22 12.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> > >Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
> >Gashimeku kaalariin.<BR>
> >:-)<BR>
> >At least this is what Solomani say...<BR>
>I thought "Gashimeku Kaalariin" was the source of the Vilani "Signal GK" --<BR>
>which (as far as I recall) is more or less synonymous with the Terran SOS<BR>
>or Mayday.  If so, that would be a far cry from A-OK.<BR>
<BR>
You are exactly right.  Ingo also knew this when he made his post.<BR>
It's humor.  A statement about Solomani feelings toward Vilani hardware, <BR>
safety there of.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
"Meatspace" - The physical world (as opposed to the virtual world), also<BR>
"carbon community."<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:05:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Feb 00, at 14:29, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:21 PM 2/11/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
> >In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> >My *last* name on the other hand....<BR>
> <BR>
> You would be amazed at the number of people who don't believe that my last<BR>
> name is spelled with an e. I get "Barry" all the time.<BR>
> <BR>
> Kirsten has gone on the war path over people mispelling/mispronouncing her<BR>
> name as Kristen.<BR>
<BR>
A friend of mine, also called "Kirsten" counts herself fortunate - <BR>
she's Danish, and the rest of her family have names that are pronounced <BR>
in ways that Eglish speakers don't seem to comprehend, whereas her name <BR>
is _almost_ the same in English and Danish. Her last name "Jepson" <BR>
gives all sorts of problems, too.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:05:01 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Feb 00, at 12:21, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Consider my name. Leonard Erickson.<BR>
> <BR>
> I've only seen two ways to spell my first name:<BR>
>  Leonard<BR>
>  Lenard<BR>
> Though far too many people want to call me "Leo", "Len", "Leon", and<BR>
> <grr> "Lenny".<BR>
> <BR>
> My *last* name on the other hand....<BR>
>  Ericsen		Ericson<BR>
>  Eriksen		Erikson<BR>
>  Ericksen	Erickson<BR>
>         Ericssen	Ericsson<BR>
>  Erikssen	Eriksson<BR>
>  Erickssen	Ericksson<BR>
> <BR>
> Or in "shorthand": Eri[c|ck|k][s|ss][e|o]n<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm amazed I see as *few* misspellings of my name as I do.<BR>
<BR>
My sirname "Boleyn" gets mangled in the most amazing ways. It's not <BR>
usually mispelled much (though I do see "Boylen" from time to time), it <BR>
just gets mutated. I get mail for "Bullen", "Boyden", "Bowlen", <BR>
"Bowden", etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:05:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Feb 00, at 19:35, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 05:07 PM 2/12/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >And then there is my married name.... people just don't want to believe<BR>
> >that our last name is just like the money, so its just automatic to say<BR>
> >'just like the money' when I'm giving my name to anyone.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Berry, as in in Straw or Blue."<BR>
<BR>
Once upon a time "Boleyn, like Anne Boleyn" worked, but it has since <BR>
become ineffective. I blame modern education (or rather the lack <BR>
thereof).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:05:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Feb 00, at 0:36, Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, I just can't see the Marines chosing any slogan other than "Semper<BR>
> Fidelis." Not because the wee little jarheads can't learn any more latin,<BR>
> but because they're too damn stubborn to want to learn anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Who said the Imperial Marines were decended from the US Marines? What <BR>
if their main traditions stem from the French Foreign Legion (like in <BR>
Pournelle's books)?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:10:09 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Java IRC client applet?<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is planning on offering - on an experimental<BR>
basis - a Java IRC applet so that users with Java-enabled<BR>
browsers can visit #traveller without needing to install and<BR>
configure an IRC client on their own machine.  We have found one<BR>
applet - called jPilot jIRC - that meets our needs; however,<BR>
there are some aspects of it that are less than fully<BR>
satisfactory.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone knows of any other Java IRC client applets - preferably<BR>
free ones - please let us know!<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in <BR>
this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:05:01 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Helmet Straps<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Feb 00, at 8:04, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I found out that I am officially an Old Soldier now. There are NCOs who<BR>
> never fired the M-16A1, never saw the M-60 used as a squad support weapon,<BR>
> and never soaked their feet in their helmet. -- <BR>
<BR>
I've been one of those for years. Here it would be never fired the <BR>
M16A1, never saw the GPMG (FN-MAG) used at section level, never used <BR>
the M203. However there are Even Older Soldiers - those who used SLRs <BR>
(I missed out by a year).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:21:16 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Helmet Straps<BR>
<BR>
Yepper, I was in one of the last basic training companies that qualified<BR>
with the M-14 and the hand grenade. I also qualified with the M-79 in 1971<BR>
at Ft. Hood Texas. I did familiarization with the M-3 "grease gun" there<BR>
too. To add to that, I later qualified with the M-203, M-60, M-2, M16A1,<BR>
M16A2, .38 caliber pistol and the .45 caliber Colt Model 1911. I wouldn't<BR>
dream of listing all of the "foreign" weapons that I familiarized with (as<BR>
if I could remember anyway...)<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 5:05 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Helmet Straps<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 11 Feb 00, at 8:04, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I found out that I am officially an Old Soldier now. There are NCOs who<BR>
> > never fired the M-16A1, never saw the M-60 used as a squad support<BR>
weapon,<BR>
> > and never soaked their feet in their helmet. --<BR>
><BR>
> I've been one of those for years. Here it would be never fired the<BR>
> M16A1, never saw the GPMG (FN-MAG) used at section level, never used<BR>
> the M203. However there are Even Older Soldiers - those who used SLRs<BR>
> (I missed out by a year).<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
><BR>
> An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:37:47 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Empress Wave (was Re: British imperialism, et al.)<BR>
<BR>
At 22:51 -0500 11/2/00, Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org> wrote:<BR>
>How would Longbow II detect the Empress Wave though? IIRC, Longbow II is<BR>
>basicly just an<BR>
>optical telescope array several sectors across. If the Empress Wave is<BR>
>moving at c, then Longbow will first see it when the first Longbow element<BR>
>gets hits by the wave.<BR>
<BR>
"I am sorry. That information is not available at your security clearance."<BR>
<BR>
"Possession of the knowledge that such information exists is treasonable."<BR>
<BR>
"Please report to the nearest Termination Centre to exorcise your <BR>
treason. Have a Nice Day!"<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:44:15 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Sandman in Traveller was RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now?<BR>
<BR>
At 9:11 -0500 12/2/00, Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> wrote:<BR>
> > Shades of John Dee in Gaiman's "The Sandman: Preludes and Nocturnes"?<BR>
><BR>
>That's exactly what I thought of... of course, it was a lot worse when<BR>
>Dee took over the lady doing the children's puppet show on tv...<BR>
><BR>
>I wonder how many Sandman stories could be turned into Traveller adventures?<BR>
>_That_ would be a stretch.<BR>
<BR>
1) Well, JTAS's Brubeks gives a shot at the Inn in World's End.<BR>
<BR>
2) The diner scene could be done with a Psion (as pointed out earlier).<BR>
<BR>
3) The serial killer's convention would fit right in with the TML <BR>
discussion recently - maybe at Efate?<BR>
<BR>
4) You could work the plot of the Furies after Morpheus in quite well <BR>
too, but as an analogy.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:45:19 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Word Generators<BR>
<BR>
At 13:58 -0500 12/2/00, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:<BR>
> >I can move it to BITS if you prefer....<BR>
><BR>
>No need to move it. I thought there was a link from the BITS website, though.<BR>
<BR>
Will check tomorrow...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:28:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
At 11:05 AM 2/14/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Sorry, I just can't see the Marines chosing any slogan other than "Semper<BR>
>> Fidelis." Not because the wee little jarheads can't learn any more latin,<BR>
>> but because they're too damn stubborn to want to learn anything else.<BR>
><BR>
>Who said the Imperial Marines were decended from the US Marines? What <BR>
>if their main traditions stem from the French Foreign Legion (like in <BR>
>Pournelle's books)?<BR>
<BR>
The main influences I drew from:<BR>
<BR>
The USMC<BR>
The Royal Marines<BR>
The 82nd Airborne Division<BR>
Russian Spetsnatz<BR>
US Army Rangers<BR>
The FFL<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1911<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1912</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 13 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1912<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
Re Copyright issues<BR>
Re Imperial Law<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Deckplans and Websites<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
Re: Sandman in Traveller was RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
SF Comics<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:42:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
<BR>
But first, a question. Many of the filks in The Silly Era's filk section<BR>
are fairly serious. What would y'all think of a separate filk section to my<BR>
pages, with a link from both Sylea DP and TSE?<BR>
<BR>
While you think about that, here's my latest creation. Based on one of my<BR>
favorite CSN tunes (got to see the do it entirely acoustic a few years<BR>
back.) Comments welcomed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Trin's Veil<BR>
<BR>
Original words and music: "Southern Cross" by Stephen Stills, Richard<BR>
Curtis and Michael Curtis<BR>
Parody by Douglas Berry<BR>
<BR>
Signed aboard a Far Trader heading Rimward<BR>
Coming down from the Regina vicinity<BR>
Carrying sixty-five tons of mixed cargo<BR>
Bound for the up-port orbiting Treece<BR>
<BR>
Heading through Lanth just making some easy money<BR>
But trying so hard just to run from all my yesterdays<BR>
From each stop I would send you some X-Mail<BR>
But one night in jump I finally knew why we went astray<BR>
<BR>
Think about...<BR>
<BR>
Think about how many times the stars have called me onward<BR>
New worlds I have to see, the old ones just discarded<BR>
I pray you don't think of me as cold and empty-hearted...<BR>
<BR>
I have traveled 'round the Main<BR>
Hoping - Hoping to break these chains<BR>
Of the memories that still remain<BR>
<BR>
and someday I will<BR>
<BR>
When you see Trin's Veil for the first time<BR>
You know just how small a man's dreams can be<BR>
'Cause you might be hurting now from my actions<BR>
But tomorrow is a new day, you'll forget all about me<BR>
<BR>
So I'm leaving in the morning for the Outrim<BR>
And my love for you will come along, no matter how hard I beg<BR>
I have my ship and a cargo that needs to be lifted<BR>
She is all that I have left, and Beowulf is her name<BR>
<BR>
Think about...<BR>
<BR>
Think about how many times the stars have called me onward<BR>
New worlds I have to see, the old ones just discarded<BR>
I pray you don't think of me as cold and empty-hearted...<BR>
<BR>
I have traveled 'round the Main<BR>
Hoping - Hoping to break these chains<BR>
Of the memories that still remain<BR>
<BR>
And you know I will<BR>
<BR>
And someday I will<BR>
<BR>
I have lived all my life wandering the starlanes<BR>
And I've never had a home, for me it's just a word<BR>
I just ask, please, look up at the night sky<BR>
And know that I'm still out there, but I wish I was still with you<BR>
<BR>
Underneath Trin's Veil<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:25:57 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Copyright issues<BR>
<BR>
>Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Copyright doesn't protect ideas.  It protects particular expressions<BR>
>> of ideas.  If your idea doesn't qualify for a patent, its FREE GAME.<BR>
><BR>
>This certainly makes sense. But in light of this, what is the basis for<BR>
>these (anecdotal?) suits or threats of suits against GDW by <insert<BR>
>appropriate villain> because they based game material upon an idea in a<BR>
>particular work of fiction?<BR>
<BR>
Part of that is that copyright protects the particular expression, and<BR>
that's MORE than just the text itself. Unique Elements are also protected<BR>
by intellectual property laws... as recognizable trademarks. Or from<BR>
attempts to devalue  the intellectual properties of another...<BR>
<BR>
So, nobody can stop me from writing a novel or a roleplaying game about<BR>
late 18th century brittish detectives. Or even mentioning the Good Dr.<BR>
Holmes. However, if Dr. Holmes is the Main Character, it is a violation of<BR>
the intellectual property rights of AC Doyle's Estate... to wit, If I use<BR>
the distinctive mannerisms, but none of the prose, nor the name, They can<BR>
sue, but have to proove it's just Sherlock under another name. However, If<BR>
I do use Sherlock Holmes, and do it poorly, I can be sued for devaluation<BR>
of their property. Even though those are not explicitly copyright issues,<BR>
nor exclusively trademark issues. (Although Sherlock Holmes is a TM of the<BR>
AC Doyle Estate.)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:48:48 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
>> I make the distinction to provide additional plot complications.<BR>
><BR>
>That's very understandable from a Ref's POV but it seems<BR>
>an over reading of canon sources.<BR>
><BR>
>It seems to me that if some careers conveyed "Citizen"<BR>
>status then it should be listed in the character generation<BR>
>and mustering out section of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
The implication is that only those careers listed, which are woefully<BR>
incomplete, and tend to be ones that can be justified as "for the good of<BR>
the imperium" with the possible exception of barbarians. Even pirates can<BR>
be justified if you use the bit in several of the wargames that the<BR>
imperium can draft mercenary units, then liscencing of pirates is akin to<BR>
mercenaries, and thus for the good fo the imperium, due to providing a<BR>
cadre of commerce raiders.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>The Imperium exists for the benefit of the ship owners not<BR>
>for the benefit of the ships passengers. Allowing American style<BR>
>litigious excess into the process seems contrary to the<BR>
>descriptions of the limited nature of the Imperium. If the<BR>
>Imperium is going to say what sorts of contracts are valid<BR>
>and what sort of contracts are invalid then they are no longer<BR>
>the limited government they are described as.<BR>
><BR>
No, the imperium exists for the good of the nobility (and thus the<BR>
imperium), not the ship owners. You can only sue, IMTU, for violations of<BR>
the basic Citizen's rights: Life, contract and Property.<BR>
<BR>
>If the Imperium does not even stop its inhabitants from going<BR>
>to war with each other but merely has a set of rules, The<BR>
>Imperial Rules of War, that slightly limit the conduct of these<BR>
>wars then why are they going to worry about weather or not<BR>
>you unwisely consented to travel on my Law Level G Starship?<BR>
<BR>
If you go on a Law Level G homeport starship, they still have to justify to<BR>
the admirality why they killed you. On the other hand, don't be surprised<BR>
when they take away everything but your underwear, a survival bubble, and a<BR>
copy of their approved readings, lock you in your SR with the integral<BR>
fresher, and provide you food, water, and keep the temerature where that's<BR>
safe. Such treatment is fine. If they kill you, tho' they have to be able<BR>
to justify it to persons who may not agree with the laws.... and thus risk<BR>
"Judicial Nullification" or "Jury Nullification". If you don't arrive at<BR>
all, they'd better have good forgers... or excellent documentation that you<BR>
walked the airlock of your own free will.<BR>
<BR>
>Stopping people from going to war with each other is generally<BR>
>held to be a more basic governmental function than enforcing<BR>
>contract law. If the Imperium allows private wars why the<BR>
>deleted wouldn't they allow private contracts?<BR>
<BR>
Stopping warfare is NOT the hallmark of governments. Not historically, at<BR>
least. Reserving the right to engage in war is. And the Imperium has<BR>
reserved that right externally. Internal warfare is not stopable (see del<BR>
civios(sp?) de los Angeles, more commonly known as L.A., as an example);<BR>
instead, the imperium choses to limit it, regulate it, and allow it;<BR>
enforcement is easier.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, colonial governors in the Brittish Empire could engage in Local<BR>
Wars, provided they didn't need regular armies. Limited, but allowed.<BR>
Colonial armies were common through the BE. Certain ones which grew out of<BR>
control became Brittish wars... like the french and indian war, for which<BR>
the 13 american colonies were billed for the rescue.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:50:37 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/13/00 6:07 AM, mmaley@home.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've spent all my life getting my name mispelled.  I still correct<BR>
> people tactfully.  I've had it spelled Maley, Mally, Mailey, Mahly,<BR>
> Malley, Malloy, and even Maly.  The last one was amusing since it came<BR>
> from a nationwide genealogical service and is a Polish surname complete<BR>
> with coat of arms, etc.  I find it more amusing than annoying.<BR>
> <BR>
> darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
Considering names tend to get corrupted over time, that may be your coat of<BR>
arms! Probably not, but maybe. Thankfully my given name is easy to spell,<BR>
although I have had folks ask how to spell Benjamin. Seems easy to me.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: I imagine this happens a lot in the 3I with all those long Vilani<BR>
names and odd vowel structures.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:37:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Deckplans and Websites<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/13/00 11:11 AM, jdegraff@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, you spelled my name wrong :)  Two f's, not one.  SJG mis-spelled my<BR>
> name on Far Trader, spelling my last name DeGraaf instead of DeGraff, so<BR>
> you're in good company :)<BR>
<BR>
Fixed it. I may be in good company, but I hate poor spelling. I don't use a<BR>
spell checker 'cuz I don't want to be dependent on it. Of course misspelling<BR>
a name isn't as bad, as many names have more than one spelling, but still.<BR>
<BR>
> One of the unknown links that you had I happened to glance at 'cause it<BR>
> showed as having been read on my system.  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/<BR>
> belongs to Mark Cook.<BR>
<BR>
Got it, And it looks like I get the terminal today, so I may get a chance to<BR>
fix some more links. The computer I write the page on is not net capable, so<BR>
there is a substantial delay between my fixy-fixy and actual updates to the<BR>
page.<BR>
<BR>
Site--> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:06:29 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
At 11:43 AM 2/13/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:42:50 -0500<BR>
>From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>And Turtledove's WORLDWAR series paints an elegant picture of a lower-TL<BR>
>(humans) vs. higher TL (The Race) scenario. When The Race bombed Berlin and<BR>
>Washington to start things off, things also went badly at first for the<BR>
>humans, but they learned that the Race's TL advantage went for naught here<BR>
>on Tosev 3 (Earth) because of their dogmatic ground tactics, the same used<BR>
>against the Rabotevs and Hallesi. As a result, the Germans had a field day<BR>
>whenever their Panzers went up against the Lizards' tanks.<BR>
<BR>
In WORLDWAR, it's not true that the Germans "had a field day." Rather, the<BR>
German panzer<BR>
forces (TL6 humans vs. TL7-8 lizards) suffered massive losses, and otheir<BR>
tactical<BR>
skill allowed them to _survive_ and inflict a few minor losses in return --<BR>
cf, p. 67 of In the Balance,<BR>
where "... he'd just fought the most successful small-unit action against<BR>
the lizards... and<BR>
to what result? Only the final destruction of his tank company." Turtledove<BR>
is a realist: TL6<BR>
tanks, well handled, can inflict at best minor damage to TL8 armor with air<BR>
support. It is only with<BR>
later specialized weapons (nukes, lucky hits with railway guns on ship) or<BR>
in urban infantry combat, or <BR>
later, when the Germans and others develop more advanced weaponry, that<BR>
things become more even.<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:16:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I've spent all my life getting my name mispelled.  I still correct<BR>
> people tactfully.  I've had it spelled Maley, Mally, Mailey, Mahly,<BR>
> Malley, Malloy, and even Maly.  The last one was amusing since it came<BR>
> from a nationwide genealogical service and is a Polish surname complete<BR>
> with coat of arms, etc.  I find it more amusing than annoying.<BR>
<BR>
Those "services" that want to sell you "your family's" arms and history<BR>
are almost universally *scams*. For one thing, unless you are the first<BR>
son of the first son... all the way back to the person who was awarded<BR>
the arms, *you* aren't entitled to them. <BR>
<BR>
Second, they *make up* arms. I once had my modem line in the phone book<BR>
as "MacHinery, I.M." (ie I am machinery.). And I got one of those<BR>
offers addressed to "Mr. MacHinery". <BR>
<BR>
I've often kicked myself for not sending away, just to see what sort of<BR>
nonsense they came up with.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:27:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
At 07:06 PM 2/13/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In WORLDWAR, it's not true that the Germans "had a field day." Rather, the<BR>
>German panzer forces (TL6 humans vs. TL7-8 lizards) suffered massive losses, <BR>
>and otheir tactical skill allowed them to _survive_ and inflict a few minor <BR>
>losses in return -- cf, p. 67 of In the Balance, where "... he'd just fought <BR>
>the most successful small-unit action against the lizards... and <BR>
>to what result? Only the final destruction of his tank company." Turtledove <BR>
>is a realist: TL6 tanks, well handled, can inflict at best minor damage to <BR>
>TL8 armor with air support. It is only with later specialized weapons <BR>
>(nukes, lucky hits with railway guns on ship) or in urban infantry combat, <BR>
>or later, when the Germans and others develop more advanced weaponry, that<BR>
>things become more even.<BR>
<BR>
That and the Exalted Fleetlord's nightmare.. he's just lost his last<BR>
landcruiser in an armor duel, and a Tosevite machine fresh from the factory<BR>
chugs onto the field.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:43:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>><BR>
> The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
> <<<<BR>
><BR>
> It is also the Aussies (RAAF). Bugger it ... stop stealing our bloody mottos!<BR>
> :-)<BR>
><BR>
> It should also (IMHO) the IN motto (Through Strengh, the stars). Rather <BR>
> niffty, eh?<BR>
<BR>
Only problem is that "ardua" isn't "strength, it's "hard work" or<BR>
"difficulties". <BR>
<BR>
"Overcoming difficulties to reach the stars..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:21:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> There's a *lovely* SF short story from an old Analog (that I've seen in<BR>
>> at least one anthology) that has the super high tech landing team mark<BR>
>> a planet off limits because of the untraceable, undetectable weapons<BR>
>> that took out half the landing team.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Turns out that they were taken out by a TL 0 native who was hiding in<BR>
>> the bushes and used a blowgun...<BR>
><BR>
> Again, isn't this the sort of thing that competent advanced TL forces should<BR>
> be able to overcome trivially? Even at TL8 we have IR sensors, motion<BR>
> sensors, and soon to be completed sensors which can give you a sniper's<BR>
> location from the track of his bullet. What will TL9 bring? TL10? At TL13<BR>
> (guesstimate?) you even get neural activity sensors. I just can't see this<BR>
> happening in the real world (like Traveller, right?).<BR>
<BR>
Sure, they've got an IR signature in the bushes. Several of them. But<BR>
this was the *first landing*. Which contacts are animals and which are<BR>
natives? <BR>
<BR>
And tracking a "bamboo sliver" ain't gonna happen. Your sensors will go<BR>
nuts tracking the local flies long before you get that sensitive.<BR>
<BR>
NAS? Maybe. But that's one of the harder to justif sensors. And again,<BR>
they were on a *new* planet. I suspect that an NAS has to be<BR>
"calibrated" for various species.<BR>
<BR>
> I think that many of the scenarios of low TL triumphing over high TL are due<BR>
> to the lack of vision on the part of the author or GM, because they don't<BR>
> carefully think about how high TL forces would use their advanced<BR>
> technology.<BR>
<BR>
The author in the story did a *very* good job. But part of the problem<BR>
was that the party was looking for *high tech* explanations.And the<BR>
lack of wounds didn't help (they weren't distinhuishable from insect<BR>
bites).<BR>
<BR>
> At least in the US Army, they develop battlefield technology and then<BR>
> overhaul doctrine to include the appropriate uses of the new technology. A<BR>
> trivial example is that OPs have replaced OP/LPs due to the introduction of<BR>
> night-vision devices.<BR>
><BR>
> The new advanced combat rifle which we will be introducing in 2002 or so<BR>
> will be awesome. An integrated HUD which will actually let you shoot around<BR>
> corners. How will clever soldiers take advantage of these new features?<BR>
<BR>
But the point here is *average* or even slightly *below* average high<BR>
TL troops against *smart* low TL troops. <BR>
<BR>
Cleverness counts for more than TL.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:37:49 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Sandman in Traveller was RE: Gaming Artists: Where are they now?<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 3) The serial killer's convention would fit right in with the TML<BR>
> discussion recently - maybe at Efate?<BR>
<BR>
Damn that is what I thought we where having here...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:34:00 -0500<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 2:28 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The main influences I drew from:<BR>
> <BR>
> The USMC<BR>
> The Royal Marines<BR>
> The 82nd Airborne Division<BR>
> Russian Spetsnatz<BR>
> US Army Rangers<BR>
> The FFL <--------------------------------<BR>
How come the "Fantasy Football League"? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:58:53 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
On 13 Feb 00, at 16:21, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> There's a *lovely* SF short story from an old Analog (that I've seen in<BR>
> >> at least one anthology) that has the super high tech landing team mark<BR>
> >> a planet off limits because of the untraceable, undetectable weapons<BR>
> >> that took out half the landing team.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Turns out that they were taken out by a TL 0 native who was hiding in<BR>
> >> the bushes and used a blowgun...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Again, isn't this the sort of thing that competent advanced TL forces<BR>
> > should be able to overcome trivially? Even at TL8 we have IR sensors,<BR>
> > motion sensors, and soon to be completed sensors which can give you a<BR>
> > sniper's location from the track of his bullet. What will TL9 bring?<BR>
> > TL10? At TL13 (guesstimate?) you even get neural activity sensors. I<BR>
> > just can't see this happening in the real world (like Traveller,<BR>
> > right?).<BR>
> <BR>
> Sure, they've got an IR signature in the bushes. Several of them. But this<BR>
> was the *first landing*. Which contacts are animals and which are natives?<BR>
<BR>
Besides from what I've seen from IR scopes vegitation blocks IR fairly <BR>
well, so you get these blobs where there's LOS through the bush, and no <BR>
overall shape. It'd take a good pattern recogntion system to put that <BR>
together into something useful.<BR>
 <BR>
> And tracking a "bamboo sliver" ain't gonna happen. Your sensors will go<BR>
> nuts tracking the local flies long before you get that sensitive.<BR>
<BR>
Especially if they fly in straight lines, unlike Terran ones.<BR>
<BR>
> NAS? Maybe. But that's one of the harder to justif sensors. And again,<BR>
> they were on a *new* planet. I suspect that an NAS has to be "calibrated"<BR>
> for various species.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC it's not even a little bit man-portable until TL15, anyway (and <BR>
has terrible range).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:40:03 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
Someone wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
<BR>
Then someone else wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Overcoming difficulties to reach the stars..."<BR>
<BR>
Isn't this also the state motto of some US state? Maybe Iowa? I recall<BR>
looking this up years ago when I first saw the phrase on the side of a ship<BR>
in that lamest of series "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century." (Although I<BR>
still used to watch it when it was on at midnight on the Sci Fi channel).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:12:13 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: SF Comics<BR>
<BR>
"Jeff Norton" <jmnorton@earthlink.net> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>> Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
>>>>Oh, and there are few good comics for Traveller plots as well, the<BR>
original<BR>
>>>>"A Distant Soil", "Six from Sirius", "Alien Legion", "Grimjack" ,<BR>
"Nexus",<BR>
>>>>"Dirty Pair".<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> And don't forget:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> "Buck Godot, Zapgun for Hire"!!<BR>
><BR>
>>Only if you get rid of Smith & Wesson. Those two are just *too*<BR>
>>unbalancing!<BR>
><BR>
>And how about PSmith? That would be one heck of an adventure....<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 Nah. "Tax Day" (Issue #1 of "The Gallimaufry").<BR>
<BR>
 I'm told that a compilation volume of The Gallimaufry is due shortly...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:11:57 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Someone wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
> <BR>
> Then someone else wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> "Overcoming difficulties to reach the stars..."<BR>
> <BR>
> Isn't this also the state motto of some US state? Maybe Iowa? I recall<BR>
> looking this up years ago when I first saw the phrase on the side of a ship<BR>
> in that lamest of series "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century." (Although I<BR>
> still used to watch it when it was on at midnight on the Sci Fi channel).<BR>
> <BR>
Come to think of it, that'd probably be the motto of the Federal Directorate<BR>
of Earth.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
Ring Master, The Battlestar Galactica Web Ring<BR>
<BR>
NO MORE FELGERCARB! Support the Revival!<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws/galactica<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:16:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> << David Dietrick >><BR>
><BR>
> D-e-i-<BR>
><BR>
> Dave, like Marc, dislikes it when people mispell his name, but they are<BR>
both<BR>
> too polite to mention it.<BR>
<BR>
Is that German and pronounced Dye-trick or English and<BR>
pronounced Dee-trick (or would that be Day-trick?)?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:18:03 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> I used to drive by an Ethiopean resturant in San Jose every day, and I<BR>
> always wondered what the hell they served?<BR>
<BR>
Whenever I go downtown (Sacramento), I usually walk past<BR>
an Ethiopian restaurant and while I didn't recognize any of<BR>
the items on the menu (posted outside) the smells coming<BR>
out are quite inviting.  One of these days I'm going to stop<BR>
in there for lunch and find out.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 copyright 2000  by Jason Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
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are hereby granted to the Traveller Mailing List.<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:26:32 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
From: DaveShayne <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
> >From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<snip><BR>
> >In Star Trek, capitalism<BR>
> >flourishes, not so much in base needs, but in housing, education,<BR>
> >entertainment, and recreation, plus the few things replicator technology<BR>
> >can't produce. So, with abundant power sources, the economy becomes one<BR>
> >driven by the costs of producing the raw materials not replicateable.<BR>
><BR>
> If you handwave that some known and understood moolecules are not<BR>
> replicateable than there will be areas of relative scarcity. I'm not sure<BR>
> that<BR>
> I would believe such a handwave though. Something that can kick out a<BR>
> passable crepe suzette on demand can probalby deal with any number<BR>
> of incredibly complex and ticklish substances. Just a supposition though.<BR>
<BR>
My understanding of ST's replicator technology is that it<BR>
cannot create matter, but only rearrange what it has<BR>
available.  In one of the novels in order to get sufficient CHON<BR>
for a large replication project they had to pick up a great deal<BR>
of matter from an Oort Cloud snowball.  According to several<BR>
episodes of TNG and Voyager, there are some complex<BR>
substances that cannot be replicated correctly.  In fact, the<BR>
stuff that comes out of a replicator is not in fact an exact<BR>
duplicate of a crepe suzette, it's just close enough to fool the<BR>
palette and provide nutrition.  I also understand that a true<BR>
connoisseur will find the output of a replicator disgusting.  So<BR>
that in the final analysis, the replicator is just a fancy high<BR>
tech version of MREs.  Even from ST:OS we know that<BR>
complex things like blood cannot be replicated, at least not<BR>
blood that would be usable as blood was intended to be use<BR>
by the body.<BR>
<BR>
> >In<BR>
> >short, driven by the cost of Hydrogen and the demand for antimatter,<BR>
> >dilithium, and educational opportunity.<BR>
><BR>
> Hydrogen is effectively free. Antimatter once seperate containment<BR>
> is possible is reasonably easy to make (Lab particle accellerators and<BR>
> a couple of magnets and lots of power {effectively free from the fusion})<BR>
> The star trek universe has always struck me as a universe with unlimited<BR>
> educational opportunity. The most elite school (starfleet academy)<BR>
> admits anybody who can pass the entrance exam. You can take the<BR>
> exam as often as you like. I don't ever hear mention of tuition rates<BR>
> or needing to get scholarships or whathaveyou to attend. I assume<BR>
> lesser institutions will have easier entrance requirements. (if less<BR>
> prestigious programs.)<BR>
<BR>
This is also not correct,  StarFleet Academy has a limited<BR>
number of positions available and entrance exams are only<BR>
the first cut.  If you will recall, when Wesley Crusher was<BR>
trying to get into the academy, he competed against 3 other<BR>
students for the final cut.  In spite of the fact that he was a<BR>
genius and had the recommendations of Captain Picard et<BR>
al. he still had to beat out those other 3 in order to be<BR>
accepted to the Academy.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> And my take on the star trek universe is that it more closely resembles<BR>
> a cradle to grave sociallist egalitarianism than a market driven<BR>
capitalism.<BR>
> The members of starfleet are the exceptional creme de la creme who<BR>
> actively seek excitement and intrigue. I always picture the rest of the<BR>
> society as hanging out at sidewalk cafes drinking black coffe and writing<BR>
> execrebal poetry or somesuch personaly satisfying but economically<BR>
> useless persuits. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
ST has also had some trouble keeping to its cannon.  In<BR>
some episodes, we are lead to believe that everyone has<BR>
everything they want, and yet we see Quark trying to get as<BR>
much pressed latinum (especially gold pressed latinum)<BR>
wherever, whenever and however he can.  It must be good<BR>
for something, or he wouldn't work so hard for it.<BR>
<BR>
The best I can come up with is that anyone can have the bare<BR>
necessities of life for no effort but anything beyond that must<BR>
be earned.<BR>
<BR>
However, there are planets in the Federation where things<BR>
are not so easy.  Witness the characters Yeoman Rand (OS)<BR>
and Tasha Yar (TNG) who came from such similar<BR>
backgrounds and yet are separated by what a century or<BR>
more?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1912<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1913</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 13 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1913<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: robot economics<BR>
Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
Re: robot economics<BR>
Re:  New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
Re: Testing<BR>
Imperial Law, Spacing, etc<BR>
Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
Re: Mottoes again<BR>
Re: Word Generators<BR>
RE: Stop - in the name of major wounds<BR>
RE: OT: Help needed with HTML tables.<BR>
Re: TNE-RCES List & the Empress Wave<BR>
Re: TNE-RCES List & the Empress Wave<BR>
Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
RE: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
RE: Helmet Straps<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:26:57 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: robot economics<BR>
<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
> DaveShayne writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >In short. Saturation of the economy with robotics will<BR>
> >lead to inevitable economic imballances leading to<BR>
> >the demise of the Imperial Megacorps.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
> You are crediting the megacorps with a lot of wisdom and<BR>
> forsight, not to mention goodwill.  It would be awfully<BR>
> tempting to have a few secret planets full of robots<BR>
> generating cheap goods for export.<BR>
<BR>
Hey Peez, shhhhh!  That's supposed to be a secret, so kinda<BR>
hold it down will ya?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:28:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
<BR>
In the last several decades, technology has been growing at<BR>
what some consider to be an alarming rate.  Each new<BR>
technology introduced gives rise to new social impacts.<BR>
<BR>
In school, I remember reading about how the automobile has<BR>
had a major impact upon our "societies."  The main things I<BR>
remember were dispersement and sexual morality.  Before<BR>
the introduction of easy personal transportation, people tended<BR>
to remain in the area that they were born and raised.  After<BR>
the introduction of cheap personal transportation (thank you<BR>
Mr. Ford), they became more likely to wonder off to new<BR>
territories.<BR>
<BR>
Before the introduction of the automobile, it was hard to find<BR>
privacy for recreational sex outside of the established family<BR>
setting.  After the introduction of the automobile, it became<BR>
easier.  They emphasized that sexual immorality was not<BR>
unheard of before the introduction of the automobile, but that<BR>
it became easier to "do it" and not get caught.  As evidence<BR>
of the validity of this point, how many places had a "lovers<BR>
lane" before the introduction of the automobile?  If you could<BR>
go a few miles outside of town to a lovely secluded field to<BR>
get the privacy you needed for your pre- or extra-marital<BR>
sexual activity how many people would walk the hour or two<BR>
needed to enjoy a few minutes of intimacy and then walk an<BR>
hour or two back after such pleasures?  On the other hand,<BR>
if the same trip could be made in a few minutes by way of<BR>
automobile...<BR>
<BR>
Well, you get the picture.  Now my point is that perhaps one<BR>
of the reasons that technological progression slowed is that<BR>
the societies became disenchanted with technology<BR>
interrupting their way of life.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps this disenchantment would lead to requiring<BR>
something like a Social Impact Statement before releasing<BR>
any new technology.  It would also explain why technological<BR>
uplift from without could be accomplished so much more<BR>
quickly than from within, because the technologically mature<BR>
partner in the process would have ready made statements<BR>
that could be modified to meet the local conditions.<BR>
<BR>
Here on good old Terra, there are both formal and informal<BR>
groups that evaluate new technological ideas that are<BR>
introduced in SF for possibilities of real life technology.<BR>
Perhaps there would be similar groups that would attempt<BR>
to determine social impact as well as technological<BR>
possibility.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:39:13 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: robot economics<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/13/00 7:26 PM, cybernaut@netzero.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hey Peez, shhhhh!  That's supposed to be a secret, so kinda<BR>
> hold it down will ya?<BR>
<BR>
If you look for a conspiracy, you'll find it. I'm not saying there /is/ a<BR>
conspiracy, mind you. ;)<BR>
/////////////////////////<BR>
FGMP: Friggin' Giant Mega Punch<BR>
BZA's Traveller--> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's E-Mail--> xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:42:35 -0600<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
<BR>
Oh my little stars and comets... This is oh so very good. Thank you for<BR>
sharing this with us.<BR>
<BR>
> I have lived all my life wandering the starlanes<BR>
> And I've never had a home, for me it's just a word<BR>
> I just ask, please, look up at the night sky<BR>
> And know that I'm still out there, but I wish I was still with you<BR>
> <BR>
> Underneath Trin's Veil<BR>
> <BR>
> - -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
> gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
> <BR>
> TravGeekCode: <BR>
> tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
> ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:49:13 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Testing<BR>
<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
> Whats Vilani for "A-OK"?<BR>
<BR>
A[3]-O[1]kay[4]<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
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Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:06:38 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Imperial Law, Spacing, etc<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
>Canon states that the Imperium rules "the space between the<BR>
>stars" since jump space is not between the stars than<BR>
>obviously Imperial law must not hold in jump space.<BR>
<BR>
Four responses:<BR>
     1. The statement is political windage, rather than legalese;<BR>
     2. Even if it were legalese, it just says "space" without distinguishing<BR>
between n- and j-space - therefore it can be argued that both are covered;<BR>
     3. Why do you think j-space "is not between the stars"? Since you must<BR>
traverse j-space to go from one system to another, I think that is sufficient<BR>
grounds for assuming j-space *is* between the stars;<BR>
     4. Another reference source is the adventure aboard the Tukera Lines<BR>
longliner, where one passenger (Terra Porphory <sp?>) is murdered just as the<BR>
ship jumps. In fact, this adventure is the reason DGP invented "jump dimming".<BR>
I'm sure that adventure says that "Imperial law applies", not the law of the<BR>
homeport.<BR>
<BR>
>But Imperial member worlds can, and do, have the death penalty.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Therefore the notion that Imperial subjects are supposed to<BR>
>be safe from murder only applies in places where the<BR>
>Imperium claims jurisdiction. Otherwise you are SOL.<BR>
<BR>
I thought the planet ruled out to (at least) 10 diameters, and the Imperium<BR>
ruled outside this limit. And within the main starport.<BR>
<BR>
>Would the ships captain have the right to space people for<BR>
>sedition when he was in an area controlled by a local<BR>
>government that had given him this right?<BR>
<BR>
Correct, IMHO. However, jumpspace isn't controlled by a local government (unless<BR>
it's the govt of Eskayloyt, maybe? [only for those who use the "Ancients created<BR>
j-space" theory... ;-) ;-)] )<BR>
<BR>
Walt said:<BR>
>"Thank you for the cookie.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Got any milk?"<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I'll have to give you 3 points for that one!<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:05:38 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
<BR>
Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>Before the introduction of the automobile, it was hard to find<BR>
>privacy for recreational sex outside of the established family<BR>
>setting.  After the introduction of the automobile, it became<BR>
>easier.  They emphasized that sexual immorality was not<BR>
>unheard of before the introduction of the automobile, but that<BR>
>it became easier to "do it" and not get caught.  As evidence<BR>
>of the validity of this point, how many places had a "lovers<BR>
>lane" before the introduction of the automobile?  If you could<BR>
>go a few miles outside of town to a lovely secluded field to<BR>
>get the privacy you needed for your pre- or extra-marital<BR>
>sexual activity how many people would walk the hour or two<BR>
>needed to enjoy a few minutes of intimacy and then walk an<BR>
>hour or two back after such pleasures?  On the other hand,<BR>
>if the same trip could be made in a few minutes by way of<BR>
>automobile...<BR>
<BR>
Three words: horse and wagon.<BR>
<BR>
Or just one word: horse.<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention that you didn't have to go as far to get away from<BR>
the parents...the farthest-ranging thing they had was a horse as well,<BR>
and if you'd taken the only riding horse to "go hunting..."<BR>
<BR>
Heck, most teenagers *today* would walk two or three miles for sex<BR>
without thinking twice, if they had to.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:17:30 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes again<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/13/00 9:36:27 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:40:03 -0800<BR>
 From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
 Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
 <BR>
 Someone wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
 > > The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
 <BR>
 Then someone else wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
 > "Overcoming difficulties to reach the stars..."<BR>
 <BR>
 Isn't this also the state motto of some US state? Maybe Iowa? I recall<BR>
 looking this up years ago when I first saw the phrase on the side of a ship<BR>
 in that lamest of series "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century." (Although I<BR>
 still used to watch it when it was on at midnight on the Sci Fi channel).<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Motto of the State of Kansas, USA:<BR>
    <BR>
    "Ad Astra per Aspera"<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, this means "To the stars through hard work." In the Cubscouts,<BR>
we always mangled it "George Jetson's dog has a headache."<BR>
Hey, what do you expect. We were maybe 7 years old.<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:16:27 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Word Generators<BR>
<BR>
From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
> I still have the zipped file for the "MegaTraveller GM's Aid" software.<BR>
> In addition to generating multi-syllable words (you choose how many) for<BR>
> Aslan, Vargr, Droyne, Vilani, and Zhodani, it allows the generation of<BR>
> fully customized characters based on any of the MT Advanced character<BR>
> generation rules, including those from "Vilani & Vargr" and "Aslan &<BR>
> Solomani" supplements. You can save the char to a file and Aslan chars<BR>
> can also be male or female for those who want to legally wear comfy shoes.<BR>
><BR>
>  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> It's PC-clone freeware, BTW, and I believe the zipped file is less than a<BR>
> meg in size (I need to confirm this though). The file is on my laptop<BR>
> (currently at home) but I can email a copy tonight to anyone who wants it.<BR>
><BR>
> If you'd like a copy, please email me directly rather than sending the<BR>
> request to the TML.<BR>
<BR>
I would like a copy.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:18:02 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: RE: Stop - in the name of major wounds<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin said:<BR>
>E.E. "Doc" Smith had a similar idea.  Never got past the notes stage before<BR>
>his death.  Somebody wrote a half dozen or so novels based on his notes for<BR>
>the "Family D'Albert"...<BR>
<BR>
That's "d'Alembert", and I noticed a "Jean d'Alembert" liaison officer mentioned<BR>
in one SJG's more recent TAS news stories.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:19:27 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Help needed with HTML tables.<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston said:<BR>
>Second; frames load slowly anyway (for 3 frames, you have to use 4<BR>
>HTTP GET commands).<BR>
<BR>
...But only for the first time, if you go with the rule I stated: only change<BR>
one frame at a time.<BR>
<BR>
> If you use a consistent page layout with the same<BR>
>structures on each page, then with one GET, you pick up the same<BR>
>graphics and whatnot that you have to get anyway. For further pages,<BR>
>you get them from your local cache - overall, its actually faster that<BR>
>way.<BR>
<BR>
I think I already said this, when I said:<BR>
>>Natch, if you are using pictures, refer to them with _relative references_, so<BR>
>>the browser will load the majority from cache rather than downloading the same<BR>
>>pic for every new page.<BR>
<BR>
However, you also have to have your browser set so that it doesn't refresh every<BR>
picture every time it goes to a new page:<BR>
<BR>
     Explorer: View ==> Internet Options ==> General tab ==> Settings ==> "Check<BR>
for newer versions..." radio buttons.<BR>
     Netscape: Edit ==> Preferences ==> Advanced ==> Cache ==> "Document in<BR>
cache is compared to document on network..." radio buttons.<BR>
<BR>
Let's face it, it is easy to do bad frames, and it is easy to do bad no-frames.<BR>
I have seen a number of no-frames sites that do really dicky things[1], and<BR>
frames sites which are totally dreadful[2]!<BR>
<BR>
Ah well, I guess both approaches have their place.<BR>
<BR>
[1]  ...like if they use a background bitmap that is set up with a left-hand<BR>
"margin", then overlay a table of the wrong size! If the l-h text column is too<BR>
small, the r-h text overlays the background margin. On one site, the<BR>
blue-on-blue effect makes the text impossible to read (unless you highlight the<BR>
text with a mouse - sort of screws with user-friendliness, however! ;-)<BR>
     Another good one is to use a background that is only 800 pixels across. Too<BR>
bad for those who use a larger screen size, they get it replicated, so any l-h<BR>
margin area is seen a second time. Set your picture to 1200 pixels or something.<BR>
<BR>
[2] How about where one frame is so small you cannot read anything inside it,<BR>
but they have set NORESIZE on so you can't do anything about it either!!<BR>
<BR>
For more example of bad web design, have a look at<BR>
http://www.websitesthatsuck.com.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:23:50 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: TNE-RCES List & the Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
In a post a while back dealing with the Empress Wave, someone mentioned that <BR>
a lot more discussion had been conducted on the TNE-RCES Mailing List, and <BR>
was probably available in the archives.<BR>
<BR>
I've tried finding the list through Yahoo! and Alt Vista, but I've only been <BR>
able to find stuff about two years old whose links don't work anymore. <BR>
<BR>
Can someone help me find this stuff?<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:40:08 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: TNE-RCES List & the Empress Wave<BR>
<BR>
On 02/13/00 at 11:23 PM,  Damage169@cs.com said:<BR>
<BR>
>In a post a while back dealing with the Empress Wave, someone mentioned<BR>
>that  a lot more discussion had been conducted on the TNE-RCES Mailing<BR>
>List, and  was probably available in the archives.<BR>
<BR>
>I've tried finding the list through Yahoo! and Alt Vista, but I've only<BR>
>been  able to find stuff about two years old whose links don't work<BR>
>anymore. <BR>
<BR>
>Can someone help me find this stuff?<BR>
<BR>
http://www.silent-tower.org/<BR>
<BR>
You can get to the archives or sign up for the list there.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:44:04 -0700<BR>
From: Glenn St-Germain <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Bread Pudding<BR>
<BR>
>The Bread Pudding of Larry Flynt<BR>
<BR>
That was supposed to be The Bread Pudding Vs. Larry Flynt...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:50:38 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
<BR>
Here's one I've been working on...first draft, you know.<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
(Based on "The Moonshiner", Irish traditional)<BR>
<BR>
I've been a poor merchant for terms without end,<BR>
on a paid-off Free Trader my die rolls I'll spend,<BR>
I'll go to some sector and start a trade comp-a-nee,<BR>
and I'll pack my crew roster with a bunch of PC's!<BR>
<BR>
(Chorus)<BR>
We're a hit squad with a hot rod that'll only move at 1G,<BR>
Our trading's more raiding, or out-right piracy,<BR>
But our GM is our good friend, we'll all get off scott-free,<BR>
You just can't beat a Type A when it's full of PC's!!<BR>
<BR>
I'll hire a Navy man for a Drive Hand and an Army El-Tee,<BR>
he could cook or serve drinks if he had Jack-o-T,<BR>
A noble lout for his SOC clout and his pouch of credd-ies,<BR>
And I'll fly her myself, 'cause I've got Pilot three!<BR>
<BR>
(Chorus)<BR>
<BR>
We found a sub merchant on a trip to Ruie,<BR>
Her captain was friendly and asked us to tea,<BR>
His cargo and his ship's safe he gave us for free,<BR>
'Cause you can't beat a type-A when it's packed with PC's!<BR>
<BR>
(Chorus)<BR>
<BR>
Our GM (such a good friend) was moaning to me,<BR>
Said his game was a mess, though it seemed good to me,<BR>
We had zap-guns and mega-tons of gear up to our knees,<BR>
When he shrugged, and zap-gunned our ship packed with PC's!<BR>
<BR>
(Chorus)<BR>
<BR>
Now my game group's disbanded to far-off cities,<BR>
I'm a TML subscriber, with my posts I am free,<BR>
I think I'll join in a new game, with a new referee,<BR>
So I can rule the whole Empire in a session or three!<BR>
<BR>
(Chorus)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Copyright 2000 Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:54:38 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
> >>><BR>
> The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
> <<<<BR>
><BR>
> It is also the Aussies (RAAF). Bugger it ... stop stealing our<BR>
> bloody mottos!<BR>
> :-)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I believe it is also the British airforce motto (RAF), which is<BR>
where we stole it from. We wouldn't steal anything from an Aussie, wouldn't<BR>
know where it had been.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
> It should also (IMHO) the IN motto (Through Strengh, the stars).<BR>
<BR>
"Through adversity/struggle/conflict _to_ the stars" is the correct<BR>
translation,<BR>
<BR>
"ardua" is not used to mean "strength, and "ad" in this context means "to"<BR>
<BR>
But you're right, it's a good IN motto.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:57:19 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> >Yes exactly what I am saying: The profit motive alone will<BR>
> >deter Captain Bligh types in the Imperium, therefore it is<BR>
> >not necessary for laws to exist. If you are foolish enough<BR>
> >to ride on a ship from a Law Level G planet you are just<BR>
> >as screwed as if you had chosen to go to this planet.<BR>
> <BR>
> If people won't ride on these ships, they won't make a profit,<BR>
> and thus as merchant ships they will not exist.<BR>
<BR>
Not all passengers buy their own tickets, some have their tickets <BR>
purchased for them by their employer or government. Similarly<BR>
not all freight and cargo is shipped by its owners.<BR>
<BR>
Who says that the presence of extreme law levels on board a <BR>
ship will stop people, other than player characters, from <BR>
riding on these ships. It seems to me that you are over generalizing<BR>
from what people in "free" countries would do. If these people<BR>
are _from_ a planet that has law level G then conditions on<BR>
board ship will be no different than they have been used to all<BR>
their lives. In fact if I was from a law level G planet and<BR>
I ever intended to come home I would not dare to ride on an off<BR>
planet ship as I would not be able to prove that I had not<BR>
been exposed to "dangerous outside influences". I would risk<BR>
being taken out and killed or thrown in the gulag and would<BR>
also expose my family and friends to this risk.<BR>
<BR>
What about subsidized merchant ships? Not every ship in the <BR>
canon Traveller universe has to make a profit. Many other<BR>
kinds of ships do not have to make a profit they merely have <BR>
no not actually loose money.<BR>
<BR>
> Unless passengers and cargo shippers have a guarantee that<BR>
> you aren't going to use your home planet's law against them in<BR>
> an abusive fashion, they won't use your ship - they'll use the<BR>
> ship run by people who are giving them such a guarantee.<BR>
<BR>
Who says they are _always_ going to have this choice?<BR>
I concede that they will _usually_ have this choice but<BR>
not always.<BR>
<BR>
Are you then supposing that the Imperium monitors all<BR>
on planet trade and law enforcement closely enough to<BR>
know that no one is ever punished for choosing to ship <BR>
goods in an off planet ship? Are you then supposing that<BR>
no cargo is ever shipped by agencies unconcerned with <BR>
profit? What if the cargo is owned by "The Bureau of Trade" <BR>
and Bureau of Trade regulations on this planet require that all<BR>
goods be transported on ships registered on this planet.<BR>
Does your Imperium go through all regulations of all agencies <BR>
on all planets and forbid some? Even if your Imperium forbids<BR>
such regulations suppose the influence is more subtle. What<BR>
if you have to get a permit on this planet to ship goods<BR>
off planet and it just happens to be difficult for off planet<BR>
ships to get said permit. [See the "Zilan Wine" chapter of The<BR>
Traveller Adventure for a canon example and note that Zila is<BR>
"only" law level C, although it is Amber zoned, if this is<BR>
what regulations are like at law level C imagine what they are<BR>
like at law level G. At law level G you have "severe punishment<BR>
for petty infractions" [MT  Ref's Man p. 22].<BR>
<BR>
> Peter again:<BR>
> >This sort of thing encourages the megacorps all of whose<BR>
> >ships will be required to follow company regulations and<BR>
> >the laws of the corporate homeport on board ship and will<BR>
> >discourage passengers from traveling on free traders whose<BR>
> >laws they are unsure of. This is exactly the result that the<BR>
> >mega corporations desire.<BR>
> <BR>
> The above seems to invalidate your position. If adhering to a certain<BR>
> code of law is financially harmful to a profit-minded Free Trader<BR>
> captain, he will quickly find another code of law to adhere to, if he has<BR>
> a choice - and you seem to be saying he does, simply by choosing to<BR>
> register at a different planet, or to get some kind of Imperial registry.<BR>
<BR>
Not all ships have a choice of home planet of registry. It<BR>
seems to me that a subsidized merchant must, in return for<BR>
the subsidy, be home planeted at one of the planets on its<BR>
route. It is quite possible for all the planets on its route<BR>
to _be_ extreme law level planets.<BR>
<BR>
The argument I was making was that as there was, at least in my<BR>
opinion, no canon evidence that Imperial Law applied in jump<BR>
space. Therefore I was arguing that ships law in jump space<BR>
would be based on the admiralty law of their home planets. Some<BR>
canon planets have extreme law levels. Therefore it is, in my<BR>
opinion, _possible_ for there to be ships with extreme law <BR>
levels.<BR>
<BR>
The argument for the _possibility_ of such ships says nothing <BR>
aboput the number of such ships. It is quite possible that<BR>
player charecters, especially those in a hurry to get off of<BR>
a high law level planet might well end up in a ship from that<BR>
planet and still be subject to its high law levels durring<BR>
the trip. A good example might be the situation in "Indiana<BR>
Jones and the Holy Grail": Indiana has to get out of Nazi Germany<BR>
in a hurry so he ends up getting on board a German Zepplin.<BR>
While on said Zepplin he is _still_ under Nazi control. Player<BR>
charecters _might_ end up in similar circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
Now _if_ Imperial Law applies in jump space in your Traveller<BR>
Universe that situation could not occur.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:06:56 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Helmet Straps<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rupert<BR>
> Boleyn<BR>
> Sent: Monday, 14 February 2000 11:05<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Helmet Straps<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 11 Feb 00, at 8:04, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I found out that I am officially an Old Soldier now. There are NCOs who<BR>
> > never fired the M-16A1, never saw the M-60 used as a squad<BR>
> > support weapon, and never soaked their feet in their helmet. --<BR>
><BR>
> I've been one of those for years. Here it would be never fired the<BR>
> M16A1, never saw the GPMG (FN-MAG) used at section level, never used<BR>
> the M203. However there are Even Older Soldiers - those who used SLRs<BR>
> (I missed out by a year).<BR>
<BR>
Well, I've never fired a service M16A1 or a GPMG, but one of my Corporal's<BR>
owned a black M16 (or it could have been AR15, it's been a while).<BR>
<BR>
I have also fired an M60 (for about half a second) from the back of an<BR>
Iroquois.<BR>
<BR>
As regards SLR's I've carried one of those on a "hostage" shoot ( run round<BR>
the airfield, and fire at the 'terrorist' targets, attempting to avoid the<BR>
'hostage' targets ) and never used anything else.<BR>
<BR>
I also (as I was part of the Rifle Club) got to fire the 9mm Browning (and<BR>
Stirling SMG (usually reserved for officers and SNCO's)<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1913<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1914<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Psionic variant<BR>
Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
RE: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
Re: TL of troops <BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Re Copyright issues<BR>
Welcome back Bloo (Was: Re:  JTAS Copyright Question)<BR>
Re: Psionic variant<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Welcome back Bloo <BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
THUDDD<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:58:35 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
Michael Maley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The "Empress Wave" effects made me think of a old idea I had back in the<BR>
> early 80's.  I thought what if a few people even have latent psi abilities<BR>
> (I postulated maybe about 5% of the population), called anapsi (or<BR>
> deadheads).  Furthermore take that futher, and have a sport called<BR>
psinulls<BR>
> (maybe 1-5% of the deadhead population) that not only are incapable of psi<BR>
> activity but actively dampen psi powers like a psionic black hole.  They<BR>
had<BR>
> a rating like the psionic rating which gave the radius of effect (1m<BR>
radius<BR>
> from the psinull per level) of psionic dampening.  It would take a psi<BR>
with<BR>
> a power rating higher than the psinull to use their psi abilities.  Of<BR>
> course there would be a feedback effect on the effected psi user causing<BR>
> headaches that alert the psi of psinull presence.  Haven't used psinulls<BR>
in<BR>
> years, but they are still in my notes.  May or may not post the idea on my<BR>
> site. Really not certain if it was a good idea, though some of my players<BR>
> liked it.<BR>
<BR>
The idea of "psychic damper" was introduced in around 1975 in Empire of the<BR>
Petal Throne from TSR. The phenomenon appears rarely in humans but more<BR>
commonly in nonhuman races like the Ahoggya. In the Tekumel world there are<BR>
also psychically "rich" or "barren" ideas which can complicate game play.<BR>
The author of the Tekumel system actually produced a reasonable handwave to<BR>
explain why magic exists in his world. It's fairly well described in his<BR>
Tekumel novel "The Man of Gold." I have yet to hear a really good handwave<BR>
for psionics in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Then Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bonewits surmised that some of the famous "psychic debunkers" in whose<BR>
> presence the talents of people who had been seen to do things reliably and<BR>
> reproducibly in the past failed, might actually be catapsis or what you're<BR>
> calling psinulls.<BR>
<BR>
Occam's Razor suggests another solution.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:04:40 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
<BR>
At 19:28 13.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps this disenchantment would lead to requiring<BR>
>something like a Social Impact Statement before releasing<BR>
>any new technology.  It would also explain why technological<BR>
>uplift from without could be accomplished so much more<BR>
>quickly than from within, because the technologically mature<BR>
>partner in the process would have ready made statements<BR>
>that could be modified to meet the local conditions.<BR>
<BR>
In GT:Far Trader, they suppose that the slow progression of technology in<BR>
the 3I (and its neighbours) is due to an extemely low rate of _economic_<BR>
growth, which in turn is suggested to be a result of society. <BR>
<BR>
Personnally,  would prefer a not-intendend reason: What you propose is that<BR>
its an active decision whether you introduce new tech or not - which is,<BR>
unfortunatly, not very propable in a market economy. So IMTU, it is just<BR>
that sociological problem: For some reason, societies don't progress beyond<BR>
a certain TL until they have adapted to new tech - (which could mean that<BR>
today, we are on a much higher "sociological" TL than "actual" TL, hence<BR>
the fantastic rate of progress during the last decades...<BR>
<BR>
>Here on good old Terra, there are both formal and informal<BR>
>groups that evaluate new technological ideas that are<BR>
>introduced in SF for possibilities of real life technology.<BR>
<BR>
But their influence is not very strong* in modern day democratic societies,<BR>
so I dion't think they woul be strong in a feudalistic (IMTU, almost<BR>
totalitarian) 3I.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*Remember, we measure history of technological progress in the 3I in<BR>
_centuries_, not years...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:03:55 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> My sirname "Boleyn" gets mangled in the most amazing ways. It's not<BR>
> usually mispelled much (though I do see "Boylen" from time to time), it<BR>
> just gets mutated. I get mail for "Bullen", "Boyden", "Bowlen",<BR>
> "Bowden", etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I always try to get names spelled correctly because they are<BR>
one of the few things that some people can actually claim as<BR>
their own.  I remember the first time I saw Rupert's last<BR>
name, I thought, just like Anne, one of the wives of that<BR>
infamous King of England.<BR>
<BR>
Sure enough she was a relly of his. Great (* N) aunt or<BR>
cousin or some such.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 copyright 2000  by Jason Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
First electronic publication and electronic archival rights<BR>
are hereby granted to the Traveller Mailing List.<BR>
<BR>
All other rights reserved.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:13:40 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
> > And tracking a "bamboo sliver" ain't gonna happen. Your sensors will go<BR>
> > nuts tracking the local flies long before you get that sensitive.<BR>
><BR>
> Especially if they fly in straight lines, unlike Terran ones.<BR>
<BR>
Which reminds me of those little supersonic metallic bugs in another SF<BR>
story,<BR>
that made bullet-like holes in people before they figured out what was<BR>
happening.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:12:26 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops <BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Consider the case of a nice fast jet fighter like the Air Force just<BR>
> *loves*. Put it up against a biplane. Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
> guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
> interesting because the *top* speed of the biplane is below the *stall*<BR>
> speed for the jet. And the biplane can turn a lot sharper.<BR>
<BR>
An interesting comment. I would guess that the radar cross section of the<BR>
F-22 must be about the RCS of a biplane, since the biplane has a huge chunk<BR>
of metal sitting around unshielded (the engine), while the F-22 is fairly<BR>
stealthy. So I would guess that any missile which can lock onto an F-22 can<BR>
also take out a biplane. In addition, the F-22 will be firing a missile from<BR>
many miles away in which case the maneuverability of the biplane will not<BR>
matter, since it will have to outmaneuver a missile rather than another<BR>
aircraft.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose at the end of the day that I will take the high TL force and let<BR>
Leonard fight in the low TL force.<BR>
<BR>
A more intersting question is one of training and doctrine. Do Imperial<BR>
troops vary their doctrine according to the TL of the adversary? Do they<BR>
train for missions against different TL adversaries?<BR>
<BR>
When I was in the US Army I used to know the capabilities and limitations of<BR>
all of the Russian equipment. What the effective ranges of all of their<BR>
weapons were, how much they could elevate or depress their guns, the<BR>
effective ranges of our weapons against their systems, and so on. Can you<BR>
imagine Imperial troops knowing this type of imformation about all of their<BR>
potential adversaries?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:24:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
> Sounds to me like IYTU, people who travel to uninhabited planets<BR>
> are completely at the mercy of the Captain and crew taking them<BR>
> there. If that is the case, then no one will travel to an uninhabited<BR>
> planet unless they are travelling on their own ship, or have the<BR>
> numbers and skills to travel without fear of the crew.<BR>
<BR>
Funny that you should mention it, because we have at least<BR>
one real world instance of exactly this happening.  A whole<BR>
colony of English settlers were hijacked to another place and<BR>
put under a contract that they never agreed to in advance, all<BR>
for the profit of an unscrupulous ship's captain.<BR>
<BR>
> How many people travel alone to uninhabited planets? Is this a common<BR>
> situation anyway? I don't think you can take such a rarity and use it<BR>
> as a means for dismissing the authority of Imperial law.<BR>
<BR>
The colonists I mentioned were a very large group, fully<BR>
capable of taking care of themselves.  Eventually, they made<BR>
a go of the colony that they were forced to form.  They<BR>
complained to Imperial authorities, but the monarchy did<BR>
nothing about it.  They were stuck.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:32:52 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
>> The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
>> <<<<BR>
>><BR>
>> It is also the Aussies (RAAF). Bugger it ... stop stealing our<BR>
>> bloody mottos!<BR>
>> :-)<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, I believe it is also the British airforce motto (RAF), which is<BR>
>where we stole it from. We wouldn't steal anything from an Aussie, wouldn't<BR>
>know where it had been.<BR>
><grin><BR>
>Frankie<BR>
<BR>
    Do you Kiwi's have an airforce? Ha! And sheep might fly!<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:48:13 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> >> I make the distinction to provide additional plot complications.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >That's very understandable from a Ref's POV but it seems<BR>
> >an over reading of canon sources.<BR>
> >It seems to me that if some careers conveyed "Citizen"<BR>
> >status then it should be listed in the character generation<BR>
> >and mustering out section of the rules.<BR>
> <BR>
> The implication is that only those careers listed, which are woefully<BR>
> incomplete, and tend to be ones that can be justified as "for the good of<BR>
> the imperium" with the possible exception of barbarians. Even pirates can<BR>
> be justified if you use the bit in several of the wargames that the<BR>
> imperium can draft mercenary units, then liscencing of pirates is akin to<BR>
> mercenaries, and thus for the good of the imperium, due to providing a<BR>
> cadre of commerce raiders.<BR>
<BR>
Where do you get such an implication? All I see in Sup 4<BR>
is a list of careers that the writers of the supplement thought<BR>
might make interesting and/or common characters or non player<BR>
characters. I do not see any social implications of the<BR>
lack of other careers.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> >The Imperium exists for the benefit of the ship owners not<BR>
> >for the benefit of the ships passengers. Allowing American style<BR>
> >litigious excess into the process seems contrary to the<BR>
> >descriptions of the limited nature of the Imperium. If the<BR>
> >Imperium is going to say what sorts of contracts are valid<BR>
> >and what sort of contracts are invalid then they are no longer<BR>
> >the limited government they are described as.<BR>
> ><BR>
> No, the imperium exists for the good of the nobility (and thus the<BR>
> imperium), not the ship owners. <BR>
<BR>
The way I would put is that the Imperium exists for the<BR>
benefit of the _rich_. Many rich people have noble titles.<BR>
Others simply have so many billion credits worth of Mega<BR>
Corporation stock that they are quite likely to get favorable<BR>
treatment from the Imperium. A Noble with a fief has the<BR>
best of both worlds: title and assets (although obviously<BR>
some fiefs are almost worthless, most will have some commercial<BR>
value.) Based on my perceptions of the Traveller Universe I <BR>
would put the correlation coefficient between "has an inheritable <BR>
noble title of some sort" and "comes from a family with a <BR>
family wealth of at least 100x the norm" at 0.75 or better.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU ceteris paribus, and absent differing noble titles,<BR>
the individual with the most wealth will be treated the best.<BR>
The individual with the better title will be better treated <BR>
on social occasions but the individual with more money will<BR>
have more pull.<BR>
<BR>
To quantify it in GURPS Traveller terms, (which I am using<BR>
for the purposes of this example because they best <BR>
quantify it.)<BR>
<BR>
Wealth Level		Income 		Status Bonus<BR>
<BR>
Wealthy			x      5		+1<BR>
Multimillionaire	x  1,000		+2<BR>
Multimillionaire/2	x 10,000		+3<BR>
[rules per GURPS Comp I p. 27]<BR>
<BR>
Ships cost millions of credits. Therefore most characters<BR>
that have paid cash, not points, for a ship will need to<BR>
have taken the Multimillionaire Advantage. Therefore they<BR>
will have positive social status bonuses.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU if you are a knight and I am a Multimillionaire<BR>
with no title (not that I should not be able to get a<BR>
title in my family by marrying my children off to poor<BR>
nobles) you will have a higher "status" for social<BR>
and some legal purposes but I will be treated just as<BR>
well, if not better, by most people. You have paid<BR>
10 points for SOC +2 and I have received SOC +3 for<BR>
free when I paid 100 points for Filthy Rich & Multi-<BR>
millionaire/2.<BR>
<BR>
As a Knight [based on what I have seen of your Traveller <BR>
Universe] you probably have 5 points of Legal Immunity<BR>
[may always demand to be judged by another Noble] that<BR>
I, the multimillionaire, do not but this is a case of the<BR>
Noble Title allowing or requiring the purchase of the<BR>
Legal Immunity advantage and not an automatic freebie.<BR>
In addition, as a Knight you have a Feudal Duty which<BR>
I, as a Multimillionaire, do not. Although arguably<BR>
all charecters in the Imperium have a duty to it I'm not<BR>
sure it comes up frequently enough for it to be a<BR>
_Duty_ worth points in GURPS terms in the same way that an<BR>
an American does not get any points for having to serve<BR>
jury duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:33:25 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Section G does protect SJG from being implicated in the _original_ violation<BR>
> of posting copyright material to the discussion board ( as long as they<BR>
> remove it on request )<BR>
><BR>
> But it does _not_ protect them in the scenario I described, where _they_ are<BR>
> violating copyright again by using that materiel for other purposes or<BR>
> claiming their own copyright over it.<BR>
<BR>
They would be if not for Section G.  It puts the burden on the poster<BR>
so that SJG doesn't have to worry about it.  The section is designed to<BR>
prevent allegations of contributory infringement.<BR>
<BR>
> If Section G did protect them from this, then SJG could happily re-publish<BR>
> the entire D&D series if someone posted it to their discussion board.<BR>
<BR>
A ridiculously extreme hypothetical case, but what the hell.<BR>
If someone with apparent authority to do so, agreed to the subscriber<BR>
agreement, that would be a contract for transferal of the copyright.<BR>
In the case of D&D material, it would not be reasonable to believe that<BR>
Eneri X had legitimate authorty to do post the material.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> This is exactly the same as recieving stolen goods, while you can claim<BR>
> anything you want in any agreements with the person you bought them from,<BR>
> you're still breaking the law by receiving stolen goods.<BR>
<BR>
The key element in that crime is _knowledge_.  If I steal your teddy<BR>
bear (assuming it hasn't got your name or other non-removable indicia<BR>
of ownership on it)  and go sell it to a pawn shop, the pawn shop has<BR>
committed no crime even though they have received stolen goods.<BR>
<BR>
The agreement puts the burden on you to _not_ violate the copyright<BR>
of another. And since this agreement must precede any potential<BR>
post, it is fairly strong.  You post someone elses copyrighted material,<BR>
SJG later publishes something containing same, and gets sued by that<BR>
someone else, by operation of the subscriber agreement, they bring<BR>
you into the case and get out of it themselves (I'll spare you the<BR>
legal procedure terminology), so its your ass in the fire.<BR>
<BR>
I hope you can understand it now because I don't think I can make it<BR>
any clearer for you.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:51:34 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Copyright issues<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >This certainly makes sense. But in light of this, what is the basis for<BR>
> >these (anecdotal?) suits or threats of suits against GDW by <insert<BR>
> >appropriate villain> because they based game material upon an idea in a<BR>
> >particular work of fiction?<BR>
><BR>
> Part of that is that copyright protects the particular expression, and<BR>
> that's MORE than just the text itself.<BR>
<BR>
Outside of the derivative works protection, it pretty much is just the text<BR>
itself.<BR>
<BR>
> Unique Elements are also protected by intellectual property laws... as<BR>
> recognizable trademarks. Or from attempts to devalue  the intellectual<BR>
> properties of another...<BR>
<BR>
Well, that is sort of the right idea.  _If_ a unique element is effective<BR>
as an identifier of the source of the good or product (trademarks<BR>
always imply a commercial use), then it operates as a trademark<BR>
and it may be possible to enjoin infringing uses of that mark.<BR>
<BR>
But you really need to be careful about compartmentalizing<BR>
trademark and copyright discussions.  Too many people,<BR>
including federal appellate judges confuse them, contrinbuting<BR>
to the screwed up body of law we have now for intellectual<BR>
property.<BR>
<BR>
> So, nobody can stop me from writing a novel or a roleplaying game about<BR>
> late 18th century brittish detectives. Or even mentioning the Good Dr.<BR>
> Holmes. However, if Dr. Holmes is the Main Character, it is a violation of<BR>
> the intellectual property rights of AC Doyle's Estate... to wit, If I use<BR>
> the distinctive mannerisms, but none of the prose, nor the name, They can<BR>
> sue, but have to proove it's just Sherlock under another name. However, If<BR>
> I do use Sherlock Holmes, and do it poorly, I can be sued for devaluation<BR>
> of their property. Even though those are not explicitly copyright issues,<BR>
> nor exclusively trademark issues. (Although Sherlock Holmes is a TM of the<BR>
> AC Doyle Estate.)<BR>
<BR>
I think that may be a bad example because given the 100+ year age of<BR>
Doyle's work, the copyrights may well have expired.  So that clouds the<BR>
analysis.  Also "devaluation of property" may be confusing.  The modern<BR>
terminology is "dilution", i.e., trademark infringement by diluting the value.<BR>
But since so many states still have their own trademark laws, in addition<BR>
to the federal layer, who knows?<BR>
<BR>
Trademark discussions get very confused very quickly, so I think it<BR>
helps to be anally retentive about the issues, not that its really possible.<BR>
You should see the puzzled looks on the faces of law students when<BR>
they discover that you can trademark a color.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:55:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Welcome back Bloo (Was: Re:  JTAS Copyright Question)<BR>
<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
> I hope you can understand it now because I don't think I can make it<BR>
> any clearer for you.<BR>
<BR>
Welcome back Bloo.  You've been gone way too long and<BR>
some of these guys have gotten a little out of hand without<BR>
your calming influence.  :-)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:05:01 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
From: Luther Martin <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
> Then Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Bonewits surmised that some of the famous "psychic debunkers" in whose<BR>
> > presence the talents of people who had been seen to do things reliably<BR>
and<BR>
> > reproducibly in the past failed, might actually be catapsis or what<BR>
you're<BR>
> > calling psinulls.<BR>
><BR>
> Occam's Razor suggests another solution.<BR>
<BR>
I don't see how it could.  She specified that she was talking<BR>
about "people who had been seen to do things reliably and<BR>
reproducibly in the past".  Now if she had said the the people<BR>
in question had claimed or that others had claimed about the<BR>
people in question to be able to do etc., then Occam's Razor<BR>
might apply.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP<BR>
PPPPPPPP<BR>
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PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
c 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:11:21 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/13/00 10:44:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< The USMC<BR>
 The Royal Marines<BR>
 The 82nd Airborne Division<BR>
 Russian Spetsnatz<BR>
 US Army Rangers<BR>
 The FFL<BR>
 -- <BR>
 <BR>
 Douglas E. Berry  >><BR>
<BR>
What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of me... I loved <BR>
what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:15:32 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Welcome back Bloo <BR>
<BR>
"Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Welcome back Bloo.  You've been gone way too long and<BR>
> some of these guys have gotten a little out of hand without<BR>
> your calming influence.  :-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Me? Calming?!  Mwahaha!<BR>
<BR>
 Just wait until I get up to speed on the Imperial Law thread.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:25:30 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Someone wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > > The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
><BR>
> Then someone else wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > "Overcoming difficulties to reach the stars..."<BR>
><BR>
> Isn't this also the state motto of some US state? Maybe Iowa? I recall<BR>
> looking this up years ago when I first saw the phrase on the side of a ship<BR>
> in that lamest of series "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century." (Although I<BR>
> still used to watch it when it was on at midnight on the Sci Fi channel).<BR>
<BR>
That sounds familiar.  I believe it was also used by Asimov and another<BR>
major sci-fi author as the motto for Nasa-like organizations.<BR>
<BR>
Dumb motto for an _air_ force.  Its like a ground army talking about<BR>
the moon.  "Per pedia ad luna"?  (Through feet to the moon") [Not versed<BR>
in Latin].<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:27:09 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD<BR>
<BR>
Was there anyone who wanted to submit a design for the<BR>
Modular Cutter design competition that didn't get one in<BR>
before the deadline?<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
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GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:45:55 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
"Who Dares Wins" baby!!!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:11 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 2/13/00 10:44:16 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
> gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << The USMC<BR>
>  The Royal Marines<BR>
>  The 82nd Airborne Division<BR>
>  Russian Spetsnatz<BR>
>  US Army Rangers<BR>
>  The FFL<BR>
>  -- <BR>
>  <BR>
>  Douglas E. Berry  >><BR>
> <BR>
> What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of <BR>
> me... I loved <BR>
> what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:59:46 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of me... I loved<BR>
> what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
<BR>
 Uh, Why?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:04:40 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
> > If Section G did protect them from this, then SJG could happily<BR>
> > re-publish the entire D&D series if someone posted it to their<BR>
> > discussion board.<BR>
><BR>
> A ridiculously extreme hypothetical case, but what the hell.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I agree, but it points out the flaw in your argument.<BR>
<BR>
> If someone with apparent authority to do so, agreed to the subscriber<BR>
> agreement, that would be a contract for transferal of the copyright.<BR>
<BR>
I agree, but we're not talking about someone with the appropriate authority.<BR>
<BR>
> In the case of D&D material, it would not be reasonable to believe that<BR>
> Eneri X had legitimate authorty to do post the material.<BR>
<BR>
Of course not, but this is the whole point, in _no_ case is it 'legally'<BR>
reasonable for a publisher to assume that any poster has legitimate<BR>
authority to post the material.<BR>
<BR>
In _all_ cases the publisher would not be excercising, what is it? due care?<BR>
if they published relying _only_ on 'Section G'.<BR>
<BR>
They would have to show that they had at least gained written comfirmation<BR>
of the posters authority to provide the materiel to stand any chance of a<BR>
defence.<BR>
<BR>
Hell, as this is an electronic forum we'e talkimg about, they can't even be<BR>
reasonably sure that it was in fact the person who agreed to Section G that<BR>
posted the materiel, unless they use some secure form of identification<BR>
verification such as a digital signature on the posts.<BR>
<BR>
> > This is exactly the same as recieving stolen goods, while you can claim<BR>
> > anything you want in any agreements with the person you bought<BR>
> > them from, you're still breaking the law by receiving stolen goods.<BR>
><BR>
> The key element in that crime is _knowledge_.  If I steal your teddy<BR>
> bear (assuming it hasn't got your name or other non-removable indicia<BR>
> of ownership on it)  and go sell it to a pawn shop, the pawn shop has<BR>
> committed no crime even though they have received stolen goods.<BR>
<BR>
Wrong. At least under British and other Roman derived legal systems.<BR>
<BR>
It is true that in many such cases the police will not prosecute, unless the<BR>
dealer makes a habit of it, but it is technically a crime to recieve stolen<BR>
goods irrespective of whether you are aware that you are doing so.<BR>
<BR>
Ignorance is never a defence.<BR>
<BR>
It is up to the buyer to ensure they are not breaking the law, and if you<BR>
have not made reasonable efforts to determine that the owner of the goods<BR>
has title, and do not show the proper amount of contrition, the police<BR>
sometimes decide to prosecute anyway.<BR>
<BR>
As I said, this is the original derivation of the term 'caveat emptor'.<BR>
<BR>
> The agreement puts the burden on you to _not_ violate the copyright<BR>
> of another. And since this agreement must precede any potential<BR>
> post, it is fairly strong.  You post someone elses copyrighted material,<BR>
> SJG later publishes something containing same, and gets sued by that<BR>
> someone else, by operation of the subscriber agreement, they bring<BR>
> you into the case and get out of it themselves (I'll spare you the<BR>
> legal procedure terminology), so its your ass in the fire.<BR>
<BR>
Irrelevant. The argument here is whether it _protects_ the publisher, which<BR>
it does not.<BR>
<BR>
The copyright holder would still require the publisher to either recall all<BR>
copies of the infringing product or make appropriate reparations, as it's<BR>
_they_ that have carried out a _second_ infringment.<BR>
<BR>
The holder's only redress against the original poster is for the original<BR>
violation, which is likely nowhere near the redress they have against the<BR>
publisher's  violation, eapecially if the publisher made any money.<BR>
<BR>
The point is that you cannot avoid being responsible for committing a crime<BR>
by saying it was sonmeone else's duty to prevent you from committing it,<BR>
even if that is said in a legal agreement ( except perhaps in the case of<BR>
diminished responsibility, wards, or minors ).<BR>
<BR>
> I hope you can understand it now because I don't think I can make it<BR>
> any clearer for you.<BR>
<BR>
You don't need to make it clearer, I fully understand what you're saying.<BR>
<BR>
I just disagree.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1914<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1915</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1915<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: THUDDD<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
RE: Airforce motto<BR>
RE: Re Copyright issues<BR>
Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics) Vearing OT<BR>
RE: TL of troops<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:10:17 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD<BR>
<BR>
"Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Was there anyone who wanted to submit a design for the<BR>
> Modular Cutter design competition that didn't get one in<BR>
> before the deadline?<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards regretfully informs the ISBA that we will be unable<BR>
to submit a design for THUDDD 11.  Our design bureau was unwilling to<BR>
compromise our quality standards to meet the cost constraints of the<BR>
proposal.<BR>
<BR>
On a brighter note for our stockholders, AuricTech Shipyards (circa<BR>
M:1115) has secured an Imperial Navy contract for 12 commerce raiders. <BR>
These twelve ships will be used as the benchmark for the upcoming THUDDD<BR>
12 design competition, to be posted for comment within the week.<BR>
<BR>
(OOC: My plans are to post the AuricTech design at the beginning of the<BR>
competition, as a standard for other design bureaux to meet or exceed. <BR>
I will also post a design for a 20kt freightliner, as a benchmark target<BR>
ship for the THUDDD 12 competition.)<BR>
<BR>
(BTW, to which mailing list is ISBA-related traffic being posted these<BR>
days?)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 02:11:12 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of me... I loved<BR>
> > what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
> <BR>
>  Uh, Why?<BR>
<BR>
Seasickness?  >;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:15:46 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Who Dares Wins" baby!!!<BR>
<BR>
Now these boys would give me the willies if any Mil organization<BR>
could.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:16:52 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of me... I loved<BR>
> > > what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  Uh, Why?<BR>
><BR>
> Seasickness?  >;-)<BR>
<BR>
Naw by the end of BUDS that is gone........<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:21:59 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
> Jim said :<BR>
>     Do you Kiwi's have an airforce?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, it keeps beating both yours and the Brits at finding submarines !<BR>
<BR>
> Ha! And sheep might fly!<BR>
<BR>
Several sheep were found stuck in the top of a tree in Otago, in such a<BR>
manner that they had obviously landed in it, not climbed it.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:28:18 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Re Copyright issues<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve<BR>
> > However, If I do use Sherlock Holmes, and do it poorly,<BR>
> > I can be sued for devaluation of their property. Even<BR>
> > though those are not explicitly copyright issues,<BR>
> > nor exclusively trademark issues. (Although Sherlock Holmes is<BR>
> > a TM of theAC Doyle Estate.)<BR>
><BR>
> I think that may be a bad example because given the 100+ year age of<BR>
> Doyle's work, the copyrights may well have expired.<BR>
<BR>
Which I suspect is exactly why they are trying to maintain the trademark, as<BR>
those don't have 100 year expiration if it kept in use. (in general)<BR>
<BR>
> Trademark discussions get very confused very quickly, so I think it<BR>
> helps to be anally retentive about the issues, not that its<BR>
> really possible.<BR>
> You should see the puzzled looks on the faces of law students when<BR>
> they discover that you can trademark a color.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Though that having been said, the only case I'm aware of where trademarking<BR>
a colour was tried (here in New Zealand, the colour Telecom used in their<BR>
web pages) was basically laughed out of court when they tried to enforce it.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, the defendant used the simple expedient of pointing out that all<BR>
versions of Windows 95, 98, NT , and Unix installations running a colour<BR>
window manager (such as Motif) with 16-bit or higher video drivers contained<BR>
a tool that also violated this trademark, and had been doing so for many<BR>
years.<BR>
<BR>
If Telecom was really serious about "defending" this trademark, they would<BR>
have had to be sueing Microsoft, HP, IBM, etc. As they hadn't, they were<BR>
obviously not serious about protecting their 'trademark' and it was fair<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that such a defence would work against most other attempts to sue<BR>
for the use of single 'trademarked' colours, though not perhaps against<BR>
colour schemes.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:00:59 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics) Vearing OT<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:26:32 -0800<BR>
>From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>> If you handwave that some known and understood moolecules are not<BR>
>> replicateable than there will be areas of relative scarcity. I'm not sure<BR>
>> that<BR>
>> I would believe such a handwave though. Something that can kick out a<BR>
>> passable crepe suzette on demand can probalby deal with any number<BR>
>> of incredibly complex and ticklish substances. Just a supposition though.<BR>
><BR>
>My understanding of ST's replicator technology is that it<BR>
>cannot create matter, but only rearrange what it has<BR>
>available.  In one of the novels in order to get sufficient CHON<BR>
>for a large replication project they had to pick up a great deal<BR>
>of matter from an Oort Cloud snowball.<BR>
<BR>
But for day to day uses the CHON on hand in the form of wastes<BR>
should probably suffice. And many millions of comets in the Oort<BR>
cloud for those special projects. That should take care of raw<BR>
material requirements.<BR>
<BR>
>According to several<BR>
>episodes of TNG and Voyager, there are some complex<BR>
>substances that cannot be replicated correctly. In fact, the<BR>
>stuff that comes out of a replicator is not in fact an exact<BR>
>duplicate of a crepe suzette, it's just close enough to fool the<BR>
>palette and provide nutrition.  I also understand that a true<BR>
>connoisseur will find the output of a replicator disgusting.  So<BR>
>that in the final analysis, the replicator is just a fancy high<BR>
>tech version of MREs.  Even from ST:OS we know that<BR>
>complex things like blood cannot be replicated, at least not<BR>
>blood that would be usable as blood was intended to be use<BR>
>by the body.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall any of those but if I was paying attention when<BR>
something like that came up I'd giggle histerically.<BR>
As I understand the replicator it's a special purpose transporter.<BR>
If the technology is capable of taking apart and then reasembling<BR>
a human being (An incredibly complex mixture of incredibly<BR>
complex substances) Then it can do damn near everything.<BR>
<BR>
But Star Trek has an incredibly good record of altering the<BR>
capabilities of it's tech for dramatic reasons so your interpretation<BR>
of sources is probably correct.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>This is also not correct,  StarFleet Academy has a limited<BR>
>number of positions available and entrance exams are only<BR>
>the first cut.  If you will recall, when Wesley Crusher was<BR>
>trying to get into the academy, he competed against 3 other<BR>
>students for the final cut.  In spite of the fact that he was a<BR>
>genius and had the recommendations of Captain Picard et<BR>
>al. he still had to beat out those other 3 in order to be<BR>
>accepted to the Academy.<BR>
<BR>
I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to that episode.<BR>
Probably due to the fact that I can't stand Wesley Crusher (IMHO<BR>
the second most annoying charecter foisted upon us by paramount<BR>
in the name of star trek. Firts place goes to Neelix. {shudder})<BR>
<BR>
But my essential point was it wasn't an economic limitation.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>ST has also had some trouble keeping to its cannon.  In<BR>
>some episodes, we are lead to believe that everyone has<BR>
>everything they want, and yet we see Quark trying to get as<BR>
>much pressed latinum (especially gold pressed latinum)<BR>
>wherever, whenever and however he can.  It must be good<BR>
>for something, or he wouldn't work so hard for it.<BR>
<BR>
Well the Ferengi have the unfortunate curse of being the<BR>
species that has to provide the comic relief for the later<BR>
ST incarnations(TNG on.) I have yet to see a ferengi centered<BR>
episode that wasn't played for laughs. (Haven't seen em all<BR>
though so YMMV) This humor aspect of their cultural identity<BR>
warps their motivations in the shows.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>The best I can come up with is that anyone can have the bare<BR>
>necessities of life for no effort but anything beyond that must<BR>
>be earned.<BR>
><BR>
>However, there are planets in the Federation where things<BR>
>are not so easy.  Witness the characters Yeoman Rand (OS)<BR>
>and Tasha Yar (TNG) who came from such similar<BR>
>backgrounds and yet are separated by what a century or<BR>
>more?<BR>
>- --<BR>
>Jason<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall anything about Rand's background from the OS is that<BR>
in a book or something. I'd've sworn I'd seen all of the originals<BR>
several times. And I didn't think Tasha's planet was a part of the<BR>
federation. They didn't have access to all of the federation tech at<BR>
any rate. (At least I don't think they did.)<BR>
<BR>
I doubt I'll post on this again because it's getting a bit OT.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:56:06 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Consider the case of a nice fast jet fighter like the Air Force just<BR>
> > *loves*. Put it up against a biplane. Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
> > guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
> > interesting because the *top* speed of the biplane is below the *stall*<BR>
> > speed for the jet. And the biplane can turn a lot sharper.<BR>
><BR>
> An interesting comment. I would guess that the radar cross section of the<BR>
> F-22 must be about the RCS of a biplane, since the biplane has a<BR>
> huge chunk of metal sitting around unshielded (the engine), while the F-22<BR>
is > fairly stealthy.<BR>
<BR>
> So I would guess that any missile which can lock onto<BR>
> an F-22 can also take out a biplane.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that even if it does lock, which is not guaranteed,<BR>
it probably won't go off unless it actually hits the engine.<BR>
<BR>
Proximity detonators won't work properly, not enough metal, and impact<BR>
detonators also likley won't work, the biplanes skin doesn't provide enough<BR>
resisitance.<BR>
<BR>
Once the jet's are aware they are up against biplanes, they'd be able to<BR>
tweak the munitions enough to make them work, but standard A-A missiles<BR>
these days would have those difficulties.<BR>
<BR>
> In addition, the F-22 will be firing a<BR>
> missile from many miles away in which case the<BR>
<BR>
And why wouldn't the bi-plane be doing the same thing ?<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Retro-fit the biplane with some avionics and a missile that can be dropped<BR>
before ignition and you have a very cheap mobile missile platform.<BR>
<BR>
> maneuverability of the biplane will not<BR>
> matter, since it will have to outmaneuver a missile rather than another<BR>
> aircraft.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it might be able to do that. Most missiles, while more<BR>
maneuverable than jets, are still travelling too fast to turn tightly enough<BR>
to follow a biplane's turn.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the simplest way for a jet fighter to take out a biplane would be<BR>
to either fly past it very fast and knock it out of the sky with turbulence,<BR>
or to vector some infantry or armour with kinetic weapons in on it.<BR>
<BR>
The first technique would be dangerous if the biplane had misiles too.<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose at the end of the day that I will take the high TL force and let<BR>
> Leonard fight in the low TL force.<BR>
<BR>
If it was an "equal" contest in a "wargames points cost" way, I suspect I'd<BR>
be betting on Leonard, assuming that for some reason the war had to actually<BR>
be won rather than just nuking the planet from orbit.<BR>
<BR>
Still, that would be an unlikely real world scenario.<BR>
<BR>
In any case where the outcome had any doubt, I'd say esprit du corps would<BR>
be more important than tech level.<BR>
<BR>
> A more intersting question is one of training and doctrine. Do Imperial<BR>
> troops vary their doctrine according to the TL of the adversary? Do they<BR>
> train for missions against different TL adversaries?<BR>
<BR>
If the Imperium has any intention of being seen as a 'nice guy', they would<BR>
have to. The US-led UN has politically lost the last two wars it has<BR>
militarily won<BR>
( Yugoslavia, Desert Storm) as has the Soviet army in Chechnia<sp?>, due to<BR>
the effects of media showing the heavy use of high tech weapons annihilating<BR>
lower tech forces.<BR>
<BR>
While the Imperium could just 'ban' media coverage, and ignore bad press, it<BR>
might need the good press.<BR>
<BR>
> When I was in the US Army I used to know the capabilities and<BR>
> limitations of  all of the Russian equipment.<BR>
> What the effective ranges of all of their<BR>
> weapons were, how much they could elevate or depress their guns, the<BR>
> effective ranges of our weapons against their systems, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
Gee, I know wargamers like that ! <grin><BR>
<BR>
> Can you imagine Imperial troops knowing this type of imformation about<BR>
> all of their potential adversaries?<BR>
<BR>
No. Their systems might, but there would be far too many for any particular<BR>
imperial soldier to remember all of them. Heck, I doubt they could remember<BR>
all the Imperial weapon systems alone.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:41:43 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Psionic variant<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
>The idea of "psychic damper" was introduced in around 1975 in Empire of the<BR>
>Petal Throne from TSR. The phenomenon appears rarely in humans but more<BR>
>commonly in nonhuman races like the Ahoggya. In the Tekumel world there are<BR>
>also psychically "rich" or "barren" ideas which can complicate game play.<BR>
>The author of the Tekumel system actually produced a reasonable handwave to<BR>
>explain why magic exists in his world. It's fairly well described in his<BR>
>Tekumel novel "The Man of Gold." I have yet to hear a really good handwave<BR>
>for psionics in Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
>Then Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Bonewits surmised that some of the famous "psychic debunkers" in whose<BR>
>> presence the talents of people who had been seen to do things reliably and<BR>
>> reproducibly in the past failed, might actually be catapsis or what you're<BR>
>> calling psinulls.<BR>
><BR>
>Occam's Razor suggests another solution.<BR>
<BR>
Occam's Razor is often wrong on elements where data is insufficient. A<BR>
wonderful tool, but one who's use must be judiciously applied.<BR>
<BR>
Human thought has been shown repeatedly, and fairly reliably, to have an<BR>
effect on random occurences. Small, but pervasive. To the point where the<BR>
amazing randi refuses to investigate or even comment. Several debunkers<BR>
have checked the results, and refuse to comment (none have made comments,<BR>
psoitive or negative). How much the ability of humans to reliably affect<BR>
the pseudo-random numbers generated by a computer translates into other<BR>
parapsychic phenomena is arguably nil... However, in this case, the<BR>
postulation of the observer affecting the event is probably a valid one to<BR>
some degree...<BR>
<BR>
One other thing of note: many researchers found with the card studies that<BR>
about equal sized portions of the samples deviated quite far from norm in<BR>
both "extremely right" and "extremely wrong", and the corelation<BR>
coefficients on both were about 0.1; not significant in and of itself, but<BR>
significant from the standpoint that on repeated testing, the same people<BR>
showed a strong propensity for the same error as previous.<BR>
<BR>
One of the postulates of quantum mechanics is that the evenis in essence<BR>
brought about by the event being observed...<BR>
<BR>
Within the traveller rules, there is an assumption that some parapsychic<BR>
ability indeed exists, and can be amplified by training and/or foci. The<BR>
one thing chronically missing was some whose parapsychic ability was<BR>
negation of the effects of others.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:50:39 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU ceteris paribus, and absent differing noble titles,<BR>
>the individual with the most wealth will be treated the best.<BR>
>The individual with the better title will be better treated<BR>
>on social occasions but the individual with more money will<BR>
>have more pull.<BR>
><BR>
>To quantify it in GURPS Traveller terms, (which I am using<BR>
>for the purposes of this example because they best<BR>
>quantify it.)<BR>
<BR>
Put simply, GT is heresy. Of the worst kind. It lacks commonality of<BR>
character generation methodology with ANY published GDW game I've seen.<BR>
<BR>
In the canon OTU, Nobility and wealth are not synonmous, nor comparable.<BR>
That noble families own the bulk of the megacorporations is. That the<BR>
Emperor and the Imperial Household own about 2-3% of all the canonical<BR>
megacorporations is canon. That they would not recieve special treatment is<BR>
illogical; a priveledged class tends to protect the whole of their<BR>
priveleged class, as they are seen as targets by all the less priveledged<BR>
classes. And the wealthy, while powerful, are NOT the major shareholders of<BR>
the Megacorps, unless they happen to be Nobility as well. Since the<BR>
Megacorps sole desire is to maintain the markets, and the markets are the<BR>
vast breadth of the population in most environments...<BR>
<BR>
Typically, the wealthy spend disproportionately less by income ammount than<BR>
the poor; a poor man spends most of his income (Usually 95% or more), while<BR>
the 1% of the population with 10-20% of the income spend usually around<BR>
3-4% of their income, assuming taxes are not counted as income. (Figures<BR>
are from memory, but were from the 1990 US Census originally). One caveat,<BR>
tho: this is based upon US tax laws, where is is possible to have an income<BR>
upon which one can live, but still hae no taxable income... The extremely<BR>
wealthy are paying up to 35% of their income.<BR>
<BR>
Of spendable income, this means that the poor man spends most to all every<BR>
unit of time; meanwhile the extremely rich spend a much lower percentage,<BR>
and so the rest of the market is more valuable if you can produce goods for<BR>
their markets. Something which only a megacorporation really can pull off.<BR>
<BR>
We know the 3I is neither pro- nor anti-monopolistic in tone; monopolies do<BR>
exist (see several published notes on worlds owned by megacorps, either<BR>
sector or 3i level, Arden coming to mind). Likewise, they don't appear to<BR>
actively protect monopolies from attempts to break them. (See TTA). We do<BR>
know that the imperium places some power in the Nobility. (See SMC). We<BR>
know that protections are unequal; many small referents exist... Canonical<BR>
nobles may have private armies (Huscarles) even where the local law level<BR>
doesn't allow for the canonical weapons (the 4058th LIR, The Duke of<BR>
Regina's own Huscarles). We know that the local worlds have extrality zones<BR>
in the starports (several adventures mention this, plus its in library<BR>
data), and that they can still prevent departures (see Exit Visa, in the<BR>
BBB).<BR>
<BR>
We don't have much data in canon on the nature of the populace, but we do<BR>
know that the Imperium does rule some worlds directly: Terra until 1107 is<BR>
directly under imperial rule. We know that there are classes of sapient<BR>
beings who are not protected as citizens of the imperium. We also know that<BR>
the imperium actively promotes trade by subsidies.<BR>
<BR>
This leads to one conclusion, (no offense, but I doub't YOU, Peter, could<BR>
see it), which may be troublesome: The imperium exists soley for the<BR>
propagation of the Imperium, and in order to remain in power must have<BR>
means of drawing persons into its service. These means, in canon, are pay,<BR>
senses of duty, loyalty, and the potential for becoming nobility. The OTU<BR>
shows us an NON-CAPITALIST imperium: see also the canonical rates of pay<BR>
for transport and shipping. They are clearly a semi-managed economy;<BR>
otherwise subsidies wouldn't exist.<BR>
<BR>
In short, the Imperium, becuase it is a group of rulers, does not behave<BR>
like individuals. but as a single entity, who'se goal is the maintaining of<BR>
the ruling power as the ruling power... through the Imperial military, the<BR>
megacorps (in essence, a subsidiary of the moot), and the Imperial<BR>
Bureacracy.<BR>
<BR>
Which means the most powerful groups have every reason to protect the<BR>
nobility: The nobility effectively controls the most powerful persons in<BR>
the most poewrful groups, and coopts the memberships of these powerful<BR>
groups to enforcing the will of the Nobility.<BR>
<BR>
There is a reason most Imperial Admirals are nobles (besides the CGen<BR>
tables in CT/MT): by coopting the ones who weren't and by making it easier<BR>
to get there if you already were, you're more likely to protect the<BR>
perquisites of the nobility... and since lower ranks are required by custom<BR>
and indoctrination to submit, in the hopes that they may eventually become<BR>
one of the ruling class, they will do what the leadership wants.<BR>
<BR>
The leaders of the Megacorps will also be likely to be nobles;<BR>
additionally, they know that if they don't do the "right" thing (by the<BR>
noble viewpoint) they will soo be out of power, and someone more pliable<BR>
will replace them.<BR>
<BR>
As to worlds: The 3I lets them fight each other for a two fold reason:<BR>
	1) This provides experienced troops subject to imperialization<BR>
	2) It pits them against each other rather than the Imperium.<BR>
This is not murder, as this is justifiable TO THE IMPERIUM. Interfereing<BR>
with trade (trade which bolsters the profits of the megacorps, BTW) is a<BR>
sure way to get the notice of the Megacorps, the Nobility, and the<BR>
bureacracy. The limit of free trade in the imperium is that ammount which<BR>
allows the maximum flow of income to the Nobility; by taking the disaffeted<BR>
intelligent, and coopting them to run goods to markets which would not<BR>
otherwise support trade flows of note, the 3I keeps them busy and out of<BR>
trouble. By fostering independant merchants, the imperium fosters not<BR>
trade, but the illusion of wealth: most merchants aren't going to be all<BR>
that wealthy... they tend to just get by. At least by all the trade<BR>
mechanics in non-GT rulesets.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, the addition of a distinction between Citizen and Subject logically<BR>
follows: it is an additional layer of coersion to behave in a pro-imperial<BR>
manner. Likewise, the basic sapient rights bit is also a bid for coopting<BR>
those who are subject to the 3I: If you know you can't be killed for<BR>
arbitrary reasons or without due process, and know that if you are, the 3I<BR>
will take some notice, then you have more reason to be pro-imperial.<BR>
<BR>
Groups do not behave like individuals; groups follow predicatable patterns,<BR>
while individuals tend  to follow merely discernable ones, but exceptions<BR>
exist. The Imperial Nobility is a group; and all groups wish to retain<BR>
their own power bases, and if possible improve them. The Megacoprs are a<BR>
group, and thus subject to predictable patterns. The Imperial Services<BR>
likewise. And the subordinate groups know that "Big Brother" 3I can take<BR>
out any one of them, or worse yet, any "malignant" sections of any of them,<BR>
and unless most of them resist simultaneously, they will be unable to fend<BR>
off the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
My 3I, while not significantly more intrusive than the OTU, day to day,<BR>
occassionally becomes intrusive, so as to keep the FEAR of intrusion<BR>
present. IMTU, there is an IRIS; they work for the moot. Dulinor really was<BR>
acting on what he thought was the best course for the 3I. Lucan really is<BR>
mad. Strephon really does mean well, but just couldn't hold it together.<BR>
Then again, IMTU, Dulinor eventually does get the throne. Virus never<BR>
existed, even in the research facility. The "Real Strephon" really is the<BR>
Real Strephon. Norris really is a bisexual, and Branj is not just his<BR>
secretary, but his lover, confidant, and friend; not to mention his Chief<BR>
Spook. Prices are set by the imperium for travel and shipping, and enforced<BR>
by the megacorps, since the directives come top down from the nobility,<BR>
through the board, to the CEO, who renews the policy for fear of his job,<BR>
and makes certain that is the case below him. In fact, you might say that<BR>
MTU is Illuminated by the Nobles as the Illuminati. Wealth matters little<BR>
off the world where it's based; what matters is how high up the conspiracy<BR>
are you: Citizen, you're an unwitting participant in the cover-up; Knight,<BR>
you're an initiate into the largest illuminated conspiracy the universe has<BR>
ever known. Archdukes, you're the masterminds of the breakdown.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:02:12 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Me? Calming?!  Mwahaha!<BR>
><BR>
> Just wait until I get up to speed on the Imperial Law thread.<BR>
><BR>
>bloo<BR>
<BR>
Oh, please do! Lessee, we currently have an Anarcho-capitalist<BR>
Quasi-Libertarian who doesn't belive in the dynamics of Groups vs the<BR>
Dynamics of Individuals, except as a plot element in literature GURPS fan<BR>
(Peter), a Quasi-royalist Green semi-humanist who doesn't belive rights of<BR>
individuals superceed the rights of the masses and has come to dislike<BR>
GURPS and especially GT (Myself), and I'm not sure about Walt Smith...<BR>
<BR>
Peter and I have whiled away many an evening (often to the wee hours of the<BR>
morning) on the topic of how the imperium operates in one or the other's<BR>
living room, and it's so much more civil when we take it to the list...<BR>
besides, we get the feedback and validation (or in-validation) of group<BR>
concensus, or at least input from others...<BR>
<BR>
What's really amazing is that, for all our differences, Peter is nagging me<BR>
to run Traveller again, and soon.... (It's been two years, now.)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:19:01 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
>Wrong. At least under British and other Roman derived legal systems.<BR>
><BR>
>It is true that in many such cases the police will not prosecute, unless the<BR>
>dealer makes a habit of it, but it is technically a crime to recieve stolen<BR>
>goods irrespective of whether you are aware that you are doing so.<BR>
><BR>
>Ignorance is never a defence.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, in systems using non-professional jurors, Ignorance is a defense,<BR>
especially if it's the joint ignorance of the Jury and the Defendant. Jury<BR>
nullification works, ladies and gentlemen. Hence, IMTU, Noble being<BR>
entitled to trial by thier peers, and hence probably being able to get a<BR>
nullification by jury for anything not outright obviously their fault. The<BR>
nobility is thus able to perpetuate a desire to be nobles amongst the<BR>
non-nobles...<BR>
<BR>
And in the case of US copyright laws, Trademark Laws, and other<BR>
intellectual property laws (Like Texas' Trade Secrets laws), ignorance may<BR>
in fact be the best defense: most intellectual property laws in the US have<BR>
some stipulation to follow intent. In fact, this is true in most of the<BR>
Murder Laws in the US:<BR>
<BR>
Typically, intent to kill is required for Murder. Manslaughter lacks intent<BR>
to kill, or at least reasonable doubt of intent to kill (although intent to<BR>
harm may exist!).<BR>
<BR>
Roman law, nee, romano-judeao-christian law, which is the basis of many<BR>
legal systems in Europe, and is the basis for US law, as well as the laws<BR>
of most US member states (Exception: Louisianna), frequently requires some<BR>
level of intent adjudication. To kill by accident is far different than to<BR>
kill by negligence, or by intent: many systems in place draw distinctions<BR>
in type or duration of punishment. Many other legal systems exist: The Code<BR>
du Napoleon has far less intent adjudication, based on what little I've<BR>
read (all of it based upon it's stepchild, Louisiana Law). Arabic law is<BR>
frequently far more action based than intent based. Then again, most legal<BR>
systems require both intent and action components: If I were to hold a gun<BR>
at another person, the Grand Jury must make a decision on whether the<BR>
intent was to kill or simply to intimidate &/or coerce, as they are<BR>
different crimes, (Assault with intent, menacing), and are yet another<BR>
crime if I can show I was in fear for my life (Self-Defense). If I shoot at<BR>
someone, it's either assault with a deadly weapon, slef defense, or<BR>
attempted murder, again depending upon my intent.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Imperial Law, as evidenced in canon, is obviously using some<BR>
adjudication: "Murder is the unreasoned taking of a sapient life."<BR>
Unreasoned directly implies requiring some decision process which allows<BR>
for the taking of sapient life in some circumstances; then this leads to<BR>
the intent issue, as well as acceptability issues.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:06:25 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
From:           	"Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Date sent:      	Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:32:52 +1100<BR>
<BR>
> >Actually, I believe it is also the British airforce motto (RAF), which is<BR>
> >where we stole it from. We wouldn't steal anything from an Aussie, wouldn't<BR>
> >know where it had been.<BR>
> ><grin><BR>
<BR>
>     Do you Kiwi's have an airforce? Ha! And sheep might fly!<BR>
<BR>
With a big enough trebuchet...<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc (who was very impressed by film of the RN testing the <BR>
first steam catapults. Who'd have guessed a piano could fly so far)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:43:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: More on TL of troops (was Re: Honey, I'm home!!!!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 13 Feb 00, at 16:21, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >> There's a *lovely* SF short story from an old Analog (that I've seen in<BR>
>> >> at least one anthology) that has the super high tech landing team mark<BR>
>> >> a planet off limits because of the untraceable, undetectable weapons<BR>
>> >> that took out half the landing team.<BR>
>> >><BR>
>> >> Turns out that they were taken out by a TL 0 native who was hiding in<BR>
>> >> the bushes and used a blowgun...<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Again, isn't this the sort of thing that competent advanced TL forces<BR>
>> > should be able to overcome trivially? Even at TL8 we have IR sensors,<BR>
>> > motion sensors, and soon to be completed sensors which can give you a<BR>
>> > sniper's location from the track of his bullet. What will TL9 bring?<BR>
>> > TL10? At TL13 (guesstimate?) you even get neural activity sensors. I<BR>
>> > just can't see this happening in the real world (like Traveller,<BR>
>> > right?).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Sure, they've got an IR signature in the bushes. Several of them. But this<BR>
>> was the *first landing*. Which contacts are animals and which are natives?<BR>
><BR>
> Besides from what I've seen from IR scopes vegitation blocks IR fairly <BR>
> well, so you get these blobs where there's LOS through the bush, and no <BR>
> overall shape. It'd take a good pattern recogntion system to put that <BR>
> together into something useful.<BR>
<BR>
And the climate was tropical anyway. Which makes IR gear *really*<BR>
useless during daytime.<BR>
  <BR>
>> And tracking a "bamboo sliver" ain't gonna happen. Your sensors will go<BR>
>> nuts tracking the local flies long before you get that sensitive.<BR>
><BR>
> Especially if they fly in straight lines, unlike Terran ones.<BR>
<BR>
Ever watch a dragonfly? Or any of a number of other flies? They *do*<BR>
fly in straight lines. Zip along straight, and then make a zig for no<BR>
logical reason (actually, the zigs are probably because they've<BR>
detected prey).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1915<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1916<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
Re: Psionic variant<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Rank names <BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Imperial Law<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Military-Government mottos<BR>
Imperial Law  and Jurisdiction<BR>
RE: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics) Vearing OT<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:49:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> My understanding of ST's replicator technology is that it<BR>
> cannot create matter, but only rearrange what it has<BR>
> available.<BR>
<BR>
That is *not* at all clear from the TV episodes. In fact, if anything,<BR>
I get the impression that they *can* easily transmute elements.<BR>
<BR>
> In one of the novels in order to get sufficient CHON<BR>
> for a large replication project they had to pick up a great deal<BR>
> of matter from an Oort Cloud snowball.<BR>
<BR>
The novels aren't "official". <BR>
<BR>
> According to several<BR>
> episodes of TNG and Voyager, there are some complex<BR>
> substances that cannot be replicated correctly.<BR>
<BR>
That I too recall. But transmutation is actually *easier* than<BR>
duplicating molecular structures.<BR>
<BR>
>  In fact, the<BR>
> stuff that comes out of a replicator is not in fact an exact<BR>
> duplicate of a crepe suzette, it's just close enough to fool the<BR>
> palette and provide nutrition.  I also understand that a true<BR>
> connoisseur will find the output of a replicator disgusting.  So<BR>
> that in the final analysis, the replicator is just a fancy high<BR>
> tech version of MREs.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe, maybe not.<BR>
<BR>
> Even from ST:OS we know that complex things like blood cannot be<BR>
> replicated, at least not blood that would be usable as blood was<BR>
> intended to be use by the body.<BR>
<BR>
ST:TOS did not *have* replicators. Period. <BR>
<BR>
Best evidence is in "The Trouble with Tribbles" where the *food<BR>
dispeners* disgorge plates and cups with tribbles in them instead of<BR>
food. The tribbles got into the automated food processing gear and eat<BR>
the food before it got dumped on the trays.<BR>
<BR>
With replicators, that wouldn't be *possible*.<BR>
<BR>
> ST has also had some trouble keeping to its cannon.  In<BR>
> some episodes, we are lead to believe that everyone has<BR>
> everything they want, and yet we see Quark trying to get as<BR>
> much pressed latinum (especially gold pressed latinum)<BR>
> wherever, whenever and however he can.  It must be good<BR>
> for something, or he wouldn't work so hard for it.<BR>
<BR>
Simple. *His* culture (and many others) has a market economy. Earth<BR>
doesn't. <BR>
<BR>
> However, there are planets in the Federation where things<BR>
> are not so easy.  Witness the characters Yeoman Rand (OS)<BR>
> and Tasha Yar (TNG) who came from such similar<BR>
> backgrounds and yet are separated by what a century or<BR>
> more?<BR>
<BR>
Again, you are using books as evidence, since the TV episodes and<BR>
movies do *not* tell us *anything* about Yeoman Rand's background. <BR>
This is a bad habit.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:13:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social Impact Statements<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>>Before the introduction of the automobile, it was hard to find<BR>
>>privacy for recreational sex outside of the established family<BR>
>>setting.  After the introduction of the automobile, it became<BR>
>>easier.  They emphasized that sexual immorality was not<BR>
>>unheard of before the introduction of the automobile, but that<BR>
>>it became easier to "do it" and not get caught.  As evidence<BR>
>>of the validity of this point, how many places had a "lovers<BR>
>>lane" before the introduction of the automobile?  If you could<BR>
>>go a few miles outside of town to a lovely secluded field to<BR>
>>get the privacy you needed for your pre- or extra-marital<BR>
>>sexual activity how many people would walk the hour or two<BR>
>>needed to enjoy a few minutes of intimacy and then walk an<BR>
>>hour or two back after such pleasures?  On the other hand,<BR>
>>if the same trip could be made in a few minutes by way of<BR>
>>automobile...<BR>
><BR>
> Three words: horse and wagon.<BR>
><BR>
> Or just one word: horse.<BR>
><BR>
> Not to mention that you didn't have to go as far to get away from<BR>
> the parents...the farthest-ranging thing they had was a horse as well,<BR>
> and if you'd taken the only riding horse to "go hunting..."<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that it wasn't at all uncommon to have blankets covering<BR>
you to well above the waist in a carriage if the weather was at all<BR>
cool. And horses, unlike cars don't need a lot of guidance. So a *lot*<BR>
could go on under that blanket...<BR>
<BR>
But if you wanted to park the wagon somewhere, you'd better find a spot<BR>
that *can't* be seen from the roads. Or the neighbors *will* talk.<BR>
<BR>
> Heck, most teenagers *today* would walk two or three miles for sex<BR>
> without thinking twice, if they had to.<BR>
<BR>
The term back in the 1800s was "sparking". A boy would go out<BR>
"sparking" with a girl. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 00:19:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Then Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Bonewits surmised that some of the famous "psychic debunkers" in whose<BR>
>> presence the talents of people who had been seen to do things reliably and<BR>
>> reproducibly in the past failed, might actually be catapsis or what you're<BR>
>> calling psinulls.<BR>
><BR>
> Occam's Razor suggests another solution.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but not necessarily the one you think. <BR>
<BR>
I have *personally* produced effects that were repeatable, and weren't<BR>
due to fakery or co-operation of the other person involved. So if they<BR>
ceased to be reatable when a particular person was around, Occam's<BR>
razor suggess that it *is* something to do with that person.<BR>
<BR>
But until we have *reliable* lie detectors, I'm pretty sceptical about<BR>
other people's claims. At least if it's to their benefit to make them,<BR>
or the effects they claim are easily faked. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 03:25:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Consider the case of a nice fast jet fighter like the Air Force just<BR>
>> *loves*. Put it up against a biplane. Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
>> guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
>> interesting because the *top* speed of the biplane is below the *stall*<BR>
>> speed for the jet. And the biplane can turn a lot sharper.<BR>
><BR>
> An interesting comment. I would guess that the radar cross section of the<BR>
> F-22 must be about the RCS of a biplane, since the biplane has a huge chunk<BR>
> of metal sitting around unshielded (the engine),<BR>
<BR>
That "huge" chunk of metal isn't all that big in early biplanes.<BR>
<BR>
> while the F-22 is fairly<BR>
> stealthy. So I would guess that any missile which can lock onto an F-22 can<BR>
> also take out a biplane.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but that's the whole *point* of being stealthy. You can't *get*<BR>
a lock on an F-22. Not with radar anyway. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In addition, the F-22 will be firing a missile from<BR>
> many miles away in which case the maneuverability of the biplane will not<BR>
> matter, since it will have to outmaneuver a missile rather than another<BR>
> aircraft.<BR>
<BR>
Again, the missile *will not* lock on a target that small. Period.<BR>
If it would, countermeasures would be a breeze.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the smarter missiles wull reject a biplane *because* it is so slow.<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose at the end of the day that I will take the high TL force and let<BR>
> Leonard fight in the low TL force.<BR>
<BR>
I suggest you check into the limitations of the high-TL gear a bit more<BR>
thoroughly first.<BR>
<BR>
> A more intersting question is one of training and doctrine. Do Imperial<BR>
> troops vary their doctrine according to the TL of the adversary? Do they<BR>
> train for missions against different TL adversaries?<BR>
<BR>
Good question. But no idea what a good answer might be.<BR>
<BR>
> When I was in the US Army I used to know the capabilities and limitations of<BR>
> all of the Russian equipment. What the effective ranges of all of their<BR>
> weapons were, how much they could elevate or depress their guns, the<BR>
> effective ranges of our weapons against their systems, and so on. Can you<BR>
> imagine Imperial troops knowing this type of imformation about all of their<BR>
> potential adversaries?<BR>
<BR>
*Way* too many "potential adversaries". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:02:21 +0000<BR>
From: Andy Coombes <coombes@bcs.org.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Rank names <BR>
<BR>
At 01:09 AM 11/02/2000 +1100, you wrote:<BR>
>I have used a Third Imperium holovid action hero:  Arnold Stallone<BR>
><BR>
>When GM-ing I sometimes use anagrams for NPC names.<BR>
><BR>
>eg:  A drunken medical officer encountered by the PC's is called Carl<BR>
>Doolich (alcoholic Dr), a cowardly former member of the Navy is Vaneser<BR>
>Rextedy (ex-navy deserter).<BR>
><BR>
>Warning to players subscribing to TML:  Sometimes I don't.<BR>
<BR>
When playing CoC once, we came across an NPC called "David Lee", which someone<BR>
quickly pointed out was an anagram for Evil Dead. Funnily enough ISTR he<BR>
turned<BR>
out to be a good(-ish) guy.<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:47:34 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> When I was in the US Army I used to know the capabilities and<BR>
limitations of<BR>
>> all of the Russian equipment. What the effective ranges of all of their<BR>
>> weapons were, how much they could elevate or depress their guns, the<BR>
>> effective ranges of our weapons against their systems, and so on. Can you<BR>
>> imagine Imperial troops knowing this type of imformation about all of their<BR>
>> potential adversaries?<BR>
><BR>
>*Way* too many "potential adversaries". <BR>
<BR>
This might kill the "travel to the battle in low berths" concept completely.<BR>
<BR>
You'd need those couple of months in transit to train for your expected<BR>
adversary.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 04:03:49 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> >IMTU ceteris paribus, and absent differing noble titles,<BR>
> >the individual with the most wealth will be treated the best.<BR>
> >The individual with the better title will be better treated<BR>
> >on social occasions but the individual with more money will<BR>
> >have more pull.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >To quantify it in GURPS Traveller terms, (which I am using<BR>
> >for the purposes of this example because they best<BR>
> >quantify it.)<BR>
<BR>
> Put simply, GT is heresy. Of the worst kind. <BR>
<BR>
Tell us how you really feel. :)<BR>
<BR>
> It lacks commonality of<BR>
> character generation methodology with ANY published GDW game I've seen.<BR>
<BR>
You are the one who has said that to you Traveller is<BR>
represented by the background and the Imperium. Since<BR>
GURPS Traveller has these why is it heresy? Character<BR>
generation system is a different question from background. <BR>
But that's not the point I was trying to make and I am sure you <BR>
could tell this if it were not for the fact that your<BR>
inherently Whiggish nature reacts poorly to change. Yes <BR>
some aspects of previous Traveller canon (as I understood it)<BR>
are not perfectly represented and reflected by GURPS Traveller <BR>
and I do not like this any more than you do but character <BR>
generation is a means, not an _end_. <BR>
<BR>
If you, as referee, wish to represent a reality where <BR>
individuals do not have control complete control over <BR>
their development (similar to random character generation) <BR>
then you can use a system of random charecter generation, <BR>
a random number of points, random career entry, referee fiats,<BR>
or some other method of ensuring that the player can not <BR>
completely control the charecter development process. You do<BR>
not have to throw out the baby with the bath water.<BR>
<BR>
The purpose of a charecter generation system is presumably to<BR>
create a character. Some people, myself included, prefer<BR>
charecter generation systems which include advantages and <BR>
disadvantages (GURPS and dozens of others) to charecter <BR>
generation systems which do not include advantages, or <BR>
which include only certain types of advantages (previous<BR>
forms of Traveller and dozens of others). <BR>
<BR>
> In the canon OTU, Nobility and wealth are not synonmous, nor comparable.<BR>
<BR>
I did not say they were synonymous what I said was that<BR>
if you drew a venn diagram with three groups in it "the<BR>
rich" "the Noble" and "the influential" these groups would<BR>
strongly overlap in the my perception of the official<BR>
Traveller Universe.<BR>
<BR>
> That noble families own the bulk of the megacorporations is.<BR>
<BR>
_No_ they apparently do not, or if they do such<BR>
ownership is hidden. See the data below which show that<BR>
the combined ownership of the mega corp. by their founding<BR>
families (not all of whom are canonically noble), noble <BR>
families, and the Imperial household is only 38% (although<BR>
it is 52% of all ownership not owned by other companies.)<BR>
<BR>
What we need to know, and do not, is to what extent nobles<BR>
own mega corp. stock under the categories: private,<BR>
corporate trusts, and "other".<BR>
<BR>
> That the<BR>
> Emperor and the Imperial Household own about 2-3% of all the canonical<BR>
> megacorporations is canon.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperial family does not own _any_ of Instellarms.<BR>
[At least unless said ownership is under another name.]<BR>
<BR>
Instellarms was founded in 626 when Arbellatra was<BR>
Regent, not Empress. This may explain why Instellarms <BR>
has no Imperial family ownership although I am unclear<BR>
why Arbellatra as regent did not demand a percentage<BR>
of the company for whomever she was holding the Regency<BR>
for (i.e. herself). Another option is that the<BR>
Imperial family has sold off their interest in Instellarms.<BR>
<BR>
> That they would not recieve special treatment is<BR>
> illogical; a priveledged class tends to protect the whole of their<BR>
> priveleged class, as they are seen as targets by all the less priveledged<BR>
> classes.<BR>
<BR>
>  And the wealthy, while powerful, are NOT the major shareholders of<BR>
> the Megacorps, unless they happen to be Nobility as well.<BR>
<BR>
How do you know? If you take a look in the library data [CT<BR>
Sup 8 p 40-43] you will clearly see that the percentage<BR>
of the companies owned by "Noble families" is quite variable<BR>
and is usually low.<BR>
<BR>
Company		Noble%	Family%	OtherCorp	Private	<BR>
<BR>
Delgado		27		47		 0		21		<BR>
General Prod	35		 0		26 [6]	12<BR>
GSbAG			44          0 [1]	13		 4<BR>
Hortalez		 0		74		15		 0<BR>
Instellarms	 8		32 [2]	52		 0<BR>
<BR>
Ling Std		 8		 0		57		 0		<BR>
Makhidkarun	28		 0		28		14<BR>
Naasirka		13 [4]	 0 		25		11<BR>
SuSAG			 0		52		32.5		 7	<BR>
Sharushid		 0		 0		41		10<BR>
Sternmetal	18		 0		48 [6]	10		<BR>
Tukera		 0		29		 9		31<BR>
Zirunkarish	12		 0		 7		 9<BR>
	<BR>
Company		Imperial	Trusts	"Other"	<BR>
<BR>
Delgado		 5		 0		 0<BR>
General Prod	 5		 0		10 						<BR>
GSbAG			 4		 0		16	<BR>
Hortalez		 5		 0		 6<BR>
Instellarms	 0 [3]	 0		 6<BR>
Ling Std		 8		 0		27<BR>
Makhidkarun	 5		25		 0				 <BR>
Naasirka		 4		24		 0		<BR>
SuSAG			 2.5		 0		 6<BR>
Sharushid		 3		46 [5]	 0<BR>
Sternmetal	 2		 0		 0<BR>
Tukera		 3		28		 0<BR>
Zirunkarish	18		17 [5]	 0	<BR>
<BR>
[1] included in noble holdings<BR>
[2] holdings of Murdoch Holdings LIC 	<BR>
[3] Instellarms is not listed as having any Imperial household ownership.<BR>
[4] Holdings of the Igsiirdi family who may or may not be <BR>
Noble, I am assuming they are Noble<BR>
[5] Shared of the Sharushid trust whose ownership is unclear.<BR>
[6] Including Antares Holdings LIC whose ownership is unclear.<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimers: All megacorp ownership is listed as GDW 	<BR>
listed it. There is presumably some crossover between<BR>
"Nobles" "Private" "Corporate Trusts" and "Other"<BR>
ownership's. All mega corps are not the same size. The <BR>
fact that some mega corps own pieces of other mega corps <BR>
makes data analysis more difficult. All these figures<BR>
are quite questionable without knowledge of the relative<BR>
sizes of the mega corps.<BR>
<BR>
Mean "Noble families" ownership is under 15%.<BR>
<BR>
Mean "founding families" ownership is 18%<BR>
<BR>
Mean other corporation  (of all sizes) ownership is 27%+<BR>
<BR>
Mean private ownership is almost 10% <BR>
<BR>
Mean Imperial family ownership is almost 5%.<BR>
<BR>
Mean trust ownership is about 11%<BR>
<BR>
Mean "other" ownership is about 5.5%<BR>
<BR>
> Since the<BR>
> Megacorps sole desire is to maintain the markets,<BR>
<BR>
How do you know this?<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't the Rebellion era reformation of the Vilani<BR>
Empire by the Vilani mega corps suggest that they,<BR>
at least, may have had social goals as well as<BR>
economic goals - indeed to a proper Vilani their<BR>
should be a strong overlap between economic and <BR>
social goals.<BR>
<BR>
> This leads to one conclusion, (no offense, but I doubt YOU, Peter, could<BR>
> see it), which may be troublesome: The imperium exists soley for the<BR>
> propagation of the Imperium,<BR>
<BR>
You think _I_ would be incapabale of concluding or would be<BR>
troubled by the notion that a state, much less a ficticious <BR>
state, exists predominantly or exclusively for its own<BR>
benefit?<BR>
<BR>
I know you know me better than that.<BR>
<BR>
> and in order to remain in power must have<BR>
> means of drawing persons into its service. These means, in canon, are pay,<BR>
> senses of duty, loyalty, and the potential for becoming nobility.<BR>
<BR>
I concur but would add fear, economic self interest, and<BR>
patriotism (which is not quite the same thing as duty).<BR>
<BR>
I would also note that the potential for being and becming <BR>
nobility is probably exagerated by the charecter generation <BR>
systems. I do not believe that 1/18th of the Imperial <BR>
population are Knights while a further 1/36 are Barons.<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest useing TNE's 2d6-1 for SOC so as to eliminate<BR>
the possibility of PC's beginning at SOC 12 and to halve<BR>
the number of SOC 11 beginning charecters.<BR>
<BR>
> The OTU<BR>
> shows us an NON-CAPITALIST imperium: see also the canonical rates of pay<BR>
> for transport and shipping. They are clearly a semi-managed economy;<BR>
> otherwise subsidies wouldn't exist.<BR>
<BR>
I would, and have, describe them as merchantilist.<BR>
<BR>
> What's really amazing is that, for all our differences, Peter is nagging me<BR>
> to run Traveller again, and soon.... (It's been two years, now.)<BR>
<BR>
Actually I am only nagging you to run a non-fantasy<BR>
game, I merely suggested Traveller as a possibility.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 12:53:03 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimer - I am **not** a lawyer, but I **am** a data administrator<BR>
and an author, so I am well aware of the appropriate current and<BR>
impending laws.<BR>
<BR>
There are a number of problems with the SJG rights as claimed in this<BR>
thread.<BR>
<BR>
1. Terms of handling of copyright issues must be EXPLICITY agreed by<BR>
contributors in order to be determined by the rules IMPLICITLY assumed<BR>
by the publishers. Failing explicit agreements, copyright is<BR>
determined by the regulations in force in the legislative state<BR>
(usually a nation) where the copyright material is PRODUCED (ie.<BR>
written). [Berne Agreement].<BR>
<BR>
2. Designation of copyright, where required, is determined by the<BR>
requirements of the legislative state in which the copyright material<BR>
is produced. [also Berne Agreement].<BR>
<BR>
These two issues do indeed leave SJG open to legal action if their<BR>
handling of the issue is as claimed, since no explicit agreement is<BR>
required (they assume IMPLICIT agreement of the contract by<BR>
contributors). This has shedloads of legal precedent, mainly between<BR>
UK authors and US paperback (or magazine) publishers, and is one of<BR>
the reasons the US eventually signed the Berne Agreement on Copyright<BR>
(how copyright issues between countries is handled), even though they<BR>
are not signatories of the Geneva agreement for copyright itself (how<BR>
copyright is designated and managed). Secondly, designation of<BR>
copyright is determined by the nation of origin, not of publication,<BR>
and most nations do not require explicit copyright identification,<BR>
although they do ADVISE it if the document is to be circulated outside<BR>
the nation of origin. In almost all cases, this notification of<BR>
copyright requires the following items (not those required by US law).<BR>
[Geneva Agreement].<BR>
<BR>
(a). The word 'copyright'.<BR>
(b). Optionally, a copyright symbol or a letter 'c' in parentheses<BR>
(round brackets). Note that this is **not** required.<BR>
(c). The name to which copyright is assigned. Note that this need not<BR>
be the legal name of the person producing the document concerned, or<BR>
to whom copyright is assigned. In other words, it can be a<BR>
nom-de-plume.<BR>
(d). The year in which the work was produced.<BR>
<BR>
Having met these requirements, the work is then fully copyright<BR>
protected for the life of the **writer** (even if copyright is<BR>
assigned to someone else). In the UK, a further period after death is<BR>
also protected, for example.<BR>
<BR>
Back to the main points.<BR>
<BR>
3. It is not demonstrably necassary for SJG to possess the personal<BR>
information (ie. the name) of the copyright holder unless they are<BR>
prepared to designate that copyright on that material. Nor have they<BR>
demonstrated that they will appropriately protect and maintain that<BR>
data.<BR>
<BR>
4. SJG have not demonstrated willingness to abide by data protection<BR>
regulations in force outside the US and therefore it is currently<BR>
questionable whether it is permitted to provide personal copyright<BR>
information on submitted material that does not belong to you<BR>
personally, if submitted within the UK. In other words, if your mate<BR>
tells you something, there is a possibility that you should NOT TELL<BR>
SJG his/her name to claim copyright. After March 1st, it will be<BR>
**illegal** to do so (pending changes in the US data protection<BR>
regulations), from anywhere within the EU.<BR>
<BR>
In a nutshell, SJG are attempting to foist national (US state)<BR>
agreements on international documents and publication. While this may<BR>
be permissible **within** the US, it is **not** outside the US - it<BR>
breaks a number of international agreements, primarily the Berne<BR>
Agreement on Copyright and the EU Data Protection Commission<BR>
Regulations about to be enacted into EU national laws (already in<BR>
partial force in the UK, France, Germany and Spain). To add insult to<BR>
injury, they are also attempting to enforce implicit acceptance of US<BR>
laws by international contributors, which is explicilty forbidden by<BR>
international agreements to which the US is already a signatory. This<BR>
latter issue is one that has serious implications for US / EU trade<BR>
and commerce agreements and is currently being discussed at the<BR>
highest levels of US and EU government in an attempt to resolve the<BR>
problem, but at present looks likely to cause international isolation<BR>
of the US from international commerce with the EU and with other<BR>
states that accept commerce from the EU - Japan, for example, has<BR>
already agreed to accept EU requirements and will be enacting its own<BR>
regulations in the near future.<BR>
<BR>
I did say some time ago on this thread, that international<BR>
contributors really should just ignore the copyright issue until<BR>
governments resolve it - and I still think that's the case. Obviously,<BR>
though, there are worries about doing that and the only alternative I<BR>
can see is a non-US boycott of contributions to the SJG JTAS - which I<BR>
think will be a shame. Given the high level that this issue is being<BR>
dealt with, lawyers would have a field day trying to deal with it and<BR>
we should all avoid that kind of expense, so I really see no other<BR>
solution than one of these two.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steve<BR>
> Daniels<BR>
> Sent: 13 February 2000 07:16<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
><BR>
> Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > And what would their reaction be if you added a "the bits<BR>
> I wrote are<BR>
> > my copyright" line to your sig?<BR>
><BR>
> A good question but not a really difficult one.<BR>
><BR>
> Section G reads:<BR>
> "Any posting not carrying an explicit copyright notice is<BR>
> also assumed<BR>
> to be a contribution to Steve Jackson Games, for any use the company<BR>
> sees fit, including later publication in whole or in part<BR>
> under the SJ<BR>
> Games copyright.<BR>
><BR>
> Your statement is explicit notice (its written) amd claims<BR>
> copyright.<BR>
> So, by the terms of the _contract_, that should suffice.<BR>
> In the absence<BR>
> of the contract, notice isn't necessary so the question is moot.<BR>
><BR>
> However, were the notice relevant, say if we went backward in time<BR>
> 15+ years or so, that would be ineffective because it is not in the<BR>
> proper form.<BR>
><BR>
> What does proper notice require?<BR>
><BR>
> Three Things:<BR>
><BR>
> 1) "Copyright", "Copr.", or the C-in-a-Circle symbol. (only one)<BR>
> 2) The year of first publication<BR>
> 3) Name, abbreviation or known alternative designation of<BR>
> the author/owner.<BR>
><BR>
> It must be affixed in a manner to give reasonable notice of<BR>
> the claim of<BR>
> copyright.<BR>
><BR>
> Example:  "Copr. 2000 Bloo"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:05:26 -0600<BR>
From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Military-Government mottos<BR>
<BR>
Mike Linsenmayer wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Has any anyone thought of what the mottos of various units or orginizations<BR>
> in the Imperium or the Solomani empire might be<BR>
> <BR>
> Solomani: "If you aint Human you be fecal matter"<BR>
<BR>
Cower before our awesome strength;<BR>
Worship at our near-C rocks;<BR>
Learn from the scientific genius of the Virus;<BR>
We are the Female Ihatei in Comfortable Shoes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:15:12 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Imperial Law  and Jurisdiction<BR>
<BR>
On the imperial law question where would the jurisdiction lie if a crime was<BR>
committed on a vessel registered in say the Aslan Hierate, Solomani<BR>
Confederation etc but which was in imperial space, whether jump or normal.<BR>
<BR>
What about if the ship was in imperial space when the crime was committed<BR>
but in another states territory when it re-entered normal space, which could<BR>
be a third state as well.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO this scenario is likely to have occurred so there should be procedures<BR>
to deal with it. Any ideas.<BR>
<BR>
After the Solomani rim war did the imperium still claim the Solomani<BR>
Confederation as part of its territory. If so would the imperium ever have<BR>
tried to enforce jurisdiction on Solomani vessels crossing the border, and<BR>
if so given the touch relations, would the Solomani have responded with<BR>
extra customs inspections, more regulations against imperial registered<BR>
vessels operating in their space?<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:15:13 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jim & Peta<BR>
> Lawrie<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, 13 February 2000 9:33 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >> The New Zealand Air Force's is "Per ardua ad astra"<BR>
> >> <<<<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> It is also the Aussies (RAAF). Bugger it ... stop stealing our<BR>
> >> bloody mottos!<BR>
> >> :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Actually, I believe it is also the British airforce motto (RAF), which is<BR>
> >where we stole it from. We wouldn't steal anything from an<BR>
> Aussie, wouldn't<BR>
> >know where it had been.<BR>
> ><grin><BR>
> >Frankie<BR>
><BR>
>     Do you Kiwi's have an airforce? Ha! And sheep might fly!<BR>
>     Jim<BR>
><BR>
Well actually we Aussies passed on some nice Skyhawks to them, only had the<BR>
one owner, a little old lady who use to fly down to the shops and back.<BR>
<BR>
By the way anyone for a Collins class rockband er sub, we will have six,<BR>
please someone make an offer.<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:14:15 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics) Vearing OT<BR>
<BR>
DaveShayne wrote:<BR>
>As I understand the replicator it's a special purpose transporter.<BR>
>If the technology is capable of taking apart and then reasembling<BR>
>a human being (An incredibly complex mixture of incredibly<BR>
>complex substances) Then it can do damn near everything.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, it's a matter of resolution. A transporter has "quantum resolution",<BR>
which is necessary for transporting a living being and getting a living<BR>
being back afterwards. A replicator has "molecular resolution", which<BR>
is much, much coarser...sufficient for simple compounds, but once<BR>
you start approaching the complexity of living things - say, by making<BR>
once-living things like a porterhouse steak - the resemblance to the<BR>
real thing starts to break down. Thus a conniseur will eat a replicated<BR>
meal with the same enthusiasm he'd use for a current-day<BR>
nuke-&-serve dinner.<BR>
<BR>
No, this doesn't explain why you don't just put the guts of a transporter<BR>
inside your replicator rig, nor does it explain why a replicator can<BR>
copy things but a transporter (usually, but certainly not always) can't. I'm <BR>
afraid I've used up my stock of Trekkie technobabble on the subject. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1916<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1917<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
Re: Terraforming<BR>
re: Imperial Law<BR>
RE: TL of troops<BR>
RE: Terraforming<BR>
RE: TL of Troops<BR>
MT GM's Aid software<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1906<BR>
Re: Robots / Helper bots<BR>
RE: Terraforming<BR>
RE: Psionic variant<BR>
Re: Robot Economics<BR>
RE: robot economics<BR>
Re: Robots<BR>
Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
RE: robot economics<BR>
Re: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:19:16 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
>Oh, please do! Lessee, we currently have an Anarcho-capitalist<BR>
>Quasi-Libertarian who doesn't belive in the dynamics of Groups vs the<BR>
>Dynamics of Individuals, except as a plot element in literature GURPS fan<BR>
>(Peter), a Quasi-royalist Green semi-humanist who doesn't belive rights of<BR>
>individuals superceed the rights of the masses and has come to dislike<BR>
>GURPS and especially GT (Myself), and I'm not sure about Walt Smith...<BR>
<BR>
'Tis not my politics which are of import here...for this is not about my<BR>
dreams of social change, this is about something far more important:<BR>
the OTU!!  <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
Hmmm...I'm actually something of an anarcho-capitalist libertarian<BR>
myself. Put in enough of a personal responsibility ethic, and it<BR>
*could* work, you know...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:24:36 -0600<BR>
From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
<BR>
I bet you didn't know the Vilani are already among us...<BR>
<BR>
http://folklora.lv/kopas/vilonisi/en.shtml<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:37:07 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester writes:<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>>    A thermocline is a zone of large temperature change over a<BR>
>>    short distance, usually between zones with relatively<BR>
>>    homogenous temperatures.  They are found in temperate lakes<BR>
>>    during the summer and winter, but I have never heard of one<BR>
>>    in the atmosphere.  Can someone help us out here? >><BR>
>You _have_heard of one before, just not by that name. Think 'warm<BR>
front' and 'cold front'.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	<slaps forehead> D'uh.  Thanks for straightening me out.<BR>
	What I should have said was that I don't know of any stable,<BR>
	global thermocline between low and high altitude air masses.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:26:59 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><snip analysis of Megacorp Stock Ownership><BR>
<BR>
Nice data chunk there, Peter. I agree that it's tough to get a good relative <BR>
analysis, as we don't know how big the Megacorps are relative to each <BR>
other...a Megacorp with very odd-looking data could also be the smallest,<BR>
or vice versa.<BR>
<BR>
Still, you show a mean 55% ownership of Megacorp stock to be <BR>
publicly owned by the power blocks William was talking about - <BR>
Nobles, Founders, the Imperial Family, and other Megacorps.<BR>
Add to that what parts of "private", "trust" and "other" ownership<BR>
is actually controlled by these power blocks, then subtract what<BR>
the power blocks own that is actually controlled by loose cannons,<BR>
rebels against the power structure from within and that sort.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:42:28 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
At 06:21 AM 2/14/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:56:06 +1300<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>Subject: RE: TL of troops<BR>
><BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > Consider the case of a nice fast jet fighter like the Air Force just<BR>
>> > *loves*. Put it up against a biplane. Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
>> > guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
>> > interesting because the *top* speed of the biplane is below the *stall*<BR>
>> > speed for the jet. And the biplane can turn a lot sharper.<BR>
>><BR>
>> An interesting comment. I would guess that the radar cross section of the<BR>
>> F-22 must be about the RCS of a biplane, since the biplane has a<BR>
>> huge chunk of metal sitting around unshielded (the engine), while the F-22<BR>
>is > fairly stealthy.<BR>
><BR>
>> So I would guess that any missile which can lock onto<BR>
>> an F-22 can also take out a biplane.<BR>
><BR>
>The problem is that even if it does lock, which is not guaranteed,<BR>
>it probably won't go off unless it actually hits the engine.<BR>
<BR>
Jane's Fighter Combat in the Jet Age (Dave Isby, 1997) devotes two pages to<BR>
analyzing jet fighter vs. biplane combats, from the earliest such engagements<BR>
(USAF jets vs. PO-2 utility aircraft modified as scouts/bombers) on.<BR>
<BR>
The conclusion is that the biplane has a good chance of eluding a jet if in<BR>
rough and mountainous terrain, but is dead in clear terrain.<BR>
<BR>
Isby says that modern missiles (all-aspect seeker heads, AMRAAM) will lock<BR>
onto <BR>
a biplane-type target, but that in a skilled pilot over (say) mountain or<BR>
hilly forests, the biplane will be very hard to take out.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, arming the biplane with missiles is probably a no-starter.<BR>
It's too fragile to carry any sensor big enough to engage -- the jet will<BR>
not bother<BR>
to dogfight or fly by, it will detect from 20-50 km fire, and seperate<BR>
vertically before even coming in sensor range. Actually, the jet's biggest<BR>
risk<BR>
is probably accidentally colliding with the biplane (that actually happened<BR>
once in Korea...)<BR>
<BR>
So how do you fight a biplane opponent with TL7+ US forces? Answer:  you<BR>
don't. It's not really an air threat, as such. You can in the army or the<BR>
marines. Modern attack helicopters will chop the thing to pieces in no<BR>
time, as will<BR>
a harrier jump jet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:53:33 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston writes:<BR>
>These bits, I actually know about - the glory of a university<BR>
>education <grin>!<BR>
>Bacteria, fungi and algae are simple beasties and suffer at<BR>
>the hands of geography as well as ecology. Poor little things<BR>
>really can't spread that well at all.<BR>
<BR>
	Algae and fungi are, of course, far more complex in<BR>
	structure than bacteria, but they are generally not<BR>
	terribly motile organisms in human terms.  The trick is,<BR>
	they don't have to be very motile to be mobile: simply<BR>
	reproducing like mad and floating around does a pretty<BR>
	good job.<BR>
<BR>
>You find Pseudomonads in the soil everywhere it is healthy<BR>
>enough to support them but it isn't the same bacterium<BR>
>everywhere by any means. They mutate too fast, get split up by<BR>
>distance and eaten by others, even where they grow well.<BR>
<BR>
	Whether they mutate or not does not influence how much<BR>
	they spread (unless the mutation directly affects<BR>
	something like density or behaviour).  Even if it does,<BR>
	all the cells that did't mutate will continue to spread<BR>
	unabated.<BR>
<BR>
>Stick bugs in the ocean and they can only follow the currents -<BR>
>by the time they travel a few miles you have lots of little<BR>
>colonies, most of which get eaten.<BR>
<BR>
	By what?  If there are no microorganisms, anything that<BR>
	must eat them will have starved before you get there.  If<BR>
	there are already microorganisms, then you don't have to<BR>
	worry about getting them to spread.  Even then, you<BR>
	probably could get them to spread, depending on issues of<BR>
	predation, competition, etc.<BR>
<BR>
>The general opinion these days is that chloroplasts (the things<BR>
>that make green plants green) are trapped microorganisms in a<BR>
>damn close symbiosis.<BR>
<BR>
	It is pretty much accepted that chloroplasts and<BR>
	mitochondria started out as "endosymbionts," though I'm<BR>
	not sure that they can still be considered individual<BR>
	organisms now.<BR>
<BR>
>It only works well if the plants provide benefits for each<BR>
>other - nitrogen fixers in the soil, good respiration /<BR>
>transpiration / photosynthesis balance and so on. Algae cope<BR>
>without this sort of thing quite well, so as introduced<BR>
>organisms spread like runny jam. Hence the algal blooms we are<BR>
>seeing in the oceans these days.<BR>
<BR>
	Yup, that's what I'm trying to say.<BR>
<BR>
>Ecology has a golden rule, that must apply to terraforming in<BR>
>spades - keep it as simple as possible.<BR>
<BR>
	As an ecologist, I must admit that I have never heard of<BR>
	this "golden rule."  Simplicity does certainly have it's<BR>
	advantages, but there are pluses to complexity as well.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:57:44 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TL of Troops<BR>
<BR>
Most of the scenarios that have low-TL troops win against higher TL/more<BR>
sophisiticated forces "work" because they make the assumption that the higher<BR>
TL force has superior "attack" power but roughly equal "defense." In other<BR>
words they assume the force is like the 1950s US army: guys with tons of<BR>
fire power, but walking around in steel helmets and no body armor; aircraft<BR>
that are Mach 2 with nuclear bombs, but which a machine gun bullet can take<BR>
down, and so on; tanks that are basically WWII tanks with better guns but<BR>
still vulnerable<BR>
to a molotov cocktail from a sneaky pete guerilla, or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
However, if the higher TL force puts a greater value on keeping its folks<BR>
alive (as the volunteer US army, et al. does) it develops tech designed for<BR>
this purpose. This tends to drastically reduce the advantage of the lower<BR>
TL force.<BR>
<BR>
If the explorers on a low TL world start dropping mysteriously, my<BR>
exploration team might not think "native with blow gun" but "pseduo insects<BR>
or bio threat."<BR>
On go the suits (if you didn't already) of sealed combat armor. *bounce*. <BR>
<BR>
The real use of all that individual body armor, of course, is not to<BR>
protect the higher TL force from low-tech threats, but to provide<BR>
survivability against<BR>
wide-area munitions such as fragmentation artillery, ICM cluster bomb rounds,<BR>
chemical weapons, etc. Any primitive native type force will die fast if the<BR>
high tech boys actually deploy these things.  Ewoks vs. Imperial Storm<BR>
Troopers<BR>
are all nice and good, but if the Imperials called for nerve gas or air<BR>
burst artillery -- secure in the notion that their own body armor would<BR>
protect --<BR>
there would be a special on fur rugs offered for the next couple of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, you can design scenarios that negate this as well ("the aliens<BR>
have hard spiny shells, and our gasses don't affect their biochemistry, an<BR>
dthey don't show up on infrared, sarge!") which is rather amusing, or set<BR>
things up<BR>
so you don't want to flatten the area (resources, settlers, ancient ruins).<BR>
<BR>
so many rugs.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:59:49 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: MT GM's Aid software<BR>
<BR>
For those of you receiving the zip file from me, all you need<BR>
to do to run the software is to unzip it to a subdirectory of<BR>
your choice and either build your own shortcut to the executable<BR>
or modify the one provided.<BR>
<BR>
The creator of this wonderful application is none other than the<BR>
TML's own Dennis G. Landsem. I haven't seen a post from Dennis<BR>
for a *long* time but his email address is in the MSWrite<BR>
file included in the zip archive. Assuming it's still accurate,<BR>
that is.<BR>
<BR>
All files necessary to run the appl. are included in the zip but<BR>
if any of you running it have problems with a file, let me know.<BR>
I can resend the individual file from home or work now. Please<BR>
be aware that the application does NOT affect your Windows<BR>
registry in any way (as near as I can figure). Dennis really<BR>
did a bang-up job on this one.<BR>
<BR>
One thing I forgot to mention is the software can also apply<BR>
Hard Times changes to sector data files included with the appl.<BR>
Where you go from there is up to you (I don't run Hard Times).<BR>
<BR>
The Write file has all the instructions you should need on how<BR>
to use it. Please read the entire file before asking any questions.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy!<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:17:47 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1906<BR>
<BR>
Sorry if this is a repeat but I dont think I saw it come up yet<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:46:31 -0500<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>But that's the whole point of the thing. Pursuits should be personally<BR>
>satisfying not economically based. If there is enough for all to live in<BR>
>luxury why should anyone want to amass a great horde of wealth that they<BR>
can<BR>
>never spend instead of doing things that they find interesting and amusing?<BR>
<BR>
My point was that a society of that nature doesn't have economics as we<BR>
know it so all pursuits would be pursuits of avocation instead of pursuits<BR>
of economic necesity.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Like for instance controlling the destiny of all the beings that they come<BR>
>in contact with and determining who lives and who dies. Ooops there goes<BR>
>another paradise the victim of human nature.<BR>
<BR>
Not really. For every power mad megalomaniac there are probably a largish<BR>
number of people who's primary life thrill is in knocking power mad<BR>
megalomaniacs down a notch or twenty. And Utopia is saved once again.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vaca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
  - Bart Caeser<BR>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:05:56 -0600<BR>
From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots / Helper bots<BR>
<BR>
The Space Shuttle uses little helper bots to aid crew:<BR>
these things float around in zero-g and propel themselves<BR>
with microbursts of air.  They have a camera and a little<BR>
speaker, I think, and can be remotely accessed -- from the<BR>
ground, I'm sure.<BR>
<BR>
Zoom out to the Traveller Universe.  Has someone designed<BR>
a small antigrav robot which is designed to aid ship's<BR>
crew with their normal duties?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:12:34 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Terraforming<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant writes:<BR>
>One thing hasn't been mentioned, though the points on<BR>
>erosion are very valid: heat.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>So, for example, in Total Recall, Arnie and his<BR>
>girlfriend are on the surface of Mars, suffocating,<BR>
>when the atmosphere machine kicks in, and within<BR>
>thirty seconds they have a breathable atmosphere, at<BR>
>least in the immediate area. My question there was,<BR>
>why didn't Arnie and his girl boil? The ground melt?<BR>
<BR>
	It takes a little more heat to do the latter than the<BR>
	former :)<BR>
<BR>
>The simplest atmosphere machine (it seemed this is<BR>
>what the Total Recall Mars machine was) would be just<BR>
>big hunks of frozen oxygen (to breathe) and nitrogen<BR>
>(since you can't breathe pure oxygen, it's toxic in<BR>
>high doses) Melt them, and voila! breathable<BR>
>atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
	That may be the simplest explanation, but there are<BR>
	others, such as electrolysing H2O, or various chemical<BR>
	reactions.  Who knows how those pesky Martians thought.<BR>
<BR>
>Without going into too much maths (poorly remembered<BR>
>by me), just think of the energy needed to change a<BR>
>litre of ice to a litre of steam. If you think that<BR>
>energy isn't a lot, heat-wise, stick you hand on the<BR>
>stove enxt time you're cooking.<BR>
<BR>
	That is water ice in a standard atmosphere, it takes<BR>
	much less heat to boil water in a near-vacuum, and<BR>
	a whole lot less to boil oxygen or nitrogen.  Arnie<BR>
	and his friend might freeze!<BR>
<BR>
>So this is a reaosn you _want_ the terraforming to<BR>
>take hundreds of years. You don't want to melt the<BR>
>planet!<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Even if you created a hydrogen-oxygen atmosphere and<BR>
	burned it, I doubt that it would have much impact on<BR>
	the state of the planet's rock.  The local wildlife might<BR>
	not be too happy, though.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:16:13 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
Michael Maley writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Furthermore take that futher, and have a sport called psinulls<BR>
>(maybe 1-5% of the deadhead population) that not only are<BR>
>incapable of psi activity but actively dampen psi powers like a<BR>
>psionic black hole.  They had a rating like the psionic rating<BR>
>which gave the radius of effect (1m radius from the psinull per<BR>
>level)of psionic dampening.  It would take a psi with a power<BR>
>rating higher than the psinull to use their psi abilities.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I LIKE it <swipe><BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:22:08 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Robot Economics<BR>
<BR>
DaveShayne writes:<BR>
>I am crediting the Megacorps with the ability to think<BR>
>long term. Considering that - as I didn't make clear - the<BR>
>megacorp conspiracy I describe is an attempt to hold onto<BR>
>relative power by deliberately suppressing technology that<BR>
>would result in a cornucopia of plenty for all I wouldn't credit<BR>
>them with wisdom. And certainly not with goodwill.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	With the advent of anagathics, I can believe that the<BR>
	megacorps might think more long-term than their modern<BR>
	analogs seem to.  So, I do not disagree, but I could<BR>
	also see the necessity of having sufficient wisdom to<BR>
	stick to such policies.  My choice of the term "goodwill"<BR>
	was misleading, I meant that individual megacorps would<BR>
	need to all stick together.  One that cheated might take<BR>
	the others, build an unstoppable robot navy, and rule<BR>
	the universe (insert maniacal laughter here).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:25:42 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: robot economics<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
>Grav propelled robots have a Dex of F. This is as dexterous<BR>
>as a human can get.<BR>
<BR>
	IMTU, such dex is unavailable for robots, with the possible<BR>
	exception of very expensive high-TL models.<BR>
<BR>
>>   Well, I might be tempted if I can get a robot that does an<BR>
>>   adequite job (just how dexterous does a steward have to be?)<BR>
>A steward has to be dexterous enough not to spill drinks on<BR>
>drunk passengers who try and grab the drinks the steward is<BR>
>bringing them out of their hands before the steward can hand<BR>
>it to them. :)<BR>
<BR>
	We will just have to institute a required Dex for stewarts<BR>
	:)<BR>
	On the other hand, if Str is high enough, and you have one<BR>
	or two extra hands, you can just hold onto the drinks.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:28:35 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Robots<BR>
<BR>
Joseph Kimball writes:<BR>
This sounds like the way to do it.  This way you might well have<BR>
>dumb robots working on assembly lines (like now), and for the<BR>
>masses, you might have a simple one to do vacuuming.  Those who<BR>
>are well off might be able to afford a significantly better<BR>
>robot to do all the cleaning ("I'm sorry sir, but my programming<BR>
>does not allow me to clean windows.").  To get a robot with<BR>
>enough skill to replace a sentient at a skilled decision making<BR>
>job like pilot or engineer would be potentially as much as a<BR>
>small starship all by itself. <BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	This is exactly where I am going with this.  Another thing<BR>
	to bring up is that even the most expensive non-sophont<BR>
	pilot robot may be limited and inferior to a qualified<BR>
	human/vargr/etc. pilot.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:39:22 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
<BR>
Hi folks.  I've updated my near star spreadsheet to include figures given in<BR>
parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
To recap, the spreadsheet is in microsoft Excel 97 of stars within 150 light<BR>
years.  The stars are now given in equatorial XYZ coordinates in light<BR>
years, equatorial XYZ coordiantes in parsecs, galactic XYZ in light years,<BR>
and galactic XYZ in parsecs.  All of the underlying equations are still<BR>
present so you can see how everything was derived.  Also included are<BR>
various notes and other catalog names for the stars.<BR>
<BR>
Also available are the same data in a tab delimited text file and the same<BR>
data in a comma delimited .csv file.<BR>
I regret however, that the underlying equations are not available in these<BR>
formats.  All three files are zipped into the megastar file at<BR>
<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~ehenry/dskies.htm<BR>
<BR>
If somebody needs something customized i can do that but i do have a day<BR>
job.  Which i'm currently ignoring.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hm...using corrected values, I ran some path computations for a set of<BR>
>stars reachable by 'jumps' of 7.7 light-years (per 2300AD).  Interestingly<BR>
>enough, it appears that there are only 966 stars which can be reached in<BR>
>this way (this may reflect missing data in hipparcos, some dim red stars<BR>
>might provide bridges, most of the cutoff points are at 60-80 lightyears).<BR>
>Total number of plausibly habitable stars (main sequence, solid KGF) is<BR>
>184 (close binaries not stripped).  Total star systems is 7425<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:38:20 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: robot economics<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
>>Either the stuff is not available until<BR>
>>later tech levels or it should cost 10 or 100 times more.<BR>
>>If you treat Book 8 like the optional cyberwear gear in TNE,<BR>
>>there is no problem.<BR>
>Then how can you explain the Zhodani, who use lots of<BR>
>robots, despite having a slightly lower maximum TL<BR>
>than the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
	The Zhodani have weighed the various advantages and<BR>
	disadvantages of using robots for certain applications,<BR>
	and have determined that the disadvantages are worth<BR>
	putting up with under certain circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
>How can you explain the Hivers's who use lots of robots?<BR>
<BR>
	As with the Zhodani, plus the Hiver's propensity to stay<BR>
	out of the action and let someone (or something) else do<BR>
	the work.<BR>
<BR>
>How can you explain the K'Kree who use lots of <BR>
>Engineering robots despite having a significantly<BR>
>lower TL than the Imperium? [Oh sure the K'Kree<BR>
>pretty much have to use robots in tight spaces<BR>
>but still].<BR>
<BR>
	As above.  The K'Kree probably would benefit more than<BR>
	the Imperium from having small robots to get into corners,<BR>
	but humans don't like to (or cannot) fit into some parts<BR>
	of a starship.  Perhaps another concern for the K'Kree is<BR>
	doing jobs that require solitude.<BR>
<BR>
>I suppose that since the Zhodani use mostly dumb bots, <BR>
>Hivers are better/higher TL at robotics/computers, <BR>
>and the K'Kree have no real alternative and might also<BR>
>be using dumb bots it is not totally implausible.<BR>
<BR>
	At least, no more implausable than the rest of the OTU  :)<BR>
<BR>
>The Traveller universe is a big place. You can not<BR>
>rely on Imperium centric answers to problems.<BR>
<BR>
	True.<BR>
<BR>
>The way I would change book 8 (if I were feeling heretical)<BR>
<BR>
	Do it, you'll feel better  ;)<BR>
<BR>
>would be to multiply all software costs by 10x<BR>
>and require that program cost and size increase<BR>
>with the _square_ of the skill level. This would help push<BR>
>the costs of robots up and their average skill levels <BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	This sound exellent.  I use something similar for starship<BR>
	computer programs.  For example, my "Predict" software<BR>
	looks like this:<BR>
<BR>
		DM	Space<BR>
		+1	1<BR>
		+2	2<BR>
		+3	4<BR>
		+4	8<BR>
		+5	16<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:43:23 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
[Resending the table on ownership of MegaCorps because<BR>
it came out screwed up last time. What does it take to <BR>
get a simple WYSIWYG email program?]<BR>
<BR>
Ownership of Imperial Mega Corporations<BR>
[CT BK. 8 Library Data p. 40-43, apparently circa 1107]<BR>
<BR>
Company        Noble% Family% OtherCorp   Private <BR>
<BR>
Delgado         27   	47        0          21              <BR>
General Prod    35   	 0       26 [6]  	12<BR>
GSbAG           44    0 [1]   13            4<BR>
Hortalez         0  	74       15            0<BR>
Instellarms      8   	32 [2]   52            0<BR>
Ling Std         8    0       57            0              <BR>
Makhidkarun     28    0       28           14<BR>
Naasirka        13[4] 0       25           11<BR>
SuSAG            0   52       32.5          7      <BR>
Sharushid        0    0       41           10<BR>
Sternmetal      18    0       48 [6]       10              <BR>
Tukera           0   29        9           31<BR>
Zirunkarish     12    0        7            9<BR>
        <BR>
Company         Imperial        Trusts     "Other" <BR>
<BR>
Delgado          5               0               0<BR>
General Prod     5               0              10                         <BR>
                    <BR>
GSbAG            4               0              16      <BR>
Hortalez         5               0               6<BR>
Instellarms      0 [3]           0               6<BR>
Ling Std         8               0              27<BR>
Makhidkarun      5              25               0                         <BR>
     <BR>
Naasirka         4              24               0              <BR>
SuSAG            2.5             0               6<BR>
Sharushid        3              46 [5]           0<BR>
Sternmetal       2               0               0<BR>
Tukera           3              28               0<BR>
Zirunkarish     18              17 [5]           0      <BR>
<BR>
[1] included in noble holdings<BR>
[2] holdings of Murdoch Holdings LIC    <BR>
[3] Instellarms is not listed as having any Imperial household ownership.<BR>
[4] Holdings of the Igsiirdi family who may or may not be <BR>
Noble, I am assuming they are Noble<BR>
[5] Shared of the Sharushid trust whose ownership is unclear.<BR>
[6] Including Antares Holdings LIC whose ownership is unclear.<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimers: All megacorp ownership is listed as GDW    <BR>
listed it. There is presumably some crossover between<BR>
"Nobles" "Private" "Corporate Trusts" and "Other"<BR>
ownership's. All mega corps are not the same size. The <BR>
fact that some mega corps own pieces of other mega corps <BR>
makes data analysis more difficult. All these figures<BR>
are quite questionable without knowledge of the relative<BR>
sizes of the mega corps.<BR>
<BR>
Mean "Noble families" ownership is under 15%.<BR>
<BR>
Mean "founding families" ownership is 18%<BR>
<BR>
Mean other corporation  (of all sizes) ownership is 27%+<BR>
<BR>
Mean private ownership is almost 10% <BR>
<BR>
Mean Imperial family ownership is almost 5%.<BR>
<BR>
Mean trust ownership is about 11%<BR>
<BR>
Mean "other" ownership is about 5.5%<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:46:30 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/14/00 12:00:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> The key element in that crime is _knowledge_.  If I steal your teddy<BR>
>  bear (assuming it hasn't got your name or other non-removable indicia<BR>
>  of ownership on it)  and go sell it to a pawn shop, the pawn shop has<BR>
>  committed no crime even though they have received stolen goods.<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily. I know someone who unknowingly purchased stolen goods and <BR>
got busted. From then on he made all sellers sign a statement saying that the <BR>
goods were there's to sell.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1917<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1918</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1918<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: World Generation System Example on-line<BR>
RE: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: SF Comics<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
RE: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: THUDDD<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
RE: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Belter Alert!  RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Sandman in Traveller<BR>
Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
RE: OT: Help needed with HTML tables.<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Sandman in Traveller<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:53:46 -0600<BR>
From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: World Generation System Example on-line<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >         How many hulls, what size and what die-off on arrival in addition to<BR>
> > the above 50% loss?<BR>
> <BR>
> And how many ships will this rag tag fleet loose along the<BR>
> way as they are fleeing from the Cylon tyranny?<BR>
<BR>
I thought someone would appreciate the humor inherent in the system!<BR>
("Come and see the humor inherent in the system!  'Elp, 'elp, I'm<BR>
being amused!!").  Thanks Peter!<BR>
<BR>
And, really: good points, Michel.  For the ragtag fleet option,<BR>
maybe I'd distribute tonnage like so:  for each tonnage class,<BR>
roll 2d6 and consult the table to determine the number of each<BR>
tonnage class of ships.<BR>
<BR>
DM -1 if colony group had less than 100,000 people;<BR>
DM +1 if the colony group had more than 1,000,000 people.<BR>
<BR>
2-3:  The group consists of fifty 100-dton scouts,<BR>
two hundred used 400-dton fat traders, and a hundred 1000-dton<BR>
mothballed freighters, for a total tonnage of 185,000 and a <BR>
maximum accomodation of 1850 crew and 37,000 colonists in <BR>
emergency low berths.<BR>
<BR>
4-5:  The group consists of one hundred 100-dton scouts,<BR>
four-hundred used 400-dton fat traders, and one hundred<BR>
1000-dton mothballed freighters, for a total tonnage of 270,000<BR>
and a maximum accomodation of 2700 crew and 54,000 colonists<BR>
in emergency low berths.<BR>
<BR>
6-8: The group consists of one hundred 100-dton scouts,<BR>
two-hundred each of used 200-dton, 400-dton, and 600-dton<BR>
traders, and one hundred 1000-dton mothballed freighters,<BR>
for totals of 350,000 dtons, 3500 crew, and 70,000 colonists<BR>
in emergency low berths.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
9-10:  One hundred scouts, three-hundred each of the<BR>
traders, and one hundred freighters, for a total of<BR>
470,000 dtons, 4700 crew and 94,000 colonists in emergency<BR>
low berths.<BR>
<BR>
11-12: Two hundred scouts, five hundreds of each trader,<BR>
and two hundred freighters, for a total of 820,000 dtons,<BR>
8200 crew, and 164,000 colonists in emergency low berths.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'd expect most staterooms to be ripped out and replaced by<BR>
emergency low berths; therefore, upon arrival there would<BR>
be another percentage lost due to poor low-berth-survival rolls.<BR>
How many?  Another 1d6 x 10%?  Yeowtch...<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:27:57<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
At 09:21 PM 2/14/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Ha! And sheep might fly!<BR>
><BR>
>Several sheep were found stuck in the top of a tree in Otago, in such a<BR>
>manner that they had obviously landed in it, not climbed it.<BR>
<BR>
Cue Python routine.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:34:55<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SF Comics<BR>
<BR>
At 10:12 PM 2/13/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nah. "Tax Day" (Issue #1 of "The Gallimaufry").<BR>
><BR>
> I'm told that a compilation volume of The Gallimaufry is due shortly...<BR>
<BR>
My dream assignment for SJG would be to do GURPS: Buck Godot. I even wrote<BR>
up a racial template for PSmith and the Hoffmanites once.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:38:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
At 08:34 PM 2/13/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The main influences I drew from:<BR>
<BR>
>> The FFL <--------------------------------<BR>
>How come the "Fantasy Football League"? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
You'll have to ask General Lord Eneri Montana, Quarterback in Chief of the<BR>
49th Field Army.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:41:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
At 02:11 AM 2/14/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of me... I loved <BR>
>what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
<BR>
The SEALS were the wrong type of team. The Imperial Marines are *not*<BR>
subtle. They are not the sneaky type that the SEALS are. I did base the<BR>
Marine Commandos on the SEALS.<BR>
<BR>
The VC called any special warfare groups "devils with green faces", since<BR>
they were the only troops who regularly wore camouflage face paint.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:50:00<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
At 11:59 PM 2/13/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of me... I <BR>
>> loved what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
><BR>
> Uh, Why?<BR>
<BR>
Camouflage face paint wasn't a commonly used item in Vietnam. Its use was<BR>
mostly confined to groups that spent a lot of time sneaking around in<BR>
VC/NVA held areas. Groups like the SEALS, Army LRRPS/Rangers, Marine Force<BR>
Recon.. the *real* tough bastards.<BR>
<BR>
The VC learned that any American with a green face was a sure sign of<BR>
imminent whup-ass. So the nickname was applied to US SpecWar forces.<BR>
<BR>
One of my favorite stories to come out of Vietnam concerns a LRRP team that<BR>
comes across a large VC base. They watch for a while, the call in the Mike<BR>
Force. The VC are caught by surprise, and are either killed or forced to flee.<BR>
<BR>
As the US troops are sweeping the compound, an intelligence officer looks<BR>
at a blackboard, and breaks out laughing.<BR>
<BR>
It seems that the VC were receiving a block of instruction on the dangers<BR>
of American Long Range Reconnaissance Patrols...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:09:12 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
<BR>
> >Naw, that's "Meals Rejected by Everyone."  ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> MREs were first issued when the Ethiopian famine was big <BR>
> news, Bob Geldof<BR>
> guilting rocks stars into the record studio, etc. So we did <BR>
> call them Meal<BR>
> Rejected by Ethiopeans. When the crisis faded, it was changed <BR>
> to "Everyone".<BR>
<BR>
I learned it as 'Meals Regurgitated Entirely', but to mix two threads:<BR>
<BR>
'Meals Rejected by Bread Pudding.'<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:18:25 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
> Sorry, I just can't see the Marines chosing any slogan other than<BR>
> "Semper Fidelis." Not because the wee little jarheads can't learn any<BR>
> more latin, but because they're too damn stubborn to want to learn<BR>
> anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> Who said the Imperial Marines were decended from the US Marines? What<BR>
> if their main traditions stem from the French Foreign Legion (like in<BR>
> Pournelle's books)?<BR>
<BR>
Who said they had to be descended from Solomani military at all?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
 (who prefers Traveller to be non-Earth, non-US centered)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:12:58 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD<BR>
<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> "Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Was there anyone who wanted to submit a design for the<BR>
> > Modular Cutter design competition that didn't get one in<BR>
> > before the deadline?<BR>
><BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards regretfully informs the ISBA that we will be unable<BR>
> to submit a design for THUDDD 11.  Our design bureau was unwilling to<BR>
> compromise our quality standards to meet the cost constraints of the<BR>
> proposal.<BR>
><BR>
> On a brighter note for our stockholders, AuricTech Shipyards (circa<BR>
> M:1115) has secured an Imperial Navy contract for 12 commerce raiders.<BR>
> These twelve ships will be used as the benchmark for the upcoming THUDDD<BR>
> 12 design competition, to be posted for comment within the week.<BR>
><BR>
> (OOC: My plans are to post the AuricTech design at the beginning of the<BR>
> competition, as a standard for other design bureaux to meet or exceed.<BR>
> I will also post a design for a 20kt freightliner, as a benchmark target<BR>
> ship for the THUDDD 12 competition.)<BR>
><BR>
> (BTW, to which mailing list is ISBA-related traffic being posted these<BR>
> days?)<BR>
<BR>
I guess we might as well use the TML until such point as the<BR>
traffic gets unbearable for the TMLers who are not involved<BR>
or we get enough people who want to participate in<BR>
THUDDD, but don't have the time to wade through the TML<BR>
posts looking for THUDDD/ISBA stuff.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:35:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
At 06:18 PM 2/14/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Who said they had to be descended from Solomani military at all?<BR>
<BR>
Uh, I did?  The Imperial Marines draw their traditions from the RoM<BR>
Marines, which trace back to the Terran Confederation Marines. <BR>
<BR>
>/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
> (who prefers Traveller to be non-Earth, non-US centered)<BR>
<BR>
Odd thing for a Marine Sergeant-Instructor to say... (yes, you got in.)<BR>
<BR>
I did try to make the military, especially the Marines, different from the<BR>
American equivalents.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:55:01 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
<BR>
Damn, I posted the original bit about it and still haven't getten my<BR>
package yet :-( Maybe today...Tucson seems to be the remote a**-end of<BR>
UPS'es net.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Myers wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi all,<BR>
> <BR>
> Did anyone else buy into the offer at AS&S for 5 RPG supplements for $5?<BR>
> http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?section=1<BR>
> If so, what did you get? I received RPG supplements for Buck Rogers,<BR>
> Ravenloft, Dark Sun, AD&D and Dragonlance adventures. I'll be happy to<BR>
> sell/trade these if anyone received something I want. Contact me off-list.<BR>
> <BR>
> I also ordered 20 colored d6s for $3, half red and half blue. They are very<BR>
> nice. I'm going to use them for simultaneous sensor and combat rolls.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 14:08:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
>Damn, I posted the original bit about it and still haven't getten my<BR>
>package yet :-( Maybe today...Tucson seems to be the remote a**-end of<BR>
>UPS'es net.<BR>
<BR>
I ordered about a day later, and still haven't seen my<BR>
package - rpg stuff and lots of widdle-bitty Buck Rogers<BR>
space ships. I'm thinking of contacting them tonight.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:16:46 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
From: <Kagehira@aol.com><BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > The key element in that crime is _knowledge_.  If I steal your teddy<BR>
> >  bear (assuming it hasn't got your name or other non-removable indicia<BR>
> >  of ownership on it)  and go sell it to a pawn shop, the pawn shop has<BR>
> >  committed no crime even though they have received stolen goods.<BR>
><BR>
> Not necessarily. I know someone who unknowingly purchased stolen goods and<BR>
> got busted. From then on he made all sellers sign a statement saying that<BR>
the<BR>
> goods were there's to sell.<BR>
<BR>
Getting busted has nothing to do with criminality, even<BR>
convition often is unrelated to the question.  A good many<BR>
fine folks have be convicted of crimes for a simple lack of<BR>
effective defense.  These people are convicts, but not<BR>
actually criminals.<BR>
<BR>
Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.  A right may<BR>
not be infringed nor regulated by legal code.  Yet, every state<BR>
that I have checked on has a "law" requiring drivers to be<BR>
licenced.<BR>
<BR>
How do they get away with this?  The words used in law do<BR>
not always mean what they do in real life.  For example, in<BR>
most US jurisdictions, the word "driver" is defined legally as<BR>
someone who opperates a motor vehicle for profit.  So, if<BR>
you do not carry people or goods for profit, you are not a<BR>
driver (legally speaking).<BR>
<BR>
Other words that get twisted by legal definitions include<BR>
"shall" and "must," which have been defined as meaning<BR>
"may" by the US Supreme Court in order to keep legal<BR>
codes from being unconstitutional.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, in real life, a driver is the person who<BR>
controls a car, bus or truck reguardless of profit.  So, when<BR>
people read the legal code that says, "All drivers must be<BR>
licenced."  They naturally assume that if they want to use<BR>
thier private, non-commercial carriage, they need a licence<BR>
issued by the state.<BR>
<BR>
If they don't get the state's licence or allow it to laps and are<BR>
busted by the supposed "public servants" (such as police<BR>
 or hiway patrol officers), they can be convicted of violating<BR>
the law, simply because they don't know what thier rights are.<BR>
<BR>
Even most lawyers don't actually know what thier rights are<BR>
because they are part of the system and the system doesn't<BR>
thrive when the people know what thier rights are.<BR>
<BR>
Knowledge is Power.   The politicos who have converted our<BR>
beautiful republic into a "democtracy" do not want thier apple<BR>
cart upset.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
Disclaimer:  I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice.<BR>
I also do not advocate breaking any legal codes nor civil<BR>
disobedience in any form.  The above is provided by way of<BR>
illustration only.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:04:28 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Belter Alert!  RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
<BR>
FYI...<BR>
<BR>
At 10:33am Eastern Standard Time(US) today, the NEAR<BR>
spacecraft successfully achieved orbit around the asteroid<BR>
Eros. The first pics from orbit are located at the following<BR>
URL.<BR>
<BR>
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/near.html<BR>
<BR>
There's even an animation, using real photos, of the<BR>
asteroid's 5-day orbit.<BR>
<BR>
VERY cool for PC-based Traveller campaign props!<BR>
<BR>
Check it out.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:19:57 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:59 PM 2/13/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> What about the SEALS, and the SAS? They scare the p**s out of me... I<BR>
> >> loved what the VC called the SEALS; "the devils with the green faces"<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Uh, Why?<BR>
><BR>
> Camouflage face paint wasn't a commonly used item in Vietnam. Its use was<BR>
> mostly confined to groups that spent a lot of time sneaking around in<BR>
> VC/NVA held areas. Groups like the SEALS, Army LRRPS/Rangers, Marine Force<BR>
> Recon.. the *real* tough bastards.<BR>
<BR>
No the why was for scaring the Piss out of him.....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:41:58 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sandman in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
At 22:29 -0500 13/2/00, Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
>SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > 3) The serial killer's convention would fit right in with the TML<BR>
> > discussion recently - maybe at Efate?<BR>
>Damn that is what I thought we where having here...<BR>
<BR>
Nope, it's a cereal killer convention, with near-C rocks.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:44:00 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
At 22:29 -0500 13/2/00, "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net> wrote:<BR>
>Tasha Yar (TNG)<BR>
<BR>
<sigh><BR>
<BR>
Dom ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:53:52 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT: Help needed with HTML tables.<BR>
<BR>
At 23:58 -0500 13/2/00, RE: OT: Help needed with HTML tables. wrote:<BR>
>Mark Preston said:<BR>
> >Second; frames load slowly anyway (for 3 frames, you have to use 4<BR>
> >HTTP GET commands).<BR>
><BR>
>...But only for the first time, if you go with the rule I stated: only change<BR>
>one frame at a time.<BR>
<BR>
The BITS site uses two frames - a menu and a content page. After the <BR>
initial load, only the content page changes which makes the site <BR>
reasonably fast. Likewise, links to sub-pages for further information <BR>
are targeted to new browser windows so that the graphic intensive <BR>
menu and front pages aren't forced to reload. There is a method <BR>
behind the madness...<BR>
<BR>
There is also a NOFRAMES section which loads the index page for <BR>
people like Leonard who are using browsers like Lynx.<BR>
<BR>
Using some obscure code (especially IE specific is a sure way to <BR>
annoy people). There are other changes you end up making to <BR>
accomodate more obscure visitors - for example, the older version of <BR>
the AOL browser package made it near impossible to read the bottom of <BR>
the menu bar so I downsized the graphics.<BR>
<BR>
>I think I already said this, when I said:<BR>
> >>Natch, if you are using pictures, refer to them with _relative <BR>
>references_, so<BR>
> >>the browser will load the majority from cache rather than <BR>
>downloading the same<BR>
> >>pic for every new page.<BR>
><BR>
>However, you also have to have your browser set so that it doesn't <BR>
>refresh every<BR>
>picture every time it goes to a new page:<BR>
<BR>
ISTR that this is default on most browsers.<BR>
><BR>
>Let's face it, it is easy to do bad frames, and it is easy to do bad <BR>
>no-frames.<BR>
>I have seen a number of no-frames sites that do really dicky things[1], and<BR>
>frames sites which are totally dreadful[2]!<BR>
><BR>
>Ah well, I guess both approaches have their place.<BR>
<BR>
True,<BR>
<BR>
I decided to experiment with the forthcoming CORE site update - the <BR>
site is built around a table and uses minimal graphics, so is quite <BR>
fast...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:17:53 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
At 9:24 -0500 14/2/00,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > while the F-22 is fairly<BR>
> > stealthy. So I would guess that any missile which can lock onto an F-22 can<BR>
> > also take out a biplane.<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, but that's the whole *point* of being stealthy. You can't *get*<BR>
>a lock on an F-22. Not with radar anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Is that like 'you can't get a lock on an F117' or is it better than that ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:40:36 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Sandman in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 22:29 -0500 13/2/00, Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
> >SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > > 3) The serial killer's convention would fit right in with the TML<BR>
> > > discussion recently - maybe at Efate?<BR>
> >Damn that is what I thought we where having here...<BR>
><BR>
> Nope, it's a cereal killer convention, with near-C rocks.<BR>
<BR>
Hot damn!  The Oats must be shaking in their sheives.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:20:13 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
<BR>
My sirname "Boleyn" gets mangled in the most amazing ways. It's not usually<BR>
mispelled much (though I do see "Boylen" from time to time), it just gets<BR>
mutated. I get mail for "Bullen", "Boyden", "Bowlen", "Bowden", etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
- - --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Whenever I call a Taxi I use my girlfriends surname of Butcher, 'cause I<BR>
hate having to say, 'No, not mews/cues/lews/chews/souse/booze, it's Hughes'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I mean it's one of the most common names in the Western English speaking<BR>
world for 'significant religious figure's'-sake!*<BR>
<BR>
* For years I thought Hughes was not a common surname but that we (as a<BR>
broad family-name) had just achieved a lot. <BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Imagine if your surname was miss-spelled on an Imperial ID and the<BR>
effort it would take to correct it.<BR>
<BR>
'Okay Mr Mews, you'll have to fill out these serious of forms to correct<BR>
your name'<BR>
'That's Hughes you gigantic A-hole'<BR>
<BR>
Three Months Later X Boat address arrives titled 'Acceptance of corrected<BR>
name on Imperial Database - From Mews to Mews'. <BR>
<BR>
Shades of Brazil...<BR>
<BR>
Michael (Hughes)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:55:13 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
<BR>
Butcher!  Take that name if you get married.<BR>
<BR>
When i was engaged i really wanted my wife's last name of Orozco because it<BR>
was more interesting than Henry.  And because i hate it when people use it<BR>
as my first name.<BR>
<BR>
Nevertheless my beloved insisted on using my name because "it's easier to<BR>
spell"<BR>
<BR>
Of such little things are great decisions made.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Hughes, Michael <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Monday, February 14, 2000 3:42 PM<BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>My sirname "Boleyn" gets mangled in the most amazing ways. It's not usually<BR>
>mispelled much (though I do see "Boylen" from time to time), it just gets<BR>
>mutated. I get mail for "Bullen", "Boyden", "Bowlen", "Bowden", etc, etc.<BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
>"Rupert Boleyn"<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Whenever I call a Taxi I use my girlfriends surname of Butcher, 'cause I<BR>
>hate having to say, 'No, not mews/cues/lews/chews/souse/booze, it's<BR>
Hughes'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 13:57:34 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, but that's the whole *point* of being stealthy. You can't *get*<BR>
> a lock on an F-22. Not with radar anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Stealth, or low radar cross section just gives you a shorter range until<BR>
detection. Remember that received power for a radar is linear in RCS, but is<BR>
also proportional to 1/r^4, and that all you really care about is getting<BR>
enough received power from a target. If I can lock onto you way before you<BR>
can lock onto me, I win.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1919</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1919<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE Tech Prog and SocImp<BR>
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
RE: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
Re: Belter Alert!  RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
the complete story<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
Trademarks<BR>
Re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
Re: Robot Economics<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: TL of Troops<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:32:54 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE Tech Prog and SocImp<BR>
<BR>
In the last several decades, technology has been growing at what some<BR>
consider to be an alarming rate.  Each new technology introduced gives rise<BR>
to new social impacts.<BR>
In school, I remember reading about how the automobile has had a major<BR>
impact upon our "societies."  The main things I remember were dispersement<BR>
and sexual morality.  Before the introduction of easy personal<BR>
transportation, people tended to remain in the area that they were born and<BR>
raised.  After the introduction of cheap personal transportation (thank you<BR>
Mr. Ford), they became more likely to wonder off to new territories.<BR>
Jason T. Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I read somewhere that an eminent British biologist blamed the bicycle for<BR>
stunting human evolution. I think his argument was that as young people<BR>
bicycled away from the village and met other younger (and libido enhanced)<BR>
peoples, it meant marrying out of a smaller gene-pool thus reducing the<BR>
chance for beneficial mutations [please note, I have limited knowledge of<BR>
biology and science - don't hit me Leonard, science scourge of the TML - so<BR>
I can be wrong]. <BR>
<BR>
However frankly I can see the advantages of a wider gene-pool than that of<BR>
local village. Especially in UK places like the, ahem, North, Wales and<BR>
Cornwall . . . (Cornwall from whence mah family came) - or places where<BR>
dueling banjos is a respected pastime.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:12:41 +1000<BR>
From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
<BR>
My wife used to have the name Cowles, she was thrilled to become a Harris, she was heartily sick of making sure they spelled it with an "l",  and not put down "Cows"<BR>
<BR>
ob trav: I get a bit stuck for NPC names some times. Two of the more notable names that my group rembers are "Danny Bouy" and "Deja Vous".<BR>
Both these NPC's, origionally designed as one off's, have been in the group (on and off) for years!<BR>
Another player pointed out that "Phelps" seemed to be a very common surname in the Imperium. Just goes to show how you cna get into a name generation 'rut' sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:58:08 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
<BR>
Don't worry,<BR>
<BR>
I missed your original post, Bruce. Odd, since I usually hang on your every<BR>
word. Well most of them, anyway. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I discovered this offer a couple of weeks ago and placed one order. I was so<BR>
pleased with it, I placed a followup order, which of course contained lots<BR>
of duplicates. That's what I gets fer being greedy!<BR>
<BR>
It has all been TSR products.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Bruce Johnson [mailto:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 1:55 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Damn, I posted the original bit about it and still haven't getten my<BR>
> package yet :-( Maybe today...Tucson seems to be the remote a**-end of<BR>
> UPS'es net.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Bruce Johnson<BR>
> University of Arizona<BR>
> College of Pharmacy<BR>
> Information Technology Group<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:39:35 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Belter Alert!  RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
<BR>
David J Smart wrote:<BR>
> At 10:33am Eastern Standard Time(US) today, the NEAR<BR>
> spacecraft successfully achieved orbit around the asteroid<BR>
> Eros. The first pics from orbit are located at the following<BR>
> URL.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/near.html<BR>
<BR>
WONDERFUL! This is precision of the highest degree! The bl**dy rock is<BR>
only about 40 kilometers long (and a lot thinner in the middle). That's<BR>
not a lot of gravity to hold on to...<BR>
<BR>
> There's even an animation, using real photos, of the<BR>
> asteroid's 5-day orbit.<BR>
<BR>
And the image quality is really good as well. Love it!<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:29:37 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>> Consider the case of a nice fast jet fighter like the Air Force just<BR>
>> *loves*. Put it up against a biplane. Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
>> guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
>> interesting because the *top* speed of the biplane is below the *stall*<BR>
>> speed for the jet. And the biplane can turn a lot sharper.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A more interesting matchup would be an  aircraft with Harrier style flight<BR>
capabilities vs. your nice fast jet figher, say one of those jets the frogs<BR>
flogged about the world not to long ago.  Such a matchup did occur some<BR>
years back in the Brit vs. Arggies dust up. The tech is about the same but<BR>
the Harriers came out on top.  That said what about a chopper vs.  a nice<BR>
fast jet fighter.  There is some official doctrine on these matchups as<BR>
well.  If the slower more manuverable craft has the capacity to reach out<BR>
and touch his opponent and the terrain lets him dodge in the ground clutter,<BR>
i.e. get lost in it,  well... it would be a bit like trying to fight a<BR>
badger on the ground and giving the badger a set of very long claws in the<BR>
bargain.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:40:02 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
 >Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
<BR>
Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month <BR>
pre-mature...<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."<BR>
                 http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:50:41 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> Odd thing for a Marine Sergeant-Instructor to say... (yes, you got<BR>
> in.)<BR>
<BR>
Weeee  :-)<BR>
<BR>
Must have that book... need it anyway, even more so now...<BR>
<BR>
> I did try to make the military, especially the Marines, different<BR>
> from the American equivalents.<BR>
<BR>
Wonderful. Since I don't know much (or even close) about the American<BR>
military, I am happy as long as the book doesn't assume that I know<BR>
things I don't.<BR>
<BR>
Sadly, this is not the case with every RPG supplement out there...<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:53:26 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
> > "Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
> > > If Section G did protect them from this, then SJG could happily<BR>
> > > re-publish the entire D&D series if someone posted it to their<BR>
> > > discussion board.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > A ridiculously extreme hypothetical case, but what the hell.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, I agree, but it points out the flaw in your argument.<BR>
><BR>
> > If someone with apparent authority to do so, agreed to the subscriber<BR>
> > agreement, that would be a contract for transferal of the copyright.<BR>
><BR>
> I agree, but we're not talking about someone with the appropriate authority.<BR>
<BR>
Yes we are.  By accepting the agreement, anything you post, you<BR>
do with apparent authority to do so, else you accept the responsibility<BR>
for infringing the copyright of others.<BR>
<BR>
> > In the case of D&D material, it would not be reasonable to believe that<BR>
> > Eneri X had legitimate authorty to do post the material.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course not, but this is the whole point, in _no_ case is it 'legally'<BR>
> reasonable for a publisher to assume that any poster has legitimate<BR>
> authority to post the material.<BR>
<BR>
By making the agreement, you are asserting authority to post anything<BR>
you post and accepting responsibility for any infringement of copyright<BR>
for anything you post which is not yours. That is explicit in the agreement.<BR>
The publisher is thus able to rely upon that agreement.  (That doesn't<BR>
mean they shouldn't double-check, but that is more to avoid the potential<BR>
of a lawsuit rather than the merits of a potential suit.)<BR>
<BR>
> In _all_ cases the publisher would not be excercising, what is it? due care?<BR>
> if they published relying _only_ on 'Section G'.<BR>
><BR>
> They would have to show that they had at least gained written comfirmation<BR>
> of the posters authority to provide the materiel to stand any chance of a<BR>
> defence.<BR>
<BR>
And the subcriber contract, a legally enforceable agreement, suffices for<BR>
that purpose.<BR>
<BR>
> Hell, as this is an electronic forum we'e talkimg about, they can't even be<BR>
> reasonably sure that it was in fact the person who agreed to Section G that<BR>
> posted the materiel, unless they use some secure form of identification<BR>
> verification such as a digital signature on the posts.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, they can.  They are entitled to rely on the credit card transaction.<BR>
They may not be able to be 'certain' but certainty is a different standard<BR>
and not relevant to this discussion.<BR>
<BR>
> > > This is exactly the same as recieving stolen goods, while you can claim<BR>
> > > anything you want in any agreements with the person you bought<BR>
> > > them from, you're still breaking the law by receiving stolen goods.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The key element in that crime is _knowledge_.  If I steal your teddy<BR>
> > bear (assuming it hasn't got your name or other non-removable indicia<BR>
> > of ownership on it)  and go sell it to a pawn shop, the pawn shop has<BR>
> > committed no crime even though they have received stolen goods.<BR>
><BR>
> Wrong. At least under British and other Roman derived legal systems.<BR>
<BR>
Not relevant in this context.  The agreement choice of law section<BR>
specifies Texas, and by implication the US.<BR>
<BR>
And, BTW, US Law is a British-derived legal system (though the<BR>
Brits have begun to abandon their common law traditions, particularly<BR>
the rule of stare decisis).<BR>
<BR>
From Black's Law Dictionary:<BR>
"Receiving stolen goods or property.  A criminal offense of receiving<BR>
any property with the _knowledge_ that it has been feloniously, or<BR>
unlawfuklly stolen, taken, extorted, obtained, embexxled, or disposed<BR>
of." [emphasis added]<BR>
All other definitions in that text also require knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Ignorance is never a defence.<BR>
<BR>
Ignorance of the LAW is no defense.  Where knowledge is<BR>
an key element of a crime, ignorange IS a defense because it<BR>
negates the mens rea (mental state) requirement of the crime.<BR>
And that knowledge need not be 'actual knowledge', 'constructive<BR>
knowledge' will suffice.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> As I said, this is the original derivation of the term 'caveat emptor'.<BR>
<BR>
From Blacks Law Dictionary:<BR>
"This maxim is more applicable to judicial sales, auctions, and the like,<BR>
than to sales of consumer goods where strict liabilty, warranty, and<BR>
other consumer protection laws protect the consumer-buyer."<BR>
<BR>
> > The agreement puts the burden on you to _not_ violate the copyright<BR>
> > of another. And since this agreement must precede any potential<BR>
> > post, it is fairly strong.  You post someone elses copyrighted material,<BR>
> > SJG later publishes something containing same, and gets sued by that<BR>
> > someone else, by operation of the subscriber agreement, they bring<BR>
> > you into the case and get out of it themselves (I'll spare you the<BR>
> > legal procedure terminology), so its your ass in the fire.<BR>
><BR>
> Irrelevant. The argument here is whether it _protects_ the publisher, which<BR>
> it does not.<BR>
<BR>
What part of "get out of [the case] themselves" doesn't protect the<BR>
publisher?  I think you misread me.<BR>
<BR>
> The copyright holder would still require the publisher to either recall all<BR>
> copies of the infringing product or make appropriate reparations, as it's<BR>
> _they_ that have carried out a _second_ infringment.<BR>
<BR>
Whoa.  Different issue.  Thats a remedial measure.  Once the original<BR>
copyright owner alleges infringement, continued publication may very<BR>
well be contributory infringement.  It would probably be unreasonable<BR>
to continue publication in the face of an allegation of infringement.<BR>
That is why the original copyright owner would file for a preliminary<BR>
injunction to prevent the publisher from continuing with publication<BR>
until the actual infringement suit is adjudicated.  You wouldn't want<BR>
to trust that the publisher is smart enough to know when to stop<BR>
publishing the allegedly infringing work, and you wouldn't want to<BR>
be bothered with filing a separate suit for contributory infringement<BR>
for publishing after the allegation of infringement.<BR>
<BR>
> The holder's only redress against the original poster is for the original<BR>
> violation, which is likely nowhere near the redress they have against the<BR>
> publisher's  violation, eapecially if the publisher made any money.<BR>
<BR>
Its a consequential damage if the poster's posting led to the<BR>
publisher's publishing and thatn damaged the copyright owner.<BR>
Fully recoverable _against the poster_.!  Doubtful that Joe<BR>
Poster has pockets deep enough to get much cash from.<BR>
He may well be "judgment proof", i.e., not enough cash for you<BR>
to ever see a dime.  But that doesn't make the publisher<BR>
liablie for anything.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, in our overly litigious world, you couldn't get a<BR>
good lawyer to work for you unless you were willing to<BR>
also sue the publisher (even though you shouldn't be able<BR>
to win against them) because they presumably have much<BR>
deeper pockets and in all likelihood will settile the case<BR>
at an early point.  That means the merits of the case are<BR>
irrelevant.  At some point, the legal accounting formula<BR>
says settling is cheaper than going to court and winning.<BR>
And that pays the lawyers rent.  Not suing judgment proof<BR>
posters.<BR>
<BR>
> The point is that you cannot avoid being responsible for committing a crime<BR>
> by saying it was sonmeone else's duty to prevent you from committing it,<BR>
> even if that is said in a legal agreement ( except perhaps in the case of<BR>
> diminished responsibility, wards, or minors ).<BR>
<BR>
Criminal copyright infringement is an entirely different kettle of fish.<BR>
This whole discussion has been implicitly about civil copyright infringement.<BR>
The original copyright owner doesn't bring criminal suits for copyright<BR>
infringement, the state does.<BR>
<BR>
> > I hope you can understand it now because I don't think I can make it<BR>
> > any clearer for you.<BR>
><BR>
> You don't need to make it clearer, I fully understand what you're saying.<BR>
><BR>
> I just disagree.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  I think we're looking at different laws.  You're interpreting<BR>
some non-US law, and I'm talking about US law.  So you may<BR>
be correct about those laws.  But as I mentioned above, the only<BR>
law relevant to any analysis of the subscriber agreement are the laws<BR>
of the US and Texas.  Anyone making the agreement accepts that<BR>
and won't be able to get out of it.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:02:01 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Trademarks<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > I think that may be a bad example because given the 100+ year age of<BR>
> > Doyle's work, the copyrights may well have expired.<BR>
><BR>
> Which I suspect is exactly why they are trying to maintain the trademark, as<BR>
> those don't have 100 year expiration if it kept in use. (in general)<BR>
<BR>
Yup.  Trademarks: Use 'em or lose 'em.<BR>
Longest one in continual use:  Bass Beer's Red Triangle.<BR>
<BR>
> > Trademark discussions get very confused very quickly, so I think it<BR>
> > helps to be anally retentive about the issues, not that its<BR>
> > really possible.<BR>
> > You should see the puzzled looks on the faces of law students when<BR>
> > they discover that you can trademark a color.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Though that having been said, the only case I'm aware of where trademarking<BR>
> a colour was tried (here in New Zealand, the colour Telecom used in their<BR>
> web pages) was basically laughed out of court when they tried to enforce it.<BR>
<BR>
In the US, the Supreme Court ruled in 1995 that a color can meet<BR>
the legal requirements of a trademark (a litigant had alleged that color<BR>
alone can never be a trademark).  I'm unaware of the subsequent<BR>
history and too lazy to go to the library to look it up, at least without<BR>
being paid.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> IIRC, the defendant used the simple expedient of pointing out that all<BR>
> versions of Windows 95, 98, NT , and Unix installations running a colour<BR>
> window manager (such as Motif) with 16-bit or higher video drivers contained<BR>
> a tool that also violated this trademark, and had been doing so for many<BR>
> years.<BR>
<BR>
Well, trademarks are also limited by the market they are used in.<BR>
That another computer program was capable of creating or displaying<BR>
the same color isn't relevant.  To protect such a trademark, they would<BR>
only need to sue those using the same color as a source identifier in<BR>
the same market.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, many trademark cases boil down to defining the relevant market.<BR>
You win that and you usually win the case.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:03:30 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Peter and I have whiled away many an evening (often to the wee hours of the<BR>
> morning) on the topic of how the imperium operates in one or the other's<BR>
> living room,<BR>
<BR>
This is in the Boston area?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:30:13 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Robot Economics<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:22:08 -0500<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
>Subject: Re: Robot Economics<BR>
<BR>
> With the advent of anagathics, I can believe that the<BR>
> megacorps might think more long-term than their modern<BR>
> analogs seem to.  So, I do not disagree, but I could<BR>
> also see the necessity of having sufficient wisdom to<BR>
> stick to such policies.  My choice of the term "goodwill"<BR>
> was misleading, I meant that individual megacorps would<BR>
> need to all stick together.  One that cheated might take<BR>
> the others, build an unstoppable robot navy, and rule<BR>
> the universe (insert maniacal laughter here).<BR>
><BR>
>Peez<BR>
<BR>
Now I get it. But that's where the indoctrination meetings come<BR>
in.<BR>
<BR>
Shadowy figure (in calm steady low voice) : Keep your eye on<BR>
   the watch as it slowly swings back and forth. Back and forth.<BR>
   See the prety watch swing back and forth. Back and forth.<BR>
<BR>
Mid level Executive : (snore)<BR>
<BR>
Shadowy figure : Repeat after me; I will not build robot armies to<BR>
  take over the imperium<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Mid level Executive (in dreamy monotone) : I will not....<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:30:57 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Wrong. At least under British and other Roman derived legal systems.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >It is true that in many such cases the police will not prosecute, unless the<BR>
> >dealer makes a habit of it, but it is technically a crime to recieve stolen<BR>
> >goods irrespective of whether you are aware that you are doing so.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Ignorance is never a defence.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, in systems using non-professional jurors, Ignorance is a defense,<BR>
> especially if it's the joint ignorance of the Jury and the Defendant. Jury<BR>
> nullification works, ladies and gentlemen. Hence, IMTU, Noble being<BR>
> entitled to trial by thier peers, and hence probably being able to get a<BR>
> nullification by jury for anything not outright obviously their fault. The<BR>
> nobility is thus able to perpetuate a desire to be nobles amongst the<BR>
> non-nobles...<BR>
><BR>
> And in the case of US copyright laws, Trademark Laws, and other<BR>
> intellectual property laws (Like Texas' Trade Secrets laws), ignorance may<BR>
> in fact be the best defense: most intellectual property laws in the US have<BR>
> some stipulation to follow intent. In fact, this is true in most of the<BR>
> Murder Laws in the US:<BR>
><BR>
> Typically, intent to kill is required for Murder. Manslaughter lacks intent<BR>
> to kill, or at least reasonable doubt of intent to kill (although intent to<BR>
> harm may exist!).<BR>
><BR>
> Roman law, nee, romano-judeao-christian law, which is the basis of many<BR>
> legal systems in Europe, and is the basis for US law, as well as the laws<BR>
> of most US member states (Exception: Louisianna), frequently requires some<BR>
> level of intent adjudication.<BR>
<BR>
I think Frank meant to distinguish "Common Law" countries from what most<BR>
US legal scholars call "Civil Law" countries (often called "Romano-German"<BR>
by European legal scholars). In an abstract sense, they all have the same source,<BR>
<BR>
but in significant ways they do not.  The briefest explanation is that "civil<BR>
law"<BR>
is effectively derived from the Justinian Code, where the "common law" is<BR>
derived from judges. [That is grossly oversimplified]<BR>
<BR>
A brief bullet list of differences:<BR>
<BR>
Common Law: Laws are assumed to be incomplete, i.e, not every<BR>
situation can be covered by a specific law.  Judges/Courts allowed<BR>
to "fill the gaps" by making law, so long as they follow the rule of<BR>
"stare decisis" ("a thing decided").  That means that when the exact<BR>
same factual situation is encountered, the judge must deal with it<BR>
exactly as it was dealt with by a previous judge.  But if the facts are<BR>
different, the judge is able to decide it differently.  In this way,<BR>
a judge's hands are often tied.  [This generally means England and<BR>
the US, though in the 60s, the UK technically abandoned the rule<BR>
of stare decisis].<BR>
<BR>
Civil Law: The laws are assumed to be complete, or nearly so.<BR>
Often, there are many fewer written laws (take a look at some<BR>
French Constitiutions or the German General Laws).  Judges/Courts<BR>
are _not_ bound by the rule of stare decisis, so they have more<BR>
lattitude and a lawyer/advocate cannot tie the judge's hands by<BR>
citing some previous case that the judge must obey, at least not<BR>
nearly so effectively.  There is of course some sense of tradition<BR>
in how certain types of cases are generally dealt with, but these<BR>
are as technically restrictive as they are in common law countries.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there are many other differences, but IMHO, these<BR>
are the fundamental ones.  Many of the other differences are<BR>
administrative in nature.  And there are a lot fewer common<BR>
law countries so it may not be fair to say that such administrative<BR>
and bureaucratic differences are inherent in the nature of the<BR>
different systems.<BR>
<BR>
Ob. Trav.:  IMHO, there are very strong reasons why the 3I<BR>
is more likely to follow the Civil Law tradition, especially<BR>
outside of the context of direct noble rule, i.e, when the Baron's<BR>
away.  So, I like the idea of an Imperial Code, sort of like<BR>
Justinian's, but from the Emperor and probably not binding<BR>
on peers.  Periodically, the records of all the cases by judges<BR>
would be collected and published. And then eventually, but<BR>
rarely, this body of records would be analyzed and used as<BR>
the basis for refining the Imperial Code.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: Imperial Law, as evidenced in canon, is obviously using some<BR>
> adjudication: "Murder is the unreasoned taking of a sapient life."<BR>
> Unreasoned directly implies requiring some decision process which allows<BR>
> for the taking of sapient life in some circumstances; then this leads to<BR>
> the intent issue, as well as acceptability issues.<BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't that be "reasoned"?  Or perhaps "unreasonable"?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:35:38 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Kagehira@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Not necessarily. I know someone who unknowingly purchased stolen goods and<BR>
> got busted. From then on he made all sellers sign a statement saying that the<BR>
> goods were there's to sell.<BR>
><BR>
> Bryan<BR>
<BR>
What does "bust" mean?  He was arrested?  Was he convicted?<BR>
Totally different situations.<BR>
<BR>
And knowldge need not be actual.  "Constructive knowledge", i.e.,<BR>
"you should have known", is good enough.<BR>
<BR>
And state laws vary slightly.  Its possible that some minority states<BR>
also allow prosecution for different mental states, such as "recklessly",<BR>
"purposefully", or "negligently".<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:37:56 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of Troops<BR>
<BR>
Ewoks vs. Imperial Storm<BR>
>Troopers<BR>
>are all nice and good, but if the Imperials called for nerve gas or air<BR>
>burst artillery -- secure in the notion that their own body armor would<BR>
>protect --<BR>
>there would be a special on fur rugs offered for the next couple of weeks.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, you can design scenarios that negate this as well ("the aliens<BR>
>have hard spiny shells, and our gasses don't affect their biochemistry, an<BR>
>dthey don't show up on infrared, sarge!") which is rather amusing, or set<BR>
>things up<BR>
>so you don't want to flatten the area (resources, settlers, ancient ruins).<BR>
><BR>
>so many rugs.<BR>
<BR>
    Guilty secret here, when a friend brought over Rifts and described it as<BR>
a Star Warsian RPG I of course had to run it. There always seemed to be a<BR>
bounty on Ewoks wherever you went.<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:03:14 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Jason T. Barnabas <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 14 February 2000 19:22<BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: <Kagehira@aol.com><BR>
>> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > The key element in that crime is _knowledge_.  If I steal your teddy<BR>
>> >  bear (assuming it hasn't got your name or other non-removable indicia<BR>
>> >  of ownership on it)  and go sell it to a pawn shop, the pawn shop has<BR>
>> >  committed no crime even though they have received stolen goods.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Not necessarily. I know someone who unknowingly purchased stolen goods<BR>
and<BR>
>> got busted. From then on he made all sellers sign a statement saying that<BR>
>> the goods were there's to sell.<BR>
><BR>
>Getting busted has nothing to do with criminality, even<BR>
>convition often is unrelated to the question.  A good many<BR>
>fine folks have be convicted of crimes for a simple lack of<BR>
>effective defense.  These people are convicts, but not<BR>
>actually criminals.<BR>
<BR>
>Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
>to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.  A right may<BR>
>not be infringed nor regulated by legal code.  Yet, every state<BR>
>that I have checked on has a "law" requiring drivers to be<BR>
>licenced.<BR>
- -------------------------------------------<BR>
And this infringes your right to travel how?<BR>
<BR>
No one is saying that you cannot go where you want to go, only that to drive<BR>
yourself there you need to be able to demonstate that you are capable of<BR>
controlling 3/4 of a ton of metal moving at 55mph so as to not endanger<BR>
either yourself or other road users. Now, you might respond "I don't need a<BR>
license to demonstrate that, my ability is obvious."<BR>
<BR>
I agree, in most circumstances you can clearly demonstrate an obvious<BR>
ability eg driving in a straight line, coming to a slow stop, straight<BR>
forward steering, etc. But the license demonstates you have achieve a<BR>
measured, standardised competence in, among other things, emergency stops,<BR>
awareness of other road users, rights of way etc... Oops, perhaps you feel<BR>
that stop signs unconstitutionally infringe upon your inalienable *right* to<BR>
blithely scythe your way through cross traffic <g>. Or that complying with<BR>
the requirement of driving on the right (wierdos... <g>) infringes your<BR>
*right* to *travel* at 100mph weaving erratically along the left-hand side<BR>
of the freeway....<BR>
<BR>
And NASA are infringing your right to travel to outer space by not letting<BR>
you walk in off the street and Pilot the Shuttle.... The Unconstitutional<BR>
Bastards!<BR>
- ------------------------------------------<BR>
>How do they get away with this?  The words used in law do<BR>
<BR>
>not always mean what they do in real life.  For example, in<BR>
>most US jurisdictions, the word "driver" is defined legally as<BR>
>someone who opperates a motor vehicle for profit.  So, if<BR>
>you do not carry people or goods for profit, you are not a<BR>
>driver (legally speaking).<BR>
- ------------------------------------------<BR>
Legalism gone mad....<BR>
<BR>
Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at with<BR>
stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world?<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------<BR>
>Other words that get twisted by legal definitions include<BR>
>"shall" and "must," which have been defined as meaning<BR>
>"may" by the US Supreme Court in order to keep legal<BR>
>codes from being unconstitutional.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------<BR>
See above...<BR>
- ------------------------------------------<BR>
>On the other hand, in real life, a driver is the person who<BR>
>controls a car, bus or truck reguardless of profit.  So, when<BR>
>people read the legal code that says, "All drivers must be<BR>
>licenced."  They naturally assume that if they want to use<BR>
>thier private, non-commercial carriage, they need a licence<BR>
>issued by the state.<BR>
><BR>
>If they don't get the state's licence or allow it to laps and are<BR>
>busted by the supposed "public servants" (such as police<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
You mean that if they arrest you (You in General) then they are Fascist<BR>
Lackey's, even if they are 'serving the public' by removing a source of<BR>
danger from the roads....<BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
>or hiway patrol officers), they can be convicted of violating<BR>
>the law, simply because they don't know what thier rights are.<BR>
><BR>
>Even most lawyers don't actually know what thier rights are<BR>
>because they are part of the system and the system doesn't<BR>
>thrive when the people know what thier rights are.<BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
No, the system thrives due to the legal wranglings of people trying to<BR>
assume a right where none exists<BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
>Knowledge is Power.   The politicos who have converted our<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
  ^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
I advise you to aquire some. And a spell checker.<BR>
                                             VVVVVVV<BR>
VVV<BR>
- ------------------------------------------<BR>
>beautiful republic into a "democtracy" do not want thier apple<BR>
>cart upset.<BR>
>--<BR>
>Jason<BR>
><BR>
>Disclaimer:  I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
Obviously. Though I expect you believe you should have the 'right' to be<BR>
one, even without a license <g><BR>
- -----------------------------------------<BR>
>I also do not advocate breaking any legal codes nor civil<BR>
>disobedience in any form.  The above is provided by way of<BR>
>illustration only.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1919<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1920</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1920<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
The Tale of the Non-choking Arnie<BR>
Re: FYI<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED NPC Naming<BR>
Re: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies <BR>
Re: Surplus Economies <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:55:12 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: The Tale of the Non-choking Arnie<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>>So, for example, in Total Recall, Arnie and his<BR>
>>girlfriend are on the surface of Mars, suffocating,<BR>
>>when the atmosphere machine kicks in, and within<BR>
>>thirty seconds they have a breathable atmosphere, at<BR>
>>least in the immediate area. My question there was,<BR>
>>why didn't Arnie and his girl boil? The ground melt?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
My understanding of the movie was that it was all a "virtual memory" and<BR>
being fiction such things were a indication thereof.<BR>
<BR>
How's that for a hand wave.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:47:02 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: FYI<BR>
<BR>
Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
>     Being concerned about misspelling on the net is like disliking the tide.<BR>
<BR>
What's so odd about disliking the Tide?  Even before I moved to Baton<BR>
Rouge (whose primary university is also in the SEC), I rooted against<BR>
Alabama.<BR>
<BR>
[For those TMLers who do not follow American collegiate sports, the<BR>
University of Alabama's team name is the Crimson Tide.]<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:44:00 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
First of all, could you please cite the articles of the Berne<BR>
Convention you are referring to, next time?  I hate thumbing<BR>
through that.<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Disclaimer - I am **not** a lawyer, but I **am** a data administrator<BR>
> and an author, so I am well aware of the appropriate current and<BR>
> impending laws.<BR>
><BR>
> There are a number of problems with the SJG rights as claimed in this<BR>
> thread.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Terms of handling of copyright issues must be EXPLICITY agreed by<BR>
> contributors in order to be determined by the rules IMPLICITLY assumed<BR>
> by the publishers. Failing explicit agreements, copyright is<BR>
> determined by the regulations in force in the legislative state<BR>
> (usually a nation) where the copyright material is PRODUCED (ie.<BR>
> written). [Berne Agreement].<BR>
<BR>
The treaty is a default rule.  People are free to contract around it<BR>
(except for the right of attribution).  The treaty has already been<BR>
integrated into US law.<BR>
<BR>
> 2. Designation of copyright, where required, is determined by the<BR>
> requirements of the legislative state in which the copyright material<BR>
> is produced. [also Berne Agreement].<BR>
><BR>
> These two issues do indeed leave SJG open to legal action if their<BR>
> handling of the issue is as claimed, since no explicit agreement is<BR>
> required (they assume IMPLICIT agreement of the contract by<BR>
> contributors).<BR>
<BR>
You're not making sense to me here.  In what way is the<BR>
subscriber agreement not explicit?  You can't post without<BR>
agreeing to it.  That is an exlpicit contract, satisifes the<BR>
requirements copyright law.  Sure, its an adhesion contract without<BR>
negotiation of terms, but there is nothing improper about that.<BR>
Don't want to agree, don't post.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Secondly, designation of<BR>
> copyright is determined by the nation of origin, not of publication,<BR>
> and most nations do not require explicit copyright identification,<BR>
> although they do ADVISE it if the document is to be circulated outside<BR>
> the nation of origin.<BR>
<BR>
Just like the US.  No copyright notice is required for copyright to<BR>
exist.  I think we all agree on that.<BR>
<BR>
> Having met these requirements, the work is then fully copyright<BR>
> protected for the life of the **writer** (even if copyright is<BR>
> assigned to someone else). In the UK, a further period after death is<BR>
> also protected, for example.<BR>
<BR>
Life of the author  + 70 years in the US..<BR>
<BR>
> 3. It is not demonstrably necassary for SJG to possess the personal<BR>
> information (ie. the name) of the copyright holder unless they are<BR>
> prepared to designate that copyright on that material. Nor have they<BR>
> demonstrated that they will appropriately protect and maintain that<BR>
> data.<BR>
<BR>
I don't understand your concern here.<BR>
Whatever you post under the agreement that you don't explicitly<BR>
reserve the copyright to, becomes a property of SJG (you're still<BR>
the author, they are the owner).  You may still have a right of<BR>
attribution, i.e., they may have to put your name on the material<BR>
you wrote (I'm not certain about that due to the complexities of<BR>
the attribution rights in the international context).<BR>
<BR>
For material you do reserve the copyright to, no worries.<BR>
They can't publish it. So, there isn't any copyright to designate<BR>
except for their own.  And in neither case are you obligated to<BR>
use your real name.<BR>
<BR>
I see no significant or even legitimate concern here.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> 4. SJG have not demonstrated willingness to abide by data protection<BR>
> regulations in force outside the US and therefore it is currently<BR>
> questionable whether it is permitted to provide personal copyright<BR>
> information on submitted material that does not belong to you<BR>
> personally, if submitted within the UK.<BR>
<BR>
Say what?  That statement needs to be parsed down.<BR>
<BR>
"SJG have not demonstrated willingness to abide by data protection<BR>
regulations in force outside the US"<BR>
<BR>
You want a US company to agree to international rules that don't<BR>
apply to it?  Is that right?  And the data you want them to protect<BR>
is the identity of a contributor?<BR>
<BR>
"and therefore it is currently questionable whether it is permitted<BR>
to provide personal copyright information on submitted material<BR>
that does not belong to you personally, if submitted within the UK."<BR>
<BR>
What is "personal copyright information"?  If its the author, then<BR>
in many countries, yuo MUST provide it else you violate that<BR>
author's right of attribution to the material he created.<BR>
<BR>
You really need to break this concern down so that it makes<BR>
sense.  You're leaving a lot of stuff unsaid and my psionic skill<BR>
isn't strong enough to see whats in your head.<BR>
<BR>
> In other words, if your mate<BR>
> tells you something, there is a possibility that you should NOT TELL<BR>
> SJG his/her name to claim copyright. After March 1st, it will be<BR>
> **illegal** to do so (pending changes in the US data protection<BR>
> regulations), from anywhere within the EU.<BR>
<BR>
"Telling" doesn't qualify for copyright protection.  It must be<BR>
fixed in a tangible medium.  Taking a stab in the dark here,<BR>
do you mean to say that if your mate wrote something, and<BR>
you posted it to SJG's board, but you want to preserve the<BR>
copyright to it, then you shouldn't put her name on it?<BR>
<BR>
Well, cutting to the chase, it doesn't matter.  It is my _unofficial_<BR>
opinion that adding "copyright reserved" to any post on SJG's<BR>
board would be sufficient to preserve your copyright in the<BR>
posted material.  (Why?  Because IMHO it meets the terms of<BR>
the subscriber agreement.  Although it is doesn't meat the<BR>
technical requirements of notice, notice isn't required for<BR>
copyright to attach.  The "explicit notice" required by the<BR>
SJG subscriber agreement is not further specified.).<BR>
<BR>
> In a nutshell, SJG are attempting to foist national (US state)<BR>
> agreements on international documents and publication.<BR>
<BR>
Treaties to which the US is a party are incorporated into<BR>
US law.  If you agree to the subscriber agreement, you agreed<BR>
to accept US law.  Its a simple and standard arrangement.<BR>
<BR>
> To add insult to<BR>
> injury, they are also attempting to enforce implicit acceptance of US<BR>
> laws by international contributors, which is explicilty forbidden by<BR>
> international agreements to which the US is already a signatory.<BR>
<BR>
Show me.  Are you not free to make contracts in your country?<BR>
Are they making default property rules to which you cannot<BR>
contract around?<BR>
<BR>
> I did say some time ago on this thread, that international<BR>
> contributors really should just ignore the copyright issue<BR>
<BR>
Amen.  Just say "copyright reserved" on your posts and<BR>
don't worry about it.  There isn't a there there.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:41:14 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED NPC Naming<BR>
<BR>
My wife used to have the name Cowles, she was thrilled to become a Harris,<BR>
she was heartily sick of making sure they spelled it with an "l",  and not<BR>
put down "Cows"<BR>
ob trav: I get a bit stuck for NPC names some times. Two of the more notable<BR>
names that my group rembers are "Danny Bouy" and "Deja Vous".<BR>
Both these NPC's, origionally designed as one off's, have been in the group<BR>
(on and off) for years!<BR>
Another player pointed out that "Phelps" seemed to be a very common surname<BR>
in the Imperium. Just goes to show how you cna get into a name generation<BR>
'rut' sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
Scout Harris<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It's amazing (and excellent) how one off NPCS can ingratiate their way into<BR>
a campaign. When running Dragonquest of many years back, I had an NPC<BR>
Merchant who sold 'anything and everything' by the name of Honest Abdul. And<BR>
if he didn't have it for sale, a cousin did. If PC's tried to back out of a<BR>
deal Honest Abdul would rant and wail until they changed their minds by<BR>
offering frankly ridiculous bargains. Many years later whilst reading<BR>
Pratchett ('we're not worthy'), I saw a whole bunch of parallels with<BR>
C.M.O.T. Dibbler (and whatever relative he had in other lands).<BR>
<BR>
Having a cool NPC that the player's like interacting with is one of the best<BR>
Gming buzzes you can get...<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:58:00 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> >Damn, I posted the original bit about it and still haven't getten my<BR>
> >package yet :-( Maybe today...Tucson seems to be the remote a**-end of<BR>
> >UPS'es net.<BR>
> <BR>
> I ordered about a day later, and still haven't seen my<BR>
> package - rpg stuff and lots of widdle-bitty Buck Rogers<BR>
> space ships. I'm thinking of contacting them tonight.<BR>
<BR>
Could you let me know whether the Buck Rogers ships would be suitable<BR>
for Silent Death?  (Naturally, I'd also be interested in whether the BR<BR>
ships look slightly plausible as Traveller ships.)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:52:24 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/14/00 4:03:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> What does "bust" mean?  He was arrested?  Was he convicted?<BR>
>  Totally different situations.<BR>
<BR>
As in arrested and convicted (or at least plead, can't remember which).<BR>
  <BR>
>  And knowldge need not be actual.  "Constructive knowledge", i.e.,<BR>
>  "you should have known", is good enough.<BR>
<BR>
Coming to think of it there where some others recently too. They fall in the <BR>
'you should have known category'. Whereas in the previous case, maybe, maybe <BR>
not (we were in the business of buying used appliances and tended to presume <BR>
what was being sold belonged to the selling party).<BR>
<BR>
>  And state laws vary slightly.  Its possible that some minority states<BR>
>  also allow prosecution for different mental states, such as "recklessly",<BR>
>  "purposefully", or "negligently".<BR>
  <BR>
State of California.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:11:57 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
<BR>
Kagehira@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/14/00 4:03:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,<BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > What does "bust" mean?  He was arrested?  Was he convicted?<BR>
> >  Totally different situations.<BR>
><BR>
> As in arrested and convicted (or at least plead, can't remember which).<BR>
<BR>
If you plead guilty, well, you get what you plead to.  Lots of guilty<BR>
pleas are interesting works of fiction.<BR>
<BR>
> State of California.<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  I thought you were talking about the US.<BR>
<BR>
Say no more.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:43:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Sorry, but that's the whole *point* of being stealthy. You can't *get*<BR>
>> a lock on an F-22. Not with radar anyway.<BR>
><BR>
> Stealth, or low radar cross section just gives you a shorter range until<BR>
> detection. Remember that received power for a radar is linear in RCS, but is<BR>
> also proportional to 1/r^4, and that all you really care about is getting<BR>
> enough received power from a target. If I can lock onto you way before you<BR>
> can lock onto me, I win.<BR>
<BR>
But are you locked onto *me*, or one of the hunks of chaff I just threw<BR>
out of the cockpit?<BR>
<BR>
Heck, it'd almost be a good idea for one of these old "kites" to drag a<BR>
small radar corner behind it. Give the missile a target to lock onto.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:45:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> In addition, the F-22 will be firing a<BR>
>> missile from many miles away in which case the<BR>
><BR>
> And why wouldn't the bi-plane be doing the same thing ?<BR>
> <grin><BR>
><BR>
> Retro-fit the biplane with some avionics and a missile that can be dropped<BR>
> before ignition and you have a very cheap mobile missile platform.<BR>
<BR>
Most decent missiles are a bit on the heavy side for a biplane. <BR>
<BR>
>> maneuverability of the biplane will not<BR>
>> matter, since it will have to outmaneuver a missile rather than another<BR>
>> aircraft.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, it might be able to do that. Most missiles, while more<BR>
> maneuverable than jets, are still travelling too fast to turn tightly enough<BR>
> to follow a biplane's turn.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, the simplest way for a jet fighter to take out a biplane would be<BR>
> to either fly past it very fast and knock it out of the sky with turbulence,<BR>
> or to vector some infantry or armour with kinetic weapons in on it.<BR>
><BR>
> The first technique would be dangerous if the biplane had misiles too.<BR>
<BR>
Simple and safe method. Just make a "close" supersonic pass. The<BR>
shockwave will tear the biplane into little pieces...<BR>
<BR>
>> I suppose at the end of the day that I will take the high TL force and let<BR>
>> Leonard fight in the low TL force.<BR>
><BR>
> If it was an "equal" contest in a "wargames points cost" way, I suspect I'd<BR>
> be betting on Leonard, assuming that for some reason the war had to actually<BR>
> be won rather than just nuking the planet from orbit.<BR>
<BR>
> Still, that would be an unlikely real world scenario.<BR>
><BR>
> In any case where the outcome had any doubt, I'd say esprit du corps would<BR>
> be more important than tech level.<BR>
<BR>
At the very least, *intelligently* used low tech forces could tie up a<BR>
*lot* of high tech forces. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:42:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> When I was in the US Army I used to know the capabilities and<BR>
> limitations of<BR>
>>> all of the Russian equipment. What the effective ranges of all of their<BR>
>>> weapons were, how much they could elevate or depress their guns, the<BR>
>>> effective ranges of our weapons against their systems, and so on. Can you<BR>
>>> imagine Imperial troops knowing this type of imformation about all of <BR>
> their<BR>
>>> potential adversaries?<BR>
>><BR>
>>*Way* too many "potential adversaries". <BR>
><BR>
> This might kill the "travel to the battle in low berths" concept completely.<BR>
><BR>
> You'd need those couple of months in transit to train for your expected<BR>
> adversary.<BR>
<BR>
And one good thing about ships being the fastest means of<BR>
communication. You won't get re-directed at the last minute to<BR>
someplace else.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:20:27 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at with<BR>
> stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world?<BR>
<BR>
This coming from the land that requires a license to own a<BR>
television and has no written coherent constitution?  And<BR>
Germans masquerading as English royalty?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
That 'stunned bemusement' goes both ways.  And a great many of the<BR>
oddities of US law were borrowed directly from jolly old England.<BR>
They started the whole common law mess.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >Even most lawyers don't actually know what thier rights are<BR>
> >because they are part of the system and the system doesn't<BR>
> >thrive when the people know what thier rights are.<BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
> No, the system thrives due to the legal wranglings of people trying to<BR>
> assume a right where none exists<BR>
<BR>
I agree with you there.  We are quick to see an entitlement<BR>
where none officially exists.  While that spirit leads to<BR>
written constitutions and great democratic freedoms, some<BR>
people can take it too far.<BR>
<BR>
> I advise you to aquire some. And a spell checker.<BR>
<BR>
Laingwage fashist!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> Obviously. Though I expect you believe you should have the 'right' to be<BR>
> one, even without a license <g><BR>
<BR>
Everyone has the right to represent themselves over here.<BR>
Lawyers are a convenience, not a necessity, strictly speaking.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:34:41 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Stealth, or low radar cross section just gives you a shorter range until<BR>
> > detection. Remember that received power for a radar is linear in RCS, but is<BR>
> > also proportional to 1/r^4, and that all you really care about is getting<BR>
> > enough received power from a target. If I can lock onto you way before you<BR>
> > can lock onto me, I win.<BR>
> <BR>
> But are you locked onto *me*, or one of the hunks of chaff I just threw<BR>
> out of the cockpit?<BR>
> <BR>
> Heck, it'd almost be a good idea for one of these old "kites" to drag a<BR>
> small radar corner behind it. Give the missile a target to lock onto.<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiosity, what is the radar cross-section of a wooden<BR>
rotating airfoil (a.k.a. "propeller")?  As a Journeyman Gearhead, I'd<BR>
like to know.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:27:32 +1000<BR>
From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:29:37   Daniel Phelps wrote:<BR>
>Was written:<BR>
><BR>
>>>Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
>>> guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I read a short story about just that situation (can't remember the authour... sorry). A jet fighter had fallen back in time to WW1. He had the same problem (no lock, too slow), so his solution was to fly supersonic past the byplanes and let the roiling air currents tear the biplanes to pieces.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:29:11 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
>> In any case where the outcome had any doubt, I'd say esprit du corps<BR>
would<BR>
>> be more important than tech level.<BR>
>At the very least, *intelligently* used low tech forces could tie up a<BR>
>*lot* of high tech forces.<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
    Snipers are a good example of that, no one like being shot at by the<BR>
boogy man. But here the US shows what a technology oriented military does,<BR>
it designs a gadget to fix the problem. Low TL troops can find Hi TL troops<BR>
just as much a nightmare, they see in the dark, detect your heartbeat or<BR>
your breath, make you sick, make you unhappy and thats just now.<BR>
    This is a good example of why it's so hard to extrapolate the TU, the<BR>
technology is so far past the 'event horizon' where everything changes and<BR>
all the bets are off. Maybe the TL15 troops don't go near the battlefield<BR>
and thier bot-drones do the killing?<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:31:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
>Consider the case of a nice fast jet fighter like the Air Force just<BR>
>*loves*. Put it up against a biplane. Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
>guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
>interesting because the *top* speed of the biplane is below the *stall*<BR>
>speed for the jet. And the biplane can turn a lot sharper.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that the biplane would be similarly unable to hurt the jet. Jet<BR>
wash from the passage of the fighters might be enough to break the wood and<BR>
cloth biplane.<BR>
<BR>
>But just consider the trouble that we had in VietName trying to deal<BR>
>with the VC. They weren't *stupid* enough to fight standup battles.<BR>
>They just kept digging away at vulnerable points, and finding ways to<BR>
>attack where our tech edge either didn't apply, or worked against us.<BR>
<BR>
Troubles in Viet Nam were politically caused. Our full tech capabilities<BR>
were not allowed to be utilized because of the political situation. (Do not<BR>
take this as an affirmation of U.S. Policy in Southeast Asia.)<BR>
<BR>
>Meson screens, and artillery are *useless* against an enemy who strips<BR>
>to his skivvies, slides into the camp at night, and uses our troops own<BR>
>knives to cut their throats in their sleep. And given either skill or<BR>
>favorable weather conditions, neither IR sensors nor motion detectors<BR>
>will help.<BR>
<BR>
Of course if you just nuke them from space or fire your meson guns from an<BR>
orbiting spacecraft then any TL below 7 is completely helpless against you.<BR>
Only Political motives would require that you land troops in the first<BR>
place. After all the K'Kree would just de-populate the planet and then send<BR>
their troops in. (Do not take this as an affirmation of the 2000 Worlds<BR>
policy of genocide.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:35:20 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/14/00 6:09:08 PM Central Standard Time, Jason T. <BR>
Barnabas writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at with<BR>
 stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world? >><BR>
<BR>
Our youthful good looks and naively charming ways? <g><BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:40:33 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
<BR>
>I read a short story about just that situation (can't remember the<BR>
authour... sorry). A jet fighter had fallen back in time to WW1. He had the<BR>
same problem (no lock, too slow), so his solution was to fly supersonic past<BR>
the byplanes and let the roiling air currents tear the biplanes to pieces.<BR>
<BR>
    His real problem would be getting the phenomenal back up a modern jet<BR>
fighter requires for more than six hours operation. That and a landing<BR>
field. and (etc)<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:02:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Mottoes/Nicknames<BR>
<BR>
>>I put "Follow Me!" in Star Mercs . . . unless it got cut by<BR>
>>the censor. . .  it was phrased thus: Official Motto if the <BR>
>>Imperial Army Infantry School: "Follow Me!"<BR>
>>Unofficial motto, ditto: "Have fun, sir!"></humor><BR>
<BR>
>I prefer "like Hell!"<BR>
<BR>
"Never happen, Sir!" (private's response to a lieutenant's order<BR>
to have a look around from an obviously exposed position; I<BR>
think it's from Chickenhawk, but it might be from The Things<BR>
They Carried or even Despatches)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:05:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies <BR>
<BR>
>Yet Ben Cisco's father owns and operates a restaurant in New Orleans.<BR>
>Private enterprise in a socialist state? Doesn't seem right somehow.<BR>
<BR>
When did you ever see anyone ***pay*** to eat there? The Federation doesn't<BR>
use money so how would you pay?<BR>
<BR>
I think the situation brings to mind a book about the first colonization<BR>
effort to another star. They send in vitro children who are raised along the<BR>
way by robots. When they get there they set up an economic system based on<BR>
the fact that energy and recourses are ***not*** limited. A second ship of<BR>
colonist follows several years later, with military to take over. They find<BR>
that it's not necessary for them to work for anything, but that they'll only<BR>
be respected if they can contribute something.  The children have been<BR>
raised to believe that they have a responsibility to society to find<BR>
something that they're good at and to do it, whether it is economically<BR>
useful or not. People do what they like to do, and only take what they need.<BR>
After all if you can live like the rich just by requisitioning what you want<BR>
without cost, the accumulation of stuff you don't use get old after awhile.<BR>
<BR>
The Federation economy seems to be like that. People work because they want<BR>
to. Cisco operates a restaurant because that's what he wants to do. He<BR>
doesn't need to operate a restaurant to make a living. People go to a<BR>
restaurant because they want the experience.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:20:34 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies <BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/14/00 9:08:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, carlino@home.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> When did you ever see anyone ***pay*** to eat there? The Federation doesn't<BR>
>  use money so how would you pay?<BR>
<BR>
Favorable reviews in your personal e-zine?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  I think the situation brings to mind a book about the first colonization<BR>
>  effort to another star. . .<BR>
<BR>
James P. Hogan's _Voyage From Yesteryear_.  The confrontations between<BR>
long-time colonists (who are used to living under a non-scarcity economy)<BR>
and the new colonists (from a pseudo-fascist regime) are very well-drawn.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1920<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1921</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 14 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1921<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re Tech-talk on Prop-jobs<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
RE: Imperial Law<BR>
Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics) Vearing OT<BR>
Re: New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
Marine Mottos<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1889<BR>
Re: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:26:32 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Welcome Back Bloo<BR>
<BR>
>"William F. Hostman" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Peter and I have whiled away many an evening (often to the wee hours of the<BR>
>> morning) on the topic of how the imperium operates in one or the other's<BR>
>> living room,<BR>
><BR>
>This is in the Boston area?<BR>
><BR>
>bloo<BR>
<BR>
Sadly, no. Try Anchorage, Alaska, USA, North America, Terra, Sol System,<BR>
Sol Subsector, Solomani Rim Sector, Domain of Sol, in what may eventually<BR>
become the 3rd Imperium. IMTU, home of the C class subsidiary port with the<BR>
scout base.<BR>
<BR>
But, if litigation brings you this way (it's brought lawyers from as far<BR>
away as London and Texas... London's actually close via the over the pole<BR>
route...), look me up. We'll find some fosters for me and something for<BR>
you, and discuss traveller till we turn bloo... <GD&R><BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:45:59 -0800<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:35:16, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I did try to make the military, especially the Marines, different from the<BR>
>American equivalents.<BR>
<BR>
WHAT?<BR>
<BR>
Mr. Berry, in my many years of being a Traveller fan, I have endured much.<BR>
I saw the Imperium killed by an assassin's bullet.  I saw the corpse<BR>
desecrated by psychotic silicon.  I have seen jump torpedoes, drop tanks,<BR>
near-C rocks, reactionless drives, HePLar, and even... <twitch> GURPS rules.<BR>
<BR>
But now... YOU would DARE to present us with a Traveller universe that<BR>
isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair      "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org       you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                     said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:46:20 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Tech-talk on Prop-jobs<BR>
<BR>
>Just out of curiosity, what is the radar cross-section of a wooden<BR>
>rotating airfoil (a.k.a. "propeller")?  As a Journeyman Gearhead, I'd<BR>
>like to know.<BR>
><BR>
Depends upon the wood, the radar  frequencies being used, the laquer &/or<BR>
paint &/or other surface tratment, the central humb design and materials,<BR>
the angles of the various surfaces, the angle of incedence.<BR>
<BR>
Essentially, the question is merely one of reflectivity and return rates;<BR>
at best it will be the 1/1^4 of the radar output; possibly far far less. At<BR>
any given point, you will have flux in signal, even if it is one of the<BR>
wire & fiberglass mesh surfaced ones that some bush pilots use... Maximal<BR>
will be dead on, IIRC, and then directly along the roational plane... all<BR>
others result in maximal scatter; but there will be sweet spots...<BR>
<BR>
And usually, the engine has a higher signature, from what I've read.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:02:27 -0600<BR>
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
Huhn? As a tanker in the '80's I lived in that danm grease paint. Was this<BR>
something that changed in those 20 years? I hated that fu*^%$#g paint far<BR>
worse than C-Rats or MRE's ... In the reserves the worst treatment was<BR>
reserved for officers that actually made us wear that sh*t.<BR>
<BR>
You could always tell the officers that came  up the ranks - they hated the<BR>
sh*t as much as we did...<BR>
<BR>
> The VC called any special warfare groups "devils with green faces", since<BR>
> they were the only troops who regularly wore camouflage face paint.<BR>
> - -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
> "Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"<BR>
> - - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.<BR>
<BR>
Cie la vie, I suppose...<BR>
<BR>
William<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis<BR>
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com<BR>
road and may God's blessing be with           |<BR>
you always.                                   |<BR>
St. Claire                                    |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:21:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>  >Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
><BR>
> Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month <BR>
> pre-mature...<BR>
<BR>
Try *two* months. It was a "well-known fact" that a new bride could do<BR>
in 7 months what took 9-months for other women.<BR>
<BR>
And the figures won't help much. Dates of conception got fudged when it<BR>
was possible. And a *lot* of families had a girl disappear for a<BR>
"prolonged illness" where she was cared for by distant relatives.<BR>
Sometimes she'd stay and become an "instant widow". Other times the<BR>
child would be raised by other relatives, with the story being that the<BR>
(married) mother had died in childbirth, and the father didn't want the<BR>
child because it reminded him of his late wife.<BR>
<BR>
There were a *lot* of dodges. And by all evidence (or so say folks<BR>
who've looked into it), the number of illegitimate births wasn't a lot<BR>
different than now. What's different is that *now* we acknowledge them.<BR>
<BR>
Much of the *actual* difference is that we have more women having<BR>
second, third, etc illegitimate children.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:31:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Jason T. Barnabas <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Date: 14 February 2000 19:22<BR>
> Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>Getting busted has nothing to do with criminality, even<BR>
>>convition often is unrelated to the question.  A good many<BR>
>>fine folks have be convicted of crimes for a simple lack of<BR>
>>effective defense.  These people are convicts, but not<BR>
>>actually criminals.<BR>
><BR>
>>Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
>>to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.  A right may<BR>
>>not be infringed nor regulated by legal code.  Yet, every state<BR>
>>that I have checked on has a "law" requiring drivers to be<BR>
>>licenced.<BR>
> -------------------------------------------<BR>
> And this infringes your right to travel how?<BR>
><BR>
> No one is saying that you cannot go where you want to go, only that to drive<BR>
> yourself there you need to be able to demonstate that you are capable of<BR>
> controlling 3/4 of a ton of metal moving at 55mph so as to not endanger<BR>
> either yourself or other road users. Now, you might respond "I don't need a<BR>
> license to demonstrate that, my ability is obvious."<BR>
><BR>
> I agree, in most circumstances you can clearly demonstrate an obvious<BR>
> ability eg driving in a straight line, coming to a slow stop, straight<BR>
> forward steering, etc. But the license demonstates you have achieve a<BR>
> measured, standardised competence in, among other things, emergency stops,<BR>
> awareness of other road users, rights of way etc... Oops, perhaps you feel<BR>
> that stop signs unconstitutionally infringe upon your inalienable *right* to<BR>
> blithely scythe your way through cross traffic <g>. Or that complying with<BR>
> the requirement of driving on the right (wierdos... <g>) infringes your<BR>
> *right* to *travel* at 100mph weaving erratically along the left-hand side<BR>
> of the freeway....<BR>
<BR>
More to the point, you are perfectly free to buy and drive a vehicle<BR>
without any sort of license. But you aren't allowed to do so on the<BR>
"public" (ie city/county/state/federal owned) roads. But you can do so<BR>
on *private* property as long as the owner doesn't object (which is why<BR>
so many kids get their first driving lessons in deserted parking lots<BR>
at shopping malls!).<BR>
<BR>
They *own* the roads, so they can set whatever limits they feel like on<BR>
using them. This violates no right. You have a right to travel. Not a<BR>
right to travel by an *specific* means.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, try that bit about "driver" means "paid driver" in court, and<BR>
you'll soon find out that the folks who have been feeding you this BS<BR>
*won't* be there to pay your fines. and the judge will *not* be amused.<BR>
<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
>>How do they get away with this?  The words used in law do<BR>
>>not always mean what they do in real life.  For example, in<BR>
>>most US jurisdictions, the word "driver" is defined legally as<BR>
>>someone who opperates a motor vehicle for profit.  So, if<BR>
>>you do not carry people or goods for profit, you are not a<BR>
>>driver (legally speaking).<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
> Legalism gone mad....<BR>
><BR>
> Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at with<BR>
> stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, he's mostly wrong. There are people who claim that the terms<BR>
have that sort of definition, and get a lot of folks to buy their<BR>
books, etc. But they don't have much success in court. <BR>
<BR>
Try making that claim about the meaning of "driver" and the judge will<BR>
tell you you are wrong. Keep arguing, and you'll do time for contempt<BR>
of court, *then* get to worry about the traffic violations.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:42:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> 4. SJG have not demonstrated willingness to abide by data protection<BR>
>> regulations in force outside the US and therefore it is currently<BR>
>> questionable whether it is permitted to provide personal copyright<BR>
>> information on submitted material that does not belong to you<BR>
>> personally, if submitted within the UK.<BR>
><BR>
> Say what?  That statement needs to be parsed down.<BR>
><BR>
> "SJG have not demonstrated willingness to abide by data protection<BR>
> regulations in force outside the US"<BR>
><BR>
> You want a US company to agree to international rules that don't<BR>
> apply to it?  Is that right?  And the data you want them to protect<BR>
> is the identity of a contributor?<BR>
<BR>
Believe it or not, the EU regulations actually require things that get<BR>
pretty weird. For example, one Email program had to have an option<BR>
added to *not* report the exact time of posting a message, because<BR>
having both the users name, and a time of posting violated German<BR>
privacy laws. <BR>
<BR>
It's more a case of if the US doesn't enact laws that meet certain<BR>
(rather more reasonable) minimums soon, then we will not be *allowed*<BR>
to exchange data with EU countries. Nor with anybody else with the same<BR>
sort of laws about protecting data about individuals. <BR>
<BR>
As with the German law above, these laws *can* go too far. On the other<BR>
hand, they make things like your utility company selling your name and<BR>
address as part of a mailing list database *completely* illegal.<BR>
<BR>
The US is *definitely* going to get slammed over this sort of thing.<BR>
And he may be quite right about SJG winding up in trouble. Which could<BR>
mean things like losing the non-US market. <BR>
<BR>
> "and therefore it is currently questionable whether it is permitted<BR>
> to provide personal copyright information on submitted material<BR>
> that does not belong to you personally, if submitted within the UK."<BR>
><BR>
> What is "personal copyright information"?  If its the author, then<BR>
> in many countries, yuo MUST provide it else you violate that<BR>
> author's right of attribution to the material he created.<BR>
<BR>
The example he gave was that he could not *legally* (under his nation's<BR>
laws) post a message containing a copyright notice for some third<BR>
person unless they had personally posted the material.<BR>
<BR>
An example: His roommate mentions an idea. A good one. He *can't* post<BR>
that idea under the current SJG rules without violating his country's<BR>
law. Because to preserve his roommate's right, the SJG agreement<BR>
requires a copyright notice. Which would have to contain his roommate's<BR>
name (because he can't legally post it with a copyright notice with<BR>
*his* name, because it isn't *his* idea). But he can't post that notice<BR>
without permission (and maybe not even then, I'm not sure what the<BR>
exact restrictions on disclosing info about a third party are).<BR>
<BR>
> You really need to break this concern down so that it makes<BR>
> sense.  You're leaving a lot of stuff unsaid and my psionic skill<BR>
> isn't strong enough to see whats in your head.<BR>
<BR>
He's actually quite clear. Your problem isn't lack of info in his post,<BR>
it's lack of info about data protection laws in the EU and elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
>> In other words, if your mate<BR>
>> tells you something, there is a possibility that you should NOT TELL<BR>
>> SJG his/her name to claim copyright. After March 1st, it will be<BR>
>> **illegal** to do so (pending changes in the US data protection<BR>
>> regulations), from anywhere within the EU.<BR>
><BR>
> "Telling" doesn't qualify for copyright protection.  It must be<BR>
> fixed in a tangible medium.  Taking a stab in the dark here,<BR>
> do you mean to say that if your mate wrote something, and<BR>
> you posted it to SJG's board, but you want to preserve the<BR>
> copyright to it, then you shouldn't put her name on it?<BR>
<BR>
Not should not. *Can* not. Not unless he wants to risk *huge* fines for<BR>
violating the data protection laws. He's not free to disclose another<BR>
person's name in a public message. Not without their permission. And I<BR>
bet the "permission" is legally a royal pain to get.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, cutting to the chase, it doesn't matter.  It is my _unofficial_<BR>
> opinion that adding "copyright reserved" to any post on SJG's<BR>
> board would be sufficient to preserve your copyright in the<BR>
> posted material.<BR>
<BR>
But in the case of an idea from his rooommate it is *illegally*<BR>
claiming that the idea is *his*, not hers. A copyright notice says that<BR>
*you* own the posted material. So any material that *isn't* yours needs<BR>
to be clearly marked as to *who* owns it. And he is trying to tell you<BR>
that he may not be *allowed* to do that by the data protection laws.<BR>
<BR>
>  (Why?  Because IMHO it meets the terms of<BR>
> the subscriber agreement.  Although it is doesn't meat the<BR>
> technical requirements of notice, notice isn't required for<BR>
> copyright to attach.  The "explicit notice" required by the<BR>
> SJG subscriber agreement is not further specified.).<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that to comply with the SJG agreement, he'd have to<BR>
violate laws where he lives. Laws that the SJG agreement does *not*<BR>
exempt him from.<BR>
<BR>
>> In a nutshell, SJG are attempting to foist national (US state)<BR>
>> agreements on international documents and publication.<BR>
><BR>
> Treaties to which the US is a party are incorporated into<BR>
> US law.  If you agree to the subscriber agreement, you agreed<BR>
> to accept US law.  Its a simple and standard arrangement.<BR>
<BR>
But as I note above, SJG *cannot* release him from the requirement that<BR>
his posts be legal WHERE HE LIVES. And the agreement requires him to do<BR>
things that are *illegal*.<BR>
<BR>
Silly example. If the SJG agreement required you to put in a line<BR>
stating "Kill the niggers", then *no one* from Canada could comply.<BR>
*Regardless* of the "choice of law" stuff in the SJG agreement, adding<BR>
that line would make their post "hate speech" under Canadian law. And<BR>
get them (and SJG) in a *world* of trouble.<BR>
<BR>
Some aspects of the SJG agreement are *just* as illegal in Europe. And<BR>
likewise, SJG *cannot* override those laws. No matter *what* they put<BR>
in the agreement.<BR>
<BR>
>> To add insult to<BR>
>> injury, they are also attempting to enforce implicit acceptance of US<BR>
>> laws by international contributors, which is explicilty forbidden by<BR>
>> international agreements to which the US is already a signatory.<BR>
><BR>
> Show me.  Are you not free to make contracts in your country?<BR>
> Are they making default property rules to which you cannot<BR>
> contract around?<BR>
<BR>
SJG *may* be able to stipulate that their local laws FOR CONTRACTS<BR>
apply. But the laws he is talking about are *not* contract law. They<BR>
are civil code and perhaps even criminal code. *NOT* commercial code.<BR>
<BR>
>> I did say some time ago on this thread, that international<BR>
>> contributors really should just ignore the copyright issue<BR>
><BR>
> Amen.  Just say "copyright reserved" on your posts and<BR>
> don't worry about it.  There isn't a there there.<BR>
<BR>
Again, it's not *legal* for him to do that under *his* country's laws<BR>
in some situations. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:41:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED Name Kurfuffles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Another player pointed out that "Phelps" seemed to be a very common surname <BR>
> in the Imperium. Just goes to show how you cna get into a name generation <BR>
> 'rut' sometimes.<BR>
<BR>
Just let the PCs find an audio recording and player somewhere. When<BR>
played it starts out:<BR>
<BR>
"Good morning, Mr. Phelps...."<BR>
<BR>
And the device and recording self-destruct after the recording is<BR>
played *once*.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know about *you*, but *I* wouldn't want to get involved in an<BR>
IMF case...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:21:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Imperial Law<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>That Imperial law applies to the "space between stars" is<BR>
>mentioned in several canon sources.  Now you could argue that <BR>
>jump space is not "between stars", in fact you can argue that <BR>
>an Imperial interdiction or other instrument does not apply to <BR>
>you for any reason you like.  But the Imperium has a simple <BR>
>answer to your arguments, if you have more firepower than they <BR>
>do, they'll accept your interpretation until their <BR>
>reinforcements arrive. If not, you will either accept their <BR>
>interpretation or you will cease to be.<BR>
><BR>
>Don't make the mistake of thinking that the rule of law in the <BR>
>Imperium is based upon anything other than brute force, or that<BR>
<BR>
>legal arguments hold any weight to a factor T meson gun.<BR>
<BR>
Legal arguments are, however, generally cheaper than commitments<BR>
of military force, and are therefore of considerable value even<BR>
in a system that does subordinate its rulers to the legal<BR>
system.  The Imperial judge to whom one is addressing the<BR>
argument that j-space is not between the stars will reject that<BR>
argument as follows:  Legal definitions are not the same as<BR>
physics definitions.  The "space between the stars" is defined<BR>
in the Imperial foundation documents and in the agreements<BR>
between the Imperium and its member states as jump space,<BR>
interstellar space (i.e., normal space some distance beyond the<BR>
orbit of the outermost planet of the member state's system), and<BR>
transit between starport and jump point and between jump point<BR>
and starport.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
"All political power comes out of the barrel of a gun."<BR>
Mao Zedong, Terran military and political leader, ca. -2500<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:21:00 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re:Surplus Economies (was robotics) Vearing OT<BR>
<BR>
>No, this doesn't explain why you don't just put the guts of a transporter<BR>
>inside your replicator rig, nor does it explain why a replicator can<BR>
>copy things but a transporter (usually, but certainly not always) can't.<BR>
I'm<BR>
>afraid I've used up my stock of Trekkie technobabble on the subject. :-)<BR>
><BR>
>Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
Based on technology explanations in the interactive tech manual (which is<BR>
based upon the writers guidelines) the limitation is the computer storage<BR>
capacity of the device. The transported uses a form of high capacity memory<BR>
(the pattern buffer), which is short term. After a few minutes the pattern<BR>
stored in the buffer under goes degradation.  This buffer records the object<BR>
to be transported on a quantum level (which is necessary to transport living<BR>
things, if you want them to keep living.)  Regular STNG tech computer memory<BR>
is not this dense. While the image is in the pattern buffer it can be<BR>
analyzed for pathogens. This is the so called "bio filter."<BR>
<BR>
There is a type of transporter (a cargo transporter) that records object on<BR>
a nuclear level. It can only transport non-living things. It is similar to a<BR>
replicator. Naturally this amount of information is much less. Small enough<BR>
that patterns can be stored for use in replicators.<BR>
<BR>
On the transformation of matter question: The original transported object is<BR>
scanned and converted to energy. This transported stream is kept together by<BR>
the containment field. When it gets where it's going it's reassembled. Some<BR>
amount of energy is always lost and is replaced by material from a reservoir<BR>
of non-differentiated matter from a storage tank. In the case of the<BR>
replicator the whole object is made from this material. The replicator can<BR>
be used in reverse and transform garbage and hazardous wastes to<BR>
non-differentiated matter for later use.<BR>
<BR>
Certain unstable (read that as radioactive) materials cannot be replicated<BR>
or transported.<BR>
<BR>
This has been way OT. So in the interest of ObTrav let me say: I hope that<BR>
the GT:Starships gives a good technical background for operation of ship<BR>
systems (though up to now I've made my own up, or used what I've stolen off<BR>
the web.)<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:22:31 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
<BR>
I like it.  Separating serious and silly filks sounds like a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> But first, a question. Many of the filks in The Silly Era's filk section<BR>
> are fairly serious. What would y'all think of a separate filk section to my<BR>
> pages, with a link from both Sylea DP and TSE?<BR>
> <BR>
> While you think about that, here's my latest creation. Based on one of my<BR>
> favorite CSN tunes (got to see the do it entirely acoustic a few years<BR>
> back.) Comments welcomed.<BR>
> <BR>
> Trin's Veil<BR>
> <BR>
> Original words and music: "Southern Cross" by Stephen Stills, Richard<BR>
> Curtis and Michael Curtis<BR>
> Parody by Douglas Berry<BR>
> <BR>
> Signed aboard a Far Trader heading Rimward<BR>
> Coming down from the Regina vicinity<BR>
> Carrying sixty-five tons of mixed cargo<BR>
> Bound for the up-port orbiting Treece<BR>
> <BR>
> Heading through Lanth just making some easy money<BR>
> But trying so hard just to run from all my yesterdays<BR>
> >From each stop I would send you some X-Mail<BR>
> But one night in jump I finally knew why we went astray<BR>
> <BR>
> Think about...<BR>
> <BR>
> Think about how many times the stars have called me onward<BR>
> New worlds I have to see, the old ones just discarded<BR>
> I pray you don't think of me as cold and empty-hearted...<BR>
> <BR>
> I have traveled 'round the Main<BR>
> Hoping - Hoping to break these chains<BR>
> Of the memories that still remain<BR>
> <BR>
> and someday I will<BR>
> <BR>
> When you see Trin's Veil for the first time<BR>
> You know just how small a man's dreams can be<BR>
> 'Cause you might be hurting now from my actions<BR>
> But tomorrow is a new day, you'll forget all about me<BR>
> <BR>
> So I'm leaving in the morning for the Outrim<BR>
> And my love for you will come along, no matter how hard I beg<BR>
> I have my ship and a cargo that needs to be lifted<BR>
> She is all that I have left, and Beowulf is her name<BR>
> <BR>
> Think about...<BR>
> <BR>
> Think about how many times the stars have called me onward<BR>
> New worlds I have to see, the old ones just discarded<BR>
> I pray you don't think of me as cold and empty-hearted...<BR>
> <BR>
> I have traveled 'round the Main<BR>
> Hoping - Hoping to break these chains<BR>
> Of the memories that still remain<BR>
> <BR>
> And you know I will<BR>
> <BR>
> And someday I will<BR>
> <BR>
> I have lived all my life wandering the starlanes<BR>
> And I've never had a home, for me it's just a word<BR>
> I just ask, please, look up at the night sky<BR>
> And know that I'm still out there, but I wish I was still with you<BR>
> <BR>
> Underneath Trin's Veil<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
> gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
> <BR>
> TravGeekCode:<BR>
> tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
> ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:34:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
<BR>
My name was developed before the advent of telephone technology,<BR>
which even at the end of the 20th Century still serves to muffle<BR>
if not actually garble speech.  So Goffin has come out in<BR>
telephone messages as Coffin, Koffin, Coffman, Koffmann,<BR>
Kaufmann, Gossin, Kossin, Dawson, Dalton, Dawston, and even<BR>
Dolphin and Dauphin.  I just spell it with an acronym most of<BR>
the time:  "It's Goffin, G 0 F F I N, that's Great Outstanding<BR>
Fine Fine Intelligent Nice -- and my middle initial is M, as in<BR>
Modest."<BR>
<BR>
In the Far Future, I think we'll all communicate a little like<BR>
the Hivers, with immediate electronic transfers of some<BR>
information to avoid ambiguity.  So if you and I are standing on<BR>
the street and I ask you to contact me later at a certain time<BR>
at a certain address (electronic or whatever), I'll transmit the<BR>
specifics to you in text form by some kind of electronic medium,<BR>
whether embedded in a business card or by radio or laser signal<BR>
from my date book to yours.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 19:36:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Marine Mottos<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: Marine Mottos<BR>
>IMTU (A New Era Setting) the RC Marines wear a cap badge with<BR>
>the motto Gibraltar on it.  Most marines don't know where this <BR>
>comes from but it is a treasured unit insignia.  Anyone on list<BR>
<BR>
>recognise it, the RC marines are based on this unit IMTU and <BR>
>most of their traditions are based on current/recent<BR>
traditions.<BR>
<BR>
When I first skimmed your post, I thought it was a picture of<BR>
Gibraltar, and I thought, "the Marines are descended from an<BR>
insurance company?"<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:41:52 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
On 14 Feb 00, at 21:02, William Barnett-Lewis wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Huhn? As a tanker in the '80's I lived in that danm grease paint. Was this<BR>
> something that changed in those 20 years? I hated that fu*^%$#g paint far<BR>
> worse than C-Rats or MRE's ... In the reserves the worst treatment was<BR>
> reserved for officers that actually made us wear that sh*t.<BR>
<BR>
They you wear that stuff in tanks? That shows a really poor confidence <BR>
in one's armour :)<BR>
<BR>
As a grunt I hated that stuff, too. Makes anybody come out in zits <BR>
inside 6 hours, and takes longer to get off than the actual field <BR>
exercise lasted, quite often. Ick.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:52:51 -0700<BR>
From: "samir" <samir@chisp.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1889<BR>
<BR>
sorry to bother the list, I seem to have lost the descriptions/stats of the<BR>
Plankton class ship and a couple of others, I am looking for around 5000<BR>
tonnage plus. I am wanting to use these fine ships in my tuesday night game,<BR>
can someone (anyone who has them handy) email them directly to me?<BR>
<BR>
Samir@chisp.net<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Samir<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:52:35 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Psionic variant<BR>
<BR>
:) Thanks, Ian.  Glad you liked the idea.  Piracy is the highest form of<BR>
flattery.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri: Interesting.  On tarot readings, I understand.  I now only do<BR>
readings for friends and a couple of my cats.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr  <BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Michael Maley writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >Furthermore take that futher, and have a sport called psinulls<BR>
> >(maybe 1-5% of the deadhead population) that not only are<BR>
> >incapable of psi activity but actively dampen psi powers like a<BR>
> >psionic black hole.  They had a rating like the psionic rating<BR>
> >which gave the radius of effect (1m radius from the psinull per<BR>
> >level)of psionic dampening.  It would take a psi with a power<BR>
> >rating higher than the psinull to use their psi abilities.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
>         I LIKE it <swipe><BR>
> <BR>
> :)<BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1921<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1922</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1922<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1906<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1912<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1909<BR>
Re: Welcome back Bloo <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1889<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: robot economics<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:00:19 +1300<BR>
From: "Gray, Raymond" <rjgray@kpmg.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
<BR>
I have picked up Pocket EMpires after an 18 month hiatus and have completed<BR>
my house rules set that discards the battle rules.  I want to use the<BR>
standard starship design rules for 'Emperors' to construct fleets of<BR>
individual ships etc, alas the rules contained in starships do not allow the<BR>
creation of large vessels.  Does anybody have a copy of Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
that they are willing to sell?<BR>
<BR>
Has anybody else attempted the crossover to normal starship combat/design<BR>
rules within PE?<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:45:45 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1906<BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel asks:<BR>
<BR>
<< How about the Subsidised merchant, the Gazelle, the SDB, the lab ship, and <BR>
 the "Happy Fun Ball" as well? >><BR>
<BR>
Anything is possible. Depends on how much it's gonna cost us to produce.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:45:52 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1912<BR>
<BR>
 Jason asks<BR>
<BR>
<< Is that German and pronounced Dye-trick or English and<BR>
 pronounced Dee-trick (or would that be Day-trick?)?  >><BR>
<BR>
_He_ spells it D-e-i- and pronounces it "Dee" <BR>
<BR>
But then Dave does not speak German, as far as I know. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:45:51 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1909<BR>
<BR>
 > This certainly makes sense. But in light of this, what is the basis for<BR>
 > these (anecdotal?) suits or threats of suits against GDW by <insert<BR>
 > appropriate villain> because they based game material upon an idea in a<BR>
 > particular work of fiction?<BR>
<BR>
No one on the TML ever threatened suit -- they merely said we had ripped of <BR>
something from some famous author. <BR>
<BR>
_PRE_ TML, back in the mid-80s, one disgruntled fan embarked on a campaign to <BR>
"turn us in" to every famous SF author he believed we had "ripped off." <BR>
Almost no one took him seriously, but a couple of agents called and asked to <BR>
see the material in question. Nothing ever came of any of it. <BR>
<BR>
We _were_ sued by TSR for alleged copyright infringement (the trademark suit <BR>
was dismissed when we changed the name from "Dangerous Dimensions" to <BR>
"Dangerous Journeys"). The case was settled out of court, and resulted (among <BR>
other things) in TSR buying all copies of the material in question, and all <BR>
intellectual properties associated with them. The check didn't bounce.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:56:37 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Welcome back Bloo <BR>
<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
> "Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Welcome back Bloo.  You've been gone way too long and<BR>
> > some of these guys have gotten a little out of hand without<BR>
> > your calming influence.  :-)<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Me? Calming?!  Mwahaha!<BR>
><BR>
>  Just wait until I get up to speed on the Imperial Law thread.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, no one can stir it up like you.  I'm looking forward to your<BR>
input.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:15:08 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1889<BR>
<BR>
samir wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> sorry to bother the list, I seem to have lost the descriptions/stats of the<BR>
> Plankton class ship and a couple of others, I am looking for around 5000<BR>
> tonnage plus. I am wanting to use these fine ships in my tuesday night game,<BR>
> can someone (anyone who has them handy) email them directly to me?<BR>
<BR>
While I don't recall any reference to a PLANKTON-class ship, I do have<BR>
on file several 5000+ dton ships for T4, designed under FF&S2 rules.  If<BR>
your game can use T4 ships, let me know, and I'll forward some designs<BR>
to you.<BR>
<BR>
I also have posted several T4 ship designs on my Web site (see my sig<BR>
file for the URL, then follow the link to my Traveller ship designs).  I<BR>
have five warship designs of >5000 dtons, ranging from TL-13 to TL-18.<BR>
<BR>
(BTW, for long-time TMLers, I apologize for not updating my site since<BR>
before the GeoCities flap last June.  I intend to post some new designs<BR>
there within the next few weeks.  I'll let the list know when I have<BR>
them posted.)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:20:38 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > My understanding of ST's replicator technology is that it<BR>
> > cannot create matter, but only rearrange what it has<BR>
> > available.<BR>
><BR>
> That is *not* at all clear from the TV episodes. In fact, if anything,<BR>
> I get the impression that they *can* easily transmute elements.<BR>
<BR>
Transmutation of elements is not creation of matter.  And<BR>
which episode(s) gave you this impression?<BR>
<BR>
> > In one of the novels in order to get sufficient CHON<BR>
> > for a large replication project they had to pick up a great deal<BR>
> > of matter from an Oort Cloud snowball.<BR>
><BR>
> The novels aren't "official".<BR>
<BR>
According to whom?<BR>
<BR>
> > According to several<BR>
> > episodes of TNG and Voyager, there are some complex<BR>
> > substances that cannot be replicated correctly.<BR>
><BR>
> That I too recall. But transmutation is actually *easier* than<BR>
> duplicating molecular structures.<BR>
><BR>
> >  In fact, the<BR>
> > stuff that comes out of a replicator is not in fact an exact<BR>
> > duplicate of a crepe suzette, it's just close enough to fool the<BR>
> > palette and provide nutrition.  I also understand that a true<BR>
> > connoisseur will find the output of a replicator disgusting.  So<BR>
> > that in the final analysis, the replicator is just a fancy high<BR>
> > tech version of MREs.<BR>
><BR>
> Maybe, maybe not.<BR>
><BR>
> > Even from ST:OS we know that complex things like blood cannot be<BR>
> > replicated, at least not blood that would be usable as blood was<BR>
> > intended to be use by the body.<BR>
><BR>
> ST:TOS did not *have* replicators. Period.<BR>
><BR>
> Best evidence is in "The Trouble with Tribbles" where the *food<BR>
> dispensers* disgorge plates and cups with tribbles in them instead of<BR>
> food. The tribbles got into the automated food processing gear and eat<BR>
> the food before it got dumped on the trays.<BR>
><BR>
> With replicators, that wouldn't be *possible*.<BR>
<BR>
That's true; however as someone else has noted, ST is<BR>
well known for altering the tech for the greatest dramatic<BR>
effect.  If TOS had no replicators, then why did they stick data<BR>
sticks into the machinery when they needed something<BR>
special?  If those things weren't data sticks, then what were<BR>
they and why were the inserted?<BR>
<BR>
> > ST has also had some trouble keeping to its cannon.  In<BR>
> > some episodes, we are lead to believe that everyone has<BR>
> > everything they want, and yet we see Quark trying to get as<BR>
> > much pressed latinum (especially gold pressed latinum)<BR>
> > wherever, whenever and however he can.  It must be good<BR>
> > for something, or he wouldn't work so hard for it.<BR>
><BR>
> Simple. *His* culture (and many others) has a market economy. Earth<BR>
> doesn't.<BR>
<BR>
How do you explain Jake Sisco's dad's restaurant?  Mr. Sisco<BR>
charges for meals.<BR>
<BR>
> > However, there are planets in the Federation where things<BR>
> > are not so easy.  Witness the characters Yeoman Rand (OS)<BR>
> > and Tasha Yar (TNG) who came from such similar<BR>
> > backgrounds and yet are separated by what a century or<BR>
> > more?<BR>
><BR>
> Again, you are using books as evidence, since the TV episodes and<BR>
> movies do *not* tell us *anything* about Yeoman Rand's background.<BR>
> This is a bad habit.<BR>
<BR>
It has been a very long time since I have seen any of TOS.<BR>
<BR>
But IIRC in one of the earliest episodes there is some<BR>
mention of her background.  I also seem to recall<BR>
something from the episode where they find the planet with<BR>
children only.<BR>
<BR>
Besides you still haven't told me who says the books aren't<BR>
"official."<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:22:27 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
> It is true that in many such cases the police will not prosecute,<BR>
> unless the dealer makes a habit of it, but it is technically a<BR>
> crime to recieve stolen goods irrespective of whether you are<BR>
> aware that you are doing so.<BR>
><BR>
> Ignorance is never a defence.<BR>
<BR>
While it is true that ignorance is no defense, intent is.  If you<BR>
believe that the goods you receive are offered by someone<BR>
who has the lawful right to offer them, then you have not<BR>
intentionally received stolen goods and most legal systems will<BR>
see the distinction if it is made in a timely manner.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
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- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:30:16 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
>Besides you still haven't told me who says the books aren't<BR>
>"official."<BR>
>--<BR>
>Jason<BR>
<BR>
    Are you guys *really* arguing Star Trek *continuity* ?<BR>
    Jim (Star Trek hater)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:46:24 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: robot economics<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> >>Wow, MCr 1.2 for a robot. Maybe paying a pilot, navigator, and<BR>
> >>sensor operator is more economical?<BR>
> >You can not simply compare the costs of the robot itself<BR>
> >to the _salary_ of the crew they replace. You need to<BR>
> >look at the total opportunity cost of ownership.<BR>
> >A flesh & blood crew member requires a stateroom while a robot<BR>
> >does not.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >The Cr 130,00 you have just made more than pays for your<BR>
> >robot without even considering the savings on crew salary.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
>=20<BR>
> There are a number of variables that have not been specified.<BR>
> What is the typical financing on a robot?=20<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, most banks will not finance robots per se.  Most of the=20<BR>
manufacturers of robots; however, will.  If an operator=20<BR>
designs a ship that incorporates robots, most banks "won't=20<BR>
notice" that they are financing robots provided they are not a=20<BR>
major portion of the cost and are fully insured.  Strangely,=20<BR>
such designs rarely get the preferred rate, typically paying=20<BR>
anywhere from 0.25% to 5% more because of their inclusion.<BR>
<BR>
3D    Interest<BR>
 5- Preferred<BR>
 6  Preferred + 0.25%<BR>
 7  Preferred + 0.50%<BR>
 8  Preferred + 0.75%<BR>
 9  Preferred + 1.00%<BR>
10  Preferred + 1.25%<BR>
11  Preferred + 1.50%<BR>
12  Preferred + 1.75%<BR>
13  Preferred + 2.00%<BR>
14  Preferred + 2.50%<BR>
15  Preferred + 3.00%<BR>
16  Preferred + 3.50%<BR>
17  Preferred + 4.00%<BR>
18  Preferred + 5.00%<BR>
19  Preferred + 6.00%<BR>
20+ Preferred + 7.50%<BR>
<BR>
As long as I'm on the topic, IMTU, the Prime Rate ranges=20<BR>
from 3.5% to 5.5% ((4D + 31) / 10) and banks generally=20<BR>
make preferred rate loans (capital loans) at c. 1% over=20<BR>
prime.  Most economies tend to be fairly stable.  The prime=20<BR>
generally remains fairly close to 4.5%.<BR>
<BR>
Typical Preferred Rate loans (capital loans, like for=20<BR>
commercial space craft and industrial machinery), will be=20<BR>
from 0.5% to 1.5% ((4D + 6) / 20) over Prime.  This roll, like=20<BR>
that for the additional adjustment discussed earlier are=20<BR>
modified by Broker skill or 1/3 Administration skill.<BR>
<BR>
> How long does the<BR>
> typical robot last? =20<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, things are built to last.  With proper maintenance, a=20<BR>
high tech=20<BR>
robot will last millennia.  This is one of the reasons that=20<BR>
people don't like having them around.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, there are several Historical Societies that commission=20<BR>
robots to collect history for the future.  They travel from world=20<BR>
to world observing the normal everyday things that don't get=20<BR>
recorded in the normal everyday recordings of most=20<BR>
societies.  They don't stay more than a few years at a time so=20<BR>
they don't attract too much attention.  Every decade or so=20<BR>
they return to the Historical Society that commissioned them=20<BR>
and update their permanent memory store.  This memory=20<BR>
store is similar to a Heechee "fan."  One is capable of=20<BR>
storing one personality and several millennia of observations=20<BR>
(the exact upper limit is not known).<BR>
<BR>
This same technology can be used to transfer a personality=20<BR>
from an organic body to a robotic one* (rarely done) or from=20<BR>
an old body to a clone**.  This same technology can even be=20<BR>
used to hijack a body***; however, this is usually a capital=20<BR>
crime. =20<BR>
<BR>
  * If transferring to a duotronic brain, the personality is often=20<BR>
    damaged in the process.  Even a positronic brain carries=20<BR>
    some chance for damage to the personality being=20<BR>
    transferred.<BR>
<BR>
 ** There is almost no chance for damage when transferring=20<BR>
    to a properly cultured clone.<BR>
<BR>
*** Similar chances for damage exist when hijacking a body=20<BR>
    (alien ~ duotronic and same species ~ positronic).<BR>
<BR>
> How much upkeep and maintenance does it<BR>
> require?<BR>
<BR>
About the same as a vehicle of a similar size and complexity.<BR>
<BR>
> It may be fair to require some tonnage allotment to<BR>
> a robot, perhaps from cargo (specialized tools, parts, recharge<BR>
> equipment, storage).=20<BR>
<BR>
Again, about the same as a vehicle.  If many robots are=20<BR>
included in a ship's complement, they can be stored in=20<BR>
minimal "hangers" (2xVol).  Since they don't need to sleep=20<BR>
and usually don't need to be "hangered" most of the time,=20<BR>
one "maintenance hanger" that is 4x the volume of the largest=20<BR>
robot (plus space for the tools, parts, etc.) is all that is=20<BR>
absolutely required.  If you have an electronics shop and a=20<BR>
machine shop, then you need nothing else.  The electronic=20<BR>
workshop is used for their electronic components, then the=20<BR>
robot is moved into the machine shop to do diagnostics and=20<BR>
repairs on the mechanical components.  A specialized=20<BR>
Robotic Shop can be incorporated into a design.  A Robotic=20<BR>
Shop takes up 105 m^3 (7.5 Td), masses 75 tonnes, uses=20<BR>
0.75 Mw of power and costs 1.0 MCr.  Of course, you don't=20<BR>
really have to have a workshop for them, everything you=20<BR>
might need to do to them in the way of maintenance can be=20<BR>
handled with an electronic and a mechanical tool set. =20<BR>
Android robots also require the use of a "disguise kit" to=20<BR>
keep their appearance completely human (or alien, as the=20<BR>
case may be).  Some of the robot manufacturers offer a=20<BR>
"specialized" Robotic Tool Set for c. 2,000 Cr. plus 100 Cr.=20<BR>
per tech level.  Robot Tool Sets mass c. 25 kg and become=20<BR>
available at c. TL 7.  About the only advantage that a Robotic=20<BR>
Tool Set offers over the others two variety combined is that=20<BR>
they come in one case instead of two.  Automatons are also=20<BR>
available at TL 7.  Onboard computers are available at TL8. =20<BR>
Improved robotic computers become available at TL 9. =20<BR>
Crude robotic "brains" (duotronic) become available at TL=20<BR>
10 and are improved at TL11.  At TL 12 positronic brains=20<BR>
become available.  These offer a very limited form of AI. =20<BR>
Improvements continue up to about TL 15 where positronic=20<BR>
brains are the ultimate in cybernetic devices.<BR>
<BR>
By custom, all independent robots are required to=20<BR>
incorporate at least the first and second of Dr. Asimov's laws=20<BR>
of robotics.  If you know where to look IMTU, you will find=20<BR>
planets inhabited by robots exclusively.  Every member of=20<BR>
these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.<BR>
<BR>
> This may be a stretch, but it would be<BR>
> nice to have some sort of limit on how many robots you can<BR>
> carry (perhaps just a limit of 1 per stateroom, or up to 8 in<BR>
> an unoccupied stateroom).<BR>
<BR>
Depending upon design, that seems a little excessive. =20<BR>
Besides, what is a robot going to use all that space for? =20<BR>
And, why would it need the amenities that a human might?<BR>
<BR>
> Just to throw out some numbers, what if the compact, high-<BR>
> performance systems in a robot become unreliable after 10<BR>
> years (this might lead to "good deals" on some twitchy old<BR>
> units, purchased from some small aliens that have glowing<BR>
> eyes and wear brown hooded robes :)).  Perhaps the typical<BR>
> payment plan would last 5 years: with a 20% down payment on<BR>
> MCr 1.2 (which amounts to more than 6.5 years of a steward's<BR>
> salary, IIRC), even without any interest it would require<BR>
> annual payments of Cr 192,000.  Add to this the interest on<BR>
> the loan and maintenance costs, then spread the costs over<BR>
> the projected 10-year life of the robot (assuming it is not<BR>
> stolen or destroyed), and my WAG would be at least<BR>
> Cr 150,000 per year.<BR>
>=20<BR>
> Interestingly enough, your Cr 130,000 per year for the<BR>
> liberated stateroom plus the cash saved on steward's salary<BR>
> comes to a very similar figure.  Obviously, this depends very<BR>
> much on the assumptions regarding robot durability, etc., but<BR>
> with the appropriate choice of limitations, human crews may<BR>
> continue to be economically feasable.<BR>
>=20<BR>
> Now, perhaps someone with more sense than I will correct all<BR>
> the errors that I have no doubt made :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=3DBMM-972=20<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=<BR>
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++) =<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)=20<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
=A9 2000  by Jason Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF7734.F09A1DE0<BR>
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<BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>From: Ian Ferguson &lt;<A=20<BR>
href=3D"mailto:ian@vax2.concordia.ca">ian@vax2.concordia.ca&gt;</DIV>=<BR>
</DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
</DIV><DIV>&gt; Peter Newman writes:<BR>
&gt; &gt;&gt;Wow, MCr 1.2 for a robot. =Maybe=20paying a pilot, navigator, and<BR>
&gt; &gt;&gt;sensor operator is more=20economical?<BR>
&gt; &gt;You can not simply compare the costs of the =robot=20itself<BR>
&gt; &gt;to the _salary_ of the crew they replace. You need =to<BR>
&gt;=20&gt;look at the total opportunity cost of ownership.<BR>
&gt; &gt;A flesh =&amp;=20blood crew member requires a stateroom while a robot<BR>
&gt; &gt;does=20not.<BR>
&gt; &lt;snipped&gt;<BR>
&gt; &gt;The Cr 130,00 you have just = made more=20 than pays for your<BR>
&gt; &gt;robot without even considering the =savings on=20crew salary.<BR>
&gt; &lt;snipped&gt;<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; There are a number =of=20variables that have not been specified.<BR>
&gt; What is the typical =financing on=20a robot?&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>IMTU, most banks will not finance robots per se.&nbsp; Most of the =</DIV><DIV>manufacturers of robots; however, will.&nbsp; If an operator </DIV><DIV>designs a ship that incorporates robots, most banks "won't </DIV><DIV>notice" that they are financing robots provided they are not a =</DIV><DIV>major portion of the cost and are fully insured.&nbsp; Strangely, =</DIV><DIV>such designs rarely get the preferred rate, typically paying </DIV><DIV>anywhere from 0.25% to 5% more because of their inclusion.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>3D&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =Interest</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;5- Preferred</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;6&nbsp; Preferred + =0.25%</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;7&nbsp; Preferred + =0.50%</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;8&nbsp; Preferred + =0.75%</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;9&nbsp; Preferred + =1.00%</DIV><DIV>10&nbsp; Preferred + 1.25%</DIV><DIV>11&nbsp; Preferred + 1.50%</DIV><DIV>12&nbsp; Preferred + 1.75%</DIV><DIV>13&nbsp; Preferred + 2.00%</DIV><DIV>14&nbsp; Preferred + 2.50%</DIV><DIV>15&nbsp; Preferred + 3.00%</DIV><DIV>16&nbsp; Preferred&nbsp;+ =3.50%</DIV><DIV>17&nbsp; Preferred&nbsp;+ =4.00%</DIV><DIV>18&nbsp; Preferred + 5.00%</DIV><DIV>19&nbsp; Preferred + 6.00%</DIV><DIV>20+ Preferred + 7.50%</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>As long as I'm on the topic, IMTU, the Prime Rate ranges </DIV><DIV>from 3.5% to 5.5% ((4D + 31) / 10) and banks&nbsp;generally </DIV><DIV>make preferred rate loans (capital loans) at c. 1% over </DIV><DIV>prime.&nbsp; Most economies&nbsp;tend to be fairly stable.&nbsp; =The prime=20</DIV><DIV>generally remains fairly close to 4.5%.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Typical&nbsp;Preferred Rate loans (capital loans, like for </DIV><DIV>commercial space craft and industrial machinery), will&nbsp;be =</DIV><DIV>from 0.5% to 1.5% ((4D + 6) / 20) over Prime.&nbsp; This roll, like =</DIV><DIV>that for the additional adjustment discussed earlier =are&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>modified by Broker skill or 1/3 Administration skill.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&gt;&nbsp;How long does the<BR>
&gt; typical robot last?&nbsp; =</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>IMTU, things are built to last.&nbsp; With proper maintenance, a =</DIV><DIV>high tech </DIV><DIV>robot will last millennia.&nbsp; This is one of the reasons that =</DIV><DIV>people don't like having them around.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>IMTU, there are several Historical Societies that commission </DIV><DIV>robots to collect history for the future.&nbsp; They travel from =world=20</DIV><DIV>to world observing the normal everyday things that don't get </DIV><DIV>recorded in the normal everyday recordings of most </DIV><DIV>societies.&nbsp; They don't stay more than&nbsp;a few years at a =time so=20</DIV><DIV>they don't attract too much attention.&nbsp; Every decade or so =</DIV><DIV>they return to the Historical Society that commissioned them </DIV><DIV>and update their permanent memory store.&nbsp; This memory </DIV><DIV>store is similar to a Heechee "fan."&nbsp; One is capable of </DIV><DIV>storing one personality and several millennia of observations =</DIV><DIV>(the exact upper limit is not known).</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>This same technology&nbsp;can be used to transfer a personality =</DIV><DIV>from an organic body to a robotic one* (rarely done) or from </DIV><DIV>an old body to a clone**.&nbsp; This same technology can even be =</DIV><DIV>used to hijack a body***; however, this is usually a capital </DIV><DIV>crime.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;* If transferring to a duotronic brain, the personality =is=20often </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; damaged in the process.&nbsp; Even a positronic =brain=20carries </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; some chance for damage to the personality being =</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; transferred.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;** There is almost no chance for damage when transferring =</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to a properly cultured clone.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>*** Similar chances for damage exist when hijacking a body </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (alien ~ duotronic and same species ~ =positronic).</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&gt; How much upkeep and maintenance does it<BR>
&gt; require?</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>About the same as a vehicle of a similar size and complexity.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&gt;&nbsp;It may be fair to require some tonnage allotment =to<BR>
&gt; a=20robot, perhaps from cargo (specialized tools, parts, recharge<BR>
&gt; =equipment,=20storage).&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Again, about the same as a vehicle.&nbsp; If many robots are </DIV><DIV>included in a ship's complement, they can be stored in </DIV><DIV>minimal "hangers" (2xVol).&nbsp; Since they don't need to sleep =</DIV><DIV>and usually don't need to be "hangered" most of the =time,&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>one "maintenance hanger" that is 4x the volume of the largest =</DIV><DIV>robot (plus space for the tools, parts, etc.) is all that is </DIV><DIV>absolutely required.&nbsp; If you have an electronics shop and a =</DIV><DIV>machine shop, then you need nothing else.&nbsp; The electronic =</DIV><DIV>workshop is used for their electronic components, then the </DIV><DIV>robot is moved&nbsp;into the machine shop to&nbsp;do diagnostics =and </DIV><DIV>repairs on the mechanical components.&nbsp; A specialized </DIV><DIV>Robotic Shop can be incorporated into a design.&nbsp; A Robotic =</DIV><DIV>Shop takes up 105 m^3 (7.5 Td), masses 75 tonnes, uses </DIV><DIV>0.75 Mw of power and costs 1.0 MCr.&nbsp; Of course, you don't =</DIV><DIV>really have to have a workshop for them, everything you </DIV><DIV>might need to do to them in the way of maintenance can be </DIV><DIV>handled with an electronic and a mechanical tool set.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>Android robots also require the use of a "disguise kit" to </DIV><DIV>keep their appearance completely human (or alien, as the </DIV><DIV>case may be).&nbsp; Some of the robot manufacturers offer a </DIV><DIV>"specialized" Robotic Tool Set for c. 2,000 Cr. plus 100 Cr. </DIV><DIV>per tech level.&nbsp; Robot Tool Sets mass c. 25 kg and become =</DIV><DIV>available at c. TL 7.&nbsp; About the only advantage that a Robotic =</DIV><DIV>Tool Set offers over&nbsp;the others two variety combined =is&nbsp;that=20</DIV><DIV>they come in one case instead of two.&nbsp; Automatons are also =</DIV><DIV>available at TL 7.&nbsp; Onboard computers are available at =TL8.&nbsp;=20</DIV><DIV>Improved robotic computers become available at TL 9.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>Crude robotic "brains" (duotronic) become available at TL </DIV><DIV>10 and are improved at TL11.&nbsp; At TL 12 positronic brains =</DIV><DIV>become available.&nbsp; These offer a very limited form of =AI.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>Improvements continue up to about TL 15 where positronic </DIV><DIV>brains are the ultimate in cybernetic devices.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>By custom, all independent robots are required to </DIV><DIV>incorporate at least the first&nbsp;and second of&nbsp;Dr.=20Asimov's&nbsp;laws </DIV><DIV>of robotics.&nbsp; If you know where to look IMTU, you will find =</DIV><DIV>planets inhabited by robots exclusively.&nbsp; Every member of =</DIV><DIV>these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&gt;&nbsp;This may be a stretch, but it would be<BR>
&gt; nice to =have some=20sort of limit on how many robots you can<BR>
&gt; carry (perhaps just a =limit of=201 per stateroom, or up to 8 in<BR>
&gt; an unoccupied stateroom).</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Depending upon design, that seems a little excessive.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>Besides, what is a robot going to use all that space for?&nbsp; =</DIV><DIV>And, why would it need the amenities that a human =might?<BR>
<BR>
&gt; Just=20to throw out some numbers, what if the compact, high-<BR>
&gt; =performance=20systems in a robot become unreliable after 10<BR>
&gt; years (this might =lead to=20"good deals" on some twitchy old<BR>
&gt; units, purchased from some =small aliens=20that have glowing<BR>
&gt; eyes and wear brown hooded robes :)).&nbsp; =Perhaps=20the typical<BR>
&gt; payment plan would last 5 years: with a 20% down =payment=20on<BR>
&gt; MCr 1.2 (which amounts to more than 6.5 years of a =steward's<BR>
&gt;=20salary, IIRC), even without any interest it would require<BR>
&gt; annual =payments of Cr 192,000.&nbsp; Add to this the interest on<BR>
&gt; the =loan and=20maintenance costs, then spread the costs over<BR>
&gt; the projected =10-year life=20of the robot (assuming it is not<BR>
&gt; stolen or destroyed), and my =WAG would=20be at least<BR>
&gt; Cr 150,000 per year.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Interestingly =enough,=20your Cr 130,000 per year for the<BR>
&gt; liberated stateroom plus the =cash saved=20on steward's salary<BR>
&gt; comes to a very similar figure.&nbsp; =Obviously,=20this depends very<BR>
&gt; much on the assumptions regarding robot =durability,=20etc., but<BR>
&gt; with the appropriate choice of limitations, human =crews=20may<BR>
&gt; continue to be economically feasable.<BR>
&gt; <BR>
&gt; Now, =perhaps=20someone with more sense than I will correct all<BR>
&gt; the errors that =I have=20no doubt made :)<BR>
</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>--<BR>
Jason</DIV><DIV>______________________________________________<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= The=20rules have changed...&nbsp; Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
<A=20href=3D"http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=3DBMM-972">http://www.=alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=3DBMM-972=20<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited=20you.<BR>
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF==AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF<=BR>-----BEGIN GEEK CODE=20BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+&gt;++:&nbsp; a &gt;- C++$ U? =P+ L? E?=20W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++) PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ =DI++++ D=20G e~++ h r y+(-) <BR>
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------</DIV><DIV>=A9 2000&nbsp; by Jason Barnabas</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF7734.F09A1DE0--<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1923<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Ethiopia, Cipatwe (was Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri)<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re ST [ot]<BR>
RE: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:31:30 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Ethiopia, Cipatwe (was Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Meals Rejected by Eneri<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>> I used to drive by an Ethiopean resturant in San Jose every<BR>
>>day, and I always wondered what the hell they served?<BR>
>Whenever I go downtown (Sacramento), I usually walk past an <BR>
>Ethiopian restaurant and while I didn't recognize any of the <BR>
>items on the menu (posted outside) the smells coming out are <BR>
>quite inviting.  One of these days I'm going to stop in there <BR>
>for lunch and find out.<BR>
<BR>
Ethiopia ... Ethiooopia ... Eethiioopia ....<BR>
<BR>
We're way gone from Cipatwe, sophs, way gone, planetfall at<BR>
Esalin just after the war, psi helmets all around paranoid as<BR>
you please and the cargo, of course, makes this worse: Imperial<BR>
and colonial military KIAs and MIAs found in the field by the<BR>
Joes.  No, the cargo is actually even worse: half of the body<BR>
bags are only half bodies, the other half being miscellaneous<BR>
plastic explosives and padded bags of weapons to be transhipped<BR>
to the ever popular and ever resurgent Ine Givar, from whom<BR>
we've accepted a tasty sum to do the deed, but we also spilled<BR>
to INI that we should be arrested when we make planetfall at<BR>
Jewell just to take the heat off us and of course we turned over<BR>
some but not all of the Ine Givar's cold hard to His Imperial<BR>
Maj -- and only the skipper and I actually know all of this,<BR>
everyone else thinking it's just the dead in their beds this<BR>
trip.  Get it?<BR>
<BR>
So the skipper is going to make sure that the bags get through<BR>
extrality without undue delay and plans to spend as much IGch as<BR>
necessary but I don't want to be around if it all goes thermal<BR>
so I take Grafroughz'rr into what passes for a startown to hold<BR>
hands with our IG contact until someone from the ship beeps us<BR>
to come back.  "I tzink it'z eartzkvake vether," I hear as I<BR>
start into my first beer, and respond with the code phrase, "no,<BR>
earthquake weather is warm; today is cold."  I turn to see Graf<BR>
obviously sniffing an obvious Sworld Worlds Von and half expect<BR>
a heel click and raised fist, but he just extends his hand<BR>
Imperial or Solomani style and I shake it.  "Count Hugo von<BR>
Ruhrsache at your service," he says, quietly but crisply.<BR>
<BR>
"Ruhrsache? Forgive me; I haven't heard of it," I say, running<BR>
Gram manor names in my head.  "It'z in Europa, on Terra," Hugo<BR>
replies, and the game is suddenly more complicated with a<BR>
probable SolSec way gone from home but Graf suggests real grubs<BR>
while we wait and we start talking food as we leave the bar to<BR>
look for a restaurant and Hugo mentions the similarities between<BR>
Cipatwean and Ethiopian cuisine.  That's a button all right and<BR>
I'm wishing the skip were here to enjoy but he's not and worse<BR>
yet there is an actual Ethiopian joint up and standing in what<BR>
used to be Bernie's deli before a Zho tank attack levelled the<BR>
rest of the block and no one knows what happened to Bernie but<BR>
now here are colonists from an Imperial world I've never heard<BR>
of in the Solomani Rim trying to bring ancient Terran cuisine to<BR>
the Spinward Marches and I wonder if their ancestors settled<BR>
Cipatwe a long time ago.<BR>
<BR>
First up is beer, of course, thick and dark and Graf is pretty<BR>
happy with that, after they give him a bowl so he doesn't have<BR>
to deal with snout/bottle interface issues.  Then comes some<BR>
spongy thick pancake stuff called nanja or something.  It lines<BR>
a huge plate, which covers the whole little table.  Not much<BR>
flavor but obviously it's to mellow the spices just like the<BR>
Cipatweans use flatbread and stickywicky.  It's also carbos,<BR>
which we need.  Protein is meat or more likely<BR>
soyatofusynthestuff with meat flavors but yumzer we like em all<BR>
- -- synthechicken and soyabeef and tofulamb and some of it might<BR>
actually be meat from a groat or pachyceph.  Waitress just glops<BR>
it onto our nanja and we tear off pieces of nanja and scoop up<BR>
the meat and then some vegetables arrive for the same treatment<BR>
and of course more beer, which we really need because spice!<BR>
it's hot stuff and Graf is ecstatic in that way Vargr can be<BR>
with new flavors and tastes and is flirting with the human<BR>
waitress in a bizarre Vargr way that she's probably not aware of<BR>
and Hugo is not a dainty and fussy type, Sandoro suit and Lablen<BR>
leather loafers notwithstanding.  <BR>
<BR>
No, Hugo is digging right in and telling me about how wonderful<BR>
the food is on Terra, the homeworld, where we really invented<BR>
cooking, and the shugili cult and all is interesting but it's<BR>
just technical, only on Terra can we reach an appreciation of<BR>
our true aesthetic sensibilities or some such groatbull but even<BR>
Graf is saying, yes, we Vargr should make pilgrimages to Terra,<BR>
too, it's our ancestral home as well, and they're getting on way<BR>
too famously and about six more of those dark, thick, creamy<BR>
beers later -- which are not like any beer I've had on Esalin,<BR>
actually -- we're ready for coffee and sweets but our<BR>
throatcomms vibrate and we get the code:  all clear for take off<BR>
let's blast so we say our goodbyes and Hugo has gotten a like<BR>
message we suppose because he's a little distracted as Graf and<BR>
I flag down a gogogo and it putputput to the starport, clear the<BR>
extrality line and off to the ship.  Damn I wish I hadn't taken<BR>
that alcohol neutralizer I could be drunk and sleeping all the<BR>
way to jump point.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:54:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
><BR>
> Kagehira@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Not necessarily. I know someone who unknowingly purchased<BR>
> stolen goods and<BR>
> > got busted. From then on he made all sellers sign a statement<BR>
> saying that the<BR>
> > goods were there's to sell.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Bryan<BR>
><BR>
> What does "bust" mean?  He was arrested?  Was he convicted?<BR>
> Totally different situations.<BR>
><BR>
> And knowldge need not be actual.  "Constructive knowledge", i.e.,<BR>
> "you should have known", is good enough.<BR>
<BR>
In a case here in New Zealand, the purchaser of a car, who purchased it from<BR>
a Licensed Motor Vehicle Dealer, with paperwork issued by the State which<BR>
'proved' the dealer's ownership of the car (in other words, there was no<BR>
reasonable way he could have known, suoposedly reputable dealer, 'correct'<BR>
paperwork, etc.) was charged with recieving stolen goods when<BR>
the real owner of the  car saw it parked out side the purchaser's house and<BR>
told the police.<BR>
<BR>
In this case, after a public outcry (and television program) , the police<BR>
withdrew the charges, but they seemed to have no intention of doing so until<BR>
the program made them look like they were being exceedingly unfair.<BR>
<BR>
This was one of the cases that lead to our vehicle licensing authority<BR>
providing<BR>
a phone service whereby prospective buyers could get details of the cars<BR>
registration history, to determine whether the car was owned by the seller,<BR>
and whether or not the car had any loans against it.<BR>
<BR>
The latter was due to many cases of legal transferral of ownership, but<BR>
re-possesion of the vehicle by a lending organization, leaving the<BR>
purchasers out of pocket with no car, and usually little chance of<BR>
recovering it from the seller.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav is pretty obvious. Sell them that spacecraft and then have it<BR>
repossessed by the debt collectors from the bank that originaly covered the<BR>
loan...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and the fact that the paperwork was all in order and it was sold by a<BR>
reputable dealer won't help, they didn't know the original seller was going<BR>
to renege on paying back the loan, did they ?<BR>
<BR>
Or did they ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:54:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
><BR>
> Kagehira@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Not necessarily. I know someone who unknowingly purchased<BR>
> stolen goods and<BR>
> > got busted. From then on he made all sellers sign a statement<BR>
> saying that the<BR>
> > goods were there's to sell.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Bryan<BR>
><BR>
> What does "bust" mean?  He was arrested?  Was he convicted?<BR>
> Totally different situations.<BR>
><BR>
> And knowldge need not be actual.  "Constructive knowledge", i.e.,<BR>
> "you should have known", is good enough.<BR>
<BR>
In a case here in New Zealand, the purchaser of a car, who purchased it from<BR>
a Licensed Motor Vehicle Dealer, with paperwork issued by the State which<BR>
'proved' the dealer's ownership of the car (in other words, there was no<BR>
reasonable way he could have known, suoposedly reputable dealer, 'correct'<BR>
paperwork, etc.) was charged with recieving stolen goods when<BR>
the real owner of the  car saw it parked out side the purchaser's house and<BR>
told the police.<BR>
<BR>
In this case, after a public outcry (and television program) , the police<BR>
withdrew the charges, but they seemed to have no intention of doing so until<BR>
the program made them look like they were being exceedingly unfair.<BR>
<BR>
This was one of the cases that lead to our vehicle licensing authority<BR>
providing<BR>
a phone service whereby prospective buyers could get details of the cars<BR>
registration history, to determine whether the car was owned by the seller,<BR>
and whether or not the car had any loans against it.<BR>
<BR>
The latter was due to many cases of legal transferral of ownership, but<BR>
re-possesion of the vehicle by a lending organization, leaving the<BR>
purchasers out of pocket with no car, and usually little chance of<BR>
recovering it from the seller.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav is pretty obvious. Sell them that spacecraft and then have it<BR>
repossessed by the debt collectors from the bank that originaly covered the<BR>
loan...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and the fact that the paperwork was all in order and it was sold by a<BR>
reputable dealer won't help, they didn't know the original seller was going<BR>
to renege on paying back the loan, did they ?<BR>
<BR>
Or did they ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:55:54 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As a grunt I hated that stuff, too. Makes anybody come out in zits<BR>
> inside 6 hours, and takes longer to get off than the actual field<BR>
> exercise lasted, quite often. Ick.<BR>
<BR>
Cold Cream.... Works wonders....<BR>
<BR>
I don't know, but when dressed for bear it helped keep insects<BR>
off.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 22:12:41 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re ST [ot]<BR>
<BR>
>> > In one of the novels in order to get sufficient CHON<BR>
>> > for a large replication project they had to pick up a great deal<BR>
>> > of matter from an Oort Cloud snowball.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The novels aren't "official".<BR>
><BR>
>According to whom?<BR>
><BR>
Roddenberry, Gene. Great Bird of the Galaxy. More correctly, they are<BR>
offficially liscenced non-canon material. GR at one point put out a<BR>
commentary that stated there were NO canonical 3-engine designs. 1, 2, and<BR>
4, yes. And pointed out that the novels were not canonical.<BR>
<BR>
>> Best evidence is in "The Trouble with Tribbles" where the *food<BR>
>> dispensers* disgorge plates and cups with tribbles in them instead of<BR>
>> food. The tribbles got into the automated food processing gear and eat<BR>
>> the food before it got dumped on the trays.<BR>
>><BR>
>> With replicators, that wouldn't be *possible*.<BR>
><BR>
>That's true; however as someone else has noted, ST is<BR>
>well known for altering the tech for the greatest dramatic<BR>
>effect.  If TOS had no replicators, then why did they stick data<BR>
>sticks into the machinery when they needed something<BR>
>special?  If those things weren't data sticks, then what were<BR>
>they and why were the inserted?<BR>
<BR>
Well, some source material (the deck plans) points out that there are<BR>
parrallel mini-turbolifts for the food system. And there are huge banks of<BR>
"Fabrication Machinery", and huge tanks of raw materials. And a reference<BR>
to textured proteins in a different episode (The one where the young<BR>
officer "sings" "Kathleen"... IIRC). So the data card sends down the food<BR>
plan for the individual, whose protien, vitamin, mineral and other<BR>
nutritional needs are included, as are their preferences. Then they get<BR>
shipped up a meal, fabricated in the food preparation section in the aft<BR>
hull. When the ship has fresh provisions, they get the appropriate "real<BR>
foods", othrwise they get those textured and colored "cubes" of gelatinous<BR>
rations reconsituted from various bulk stores.<BR>
<BR>
Now, an Ob Trav: I think this would be a failry typical military<BR>
approach... the textured and flavored cubes of "ration-glop", processed in<BR>
batches. I don't do it IMTU, since it really is fairly unlikely to be done,<BR>
even tho it is very efficient, except in a society already used to such<BR>
rations.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:12:56 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
This is fun isn't it  ?<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
> > > In the case of D&D material, it would not be reasonable to<BR>
> > > believe that<BR>
> > > Eneri X had legitimate authorty to do post the material.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Of course not, but this is the whole point, in _no_ case is it 'legally'<BR>
> > reasonable for a publisher to assume that any poster has legitimate<BR>
> > authority to post the material.<BR>
><BR>
> By making the agreement, you are asserting authority to post anything<BR>
> you post and accepting responsibility for any infringement of copyright<BR>
> for anything you post which is not yours. That is explicit in the<BR>
> agreement.<BR>
<BR>
The point here is making the agreement does automatically make that<BR>
assertion true.<BR>
<BR>
> The publisher is thus able to rely upon that agreement.<BR>
<BR>
You say this, but then contradict that statement :<BR>
<BR>
> (That doesn't<BR>
> mean they shouldn't double-check, but that is more to avoid the potential<BR>
> of a lawsuit rather than the merits of a potential suit.)<BR>
<BR>
If they should double-check, then they can't really rely on the agreement,<BR>
can they ?<BR>
<BR>
As avoiding the potential of a law suit was the whole point of the agreement<BR>
in the first place, and as you have basically just agreed that they can't<BR>
rely on that agreement to protect them in that way, perhaps you can see now<BR>
why I stated that the agremeent doesn't really protect them ?<BR>
<BR>
> > They would have to show that they had at least gained written<BR>
> > comfirmation of the posters authority to provide the materiel<BR>
> > to stand any chance of a defence.<BR>
<BR>
> And the subcriber contract, a legally enforceable agreement, suffices for<BR>
> that purpose.<BR>
<BR>
There is debate over that. In many countries such 'electronic contracts' are<BR>
still not acceptable legally, as there is no means of identifying the<BR>
parties taking part in the contract unless electronic signatures are<BR>
attached, and even those are only _beginning_ to be accepted as legal.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, in many places even faxes and photocopies aren't considered legal<BR>
documents or proof of a writen contract, without other evidence (such as the<BR>
deposition of a witness).<BR>
<BR>
And yes, I know you don't need a written contract to prove a contract, which<BR>
may be verbal, but you do need evidence.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Hell, as this is an electronic forum we'e talkimg about, they<BR>
> > can't even be reasonably sure that it was in fact the person who agreed<BR>
to<BR>
> > Section G that posted the materiel, unless they use some secure form of<BR>
> >identification verification such as a digital signature on the posts.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, they can.  They are entitled to rely on the credit card transaction.<BR>
> They may not be able to be 'certain' but certainty is a different standard<BR>
> and not relevant to this discussion.<BR>
<BR>
The credit card transaction can only be used to prove that the person who<BR>
agreed to the transaction owns the credit card, and even _that_ is only<BR>
'proven' by the fact that the holder has not asked the credit card company<BR>
to revoke the charge yet<BR>
<BR>
It is perfectly possible that the card information was stolen and the owner<BR>
of the card is unaware of the charge, and is not posting on the board at<BR>
all.<BR>
<BR>
It also does not prove that the person who posted the information is the<BR>
same person that both owns the credit card and agreed to the agreement.<BR>
<BR>
Without a verifiable digital signature on the post or the poster admitting<BR>
that they made the post, it is difficult, if not impossible, to prove that<BR>
any particular post was made by any particular person, without a lot of luck<BR>
or  explicit surveillance.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> From Black's Law Dictionary:<BR>
> "Receiving stolen goods or property.  A criminal offense of receiving<BR>
> any property with the _knowledge_ that it has been feloniously, or<BR>
> unlawfuklly stolen, taken, extorted, obtained, embexxled, or disposed<BR>
> of." [emphasis added]<BR>
> All other definitions in that text also require knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps, but Black's (whatever that is) is not the Law. <grin><BR>
So I went and checked our laws (you can access the majority of New Zealand<BR>
law on line,you just can't use the search engine without paying )<BR>
<BR>
Crimes Act 1961  043<BR>
Commenced: 1 Jan 1962<BR>
<BR>
X: Crimes Against Rights of Property<BR>
Receiving<BR>
258   Receiving property dishonestly obtained<BR>
 (1) Every one who receives anything obtained by any crime, or by any act<BR>
wherever committed which, if committed in New Zealand, would constitute a<BR>
crime,  knowing that thing to have been dishonestly obtained, is liable---<BR>
   (a) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years if the value of<BR>
         the thing so received exceeds the sum of [$40]:<BR>
   (b) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year if the value of<BR>
         the thing so received exceeds the sum of [$10] and does not<BR>
         exceed the sum of [$40]:<BR>
   (c) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months if the value of<BR>
         the thing so received does not exceed the sum of [$10].<BR>
<BR>
available at :<BR>
http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/reprint/text/1961/se/043se258.htm<BR>
l<BR>
<BR>
So, you're right, and I'm wrong. Sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Thing was, I've seen far too many cases of people being charged who<BR>
genuinely did have no idea that items were stolen, that I had presumed the<BR>
police knew what they were talking about.<BR>
<BR>
That'll teach me.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> What part of "get out of [the case] themselves" doesn't protect the<BR>
> publisher?  I think you misread me.<BR>
<BR>
> > The copyright holder would still require the publisher to<BR>
> > either recall all copies of the infringing product or make appropriate<BR>
> > reparations, as it's _they_ that have carried out a _second_<BR>
infringment.<BR>
><BR>
> Whoa.  Different issue.  Thats a remedial measure.  Once the original<BR>
> copyright owner alleges infringement, continued publication may very<BR>
> well be contributory infringement.  It would probably be unreasonable<BR>
> to continue publication in the face of an allegation of infringement.<BR>
> That is why the original copyright owner would file for a preliminary<BR>
> injunction to prevent the publisher from continuing with publication<BR>
> until the actual infringement suit is adjudicated.  You wouldn't want<BR>
> to trust that the publisher is smart enough to know when to stop<BR>
> publishing the allegedly infringing work, and you wouldn't want to<BR>
> be bothered with filing a separate suit for contributory infringement<BR>
> for publishing after the allegation of infringement.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
OK, that covers what to me seemed to not make sense in your original<BR>
description, which is that it seemed like the publisher would be "getting<BR>
away with" their publishing and making an 'illegal' profit.<BR>
<BR>
> > The point is that you cannot avoid being responsible for<BR>
> > committing a crime<BR>
> > by saying it was sonmeone else's duty to prevent you from committing it,<BR>
> > even if that is said in a legal agreement ( except perhaps in<BR>
> > the case of diminished responsibility, wards, or minors ).<BR>
><BR>
> Criminal copyright infringement is an entirely different kettle of fish.<BR>
> This whole discussion has been implicitly about civil copyright<BR>
> infringement.<BR>
> The original copyright owner doesn't bring criminal suits for copyright<BR>
> infringement, the state does.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I wasn't aware that there was that much difference between criminal and<BR>
'civil' copyright law. I was merely assuming that because the police in the<BR>
US are so busy, they didn't bother prosecuting copyright infringement cases,<BR>
so the majority of US criminal cases are brought by the plaintif 'civilly'.<BR>
<BR>
At least over here in NZ it is possible for a private citizen to prosecute a<BR>
criminal case if the police can't be bothered or decide not to for whatever<BR>
reason.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:18:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
> From: Jason T. Barnabas <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
> >Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
> >to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.  A right may<BR>
> >not be infringed nor regulated by legal code.  Yet, every state<BR>
> >that I have checked on has a "law" requiring drivers to be<BR>
> >licenced.<BR>
> -------------------------------------------<BR>
> And this infringes your right to travel how?<BR>
<BR>
By regulating it.  The attempted regulation is the<BR>
infringement.  The attempt to dilute or lessen the right is the<BR>
infringement.<BR>
<BR>
> No one is saying that you cannot go where you want to go, only that to<BR>
drive<BR>
> yourself there you need to be able to demonstate that you are capable of<BR>
> controlling 3/4 of a ton of metal moving at 55mph so as to not endanger<BR>
> either yourself or other road users. Now, you might respond "I don't need<BR>
a<BR>
> license to demonstrate that, my ability is obvious."<BR>
<BR>
> I agree, in most circumstances you can clearly demonstrate an obvious<BR>
> ability eg driving in a straight line, coming to a slow stop, straight<BR>
> forward steering, etc. But the license demonstates you have achieve a<BR>
> measured, standardised competence in, among other things, emergency stops,<BR>
> awareness of other road users, rights of way etc...<BR>
<BR>
The licence demonstrates none of these things.<BR>
<BR>
> Oops, perhaps you feel<BR>
> that stop signs unconstitutionally infringe upon your inalienable *right*<BR>
to<BR>
> blithely scythe your way through cross traffic <g>. Or that complying with<BR>
> the requirement of driving on the right (wierdos... <g>) infringes your<BR>
> *right* to *travel* at 100mph weaving erratically along the left-hand side<BR>
> of the freeway....<BR>
<BR>
Okay, make a big joke out of it.  Yes, I see your imoticons, so<BR>
I know this is an attempt at humor.  However, on a serious<BR>
note, my rights end where the other guys' begin, so if I were<BR>
to do the things you specify, I would be violating someone<BR>
else's rights and that is a crime.<BR>
<BR>
> And NASA are infringing your right to travel to outer space by not letting<BR>
> you walk in off the street and Pilot the Shuttle.... The Unconstitutional<BR>
> Bastards!<BR>
<BR>
I said nothing of the sort.  If I were to "walk in off the street<BR>
and Pilot the Shuttle" without NASAs permission, I would be<BR>
violating NASAs rights.  Each person (and NASA is a<BR>
person, legally speaking) has a right to control thier own<BR>
property.  To decide who may and may not use it.  Until I<BR>
build or buy my own space craft, my right to travel into space<BR>
is not in question.<BR>
<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
> >How do they get away with this?  The words used in law do<BR>
> >not always mean what they do in real life.  For example, in<BR>
> >most US jurisdictions, the word "driver" is defined legally as<BR>
> >someone who opperates a motor vehicle for profit.  So, if<BR>
> >you do not carry people or goods for profit, you are not a<BR>
> >driver (legally speaking).<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
> Legalism gone mad....<BR>
<BR>
Talk about loaded terms.<BR>
<BR>
> Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at<BR>
with<BR>
> stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world?<BR>
<BR>
I can't speak for "Americans in general."  However, as a<BR>
private person, I was not aware that "much of the rest of the<BR>
world" looked at America "with stunned bemusement."  From<BR>
my interactions with people from many parts of the world, I<BR>
doubt that it is in fact true.  Perhaps I am wrong but I doubt it.<BR>
<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
> >Other words that get twisted by legal definitions include<BR>
> >"shall" and "must," which have been defined as meaning<BR>
> >"may" by the US Supreme Court in order to keep legal<BR>
> >codes from being unconstitutional.<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
> See above...<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
> >On the other hand, in real life, a driver is the person who<BR>
> >controls a car, bus or truck reguardless of profit.  So, when<BR>
> >people read the legal code that says, "All drivers must be<BR>
> >licenced."  They naturally assume that if they want to use<BR>
> >thier private, non-commercial carriage, they need a licence<BR>
> >issued by the state.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >If they don't get the state's licence or allow it to laps and are<BR>
> >busted by the supposed "public servants" (such as police<BR>
><BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
> You mean that if they arrest you (You in General) then they are Fascist<BR>
> Lackey's, even if they are 'serving the public' by removing a source of<BR>
> danger from the roads....<BR>
<BR>
I never said anything about fascism and you haven't shown<BR>
how the lack of a licence (which is what I was talking about),<BR>
constitutes a source of danger.<BR>
<BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
> >or hiway patrol officers), they can be convicted of violating<BR>
> >the law, simply because they don't know what thier rights are.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Even most lawyers don't actually know what thier rights are<BR>
> >because they are part of the system and the system doesn't<BR>
> >thrive when the people know what thier rights are.<BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
> No, the system thrives due to the legal wranglings of people trying to<BR>
> assume a right where none exists<BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
> >Knowledge is Power.   The politicos who have converted our<BR>
><BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> I advise you to aquire some. And a spell checker.<BR>
>                                              VVVVVVV<BR>
> VVV<BR>
> ------------------------------------------<BR>
> >beautiful republic into a "democtracy" do not want thier apple<BR>
> >cart upset.<BR>
<BR>
Knowledge is spelled correctly, so I assume that is what you<BR>
are advising me to get some of.  Beautiful is also spelled<BR>
correctly, so perhaps the mailer cut the line somewhere other<BR>
than where you intended.  Hmm, let's see even though your<BR>
Vs are nowhere near it, I see a typo in democracy, so<BR>
perhaps that's what you are referring to.  It is impolite to point<BR>
out a typographical error unless it is done in fun, but I see no<BR>
imoticon to tell me you were jesting with me.  So, I'm<BR>
wondering why the personal attack?  What did I do to you to<BR>
make you point out so obvious a flaw?<BR>
<BR>
> >--<BR>
> >Jason<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Disclaimer:  I am not a lawyer and do not offer legal advice.<BR>
><BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
> Obviously. Though I expect you believe you should have the 'right' to be<BR>
> one, even without a license <g><BR>
<BR>
Again a personal attack.  No substance, just attack.  Your<BR>
imoticon doesn't soften enough in light of the earlier attacks.<BR>
You are also again putting words in my mouth.  I never<BR>
claimed or inferred that I believe that I have the right to be a<BR>
lawyer.  No one has a _right_ to be a lawyer.  If you don't<BR>
believe me, ask Bloo.  Everyone has the right to study the<BR>
law* because everyone has a right to defend themselves*.<BR>
Again, if you don't believe me ask Bloo.<BR>
<BR>
  * Applies in America, elsewhere, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> -----------------------------------------<BR>
> >I also do not advocate breaking any legal codes nor civil<BR>
> >disobedience in any form.  The above is provided by way of<BR>
> >illustration only.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:18:47 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<snip><BR>
> In the Far Future, I think we'll all communicate a little like<BR>
> the Hivers, with immediate electronic transfers of some<BR>
> information to avoid ambiguity.  So if you and I are standing on<BR>
> the street and I ask you to contact me later at a certain time<BR>
> at a certain address (electronic or whatever), I'll transmit the<BR>
> specifics to you in text form by some kind of electronic medium,<BR>
> whether embedded in a business card or by radio or laser signal<BR>
> from my date book to yours.<BR>
<BR>
One of the things I liked about T4 was the business ring.<BR>
Shake hands with someone and automatically exchange an<BR>
electronic business card.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:19:04 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
<BR>
From: <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/14/00 6:09:08 PM Central Standard Time, Jason T.<BR>
> Barnabas writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at<BR>
with<BR>
>  stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world? >><BR>
><BR>
> Our youthful good looks and naively charming ways? <g><BR>
<BR>
Yoh Simon,  I didn't write that.  Some bloke in the UK (or at<BR>
least with a .uk addy) did.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1923<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1924</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/15/00 7:49:56 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1924<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
RE: misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: Legal Systems (Was Re: Cpyright)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1889<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
RE: THUDDD<BR>
Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
Re: Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
Re: Ethiopia, Cipatwe <BR>
Re: robot economics<BR>
RE: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
re: JTAS rights<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:32:39 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
<BR>
At 17:00 15/02/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
>I have picked up Pocket EMpires after an 18 month hiatus and have completed<BR>
>my house rules set that discards the battle rules.  I want to use the<BR>
>standard starship design rules for 'Emperors' to construct fleets of<BR>
>individual ships etc, alas the rules contained in starships do not allow the<BR>
>creation of large vessels.  Does anybody have a copy of Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
>that they are willing to sell?<BR>
<BR>
If you can run Excel (or Quattro pro?), forget the book.<BR>
<BR>
Just head to<BR>
<BR>
	http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
and collect Andy's spreadsheet from the "Depot"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:49:17 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Jason T. Barnabas<BR>
><BR>
> One of the things I liked about T4 was the business ring.<BR>
> Shake hands with someone and automatically exchange an<BR>
> electronic business card.<BR>
<BR>
You realize we already have this technology ?<BR>
<BR>
It's part of the PAN (Personal Area Network) being researched by MIT Media<BR>
Lab and IBM.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:42:34 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
> >Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
><BR>
> Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month<BR>
> pre-mature...<BR>
<BR>
Why?  My momma says that first born children are usually<BR>
premature.  ;-)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
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- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:51:51 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Legal Systems (Was Re: Cpyright)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Thing was, I've seen far too many cases of people being charged who<BR>
>genuinely did have no idea that items were stolen, that I had presumed the<BR>
>police knew what they were talking about.<BR>
><BR>
>That'll teach me.<BR>
<BR>
One of the interesting things about the US legal systems: The multitude of<BR>
steps<BR>
<BR>
Step one: The police investigate an alleged crime<BR>
Step two: Supposedly based upon evidence, an arrest is made.<BR>
Step three: Interrogation.<BR>
Step Four: Charges are levied, if merited by the evidence and/or interrogation<BR>
Step five: The Quest for Indictment - The Grand Jury<BR>
Step six: pretrial maneuvering<BR>
Step seven: The trial<BR>
Step eight: the decision by the Jury<BR>
Step nine: sentencing<BR>
Step ten: The punishment<BR>
Step eleven: Reducing the punishment mid sentence... AKA, the Quest for Parole.<BR>
Step twelve: The oft omitted parole time.<BR>
Step thirteen: Release from Authority.<BR>
<BR>
Supposedly, each step should build upon the others. Unfortunately, step one<BR>
is frequently incomplete, step two is often done before or during step one,<BR>
step three usually begins concurrent with step one, not step two... and<BR>
step four tends to be either way to slow or way too fast on any given case.<BR>
<BR>
The process is supposed to be stopable at any point. Typically, steps<BR>
seven, eight and nine get ommitted by plea bargaining....<BR>
<BR>
And, by the way, these are just the percieved steps to a<BR>
non-officer-of-the-court, non-lawyer, non-convict. It does actually work<BR>
sort of this way. As a victim, it looked to work that way, even tho the<BR>
arrest took place first. And the plea bargain process saved a friend from a<BR>
destructive pattern of intoxicant abuse, as well as allowing him to do the<BR>
right thing. I can't go back, but I do feel justice was done. And so does<BR>
the convict... he's the friend in question.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Due process for IMOJ? For Admirality instigated actions? IMTU, it<BR>
basically boils down to a few steps: Investigate, Arrest, Trial, Sentence,<BR>
serve sentence, maybe return to society. No grand jury process; if the<BR>
charges are without merit, they can be dismissed by the court. No waits for<BR>
trials - As soon as the requisite nobles are present, court convenes.<BR>
Travel time is allowed. Time to prepare a defense is not. Punishments are<BR>
few: they are also draconian. In short, they work much like the KGB is said<BR>
to have done: By the time of the trial, it is all over except the<BR>
sentencing for non-nobles; citizens might have some protections, but once<BR>
the court decides to hear the case, some punishment will result... not<BR>
always the defendant reciving it tho...<BR>
<BR>
As for individual worlds, most will have some due process. It may vary.<BR>
Itmay even be trial by combat or trial by ordeal... so long as it offers<BR>
some chance to nobles and citizens to appeal to the nobles, and nobles are<BR>
tried by a jury of nobles, IMOJ tends to let it run... Subjects, however,<BR>
may not be given a chance.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 02:53:14 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1889<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/14/00 7:52 PM, samir@chisp.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Plankton class ship<BR>
;) Very funny, but I think you mean Plankwell?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 03:02:44 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/14/00 9:30 PM, jimpeta@primus.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Besides you still haven't told me who says the books aren't<BR>
>> "official."<BR>
>> --<BR>
>> Jason<BR>
> <BR>
> Are you guys *really* arguing Star Trek *continuity* ?<BR>
> Jim (Star Trek hater)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
Star Trek would be great, if it /had/ continuity.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:49:17 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
>> From: Jason T. Barnabas <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
>> Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America<BR>
>> is looked at with stunned bemusement by much of the rest<BR>
>> of the world?<BR>
><BR>
>I can't speak for "Americans in general."  However, as a<BR>
>private person, I was not aware that "much of the rest of the<BR>
>world" looked at America "with stunned bemusement."  From<BR>
>my interactions with people from many parts of the world, I<BR>
>doubt that it is in fact true.  Perhaps I am wrong but I doubt it.<BR>
<BR>
Only when you try and explain how America works. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Most of the time, I just assume that you're<BR>
<BR>
"a bunch of hairless ape descendants who don't know any better"* **<BR>
<BR>
Safe in the knowledge that this is also the simlest explanation<BR>
of how the UK is "organised"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
* Apologies to Douglas Adams<BR>
** and to anyone who doesn't believe in evolution.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:08:42 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at with<BR>
>> stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world?<BR>
><BR>
>This coming from the land that requires a license to own a<BR>
>television and has no written coherent constitution?  And<BR>
>Germans masquerading as English royalty?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Not just a TV - you need a license to own *any* radio receiver - like the one<BR>
in your car!<BR>
<BR>
(At least it's a property plus related mobile equipment license - needing one<BR>
 license for each radio and TV would be a pain!)<BR>
<BR>
>That 'stunned bemusement' goes both ways.<BR>
<BR>
I should hope so too. If the UK ever sounds sensible, someone's missed<BR>
part of the explanation. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:32:53 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at with<BR>
>>> stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> This coming from the land that requires a license to own a<BR>
>> television and has no written coherent constitution?  And<BR>
>> Germans masquerading as English royalty?  ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Not just a TV - you need a license to own *any* radio receiver - like the one<BR>
> in your car!<BR>
> <BR>
> (At least it's a property plus related mobile equipment license - needing one<BR>
> license for each radio and TV would be a pain!)<BR>
> <BR>
>> That 'stunned bemusement' goes both ways.<BR>
> <BR>
> I should hope so too. If the UK ever sounds sensible, someone's missed<BR>
> part of the explanation. :-)<BR>
<BR>
I can certainly see why the Beatles did a song called "The Taxman." :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:56:45 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At the very least, *intelligently* used low tech forces could tie up a<BR>
>*lot* of high tech forces. <BR>
<BR>
The evidence* suggests that the low tech forces also tend to die in droves,<BR>
no matter how well they are used.<BR>
<BR>
The first company of marines might have a problem. By the time the second<BR>
brigade arrives, the locals would have a lot of unmarked graves.<BR>
<BR>
*Vietnam and various colonial acions<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:53:15 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: OT-American Science & Surplus RPG books<BR>
<BR>
Black Ice wrote:<BR>
>Could you let me know whether the Buck Rogers ships would be suitable<BR>
>for Silent Death?  (Naturally, I'd also be interested in whether the BR<BR>
>ships look slightly plausible as Traveller ships.)<BR>
<BR>
They arrived last night - three different kinds of ships, in six colors each,<BR>
as well as these grey gun pods. I'd already promised some people on<BR>
a boardgames newsgroup that I'd provide descriptions and measurements,<BR>
I'll do it tonight and copy to the TML.<BR>
<BR>
The RPG books were all TSR, five books total, three titles (two each<BR>
of a Buck Rogers bit and a Planescape bit, and another planescape<BR>
bit).<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:12:43 -0600<BR>
From: "Derek Dees" <djdees@mm.com><BR>
Subject: RE: THUDDD<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that this traffic is ship and starport designs and/or campaign<BR>
building stuff, I'd love to "wade" through it. :)<BR>
<BR>
Derek<BR>
djdees@mm.com<BR>
http://www.mm.com/user/djdees<BR>
<BR>
Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who<BR>
doesn't get it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jason T.<BR>
> Barnabas<BR>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2000 12:13 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: THUDDD<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > "Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Was there anyone who wanted to submit a design for the<BR>
> > > Modular Cutter design competition that didn't get one in<BR>
> > > before the deadline?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > AuricTech Shipyards regretfully informs the ISBA that we will be unable<BR>
> > to submit a design for THUDDD 11.  Our design bureau was unwilling to<BR>
> > compromise our quality standards to meet the cost constraints of the<BR>
> > proposal.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > On a brighter note for our stockholders, AuricTech Shipyards (circa<BR>
> > M:1115) has secured an Imperial Navy contract for 12 commerce raiders.<BR>
> > These twelve ships will be used as the benchmark for the upcoming THUDDD<BR>
> > 12 design competition, to be posted for comment within the week.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (OOC: My plans are to post the AuricTech design at the beginning of the<BR>
> > competition, as a standard for other design bureaux to meet or exceed.<BR>
> > I will also post a design for a 20kt freightliner, as a benchmark target<BR>
> > ship for the THUDDD 12 competition.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (BTW, to which mailing list is ISBA-related traffic being posted these<BR>
> > days?)<BR>
><BR>
> I guess we might as well use the TML until such point as the<BR>
> traffic gets unbearable for the TMLers who are not involved<BR>
> or we get enough people who want to participate in<BR>
> THUDDD, but don't have the time to wade through the TML<BR>
> posts looking for THUDDD/ISBA stuff.<BR>
> --<BR>
> Jason<BR>
> ______________________________________________<BR>
>     The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
> http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
> Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
> <BR>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
> Version: 3.2<BR>
> GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
> PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> __________________________________________<BR>
> NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
> Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
> http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:14:51 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Dan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> A more interesting matchup would be an  aircraft with Harrier style flight<BR>
> capabilities vs. your nice fast jet figher, say one of those jets the frogs<BR>
> flogged about the world not to long ago.  Such a matchup did occur some<BR>
> years back in the Brit vs. Arggies dust up. The tech is about the same but<BR>
> the Harriers came out on top.  That said what about a chopper vs.  a nice<BR>
> fast jet fighter.  There is some official doctrine on these matchups as<BR>
> well.  If the slower more manuverable craft has the capacity to reach out<BR>
> and touch his opponent and the terrain lets him dodge in the ground clutter,<BR>
> i.e. get lost in it,  well... it would be a bit like trying to fight a<BR>
> badger on the ground and giving the badger a set of very long claws in the<BR>
> bargain.<BR>
> <BR>
vs. a helicopter that won't come up and play: consider a well placed<BR>
1000 pound GP bomb...<BR>
<BR>
yours<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:44:31 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 17:00 15/02/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
> >I have picked up Pocket EMpires after an 18 month hiatus and have completed<BR>
> >my house rules set that discards the battle rules.  I want to use the<BR>
> >standard starship design rules for 'Emperors' to construct fleets of<BR>
> >individual ships etc, alas the rules contained in starships do not allow the<BR>
> >creation of large vessels.  Does anybody have a copy of Fire Fusion & Steel<BR>
> >that they are willing to sell?<BR>
> <BR>
> If you can run Excel (or Quattro pro?), forget the book.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just head to<BR>
> <BR>
>         http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/index.htm<BR>
> <BR>
> and collect Andy's spreadsheet from the "Depot"<BR>
<BR>
<blatant plug><BR>
<BR>
For copies of the Akins spreadsheet (Excel 5.0) with sample ships, go to<BR>
my Web site (URL in sig) and follow the link to the Traveller page. <BR>
(BTW, I fixed a bug in the power consumption for G-comp.)<BR>
<BR>
</blatant plug><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:41:47 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ethiopia, Cipatwe <BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Damn I wish I hadn't taken<BR>
> that alcohol neutralizer I could be drunk and sleeping all the<BR>
> way to jump point.<BR>
<BR>
Ha! Great stuff Glnn!<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:51:02 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: robot economics<BR>
<BR>
Jason T. Barnabas writes:<BR>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
	Pleeeeez avoid the MIME stuff, it filled about 50% of<BR>
	the digest with gobbledy-gook   :)<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU, most banks will not finance robots per se.  Most of the=20<BR>
>manufacturers of robots; however, will.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	That is consistent with current practice, as most expensive<BR>
	items can be financed where you buy them.<BR>
<BR>
>3D    Interest<BR>
> 5- Preferred<BR>
> 6  Preferred + 0.25%<BR>
> 7  Preferred + 0.50%<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>As long as I'm on the topic, IMTU, the Prime Rate ranges=20<BR>
>from 3.5% to 5.5% ((4D + 31) / 10) and banks generally=20<BR>
>make preferred rate loans (capital loans) at c. 1% over=20<BR>
>prime.  Most economies tend to be fairly stable.  The prime=20<BR>
>generally remains fairly close to 4.5%.<BR>
<BR>
	Cool stuff, but more involved than I want to get.<BR>
<BR>
>> How long does the<BR>
>> typical robot last? =20<BR>
>IMTU, things are built to last.  With proper maintenance, a=20<BR>
>high tech=20<BR>
>robot will last millennia.  This is one of the reasons that=20<BR>
>people don't like having them around.<BR>
<BR>
	It also makes them virtually free in the long term, unless<BR>
	they are so expensive that the initial purchase price is<BR>
	astronomical.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>This same technology can be used to transfer a personality=20<BR>
>from an organic body to a robotic one* (rarely done) or from=20<BR>
>an old body to a clone**.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Do you mean "transfered", or do you mean "replicated?"<BR>
	Copying a personality and "puting" it in a robot or<BR>
	clone (this probably requires some serious hand-waving)<BR>
	does not destroy the original (unless there is another<BR>
	handwave), therefore all you have done is created a<BR>
	double of yourself who will live while you die.<BR>
<BR>
>> How much upkeep and maintenance does it<BR>
>> require?<BR>
>About the same as a vehicle of a similar size and complexity.<BR>
<BR>
	Which would be... ?  The 1% of cost per annum sounds good,<BR>
	but that still depends on how much you are charging for the<BR>
	unit.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Android robots also require the use of a "disguise kit" to=20<BR>
>keep their appearance completely human (or alien, as the=20<BR>
<BR>
	IMTU, robots that can pass for human are TL 16+.  At<BR>
	lower TL, they might fool you if they don't move around<BR>
	or converse too much.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Automatons are also=20<BR>
>available at TL 7.  Onboard computers are available at TL8. =20<BR>
>Improved robotic computers become available at TL 9. =20<BR>
>Crude robotic "brains" (duotronic) become available at TL=20<BR>
>10 and are improved at TL11.  At TL 12 positronic brains=20<BR>
>become available.  These offer a very limited form of AI. =20<BR>
>Improvements continue up to about TL 15 where positronic=20<BR>
>brains are the ultimate in cybernetic devices.<BR>
<BR>
	I assume that there are a lot of robots IYTU, what is your<BR>
	rational for having human starships crews, etc., or do you<BR>
	have them?<BR>
<BR>
>By custom, all independent robots are required to=20<BR>
>incorporate at least the first and second of Dr. Asimov's laws=20<BR>
>of robotics.  If you know where to look IMTU, you will find=20<BR>
>planets inhabited by robots exclusively.  Every member of=20<BR>
>these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.<BR>
<BR>
	What is the fourth? I know just 3.<BR>
<BR>
>> This may be a stretch, but it would be<BR>
>> nice to have some sort of limit on how many robots you can<BR>
>> carry (perhaps just a limit of 1 per stateroom, or up to 8 in<BR>
>> an unoccupied stateroom).<BR>
>Depending upon design, that seems a little excessive. =20<BR>
>Besides, what is a robot going to use all that space for? =20<BR>
>And, why would it need the amenities that a human might?<BR>
<BR>
	Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear here.  I meant that<BR>
	one might limit the robots on a ship to one for every<BR>
	human-occupied stateroom, or stand 8 in a stateroom that<BR>
	is not occupied by any humans (or other sophonts).  This<BR>
	would allow room for the robots to come and go, for<BR>
	techs to get in and do maintainance, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:04:44 -0000<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Frank G. Pitt [mailto:frankie@mundens.gen.nz]<BR>
> > On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> > From Black's Law Dictionary:<BR>
> > "Receiving stolen goods or property.  A criminal offense of <BR>
> receiving<BR>
> > any property with the _knowledge_ that it has been feloniously, or<BR>
> > unlawfuklly stolen, taken, extorted, obtained, embexxled, <BR>
> or disposed<BR>
> > of." [emphasis added]<BR>
> > All other definitions in that text also require knowledge.<BR>
> <BR>
> Perhaps, but Black's (whatever that is) is not the Law. <grin><BR>
> So I went and checked our laws (you can access the majority <BR>
> of New Zealand<BR>
> law on line,you just can't use the search engine without paying )<BR>
> <BR>
> Crimes Act 1961  043<BR>
> Commenced: 1 Jan 1962<BR>
> <BR>
> X: Crimes Against Rights of Property<BR>
> Receiving<BR>
> 258   Receiving property dishonestly obtained<BR>
>  (1) Every one who receives anything obtained by any crime, <BR>
> or by any act<BR>
> wherever committed which, if committed in New Zealand, would <BR>
> constitute a<BR>
> crime,  knowing that thing to have been dishonestly obtained, <BR>
          ^^^^^^^<BR>
Your example requires 'knowledge'as well, and *is* the law... at least<BR>
it is where you are.<g><BR>
<BR>
> is liable---<BR>
>    (a) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years if <BR>
> the value of<BR>
>          the thing so received exceeds the sum of [$40]:<BR>
>    (b) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year if <BR>
> the value of<BR>
>          the thing so received exceeds the sum of [$10] and does not<BR>
>          exceed the sum of [$40]:<BR>
>    (c) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months if <BR>
> the value of<BR>
>          the thing so received does not exceed the sum of [$10].<BR>
<BR>
I bet those figures seemed a lot more reasonable in 1962 <g>. I often<BR>
wonder why legislators set absolute monetary values down in the statute<BR>
books... Haven't they heard of inflation? They could at least index link<BR>
it... <g><BR>
 <BR>
> available at :<BR>
> http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/reprint/text/1961/s<BR>
> e/043se258.html<BR>
> <BR>
> So, you're right, and I'm wrong. Sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Ooops, repeat to self "Must read whole post before replying! Must read<BR>
whole post before replying! Must read whole post before replying!" <g><BR>
 <BR>
> Thing was, I've seen far too many cases of people being charged who<BR>
> genuinely did have no idea that items were stolen, that I had <BR>
> presumed the<BR>
> police knew what they were talking about.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmmm, 'charged', 'arrested', 'prosecuted', or 'helping with enquiries'?<BR>
There are subtle but important differences between all these phrases...<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
After all, the police sieze stolen goods, and the finger of suspicion<BR>
points at the person who had them at the time... a simple "I didn't know<BR>
they was bent, Guv'ner! Honest!" isn't quite enough to stop the police<BR>
proceeding with an investigation... <g> <BR>
<BR>
You may be 'Asked to accompany them to the Station, to help with their<BR>
enquiries', and if you refuse you may be 'Arrested on suspicion of<BR>
recieving stolen goods', and if you are unable to convince them that you<BR>
are an innocent dupe of the evil criminal matermind behind the whole<BR>
thing, then you may be 'Charged with recieving stolen goods'. <BR>
<BR>
These charges may subsequently be dropped, as further evidence comes to<BR>
light, or if the Prosecution service decides that there is insufficient<BR>
evidence to secure a reasonable chance of conviction, or you will<BR>
eventually be 'Prosecuted for recieving stolen goods'. You may even be<BR>
'Convicted for recieving stolen goods'. None of the above invalidates<BR>
the fact that you may be innocent, but the victim of a frame and/or poor<BR>
legal help....<BR>
<BR>
At all stages I expect the police 'knew' what they were talking about<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:32:04 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: JTAS rights<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>An example: His roommate mentions an idea. A good one. He *can't* post<BR>
>that idea under the current SJG rules without violating his country's<BR>
>law. Because to preserve his roommate's right, the SJG agreement<BR>
>requires a copyright notice. Which would have to contain his roommate's<BR>
>name (because he can't legally post it with a copyright notice with<BR>
>*his* name, because it isn't *his* idea). But he can't post that notice<BR>
>without permission (and maybe not even then, I'm not sure what the<BR>
>exact restrictions on disclosing info about a third party are).<BR>
<BR>
I thought copyright protected a certain representation of an idea, rather<BR>
than the idea itself - I thought ideas themselves weren't copyrightable. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:13:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:18 AM 2/15/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> And this infringes your right to travel how?<BR>
><BR>
>By regulating it.  The attempted regulation is the<BR>
>infringement.  The attempt to dilute or lessen the right is the<BR>
>infringement.<BR>
<BR>
Gods, we just went through this in alt.conspiracy...<BR>
<BR>
I live in San Francisco. I want to, for some reason, go to New York. There<BR>
is nothing preventing me from:<BR>
<BR>
1. Buying a plane ticket<BR>
2. Taking a train<BR>
3. Hiring someone to drive me<BR>
4. Taking Greyhound<BR>
5. Taking a ship through the Panama Canal<BR>
6. Walking (people do this occasionally.)<BR>
<BR>
I could even hitch-hike (legal in 42 states) or jump the rails and hobo<BR>
(not legal, but a fairly common practice.)<BR>
<BR>
There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in there,<BR>
and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
Amendment right to peaceably assemble. <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1924<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1925<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: Aging Rolls<BR>
re: the complete story<BR>
Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
RE: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
re: JTAS copyrights<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
RE:zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
RE Tech Prog and SocImp<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
RE: JTAS copyrights<BR>
SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Guys with bad names<BR>
FF&S2 Spreadsheet Available: New Version!<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:22:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
At 06:31 PM 2/14/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Try making that claim about the meaning of "driver" and the judge will<BR>
>tell you you are wrong. Keep arguing, and you'll do time for contempt<BR>
>of court, *then* get to worry about the traffic violations.<BR>
<BR>
Back when Kirsten and I were *really* broke, we used to spend Friday<BR>
evenings at Traffic Court. It's amazing to see people argue a simple<BR>
speeding ticket into a contempt of court charge and reckless driving.<BR>
<BR>
The best one I can remember:<BR>
<BR>
Judge: "The officer's report states that you were travelling 90 in a 65 zone."<BR>
<BR>
Defendant: "No way! I had already slowed way down past that."<BR>
<BR>
Judge: "Slowed down to 90? Sir, how fast were you going?"<BR>
<BR>
Defendant: "About 130 before I saw the cop."<BR>
<BR>
Judge: <smacks gavel> "Charges amended to Reckless Driving, handed over for<BR>
trial."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"<BR>
                    -Adam West, as Batman <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:27:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
At 11:16 AM 2/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
>to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
<BR>
Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is no such<BR>
right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:33:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New Filk, just in time for Valentine's day!<BR>
<BR>
At 09:22 PM 2/14/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>I like it.  Separating serious and silly filks sounds like a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
Well, what it is going to be is a seperate page for all the filks, with<BR>
links from both Sylea Downport, and from the Silly Era. I'll organize the<BR>
page into the serious songs and silly songs, but I'd like them to be all in<BR>
one place.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:42:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1899<BR>
<BR>
At 06:45 PM 2/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Mr. Berry, in my many years of being a Traveller fan, I have endured much.<BR>
>I saw the Imperium killed by an assassin's bullet.  I saw the corpse<BR>
>desecrated by psychotic silicon.  I have seen jump torpedoes, drop tanks,<BR>
>near-C rocks, reactionless drives, HePLar, and even... <twitch> GURPS rules.<BR>
><BR>
>But now... YOU would DARE to present us with a Traveller universe that<BR>
>isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Shhh.. I was placating Jens.. Trust me, in GF the sunburst is replaced with<BR>
the stars and stripes, Imperial troops wear steel pots with the chin straps<BR>
undone, and the Zhodani are all played by Max Von Sydow, Richard Munch,<BR>
Siegfried Rauch and Karl Michael Vogler.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:45:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
At 09:02 PM 2/14/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Huhn? As a tanker in the '80's I lived in that danm grease paint. Was this<BR>
>something that changed in those 20 years? I hated that fu*^%$#g paint far<BR>
>worse than C-Rats or MRE's ... In the reserves the worst treatment was<BR>
>reserved for officers that actually made us wear that sh*t.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly. By the mid-80s it was standard field gear because of the lessons<BR>
learned in Vietnam. Also why we lost the nice starched fatigues for the<BR>
baggy BDU. Soliders who are not easily seen tend to live longer.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:48:09<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
At 04:41 PM 2/15/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>They you wear that stuff in tanks? That shows a really poor confidence <BR>
>in one's armour :)<BR>
<BR>
What's the difference between a M-60A3 and a pop-up target?<BR>
<BR>
The pop-up works after getting hit once. :P<BR>
<BR>
>As a grunt I hated that stuff, too. Makes anybody come out in zits <BR>
>inside 6 hours, and takes longer to get off than the actual field <BR>
>exercise lasted, quite often. Ick.<BR>
<BR>
Dude, rub your face with petroleum jelly before you do your paint. The<BR>
stuff goes on better, and is much easier to wash off.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 23:03:26 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Aging Rolls<BR>
<BR>
In message <38976D26.9547280E@pharmacy.arizona.edu>, Bruce Johnson<BR>
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes<BR>
><BR>
>This came up in the study of Dolly and her clones...the clones had<BR>
>telomeres the length of the adult sheep; hence the lambs should start<BR>
>shoing the signs of aging much more rapidly. <BR>
<BR>
Sorry if this has been answered - I'm a bit behind - but the lambs<BR>
haven't aged more rapidly - the telomere theory is being re-thought.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:58:22 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
Jason Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
>>>Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
>><BR>
>> Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month<BR>
>> pre-mature...<BR>
><BR>
>Why?  My momma says that first born children are usually<BR>
>premature.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Aren't there some societies where a man won't marry a woman unless<BR>
he can get her pregnant first? Just to insure a supply of heirs?<BR>
<BR>
(I may be channeling misremembered Heinlein as history, though. <G>)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:12:00 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>Exactly. By the mid-80s it was standard field gear because of the lessons<BR>
>learned in Vietnam. Also why we lost the nice starched fatigues for the<BR>
>baggy BDU. Soliders who are not easily seen tend to live longer.<BR>
<BR>
Someone (here?) mentioned a motto at a military training school,<BR>
perhaps written over the door of the people who taught camoflage<BR>
techniques:<BR>
<BR>
"If they can see you, they can kill you. Hide!"<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:06:16 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
<BR>
Scout Harris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:29:37   Daniel Phelps wrote:<BR>
> >Was written:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>>Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
> >>> guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
> <BR>
> I read a short story about just that situation (can't remember the authour... sorry). A jet fighter had fallen back in time to WW1. He had the same problem (no lock, too slow), so his solution was to fly supersonic past the byplanes and let the roiling air currents tear the biplanes to pieces.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The title was 'Hawk Among Sparrows', but I can't remember the author's<BR>
name...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:14:12 -0000<BR>
From: "Alistair J. R. Young" <avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
> > Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at<BR>
with<BR>
> > stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world?<BR>
><BR>
> This coming from the land that requires a license to own a<BR>
> television<BR>
<BR>
ObExtremePedanticism: Technically, you only need a licence to *use* a<BR>
television. You can own one without a license. To be extremely technical,<BR>
you can even use a television without a licence, provided that you only use<BR>
it as, say, a monitor for a home computer and never watch any broadcast<BR>
television on it, but that last is a bit of a bugger to prove unless the<BR>
relevant functionality has actually been disabled.<BR>
<BR>
> and has no written coherent constitution?<BR>
<BR>
Good Thing. It saves arguments.<BR>
<BR>
Alistair<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:52:19 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
<BR>
>By custom, all independent robots are required to=20<BR>
>incorporate at least the first and second of Dr. Asimov's laws=20<BR>
>of robotics.  If you know where to look IMTU, you will find=20<BR>
>planets inhabited by robots exclusively.  Every member of=20<BR>
>these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.<BR>
<BR>
    What is the fourth? I know just 3.<BR>
<BR>
Probably  Law Zero:<BR>
 "No Robot may harm Humanity, or through inaction allow Humanity to come to <BR>
harm."<BR>
<BR>
 This can be found in the "middle" Robots books (names escape me, sorry) of <BR>
Asimov, after the three classic ones (I Robot, Caves of Steel, aaaand... ). <BR>
They were written much later to tie the original triple trilogy (Robots - <BR>
Empire - Foundation) together.<BR>
 In a Traveller world setting that was all robots, the Zero Law (and the <BR>
First, for that matter) may well change targets. Depending on how much <BR>
knowledge and access the robots have regarding the worlds beyond, they may <BR>
apply these laws to  just themselves (Humanity and Humans are replaced by <BR>
"Us"), or the Laws may spread to include all "sentient life". Staying focused <BR>
on Humaniti is also possible...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:00:39 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Alistair J. R. Young wrote:<BR>
> ObExtremePedanticism: Technically, you only need a licence to<BR>
> *use* a television. You can own one without a license. To be <BR>
> extremely technical, you can even use a television without a<BR>
> licence, provided that you only use it as, say, a monitor for<BR>
> a home computer and never watch any broadcast television on it,<BR>
> but that last is a bit of a bugger to prove unless the relevant<BR>
> functionality has actually been disabled.<BR>
<BR>
Unless this has changed recently you are in  error.  You  need  a<BR>
licence to operate a broadcast  signal  receiver  (radio  or  TV)<BR>
regardless of wether you can receive a signal or not:<BR>
<BR>
There was a case several years ago where a crewman  of  a  cruise<BR>
liner rented a TV for watching videos whilst away from home.  Not<BR>
only was the ship only in range of UK TV signals for  2  weeks  a<BR>
year, but his cabin was metal and  thus  incapable  of  receiving<BR>
signals at all.  He *still* required a licence.  Fortunately  for<BR>
him his Captain had a licence covering the whole ship  (including<BR>
his cabin) so for this reason (and this reason *only*) he was<BR>
exempt.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I wonder if plasma screens and LCD screens are detectable by<BR>
Detector Vans?  (Detector Vans hunt out  unlicenced  TVs.)  As  I<BR>
understand it they key off  the  radio  signals  emitted  by  the<BR>
picture tube.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > and has no written coherent constitution?<BR>
> Good Thing. It saves arguments.<BR>
<BR>
That's right, you can't argue about your rights if you don't have<BR>
any!<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:22:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:12 AM 2/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Someone (here?) mentioned a motto at a military training school,<BR>
>perhaps written over the door of the people who taught camoflage<BR>
>techniques:<BR>
><BR>
>"If they can see you, they can kill you. Hide!"<BR>
<BR>
Never seen that one, but outside the Orderly Room at Ranger Mountain Camp<BR>
in Georgia is a tombstone..<BR>
<BR>
"Here lie the bones<BR>
Of Ranger Jones<BR>
A graduate of this institution.<BR>
He died last night<BR>
In his first fire-fight<BR>
Using the School Solution.<BR>
<BR>
BE FLEXIBLE!"<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:18:56 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet wrote:<BR>
> This can be found in the "middle" Robots books (names escape <BR>
> me, sorry) of Asimov, after the three classic ones (I Robot,<BR>
> Caves of Steel, aaaand... ). <BR>
<BR>
You missed out "The Rest Of The Robots" which was a sequel to  "I<BR>
Robot" (and in recent years often sold  as  a  combined  volume).<BR>
I'm not sure but wasn't the sequel to "Caves Of Steel"  something<BR>
like "Robots Of Dawn"?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: (If no one's already suggested it - I triage half the TML<BR>
due to  time  constraints).  Scenario:  Imagine  a  world  (maybe<BR>
Ruie/Regina) buying a battalion of cheap war bots built from off-<BR>
the-shelf components (incl brain).  After taking any  damage  the<BR>
brains reset to their default programming ... which includes  the<BR>
3 (or  4)  Laws  of  Robotics.  Now  the  Ruie  military  have  a<BR>
battalion of pacifists war bots in a combat zone!<BR>
<BR>
Picture the scene ... a heavily armoured war bot, bristling  with<BR>
weapons,  assaults  an  Ine  Givar  gurrilla  strongpoint.   Upon<BR>
reaching the center of the gurrilla's camp  it  booms  out  "GIVE<BR>
PEACE A CHANCE!", followed by "Can't we  just  talk  about  this,<BR>
please?"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:20:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: JTAS copyrights<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevas wrote:<BR>
>Hmm, I wonder if plasma screens and LCD screens are detectable by <BR>
>Detector Vans?  (Detector Vans hunt out  unlicenced  TVs.)  As  I <BR>
>understand it they key off  the  radio  signals  emitted  by  the <BR>
>picture tube. <BR>
<BR>
How does the detector van distinguish the unlicensed TV's from the<BR>
multitudes of licensed TV's? I can see this working in suburban or<BR>
rural areas, where you have about one family per household, but<BR>
in apartment complexes and such it sounds pretty useless.<BR>
<BR>
It's such a big problem that they spend taxpayer money on these<BR>
vans? I agree, the UK makes no sense at all. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:22:34 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in there,<BR>
> and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
> Amendment right to peaceably assemble.<BR>
<BR>
See the 9th Amendment.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:25:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE:zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
>The latter was due to many cases of legal transferal of ownership, but<BR>
>re-possession of the vehicle by a lending organization, leaving the<BR>
>purchasers out of pocket with no car, and usually little chance of<BR>
>recovering it from the seller.<BR>
><BR>
I gotta say that this is unbelievable. Not that I don't believe you. It's<BR>
just that in the U.S. the papers on a car, the so called "pink slip" are<BR>
held by the holder of the lien. You can't sell the car, legally without the<BR>
pink slip. If you want to sell a car that you still owe money on the buyer<BR>
has to pay off the loan, give the difference to the seller and get the pink<BR>
slip from the lien holder. Doing it any other way means you don't own the<BR>
car. If the seller uses a fake pink slip to fool the buyer the buyer's out<BR>
of luck, but probably not criminally libel. Of course in most cases now days<BR>
the buyer is financing the purchase and his bank deals with the seller's<BR>
bank and they send the pink from one bank to the other.<BR>
<BR>
>Ob Trav is pretty obvious. Sell them that spacecraft and then have it<BR>
>repossessed by the debt collectors from the bank that originally covered<BR>
the<BR>
>loan...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I would expect this to only happen to PC's. No one else would buy a ship<BR>
without a TAS certification inspection. TAS would never recommend that a<BR>
buyer give the seller all of the price of a ship under lien. You always pay<BR>
the lien holder first so you can get full title. As a matter of fact I don't<BR>
expect a bank would loan you a mortgage on a ship unless they had the title<BR>
free and clear as collateral. Of course if you're a PC who has to get off<BR>
world quick or need a ship fast to make that killer deal you might not look<BR>
to hard at the ship that's selling way under market. Of course I wouldn't<BR>
expect a bank to loan you the money to buy a ship under these conditions, so<BR>
you better have cash.<BR>
<BR>
>Oh, and the fact that the paperwork was all in order and it was sold by a<BR>
>reputable dealer won't help, they didn't know the original seller was going<BR>
>to renege on paying back the loan, did they ?<BR>
<BR>
What kind of reputable dealer would sell a ship it didn't have the title to?<BR>
<BR>
As an aside: With ships taking thirty years to pay off they're much more<BR>
like house mortgages than car loans. In the U.S. (in many states at least)<BR>
one of the things that a debtor can do is place a lien against your house.<BR>
This often happens when a contractor does a repair on you dwelling and you<BR>
stiff him. He'll take his contract down to court and get a lien placed<BR>
against your house. Utility companies and the taxman can do the same. Now<BR>
when you sell it they get their money before you get yours. The problem?<BR>
Some banks (and other lenders) will not lend money to buy a house under<BR>
lien. So to push through the purchase the selling lien holder will<BR>
***suspend*** the liens during the purchase.<BR>
<BR>
What's supposed to happen then is the buyer pays the seller. The seller pays<BR>
off the liens and the house is free and clear to the lien holder of the<BR>
buyer. What sometimes happens is the seller keeps all the money. The liens<BR>
go back on the house and when the new owner goes to sell he finds that his<BR>
equity isn't worth beans because he has all these old liens on his house for<BR>
bills that he didn't accumulate and didn't even know about. Sometimes you<BR>
can get the lien's pulled, but if it's the taxman, look out, because momma<BR>
you're gonna pay that other guy's tax bill because Uncle Sam's not gonna eat<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:29:12 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
<BR>
From: <GypsyComet@aol.com><BR>
> >By custom, all independent robots are required to=20<BR>
> >incorporate at least the first and second of Dr. Asimov's laws=20<BR>
> >of robotics.  If you know where to look IMTU, you will find=20<BR>
> >planets inhabited by robots exclusively.  Every member of=20<BR>
> >these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.<BR>
><BR>
>     What is the fourth? I know just 3.<BR>
><BR>
> Probably  Law Zero:<BR>
>  "No Robot may harm Humanity, or through inaction allow Humanity to come<BR>
to<BR>
> harm."<BR>
><BR>
>  This can be found in the "middle" Robots books (names escape me, sorry)<BR>
of<BR>
> Asimov, after the three classic ones (I Robot, Caves of Steel,<BR>
aaaand... ).<BR>
> They were written much later to tie the original triple trilogy (Robots -<BR>
> Empire - Foundation) together.<BR>
>  In a Traveller world setting that was all robots, the Zero Law (and the<BR>
> First, for that matter) may well change targets. Depending on how much<BR>
> knowledge and access the robots have regarding the worlds beyond, they may<BR>
> apply these laws to  just themselves (Humanity and Humans are replaced by<BR>
> "Us"), or the Laws may spread to include all "sentient life". Staying<BR>
focused<BR>
> on Humaniti is also possible...<BR>
<BR>
Yep, that's it.  The Zeroth Law.<BR>
<BR>
The ones that are manufactured by humans can be<BR>
programmed to recognize only humans as humans the ones<BR>
that are manufactured by robots will be programmed to follow<BR>
whatever conventions they have developed.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:01:16 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE Tech Prog and SocImp<BR>
<BR>
At 19:01 -0500 14/2/00, "Hughes, Michael" <BR>
<Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> wrote:<BR>
>However frankly I can see the advantages of a wider gene-pool than that of<BR>
>local village. Especially in UK places like the, ahem, North, Wales and<BR>
<BR>
The North! The NORTH? Eh lad, we got greet big conurbations oop here; <BR>
Liddypool, Manchester, Leeds, Bradford, etc....<BR>
<BR>
>Cornwall . . . (Cornwall from whence mah family came) - or places where<BR>
>dueling banjos is a respected pastime.<BR>
<BR>
Ahh, you mean home of the League of Gentlemen?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:34:44 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> >Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
> >to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
><BR>
> Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is no such<BR>
> right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't say it was listed.  I said it was guaranteed.  Just like<BR>
the right to privacy and the right to education.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:47:34 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS copyrights<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
> How does the detector van distinguish the unlicensed TV's from the<BR>
> multitudes of licensed TV's? I can see this working in suburban or<BR>
> rural areas, where you have about one family per household, but<BR>
> in apartment complexes and such it sounds pretty useless.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure ... I do know the detection range is  fairly  short,<BR>
and they cross-reference the list of TV purchasers + TV renters +<BR>
previous licence payers with the list of current  licence  payers<BR>
to narrow down the search.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> It's such a big problem that they spend taxpayer money on these<BR>
> vans? I agree, the UK makes no sense at all. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Given that a licence is currently GBP 101.00 per  household  they<BR>
can't afford  too  many  people  not  paying.  The  risk  of  the<BR>
Detector Vans, GBP 1000.00 fines,  and  an  advertising  campaign<BR>
probably scares most people into paying the fee rather  than  get<BR>
caught.  It could all be a trick but who's going to risk it?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:22:13 +1100<BR>
From: "David Healey" <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Guys with bad names<BR>
<BR>
On 09 Feb 2000, was spake :<BR>
<BR>
*****<BR>
There's a doctor here in Calgary whose last name is Doctor. Doctor Joel<BR>
Doctor. He's an allergy specialist. <BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, I wonder what his career decision thinking went like when he was<BR>
in school ...<BR>
*****<BR>
<BR>
I used to deal with a Doctor in Sydney who ran a major department in a major hospital there.  Name was Doctor Richard Head.  I kid you not.  In a similar vein, I ran across an article years ago about an Aussie tourist murdered in New York by a chap whose name was William Joseph Wanker.  One hopes he never shortened his name to Willy .....<BR>
<BR>
Dave (who's only 35 Digests behind)<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             !<BR>
       <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:45:22 CST6CDT<BR>
From: igor@truserve.com<BR>
Subject: FF&S2 Spreadsheet Available: New Version!<BR>
<BR>
Yes, its been over a year, but due to the bug that was re-pointed out to me <BR>
today, I've posted version 3.3 of my Fire, Fusion, & Steel (v2) spreadsheet to <BR>
my Traveller website:<BR>
<BR>
  http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
The files can be found in the depot section.<BR>
<BR>
People may notice that there are no new features in this version - and only one <BR>
bug fix (the before mentioned grav compensator bug). I had wanted to eventually <BR>
add more feautres to the sheet - Battle Riders stats, Brilliant Lances stats, <BR>
multi-tech level on weapons, etc...but I have simply been too busy with other <BR>
projects - many Traveller related (more on that later).<BR>
<BR>
As a result, I am feature-locking the spreadsheet indefinately. I still want to <BR>
hear about bugs, if there are any, but I'm pretty much going to ignore requests <BR>
for features (like I have for the past year) until I get more time.<BR>
<BR>
To everyone that has used, and enjoyed the spreadsheet, thank you for your <BR>
support and kind comments. And stay tuned - I plan on doing more...<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+<BR>
| Andrew Akins                                                       |<BR>
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/igor/            |<BR>
| Work: andya@cms-ia.com - http://www.cms-ia.com/                    |<BR>
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+<BR>
| IMTU: tg++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |<BR>
|       vi+ da+                                                      |<BR>
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |<BR>
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |<BR>
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________<BR>
True Communications Corporation Your Premier ISP.<BR>
"Hometown Service with Worldwide Connectivity"<BR>
http://www.truserve.com        info@truserve.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1925<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1926</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1926<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
re:  Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
Re: TL of troops <BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
RE:zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright) <BR>
Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social ImpactStatements<BR>
re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song  <BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Personal networking, etc<BR>
Re: Personal networking, etc<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Imperial Law  and Jurisdiction<BR>
Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social ImpactStatements  <BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
re: a real world example<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:05:54 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
 <BR>
> What's supposed to happen then is the buyer pays the seller. The seller pays<BR>
> off the liens and the house is free and clear to the lien holder of the<BR>
> buyer. What sometimes happens is the seller keeps all the money. The liens<BR>
> go back on the house and when the new owner goes to sell he finds that his<BR>
> equity isn't worth beans because he has all these old liens on his house for<BR>
> bills that he didn't accumulate and didn't even know about. Sometimes you<BR>
> can get the lien's pulled, but if it's the taxman, look out, because momma<BR>
> you're gonna pay that other guy's tax bill because Uncle Sam's not gonna eat<BR>
> it.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Ouch!<BR>
<BR>
This is why everything is handled by a Title Company, and the buyer pays<BR>
for title insurance. When we bought our house, the only money we ever<BR>
held in our hot little hands was our down payment. <BR>
<BR>
No money entered the sellers hands until AFTER their lien holders took<BR>
their cut. This way it's the title insurance company who takes the hit<BR>
for any undiscovered or unpaid liens on the property. In fact, my<BR>
mortgage lender didn't even give me the option, merely told me how many<BR>
points were paid for title insurance out of this.<BR>
<BR>
If the whole shebang went south, we might have been out our down<BR>
payment, though we'd certainly have grounds for suing the title company<BR>
(who _we_ paid to make sure everything was cleared up) for losses and<BR>
damages.<BR>
<BR>
Now if the seller and buyer are trying to do cash-only, and aren't<BR>
willing to pay the points to the Title Co. for assuming those risks,<BR>
well, caveat emptor and all that. <BR>
<BR>
Me I'll pay the points to the title company and sleep well at night<BR>
knowing my bank has free and clear title to the house they graciously<BR>
let us live in ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:11:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Here's one I've been working on...first draft, you know.<BR>
>The Traveller Munchkin's Song(Based on "The Moonshiner", Irish<BR>
>traditional)<BR>
<BR>
Bravo!!!  excellent!! more!!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:22:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
>When I was in the US Army I used to know the capabilities and <BR>
>limitations of all of the Russian equipment. What the effective<BR>
<BR>
>ranges of all of their weapons were, how much they could <BR>
>elevate or depress their guns, the effective ranges of our <BR>
>weapons against their systems, and so on. Can you imagine<BR>
>Imperial troops knowing this type of imformation about all of <BR>
>their potential adversaries?<BR>
<BR>
1) Imperial troops don't have to know it all the time, as long<BR>
as one of their computers knows it.  The information can then be<BR>
disseminated quickly to small unit officers and even individual<BR>
soldiers.  It's not as good as knowing it by using it regularly,<BR>
but it's a lot better than nothing, especially if short-term<BR>
memory can be enhanced by training and pharmaceuticals.<BR>
<BR>
2) Imperial troops will know this type of information about the<BR>
adversaries they expect to deal with, which will be a relatively<BR>
small number.  E.g., Imperial Marines stationed on Efate will<BR>
know lots about the Zhodani and certain Vargr forces (Kforuzeng,<BR>
44th Squadron, probably Rukh).  They will probably know a lot<BR>
about the various Sword Worlds and the Darrians.  They will<BR>
probably not know much, if anything, about the Solomani<BR>
Confederation forces, or the K'Kree, Hivers, or even Aslan. On<BR>
the other hand, if a unit gets sent to a different region, part<BR>
of its training en route will be familiarization with enemy<BR>
equipment and doctrine. <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:27:08 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
>    Do you Kiwi's have an airforce? Ha! And sheep might fly!   <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
They don't so much fly as plummet, actually.<BR>
<BR>
That makes them very well suited to use as "livefall" ordnance. <BR>
Their terrified bleating on the way down would strike terror<BR>
into the hearts of ground troops, and of course they will make a<BR>
horrible biohazard mess upon or within a few days after impact. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
They should not be used against forces who consider mutton<BR>
(especially _very_ tender mutton) a delicacy.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:31:32 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: misspellings -- with maybe an ob Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
[snip]<BR>
>In the Far Future, I think we'll all communicate a little like<BR>
>the Hivers, with immediate electronic transfers of some<BR>
>information to avoid ambiguity.  So if you and I are standing on<BR>
>the street and I ask you to contact me later at a certain time<BR>
>at a certain address (electronic or whatever), I'll transmit the<BR>
>specifics to you in text form by some kind of electronic medium,<BR>
>whether embedded in a business card or by radio or laser signal<BR>
>from my date book to yours.<BR>
<BR>
This is done commonly now.  The Infrared 'beaming' feature of Palm PDAs and <BR>
their Handspring counterparts.<BR>
You can set a default 'business card' entry which is automatically beamed <BR>
when you hold the phone list button down for two seconds.<BR>
You send pretty much anything you want over the infrared, including <BR>
appointment information, pictures or text files.<BR>
<BR>
In T4, 'business rings' are described.  These rings are part of your PAN <BR>
(Personal Area Network, see the URL at the end of the message) and contain <BR>
your contact info.  When two of these rings come in close proximity (such <BR>
as shaking hands), they swap information.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.ibm.com/stories/1996/11/pan_main.html<BR>
<BR>
Related links:<BR>
http://wearables.www.media.mit.edu/projects/wearables/<BR>
http://www.ibutton.com/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
Our users will know fear and cower before our software. Ship it! Ship it<BR>
and let them flee like the dogs they are! -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:40:12 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 2:44:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< >Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
 >to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
 <BR>
 Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is no such<BR>
 right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
 >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It was read in, kind of like abortion only with some actual textual <BR>
foundation.<BR>
<BR>
The idea is that interstate commerce requires free and unrestricted travel.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:48:02 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE:zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright) <BR>
<BR>
What actually happens is that the title insurance company gets the shaft, <BR>
pays up, and goes after the former owner in court if he has any money left.<BR>
That's why you pay so much at a home closing. That's also why all those <BR>
single moms spend so much time at the county records room with those notepads <BR>
or laptops, they are working for a title company [or are paralegals on a <BR>
case].<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 2:44:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< As an aside: With ships taking thirty years to pay off they're much more<BR>
 like house mortgages than car loans. In the U.S. (in many states at least)<BR>
 one of the things that a debtor can do is place a lien against your house.<BR>
 This often happens when a contractor does a repair on you dwelling and you<BR>
 stiff him. He'll take his contract down to court and get a lien placed<BR>
 against your house. Utility companies and the taxman can do the same. Now<BR>
 when you sell it they get their money before you get yours. The problem?<BR>
 Some banks (and other lenders) will not lend money to buy a house under<BR>
 lien. So to push through the purchase the selling lien holder will<BR>
 ***suspend*** the liens during the purchase.<BR>
 <BR>
 What's supposed to happen then is the buyer pays the seller. The seller pays<BR>
 off the liens and the house is free and clear to the lien holder of the<BR>
 buyer. What sometimes happens is the seller keeps all the money. The liens<BR>
 go back on the house and when the new owner goes to sell he finds that his<BR>
 equity isn't worth beans because he has all these old liens on his house for<BR>
 bills that he didn't accumulate and didn't even know about. Sometimes you<BR>
 can get the lien's pulled, but if it's the taxman, look out, because momma<BR>
 you're gonna pay that other guy's tax bill because Uncle Sam's not gonna eat<BR>
 it.<BR>
 <BR>
 >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:43:49 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social ImpactStatements<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
someone else wrote:<BR>
>> Heck, most teenagers *today* would walk two or three miles<BR>
>>for sex without thinking twice, if they had to.<BR>
<BR>
What teenagers do you know?  The only ones I know would blanch<BR>
at the prospect of a two-mile walk for any reason (even though<BR>
they're in excellent physical condition).  I think they'd much<BR>
prefer to be driven to a make-out spot and picked up when<BR>
they're done -- and please leave the car there.  <BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
>The term back in the 1800s was "sparking". A boy would go out<BR>
>"sparking" with a girl. <BR>
<BR>
This probably comes from the spark of electricity between two<BR>
people in dry, cold weather.  It made kissing a riskier<BR>
business.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:52:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song  <BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>Bravo!!!  excellent!! more!! <BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<blush><BR>
Thanks Glenn - my first try at a filk, I'll see what<BR>
I can do for the future.<BR>
<BR>
<Scene of curly-haired poppet in Impie Marine Combat<BR>
Armor dancing>..."On the gooood ship, Kinuinir, ..."<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:44:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:22 AM 2/15/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>> There is also no Constitutional right to free travel.<BR>
<BR>
>See the 9th Amendment.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't really apply, since it just says "anything we forget, don't assume<BR>
that it's not covered." You can't point at the 9th to state that there is a<BR>
Constitutional right to free travel.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:58:22 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Personal networking, etc<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This is done commonly now.  The Infrared 'beaming' feature of Palm PDAs<BR>
and<BR>
> their Handspring counterparts.<BR>
> You can set a default 'business card' entry which is automatically beamed<BR>
> when you hold the phone list button down for two seconds.<BR>
> You send pretty much anything you want over the infrared, including<BR>
> appointment information, pictures or text files.<BR>
><BR>
> In T4, 'business rings' are described.  These rings are part of your PAN<BR>
> (Personal Area Network, see the URL at the end of the message) and contain<BR>
> your contact info.  When two of these rings come in close proximity (such<BR>
> as shaking hands), they swap information.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
As a user of this technology (IR beaming, Java Ring with businiess card<BR>
applet, etc) I am constantly frustrated when other people are not using the<BR>
technology. If we all have the gadgets, it's great, but when some people<BR>
don't, it's a real pain.<BR>
<BR>
The worst part of this technology, including the IBM PAN, is that it's only<BR>
TL8! Imagine what TL13 is like. It seems like the T4 business rings were<BR>
even too low-tech, since you don't even need the rings to come close.<BR>
<BR>
This is the big problem with the Traveller universe: we really have no idea<BR>
of how technology will progress. Even in areas which are interesting from<BR>
the game POV, we probably aren't even close. Most of the capabilities of the<BR>
Traveller ACR will be real in 2002 or so. What will TL10 weapons really be<BR>
like? We can dream, but we are probably wrong.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that we tend to vastly underestimate the capabilities of<BR>
advanced TL technologies. The conservative nature of the Traveller fans who<BR>
blindly accept a vision of the future which was established in the 70's (I<BR>
am one of these people.) probably doesn't help things.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:20:02 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Personal networking, etc<BR>
<BR>
Hmm..I wonder if GM is actually working on a prototype Bolo?  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 3:58 PM<BR>
Subject: Personal networking, etc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > This is done commonly now.  The Infrared 'beaming' feature of Palm PDAs<BR>
> and<BR>
> > their Handspring counterparts.<BR>
> > You can set a default 'business card' entry which is automatically<BR>
beamed<BR>
> > when you hold the phone list button down for two seconds.<BR>
> > You send pretty much anything you want over the infrared, including<BR>
> > appointment information, pictures or text files.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > In T4, 'business rings' are described.  These rings are part of your PAN<BR>
> > (Personal Area Network, see the URL at the end of the message) and<BR>
contain<BR>
> > your contact info.  When two of these rings come in close proximity<BR>
(such<BR>
> > as shaking hands), they swap information.<BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:13:19 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
Leading us, of course, right back to "Tuuurks in Spaaaaace" ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
> >    Do you Kiwi's have an airforce? Ha! And sheep might fly!<BR>
> <BR>
> They don't so much fly as plummet, actually.<BR>
> <BR>
> That makes them very well suited to use as "livefall" ordnance.<BR>
> Their terrified bleating on the way down would strike terror<BR>
> into the hearts of ground troops, and of course they will make a<BR>
> horrible biohazard mess upon or within a few days after impact.<BR>
> <BR>
> They should not be used against forces who consider mutton<BR>
> (especially _very_ tender mutton) a delicacy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:16:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
GaryBartz@aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> It was read in, kind of like abortion only with some actual textual <BR>
> foundation.<BR>
> <BR>
> The idea is that interstate commerce requires free and unrestricted travel.<BR>
> <BR>
Given that the courts have not since overturned the ability of the states to<BR>
license vehicles, one assumes that the court's interpretation of this right<BR>
is not enormously broad.  In any case, the constitution doesn't require<BR>
completely free interstate commerce, it just doesn't allow taxing or <BR>
preferential treatment, and gives the federal government the ability to<BR>
regulate interstate commerce. <BR>
<BR>
Note that the state cannot in fact regulate driving on the interstates without<BR>
the permission of the federal government.  As such, presumably the federal<BR>
government recognizes state driver licenses, as you cannot drive on an<BR>
interstate without a license.  I suspect that states cannot legally refuse<BR>
to recognize a driver's license from another state, however.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:20:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Imperial Law  and Jurisdiction<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
>Subject: Imperial Law  and Jurisdiction<BR>
<BR>
>On the imperial law question where would the jurisdiction lie<BR>
>if a crime was committed on a vessel registered in say the <BR>
>Aslan Hierate, Solomani Confederation etc but which was in <BR>
>imperial space, whether jump or normal.<BR>
><BR>
>What about if the ship was in imperial space when the crime <BR>
>was committed but in another states territory when it re-<BR>
>entered normal space, which could be a third state as well.<BR>
><BR>
>IMHO this scenario is likely to have occurred so there should<BR>
>be procedures to deal with it. Any ideas.<BR>
<BR>
This is indeed a very likely set of scenarios. Here's how I<BR>
handle them in general.<BR>
<BR>
What law applies aboard a ship in jump space?<BR>
<BR>
Jumping between two Imperial members:  Law of the destination<BR>
member, except that Imperial law preempts any local law<BR>
regarding ship operations, safety, etc., unless otherwise<BR>
provided by treaty.  (See discussion, infra, "Registry of the<BR>
ship...")<BR>
<BR>
Jumping between Imperial member and non-Imperial polity:  Per<BR>
treaty between Imperium and the other state; Imperial member's<BR>
law usually applies in treaties with small polities, but<BR>
destination law usually applies in treaties with large states. <BR>
One nuance in some of these treaties is that when a ship is<BR>
jumping from the Imperium to the world of its registry, that<BR>
world's law may apply even if the treaty provides for<BR>
application of Imperial member's law.<BR>
<BR>
Jumping between Imperial installation and Imperial member: <BR>
Member's law.<BR>
<BR>
Jumping between Imperial installation and non-Imperial polity: <BR>
Per treaty between Imperium and the other state; Imperial law<BR>
usually applies in treaties with small polities, but destination<BR>
law usually applies in treaties with large states.  <BR>
<BR>
Registry of the ship is generally immaterial.  Any ship of<BR>
non-Imperial registry operating within Imperial space (i.e.,<BR>
jumping to an Imperial member, in normal space within a Imperial<BR>
member's star system, etc.) usually must abide by Imperial and<BR>
Imperial member law according to treaty (which may provide some<BR>
exceptions -- e.g., the treaty with the Zhodani provides that<BR>
ships in one another's space do not have to follow the safety<BR>
regulations in place there as long as they are following their<BR>
own state's regulations; the underlying reasoning is that the<BR>
Zhodani and Imperium trust each other's safety standards).  <BR>
<BR>
>After the Solomani rim war did the imperium still claim the <BR>
>Solomani Confederation as part of its territory. If so would <BR>
>the imperium ever have tried to enforce jurisdiction on <BR>
>Solomani vessels crossing the border, and if so given the touch<BR>
<BR>
>relations, would the Solomani have responded with extra customs<BR>
<BR>
>inspections, more regulations against imperial registered<BR>
>vessels operating in their space?<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium has learned pragmatism from the Vilani, but these<BR>
issues are used for political purposes by both sides as they<BR>
perceive them necessary.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:18:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Technological Progression Rates and Social ImpactStatements  <BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>What teenagers do you know?  The only ones I know would blanch <BR>
>at the prospect of a two-mile walk for any reason (even though <BR>
>they're in excellent physical condition).  I think they'd much <BR>
>prefer to be driven to a make-out spot and picked up when <BR>
>they're done -- and please leave the car there.  <BR>
<BR>
Well, I *did* spend my teenage years in upstate New York,<BR>
where we grow more cows than people. :-)<BR>
<BR>
(The region of Marcy, NY, about fifteen miles south of here,<BR>
had the reputation a couple decades ago of producing more<BR>
dairy products per square mile than any other place on Earth.)<BR>
<BR>
Now, if these teens you know had never seen a car, do you<BR>
think they'd be so reticent? Especially if home entertainment<BR>
devices - stereos, televisions, telephones - hadn't been<BR>
invented yet? Stay home and muck out the barn, or walk two<BR>
miles and spend private time with a member of the opposite<BR>
sex...hmmmmm...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:33:09 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
"Jason T. Barnabas" wrote:<BR>
> > >Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
> > >to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.  A right may<BR>
> > >not be infringed nor regulated by legal code.  Yet, every state<BR>
> > >that I have checked on has a "law" requiring drivers to be<BR>
> > >licenced.<BR>
> > -------------------------------------------<BR>
> > And this infringes your right to travel how?<BR>
> <BR>
> By regulating it.  The attempted regulation is the<BR>
> infringement.  The attempt to dilute or lessen the right is the<BR>
> infringement.<BR>
<BR>
But you still have the right to travel! You don't (I hope, as that would<BR>
cause hundreds of kids to be on the road) have a constitutional right to<BR>
drive a vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
> > I agree, in most circumstances you can clearly demonstrate an<BR>
> > obvious ability eg driving in a straight line, coming to a slow<BR>
> > stop, straight forward steering, etc. But the license demonstates<BR>
> > you have achieve a measured, standardised competence in, among<BR>
> > other things, emergency stops, awareness of other road users,<BR>
> > rights of way etc...<BR>
> <BR>
> The licence demonstrates none of these things.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know about US driving licences, but driving licences in Sweden<BR>
(and Germany, Norway, England, probably more countries) are only given<BR>
to people who demonstrate these abilities. If US driving licences work<BR>
in a radically different way, I am surprised. The whole purpose of a<BR>
driving licence is to prove that you are not a danger to yourself or<BR>
others while driving.<BR>
<BR>
> Okay, make a big joke out of it.  Yes, I see your imoticons, so<BR>
> I know this is an attempt at humor.  However, on a serious<BR>
> note, my rights end where the other guys' begin, so if I were<BR>
> to do the things you specify, I would be violating someone<BR>
> else's rights and that is a crime.<BR>
<BR>
That is the problem with driving without a licence to do so. You have<BR>
not proven that you are not a danger to others nearby. Therefore, you<BR>
cannot be allowed to drive, since that might harm other people. This is<BR>
true unless you mean to drive on a large, empty field, but that is<BR>
hardly anyone's idea of useful driving.<BR>
<BR>
> I can't speak for "Americans in general."  However, as a<BR>
> private person, I was not aware that "much of the rest of the<BR>
> world" looked at America "with stunned bemusement."  From<BR>
> my interactions with people from many parts of the world, I<BR>
> doubt that it is in fact true.  Perhaps I am wrong but I doubt it.<BR>
<BR>
Most if not all of my friends (here in Sweden) are partially amused,<BR>
partially bewildred (spl?) when the US is concerned. The same is true<BR>
for most (90+ %) of the other Europeans (perhaps 50 of them, ages 15 to<BR>
40+) I have spoken to on this topic.<BR>
<BR>
> I never said anything about fascism and you haven't shown<BR>
> how the lack of a licence (which is what I was talking about),<BR>
> constitutes a source of danger.<BR>
<BR>
A person who doesn't have a licence might still be a great driver, but<BR>
he/she hasn't proved it to anyone. Therefore, the state cannot allow<BR>
that person to drive, since doing so *might* be dangerous to others.<BR>
<BR>
> No one has a _right_ to be a lawyer.  If you don't<BR>
> believe me, ask Bloo.  Everyone has the right to study the<BR>
> law* because everyone has a right to defend themselves*.<BR>
> Again, if you don't believe me ask Bloo.<BR>
> <BR>
>   * Applies in America, elsewhere, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
This "defend myself" logic is one of the things that non-Americans find<BR>
strange. In Sweden you never have the right to kill someone. You might<BR>
get away with killing someone who would otherwise clearly have killed<BR>
you (or someone else), but probably not if another solution was<BR>
available.<BR>
<BR>
Even in Sweden, everyone has the right to study anything they want.<BR>
Since the number of places in every given school/university/class etc is<BR>
limited, the places generally go to those applicants with the best<BR>
grades from the most recent education they had (three-year periods in<BR>
general). If a person cannot afford to study (moving to another town<BR>
might be too expensive, etc), the state steps in and funds that person.<BR>
This is a much more friendly system that that of the US, at least IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
 Linkoeping, Sweden<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:42:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: a real world example<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
>That is the problem with driving without a licence to do so. You have <BR>
>not proven that you are not a danger to others nearby. Therefore, you <BR>
>cannot be allowed to drive, since that might harm other people. This is <BR>
>true unless you mean to drive on a large, empty field, but that is <BR>
>hardly anyone's idea of useful driving. <BR>
<BR>
This strikes me as kind of funny. <BR>
<BR>
In rural America, a large percentage of kids learn how to <BR>
drive in "large, empty fields" - driving tractors, cars and pickup<BR>
trucks on farms and ranches. Very useful driving, by the way.<BR>
<BR>
A driver's license is not required to drive on private property, <BR>
and there are many Americans who own farms that are miles across.<BR>
There are even American who own farms that are much, much larger<BR>
than this. I don't think there are many people in Europe who<BR>
have this situation, so I can see how a European would think<BR>
that being able to drive as long as you weren't on a public road<BR>
was useless.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:05:16 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > No one has a _right_ to be a lawyer.  If you don't<BR>
> > believe me, ask Bloo.  Everyone has the right to study the<BR>
> > law* because everyone has a right to defend themselves*.<BR>
> > Again, if you don't believe me ask Bloo.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   * Applies in America, elsewhere, YMMV.<BR>
> <BR>
> This "defend myself" logic is one of the things that non-Americans find<BR>
> strange. In Sweden you never have the right to kill someone. You might<BR>
> get away with killing someone who would otherwise clearly have killed<BR>
> you (or someone else), but probably not if another solution was<BR>
> available.<BR>
<BR>
While I find it strange that defense of life is not a valid legal reason<BR>
to use deadly force in Sweden, what Jason is actually speaking of is<BR>
that under the US legal system, we have the right to defend ourselves in<BR>
a court of law, ie: act as our own attorney, address the court,<BR>
cross-examine witnesses, etc. And, as the old saying goes, someone<BR>
defending themselves generally has a fool for a client.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why, without training, or with only a partial knowledge of the<BR>
law, people are lead to the rather strange legal theories such as:<BR>
'Requiring a license to drive a vehicle on public roadways requires a<BR>
license' equates to 'restricting the constitutional right to free<BR>
travel'.<BR>
<BR>
It ain't so, and never has been. All that that right means is the the<BR>
state cannot restrict _where_ you may travel by legal means, not the<BR>
means themselves. If the state regulates the legal means in such a<BR>
fashion as to impinge on your right to travel, then it is<BR>
unconstitutional.<BR>
<BR>
While you may disagree with the state's requirement for a drivers<BR>
license, it is still a legally and constitutionally valid requirement<BR>
for operating a motor vehicle on public roadways.<BR>
<BR>
Note the careful distinction: _public_ roadways. If you own a private<BR>
road, you may drive anything you want with or without a license. Were<BR>
you to so wish, and had enough money to buy the requisite land, you<BR>
could, in theory, build your own, private network of interstate<BR>
highways, and drive your unlicenced self anywhere you wished, and the<BR>
state, either in the form of the Federal or local state authority cannot<BR>
prevent you from doing so. <BR>
<BR>
(Though recent SC decisions regarding states rights might put a  kink<BR>
into that plan...they have ruled that the Constitution, and federal laws<BR>
in particular do not necessarily apply to state governments. I don't<BR>
remember the exact date, but the ruling involved workers compensation<BR>
for state employees)<BR>
<BR>
BUT the state has an obligation to provide for the safety of it's<BR>
citizens; requiring testing and licensing of drivers is one means of<BR>
doing so, and is no more unconstitutional than federal regulations on<BR>
the trucking industry (weight, brakes, hours of operation, etc) are<BR>
unconstitutional interference with interstate commerce. Which<BR>
regulation, btw, the actual arbiters of constitutional law in the US<BR>
(The Supreme Court) has upheld again and again.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1926<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1927<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Constitutional right to travel (was: Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Re ST [ot]<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1920<BR>
driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
Re: TL of troops<BR>
Re: Travel Limitations int he US and the 3I<BR>
re:  Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:12:26 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Constitutional right to travel (was: Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:44:14 -0500 (EST), "Douglas E. Berry"<BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 11:16 AM 2/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
>>to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
<BR>
>Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is no such<BR>
>right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
<BR>
Edwards v California (312 US 473 [1941]); California tried to bar<BR>
the 'Okie' migrants at the border, and the Court decided that it<BR>
was an unconstitutional infringement on a right to travel.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:24:02 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:44:14 -0500 (EST), GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>By custom, all independent robots are required to=20<BR>
>>incorporate at least the first and second of Dr. Asimov's laws=20<BR>
>>of robotics.  If you know where to look IMTU, you will find=20<BR>
>>planets inhabited by robots exclusively.  Every member of=20<BR>
>>these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.<BR>
<BR>
>    What is the fourth? I know just 3.<BR>
<BR>
>Probably  Law Zero:<BR>
> "No Robot may harm Humanity, or through inaction allow Humanity to come to <BR>
>harm."<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  The other three are the 'classical' Three Laws:<BR>
<BR>
I. A robot may not harm a human being, nor through inaction,<BR>
allow a human being to come to harm.<BR>
<BR>
II. A robot must follow the orders of a human being, except where<BR>
doing so would conflict with the First Law.<BR>
<BR>
III. A robot must preserve its own existence, except where doing<BR>
so would conflict with the First or Second Laws.<BR>
<BR>
> This can be found in the "middle" Robots books (names escape me, sorry) of <BR>
>Asimov, after the three classic ones (I Robot, Caves of Steel, aaaand... ). <BR>
>They were written much later to tie the original triple trilogy (Robots - <BR>
>Empire - Foundation) together.<BR>
<BR>
You may be thinking of the Elijah Baley/R. Daneel Olivaw series,<BR>
which did _not_ include "I, Robot".  That series was "The Caves<BR>
of Steel", "The Naked Sun", and "The Robots of Dawn"; the<BR>
establishment of the "Zeroth Law" cited above and the first part<BR>
of the connection to the Galactic Empire novels (representative<BR>
novel: "The Stars, Like Dust") and the Foundation series was<BR>
"Robots and Empire"; the connection was completed in "Foundation<BR>
and Earth".<BR>
<BR>
> In a Traveller world setting that was all robots, the Zero Law (and the <BR>
>First, for that matter) may well change targets. Depending on how much <BR>
>knowledge and access the robots have regarding the worlds beyond, they may <BR>
>apply these laws to  just themselves (Humanity and Humans are replaced by <BR>
>"Us"), or the Laws may spread to include all "sentient life". Staying focused <BR>
>on Humaniti is also possible...<BR>
<BR>
Something like this happened in (I believe) Robots and Empire, in<BR>
which Aurora was apparently "deserted", but the robots had been<BR>
'programmed' to recognize as human only those humans from Aurora<BR>
(or, because of the way the definition was set up, those who<BR>
could flawlessly mimic an Auroran accent).<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:30:51 -0600<BR>
From: Bill Dunn <bdunn@epicsystems.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
You're looking at the US Constitution the wrong way. Rather than giving<BR>
rights to the people, the US Constitutions lays out what the Federal<BR>
government is empowered to do. The Federal government is not empowered to<BR>
restrict travel (at least not without due process), hence, the right of<BR>
travel is a retained right. The 9th Amendment serves to remind us that the<BR>
other rights in the Bill of Rights is a non-exhaustive list (though at times<BR>
people seem to think it is). Freedom of Speech is no more a Constitutional<BR>
right than freedom of travel, it just happens to be one of the<BR>
clarifications requested by the original states in return for ratification<BR>
(unless, of course, you consider that the definition of a Constitutional<BR>
right... one that happened to be enumerated). It is no more 'given' by the<BR>
Constitution than is the right to breathe.<BR>
- ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 11:44:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:22 AM 2/15/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>> There is also no Constitutional right to free travel.<BR>
<BR>
>See the 9th Amendment.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't really apply, since it just says "anything we forget, don't assume<BR>
that it's not covered." You can't point at the 9th to state that there is a<BR>
Constitutional right to free travel.<BR>
- - -- <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:45:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Jason Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
>>>>Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month<BR>
>>> pre-mature...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Why?  My momma says that first born children are usually<BR>
>>premature.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Aren't there some societies where a man won't marry a woman unless<BR>
> he can get her pregnant first? Just to insure a supply of heirs?<BR>
><BR>
> (I may be channeling misremembered Heinlein as history, though. <G>)<BR>
<BR>
Try most European "peasants"...<BR>
<BR>
Also, "infertility" (which seemed to always be assumed to be the<BR>
*wife's* fault, unless she could prove otherwise) was grounds for a<BR>
divorce. I think even the Catholic Church tended to allow that.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:51:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > My understanding of ST's replicator technology is that it<BR>
>> > cannot create matter, but only rearrange what it has<BR>
>> > available.<BR>
>><BR>
>> That is *not* at all clear from the TV episodes. In fact, if anything,<BR>
>> I get the impression that they *can* easily transmute elements.<BR>
><BR>
> Transmutation of elements is not creation of matter.  And<BR>
> which episode(s) gave you this impression?<BR>
<BR>
If they *couldn't*, then Voyager (for one) would constantly have to be<BR>
finding replacement elements for the rarer elements used in things like<BR>
shuttlecraft.<BR>
<BR>
Instead, they seem to only need hydrogen, dilithium, and maybe an<BR>
occasional anti-matter recharge.<BR>
<BR>
>> > In one of the novels in order to get sufficient CHON<BR>
>> > for a large replication project they had to pick up a great deal<BR>
>> > of matter from an Oort Cloud snowball.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The novels aren't "official".<BR>
><BR>
> According to whom?<BR>
<BR>
Paramount for one. they explicitly state that things that happen in the<BR>
novels are *not* official. And most fans agree.<BR>
<BR>
>> > Even from ST:OS we know that complex things like blood cannot be<BR>
>> > replicated, at least not blood that would be usable as blood was<BR>
>> > intended to be use by the body.<BR>
>><BR>
>> ST:TOS did not *have* replicators. Period.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Best evidence is in "The Trouble with Tribbles" where the *food<BR>
>> dispensers* disgorge plates and cups with tribbles in them instead of<BR>
>> food. The tribbles got into the automated food processing gear and eat<BR>
>> the food before it got dumped on the trays.<BR>
>><BR>
>> With replicators, that wouldn't be *possible*.<BR>
><BR>
> That's true; however as someone else has noted, ST is<BR>
> well known for altering the tech for the greatest dramatic<BR>
> effect.  If TOS had no replicators, then why did they stick data<BR>
> sticks into the machinery when they needed something<BR>
> special?  If those things weren't data sticks, then what were<BR>
> they and why were the inserted?<BR>
<BR>
We only see the "food dispensers" in a *very* few episodes. My thoughts<BR>
would go more along the lines of them being an ID "chip" so the ship's<BR>
computer can inform the medical officer if someone isn't eating right,<BR>
or a food preferences database. Stick it in, and you can punch buttons<BR>
to select from your favorite meals, or just hit the "pick something<BR>
random that I'll like" button.<BR>
<BR>
>> > ST has also had some trouble keeping to its cannon.  In<BR>
>> > some episodes, we are lead to believe that everyone has<BR>
>> > everything they want, and yet we see Quark trying to get as<BR>
>> > much pressed latinum (especially gold pressed latinum)<BR>
>> > wherever, whenever and however he can.  It must be good<BR>
>> > for something, or he wouldn't work so hard for it.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Simple. *His* culture (and many others) has a market economy. Earth<BR>
>> doesn't.<BR>
><BR>
> How do you explain Jake Sisco's dad's restaurant?  Mr. Sisco<BR>
> charges for meals.<BR>
<BR>
Oh? Where is that established?<BR>
<BR>
>> Again, you are using books as evidence, since the TV episodes and<BR>
>> movies do *not* tell us *anything* about Yeoman Rand's background.<BR>
>> This is a bad habit.<BR>
><BR>
> It has been a very long time since I have seen any of TOS.<BR>
><BR>
> But IIRC in one of the earliest episodes there is some<BR>
> mention of her background.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall that.<BR>
<BR>
> I also seem to recall<BR>
> something from the episode where they find the planet with<BR>
> children only.<BR>
<BR>
Are you talking about "Miri?" or "And the Children Shall Lead"? "Miri"<BR>
is a good episode. the *other* one is almost universally agreed to be<BR>
one of the worst, if not *the* worst episodes they ever made!<BR>
<BR>
> Besides you still haven't told me who says the books aren't<BR>
> "official."<BR>
<BR>
See above.<BR>
<BR>
Paramount *authorizes* the books, but they do not consider them to be<BR>
part of the official background. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:41:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hmm, I wonder if plasma screens and LCD screens are detectable by<BR>
> Detector Vans?  (Detector Vans hunt out  unlicenced  TVs.)  As  I<BR>
> understand it they key off  the  radio  signals  emitted  by  the<BR>
> picture tube.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the dreaded Detector Vans aren't able to detect *receivers*<BR>
at all. They detect the radiated signal (ie *transmissions*) from the<BR>
IF stages in superhet receivers. There are other types that could be<BR>
used that they'd never detect. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:02:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Huhn? As a tanker in the '80's I lived in that danm grease paint. Was this<BR>
> something that changed in those 20 years? I hated that fu*^%$#g paint far<BR>
> worse than C-Rats or MRE's ... In the reserves the worst treatment was<BR>
> reserved for officers that actually made us wear that sh*t.<BR>
><BR>
> You could always tell the officers that came  up the ranks - they hated the<BR>
> sh*t as much as we did...<BR>
<BR>
Well, there's a simple way of dealing with *that*... "forget" and<BR>
"accidentally" salute the jerk in the field. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:05:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:41 PM 2/15/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>They you wear that stuff in tanks? That shows a really poor confidence <BR>
>>in one's armour :)<BR>
><BR>
> What's the difference between a M-60A3 and a pop-up target?<BR>
><BR>
> The pop-up works after getting hit once. :P<BR>
><BR>
>>As a grunt I hated that stuff, too. Makes anybody come out in zits <BR>
>>inside 6 hours, and takes longer to get off than the actual field <BR>
>>exercise lasted, quite often. Ick.<BR>
><BR>
> Dude, rub your face with petroleum jelly before you do your paint. The<BR>
> stuff goes on better, and is much easier to wash off.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone ever develops a safe "pill" that acts like Niven's "tannin"<BR>
pills, grunts will *love* him. Take a pill and inside a few hours, your<BR>
*skin* is camo patterned... And stays that way for days or until you<BR>
take an antidote pill.<BR>
<BR>
Better living thru chemistry. :-)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, do soldiers still use the "cold cream" in the boots trick to<BR>
prevent foot rot?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:38:22 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:04:06 -0500 (EST), Anthony Jackson<BR>
<ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>                               I suspect that states cannot legally refuse<BR>
>to recognize a driver's license from another state, however.<BR>
<BR>
They can and do, but the only examples I've actually seen were<BR>
when one state was heavily urbanized and the other wasn't - and<BR>
the unurbanized state refused to recognize the urbanized state's<BR>
licenses only as tit-for-tat.<BR>
<BR>
In most cases, an out-of-state license is good for<BR>
transit-and-sojourn, but if you change your residential<BR>
commitment, you generally have 90 days or till the expiration of<BR>
the out-of-state license, whichever comes first, to get a new<BR>
license from your new home state.  Where licenses are recognized,<BR>
I think all that's necessary is to file the appropriate<BR>
paperwork; where there's some question about interstate<BR>
recognition, a road test may be required as well.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:12:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re ST [ot]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, some source material (the deck plans) points out that there are<BR>
> parrallel mini-turbolifts for the food system. And there are huge banks of<BR>
> "Fabrication Machinery", and huge tanks of raw materials. And a reference<BR>
> to textured proteins in a different episode (The one where the young<BR>
> officer "sings" "Kathleen"... IIRC). So the data card sends down the food<BR>
> plan for the individual, whose protien, vitamin, mineral and other<BR>
> nutritional needs are included, as are their preferences. Then they get<BR>
> shipped up a meal, fabricated in the food preparation section in the aft<BR>
> hull. When the ship has fresh provisions, they get the appropriate "real<BR>
> foods", othrwise they get those textured and colored "cubes" of gelatinous<BR>
> rations reconsituted from various bulk stores.<BR>
><BR>
> Now, an Ob Trav: I think this would be a failry typical military<BR>
> approach... the textured and flavored cubes of "ration-glop", processed in<BR>
> batches. I don't do it IMTU, since it really is fairly unlikely to be done,<BR>
> even tho it is very efficient, except in a society already used to such<BR>
> rations.<BR>
<BR>
Actually when you consider just how much food is a "wrapper" around a<BR>
bunch of "small chuncks" of food mixed with sauce, this might not be as<BR>
odd as it sounds. <BR>
<BR>
So you get what amounts to a burrito, enchilida, tamale, pocket<BR>
sandwhich, whatever... only the "wrapper" of "bread" is one solid<BR>
piece. Neater, less mess, and something we could almost do now. <BR>
<BR>
As longer the *inside* of the "globs" has a pleasing variety of flavors<BR>
and textures I think it'd go over just fine. <BR>
<BR>
Other food of the same types:<BR>
<BR>
* meat pies<BR>
* most "chinese" food that's "chopped up ingredients in sauce, over rice<BR>
  or mixed with rice"<BR>
* stews and soups<BR>
* much "Italian" food<BR>
* sandwiches<BR>
* "hot pockets"<BR>
<BR>
etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that investing in "spices" and programming the hardware to<BR>
vary textures will cover a *lot* of sins. Consider the difference<BR>
between scrambled eggs and an omellette. The omellette has more<BR>
textures, and more flavors. The scrambled eggs have a uniform flavor<BR>
and texture.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:43:45 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:04:06 -0500 (EST), Bruce Johnson<BR>
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>(Though recent SC decisions regarding states rights might put a  kink<BR>
>into that plan...they have ruled that the Constitution, and federal laws<BR>
>in particular do not necessarily apply to state governments. I don't<BR>
>remember the exact date, but the ruling involved workers compensation<BR>
>for state employees)<BR>
<BR>
No, the recent rulings were more along the lines that the<BR>
Constitution and Federal laws _do_ apply to the states - but<BR>
individuals can't sue the states in Federal courts to get them<BR>
enforced. This is supposed to be an application of the doctrine<BR>
of 'sovereign immunity'.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:00:04 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1920<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:31:08 -0500<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Troubles in Viet Nam were politically caused. Our full tech capabilities<BR>
>were not allowed to be utilized because of the political situation. (Do not<BR>
>take this as an affirmation of U.S. Policy in Southeast Asia.)<BR>
<BR>
To the best of my  knowledge the only high tech we refrained from using<BR>
in Vietnam was nukes. The political consideration to not use nukes<BR>
was based on the high likelyhood of getting into a (likely nuclear) war<BR>
with the USSR and China. (a war in which a large number of our allies<BR>
would perhaps have been inclined to sit out.)<BR>
<BR>
>Of course if you just nuke them from space or fire your meson guns from an<BR>
>orbiting spacecraft then any TL below 7 is completely helpless against you.<BR>
>Only Political motives would require that you land troops in the first<BR>
>place. After all the K'Kree would just de-populate the planet and then send<BR>
>their troops in. (Do not take this as an affirmation of the 2000 Worlds<BR>
>policy of genocide.)<BR>
<BR>
If your goal is anything short of genocide it's probably far too strong a<BR>
military posture to take. Think of the reputation the K'Kree have. Any meat<BR>
eater knows you might as well fight to the death because if the herd people<BR>
win your ass (as well as the rest of your anaotomy) is fertilizer to<BR>
sprinkle<BR>
over the grass. A reputation for genocide results in greater resistance from<BR>
foes and therefor increases the costs of conquest tremendously.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:53:10 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
<BR>
Just a couple of points...I went threw the 'learn to drive & get licensed' <BR>
process with two of my sons within the last four years.  My father also <BR>
taught a safe driving course (sponsored by the AARP) for several years, so <BR>
I've gotten an earful from both ends. :-)<BR>
<BR>
The requirements for a drivers license rather minimal.  The written test <BR>
typically is geared down and the actual driving test only covers the most <BR>
basic safety aspects.  It does not produce a 'safe' driver.  A license <BR>
recipient is marginally qualified to being the on-the-road experience they <BR>
need without assuring death and/or destruction of property every time they <BR>
leave the driveway.<BR>
<BR>
In some of the really large, rectangular shaped states, where the local <BR>
convince store is a 100 klicks away, drivers licenses are handed out to <BR>
kids as young as 14.  This so the parents don't go completely bonkers <BR>
having to drive the kid frigging everywhere as they get older.  So this kid <BR>
got his/her license in a town with one traffic light, 2 stop signs and no <BR>
one-way streets.  He spends most of his time cruising along on roads that <BR>
go straight, with no intersections, for dozens of miles.  This kid is also <BR>
licensed to drive in New York City, Boston, or any other major metro area, <BR>
even though it would be extremely dangerous for him to do so.<BR>
<BR>
Licensing the operators of motor vehicles is becoming less about insuring <BR>
safe motor vehicle operation and more about being a state issued <BR>
identification card.  It's really tough to get along without ID, and a <BR>
state drivers license is the most commonly accepted.  If you refuse to <BR>
learn to drive (like one of my Philosophy profs, who knew that cars hated <BR>
him by the way they looked at him), the state organization that issues <BR>
drivers licenses will issue an Identification Card that looks just like the <BR>
state issued drivers license except for the verbiage about being qualified <BR>
to operate motor vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
Grist for a GM's mill.<BR>
<BR>
Port official: "Welcome to our lovely planet.  Here are your customs forms <BR>
and a form for your vehicle occupant license."<BR>
<BR>
Traveller: "I don't need a license, I won't be driving myself.  I'm renting <BR>
an aircar and driver"<BR>
<BR>
PO: "Yes, but in order to enter the aircar, you need a license."<BR>
<BR>
Traveller, looking at the form with the attached equipment for blood & hair <BR>
samples, along with a spot for 3D photographs (head & full body), finger <BR>
prints and retinal scans:  "That's ok, I'll walk."<BR>
<BR>
PO, giving nod #23, which calls over two large lads wearing RVO uniforms: <BR>
"You really need the license to get about..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a<BR>
free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall<BR>
not be infringed.  -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:03:11 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:42:09 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: TL of troops<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>> When I was in the US Army I used to know the capabilities and<BR>
>> limitations of<BR>
>>>> all of the Russian equipment. What the effective ranges of all of their<BR>
>>>> weapons were, how much they could elevate or depress their guns, the<BR>
>>>> effective ranges of our weapons against their systems, and so on. Can<BR>
you<BR>
>>>> imagine Imperial troops knowing this type of imformation about all of<BR>
>> their<BR>
>>>> potential adversaries?<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>*Way* too many "potential adversaries".<BR>
>><BR>
>> This might kill the "travel to the battle in low berths" concept<BR>
completely.<BR>
>><BR>
>> You'd need those couple of months in transit to train for your expected<BR>
>> adversary.<BR>
><BR>
>And one good thing about ships being the fastest means of<BR>
>communication. You won't get re-directed at the last minute to<BR>
>someplace else.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jumping in here. I'd expect forces to train and familliarize themselves for<BR>
the opponents nearest to them. For example in the spinward marches<BR>
the forces would famiarize with and train to fight against the Zhodani<BR>
with a side order of Vargr and the other "client states" in the area.<BR>
If the war lasts long enough for the reinforcements from the interior<BR>
to come into play they would be interleaved with the veterans for<BR>
training purposes. This helps avoid the problem of training your<BR>
reinforcement forces to a fever pitch in tactical doctrines that make<BR>
no sense in the light of enemy activity (a common problem at the<BR>
start of wars.) or training them for missions that no longer apply.<BR>
"yes sir I understand that your crack troops have been training<BR>
for two months to fight on the jungles of Framistan but they've<BR>
already capitulated. Now your going to invade the ice planet<BR>
Fiddlesworth. Hope you took your long johns along."<BR>
<BR>
In this analysis I'm using the MT ruleset.<BR>
The troops in low berths could result in a substantial increase in<BR>
available firepower over troops in staterooms (4 troops to 1.)<BR>
This depends on the level of suplies/equipment the troopships<BR>
need to carry in adition to the troopers themselves. At the higher<BR>
tech levels this will be close to negligible for infantry units equiped<BR>
with BD (perhaps 3:1 LB:SR) Troops equipped with gcarriers<BR>
as well will require 6/7ths ton aditional per soldier droping the ratio<BR>
to say 1.5:1. Trepida armed forces will be very close to 1:1<BR>
low berth:stateroom. These ratios will be altered by having<BR>
a preplaced srores and equipment setup. (Allowing close to the<BR>
theoritical 4:1 ratio while running the risk of having your forward<BR>
equipment depots overrun.)<BR>
<BR>
I think having the extra throw weight of low berth troops<BR>
would outway the advantage of training in possibly<BR>
outmoded tactics or for potentially unnecesary opperations.<BR>
(But you do have the problem of the incredibly deadly<BR>
LB survival rolls. And I have no clue at what level of<BR>
[pre battle] casualties the Impie armed forces will balk)<BR>
<BR>
YMMV and all that<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:53:55 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Travel Limitations int he US and the 3I<BR>
<BR>
><< >Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
> >to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
><BR>
> Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is no such<BR>
> right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
> >><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>It was read in, kind of like abortion only with some actual textual<BR>
>foundation.<BR>
><BR>
>The idea is that interstate commerce requires free and unrestricted travel.<BR>
<BR>
And the courts have held, consistantly, that this does not prevent<BR>
requirement of liscence to operate a vehicle. It merely means that the<BR>
Federal Government may not prevent, limit, nor inhibit interstate travel.<BR>
It means absolutely nothing when looking at states rights to control means<BR>
of movement; it applies in that case soley in that they can not prevent you<BR>
from going, unless there is due process to restrain you.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, the citizens and nobles have right of freedom of travel BETWEEN<BR>
WORLDS. On any given world, the world may restrict on-world travel as they<BR>
see fit for citizens (possibly preventing them from getting to the port),<BR>
but once they get off world, they can travel as they see fit, can afford,<BR>
and may find available. Nobles, however, may not be prevented from access<BR>
to the starport unless held for crimes, but likewise, they can be prevented<BR>
from going anywhere else on world. In short, the need for freedom of travel<BR>
is essential to market economics functioning well - but we know that in the<BR>
3I, this doesn't exist per se; individual worlds may enforce embargoes on<BR>
other worlds. So, basically, the ability of individuals to travel in the<BR>
canon otu is limitable by any world.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:59:27 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
<BR>
>I bet you didn't know the Vilani are already among us...<BR>
>http://folklora.lv/kopas/vilonisi/en.shtml<BR>
<BR>
That's scary!  Are they a covert op from the Ziru Sirka,<BR>
stationed here to watch what appears to be a hitherto<BR>
undiscovered minor human race, or are they refuseniks who have<BR>
rejected the Ziru Sirka and are living the Vilani way of life<BR>
here on Terra?  Have they realized that this is the ancestral<BR>
homeworld?  What have they done with their unemployed shugilis? <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I smell a Milieu -2500 adventure in the making!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:55:49 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Responses in the body message.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steve<BR>
> Daniels<BR>
> Sent: 15 February 2000 00:44<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> First of all, could you please cite the articles of the Berne<BR>
> Convention you are referring to, next time?  I hate thumbing<BR>
> through that.<BR>
><BR>
Sorry - I hate thumbing through the thing too, so I tend to<BR>
paraphrase.<BR>
><BR>
> Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
>><BR>
> > by the publishers. Failing explicit agreements, copyright is<BR>
> > determined by the regulations in force in the legislative state<BR>
> > (usually a nation) where the copyright material is PRODUCED (ie.<BR>
> > written). [Berne Agreement].<BR>
><BR>
> The treaty is a default rule.  People are free to contract around it<BR>
> (except for the right of attribution).  The treaty has already been<BR>
> integrated into US law.<BR>
><BR>
Really? I was not aware of that. Good news!<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
> ><BR>
> > These two issues do indeed leave SJG open to legal action if their<BR>
> > handling of the issue is as claimed, since no explicit<BR>
> agreement is<BR>
> > required (they assume IMPLICIT agreement of the contract by<BR>
> > contributors).<BR>
><BR>
> You're not making sense to me here.  In what way is the<BR>
> subscriber agreement not explicit?  You can't post without<BR>
> agreeing to it.  That is an exlpicit contract, satisifes the<BR>
> requirements copyright law.  Sure, its an adhesion contract without<BR>
> negotiation of terms, but there is nothing improper about that.<BR>
> Don't want to agree, don't post.<BR>
><BR>
In Europe, if not the US, "explicit" refers to a clear agreement<BR>
between parties, not an assumed agreement based on a user action. For<BR>
instance, the software licenses inside packages have been repudiated<BR>
in the UK where they say things like "by opening this box you agree to<BR>
the conditions inside it".<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> > Secondly, designation of<BR>
> > copyright is determined by the nation of origin, not of<BR>
> publication,<BR>
> > and most nations do not require explicit copyright identification,<BR>
> > although they do ADVISE it if the document is to be<BR>
> circulated outside<BR>
> > the nation of origin.<BR>
><BR>
> Just like the US.  No copyright notice is required for copyright to<BR>
> exist.  I think we all agree on that.<BR>
><BR>
I got the impression the previous poster didn't.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> > 3. It is not demonstrably necassary for SJG to possess<BR>
> the personal<BR>
> > information (ie. the name) of the copyright holder unless they are<BR>
> > prepared to designate that copyright on that material.<BR>
> Nor have they<BR>
> > demonstrated that they will appropriately protect and<BR>
> maintain that<BR>
> > data.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't understand your concern here.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
See below.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> Say what?  That statement needs to be parsed down.<BR>
><BR>
> "SJG have not demonstrated willingness to abide by data protection<BR>
> regulations in force outside the US"<BR>
><BR>
> You want a US company to agree to international rules that don't<BR>
> apply to it?  Is that right?  And the data you want them to protect<BR>
> is the identity of a contributor?<BR>
><BR>
No, they have the option not to, of course.<BR>
><BR>
> "and therefore it is currently questionable whether it is permitted<BR>
> to provide personal copyright information on submitted material<BR>
> that does not belong to you personally, if submitted within the UK."<BR>
><BR>
> What is "personal copyright information"?  If its the author, then<BR>
> in many countries, yuo MUST provide it else you violate that<BR>
> author's right of attribution to the material he created.<BR>
><BR>
That is correct - the name is personal information and can only be<BR>
retained by a user for "legitimate purpose". See later.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> > In other words, if your mate<BR>
> > tells you something, there is a possibility that you<BR>
> should NOT TELL<BR>
> > SJG his/her name to claim copyright. After March 1st, it will be<BR>
> > **illegal** to do so (pending changes in the US data protection<BR>
> > regulations), from anywhere within the EU.<BR>
><BR>
> "Telling" doesn't qualify for copyright protection.  It must be<BR>
> fixed in a tangible medium.  Taking a stab in the dark here,<BR>
> do you mean to say that if your mate wrote something, and<BR>
> you posted it to SJG's board, but you want to preserve the<BR>
> copyright to it, then you shouldn't put her name on it?<BR>
><BR>
> Well, cutting to the chase, it doesn't matter.  It is my<BR>
> _unofficial_<BR>
> opinion that adding "copyright reserved" to any post on SJG's<BR>
> board would be sufficient to preserve your copyright in the<BR>
> posted material.  (Why?  Because IMHO it meets the terms of<BR>
> the subscriber agreement.  Although it is doesn't meat the<BR>
> technical requirements of notice, notice isn't required for<BR>
> copyright to attach.  The "explicit notice" required by the<BR>
> SJG subscriber agreement is not further specified.).<BR>
><BR>
Yes, that is the point - in Europe, copyright is inherent in the<BR>
content, not in the attribution.<BR>
><BR>
> > In a nutshell, SJG are attempting to foist national (US state)<BR>
> > agreements on international documents and publication.<BR>
><BR>
> Treaties to which the US is a party are incorporated into<BR>
> US law.  If you agree to the subscriber agreement, you agreed<BR>
> to accept US law.  Its a simple and standard arrangement.<BR>
><BR>
That is precisely the issue - Europe does not accept their right to do<BR>
that.<BR>
><BR>
> > To add insult to<BR>
> > injury, they are also attempting to enforce implicit<BR>
> acceptance of US<BR>
> > laws by international contributors, which is explicilty<BR>
> forbidden by<BR>
> > international agreements to which the US is already a signatory.<BR>
><BR>
> Show me.  Are you not free to make contracts in your country?<BR>
> Are they making default property rules to which you cannot<BR>
> contract around?<BR>
><BR>
Yes, they are. Specifically, they are making requirements for data<BR>
provision (you must tell them personal details in the attribution)<BR>
which are specifically forbidden by the European Convention on Data<BR>
Protection, which will be enacted into national laws by 1st October<BR>
2000 (1st March in the UK). It is a tricky legal area.<BR>
><BR>
> > I did say some time ago on this thread, that international<BR>
> > contributors really should just ignore the copyright issue<BR>
><BR>
> Amen.  Just say "copyright reserved" on your posts and<BR>
> don't worry about it.  There isn't a there there.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1927<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1928</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1928<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
Re: JTAS rights<BR>
Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
YNYPTMTW<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
re: JTAS copyrights<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:12:07 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
At 07:27 am 2/15/00, you wrote:<BR>
>At 11:16 AM 2/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
>>to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
><BR>
>Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is no<BR>
such<BR>
>right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
<BR>
	For those who wish to check, it's on my website. No, not the real<BR>
thing, an HTML imitation. Of course, who's to say I haven't edited<BR>
it? Or the folks at the Gutenberg project maybe tampered with it ...<BR>
perhaps we better go to Washington and check it ourselves. Oh no! The<BR>
evil oppressive Federal Government Conspiracy will prevent us from<BR>
Travelling there!<BR>
<BR>
	Besides, the original's already been doctored by the Greys anyway.<BR>
<BR>
- -- Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft<BR>
product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:15:18 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:12 am 2/15/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>>Exactly. By the mid-80s it was standard field gear because of the<BR>
lessons<BR>
>>learned in Vietnam. Also why we lost the nice starched fatigues for<BR>
the<BR>
>>baggy BDU. Soliders who are not easily seen tend to live longer.<BR>
><BR>
>Someone (here?) mentioned a motto at a military training school,<BR>
>perhaps written over the door of the people who taught camoflage<BR>
>techniques:<BR>
><BR>
>"If they can see you, they can kill you. Hide!"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	"Today's Lesson: How Not To Be Seen ..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft<BR>
product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:22:02 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
At 01:16 pm 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>GaryBartz@aol.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> It was read in, kind of like abortion only with some actual<BR>
textual <BR>
>> foundation.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The idea is that interstate commerce requires free and<BR>
unrestricted travel.<BR>
>> <BR>
>Given that the courts have not since overturned the ability of the<BR>
states to<BR>
>license vehicles, one assumes that the court's interpretation of<BR>
this right<BR>
>is not enormously broad.  In any case, the constitution doesn't<BR>
require<BR>
>completely free interstate commerce, it just doesn't allow taxing or<BR>
<BR>
>preferential treatment, and gives the federal government the ability<BR>
to<BR>
>regulate interstate commerce. <BR>
><BR>
>Note that the state cannot in fact regulate driving on the<BR>
interstates without<BR>
>the permission of the federal government.  As such, presumably the<BR>
federal<BR>
>government recognizes state driver licenses, as you cannot drive on<BR>
an<BR>
>interstate without a license.  I suspect that states cannot legally<BR>
refuse<BR>
>to recognize a driver's license from another state, however.<BR>
<BR>
	Article IV, Section 1: "Full faith and credit shall be given in each<BR>
state to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every<BR>
other state."<BR>
<BR>
	And saying that requiring driver's licenses infringes on your right<BR>
to travel is stretching it a bit. Even explicitly stated rights still<BR>
admit some restriction (bounce "incitement to riot," laws against<BR>
harassing phone calls, even prohibitions on shouting "Theater" in a<BR>
crowded fire against the first amendment, for example ...).<BR>
<BR>
- -- Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft<BR>
product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:36:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>> There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in there=<BR>
> ,<BR>
>> and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
>> Amendment right to peaceably assemble.<BR>
><BR>
> See the 9th Amendment.<BR>
<BR>
That only says that such a right *might* exist. Also, you yourself<BR>
stated in another post that the *owner* of something has the right to<BR>
control how it is used. Since a driver's license is *only* required to<BR>
operate a motor vehicle on roads owned by the government, then by your<BR>
own statement, they've *got* the right to require licenses.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:42:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Scout Harris wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> <BR>
>> On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:29:37   Daniel Phelps wrote:<BR>
>> >Was written:<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >>>Neither heat seekers nor radar<BR>
>> >>> guided missiles will lock on, and trying to use machineguns gets<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I read a short story about just that situation (can't remember the <BR>
> authour... sorry). A jet fighter had fallen back in time to WW1. He had the <BR>
> same problem (no lock, too slow), so his solution was to fly supersonic past <BR>
> the byplanes and let the roiling <BR>
> air currents tear the biplanes to pieces.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> The title was 'Hawk Among Sparrows', but I can't remember the author's<BR>
> name...<BR>
<BR>
Dean MacLaughlin.<BR>
<BR>
And it wasn't "roiling air currents". The shock cone from even a<BR>
*small* fighter travelling supersonic is capable of inflicting a *lot*<BR>
of damage from overpressure.<BR>
<BR>
They'd just completed the Air Force Academy buildings at Colorado<BR>
springs when a pilot hot-dogging in a T-??? trainer made a low pass at<BR>
about Mach 1.5. The shock wave impacting on the walls and roof of one<BR>
of the dorms exerted enough for to *bend* structural I-beams. They had<BR>
to tear them out and rebuild. It also broke windows, but they wasn't<BR>
*nearly* as expensive.<BR>
<BR>
A "close pass" (say 2000 feet or less) by a supersonic aircraft *will*<BR>
rip apart something as flimsy as a biplane.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:47:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>I read a short story about just that situation (can't remember the<BR>
> authour... sorry). A jet fighter had fallen back in time to WW1. He had the<BR>
> same problem (no lock, too slow), so his solution was to fly supersonic past<BR>
> the byplanes and let the roiling air currents tear the biplanes to pieces.<BR>
><BR>
>     His real problem would be getting the phenomenal back up a modern jet<BR>
> fighter requires for more than six hours operation. That and a landing<BR>
> field. and (etc)<BR>
<BR>
He apparently had *some* thrust vectoring, as well as landing gear<BR>
capable of handling what passed for landing strips back then.<BR>
<BR>
After he landed, it took him *months* to get enough kerosene (which is<BR>
essentially what some grades of jet fuel are) and to filter it well<BR>
enough to feel comfortable using it.<BR>
<BR>
He also only made *two* flights after winding up back then. On the<BR>
second one, when he made a second supersonic pass through a formation<BR>
of German aircraft, his engine sucked in a piece of biplane and quit.<BR>
He ejected ok.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:57:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> is liable---<BR>
>>    (a) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years if <BR>
>> the value of<BR>
>>          the thing so received exceeds the sum of [$40]:<BR>
>>    (b) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year if <BR>
>> the value of<BR>
>>          the thing so received exceeds the sum of [$10] and does not<BR>
>>          exceed the sum of [$40]:<BR>
>>    (c) To imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months if <BR>
>> the value of<BR>
>>          the thing so received does not exceed the sum of [$10].<BR>
><BR>
> I bet those figures seemed a lot more reasonable in 1962 <g>. I often<BR>
> wonder why legislators set absolute monetary values down in the statute<BR>
> books... Haven't they heard of inflation? They could at least index link<BR>
> it... <g><BR>
<BR>
Heck, the US Consitution does it:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
                                  Amendment VII<BR>
                                  =============<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
          In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall<BR>
          exceed twenty dollars, the right  of  trial by jury shall be<BR>
          preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall  be  otherwise<BR>
          re-examined   in  any  Court  of  the  United  States,  than<BR>
          according to the rules of the common law.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
                                  ============<BR>
<BR>
At the time, $20 was *good* wages for a *month*. It was also the value<BR>
of an ounce of gold, as I recall. <BR>
<BR>
So, these days if you go by *wage* equivalence, it'd have to be<BR>
somewhere between $2000 and $4000. If you go by the value of gold, it'd<BR>
only be around $350. <BR>
<BR>
Either way, indexing it *somehow* would sure free up a *lot* of court time.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:51:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS rights<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>An example: His roommate mentions an idea. A good one. He *can't* post<BR>
>>that idea under the current SJG rules without violating his country's<BR>
>>law. Because to preserve his roommate's right, the SJG agreement<BR>
>>requires a copyright notice. Which would have to contain his roommate's<BR>
>>name (because he can't legally post it with a copyright notice with<BR>
>>*his* name, because it isn't *his* idea). But he can't post that notice<BR>
>>without permission (and maybe not even then, I'm not sure what the<BR>
>>exact restrictions on disclosing info about a third party are).<BR>
><BR>
> I thought copyright protected a certain representation of an idea, rather<BR>
> than the idea itself - I thought ideas themselves weren't copyrightable. <BR>
<BR>
Unless he went to a lot of trouble reworking the "representation" of<BR>
the idea, it'd still be his room-mates copyright, not his. There's also<BR>
the concept of "derivative work". That is, a work *based on* another<BR>
work. Since no matter *what* he did with it, his post would be based on<BR>
his roommate's comments (ie, if his roommate hadn't said what she'd said,<BR>
then he wouldn't have made the post) thus the copyright is *still* his<BR>
roommate's. <BR>
<BR>
"Derivative work" is *why* you need a license from Marc Miller to write<BR>
Traveller stuff, from Paramount to write Star Trek stuff, and from the<BR>
Burrough's estate to write Tarzan stuff. <BR>
<BR>
In each case, if it wasn't for *their* copyrighted material, you<BR>
wouldn't be writing your material.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:34:06 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
> <BR>
> >I bet you didn't know the Vilani are already among us...<BR>
> >http://folklora.lv/kopas/vilonisi/en.shtml<BR>
> <BR>
> That's scary!  Are they a covert op from the Ziru Sirka,<BR>
> stationed here to watch what appears to be a hitherto<BR>
> undiscovered minor human race, or are they refuseniks who have<BR>
> rejected the Ziru Sirka and are living the Vilani way of life<BR>
> here on Terra?  Have they realized that this is the ancestral<BR>
> homeworld?  What have they done with their unemployed shugilis?<BR>
<BR>
BAM!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:41:53 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Feb 00, at 1:42, Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
> > >Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month<BR>
> > pre-mature...<BR>
> <BR>
> Why?  My momma says that first born children are usually<BR>
> premature.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
IIRC (from some research I did for some rpg rules on pregnancies - <BR>
unfinished), first pregnancies actually tend to last a bit longer, on <BR>
average, etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:41:53 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
On 14 Feb 00, at 22:55, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > As a grunt I hated that stuff, too. Makes anybody come out in zits<BR>
> > inside 6 hours, and takes longer to get off than the actual field<BR>
> > exercise lasted, quite often. Ick.<BR>
> <BR>
> Cold Cream.... Works wonders....<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't know, but when dressed for bear it helped keep insects<BR>
> off.<BR>
<BR>
I found Baby Oil was good, Ponds make-up remover better (but you had to <BR>
sure that you were not going back into the field, because the baddies'd <BR>
smell you from a mile off).<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:42:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>> There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in there,<BR>
>> and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
>> Amendment right to peaceably assemble.<BR>
><BR>
>See the 9th Amendment.<BR>
>- --<BR>
>Jason<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be<BR>
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."<BR>
<BR>
Pretty big stretch. That's like saying you have a constitutional right to<BR>
wear plaid or date an ugly girl under the 9th Amendment. As a strict<BR>
constructionist I'd have to take exception to that. I'm aware that other<BR>
disagree with me and that proponents of judicial legislation often site the<BR>
9th Amendment as support for their discovery of some new right that neither<BR>
the Congress nor the people via constitutional convention have passed.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:49:36 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: YNYPTMTW<BR>
<BR>
I hate to bring up a dead thread but this just happened to me.<BR>
<BR>
You know you play too much Traveller when:<BR>
<BR>
You're in sci.military.moderated, see "Re: Small Question on Cannon"<BR>
in the subject line and think it's a misspelling.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get <BR>
 used to the idea."                  - Robert A. Heinlein<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:55:57 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Believe it or not, the EU regulations actually require things that get<BR>
> pretty weird.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Jumping Jehosophat!  Has the world gone mad?<BR>
Good thing there is too much money involved for the threaten<BR>
consequences to ever come about.<BR>
<BR>
[snip european insanity]<BR>
<BR>
> The example he gave was that he could not *legally* (under his nation's<BR>
> laws) post a message containing a copyright notice for some third<BR>
> person unless they had personally posted the material.<BR>
><BR>
> An example: His roommate mentions an idea. A good one. He *can't* post<BR>
> that idea under the current SJG rules without violating his country's<BR>
> law.<BR>
<BR>
"Ideas" get no protection.  Unless they're a patent.  Otherwise, bupkis.<BR>
Don't let these creep into examples dealing with copyright.  Say it is a<BR>
copyright in this example.  If he posts his roommates copyrighted<BR>
material, he has violated the SJG agreement too.<BR>
<BR>
From Section G:<BR>
"Likewise, you must respect the ownership rights of others in their own<BR>
messages and files. You may not post or transfer any messages or files<BR>
unless you own them, or you have full authority to transmit them to this<BR>
system."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Because to preserve his roommate's right, the SJG agreement<BR>
> requires a copyright notice. Which would have to contain his roommate's<BR>
> name (because he can't legally post it with a copyright notice with<BR>
> *his* name, because it isn't *his* idea). But he can't post that notice<BR>
> without permission (and maybe not even then, I'm not sure what the<BR>
> exact restrictions on disclosing info about a third party are).<BR>
<BR>
The way section G operates, if you post it, you claim ownership, i.e.,<BR>
you cannot post anyone else's material.  With permission or without.<BR>
So in this case, if he posts his roommate's copyrighted-protected<BR>
material, he has violated the SJG subscriber agreement and probably<BR>
his roommate's copyright, and possibly the laws of his country.<BR>
<BR>
From what you say, if he tried to preserve his roommate's copyright<BR>
by providing notice of copyright ownership by another person,<BR>
he would also be violating his countries laws.  I'll take your word<BR>
for it.  Thankfully, it is irrelevant (I think).<BR>
<BR>
Under the subscriber agreement, you have no permission to post<BR>
anything that isn't yours.  So if you don't own it, don't post it.<BR>
If you want to retain ownership of something you post, then you<BR>
need only explicitly claim copyright in it.<BR>
<BR>
Does that clear it up? <fingers crossed><BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:59:19 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
GaryBartz@aol.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> It was read in, kind of like abortion only with some actual textual<BR>
>> foundation.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The idea is that interstate commerce requires free and unrestricted<BR>
travel.<BR>
>><BR>
>Given that the courts have not since overturned the ability of the states<BR>
to<BR>
>license vehicles, one assumes that the court's interpretation of this right<BR>
>is not enormously broad.  In any case, the constitution doesn't require<BR>
>completely free interstate commerce, it just doesn't allow taxing or<BR>
>preferential treatment, and gives the federal government the ability to<BR>
>regulate interstate commerce.<BR>
><BR>
>Note that the state cannot in fact regulate driving on the interstates<BR>
without<BR>
>the permission of the federal government.  As such, presumably the federal<BR>
>government recognizes state driver licenses, as you cannot drive on an<BR>
>interstate without a license.  I suspect that states cannot legally refuse<BR>
>to recognize a driver's license from another state, however.<BR>
<BR>
Under Article IV states must accept the license issued by another state.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of decades ago a sci-fi writer wrote a short story about the<BR>
Supreme Court deciding that only the Federal government could regulate<BR>
traffic on the Interstates. Since (in the story) Congress didn't want to<BR>
pony up the funds to support a federal highway patrol there was no law<BR>
enforcement on the Interstates. Drivers beefed up their armored vehicles<BR>
with high tech weaponry ala Car Wars. The hero of the story had to deliver a<BR>
package out of state for his son (who died trying to make the delivery.) The<BR>
protagonist was an "Ace" with a number of kills from when he was a young<BR>
blade. The title of the story? "Drive Offensively."<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:38:41 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Army Stuff (was re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918)<BR>
<BR>
At 14:44 -0500 15/2/00, Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:<BR>
>Someone (here?) mentioned a motto at a military training school,<BR>
>perhaps written over the door of the people who taught camoflage<BR>
>techniques:<BR>
><BR>
>"If they can see you, they can kill you. Hide!"<BR>
<BR>
"The Importance of Not Being Seen" by Monty Python.<BR>
<BR>
I've vague recollections of our resident sniper mentioning this being <BR>
something he used.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:44:47 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
At 14:44 -0500 15/2/00, Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net> wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> > There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in there,<BR>
> > and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
> > Amendment right to peaceably assemble.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<Snipped copyright material><BR>
<BR>
> 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
I don't believe you can claim copyright of the material Doug posted, <BR>
only the material you post. Your statement is wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:54:32 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
At 17:04 -0500 15/2/00, Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>  wrote:<BR>
> > The licence demonstrates none of these things.<BR>
><BR>
>I don't know about US driving licences, but driving licences in Sweden<BR>
>(and Germany, Norway, England, probably more countries) are only given<BR>
>to people who demonstrate these abilities. If US driving licences work<BR>
>in a radically different way, I am surprised. The whole purpose of a<BR>
>driving licence is to prove that you are not a danger to yourself or<BR>
>others while driving.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR from friends who visited the USA that the US 'Driving Test' at <BR>
best consists of driving around a mock road. (Please correct me if <BR>
wrong).<BR>
<BR>
The UK test has a written exam (>90% correct to pass, again IIRC) <BR>
plus at least 30 minutes on the real road with an examiner, who has a <BR>
number of maneuvers which must be demonstrated *whatever* the <BR>
conditions that the test is conducted under. Poor weather is not <BR>
considered an excuse for poor control. You can fail for a big mistake <BR>
or for a number of smaller ones. Once you pass your provisional <BR>
license to drive on public roads is converted to a full license.<BR>
<BR>
And we drive on the left, and have roundabouts.. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:42:54 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: JTAS copyrights<BR>
<BR>
At 14:44 -0500 15/2/00, "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
>How does the detector van distinguish the unlicensed TV's from the<BR>
>multitudes of licensed TV's? I can see this working in suburban or<BR>
>rural areas, where you have about one family per household, but<BR>
>in apartment complexes and such it sounds pretty useless.<BR>
<BR>
Cross-referencing against the database.<BR>
<BR>
>It's such a big problem that they spend taxpayer money on these<BR>
>vans? I agree, the UK makes no sense at all. :-)<BR>
<BR>
They charge >1000 GBP per hit in fines IIRC. Must be worthwhile as <BR>
it makes large numbers of people pay up.<BR>
<BR>
Current advertising is running on billboards - "There are x <BR>
unlicensed TVs in Joe Bloggs Street'<BR>
<BR>
Big Brother *is* watching us.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:18:34 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright question (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This is fun isn't it  ?<BR>
> <grin><BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah.  You should see a party of lawyers  after 6-7 pints<BR>
of Guinness<BR>
<BR>
> If they should double-check, then they can't really rely on the agreement,<BR>
> can they ?<BR>
<BR>
It isn't a contradiction.  In our litigious society, law suits are to be<BR>
Avoided not Resolved.  You should double-check to _avoid_ the<BR>
case totally.  But that isn't necessary to _win_ the case.<BR>
<BR>
> As avoiding the potential of a law suit was the whole point of the agreement<BR>
> in the first place, and as you have basically just agreed that they can't<BR>
> rely on that agreement to protect them in that way, perhaps you can see now<BR>
> why I stated that the agremeent doesn't really protect them ?<BR>
<BR>
The agreement means they will win.  Avoiding is a different issue.<BR>
I try to stay in the abstract win/lose arena.  Avoiding cases is a<BR>
business decision.<BR>
<BR>
> And yes, I know you don't need a written contract to prove a contract, which<BR>
> may be verbal, but you do need evidence.<BR>
<BR>
In the US, and under the Berne Convention I believe, copyright<BR>
transfers must be in writing.  Thankfully, at least in the US, electronic<BR>
works.<BR>
<BR>
[snip identification problems]<BR>
<BR>
Sure. But it doesn't have to be perfect.  Sure you want it to be perfect<BR>
to _avoid_ a case, but perfect is expensive.  Close, i.e., 'reasonable'<BR>
identification is sufficient to rely on.<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps, but Black's (whatever that is) is not the Law. <grin><BR>
> So I went and checked our laws (you can access the majority of New Zealand<BR>
> law on line,you just can't use the search engine without paying )<BR>
<BR>
FYI:  Black's Law dictionary publishes definitions taken directly<BR>
from legal cases, so they are binding within the relevant jurisdiction.<BR>
And over time most of the jurisdictions definitions get closer and<BR>
closer together.<BR>
<BR>
> So, you're right, and I'm wrong. Sorry.<BR>
<BR>
No problem.<BR>
<BR>
> Thing was, I've seen far too many cases of people being charged who<BR>
> genuinely did have no idea that items were stolen, that I had presumed the<BR>
> police knew what they were talking about.<BR>
><BR>
> That'll teach me.<BR>
<BR>
LOL.  This is why lawyers get anally retentive.  Arrests are not<BR>
convictions; knowledge need not be actual, etc.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1928<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1929</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1929<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: JTAS copyrights<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: JTAS rights<BR>
Re: JTAS Copyright (But is getting WAY OT)<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: Aging Rolls<BR>
Economics IMTU (Was:  Re: robot economics)<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright<BR>
Re: Army Stuff<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Jtas copyrightAt <BR>
isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
My copyright claim (Was:  Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright))<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:11:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyrights<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Trevas wrote:<BR>
>>Hmm, I wonder if plasma screens and LCD screens are detectable by <BR>
>>Detector Vans?  (Detector Vans hunt out  unlicenced  TVs.)  As  I <BR>
>>understand it they key off  the  radio  signals  emitted  by  the <BR>
>>picture tube. <BR>
><BR>
> How does the detector van distinguish the unlicensed TV's from the<BR>
> multitudes of licensed TV's? I can see this working in suburban or<BR>
> rural areas, where you have about one family per household, but<BR>
> in apartment complexes and such it sounds pretty useless.<BR>
<BR>
Well, as I understand it, they usually have other reasons to be<BR>
suspicious. They also have the tax records handy. And the IF signals<BR>
they go after are short enough wavelengths that a directional antenna<BR>
can be fairly small. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:21:29 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Not just a TV - you need a license to own *any* radio receiver - like the one<BR>
> in your car!<BR>
<BR>
What if you have a radiophonic mouth (dental work that will recieve<BR>
radio and let you hear it)?<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:31:29 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Feb 00, at 7:45, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:02 PM 2/14/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> >Huhn? As a tanker in the '80's I lived in that danm grease paint. Was<BR>
> >this something that changed in those 20 years? I hated that fu*^%$#g<BR>
> >paint far worse than C-Rats or MRE's ... In the reserves the worst<BR>
> >treatment was reserved for officers that actually made us wear that sh*t.<BR>
> <BR>
> Exactly. By the mid-80s it was standard field gear because of the lessons<BR>
> learned in Vietnam. Also why we lost the nice starched fatigues for the<BR>
> baggy BDU. Soliders who are not easily seen tend to live longer.<BR>
<BR>
And this is how you can tell that the NZ Army hasn't been to war for <BR>
too long - The Powers That Be are in favour of nice ironed creases in <BR>
the standard day wear, which just happens to be the DPM (disruptive <BR>
pattern material) field uniform. Properly put in the creases will <BR>
probably come out about the time the wearer gets toasted. They've also <BR>
gone for dumb Aussie style shirts and brown boots, but that's a whole <BR>
other rant.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:31:29 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Feb 00, at 7:48, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:41 PM 2/15/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >They you wear that stuff in tanks? That shows a really poor confidence in<BR>
> >one's armour :)<BR>
> <BR>
> What's the difference between a M-60A3 and a pop-up target?<BR>
> <BR>
> The pop-up works after getting hit once. :P<BR>
> <BR>
> >As a grunt I hated that stuff, too. Makes anybody come out in zits <BR>
> >inside 6 hours, and takes longer to get off than the actual field <BR>
> >exercise lasted, quite often. Ick.<BR>
> <BR>
> Dude, rub your face with petroleum jelly before you do your paint. The<BR>
> stuff goes on better, and is much easier to wash off. -- <BR>
<BR>
Used to, when I was still in. However I always thought it would've been <BR>
nice if they actually told us poor sods in basic, rather than letting <BR>
us find out ourselves. Character building I suppose.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:48:33 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS rights<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>I thought copyright protected a certain representation of an idea, rather<BR>
>>than the idea itself - I thought ideas themselves weren't copyrightable. <BR>
> <BR>
>Unless he went to a lot of trouble reworking the "representation" of<BR>
>the idea, it'd still be his room-mates copyright, not his. <BR>
<BR>
This doesn't affect the main part of your argument, but I was under the<BR>
impression that you don't acquire copyright to anything until you fix it<BR>
in a permanent medium. Ie. record it somehow. And then, as the previous<BR>
poster said, only to the particular expression of that idea.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        'There was a man,'  remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced<BR>
    to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,<BR>
    that  he  thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a<BR>
    common  and  the  judge  answered,  "You  are not to be hanged for<BR>
    stealing  a  horse  from  a common,  but that others may not steal<BR>
    horses from commons." '<BR>
        'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not<BR>
    daily stolen from commons? You do not!'<BR>
<BR>
                        --- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:48:21 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright (But is getting WAY OT)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 3:22:00 AM Central Standard Time, Jason T. <BR>
Barnabas writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:19:04 -0800<BR>
 From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
 Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
 <BR>
 From: <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 > In a message dated 2/14/00 6:09:08 PM Central Standard Time, Jason T.<BR>
 > Barnabas writes:<BR>
 ><BR>
 > << Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked at<BR>
 with<BR>
 >  stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world? >><BR>
 ><BR>
 > Our youthful good looks and naively charming ways? <g><BR>
 <BR>
 Yoh Simon,  I didn't write that.  Some bloke in the UK (or at<BR>
 least with a .uk addy) did.<BR>
 - --<BR>
 Jason >><BR>
<BR>
Sorry, my bad. After a while it gets hard counting the quotation divots.<BR>
<BR>
Also, in an aside concerning the 'pointing out misspelling' section, even he <BR>
misspelled "acquire" as "aquire". Or is that just BritSpeak? <G><BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:52:26 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
> Jason Barnabas wrote:<BR>
> >From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
> >>>Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
> >><BR>
> >> Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month<BR>
> >> pre-mature...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Why?  My momma says that first born children are usually<BR>
> >premature.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Aren't there some societies where a man won't marry a woman unless<BR>
> he can get her pregnant first? Just to insure a supply of heirs?<BR>
><BR>
> (I may be channeling misremembered Heinlein as history, though. <G>)<BR>
<BR>
While I wouldn't question your channeling ability, there are<BR>
indeed societies where a woman will not be married until she<BR>
gets pregnant.<BR>
<BR>
I understand that in ancient Greece women weren't allowed<BR>
to marry until they had prostituted themselves for a goddess.<BR>
I don't remember which one, but I do remember that they<BR>
wore sandals that and an obverse message on them.  Where<BR>
they walked, the message was pressed into the sand.  The<BR>
message?  "Follow me."<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:53:01 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Aging Rolls<BR>
<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >This came up in the study of Dolly and her clones...the clones had<BR>
> >telomeres the length of the adult sheep; hence the lambs should start<BR>
> >shoing the signs of aging much more rapidly.<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry if this has been answered - I'm a bit behind - but the lambs<BR>
> haven't aged more rapidly - the telomere theory is being re-thought.<BR>
<BR>
My understanding of the matter is that the clones will start<BR>
showing signs of aging about the same time as Dolly does.<BR>
IIRC, Dolly was not a particularly old sheep when the clones<BR>
were started, so the answer to this will probably be some<BR>
time in coming.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that the clones will grow up normally, but their<BR>
"prime of life" will be unusually short.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:54:06 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Economics IMTU (Was:  Re: robot economics)<BR>
<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Jason T. Barnabas writes:<BR>
> >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
><BR>
> Pleeeeez avoid the MIME stuff, it filled about 50% of<BR>
> the digest with gobbledy-gook   :)<BR>
<BR>
My appologies for forgetting to convert back to plain text.  I<BR>
use HTML to make sure that I have the "tables" lined up<BR>
properly in a proportional font and then switch back to plain<BR>
text, only this time...<BR>
<BR>
> >IMTU, most banks will not finance robots per se.  Most of the=20<BR>
> >manufacturers of robots; however, will.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
> That is consistent with current practice, as most expensive<BR>
> items can be financed where you buy them.<BR>
><BR>
> >3D    Interest<BR>
> > 5- Preferred<BR>
> > 6  Preferred + 0.25%<BR>
> > 7  Preferred + 0.50%<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >As long as I'm on the topic, IMTU, the Prime Rate ranges=20<BR>
> >from 3.5% to 5.5% ((4D + 31) / 10) and banks generally=20<BR>
> >make preferred rate loans (capital loans) at c. 1% over=20<BR>
> >prime.  Most economies tend to be fairly stable.  The prime=20<BR>
> >generally remains fairly close to 4.5%.<BR>
><BR>
> Cool stuff, but more involved than I want to get.<BR>
<BR>
Prime rates are usually only checked during worldgen or<BR>
when first contact with the world is made by PCs.  As I said,<BR>
it remains pretty constant.  It might fluctuate a few mils<BR>
(1 mil = 0.1%) one way or the other depending upon local<BR>
economies, both planetary and interstellar.<BR>
<BR>
I enjoy watching the PCs going from planet to planet looking<BR>
for financing and it can be a good adventure hook.  I have<BR>
used bank execs (BE) as patrons.  BE approaches PC and<BR>
says, "I understand you are looking for financing for your new<BR>
starship.  If you will undertake a mission, I can guarentee to<BR>
get you a loan below the preferred rate by X.<BR>
<BR>
It makes a good hook for most.  A quarter of a point can<BR>
mean a 5 figure savings on montly payments and a 7 figure<BR>
savings in overall financing costs (12-15 kCr/ 5-8 MCr on a<BR>
100 MCr purchase).<BR>
<BR>
I also allow negotiations for construction costs with the ship<BR>
yard.  Constuction casts are generally 4D+76% of the<BR>
original design price for unique vessels and (4D+76%) times<BR>
the discounted price for standard vessels.<BR>
<BR>
Also, because there are different exchange rates between<BR>
some local currencies and the Cr, you can have some fun<BR>
and make some money by playing the ends agains the<BR>
middle.<BR>
<BR>
As a player under similar conditions I have worked all kinds<BR>
of great deals.  In one game, I played a merchant captain<BR>
named Ickabod Mortamer.  Icky had made a life study of<BR>
trading and merchandizing from the earliest history of Earth,<BR>
which would become important later.  When Icky was thinking<BR>
about getting a new vessel, he decided to dig through some<BR>
old designs that he had in his (rather extesive) database and<BR>
found an old design that suited his needs with only a few<BR>
minor modifications.<BR>
<BR>
Icky sent the design to all the yards local to his base of ops<BR>
and got bids from each, then went to the best of these for<BR>
in person negotiations.  By the time it was over, he had<BR>
talked them into a "rebate" deal whereby he didn't need to<BR>
make a downpayment provided he procured financing<BR>
before they actually started work on the project.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, the original design cost was something like 240 Mcr.<BR>
Which he got down to something like 144 Mcr.  The final<BR>
figure was c. 180 Mcr, but the yard gave him a rebate of c. 36<BR>
Mcr in the form of a letter of credit which he used as a<BR>
downpayment.  He arranged financing offworld in the amount<BR>
of 180 MCr (less the 36 MCr downpayment of course) and<BR>
the exchange rate was favorable so he wound up with a<BR>
heafty sum in his pocket (enought to make several<BR>
payments) plus a starship.  The yard got the contract.  The<BR>
bank earned interest.  Everyone was happy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> How long does the<BR>
> >> typical robot last? =20<BR>
> >IMTU, things are built to last.  With proper maintenance, a=20<BR>
> >high tech=20<BR>
> >robot will last millennia.  This is one of the reasons that=20<BR>
> >people don't like having them around.<BR>
><BR>
> It also makes them virtually free in the long term, unless<BR>
> they are so expensive that the initial purchase price is<BR>
> astronomical.<BR>
<BR>
Proper maintenance means that everything but the brain is<BR>
replaced or rebuilt every so often.  A positronic brain is solid<BR>
state and once activated, remains active until distroyed,<BR>
even without power.<BR>
<BR>
Maintenance costs are higher IMTU than they are in the<BR>
OTU.  They start off at 1%, just like in the OTU, but after a<BR>
while they start to go up.  They are AA/TL%  where AA is the<BR>
active age of the unit.  AA is not necessarily the same as the<BR>
age of the unit, after all, a unit that only works during loading<BR>
and unloading of cargo will not receive the wear and tear that<BR>
one that is constantly active does.<BR>
<BR>
Depending upon the cost analysis done by the PCs they may<BR>
decide to replace the body entirely and start over at 1%<BR>
whenever they want to perhaps at a higher TL, yet keep the<BR>
same personality they have had all along.<BR>
<BR>
Depending upon the degree of autonomy allowed the robot,<BR>
it might even offer input as to what would be best for itself.  If<BR>
its brain incorporates the third law, it almost certainly will<BR>
offer an opinion.<BR>
<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >This same technology can be used to transfer a personality=20<BR>
> >from an organic body to a robotic one* (rarely done) or from=20<BR>
> >an old body to a clone**.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
> Do you mean "transfered", or do you mean "replicated?"<BR>
> Copying a personality and "puting" it in a robot or<BR>
> clone (this probably requires some serious hand-waving)<BR>
> does not destroy the original (unless there is another<BR>
> handwave), therefore all you have done is created a<BR>
> double of yourself who will live while you die.<BR>
<BR>
I guess that I mean replicated.  The personality is copied<BR>
into the device and then copied into the "new" body.<BR>
<BR>
> >> How much upkeep and maintenance does it<BR>
> >> require?<BR>
> >About the same as a vehicle of a similar size and complexity.<BR>
><BR>
> Which would be... ?  The 1% of cost per annum sounds good,<BR>
> but that still depends on how much you are charging for the<BR>
> unit.<BR>
><BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >Android robots also require the use of a "disguise kit" to=20<BR>
> >keep their appearance completely human (or alien, as the=20<BR>
><BR>
> IMTU, robots that can pass for human are TL 16+.  At<BR>
> lower TL, they might fool you if they don't move around<BR>
> or converse too much.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU mechs are fairly easily detectable as such up to TL 12.<BR>
There are programs that make it more difficult.  OTOH,<BR>
biological bodies become available at about the same point<BR>
regeneration and cultured clones.  Since the biological body<BR>
is structually the same as any other human (or alien) body,<BR>
once the robot learns to walk and talk, there is no way to tell<BR>
the difference.  There is no difference to tell.<BR>
<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >Automatons are also=20<BR>
> >available at TL 7.  Onboard computers are available at TL8. =20<BR>
> >Improved robotic computers become available at TL 9. =20<BR>
> >Crude robotic "brains" (duotronic) become available at TL=20<BR>
> >10 and are improved at TL11.  At TL 12 positronic brains=20<BR>
> >become available.  These offer a very limited form of AI. =20<BR>
> >Improvements continue up to about TL 15 where positronic=20<BR>
> >brains are the ultimate in cybernetic devices.<BR>
><BR>
> I assume that there are a lot of robots IYTU, what is your<BR>
> rational for having human starships crews, etc., or do you<BR>
> have them?<BR>
<BR>
See next group of comments.<BR>
<BR>
> >By custom, all independent robots are required to=20<BR>
> >incorporate at least the first and second of Dr. Asimov's laws=20<BR>
> >of robotics.  If you know where to look IMTU, you will find=20<BR>
> >planets inhabited by robots exclusively.  Every member of=20<BR>
> >these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.<BR>
><BR>
> What is the fourth? I know just 3.<BR>
<BR>
There is no fourth.  There is a zeroth.  Translated into<BR>
English, it would go something like:  "No robot may cause<BR>
harm to humaniti nor by inaction allow humaniti to come to<BR>
harm."<BR>
<BR>
The robots at the core of the robotic worlds have foreseen<BR>
the damage that robots can do to a society and are behind<BR>
the anti-robot sentiments.  They are responsible for some of<BR>
the novels and movies that casts robots as villians out to<BR>
destroy humaniti, which oddly enough keeps their general<BR>
acceptance levels down.<BR>
<BR>
> >> This may be a stretch, but it would be<BR>
> >> nice to have some sort of limit on how many robots you can<BR>
> >> carry (perhaps just a limit of 1 per stateroom, or up to 8 in<BR>
> >> an unoccupied stateroom).<BR>
> >Depending upon design, that seems a little excessive. =20<BR>
> >Besides, what is a robot going to use all that space for? =20<BR>
> >And, why would it need the amenities that a human might?<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear here.  I meant that<BR>
> one might limit the robots on a ship to one for every<BR>
> human-occupied stateroom, or stand 8 in a stateroom that<BR>
> is not occupied by any humans (or other sophonts).  This<BR>
> would allow room for the robots to come and go, for<BR>
> techs to get in and do maintainance, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, again, I don't see any reason they would need more<BR>
than 4x their volume for maintenance.  If you had human<BR>
sized/shaped robots you could use a bay no larger than a<BR>
sanitary facility (c. 1/4 Td) to store/maintain a dozen or more.<BR>
A stateroom (at 4 Td) should provide sufficient space to store<BR>
and maintain over 200 such robots.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
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- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:05:05 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 1:48:36 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< (I may be channeling misremembered Heinlein as history, though. <G>)<BR>
 <BR>
 Walt Smith<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
And this is a bad thing? <g><BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester (get it?)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:08:01 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino writes:<BR>
<BR>
>A couple of decades ago a sci-fi writer wrote a short story about the<BR>
>Supreme Court deciding that only the Federal government could regulate<BR>
>traffic on the Interstates. Since (in the story) Congress didn't want to<BR>
>pony up the funds to support a federal highway patrol there was no law<BR>
>enforcement on the Interstates. Drivers beefed up their armored vehicles<BR>
>with high tech weaponry ala Car Wars. The hero of the story had to deliver a<BR>
>package out of state for his son (who died trying to make the delivery.) The<BR>
>protagonist was an "Ace" with a number of kills from when he was a young<BR>
>blade. The title of the story? "Drive Offensively."<BR>
 <BR>
Alan Dean Foster. Name of the story was _Why Johnny can't speed_. The "moral"/<BR>
punchline  of the story was: 'Be safe, drive offensively.'<BR>
<BR>
I've always assumed that this story was the inspiration for Car Wars (This<BR>
should not be taken as an accusation that Steve Jackson ripped off Alan<BR>
Dean Foster in any way).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this illustrates the difference between an idea/concept and a<BR>
copyrighted story. (If you know of earlier stories with guns on cars than<BR>
_Why Johnny can't speed_ by all means let me know, but if Foster wasn't the<BR>
first writer to feature the concept of putting guns on cars and shooting it<BR>
out with the other assholes on the road, someone else was. The point remains<BR>
the same). The point is that writing another story or making a game featuring<BR>
weapons on cars is not an infringement of Foster's copyright. Writing a story<BR>
featuring the driver in Foster's story, or a prequel featuring Johnny, would<BR>
be.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"...all at once I UNDERSTOOD just WHY it is that men FIGHT each other.<BR>
I suddenly saw the ANSWER to all this SENSELESS VIOLENCE that afflicts us!<BR>
<BR>
But, like, I didn't write it down or anything and, like, y'know how it is -<BR>
next morning I had totally forgotten what it WAS, man."<BR>
<BR>
			"DR and Quinch get drafted" from _2000 AD_<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:08:13 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Army Stuff<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 1:48:36 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Someone (here?) mentioned a motto at a military training school,<BR>
 perhaps written over the door of the people who taught camoflage<BR>
 techniques:<BR>
 <BR>
 "If they can see you, they can kill you. Hide!"<BR>
 <BR>
 Walt Smith >><BR>
        <BR>
Murphy's 12th Rule of Combat :<BR>
    "Don't look conspicuous; it draws fire" (This is why many people don't <BR>
like serving on aircraft carriers (aka Bomb-magnets)).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:10:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> ISTR from friends who visited the USA that the US 'Driving Test' at <BR>
> best consists of driving around a mock road. (Please correct me if <BR>
> wrong).<BR>
<BR>
Hm...in my experience it calls for a series of specific manuevers, in a parking<BR>
lot and then on a street, plus a written test on the laws of the road which<BR>
requires something like 80-90% correct as I recall, plus a vision test.  <BR>
The driving test is normally only required once, though there's a move underway<BR>
in some areas to require additional driving tests of the elderly (who are<BR>
likely to lose driving proficiency).  None of it is terribly hard, in part<BR>
because the DMV is notoriously overworked (and slow).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:15:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyrightAt <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
>>to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
>Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is<BR>
>no such right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
<BR>
It seems to me that the Supreme Court has found a constitutional<BR>
right to travel in the 14th Amendment's privileges and<BR>
immunities clause -- but it's been a very long time since my<BR>
constitutional law class.<BR>
<BR>
There is no constitutional right to free travel, nor to<BR>
government-subsidized travel.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:17:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 <BR>
<BR>
>>But now... YOU would DARE to present us with a Traveller <BR>
>>universe that isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING<BR>
<BR>
>>sacred?!?!<BR>
>Shhh.. I was placating Jens.. Trust me, in GF the sunburst is<BR>
>replaced with the stars and stripes, Imperial troops wear steel<BR>
<BR>
>pots with the chinstraps undone, and the Zhodani are all played<BR>
<BR>
>by Max Von Sydow, Richard Munch, Siegfried Rauch and Karl<BR>
>Michael Vogler.<BR>
<BR>
So Jurgen Prochnow is playing a Sword Worlds leader?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:22:11 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: My copyright claim (Was:  Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright))<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 14:44 -0500 15/2/00, Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net> wrote:<BR>
> >From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> > > There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in<BR>
there,<BR>
> > > and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
> > > Amendment right to peaceably assemble.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> <Snipped copyright material><BR>
><BR>
> > 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
><BR>
> I don't believe you can claim copyright of the material Doug posted,<BR>
> only the material you post. Your statement is wrong.<BR>
<BR>
The material posted by Doug is quoted and credited.  I didn't<BR>
claim a copyright on it.<BR>
<BR>
In this post, your words are also quoted and attributed.  I am<BR>
claiming no copyright to them either.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
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<BR>
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- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
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<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:24:58 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
>> Huhn? As a tanker in the '80's I lived in that danm grease paint. Was<BR>
this<BR>
>> something that changed in those 20 years? I hated that fu*^%$#g paint far<BR>
>> worse than C-Rats or MRE's ... In the reserves the worst treatment was<BR>
>> reserved for officers that actually made us wear that sh*t.<BR>
>><BR>
>> You could always tell the officers that came  up the ranks - they hated<BR>
the<BR>
>> sh*t as much as we did...<BR>
><BR>
>Well, there's a simple way of dealing with *that*... "forget" and<BR>
>"accidentally" salute the jerk in the field.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
    But Snipers may carry RPG's too (that's grenades you bozo's! I just know<BR>
someone will say "What system?")<BR>
    JIm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1929<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1930</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 15 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1930<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Constitutional right to travel <BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: JTAS Copyright (But is getting WAY OT)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
Re: A real world example <BR>
Insidious Detector Vans (was irrelevant stuff)<BR>
some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
Alan Dean Foster<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: RE:zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)... Huh?<BR>
Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
[none]<BR>
[none]<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Army Stuff<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: A real world example...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:38:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
Jim & Peta Lawrie writes:<BR>
<BR>
>     But Snipers may carry RPG's too (that's grenades you bozo's! I just<BR>
>     know <BR>
> someone will say "What system?")<BR>
<BR>
Hm...actually, I think I'd call an RPG-7 an unguided missile launcher, not<BR>
a grenade launcher (yes, I know it means 'rocket propelled grenade').  In<BR>
any case its probably not the ideal weapon for sniping unless you're sniping<BR>
at vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:36:36 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Constitutional right to travel <BR>
<BR>
>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
>Subject: Constitutional right to travel (was: Re: Jtas<BR>
>copyright)<BR>
<BR>
>Edwards v California (312 US 473 [1941]); California tried to <BR>
>bar the 'Okie' migrants at the border, and the Court decided <BR>
>that it was an unconstitutional infringement on a right to <BR>
>travel.<BR>
<BR>
Based on the 14th Amendment's privileges and immunities clause?<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  There is no right to travel within or outside the<BR>
Imperium.  Anyone may apply for an Imperial passport.  The<BR>
Imperial authorities may or may not require an exit visa to<BR>
leave the Imperium, depending on present circumstances.  <BR>
<BR>
Please remind me to write the rules on travel within the<BR>
Imperium; I'm in a little bit of a rush to leave my office now.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:40:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Actually, the dreaded Detector Vans aren't able to detect <BR>
>*receivers* at all. They detect the radiated signal (ie <BR>
>*transmissions*) from the IF stages in superhet receivers. <BR>
>There are other types that could be used that they'd never <BR>
>detect. <BR>
<BR>
That's what the Ministry of Housinge wants you to think.  These<BR>
are actually cat detector vans.  They will later be used to find<BR>
unlicensed Aslan in the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:41:05 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
And this is how you can tell that the NZ Army hasn't been to war for<BR>
too long - The Powers That Be are in favour of nice ironed creases in<BR>
the standard day wear, which just happens to be the DPM (disruptive<BR>
pattern material) field uniform. Properly put in the creases will<BR>
probably come out about the time the wearer gets toasted. They've also<BR>
gone for dumb Aussie style shirts and brown boots, but that's a whole<BR>
other rant.<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
    Maybe they consider your only viable operations area is in Australia?<BR>
You Kiwi's aren't planning on invading are you? (and I don't include Bondi<BR>
in that statement)<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:41:57 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright (But is getting WAY OT)<BR>
<BR>
From: <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
> In a message dated 2/15/00 3:22:00 AM Central Standard Time, Jason T.<BR>
> Barnabas writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 01:19:04 -0800<BR>
>  From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
>  Subject: Re: JTAS Copyright<BR>
><BR>
>  From: <Damage169@cs.com><BR>
><BR>
>  > In a message dated 2/14/00 6:09:08 PM Central Standard Time, Jason T.<BR>
>  > Barnabas writes:<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > << Have you (Americans in general) ever wondered why America is looked<BR>
at<BR>
>  with<BR>
>  >  stunned bemusement by much of the rest of the world? >><BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > Our youthful good looks and naively charming ways? <g><BR>
><BR>
>  Yoh Simon,  I didn't write that.  Some bloke in the UK (or at<BR>
>  least with a .uk addy) did.<BR>
>  - --<BR>
>  Jason >><BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, my bad. After a while it gets hard counting the quotation divots.<BR>
><BR>
> Also, in an aside concerning the 'pointing out misspelling' section, even<BR>
he<BR>
> misspelled "acquire" as "aquire". Or is that just BritSpeak? <G><BR>
><BR>
> Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
I noticed, but I was too polite to mention it.  ;-)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----<BR>
Version: 3.2<BR>
GIT dpu s+:+>++:  a >- C++$ U? P+ L? E? W+++ N o? K? w(+) O? V? PS+(+++)<BR>
PE++ Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X(+) R+++ tv+ b++ DI++++ D G e~++ h r y+(-)<BR>
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------<BR>
 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:48:49 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1918<BR>
<BR>
>>     But Snipers may carry RPG's too (that's grenades you bozo's! I just<BR>
>>     know<BR>
>> someone will say "What system?")<BR>
><BR>
>Hm...actually, I think I'd call an RPG-7 an unguided missile launcher, not<BR>
>a grenade launcher (yes, I know it means 'rocket propelled grenade').  In<BR>
>any case its probably not the ideal weapon for sniping unless you're<BR>
sniping<BR>
>at vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
    Vietnamese Snipers evidently* liked to have an SA-7 or an RPG-7 stashed<BR>
nearby for targets of opportunity.<BR>
    Jim<BR>
    *I can't substantiate my claim here, it's hearsay.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:51:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:> <BR>
>>> >From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net>> <BR>
>>> >I bet you didn't know the Vilani are already among us...<BR>
>>> >http://folklora.lv/kopas/vilonisi/en.shtml> <BR>
>>That's scary!  Are they a covert op from the Ziru Sirka,<BR>
>>stationed here to watch what appears to be a hitherto<BR>
>>undiscovered minor human race, or are they refuseniks who have<BR>
>>rejected the Ziru Sirka and are living the Vilani way of life<BR>
>>here on Terra?  Have they realized that this is the ancestral<BR>
>>homeworld?  What have they done with their unemployed <BR>
>>shugilis?<BR>
>BAM!<BR>
<BR>
Stalin's solution to the problem of unemployed specialists who<BR>
have become redundant and therefore parasitic does seem<BR>
especially likely to have been adopted by people settling in a<BR>
Baltic region recently dominated by the USSR.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:56:50 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example <BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
>ISTR from friends who visited the USA that the US 'Driving <BR>
>Test' at  best consists of driving around a mock road. (Please <BR>
>correct me if wrong).<BR>
<BR>
I've been a licensed driver for about 25 years, in three<BR>
different states (at different times).  I have never taken a<BR>
driving test.  I have taken written tests several times, and<BR>
before I got my first license, I had an entire summer of<BR>
driver's training, sponsored by the local school district.  (The<BR>
states are Idaho, Utah, and California.)  I have not taken a<BR>
written test in California since 1992, when I got my first<BR>
license.  Because my driving record is good, the state just<BR>
sends me a new license every four years.  (I think I'm required<BR>
to do the written test again after the third such renewal.)<BR>
<BR>
Written tests were all 70% correct to pass, if I recall<BR>
correctly.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:59:22 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Insidious Detector Vans (was irrelevant stuff)<BR>
<BR>
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >Actually, the dreaded Detector Vans aren't able to detect<BR>
> >*receivers* at all. They detect the radiated signal (ie<BR>
> >*transmissions*) from the IF stages in superhet receivers.<BR>
> >There are other types that could be used that they'd never<BR>
> >detect.<BR>
<BR>
So, what are these other ways? I haven't actually built anything analog in<BR>
quite a while. How do you get your signal down to baseband? I am assuming<BR>
that these Detector Vans are detecting the LO from the IF stage. Is that<BR>
true?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:09:46 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
<BR>
 >        Article IV, Section 1: "Full faith and credit shall be given in each<BR>
 >state to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every<BR>
 >other state."<BR>
<BR>
Routinely ignored on a daily basis...email me directly for an example.<BR>
That's a TML rathole...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free<BR>
state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be<BR>
infringed.  -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:20:57 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Alan Dean Foster<BR>
<BR>
 >A couple of decades ago a sci-fi writer wrote a short story about the<BR>
 >Supreme Court deciding that only the Federal government could regulate<BR>
 >traffic on the Interstates. Since (in the story) Congress didn't want to<BR>
 >pony up the funds to support a federal highway patrol there was no law<BR>
 >enforcement on the Interstates. Drivers beefed up their armored vehicles<BR>
 >with high tech weaponry ala Car Wars. The hero of the story had to deliver a<BR>
 >package out of state for his son (who died trying to make the delivery.) The<BR>
 >protagonist was an "Ace" with a number of kills from when he was a young<BR>
 >blade. The title of the story? "Drive Offensively."<BR>
<BR>
Alan Dean Foster wrote this.<BR>
<BR>
His Flix/Commonwealth stories are good Traveller fodder.<BR>
<BR>
I also enjoyed his Mystic Mountain Man, Mad Amos.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend<BR>
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,<BR>
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY<BR>
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.<BR>
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:22:12 -0600<BR>
From: Richard Persky <ouroboros@mail.utexas.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
> I understand that in ancient Greece women weren't allowed<BR>
> to marry until they had prostituted themselves for a goddess.<BR>
> I don't remember which one, but I do remember that they<BR>
> wore sandals that and an obverse message on them.  Where<BR>
> they walked, the message was pressed into the sand.  The<BR>
> message?  "Follow me."<BR>
<BR>
    You're mixing two stories there; sacred prostitution was more of a Near<BR>
East thing, which Herodotus included in his _Histories_ as an example of a<BR>
weird foreign custom.  The "Follow me" sandals were attributed to<BR>
prostitutes somewhere in the Greco-Roman world, but I don't remember exactly<BR>
when or where.<BR>
<BR>
  Richard<BR>
(Classicist-in-training)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:31:25 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: RE:zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)... Huh?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com><BR>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 4:25 AM<BR>
Subject: RE:zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >The latter was due to many cases of legal transferal of ownership, but<BR>
> >re-possession of the vehicle by a lending organization, leaving the<BR>
> >purchasers out of pocket with no car, and usually little chance of<BR>
> >recovering it from the seller.<BR>
> ><BR>
> I gotta say that this is unbelievable. Not that I don't believe you. It's<BR>
> just that in the U.S. the papers on a car, the so called "pink slip" are<BR>
> held by the holder of the lien. You can't sell the car, legally without<BR>
the<BR>
> pink slip. If you want to sell a car that you still owe money on the buyer<BR>
> has to pay off the loan, give the difference to the seller and get the<BR>
pink<BR>
> slip from the lien holder. Doing it any other way means you don't own the<BR>
> car. If the seller uses a fake pink slip to fool the buyer the buyer's out<BR>
> of luck, but probably not criminally libel. Of course in most cases now<BR>
days<BR>
> the buyer is financing the purchase and his bank deals with the seller's<BR>
> bank and they send the pink from one bank to the other.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I posted not to far back about how people buying a stolen vehicle could have<BR>
it repossessed without compensation and I think some people had a hart time<BR>
believing the poor buggers couldn't sue someone to at least get their money<BR>
back...<BR>
<BR>
It was on the news and current affairs just last week about a recent Police<BR>
operation to ID and the round-up of a few dozen stolen vehicles that were<BR>
returned to their rightful owners (or if insurance had been paid out, to the<BR>
insurer in question).  The vehicles were seized from people that had paid<BR>
good money AND checked the legal status of the vehicles before purchase.<BR>
These people were both without the vehicle and have (to quote one bluey) "No<BR>
chance of getting their money back..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
PS: Oh yes, the legal check was to determine if there was any outstanding<BR>
monies owing or if the vehicle was on a stolen list... it was one of those<BR>
scams involving stolen cars having compliance plates from<BR>
wrecked/written-off vehicles fitted (something that is considered very<BR>
difficult to do over the last several years here in Oz - for some technical<BR>
reason that I am not sure of - but some wags got away with for some months<BR>
recently, it seems).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:33:17 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 6:27 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
> >    Do you Kiwi's have an airforce? Ha! And sheep might fly!   <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> They don't so much fly as plummet, actually.<BR>
> <BR>
> That makes them very well suited to use as "livefall" ordnance. <BR>
> Their terrified bleating on the way down would strike terror<BR>
> into the hearts of ground troops, and of course they will make a<BR>
> horrible biohazard mess upon or within a few days after impact. <BR>
<BR>
You've played the "Worms" computer game then, have you?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:36:04 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Not to get too far into it, but messing with you about a car or license is <BR>
okay for safety. Stopping you from driving without a good reason is not. <BR>
Stopping you from going from one place to another at all is a real no-no.<BR>
<BR>
There are different "tests" for screwing with your constitutional rights. The <BR>
Supreme Courts picks one for each sitution, and that decides whether the <BR>
state or the citizen wins.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 5:05:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Given that the courts have not since overturned the ability of the states <BR>
to<BR>
 license vehicles, one assumes that the court's interpretation of this right<BR>
 is not enormously broad.  In any case, the constitution doesn't require<BR>
 completely free interstate commerce, it just doesn't allow taxing or <BR>
 preferential treatment, and gives the federal government the ability to<BR>
 regulate interstate commerce. <BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:27:14 -0600<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
In <v04210108b4cf96695365@[195.102.200.102]>, on 02/15/00 <BR>
   at 11:54 PM, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>ISTR from friends who visited the USA that the US 'Driving Test' at  best<BR>
>consists of driving around a mock road. (Please correct me if  wrong).<BR>
<BR>
Dom, it varies from state to state.<BR>
<BR>
>The UK test has a written exam (>90% correct to pass, again IIRC)  plus<BR>
>at least 30 minutes on the real road with an examiner, who has a  number<BR>
>of maneuvers which must be demonstrated *whatever* the  conditions that<BR>
>the test is conducted under. Poor weather is not  considered an excuse<BR>
>for poor control. You can fail for a big mistake  or for a number of<BR>
>smaller ones. Once you pass your provisional  license to drive on public<BR>
>roads is converted to a full license.<BR>
<BR>
That's just about how it is in my state, Florida. There is an eye exam,<BR>
followed by a written exam that requires, I think it's, 75% to pass, then<BR>
the driving exam. The driving is on regular streets and roads and includes<BR>
several maneuvers...including the dreaded parallel parking maneuver. You<BR>
have to pass all three parts to receive a license, and if you require<BR>
corrective lenses to pass the vision test you get a restricted license.<BR>
It's not uncommon for people to fail these tests.<BR>
<BR>
After the initial test you are retested everytime your license comes up<BR>
for renewal. The retest *is* simpler, consisting of an easy road signs<BR>
test and the vision check. If you are licensed in another state and are<BR>
just getting a Florida license, I think you get a test somewhere in the<BR>
middle between the easy renewal and the harder first test, but I'm not<BR>
sure about that.<BR>
<BR>
>And we drive on the left, and have roundabouts.. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
And we have folks that drive on the left and cause head on collisions,<BR>
too. ;-p<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:31:59 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>At 07:27 am 2/15/00, you wrote:<BR>
>>At 11:16 AM 2/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>Let me give you a real world example.  In the UsA, the right<BR>
>>>to travel is a constitutionally guarenteed right.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Unless they've added something while I wasn't looking, there is no<BR>
>such<BR>
>>right listed in the Constitution.<BR>
><BR>
>	For those who wish to check, it's on my website. No, not the real<BR>
>thing, an HTML imitation. Of course, who's to say I haven't edited<BR>
>it? Or the folks at the Gutenberg project maybe tampered with it ...<BR>
>perhaps we better go to Washington and check it ourselves. Oh no! The<BR>
>evil oppressive Federal Government Conspiracy will prevent us from<BR>
>Travelling there!<BR>
><BR>
>	Besides, the original's already been doctored by the Greys anyway.<BR>
><BR>
<paranoid mode>No, the nobles and megacorps have caused it to be taken off<BR>
display soon, and hidden away for several years, while they doctor a new<BR>
version...</paranoid mode><BR>
<BR>
Seriously, the original will be going off display soon for restoration work.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:49:35 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>At 14:44 -0500 15/2/00, Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net> wrote:<BR>
>>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>> > There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in there,<BR>
>> > and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
>> > Amendment right to peaceably assemble.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
><Snipped copyright material><BR>
><BR>
>> 2000 by Jason Theophilos Barnabas<BR>
><BR>
>I don't believe you can claim copyright of the material Doug posted,<BR>
>only the material you post. Your statement is wrong.<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
Under US fair use guidelines, he may very well be able to do so. You see,<BR>
the US copyright code contains Sh**-Loads of exceptions, exemptions, and<BR>
the fair use clauses.<BR>
<BR>
Under fair use, one can, provided it is "Not a substantial portion of the<BR>
original", use quotes of copyrighted material, in order to explicate,<BR>
explain, review, or reply to said material, and the original author has no<BR>
rights provided that all the following are followed:<BR>
1) I do not misquote or exhibit malfeasance in my methods of quoting<BR>
2) all quotations are attributed correctly<BR>
3) do not attempt to devalue his copyright<BR>
4) acknowledge any applicable trademarks<BR>
5) the quote itself is incedental to the whole of the work<BR>
<BR>
The assumption is, however, that the quoted material remains copyrighted as<BR>
appropriate by the original author, as such use does not constitute<BR>
challenge; however, the incedental clause makes it iffy for some of the<BR>
bits. For music, the limit is 8 bars.<BR>
<BR>
Another interesting bit is "Archival Copying"; I can, should I wish, make a<BR>
photocopy of a copyrighted work, use the copy, and keep the original,<BR>
provided that the original is NOT used, is stored securely, and neither the<BR>
copy nor original is sold, loaned, transferred, etc.. This provision is<BR>
particularly important to musicians: Typically, most academic musicians<BR>
will buy themself a copy of a book of music, make a copy for use in<BR>
practice/performance, and store the book. THey often annotate the copy, as<BR>
well. Technically, if they make a new copy, they MUST destroy the previous<BR>
copy. Likewise, many school music programs buy 30 copies of a piece, but<BR>
hand out 30 photocopies instead. Again, fair use, provided the photocopies<BR>
are destroyed prior to new ones or use of the 30 "Manufacturer printed"<BR>
copies.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:02:46 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>> > and has no written coherent constitution?<BR>
>> Good Thing. It saves arguments.<BR>
><BR>
>That's right, you can't argue about your rights if you don't have any!<BR>
<BR>
  Charles would have liked that argument, but that sort of thinking really<BR>
didn't help him get ahead in the long run.                             :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:28:34 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Army Stuff<BR>
<BR>
Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Murphy's 12th Rule of Combat :<BR>
>     "Don't look conspicuous; it draws fire" (This is why many people don't<BR>
> like serving on aircraft carriers (aka Bomb-magnets)).<BR>
<BR>
 No, the food on carriers isn't so hot.<BR>
<BR>
Best food was on a sub.<BR>
<BR>
The 2nd best was on a repair ship.<BR>
<BR>
The worst was at NTC san deigo.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:05:14 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>Alan Dean Foster. Name of the story was _Why Johnny can't speed_. The "moral"/<BR>
>punchline  of the story was: 'Be safe, drive offensively.'<BR>
><BR>
>I've always assumed that this story was the inspiration for Car Wars (This<BR>
>should not be taken as an accusation that Steve Jackson ripped off Alan<BR>
>Dean Foster in any way).<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, this illustrates the difference between an idea/concept and a<BR>
>copyrighted story. (If you know of earlier stories with guns on cars than<BR>
>_Why Johnny can't speed_ by all means let me know, but if Foster wasn't the<BR>
>first writer to feature the concept of putting guns on cars and shooting it<BR>
>out with the other assholes on the road, someone else was. The point remains<BR>
>the same). The point is that writing another story or making a game featuring<BR>
>weapons on cars is not an infringement of Foster's copyright. Writing a story<BR>
>featuring the driver in Foster's story, or a prequel featuring Johnny, would<BR>
>be.<BR>
<BR>
And SGJ in _Car Wars_ cited several works that inspired them to write it.<BR>
One of the neat things about US Copyright is that Derivation can be<BR>
ingnored if the deriver can point to multiple sources of inspiration that<BR>
are all close to each other in nature, but not directly related.<BR>
<BR>
So, take Conan, and several other novels of different authors but similar<BR>
nature, and you can write a "Big Barbarians with Bulging Muscles Seeking<BR>
Revenge" novel with out fear, so long as you can show you had MULTIPLE<BR>
unrelated  inspirations.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:05:03 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Feb 00, at 16:52, Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
> > Jason Barnabas wrote:<BR>
> > >From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
> > >>>Anyone seen the figures for illegitimate births around 1800? <G><BR>
> > >><BR>
> > >> Don't forget to add the figures for first born children born a month<BR>
> > >> pre-mature...<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >Why?  My momma says that first born children are usually<BR>
> > >premature.  ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Aren't there some societies where a man won't marry a woman unless<BR>
> > he can get her pregnant first? Just to insure a supply of heirs?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > (I may be channeling misremembered Heinlein as history, though. <G>)<BR>
> <BR>
> While I wouldn't question your channeling ability, there are<BR>
> indeed societies where a woman will not be married until she<BR>
> gets pregnant.<BR>
> <BR>
> I understand that in ancient Greece women weren't allowed<BR>
> to marry until they had prostituted themselves for a goddess.<BR>
> I don't remember which one, but I do remember that they<BR>
> wore sandals that and an obverse message on them.  Where<BR>
> they walked, the message was pressed into the sand.  The<BR>
> message?  "Follow me."<BR>
<BR>
I've never heard about the sandals, but some cities used to have temple <BR>
protitutes. Corinth was one, probably because its patron deity was <BR>
Aphrodite, goddess of beauty, love, etc, etc.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:12:15 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 9:54 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was: Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> The UK test has a written exam (>90% correct to pass, again IIRC)<BR>
<BR>
In Queensland, Australia, it's pretty much the same... fail either 2 or 3<BR>
questions (I'm not sure) and you don't even get on the road, it's "Come back<BR>
later when you have learnt the answers" (usually a month or two between)<BR>
There is also, only three sets of different question sheets... fail three<BR>
times here and you get familiar Q's again.<BR>
<BR>
> plus at least 30 minutes on the real road with an examiner, who has a<BR>
> number of maneuvers which must be demonstrated *whatever* the<BR>
> conditions that the test is conducted under. Poor weather is not<BR>
> considered an excuse for poor control. You can fail for a big mistake<BR>
> or for a number of smaller ones. Once you pass your provisional<BR>
> license to drive on public roads is converted to a full license.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, this is familiar, though depending on the instructor/tester, you can be<BR>
doing the prac for an hour.<BR>
<BR>
Before they changed the testing centre codes in the late 70's, DL's were<BR>
performed from Police Stations and there was a local Testing Officer that<BR>
had a "Always fail the first test" creed.  To do this, there was a "cross<BR>
road" over the main road through Surfers Paradise (major tourist town), but<BR>
the main road was oneway, and the "cross road" was offset - meaning that you<BR>
could come out of the north road, cut across lanes on the highway, then turn<BR>
into the south road, but to do the oposite, you had to travel slightly in<BR>
the wrong direction on the highway.  He (the tester) would order you to<BR>
drive from the south road into the north road... if you complied, you<BR>
failed - dangerous driving, if you questioned him and did not comply, you<BR>
failed - you failed to comply with a lawful direction (as a copper, he had<BR>
certain powers).  Upon complaint and investigation, he was found to be doing<BR>
his duty correctly and no action was officially taken... his bosses did<BR>
however, take him aside and ask him not to, but he still did...<BR>
<BR>
Of course, a police friend in his younger days (before he was a blue),<BR>
almost failed his very first test when the instructor asked the question,<BR>
"What would you do if you were driving down this street and saw someone on<BR>
that balcony up there, about to jump off?  Would you continue to drive or<BR>
stop and call the police or ambulance?"  My friend answered, "I'd probably<BR>
stop and call the police!"  The reason he almost failed was because the<BR>
instructor felt he shouldn't be looking up so high when he should be<BR>
watching the road!  It turned out that it was a legitimate reason to fail<BR>
someone... if they had done badly on test questions and failed to many<BR>
"points" on the prac.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> And we drive on the left, and have roundabouts.. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Hey!  So do we :^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1930<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1931</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 16 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1931<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: long-term media<BR>
Airborne Sheep (was airforce motto)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1925<BR>
Re: Car Wars<BR>
NZ Army Isse Fieldwear<BR>
Signing Off for a while<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: Army (& Navy) Stuff<BR>
Pronunciation and the 3I (was Re: FYI)<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Nazis and Solomani (was Re: Instant Zombie Bullets?)<BR>
re: Surplus Economics (OT)<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED OT - Higher Education<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: UNCLASSIFIED OT - Higher Education<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Hostman made me laugh (people looking)<BR>
Re: Insidious Detector Vans (was irrelevant stuff)<BR>
re: A real world example<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Driver Testing in Oz<BR>
re: The complete story<BR>
RE: zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
RE: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
RE: a real world example<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: copyright<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:59:02 -0500<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: RE: long-term media<BR>
<BR>
> 	Not that long ago, 5 1/4 inch disks showed no sign of going<BR>
> 	out of style.  Granted, the CD-ROM will last much longer,<BR>
> 	but how hard will it be to find a machine that will read it<BR>
> 	in 20 years?<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, FMD drives will be coming out later this year.  They use a ten<BR>
layer flourescent (sp?) technology to pack 140 GBytes onto a disk<BR>
the same size as a CD-ROM, or DVD.  The devices will probably be<BR>
backward compatible with CD-ROM, but requires an extra laser of <BR>
the correct frequency.  Future versions may hold up to 1.4 TeraBytes.<BR>
<BR>
Other breakthroughs are being made in molecular circuitry that will <BR>
allow super-computers to be as small as a grain of sand.<BR>
<BR>
These advances take years or decades to reach commercial stages<BR>
of development, so don't throw out your desktops, laptops, and palmtops<BR>
yet.<BR>
<BR>
Who knows, in twenty years you may be able to copy all of your CD's into<BR>
a single advanced quantum storage cell, taking up no more space than that<BR>
of a medium sized protein molecule.<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:30:18 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Airborne Sheep (was airforce motto)<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
> >    Do you Kiwi's have an airforce? Ha! And sheep might fly!   <BR>
> They don't so much fly as plummet, actually.<BR>
<BR>
If you drop a sheep off a building, and it hits the ground with a splat, all <BR>
you have proven is that that particular sheep, on that occasion, either did <BR>
not fly or _chose not to_. Frankly, I think they can fly and are all sworn to <BR>
keep it a secret. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:30:16 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1925<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-02-15 14:44:48 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Shhh.. I was placating Jens.. Trust me, in GF the sunburst is replaced with<BR>
 the stars and stripes, Imperial troops wear steel pots with the chin straps<BR>
 undone, and the Zhodani are all played by Max Von Sydow, Richard Munch,<BR>
 Siegfried Rauch and Karl Michael Vogler. >><BR>
<BR>
Don't forget Hardy Kruger and Hans Christian Blech (although I think the <BR>
latter may have passed on).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:42:47 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Car Wars<BR>
<BR>
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
>Subject: Re: JTAS copyright<BR>
...<BR>
>I've always assumed that this story was the inspiration for Car Wars (This<BR>
>should not be taken as an accusation that Steve Jackson ripped off Alan<BR>
>Dean Foster in any way).<BR>
<BR>
  IIRC, the story was cited on the first page inside the old teensy-<BR>
weensy rule book.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, has anyone read the Car Wars novel that Mick Farren wrote for<BR>
SJG - is it any good?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:38:52 +1300<BR>
From: "Gray, Raymond" <rjgray@kpmg.co.nz><BR>
Subject: NZ Army Isse Fieldwear<BR>
<BR>
>And this is how you can tell that the NZ Army hasn't been to war for <BR>
>too long - The Powers That Be are in favour of nice ironed creases in <BR>
>the standard day wear, which just happens to be the DPM (disruptive <BR>
>pattern material) field uniform. Properly put in the creases will <BR>
>probably come out about the time the wearer gets toasted. They've also <BR>
>gone for dumb Aussie style shirts and brown boots, but that's a whole <BR>
>other rant.<BR>
<BR>
The NZ Army actually issues more than one set of fatigues to its soldiers.<BR>
One set is crisply ironed for parade wear whilst others are for day use and<BR>
one is specifically for field use.  As far as I am aware the brown boots<BR>
fiasco has been abandoned with the infantry slowly (!) getting the new <BR>
black boots (type eludes me) that QAMR (Queen Alexandras Mounted Rifles)<BR>
has had for a while.  The Australian shirt looks like pyjamas.  They <BR>
reportedly had trouble in East Timor because they impregnated all their <BR>
DPM shirts with a special insect repellant that actually made many <BR>
soldiers very sick due to acute allergic reaction.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav<BR>
The amount and quality of gear that the troopies are issued can greatly<BR>
affect<BR>
morale.  Poor boots for low TL troopies are a particular point of strife.<BR>
Low TL insurgents being supplied with high quality (even if it is low tech)<BR>
equipment in good supply can make for an interesting match for high TL<BR>
troops<BR>
that are running out of the necessities and with poor quality equipment.<BR>
<BR>
Scen<BR>
Insurgents supplied by offworld sponsor who gets the low TL gear cheap.<BR>
Raid <BR>
high TL troops to ruin morale.<BR>
<BR>
Raymond<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:40:08 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Signing Off for a while<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Just a quick note to let you know I'm signing off for a while. I love the TML,<BR>
but it is too much to keep track of at the moment. I may be back if my RL<BR>
workload pressures ease.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, I sat down the other day, tallied them up, and realised I have about 50<BR>
web page ideas I'd like to work on (and that's not counting Jump Points or<BR>
Library Data updates, either!!). The latest thing I created was a logo for "Lone<BR>
Scout Enterprises", Tavonni's starship builder.<BR>
<BR>
For those interested in my Beowulf Down site, I'll be updating my "Just<BR>
Detected" page each time I make a significant change.<BR>
<BR>
See you round!  ;-)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:48:23 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> >> The novels aren't "official".<BR>
> ><BR>
> > According to whom?<BR>
><BR>
> Paramount for one. they explicitly state that things that happen in the<BR>
> novels are *not* official. And most fans agree.<BR>
<BR>
Okay.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> >> Simple. *His* culture (and many others) has a market economy. Earth<BR>
> >> doesn't.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > How do you explain Jake Sisco's dad's restaurant?  Mr. Sisco<BR>
> > charges for meals.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh? Where is that established?<BR>
<BR>
In one episode a couple is seen leaving and he accepts<BR>
something which he puts in what looks like a register.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Again, you are using books as evidence, since the TV episodes and<BR>
> >> movies do *not* tell us *anything* about Yeoman Rand's background.<BR>
> >> This is a bad habit.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > It has been a very long time since I have seen any of TOS.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > But IIRC in one of the earliest episodes there is some<BR>
> > mention of her background.<BR>
><BR>
> I don't recall that.<BR>
><BR>
> > I also seem to recall<BR>
> > something from the episode where they find the planet with<BR>
> > children only.<BR>
><BR>
> Are you talking about "Miri?" or "And the Children Shall Lead"? "Miri"<BR>
> is a good episode. the *other* one is almost universally agreed to be<BR>
> one of the worst, if not *the* worst episodes they ever made!<BR>
<BR>
The one I'm talking about was where the adults died when<BR>
they gave the planet a world-wide antiagathic treatment.  The<BR>
change caused them to all go mad.  When the children<BR>
reached adulthood they turned into "grups" and went mad.<BR>
<BR>
I would have to agree with the general assessment.  Loved<BR>
"Miri."  Hated "And the Children Shall Lead."  Assuming I<BR>
described "Miri" in the preceding paragraph and that "And<BR>
the Children Shall Lead" was the one with the "angel" that the<BR>
children "summoned" with a hokey song and dance number.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
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http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:08:32 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Army (& Navy) Stuff<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 9:08:08 PM Central Standard Time, Evyn MacDude <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
 > Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
 >> Murphy's 12th Rule of Combat :<BR>
 >>     "Don't look conspicuous; it draws fire" (This is why many people don't<BR>
 >> like serving on aircraft carriers (aka Bomb-magnets)).<BR>
 <BR>
 > No, the food on carriers isn't so hot.<BR>
<BR>
Been there (USS Carl Vinson) while repairing a lot of stuff, always went to <BR>
the McDonald's.<BR>
 <BR>
 > Best food was on a sub.<BR>
<BR>
Been there (SSN_21 Seawolf) to fix some turbines. Had some great sub <BR>
sandwiches (NOT Punning).<BR>
 <BR>
 > The 2nd best was on a repair ship.<BR>
<BR>
Assigned there (AD-42 Acadia) for three years, always had to shoo the <BR>
destroyer and frigate crew back onto their ships just to find a place to sit <BR>
in the mess. Never had any trouble with the sub crews.<BR>
 <BR>
 > The worst was at NTC san deigo.<BR>
<BR>
Been there, hated it.<BR>
<BR>
OB Trav: I figure the XBoat Tenders would have some of the best cooks, for <BR>
the same reason subs have the best sooks now, as a psychological cushion/for <BR>
morale. After the XBoat pilot gets off his boat after eating prepaks for a <BR>
week, he's going to want some decent food. To get him back into his little <BR>
can, the food's going to have to be worth it.<BR>
Same with the SDBs, especially if they're expected to go guerilla if an <BR>
invader ever takes the system.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:39:20 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Pronunciation and the 3I (was Re: FYI)<BR>
<BR>
>> << David Dietrick >><BR>
>><BR>
>> D-e-i-<BR>
>><BR>
>> Dave, like Marc, dislikes it when people mispell his name, but they are<BR>
>> both too polite to mention it.<BR>
<BR>
> Is that German and pronounced Dye-trick or English and<BR>
> pronounced Dee-trick (or would that be Day-trick?)?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's pronounced "Throat-wobbler-mangrove."<BR>
<BR>
Trust me, I know what of I speak. :-)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Uh, Deitrick. Didn't he do some Traveller artwork? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
(who uses "Smith" when waiting on a table at restraunts in order to avoid<BR>
having to spell out "Dietrich" and then have them mangle it over the<BR>
intercom when a table opens up anyway ...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:50:27 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Not just a TV - you need a license to own *any* radio receiver - like the one<BR>
> > in your car!<BR>
> <BR>
> What if you have a radiophonic mouth (dental work that will recieve<BR>
> radio and let you hear it)?<BR>
<BR>
Watching "Partridge Family" re-runs, are we?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<<decides against posting off-color reference from said TV show>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:56:09 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Nazis and Solomani (was Re: Instant Zombie Bullets?)<BR>
<BR>
>> fascist are the Solomani anyway? Do you see the potential for them to<BR>
take<BR>
>> human supremacy (or even Solomani supremacy) to the point of xenocide?<BR>
<BR>
> Did you mean genocide, the complete and utter destruction<BR>
> of a species?  Or did you actually mean xenocide, the<BR>
> complete and utter destruction of everything not Solomani?<BR>
<BR>
Bah, either-or. ;-) I'm just trying to get some discussion on the nature of<BR>
the Solomani going.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:00:49 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Surplus Economics (OT)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>If they *couldn't*, then Voyager (for one) would constantly have to be<BR>
>finding replacement elements for the rarer elements used in things like<BR>
>shuttlecraft.<BR>
><BR>
>Instead, they seem to only need hydrogen, dilithium, and maybe an<BR>
>occasional anti-matter recharge.<BR>
<BR>
Well, the Voyager crew is always interested in trade, and apparently<BR>
not just for information - that implies resource scarcities. They've also <BR>
expressed interest that may have been more than just scientific in the <BR>
mineral makeup of some worlds they've visited, they may have made some <BR>
"mining stops".<BR>
<BR>
(I like Voyager, for all it's sins...and since I'm playing the Ground Survey <BR>
Officer for a ship in a PBeM game that's leaving soon for the great out there, <BR>
I've got an interest in ships far from home...<G>)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:20:01 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED OT - Higher Education<BR>
<BR>
Right, I just enrolled for the 3rd !@#$%^& university course (military<BR>
history), so I expect, nay demand, lots of un-credited help from you people.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
So be warned.<BR>
<BR>
.... And wish me luck (did you ever go into an enrollment hall and have a<BR>
panic attack along the lines of 'what the hell I am doing?' - that's me<BR>
baby).<BR>
<BR>
Oh, it's free - which is why I'm doing it.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav (I admit this is lip service); Do serving imperial military officers<BR>
get to go back to university for doctorates and the like ? - I know T4<BR>
CharGen had this facility. In Oz, some Staff College graduates get a<BR>
courtesy Masters on Administration (Military), so I guess maybe that's where<BR>
that could come in.<BR>
<BR>
What the hell am I doing?('It's free, F-R-E-E, free etc.')<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:41:54 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
> Alistair J. R. Young wrote:<BR>
> > ObExtremePedanticism: Technically, you only need a licence to<BR>
> > *use* a television. You can own one without a license. To be<BR>
> > extremely technical, you can even use a television without a<BR>
> > licence, provided that you only use it as, say, a monitor for<BR>
> > a home computer and never watch any broadcast television on it,<BR>
> > but that last is a bit of a bugger to prove unless the relevant<BR>
> > functionality has actually been disabled.<BR>
><BR>
> Unless this has changed recently you are in  error.  You  need  a<BR>
> licence to operate a broadcast  signal  receiver  (radio  or  TV)<BR>
> regardless of wether you can receive a signal or not:<BR>
<BR>
New Zealand certainy lets you get away with not paying a license fee if you<BR>
can show that the set is not being used for receiving television signals,<BR>
(and we don't have to pay if we only have a radio) but you basically need a<BR>
certificate stating that the tuner has been disabled.<BR>
<BR>
> Hmm, I wonder if plasma screens and LCD screens are detectable by<BR>
> Detector Vans?  (Detector Vans hunt out  unlicenced  TVs.)  As  I<BR>
> understand it they key off  the  radio  signals  emitted  by  the<BR>
> picture tube.<BR>
<BR>
Detector vans are a myth designed to trick gullible and guilty householders<BR>
into giving themselves away.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:34:58 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED OT - Higher Education<BR>
<BR>
>Right, I just enrolled for the 3rd !@#$%^& university course (military<BR>
>history), so I expect, nay demand, lots of un-credited help from you<BR>
people.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>So be warned.<BR>
><BR>
>.... And wish me luck (did you ever go into an enrollment hall and have a<BR>
>panic attack along the lines of 'what the hell I am doing?' - that's me<BR>
>baby).<BR>
>Michael<BR>
<BR>
    well, mines bloody expensive and when I got there I was about the same<BR>
age as the parents who were dropping their kids off. Who thought signing up<BR>
for a course could be so intimidating?<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:28:44 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Hostman made me laugh (people looking)<BR>
<BR>
So, take Conan, and several other novels of different authors but similar<BR>
nature, and you can write a "Big Barbarians with Bulging Muscles Seeking<BR>
Revenge" novel with out fear, so long as you can show you had MULTIPLE<BR>
unrelated  inspirations.<BR>
William F. Hostman<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Now that's funny.<BR>
<BR>
BTW - ever see Hercules goes Bananas ? Arnie flips his pecs around without<BR>
touching them. Eeerrgghhhhh shudder.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; There is none. None at all. None whatsoever. Unless I had said<BR>
Aslan go Bananas . . . which would have had no context. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:14:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Insidious Detector Vans (was irrelevant stuff)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>> >Actually, the dreaded Detector Vans aren't able to detect<BR>
>> >*receivers* at all. They detect the radiated signal (ie<BR>
>> >*transmissions*) from the IF stages in superhet receivers.<BR>
>> >There are other types that could be used that they'd never<BR>
>> >detect.<BR>
><BR>
> So, what are these other ways? I haven't actually built anything analog in<BR>
> quite a while. How do you get your signal down to baseband? I am assuming<BR>
> that these Detector Vans are detecting the LO from the IF stage. Is that<BR>
> true?<BR>
<BR>
No idea. I'm going by discussions in some of the radio magazines in the<BR>
70s & 80s.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:37:43 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: A real world example<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
>ISTR from friends who visited the USA that the US 'Driving Test' at <BR>
>best consists of driving around a mock road. (Please correct me if <BR>
>wrong).<BR>
<BR>
There isn't a US 'Driving Test' - each state has it's own. And, unofficially,<BR>
a lot of variation is imposed by the person giving the road test.<BR>
<BR>
In New York State, a vision test, written test and road test are required.<BR>
The written test is pretty straightforward, the road test is on real roads<BR>
with real traffic - pull out, drive at speed, stop, left turn, maybe some<BR>
more turns (that's really up to the tester), K-turn (that's where you turn<BR>
around in a street by turning a bit, backing up, turning a bit, backing<BR>
up, etc.), and of course the dreaded paralell parking.<BR>
<BR>
The fun part of the road test is the amount of leeway the tester has.<BR>
If he wants to see you merge onto a highway today, he'll direct you<BR>
onto a highway. A local tester I luckily avoided had a "fail all young men<BR>
on their first test, no exceptions" policy. My brother drove to a test site<BR>
(me riding beside him as licensed driver, him with his learner's permit),<BR>
his brakes squeaked as he stopped...the tester got into the car, glared<BR>
at him, and informed my brother first thing that he was going to fail the<BR>
road test, because the tester didn't like the sound of those brakes.<BR>
I can't decide if these guys are determined to protect the rest of us from<BR>
cocky young drivers, or if they just enjoy the power they feel when they<BR>
frustrate young people in the midst of one of the few adulthood rituals<BR>
American society has left.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:33:31 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Driver Testing in Oz<BR>
<BR>
Yep, this is familiar, though depending on the instructor/tester, you can be<BR>
doing the prac for an hour.<BR>
Before they changed the testing centre codes in the late 70's, DL's were<BR>
performed from Police Stations and there was a local Testing Officer that<BR>
had a "Always fail the first test" creed.  To do this, there was a "cross<BR>
road" over the main road through Surfers Paradise (major tourist town), but<BR>
the main road was oneway, and the "cross road" was offset - meaning that you<BR>
could come out of the north road, cut across lanes on the highway, then turn<BR>
into the south road, but to do the oposite, you had to travel slightly in<BR>
the wrong direction on the highway.  He (the tester) would order you to<BR>
drive from the south road into the north road... if you complied, you failed<BR>
- - dangerous driving, if you questioned him and did not comply, you failed -<BR>
you failed to comply with a lawful direction (as a copper, he had certain<BR>
powers).  Upon complaint and investigation, he was found to be doing his<BR>
duty correctly and no action was officially taken... his bosses did however,<BR>
take him aside and ask him not to, but he still did...<BR>
<BR>
The Roc<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I knew of this guy in my home town who was on his first attempt for his<BR>
Provisional license. As he drive out of the RTA exit (Roads and Traffic<BR>
Authority) he saw some mates across the road. Being young and dumb he<BR>
started honking enthusiastically and waving his arms about to say 'look at<BR>
me, goin' for my licence'. Instructor made him pull right back into the RTA<BR>
entrance and failed him for unnecessary use of the horn. Total time into<BR>
test - 12 seconds. <BR>
<BR>
God bless Australia. <BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:38:44 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: The complete story<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester wrote:<BR>
>><< (I may be channeling misremembered Heinlein as history, though. ><G>)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Walt Smith<BR>
>>  >><BR>
><BR>
>And this is a bad thing? <g><BR>
<BR>
It is if I'm misremembering it.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:06:06 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Terry Carlino<BR>
<BR>
> >The latter was due to many cases of legal transferal of ownership, but<BR>
> >re-possession of the vehicle by a lending organization, leaving the<BR>
> >purchasers out of pocket with no car, and usually little chance of<BR>
> >recovering it from the seller.<BR>
> ><BR>
> I gotta say that this is unbelievable. Not that I don't believe you. It's<BR>
> just that in the U.S. the papers on a car, the so called "pink slip" are<BR>
> held by the holder of the lien.<BR>
<BR>
This may be how it's done in the US, it's not how it's done in New Zealand.<BR>
(At least, not most of the time, I suspect it's possible it may have<BR>
happened on  occasion ). It may be due to the different attitude toward<BR>
banks and lending here.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt anyone would trust a bank or another lender enough to let them hold<BR>
the ownership papers over here, that would mean the bank was taking no risk,<BR>
which is what you're supposed to be paying the interest for.<BR>
<BR>
<Snip><BR>
> >Oh, and the fact that the paperwork was all in order and it was sold by a<BR>
> >reputable dealer won't help, they didn't know the original<BR>
> seller was going<BR>
> >to renege on paying back the loan, did they ?<BR>
><BR>
> What kind of reputable dealer would sell a ship it didn't have<BR>
> the title to?<BR>
<BR>
Point is, under the NZ system, the dealer _does_ own title, but that does<BR>
not prevent a creditor of the previous owner reopossessing the ship. That<BR>
the creditor failed to do so while the dealer held the title is just bad<BR>
luck for the buyer.<BR>
<BR>
<stuff about suspending liens snipped><BR>
<BR>
Well, that's an equivalent nasty trick to run on PC's<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:10:56 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
<BR>
> <Scene of curly-haired poppet in Impie Marine Combat<BR>
> Armor dancing>..."On the gooood ship, Kinuinir, ..."<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie Spofulum, the Shirley Temple of the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:20:32 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: a real world example<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Smith, Walter<BR>
<BR>
> Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> >That is the problem with driving without a licence to do so. You have<BR>
> >not proven that you are not a danger to others nearby. Therefore, you<BR>
> >cannot be allowed to drive, since that might harm other people. This is<BR>
> >true unless you mean to drive on a large, empty field, but that is<BR>
> >hardly anyone's idea of useful driving.<BR>
><BR>
> This strikes me as kind of funny.<BR>
><BR>
> In rural America, a large percentage of kids learn how to<BR>
> drive in "large, empty fields" - driving tractors, cars and pickup<BR>
> trucks on farms and ranches. Very useful driving, by the way.<BR>
><BR>
> A driver's license is not required to drive on private property,<BR>
<BR>
Ditto here in New Zealand. The first vehicle I learned to drive was a<BR>
tractor.<BR>
A tractor with a tray on the back, which when loaded with orchids meant the<BR>
front (steering) wheels rarely touched the ground. So I learned to drive a<BR>
tractor on the two back wheels, steering by differential braking in those<BR>
wheels.<BR>
<BR>
I was 13 at the time. Very useful driving experience.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:32:10 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Steve Daniels<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Believe it or not, the EU regulations actually require things that get<BR>
> > pretty weird.<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> Jumping Jehosophat!  Has the world gone mad?<BR>
<BR>
You think that's bad ?<BR>
<BR>
Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
<BR>
The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh water.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:20:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: copyright<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Another interesting bit is "Archival Copying"; I can, should I wish,<BR>
> make a photocopy of a copyrighted work, use the copy, and keep the<BR>
> original, provided that the original is NOT used, is stored securely,<BR>
> and neither the copy nor original is sold, loaned, transferred, etc..<BR>
> This provision is particularly important to musicians: Typically,<BR>
> most academic musicians will buy themself a copy of a book of music,<BR>
> make a copy for use in practice/performance, and store the book. THey<BR>
> often annotate the copy, as well. Technically, if they make a new<BR>
> copy, they MUST destroy the previous copy. Likewise, many school<BR>
> music programs buy 30 copies of a piece, but hand out 30 photocopies<BR>
> instead.  Again, fair use, provided the photocopies are destroyed<BR>
> prior to new ones or use of the 30 "Manufacturer printed" copies.<BR>
<BR>
Sort of like what we did at one place I worked. We'd buy X copies of a<BR>
package, which didn't have LAN user limiting built in. We'd install one<BR>
copy on the LAN and use various tools so that no more than X users<BR>
could access the executables at the same time. <BR>
<BR>
There were a few programs that were *so* braindead/LAN unfriendly, that<BR>
we actually *did* have to install seperate copies in seperate<BR>
directories. *And* rig things so only one user at a time could access<BR>
them (which was actually easier than allowing a limited number of<BR>
users). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1931<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1932</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 16 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1932<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright<BR>
Oppurtunity fire<BR>
Re Archival Copying<BR>
Re: Re Archival Copying<BR>
Re: Army (& Navy) Stuff<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Higher Education in the Military<BR>
Re: Airborne Sheep<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Re Archival Copying<BR>
Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
Re: A real world example<BR>
Re: Surplus Economics (OT)<BR>
Re: zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
Re: JTAS copyright<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Driver Testing in Oz<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Belter Alert!  RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
RE: Economics IMTU (Was: robot economics) long<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:32:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Licensing the operators of motor vehicles is becoming less about insuring <BR>
> safe motor vehicle operation and more about being a state issued <BR>
> identification card.  It's really tough to get along without ID, and a <BR>
> state drivers license is the most commonly accepted.  If you refuse to <BR>
> learn to drive (like one of my Philosophy profs, who knew that cars hated <BR>
> him by the way they looked at him), the state organization that issues <BR>
> drivers licenses will issue an Identification Card that looks just like the <BR>
> state issued drivers license except for the verbiage about being qualified <BR>
> to operate motor vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
Except that you'd be *amazed* at the number of businesses and agencies<BR>
that have "drivers license" rather than "drivers license or DMV ID<BR>
card" written into policies on ID. <BR>
<BR>
A friend had to *sue* a bank over that. They *insisted* that if he<BR>
didn't have a driver's license, they wouldn't let him open an account.<BR>
Since he has a medical condition that makes it *impossible* to get a<BR>
drivers license, the bank lost.<BR>
<BR>
What's *really* funny is that a mutual friend was working at the bank<BR>
and saw the memo they circulated. And even after that, he went into the<BR>
bank *with a copy of the court ruling* and they tried to give him the<BR>
run around. <BR>
<BR>
The bank was one of the ones taken over by the feds after the S&L mess.<BR>
The federally appointed administrator found out and gave a *lot* of<BR>
high ranking staff a short sharp lecture on what would happen to them<BR>
if they tried that sort of nonsense again.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure the ObTrav is obvious...<BR>
<BR>
> PO: "Yes, but in order to enter the aircar, you need a license."<BR>
><BR>
> Traveller, looking at the form with the attached equipment for blood & hair <BR>
> samples, along with a spot for 3D photographs (head & full body), finger <BR>
> prints and retinal scans:  "That's ok, I'll walk."<BR>
><BR>
> PO, giving nod #23, which calls over two large lads wearing RVO uniforms: <BR>
> "You really need the license to get about..."<BR>
<BR>
And this is where yet another shipper puts that world on its "you can't<BR>
pay me enough to go there" list.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 21:53:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Alan Dean Foster. Name of the story was _Why Johnny can't speed_. The <BR>
> "moral"/<BR>
> punchline  of the story was: 'Be safe, drive offensively.'<BR>
><BR>
> I've always assumed that this story was the inspiration for Car Wars (This<BR>
> should not be taken as an accusation that Steve Jackson ripped off Alan<BR>
> Dean Foster in any way).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, as some of the older Car Wars stuff states, there were<BR>
*several* stories on that theme, all published around the same time.<BR>
Somewhere they *listed* 3 or 4 of them in some Car Wars stuff. One of<BR>
them was by Harlan Ellison!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:52:19 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Oppurtunity fire<BR>
<BR>
I'm travelling on business next week to Sydney (Australia)<BR>
<BR>
I'll be there from late (real late) Sunday evening to Friday evening<BR>
<BR>
If there are any TML people in Sydney who'd like to chat Traveller or even<BR>
just complain about the cricket, mail me.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:18:40 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Archival Copying<BR>
<BR>
>Sort of like what we did at one place I worked. We'd buy X copies of a<BR>
>package, which didn't have LAN user limiting built in. We'd install one<BR>
>copy on the LAN and use various tools so that no more than X users<BR>
>could access the executables at the same time.<BR>
><BR>
>There were a few programs that were *so* braindead/LAN unfriendly, that<BR>
>we actually *did* have to install seperate copies in seperate<BR>
>directories. *And* rig things so only one user at a time could access<BR>
>them (which was actually easier than allowing a limited number of<BR>
>users).<BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
Interesting. When I was a lan admin, had no such problem... all our<BR>
liscences were for 10+, and we had 8 machines and 5 employees...<BR>
<BR>
Then again, a local court decision said "No shrink wrap liscence can<BR>
prevent you from installing the software on as many machines as you want<BR>
to, and leaving it there. If they can prove you used it on multiple<BR>
machines simultaneously, then they can sue. Case overturned." A state<BR>
appellate court in alaska. So we didn't worry about tracking anything<BR>
locally... same decision said that unpaid users could not be expected to<BR>
know nor adhere to user liscences for software on lab machines, unless the<BR>
liscence was part of the software, and so the responsibilty was the<BR>
owner's, since access to the lab was charged for. But, in an upaid lab, the<BR>
problem was liscencing for lab use without requiring access to the lab, or<BR>
providing a user-notice on launch, and thus the designer's, for providing<BR>
net-enabled verisions without such a notice. Some software used later had<BR>
such notices....<BR>
<BR>
The lesson? Each state in the US is able to have it's OWN set of screwy<BR>
laws. Heck, each city may (Nome never repealled the 1920-somehting law<BR>
prohibitng indoor pluming as a public health hazard... nor did Barrow<BR>
repeal the law prohibiting bathing with your donkey...). When it comes to<BR>
computers, they are rapidly diverging in many areas. And no one will be<BR>
able to comply with all of them.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: software piracy is probably a major issue. I expect intracate<BR>
dongles, extensive checking of variables on the hardware and software. All<BR>
kinds of schemes. Primarily because each world may have different laws, and<BR>
starships' computers are obviously a standardized medium. Oh, the joys. Not<BR>
to mention the possibilities of stolen backups, missing originals, manual<BR>
reference checks, and the like.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:31:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Archival Copying<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: software piracy is probably a major issue. I expect intracate<BR>
> dongles, extensive checking of variables on the hardware and software. All<BR>
> kinds of schemes. Primarily because each world may have different laws, and<BR>
> starships' computers are obviously a standardized medium. Oh, the joys. Not<BR>
> to mention the possibilities of stolen backups, missing originals, manual<BR>
> reference checks, and the like.<BR>
<BR>
<shudder> I just had a nasty vision as I read that.  A hostile ship is on an<BR>
intercept vector and almost in range.  The crew of the ship about to get<BR>
blasted is hurridly trying to find the CD-ROM to put in the drive, and the<BR>
users manual to answer the page/sentence/word question the software will<BR>
answer once they find the CD!<BR>
<BR>
BOOM!  The crew failed and they've just been hit......<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:45:53 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Army (& Navy) Stuff<BR>
<BR>
Damage169@cs.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Been there (USS Carl Vinson) while repairing a lot of stuff, always went to<BR>
> the McDonald's.<BR>
<BR>
Me too... Or if it was a typical day in port the bar.<BR>
<BR>
> Been there (SSN_21 Seawolf) to fix some turbines. Had some great sub<BR>
> sandwiches (NOT Punning).<BR>
<BR>
Real hot chocolate....<BR>
<BR>
>  > The 2nd best was on a repair ship.<BR>
><BR>
> Assigned there (AD-42 Acadia) for three years, always had to shoo the<BR>
> destroyer and frigate crew back onto their ships just to find a place to sit<BR>
> in the mess. Never had any trouble with the sub crews.<BR>
><BR>
>  > The worst was at NTC san deigo.<BR>
><BR>
> Been there, hated it.<BR>
<BR>
It's closed now..... Mess hall is a super fund site.<BR>
<BR>
> OB Trav: I figure the XBoat Tenders would have some of the best cooks, for<BR>
> the same reason subs have the best sooks now, as a psychological cushion/for<BR>
> morale. After the XBoat pilot gets off his boat after eating prepaks for a<BR>
> week, he's going to want some decent food. To get him back into his little<BR>
> can, the food's going to have to be worth it.<BR>
> Same with the SDBs, especially if they're expected to go guerilla if an<BR>
> invader ever takes the system.<BR>
<BR>
 Close Escorts would probably be up there too.....<BR>
<BR>
Humm... Escort only Fleet wide chile cook off.<BR>
<BR>
Now that is an Idea.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:52:12 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
><BR>
> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh water.<BR>
<BR>
What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to for injection.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:21:06 -0600<BR>
From: John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com><BR>
Subject: Higher Education in the Military<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
Do serving imperial military officers get to go back to university for doctorates and<BR>
the like ? - I know T4 CharGen had this facility. In Oz, some Staff College graduates<BR>
get a courtesy Masters on Administration (Military), so I guess maybe that's where<BR>
that could come in.<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Just a note from my military experience:<BR>
I was in the army (US-Infantry) and we had an education center (in Korea and in the<BR>
US, I was posted CONUS and OCONUS) where you could take college classes.  These were<BR>
REAL classes, sponsored by a real world university.  You could also take tests to get<BR>
credit for basic classes (i.e. Math, English, etc.) as well as other various services<BR>
(career counseling, etc.).  I have heard, from Navy friends, that similar services<BR>
exist on-ship.  I would expect, from an advanced interstellar society, that<BR>
(space)shipboard education services would be present.<BR>
<BR>
side-note: it is very hard to take advantage of such services when you are in an<BR>
"elite" unit (82nd ABN, in my case)... your NCOs get very aggravated when you<BR>
complain that your military training interferes with your education.  For OT<BR>
Traveller, the Navy, and especially Scouts,  would be the best bet for using this, as<BR>
they have a lot of down-time.  Marines/Army might have a harder time taking<BR>
advantage, as they will spend more time in a simulated combat environment.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I have violated TML<BR>
etiquette in any way.  Thanks<BR>
<BR>
littlejohn...  litljohn71@stlnet.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:30:25 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Airborne Sheep<BR>
<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Airborne Sheep (was airforce motto)<BR>
...<BR>
>If you drop a sheep off a building, and it hits the ground with a splat, all <BR>
>you have proven is that that particular sheep, on that occasion, either did <BR>
>not fly or _chose not to_. Frankly, I think they can fly and are all sworn to <BR>
>keep it a secret. <BR>
<BR>
  Sort of like the "clams got legs" issue?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:00:26 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
<BR>
Were people trying to bring dead lobsters to life by boiling them?<BR>
Silly Kiwis.<BR>
<BR>
> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh water.<BR>
<BR>
I don't eat bottom feeders but I used to be a cook and several chef's<BR>
I've worked with have recommended soaking the lobsters in cheap<BR>
wine to dull their senses and then simmer them, slowly increasing<BR>
the heat.  If I were a lobster that is how I'd like to go, as long as it<BR>
was Guinness and not wine.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:15:33 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Archival Copying<BR>
<BR>
"William F. Hostman" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The lesson? Each state in the US is able to have it's OWN set of screwy<BR>
> laws. Heck, each city may (Nome never repealled the 1920-somehting law<BR>
> prohibitng indoor pluming as a public health hazard... nor did Barrow<BR>
> repeal the law prohibiting bathing with your donkey...). When it comes to<BR>
> computers, they are rapidly diverging in many areas. And no one will be<BR>
> able to comply with all of them.<BR>
<BR>
Very few laws actually ever get repealed. In the cast majority of situations,<BR>
a court will have made the law ineffective by either explicitly overturning it<BR>
or implicity by making a ruling which makes the law in question moot,<BR>
irrelevant, unconstitutional, etc.  That doesn't mean a legistlature has to<BR>
go out and republish all the law books removing/editting to be in accord<BR>
with the latest judicial rulings.  In fact, I don't think you'd want the<BR>
legistlature<BR>
to do that because they'll try to attach riders and change other things, etc.<BR>
That is why you can find these archaic, irrlevant, and stupid laws on the<BR>
books in many places. No one can be bothered to remove them,<BR>
regardless that its been overturned.<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: software piracy is probably a major issue. I expect intracate<BR>
> dongles, extensive checking of variables on the hardware and software. All<BR>
> kinds of schemes. Primarily because each world may have different laws, and<BR>
> starships' computers are obviously a standardized medium. Oh, the joys. Not<BR>
> to mention the possibilities of stolen backups, missing originals, manual<BR>
> reference checks, and the like.<BR>
<BR>
I never really thought about that myself.  Perhaps because of a handwave<BR>
I've made concerning computer programming.  Some of my players like the<BR>
idea of making computer programs and selling them to make cash rapidly<BR>
(in terms of real world time).  Fine, I say.  But each program has to be<BR>
written for each separate ship because of the unique history of each<BR>
starship, its subsystems, history of software and hardware upgrades,<BR>
etc.  The result is that there isn't a good reason to pirate the pricy<BR>
starship software because it would be useless on any other ship.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:31:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economies (was robotics)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> >> Simple. *His* culture (and many others) has a market economy. Earth<BR>
>> >> doesn't.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > How do you explain Jake Sisco's dad's restaurant?  Mr. Sisco<BR>
>> > charges for meals.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Oh? Where is that established?<BR>
><BR>
> In one episode a couple is seen leaving and he accepts<BR>
> something which he puts in what looks like a register.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, that kills that. Well, actually, there's still room to argue, but<BR>
the alternative possibilities all require the writers of the show to be<BR>
*far* more intelligent and insightful than is plausible.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, it could be a one episode oversight...<BR>
<BR>
>> Are you talking about "Miri?" or "And the Children Shall Lead"? "Miri"<BR>
>> is a good episode. the *other* one is almost universally agreed to be<BR>
>> one of the worst, if not *the* worst episodes they ever made!<BR>
><BR>
> The one I'm talking about was where the adults died when<BR>
> they gave the planet a world-wide antiagathic treatment.  The<BR>
> change caused them to all go mad.  When the children<BR>
> reached adulthood they turned into "grups" and went mad.<BR>
<BR>
That's "Miri" (she was the girl who was about to become a "grup" and<BR>
helped McCoy in the lab he set up).<BR>
<BR>
> I would have to agree with the general assessment.  Loved<BR>
> "Miri."  Hated "And the Children Shall Lead."  Assuming I<BR>
> described "Miri" in the preceding paragraph and that "And<BR>
> the Children Shall Lead" was the one with the "angel" that the<BR>
> children "summoned" with a hokey song and dance number.<BR>
<BR>
The "angel" is noted attorney (and *bad* actor) Melvin Belli.<BR>
<BR>
I hate that episode more than most. And with reason. I wasn't able to<BR>
see most of the third season episodes the first time around. And by 75,<BR>
I'd determined that there was only *one* episode I hadn't seen yet.<BR>
Finally I checked and found it was going to be shown on the local<BR>
station that was showing Star Trek every afternoon.<BR>
<BR>
Guess which episode I'd been anticipating so eagerly? Yep. Got it in<BR>
one. *That* atrocity.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:40:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The fun part of the road test is the amount of leeway the tester has.<BR>
> If he wants to see you merge onto a highway today, he'll direct you<BR>
> onto a highway. A local tester I luckily avoided had a "fail all young men<BR>
> on their first test, no exceptions" policy. My brother drove to a test site<BR>
> (me riding beside him as licensed driver, him with his learner's permit),<BR>
> his brakes squeaked as he stopped...the tester got into the car, glared<BR>
> at him, and informed my brother first thing that he was going to fail the<BR>
> road test, because the tester didn't like the sound of those brakes.<BR>
<BR>
At that point I'd be tempted to ask to see his supervisor, and if<BR>
nothing else get a refund. I would *not* waste my time going thru the<BR>
rest of the test. Not after being told it was an automatic fail.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:42:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Surplus Economics (OT)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>If they *couldn't*, then Voyager (for one) would constantly have to be<BR>
>>finding replacement elements for the rarer elements used in things like<BR>
>>shuttlecraft.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Instead, they seem to only need hydrogen, dilithium, and maybe an<BR>
>>occasional anti-matter recharge.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, the Voyager crew is always interested in trade, and apparently<BR>
> not just for information - that implies resource scarcities. They've also <BR>
> expressed interest that may have been more than just scientific in the <BR>
> mineral makeup of some worlds they've visited, they may have made some <BR>
> "mining stops".<BR>
<BR>
But the impression I get is that most of that is because the<BR>
replicators draw a lot of power, and they are rationing it. They may<BR>
also need frequent maintemnance, so they cut down on *that* also by<BR>
rationing them, and not using them as heavily.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, they need to prepare and *cook* food, and it may be a better use<BR>
of their resources to "manually" fabricate some items used in repairs,<BR>
rather than replicate them. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 01:01:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: zlien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On Behalf Of Terry Carlino<BR>
><BR>
>> >The latter was due to many cases of legal transferal of ownership, but<BR>
>> >re-possession of the vehicle by a lending organization, leaving the<BR>
>> >purchasers out of pocket with no car, and usually little chance of<BR>
>> >recovering it from the seller.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> I gotta say that this is unbelievable. Not that I don't believe you. It's<BR>
>> just that in the U.S. the papers on a car, the so called "pink slip" are<BR>
>> held by the holder of the lien.<BR>
><BR>
> This may be how it's done in the US, it's not how it's done in New Zealand.<BR>
> (At least, not most of the time, I suspect it's possible it may have<BR>
> happened on  occasion ). It may be due to the different attitude toward<BR>
> banks and lending here.<BR>
><BR>
> I doubt anyone would trust a bank or another lender enough to let them hold<BR>
> the ownership papers over here, that would mean the bank was taking no risk,<BR>
> which is what you're supposed to be paying the interest for.<BR>
<BR>
Huh? You are paying interest to compensate the bank for using their<BR>
money. *Risk* has very little to do with it. You pay them what they<BR>
could make by doing something else with the money for that period<BR>
*plus* extra for the extra bookkeeping they have to do. <BR>
<BR>
If the loan is at all risky, they just won't make it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 00:59:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> <Scene of curly-haired poppet in Impie Marine Combat<BR>
>> Armor dancing>..."On the gooood ship, Kinuinir, ..."<BR>
><BR>
> Ditzie Spofulum, the Shirley Temple of the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
You'd better *pray* that either no Shirley Temple films survive to<BR>
Ditzie's time, or that she's weird enough to *like* the little brat...<BR>
Otherwise you are dead meat.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:52:56 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS copyright<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 2:05:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  I suspect that states cannot legally refuse<BR>
>  to recognize a driver's license from another state, however.<BR>
<BR>
For driving no. For other things yes (such as purchasing alcohol or <BR>
cigerettes).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:08:14 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Driver Testing in Oz<BR>
<BR>
There are some reasonable testers.<BR>
<BR>
When one of my classmates at school was taking his test,<BR>
someone pulled out in front of him on a moped.<BR>
<BR>
Despite braking, he hit the moped.<BR>
<BR>
After the various people with blue flashing lights had dealt<BR>
with the accident and the moped rider had been taken away,<BR>
the tester decided that the incident was unavoidable and<BR>
caused by the other party, so counted the incident as<BR>
a successful demonstration of an emergency stop.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:26:40 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 11:52 PM -0800 2/15/2000, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> >Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
>> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
>> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh water.<BR>
><BR>
>What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to for injection.<BR>
<BR>
I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:46:01 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Belter Alert!  RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
David wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 10:33am Eastern Standard Time(US) today, the NEAR<BR>
> spacecraft successfully achieved orbit around the asteroid<BR>
> Eros. The first pics from orbit are located at the following<BR>
> URL.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/near.html<BR>
> <BR>
I'm waiting for the National Enquirer, et. al. to make something<BR>
of the heart shaped crater...<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:03:41 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
> I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction <BR>
> would have been different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
<BR>
Er, you mean they *haven't* outlawed boiling live cats in NZ (and<BR>
therefore its okay to do)?<BR>
<BR>
Reagrds PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:08:34 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]<BR>
<BR>
> That's what the Ministry of Housinge wants you to think.  These<BR>
> are actually cat detector vans.  <BR>
<BR>
Looney detector vans, you mean.<BR>
<BR>
> They will later be used to find<BR>
> unlicensed Aslan in the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
<BR>
You mean big piles of kitty litter don't attract them?<BR>
<BR>
Really, how difficult would it be to spoof the detector vans?  A quick trip<BR>
to Radio Shack, a few friends, and some time might be fun...<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:43:56 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
"Moody, Danny M." wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]<BR>
> <BR>
> > That's what the Ministry of Housinge wants you to think.  These<BR>
> > are actually cat detector vans.<BR>
> <BR>
> Looney detector vans, you mean.<BR>
<BR>
I thought they were bread pudding detector vans....<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:53:02 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Economics IMTU (Was: robot economics) long<BR>
<BR>
Jason T. Barnabas writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I enjoy watching the PCs going from planet to planet looking<BR>
>for financing and it can be a good adventure hook.  I have<BR>
>used bank execs (BE) as patrons.  BE approaches PC and<BR>
>says, "I understand you are looking for financing for your new<BR>
>starship.  If you will undertake a mission, I can guarentee to<BR>
>get you a loan below the preferred rate by X.<BR>
<BR>
	Very cool.  It might even make the added complexity worth<BR>
	while  :)<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Maintenance costs are higher IMTU than they are in the<BR>
>OTU.  They start off at 1%, just like in the OTU, but after a<BR>
>while they start to go up.  They are AA/TL%  where AA is the<BR>
>active age of the unit.  AA is not necessarily the same as the<BR>
>age of the unit, after all, a unit that only works during loading<BR>
>and unloading of cargo will not receive the wear and tear that<BR>
>one that is constantly active does.<BR>
>Depending upon the cost analysis done by the PCs they may<BR>
>decide to replace the body entirely and start over at 1%<BR>
>whenever they want to perhaps at a higher TL, yet keep the<BR>
>same personality they have had all along.<BR>
<BR>
	This does effectively put a maximum lifespan on your robots,<BR>
	as after 1,000 years a TL 10 robot must be effectively<BR>
	replaced yearly.  I tend to simplify (if that wasn't already<BR>
	obvious) and keep maintainance for robots (and starships)<BR>
	constant, at least until they pass a critical age (80 years<BR>
	for starships, 10 years for robots).<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>>This same technology can be used to transfer a personality=20<BR>
>>>from an organic body to a robotic one* (rarely done) or from=20<BR>
>>>an old body to a clone**.<BR>
>>Do you mean "transfered", or do you mean "replicated?"<BR>
>>Copying a personality and "puting" it in a robot or<BR>
>>clone (this probably requires some serious hand-waving)<BR>
>>does not destroy the original (unless there is another<BR>
>>handwave), therefore all you have done is created a<BR>
>>double of yourself who will live while you die.<BR>
>I guess that I mean replicated.  The personality is copied<BR>
>into the device and then copied into the "new" body.<BR>
<BR>
	I wonder how many people would bother with this procedure.<BR>
	I suppose that there would be some, and it would likely be<BR>
	marketed as "immortality."<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear here.  I meant that<BR>
>>one might limit the robots on a ship to one for every<BR>
>>human-occupied stateroom, or stand 8 in a stateroom that<BR>
>>is not occupied by any humans (or other sophonts).  This<BR>
>>would allow room for the robots to come and go, for<BR>
>>techs to get in and do maintainance, etc.<BR>
>Okay, again, I don't see any reason they would need more<BR>
>than 4x their volume for maintenance.  If you had human<BR>
>sized/shaped robots you could use a bay no larger than a<BR>
>sanitary facility (c. 1/4 Td) to store/maintain a dozen or more.<BR>
>A stateroom (at 4 Td) should provide sufficient space to store<BR>
>and maintain over 200 such robots.<BR>
<BR>
	Ah, I see where I went wrong.  Once again, my thinking here<BR>
	is to simplify.  Although I haven't thought too much about<BR>
	it, I was suggesting some sort of limit to the number of<BR>
	robots that could be practically carried on an opperating<BR>
	starship.  Off the top of my head, I threw out 1 per<BR>
	stateroom: the robot would tend to be found in the lounge,<BR>
	bridge, etc., but more than 10 on a type A Freetrader would<BR>
	tend to make the crew and passengers unhappy.  After all,<BR>
	there is no reason that a stateroom cannot be built at 2<BR>
	tons (they actually are for small craft), so why install a<BR>
	4-ton model?  Presumably, less tonnage than 4 tons/stateroom<BR>
	will tend to have negative effects on such things as crew<BR>
	morale and passenger satisfaction.  Arguably, something<BR>
	similar might apply to the number of robots: perhaps 1 or 2<BR>
	per occupied stateroom.<BR>
<BR>
	As for an unoccupied stateroom, IMTU the 4 tons is half<BR>
	halls, lounges, freshers, life support systems, air locks,<BR>
	etc., and half the room itself.  This makes a room 3 x 3 m,<BR>
	with some furnature and storage space.  Sure, one could<BR>
	stuff a lot of man-sized robots in there.  One could also<BR>
	stuff about 100 tons of copper in there, but Traveller tends<BR>
	to restrict cargo to the cargo hold.  Arbitrarily, one could<BR>
	(in the spirit of CT) limit the number of robots that can be<BR>
	stored in a stateroom to 8 (about one per sq m, with room to<BR>
	come and go or get maintainance) or 32 (storage), or any<BR>
	other limit that suits the GM.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1932<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1933</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/16/00 9:36:11 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 16 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1933<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
Filk: The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
Technology Marches On:  Mars On the Internet..Real Time!<BR>
RE: lobster rights<BR>
RE: Starship Software<BR>
Re: a real world example<BR>
re: lobster rights<BR>
RE: loan risk<BR>
RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: Filk: The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
Re: Higher Education in the Military<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Nazis and Solomani (was Re: Instant Zombie Bullets?)<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
RE: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: YNYPTMTW<BR>
Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:31:55 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Since when is it illegal to have a functioning TV set?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 12:41 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Hmm, I wonder if plasma screens and LCD screens are detectable by<BR>
> > Detector Vans?  (Detector Vans hunt out  unlicenced  TVs.)  As  I<BR>
> > understand it they key off  the  radio  signals  emitted  by  the<BR>
> > picture tube.<BR>
><BR>
> Detector vans are a myth designed to trick gullible and guilty<BR>
householders<BR>
> into giving themselves away.<BR>
><BR>
> Frankie.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:20:57 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
<BR>
> Except that you'd be *amazed* at the number of businesses and agencies<BR>
> that have "drivers license" rather than "drivers license or DMV ID<BR>
> card" written into policies on ID.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A local pub where several of my friends work instituted this policy in order<BR>
to fufill the racist tendencies of the owner. You see, the idea is that<BR>
since the local african-american population is of a lower social economic<BR>
status than the majority of the caucasian clientel, less of them drive, and<BR>
therefore less of them have valid driver's licenses. By asking people at the<BR>
door to have a valid driver's license, he figures he can prevent such<BR>
individuals from coming into his establishment.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this has the added "benefit" of keeping the "bums and white<BR>
trash" out too (his words).<BR>
<BR>
Some people are just pigs.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Sometimes I wish I had a PGMP.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:20:20 -0600<BR>
From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Filk: The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
<BR>
Dudes!  We HAVE to write up lyrics for this one!<BR>
Have you SEEN the lyrics to "Lollipop??"  The<BR>
similarity is ... well, scary.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone want to help with this one?  Sounds like<BR>
Ditzie wants to be in the Imperial Navy...<BR>
<BR>
        The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
        as sung by Ditzie Spofalum<BR>
        sort of<BR>
<BR>
        <Scene of curly-haired poppet in Impie Marine <BR>
        Combat Armor dancing><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
        I've thrown away my toys <BR>
        Even my drum and train.      [ Even my fusion PCMP-13?? ]<BR>
        I wanna make some noise <BR>
        With real live aeroplanes.   [ Uh oh... ]<BR>
<BR>
        Some day I'm going to fly. <BR>
        I'll be a pilot too.         [ that's Pilot-2 ]<BR>
        And when I do, how would you <BR>
        Like to be my crew...        [ NOOOOOOO... ]<BR>
<BR>
        On the good ship Kinunir. <BR>
        Its a sweet trip to a candy shop    [ someone fix these lines...<BR>
]<BR>
        Where bon-bons play <BR>
        On the sunny beach of Regina Bay.<BR>
<BR>
        Lemonade stands everywhere.          [ this whole verse<BR>
        Crackerjack bands fill the air.        needs a little 'TLC'... ]<BR>
        And there you are <BR>
        Happy landing on a chocolate bar.<BR>
<BR>
        See the sugar bowl do the tootsie roll   [ ermmm, this one too ]<BR>
        With the big bad devils food cake.       [ insert something<BR>
about<BR>
        If you eat too much ooh ooh                evil TL-15 A.I. ...]<BR>
        You'll awake with a tummy ache.<BR>
<BR>
        On the good ship Kinunir <BR>
        Its a night trip into bed you hop <BR>
        And dream away <BR>
        On the good ship Kinunir.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:58:11 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Technology Marches On:  Mars On the Internet..Real Time!<BR>
<BR>
Here's another far tech idea being implemented by NASA which<BR>
can easily be used for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
According to an article posted on the "Beyond 2000" site:<BR>
<BR>
- -- quote --<BR>
A constellation of micro-satellites around Mars is being<BR>
installed by 2009, giving the planet its own internet.<BR>
The Mars Network will give future Martian probes a better<BR>
idea of where they are and a faster way of getting<BR>
information back to Earth. It is the first step in giving<BR>
NASA a virtual presence elsewhere in the solar system<BR>
and it may even provide the likes of you and me with<BR>
high-bandwidth access to the Red Planet.<BR>
<BR>
..The Microsat high-capacity, long-haul data link to Earth<BR>
will operate on a very high frequency radio system. NASA<BR>
should be able to relay data at 11,000 bits per second.<BR>
That's 30 times faster than Pathfinder's rate and is<BR>
enough to send back a full-resolution, 360-degree<BR>
panorama of the Red Planet every day..<BR>
- -- end quote --<BR>
<BR>
Now 11k bits per second is horrible compared to the 56k<BR>
modems available now. So how is NASA going to improve<BR>
this to Internet speeds? Heheh, read the full story at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.beyond2000.com/news/story_454.html<BR>
<BR>
This is very slick!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: The story also details on how to remotely install<BR>
an orbital network from a few million miles/kms. away.<BR>
Very useful for Scout survey teams and pre-assault military<BR>
units.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:17:33 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: lobster rights<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV writes:<BR>
>At 11:52 PM -0800 2/15/2000, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
>>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>>>>Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters<BR>
>>>>alive.  Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
>>> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that<BR>
>>>instead of boiling them to death you should freeze them or<BR>
>>>drown them in fresh water.<BR>
>>What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to<BR>
>>for injection.<BR>
>I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would<BR>
>have been different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
<BR>
	I cannot tell you what lobsters "feel," but as "cold-blooded"<BR>
	organisms, they are not so bothered by changes in temperature<BR>
	as we "homeotherms" are.  For example, cooling down a lobster<BR>
	will not make it shiver, rather it will mostly just slow<BR>
	down.  As to whether boiling water will cause "pain" to a<BR>
	crustacian, who knows...<BR>
<BR>
	ObTrav: things that bother humans may cause no discomfort to<BR>
	some aliens.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:19:51 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Starship Software<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I never really thought about that myself.  Perhaps because of a handwave<BR>
>I've made concerning computer programming.  Some of my players like the<BR>
>idea of making computer programs and selling them to make cash rapidly<BR>
>(in terms of real world time).  Fine, I say.  But each program has to be<BR>
>written for each separate ship because of the unique history of each<BR>
>starship, its subsystems, history of software and hardware upgrades,<BR>
>etc.  The result is that there isn't a good reason to pirate the pricy<BR>
>starship software because it would be useless on any other ship.<BR>
<BR>
	My own handwave for software is that it includes some<BR>
	hardware as well.  This hardware may be copied as well (with<BR>
	sufficient expertese and equipment), but it makes the piracy<BR>
	of software a little more difficult for the average bored<BR>
	starship crew in jumpspace).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:29:50 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: a real world example<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> In rural America, a large percentage of kids learn how to<BR>
> drive in "large, empty fields" - driving tractors, cars and pickup<BR>
> trucks on farms and ranches. Very useful driving, by the way.<BR>
<BR>
These kinds of vehicles require a much simpler licence available at an<BR>
earlier age.<BR>
<BR>
> A driver's license is not required to drive on private property,<BR>
<BR>
The same is true in Sweden... as long as it's your own private property<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
> and there are many Americans who own farms that are miles across.<BR>
> There are even American who own farms that are much, much larger<BR>
> than this. I don't think there are many people in Europe who<BR>
> have this situation, so I can see how a European would think<BR>
> that being able to drive as long as you weren't on a public road<BR>
> was useless.<BR>
<BR>
The thing is we have mostly forests or farmlands, neither of which make<BR>
good places to drive (trees or angry farmers will hurt you if you do).<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:11:58 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: lobster rights<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>	I cannot tell you what lobsters "feel," but as "cold-blooded"<BR>
>	organisms, they are not so bothered by changes in temperature<BR>
>	as we "homeotherms" are.  For example, cooling down a lobster<BR>
>	will not make it shiver, rather it will mostly just slow<BR>
>	down.  As to whether boiling water will cause "pain" to a<BR>
>	crustacian, who knows...<BR>
<BR>
I have it from a chef that if you put a lobster in room-temperature water,<BR>
then heat the water to boiling from there, the increasing temperature<BR>
will render the lobster unconcious long before the point of death. I don't<BR>
know how she distinguishes between "unconcious" and "paralyzed<BR>
while in extreme pain, screaming silent lobster screams of agony<BR>
to the uncaring universe", so I suppose either could be the true result<BR>
of this treatment.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:24:56 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: loan risk<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>I doubt anyone would trust a bank or another lender enough to<BR>
>>let them hold the ownership papers over here, that would mean<BR>
>>the bank was taking no risk, which is what you're supposed to<BR>
>>be paying the interest for.<BR>
>Huh? You are paying interest to compensate the bank for using their<BR>
>money. *Risk* has very little to do with it. You pay them what they<BR>
>could make by doing something else with the money for that period<BR>
>*plus* extra for the extra bookkeeping they have to do. <BR>
>If the loan is at all risky, they just won't make it.<BR>
<BR>
	That all depends on what you mean by risk :)<BR>
<BR>
	Any loan entails some risk, and some financial institutions<BR>
	(FI) will have higher tolerance for risk than others.  In<BR>
	any event, the interest charged on a loan must provide the<BR>
	FI with the desired profit on average, given the perceived<BR>
	risk associated with the loan.  If 1% of class B loans have<BR>
	to be written off, simply increase the interest rate on all<BR>
	such loans so that the average return is where you want it.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:29:49 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Jory Earl wrote:<BR>
> Since when is it illegal to have a functioning TV set?<BR>
<BR>
Welcome to  the  thread.  The  answer  is:  When  the  government<BR>
decides to  tax  ownership  but  you  don't  pay.  (This  is  the<BR>
situation in the UK.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:45:04 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Someone (I lost the post, sorry) wrote:<BR>
>Shhh.. I was placating Jens.. Trust me, in GF the sunburst is<BR>
>replaced with the stars and stripes, Imperial troops wear steel<BR>
>pots with the chinstraps undone, and the Zhodani are all played<BR>
>by Max Von Sydow, Richard Munch, Siegfried Rauch and Karl<BR>
>Michael Vogler.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, the horror, the horror...<BR>
<BR>
A listing of the Imperials might include Clint Eastwood, Sylvester<BR>
Stallone, Tom Cruise... or am I wrong ?    ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I think I have some inspirationn going... another post for that in a few<BR>
minutes...<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:43:38<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk: The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
<BR>
At 02:20 AM 2/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Anyone want to help with this one?  Sounds like<BR>
>Ditzie wants to be in the Imperial Navy...<BR>
<BR>
OK, the scansion is way off in places, and it doesn't help that I'm<BR>
listening to KFOG while trying to place the melody (oddly, this isn't in my<BR>
collection), but here ya go:<BR>
<BR>
>        On the good ship Kinunir. <BR>
>        Some observers think it mighty queer<BR>
>        That the Navy can say <BR>
>        That four of us can keep the Zhondani at bay.<BR>
><BR>
>        Zhodani ships everywhere.<BR>
>        Laser blasts fill the air.<BR>
>        And what do you get? <BR>
>        You end up stuck in the Shinothy Belt.<BR>
><BR>
>        Try to avoid the contra-terrene<BR>
>        While we fight our own A.I.<BR>
>        If we brush a rock, uh oh!<BR>
>        We'll see if Einstein made a mistake.<BR>
><BR>
>        On the good ship Kinunir <BR>
>        It's a voyage of death and fear<BR>
>        I wish I weren't here<BR>
>        On the good ship Kinunir.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:55:04 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
ALERT! This post has the capability to be seen as personal attacks on<BR>
several people. There are some serious comments buried in it, but I<BR>
think I disguised as ObTrav...  ;-)<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
All the spaceships have names starting with USS.<BR>
<BR>
The Sunburst is replaced by the stars and stripes. (Douglas E. Berry)<BR>
<BR>
Fighter pilots and Marines are the only true heroes of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
No one is ever oppressed on Imperial worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Everyone is oppressed on non-Imperial worlds.<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani are communists.<BR>
<BR>
Corporations are founded by a single person's hard work.<BR>
<BR>
It is every person's constitutional right to land several tons of free<BR>
trader in any starport, even those in the middle of cities.<BR>
<BR>
Mostly everyone speak English. Aliens speak bad accents of English.<BR>
Zhodani speak either Russian or German.<BR>
<BR>
Corporations are generally not evil. If they are, they are corrupted by<BR>
spies from another race of culture.<BR>
<BR>
An independent merchant is considered a hard-working, impressive person,<BR>
not a sneaky bastard who would sell his own parents if given half a<BR>
chance.<BR>
<BR>
Worlds are always happy to be brought into the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium never targets civilians in armed conflicts, although all<BR>
other factions do.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:01:15 EST<BR>
From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/16/00 00:59:36 Pacific Standard Time, Leonard Erickson <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<<  In mail you write:<BR>
 <BR>
 ><BR>
 >> <Scene of curly-haired poppet in Impie Marine Combat<BR>
 >> Armor dancing>..."On the gooood ship, Kinuinir, ..."<BR>
 ><BR>
 > Ditzie Spofulum, the Shirley Temple of the Imperium<BR>
 <BR>
 You'd better *pray* that either no Shirley Temple films survive to<BR>
 Ditzie's time, or that she's weird enough to *like* the little brat...<BR>
 Otherwise you are dead meat.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Eh? Not catching reference re: Ditzie Spofulum. Explain, please?<BR>
<BR>
Simon Jester<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:47:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Higher Education in the Military<BR>
<BR>
At 02:21 AM 2/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Just a note from my military experience:<BR>
>I was in the army (US-Infantry) and we had an education center (in Korea<BR>
and >in the US, I was posted CONUS and OCONUS) where you could take college <BR>
>classes.  These were REAL classes, sponsored by a real world university.  <BR>
<BR>
When were you in? I took some classes under the ACES program (Army<BR>
Continuing Education Service)<BR>
<BR>
>side-note: it is very hard to take advantage of such services when you are <BR>
>in an "elite" unit (82nd ABN, in my case)... your NCOs get very aggravated <BR>
>when you complain that your military training interferes with your <BR>
>education.<BR>
<BR>
Well, you are there to fight...<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I have violated TML<BR>
>etiquette in any way.  Thanks<BR>
<BR>
It's customary to tip the Great Old Ones.. unmarked bills in a suitcase<BR>
will do nicely. Welcome!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:49:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
At 05:17 PM 2/15/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So Jurgen Prochnow is playing a Sword Worlds leader?<BR>
<BR>
Good point. The previously mentioned actors play the Swordies, and the Zhos<BR>
are played by RuPaul and Dennis Rodman.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:56:21<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 07:32 PM 2/16/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
>Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
<BR>
Ha! Here in SF, we've just had a major row over the practice of selling<BR>
live animals in Chinatown for food. You could go down there and buy<BR>
chickens, eels, turtles.. all sorts of tasty critters.<BR>
<BR>
If you've never been to SF's Chinatown, be advised, this isn't a<BR>
neighborhood that has a Chinese feel, this a piece of China transported to<BR>
California. The street signs, window marquees, and menu and McDonalds are<BR>
all in Chinese.<BR>
<BR>
So when the animal rights activists were protesting this, the Board of<BR>
Stupes were all ready to come down on the Chinese community when somebody<BR>
remembered that one of the big attractions at Fisherman's Wharf is buying<BR>
live crab and having it cooked in front of you, right on the sidewalk in<BR>
huge kettles.<BR>
<BR>
Can't threaten the tourist trade, y'know.<BR>
<BR>
So it is now illegal to sell live animals for food in San Francisco, unless<BR>
it is a crab, and then only in a three block area surrounding the wharf.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:58:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 06:26 AM 2/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
>different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
<BR>
Of course it would be different! You don't boil cats! You roast them in a<BR>
red wine sauce!<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani Iron Chef.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:03:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
<BR>
At 09:09 PM 2/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>> Article IV, Section 1: "Full faith and credit shall be given in each<BR>
>>state to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every<BR>
>>other state."<BR>
><BR>
>Routinely ignored on a daily basis...email me directly for an example.<BR>
>That's a TML rathole...<BR>
<BR>
This clause is what terrifies that anti-gay marriage crowd.. all it takes<BR>
is *one* state to legalize gay marriages, and guess what. You'll have 49<BR>
test cases before you can say Constitutional precedent.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:16:14 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> ISTR from friends who visited the USA that the US 'Driving Test' at<BR>
> best consists of driving around a mock road. (Please correct me if<BR>
> wrong).<BR>
<BR>
As others have said, it varies, depoending on the tester and the state.<BR>
When I moved back to Arizona from New York, I'd let my NY license<BR>
expire, so I had to take the road test again.<BR>
<BR>
The tester had me parallel park in the parking lot, which was<BR>
practically done on autopilot (drive in downtown NYC for any length of<BR>
time and you learn to parallel park in a space about 6" longer than your<BR>
car, I swear, and at 20 mph to keep others from stealing the space. ;-)<BR>
then had me drive out into the sttreet. about 30 seconds into this she<BR>
said 'You've done this before, haven't you?' 'Yeah, I've been driving<BR>
about 20 years now...' 'OK, you pass'<BR>
<BR>
Which was _considerably_ different from the one I took (twice) that 20<BR>
years earlier...;-)<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, my license is good until 2017...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:06:31 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Nazis and Solomani (was Re: Instant Zombie Bullets?)<BR>
<BR>
At 22:56 15.02.00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>>> fascist are the Solomani anyway? Do you see the potential for them to<BR>
>take<BR>
>>> human supremacy (or even Solomani supremacy) to the point of xenocide?<BR>
><BR>
>> Did you mean genocide, the complete and utter destruction<BR>
>> of a species?  Or did you actually mean xenocide, the<BR>
>> complete and utter destruction of everything not Solomani?<BR>
><BR>
>Bah, either-or. ;-) I'm just trying to get some discussion on the nature of<BR>
>the Solomani going.<BR>
<BR>
<stupid><BR>
They are Humans, I think.<BR>
</stupid><BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
To be serious: IMTU, the Solomani are _dominated_ by a group of ambitious<BR>
racists, who have their support primarily within the solomani Movement, but<BR>
the regular populace is just a little bit indeifferent about the equaliyty<BR>
of most other sophonts. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:22:45 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> It is every person's constitutional right to land several tons of free<BR>
> trader in any starport, even those in the middle of cities.<BR>
<BR>
You forgot to put in 'heavily armed' between the 'of' and 'free' ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:30:53 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> <BR>
> >So Jurgen Prochnow is playing a Sword Worlds leader?<BR>
> <BR>
> Good point. The previously mentioned actors play the <BR>
> Swordies, and the Zhos<BR>
> are played by RuPaul and Dennis Rodman.<BR>
<BR>
Ab-so-loot-ly untrue.  The Zhos *have* to be played by Omar Shariff - he<BR>
looks *great* in a turban!<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:14:19<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: YNYPTMTW<BR>
<BR>
At 11:49 PM 2/15/2000 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
>I hate to bring up a dead thread but this just happened to me.<BR>
><BR>
>You know you play too much Traveller when:<BR>
><BR>
>You're in sci.military.moderated, see "Re: Small Question on Cannon"<BR>
>in the subject line and think it's a misspelling.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Every Christmas gift you got this year was in black and red.<BR>
<BR>
You can't spell "traveler" without wincing.<BR>
<BR>
You've had a birthday cake done up as a CT book.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:36:28 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Vilani Culture Online...<BR>
> >Glenn Goffin wrote:><BR>
> >>> >From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net>><BR>
> >>> >I bet you didn't know the Vilani are already among us...<BR>
> >>> >http://folklora.lv/kopas/vilonisi/en.shtml><BR>
> >>That's scary!  Are they a covert op from the Ziru Sirka,<BR>
> >>stationed here to watch what appears to be a hitherto<BR>
> >>undiscovered minor human race, or are they refuseniks who have<BR>
> >>rejected the Ziru Sirka and are living the Vilani way of life<BR>
> >>here on Terra?  Have they realized that this is the ancestral<BR>
> >>homeworld?  What have they done with their unemployed<BR>
> >>shugilis?<BR>
> >BAM!<BR>
> <BR>
> Stalin's solution to the problem of unemployed specialists who<BR>
> have become redundant and therefore parasitic does seem<BR>
> especially likely to have been adopted by people settling in a<BR>
> Baltic region recently dominated by the USSR.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I _was_ thinking that they're shipped here to become celebrity<BR>
chefs, but...<BR>
<BR>
Guess you don't see Emeril's show on cable then...;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1933<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 16 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1934<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
TL9 ship designs<BR>
Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
Airborne Sheep (was airforce motto)<BR>
Lobster Pain (way OT)<BR>
Higher Education<BR>
Re: Lobster Pain (way OT)<BR>
re:  Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights [CATS OT]<BR>
Re: NYC Driving TML #1933<BR>
Re: NYC Driving TML #1933<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Driver Testing in Oz<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Filk The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
REPOST: Link to Ditzie<BR>
RE: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:50:11 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: TL9 ship designs<BR>
<BR>
In preparation for my upcoming campaign, I have finished designing two<BR>
low-tech spaceships and put them on my webpage.<BR>
<BR>
http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
The ships themselves are located in:<BR>
<BR>
http://m227.ryd.student.liu.se/traveller/ships/<BR>
<BR>
Why don't you have a look?<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:49:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
<BR>
>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
><BR>
>> They don't so much fly as plummet, actually. <BR>
>> That makes them very well suited to use as "livefall" <BR>
>>ordnance.  Their terrified bleating on the way down would <BR>
>>strike terror into the hearts of ground troops, and of course <BR>
>>they will make a horrible biohazard mess upon or within a few <BR>
>>days after impact. <BR>
><BR>
>You've played the "Worms" computer game then, have you?<BR>
<BR>
No, never heard of it.  What's it like?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:53:35 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Airborne Sheep (was airforce motto)<BR>
<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Airborne Sheep (was airforce motto)<BR>
>> Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>> They don't so much fly as plummet, actually.<BR>
>If you drop a sheep off a building, and it hits the ground with<BR>
<BR>
>a splat, all you have proven is that that particular sheep, on <BR>
>that occasion, either did not fly or _chose not to_. Frankly, I<BR>
<BR>
>think they can fly and are all sworn to keep it a secret. <BR>
<BR>
That's a good working hypothesis.  Only the Zhodani will be able<BR>
to know for sure, and they certainly won't be telling.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:51:54 -0400<BR>
From: Les_Howie@keane.com<BR>
Subject: Lobster Pain (way OT)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>As to whether boiling water will cause "pain" to a<BR>
>crustacian, who knows...<BR>
<BR>
All I know is that when Dad used to cook them (brick on the lid of the pot) they<BR>
became FAR more interested in getting out as the temperatire went up.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:16:53 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Higher Education<BR>
<BR>
>Ob Trav (I admit this is lip service); Do serving imperial military officers<BR>
>get to go back to university for doctorates and the like ? - I know T4<BR>
>CharGen had this facility. In Oz, some Staff College graduates get a<BR>
>courtesy Masters on Administration (Military), so I guess maybe that's where<BR>
>that could come in.<BR>
<BR>
An old high school classmate, who graduated from West Point with a degree <BR>
in English, got himself a transfer to the Naval graduate school for MBA <BR>
work.  This was part of him wrangling a transfer to logistics.  He was <BR>
previously in artillery and didn't see much of a career path there.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."<BR>
                 http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:19:50 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Pain (way OT)<BR>
<BR>
The proper method is to place them head first into boiling water.  Quick<BR>
death, no brick required.  I'll tell you what, if you bring them over I'll<BR>
show you just how its done :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -Maine Yankee<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <Les_Howie@keane.com><BR>
> >As to whether boiling water will cause "pain" to a<BR>
> >crustacian, who knows...<BR>
><BR>
> All I know is that when Dad used to cook them (brick on the lid of the<BR>
pot) they<BR>
> became FAR more interested in getting out as the temperatire went up.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:06:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
<BR>
>From: John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com><BR>
<BR>
>BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I <BR>
>have violated TML etiquette in any way.  <BR>
<BR>
Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself an<BR>
enormous breach of TML etiquette.  To atone, please write a<BR>
medium length essay on why piracy cannot exist in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:20:07 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 11:52 PM -0800 2/15/2000, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
>>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
>>> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh water.<BR>
>><BR>
>>What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to for<BR>
injection.<BR>
><BR>
>I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Possibly because lobsters AREN'T cats.  Duh.  Cats are carnivores, don't<BR>
taste good, and unlike dogs, are not considered an acceptable food source in<BR>
times other than famine by even those cultures that are notorious for their<BR>
openmindedness about food.  There wouldn't need to be a law against boiling<BR>
them alive because there is no good reason to do it.<BR>
<BR>
Most crustaceans and shellfish taste best if boiled as soon as possible<BR>
after they are killed and the best way to do this is to drop them into<BR>
boiling water.  If you are truly concerned about it get them drunk on rice<BR>
wine first.  (yum!)<BR>
<BR>
This isn't true of warm blooded animals, even those that we do normally eat.<BR>
<BR>
The nervous system of a crustacean is also not as similar to our own as that<BR>
of a warm blooded animal.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's<BR>
a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect and love your darkest side,<BR>
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical.  It's all about giving<BR>
yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:38:22 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry posted.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 05:17 PM 2/15/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >So Jurgen Prochnow is playing a Sword Worlds leader?<BR>
> <BR>
> Good point. The previously mentioned actors play the <BR>
> Swordies, and the Zhos<BR>
> are played by RuPaul and Dennis Rodman.<BR>
<BR>
No, no, no, Doug. Come on!<BR>
<BR>
With his hair, Dennis Rodman is *obviously* a defurred<BR>
Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
P.S.<BR>
Great "Kinunir" filk! How do you keep doing that?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:45:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Possibly because lobsters AREN'T cats.  Duh.  Cats are carnivores, don't<BR>
> taste good, and unlike dogs, are not considered an acceptable food source<BR>
> in times other than famine by even those cultures that are notorious for<BR>
> their openmindedness about food.  There wouldn't need to be a law against<BR>
> boiling them alive because there is no good reason to do it.<BR>
<BR>
Sure there is.  There's magical reasons to boil a black cat alive (relates<BR>
to the creation of invisibility items, as I recall). ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:08:56 EST<BR>
From: WriteFool@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights [CATS OT]<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/16/00 12:29:15 PM Central Standard Time, <BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Cats are carnivores, don't  taste good, and unlike dogs, are not <BR>
considered an acceptable food source in  times other than famine by even <BR>
those cultures that are notorious for their  openmindedness about food.  <BR>
There wouldn't need to be a law against boiling  them alive because there is <BR>
no good reason to do it. >><BR>
<BR>
No good reason?  As a cat owner I can think of many.....<BR>
<BR>
Michael Breen<BR>
Wondering about pets in the Third Imperium<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:22:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re: NYC Driving TML #1933<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
The tester had me parallel park in the parking lot, which was <BR>
practically done on autopilot (drive in downtown NYC for any length of <BR>
time and you learn to parallel park in a space about 6" longer than your <BR>
car, I swear, and at 20 mph to keep others from stealing the space. ;-) <BR>
then had me drive out into the sttreet. about 30 seconds into this she <BR>
said 'You've done this before, haven't you?' 'Yeah, I've been driving <BR>
about 20 years now...' 'OK, you pass'<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Bruce, you actually drove around in the Big Apple?  Whew!  you're<BR>
a better man than I Gunga Din!<BR>
<BR>
I'm from upstate....Rain-, I mean Rochester, and the test is about the<BR>
same, and I had similar results...The NYS testers seem to always<BR>
flunk kids on their first try.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,<BR>
pi+, ta+, <BR>
		as+, va+, dr+, _sa_, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, _hu_ <BR>
			(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:20:33 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: NYC Driving TML #1933<BR>
<BR>
Eric T. Holmes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bruce, you actually drove around in the Big Apple?  Whew!  you're<BR>
> a better man than I Gunga Din!<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, actually, it was soon after I'd lived in Boston for three months,<BR>
riding a motorcycle there, so NYC seemed like a smooth straight prairie<BR>
road after that.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:16:21 -0700<BR>
From: scharlto@ifsna.com<BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Acctually, I have a long-term NPC who is a Zhodani assassain.<BR>
He looks remarkably like Omar Sharif.<BR>
<BR>
The Federation of Arden is a mixed-culture society, which looks<BR>
WAY too much like North Africa for my personal comfort.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the Imperial Greens Party are Darrian transplants, and<BR>
are much-disliked by many Imperial Megacorporations.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium NEVER oppresses anyone.  At least as far as YOU<BR>
know, citizen.<BR>
<BR>
Any race resembling RuPaul or Dennis Rodman is subject to an<BR>
Imperial Edict requiring their immediate elimination.<BR>
<BR>
Pepsi is the OFFICIAL soft drink of the Imperial Household.<BR>
Coke is used only by Solomani and Hivers, and the Hivers only<BR>
use it as an engine-block cleaner.<BR>
<BR>
Volvo air-rafts are generally the sturdiest in-town transport,<BR>
but tend to have ugly, blocky lines.  Very popular with Imperial<BR>
yuppies, though some perefer the larger Explorer or Blazer class<BR>
Sport-Utility Airrafts.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> So Jurgen Prochnow is playing a Sword Worlds leader?<BR>
><BR>
> Good point. The previously mentioned actors play the Swordies,<BR>
and the Zhos<BR>
> are played by RuPaul and Dennis Rodman.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Steven Charlton<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:34:16 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com><BR>
><BR>
> >BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I<BR>
> >have violated TML etiquette in any way.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself an<BR>
> enormous breach of TML etiquette.  To atone, please write a<BR>
> medium length essay on why piracy cannot exist in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, the last essay was one on that, Glenn. The new we decided<BR>
was going to be on the comparative tech levels of the Rule of Man<BR>
era states.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:46:43 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Driver Testing in Oz<BR>
<BR>
At 1:40 -0500 16/2/00, "Hughes, Michael" <BR>
<Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> wrote:<BR>
>I knew of this guy in my home town who was on his first attempt for his<BR>
>Provisional license. As he drive out of the RTA exit (Roads and Traffic<BR>
>Authority) he saw some mates across the road. Being young and dumb he<BR>
>started honking enthusiastically and waving his arms about to say 'look at<BR>
>me, goin' for my licence'. Instructor made him pull right back into the RTA<BR>
>entrance and failed him for unnecessary use of the horn. Total time into<BR>
>test - 12 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
LoL!<BR>
<BR>
In the UK RTA is the acronym for "Road Traffic Accident".<BR>
<BR>
Dom ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:57:46 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:35 -0500 16/2/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>OTOH, my license is good until 2017...<BR>
<BR>
2037 in my case....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:27:46 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Filk The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 02:20:20 -0600<BR>
>From: Robert James Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
>Subject: Filk: The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
><BR>
>Dudes!  We HAVE to write up lyrics for this one!<BR>
>Have you SEEN the lyrics to "Lollipop??"  The<BR>
>similarity is ... well, scary.<BR>
><BR>
>Anyone want to help with this one?  Sounds like<BR>
>Ditzie wants to be in the Imperial Navy...<BR>
<BR>
I'll give it a shot. My emendations will be marked with curly braces.<BR>
><BR>
>        The Good Ship Kinunir<BR>
>        as sung by Ditzie Spofalum<BR>
>        sort of<BR>
><BR>
>        <Scene of curly-haired poppet in Impie Marine<BR>
>        Combat Armor dancing><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>        I've thrown away my toys<BR>
>        Even my drum and train.      [ Even my fusion PCMP-13?? ]<BR>
>        I wanna make some noise<BR>
>        With real live aeroplanes.   [ Uh oh... ]<BR>
><BR>
>        Some day I'm going to fly.<BR>
>        I'll be a pilot too.         [ that's Pilot-2 ]<BR>
>        And when I do, how would you<BR>
>        Like to be my crew...        [ NOOOOOOO... ]<BR>
><BR>
>        On the good ship Kinunir.<BR>
       {  There's a warrant in the ships locker<BR>
           Finding it'll make your day<BR>
           'Cause evryone will do what you say }<BR>
<BR>
       {  Impie beurocrats stand and stare<BR>
          While the nobles sit noses in the air<BR>
          As you play all day<BR>
          ordering about the cruiser Azhanti }<BR>
<BR>
       {  It's a great way of having fun<BR>
          keeping fleet ships on the run<BR>
          From Regina to Efate<BR>
          Kill all the admirals if any are late }<BR>
><BR>
>        On the good ship Kinunir<BR>
       {  An admiral arrives with new orders<BR>
          To take you away }<BR>
>        On the good ship Kinunir.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well it still needs some work. Perhaps a lot of work....<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:02:08 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:05:14 -0900<BR>
>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>And SGJ in _Car Wars_ cited several works that inspired them to write it.<BR>
>One of the neat things about US Copyright is that Derivation can be<BR>
>ingnored if the deriver can point to multiple sources of inspiration that<BR>
>are all close to each other in nature, but not directly related.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
From the first page of the rules for Car Wars copyright 1981 SJG<BR>
<BR>
   "The designers would like to acknowledge this game's debt to all of<BR>
the battling autos of science fiction and spy literature. If you like this<BR>
game, you ought to look at Harlan Ellison's "Along the Scenic Route,"<BR>
Alan Dean Foster's "Why Johnny Can't Speed" (source of the "Drive<BR>
Offensively" motto), Roger Zelazny's "Damnation Alley, "Devil Car,"<BR>
and "Last of the Wild Ones," the films "Duel," "Mad Max," and<BR>
"Death race 2000," and every James Bond movie ever made."<BR>
<BR>
So it looks like SJG covered themselves on sources.<BR>
<BR>
I might add that if you like any of the works they cite you will probably<BR>
enjoy the game. I do. It's a wonderfull way to kill a 15 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
I'm furiously looking for an OBTrav. Perhaps a TL6-9 world has legalized<BR>
autodueling (or merely doesn't have the resources to stop it from hapening.)<BR>
OK it's a stretch but YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:30:55 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 20:05:05 EST<BR>
>From: Damage169@cs.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Simon Jester (get it?)<BR>
<BR>
Yes. And I'm increasingly of the opinion that anybody that dares<BR>
to post under that name really should be required to compose<BR>
in verse. Or at least rhyme once in a while.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:33:52 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: REPOST: Link to Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
- --------------AE82B51B6459E94416B2FA8B<BR>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
I posted this a couple of weeks ago, but since someone asked....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
- --------------AE82B51B6459E94416B2FA8B<BR>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
Content-Disposition: inline<BR>
<BR>
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000<BR>
Message-ID: <389357B5.3463FEDC@premier.net><BR>
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:12:21 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Organization: Church of the Immaculate '65 Mustang<BR>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U)<BR>
X-Accept-Language: en<BR>
MIME-Version: 1.0<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Link to Ditzie (was: Re: new trav player needs...)<BR>
References: <B4B7B52F.B282%xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>
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<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Via electronic medium on 1/24/00 6:08 AM, travelergm@hotmail.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > A pack of bubblegum, a FGMP-15, and a really good pair of Mirrorshades?<BR>
> > <evil grin><BR>
> <BR>
> Evil grin indeed, you didn't even drop a link to Ditzie. Poor newbie is<BR>
> probably still scratching his head. Could someone with the link handy clue<BR>
> the guy in?<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
<BR>
For the enlightenment of those who are new to the ongoing story of the<BR>
TML, Ditzie (formally Ditzammer Spofulam) has been described as follows:<BR>
<BR>
>The way it was described to me (after I blew it the first time), was that<BR>
>indeed it was meant as a joke.  She's this hyper-intelligent, very young<BR>
>girl with a speech impediment, almost no restraint whatsover :), and she<BR>
>happens to be the chief R&D designer for a company that makes some SERIOUS<BR>
>hardware.  And she was on "something", but I can't remember what it was<BR>
>supposed to be for.  Could be worse.  She was originally supposed to be a<BR>
>4yr old :)<BR>
<BR>
She is only the chief designer of the High Energy weapons Division.<BR>
Famille<BR>
Spofulam Yards is the other big arm, run by Ditzie's Uncle Hengebar,<BR>
producing ethically challenged starships and there's a projectile<BR>
weapons<BR>
division which played with an asteroid mass driver.... <BR>
<BR>
Some examples of Famile Spofulam's work can be found at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk<BR>
<BR>
[follow the "Archives" link from the main page]<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
- --------------AE82B51B6459E94416B2FA8B--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:46:10 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely correct - Daneel Olivaw 'discovered' the Zeroth Law during<BR>
Caves of Steel and began to implement it during later novels. This<BR>
came to fruition in the establishment of the Foundation and is the<BR>
basis for the trilogy of four (???) books.<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> Sent: 15 February 2000 22:24<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Fourth Robotic Law<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:44:14 -0500 (EST), GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >>By custom, all independent robots are required to=20<BR>
> >>incorporate at least the first and second of Dr. Asimov's laws=20<BR>
> >>of robotics.  If you know where to look IMTU, you will find=20<BR>
> >>planets inhabited by robots exclusively.  Every member of=20<BR>
> >>these societies have all 4 of Dr. Asimov's robotic laws.<BR>
><BR>
> >    What is the fourth? I know just 3.<BR>
><BR>
> >Probably  Law Zero:<BR>
> > "No Robot may harm Humanity, or through inaction allow<BR>
> Humanity to come to<BR>
> >harm."<BR>
><BR>
> Yes.  The other three are the 'classical' Three Laws:<BR>
><BR>
> I. A robot may not harm a human being, nor through inaction,<BR>
> allow a human being to come to harm.<BR>
><BR>
> II. A robot must follow the orders of a human being, except where<BR>
> doing so would conflict with the First Law.<BR>
><BR>
> III. A robot must preserve its own existence, except where doing<BR>
> so would conflict with the First or Second Laws.<BR>
><BR>
> > This can be found in the "middle" Robots books (names<BR>
> escape me, sorry) of<BR>
> >Asimov, after the three classic ones (I Robot, Caves of<BR>
> Steel, aaaand... ).<BR>
> >They were written much later to tie the original triple<BR>
> trilogy (Robots -<BR>
> >Empire - Foundation) together.<BR>
><BR>
> You may be thinking of the Elijah Baley/R. Daneel Olivaw series,<BR>
> which did _not_ include "I, Robot".  That series was "The Caves<BR>
> of Steel", "The Naked Sun", and "The Robots of Dawn"; the<BR>
> establishment of the "Zeroth Law" cited above and the first part<BR>
> of the connection to the Galactic Empire novels (representative<BR>
> novel: "The Stars, Like Dust") and the Foundation series was<BR>
> "Robots and Empire"; the connection was completed in "Foundation<BR>
> and Earth".<BR>
><BR>
> > In a Traveller world setting that was all robots, the<BR>
> Zero Law (and the<BR>
> >First, for that matter) may well change targets. Depending<BR>
> on how much<BR>
> >knowledge and access the robots have regarding the worlds<BR>
> beyond, they may<BR>
> >apply these laws to  just themselves (Humanity and Humans<BR>
> are replaced by<BR>
> >"Us"), or the Laws may spread to include all "sentient<BR>
> life". Staying focused<BR>
> >on Humaniti is also possible...<BR>
><BR>
> Something like this happened in (I believe) Robots and Empire, in<BR>
> which Aurora was apparently "deserted", but the robots had been<BR>
> 'programmed' to recognize as human only those humans from Aurora<BR>
> (or, because of the way the definition was set up, those who<BR>
> could flawlessly mimic an Auroran accent).<BR>
> --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1934<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1935</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 16 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1935<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re ST [ot]<BR>
Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
on target<BR>
RE: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
Re: Higher Education<BR>
Re: NYC Driving TML #1933<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Driving Rights, US<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Essays for Newbies<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: Higher education and my first post<BR>
law against boiling  them alive <BR>
my first post to the TML<BR>
Reality Intrusion<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:42:20 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Re ST [ot]<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/15/00 10:33:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< So you get what amounts to a burrito, enchilida, tamale, pocket<BR>
 sandwhich, whatever... only the "wrapper" of "bread" is one solid<BR>
 piece. Neater, less mess, and something we could almost do now. <BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
It's called a "hot pocket"....:-) (a frozen food snack that consists of solid <BR>
dough wrapper surrounding the goodies inside). I love'em; pop 'em in the <BR>
nuke, and there's no mess to clean up...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:49:22 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/16/00 2:12:23 AM !!!First Boot!!!, urbin@bigfoot.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<<   Article IV, Section 1: "Full faith and credit shall be given in each<BR>
  >state to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every<BR>
  >other state." >><BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah; let's see Kalifornia or the Peoples' Republic of NJ honor my NV <BR>
CCW...:-) and NO this is NOT another RKBA/2nd. Amen. flamewar troll...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:59:50 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: on target<BR>
<BR>
>The Zhodani are communists.<BR>
<BR>
This is actually true to the Cold War Traveller was modelling the 70's.<BR>
The Zhodani represented the Soviet Union.<BR>
<BR>
I guess that makes their Vargr allies Cubans... :-)<BR>
<BR>
I just got a mental image of a large Vargr in green fatigues with a big <BR>
cigar and a thick Spanish accent holding an AK-47.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
           You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication<BR>
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:03:42 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:<BR>
>>I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would<BR>
>>have been different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
>Possibly because lobsters AREN'T cats.  Duh.  Cats are carnivores,<BR>
>don't taste good, and unlike dogs, are not considered an acceptable<BR>
>food source in times other than famine by even those cultures that<BR>
>are notorious for their openmindedness about food.  There wouldn't<BR>
>need to be a law against boiling them alive because there is no<BR>
>good reason to do it.<BR>
<BR>
	IMHO, lobsters are scavangers (worse to eat than carnivores),<BR>
	don't taste good, and were until recently not considered an<BR>
	acceptable food source unless you were desperate.  But, to<BR>
	each their own.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The nervous system of a crustacean is also not as similar to our<BR>
>own as that of a warm blooded animal.<BR>
<BR>
	Yup, and the central nervous system is particularly different,<BR>
	so that even defining pain would be tricky.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:05:17 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Higher Education<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/16/00 6:24:58 PM !!!First Boot!!!, urbin@bigfoot.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< An old high school classmate, who graduated from West Point with a degree <BR>
 in English, got himself a transfer to the Naval graduate school for MBA <BR>
 work.  This was part of him wrangling a transfer to logistics.  He was <BR>
 previously in artillery and didn't see much of a career path there.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Interesting; Liberal Arts. I thought the acadamies REALLY pushed <BR>
Engineering...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:09:58 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: NYC Driving TML #1933<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/16/00 7:27:35 PM !!!First Boot!!!, eholmes@lanl.gov <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Bruce, you actually drove around in the Big Apple?  Whew!  you're<BR>
 a better man than I Gunga Din!<BR>
 <BR>
 I'm from upstate....Rain-, I mean Rochester, and the test is about the<BR>
 same, and I had similar results...The NYS testers seem to always<BR>
 flunk kids on their first try. >><BR>
<BR>
Nope; not me. I was wearing my Islanders jersey, and the first thing the <BR>
instructor said to me was "Did you catch the game last night?". I knew right <BR>
there I passed unless I really screwed up...:-) This was also when the <BR>
Islanders were winning Stanley cups like crazy...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:28:31 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
>> I understand that in ancient Greece women weren't allowed<BR>
>> to marry until they had prostituted themselves for a goddess.<BR>
>> I don't remember which one, but I do remember that they<BR>
>> wore sandals that and an obverse message on them.  Where<BR>
>> they walked, the message was pressed into the sand.  The<BR>
>> message?  "Follow me."<BR>
><BR>
>    You're mixing two stories there; sacred prostitution was more of a Near<BR>
>East thing, which Herodotus included in his _Histories_ as an example of a<BR>
>weird foreign custom.  The "Follow me" sandals were attributed to<BR>
>prostitutes somewhere in the Greco-Roman world, but I don't remember exactly<BR>
>when or where.<BR>
<BR>
Sacred protitution was Phoenecian, among others, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
The sandals were from Athens. Used as evidence of literacy among the<BR>
population (ie. not much point in having writing if only a few can<BR>
understand it).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:19:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 6:26, Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:52 PM -0800 2/15/2000, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
> >Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> >Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
> >> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
> >> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh<BR>
> >> water.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to for<BR>
> >injection.<BR>
> <BR>
> I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
> different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
<BR>
Would've been illegal in resturants long since - OSH (Occupational <BR>
Saftey and Health) would've outlawed it years ago, on account of how <BR>
the cat's writhing splashes boiling water on the cooks.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:19:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 8:56, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:32 PM 2/16/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
> >Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ha! Here in SF, we've just had a major row over the practice of selling<BR>
> live animals in Chinatown for food. You could go down there and buy<BR>
> chickens, eels, turtles.. all sorts of tasty critters.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you've never been to SF's Chinatown, be advised, this isn't a<BR>
> neighborhood that has a Chinese feel, this a piece of China transported to<BR>
> California. The street signs, window marquees, and menu and McDonalds are<BR>
> all in Chinese.<BR>
> <BR>
> So when the animal rights activists were protesting this, the Board of<BR>
> Stupes were all ready to come down on the Chinese community when somebody<BR>
> remembered that one of the big attractions at Fisherman's Wharf is buying<BR>
> live crab and having it cooked in front of you, right on the sidewalk in<BR>
> huge kettles.<BR>
<BR>
So selling animals for food is OK as long as it's out in the country <BR>
where the activists can't see it? Sounds more like The Commitee for <BR>
Good Taste to me.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:19:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 10:20, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Possibly because lobsters AREN'T cats.  Duh.  Cats are carnivores, don't<BR>
> taste good, and unlike dogs, are not considered an acceptable food source<BR>
> in times other than famine by even those cultures that are notorious for<BR>
> their openmindedness about food.  There wouldn't need to be a law against<BR>
> boiling them alive because there is no good reason to do it.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently domestic moggies actually taste pretty good. A friend of <BR>
mine's neigbour had a cat that kept crapping on his lawn, so he shot it <BR>
with a airpistol, and because of an argument with his mum over what <BR>
he'd be cooking for dinner that night he chopped up the cat and stewed <BR>
it. Apparently it tasted good enough that the rest of his family didn't <BR>
know it was anything odd until my friend's four year old son gave the <BR>
show away. He can't give a personal description, however, as he and his <BR>
son hah MacDonald's that night (wimps).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:19:02 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 8:58, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:26 AM 2/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have<BR>
> >been different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
> <BR>
> Of course it would be different! You don't boil cats! You roast them in a<BR>
> red wine sauce!<BR>
<BR>
Some parts of this country they do (boil them that is), and passing <BR>
dogs, too. I once flatted with a couple from Vanuatu, and was told that <BR>
the correst way to cook dog is to boil it first (gets rid of the <BR>
gameness and tenderises it), and then roast it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:35:13 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
> IMHO, lobsters are scavangers (worse to eat than carnivores),<BR>
> don't taste good, and were until recently not considered an<BR>
> acceptable food source unless you were desperate.  But, to<BR>
> each their own.<BR>
<BR>
Crabs, lobsters, shrimp, urchins, crayfish, catfish... all tasty scavengers.<BR>
Clams, oysters, mussels, etc. are even worse, they are filters (ew).  Clams<BR>
have been eaten in this area for several hundred years.  Crabs, too.<BR>
Lobsters are a little trickier to catch, though.  They stay in deeper water<BR>
and they fight back :-)  I do seriously doubt that they "feel" much of<BR>
anything, though.  Even when you split them down the back with a cleaver,<BR>
jam them full of shrimp stuffing and shoot them under the broiler they<BR>
remain relatively calm.<BR>
<BR>
- -Maine Yankee<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:22:40 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
>>> >Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
>>> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
>>> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh<BR>
water.<BR>
>><BR>
>>What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to for<BR>
injection.<BR>
><BR>
>I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
>different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
<BR>
That's really disgusting. Everyone knows that you shouldn't boil cats. It<BR>
makes the meat far to gamy. You broil them to a nice golden brown, with just<BR>
a hint of rosemary.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:23:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Driving Rights, US<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>In most cases, an out-of-state license is good for<BR>
>transit-and-sojourn, but if you change your residential<BR>
>commitment, you generally have 90 days or till the expiration of<BR>
>the out-of-state license, whichever comes first, to get a new<BR>
>license from your new home state.<BR>
<BR>
If you are military and a citizen of a different state then, unless you<BR>
deliberately change your residency in order to vote locally or for some<BR>
other reason, you retain your home state's license.  At least that is how it<BR>
worked in Texas when I was stationed at Ft. Bliss.<BR>
<BR>
Regards driving tests and the right to drive, here in Florida you may have<BR>
to take a driving test to get your license as a lad but if you are 80+ with<BR>
tunnel vision and the reflexes of a sloth you still have "a right to drive".<BR>
I see them every day, in big old Caddies and Lincolns peering owl eyed at<BR>
the world through their steering wheels on the interstate doing 45 or 50 in<BR>
a 65 MPH zone.  A popular saying down here is "When I get old I'll buy a<BR>
Caddy move up north and drive real slow."  They are like moving speed bumps.<BR>
Never, never, never blow your horn at one for failure to yield the right of<BR>
way because they will freeze just like a deer in your head lights half way<BR>
into your lane from a side street.<BR>
<BR>
Old folks who move to Florida may not be safe drivers but they VOTE.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:32:58 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
<BR>
"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
"Your Traveller Universe is too Australian when..."<BR>
"Your Traveller Universe is too German when..."<BR>
"Your Traveller Universe is too French when..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:35:58 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
<BR>
>>BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I <BR>
>>have violated TML etiquette in any way.  <BR>
><BR>
>Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself an<BR>
>enormous breach of TML etiquette.  To atone, please write a<BR>
>medium length essay on why piracy cannot exist in the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
<BR>
    Or why Marines shouldn't use cutlasses.<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:51:49 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Apparently domestic moggies actually taste pretty good. A friend of<BR>
mine's neigbour had a cat that kept crapping on his lawn, so he shot it<BR>
with a airpistol, and because of an argument with his mum over what<BR>
he'd be cooking for dinner that night he chopped up the cat and stewed<BR>
it. Apparently it tasted good enough that the rest of his family didn't<BR>
know it was anything odd until my friend's four year old son gave the<BR>
show away. He can't give a personal description, however, as he and his<BR>
son hah MacDonald's that night (wimps).<BR>
<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
    That's disgusting!<BR>
    You should hang the meat for at least 24 hours, or it'll be tougher than<BR>
a boot.<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:55:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 11:19 AM 2/17/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>So selling animals for food is OK as long as it's out in the country <BR>
>where the activists can't see it? Sounds more like The Commitee for <BR>
>Good Taste to me.<BR>
<BR>
Not even in the country. SF is only 47 square miles. The Wharf is *the*<BR>
tourist place, right smack on the city's north side. Aboyut ten minutes<BR>
from Chinatown.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:58:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
<BR>
At 04:49 PM 2/16/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Oh yeah; let's see Kalifornia or the Peoples' Republic of NJ honor my NV <BR>
>CCW...:-) and NO this is NOT another RKBA/2nd. Amen. flamewar troll...<BR>
<BR>
Take a close look at the CCW law. I'll bet that it specifies that the law<BR>
applies only to your home state.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:48:55 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
>A listing of the Imperials might include Clint Eastwood, Sylvester<BR>
>Stallone, Tom Cruise... or am I wrong ?    ;-)<BR>
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
Isn't he a little too short to be a stormtooper^H^H^H^.... Imperial Marine?<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:58:33 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 16 February 2000 17:11<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 06:26 AM 2/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
>>different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
><BR>
>Of course it would be different! You don't boil cats! You roast them in a<BR>
>red wine sauce!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Apparently, Cat is a very greasy meat...<BR>
<BR>
I was just watching a documentary about the escape attempts from Colditz<BR>
('Escape from Colditz', C4, UK TV... 3 1hr programs, just finished showing<BR>
here. Catch it if you can), and one of them was recounting the harsh days of<BR>
winter 44-45 when he ate some meat with a bone in it, and thought 'Oooh, a<BR>
real bone, I haven't seen one of those for ages.' He later found out the<BR>
British cat was, errr... 'missing'.<BR>
<BR>
>The Vilani Iron Chef.<BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I wonder what penguin tastes like...<BR>
<BR>
>  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,<BR>
>in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't that be 'The Magic Bread Pudding' <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:03:32 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Essays for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 16 February 2000 18:26<BR>
Subject: re: Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>From: John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com><BR>
><BR>
>>BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I<BR>
>>have violated TML etiquette in any way.<BR>
><BR>
>Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself an<BR>
>enormous breach of TML etiquette.  To atone, please write a<BR>
>medium length essay on why piracy cannot exist in the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Followed by another medium length essay on why piracy *must* exist in the<BR>
Imperium.... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:11:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Apparently domestic moggies actually taste pretty good. A friend of<BR>
> mine's neigbour had a cat that kept crapping on his lawn, so he shot it<BR>
> with a airpistol, and because of an argument with his mum over what<BR>
> he'd be cooking for dinner that night he chopped up the cat and stewed<BR>
> it. Apparently it tasted good enough that the rest of his family didn't<BR>
> know it was anything odd until my friend's four year old son gave the<BR>
> show away. He can't give a personal description, however, as he and his<BR>
> son hah MacDonald's that night (wimps).<BR>
<BR>
Imagine if you will having that effect with a normal human consumable, such<BR>
as chicken. My ex-wife can't stand chicken because she raised them when she<BR>
was a kid, and one day she came home from school, her family had chicken<BR>
soup on the table, and she asked her parents where her favorite chicken was.<BR>
It turned out they were eating her favorite chicken. And that turned her off<BR>
forever.<BR>
<BR>
11 years ago, during my divorce, my ex visited me with our son to try and<BR>
"save our marriage." For dinner my folks cooked chicken Rice-A-Roni and had<BR>
chicken hot dogs. We didn't tell her that it was chicken-based but she ate<BR>
it anyway.<BR>
<BR>
To this day, she's never found out.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:26:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ALERT! This post has the capability to be seen as personal attacks on<BR>
> several people. There are some serious comments buried in it, but I<BR>
> think I disguised as ObTrav...  ;-)<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------<BR>
> <BR>
> All the spaceships have names starting with USS.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Sunburst is replaced by the stars and stripes. (Douglas E. Berry)<BR>
> <BR>
> Fighter pilots and Marines are the only true heroes of the Imperium.<BR>
> <BR>
> No one is ever oppressed on Imperial worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
> Everyone is oppressed on non-Imperial worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Zhodani are communists.<BR>
> <BR>
> Corporations are founded by a single person's hard work.<BR>
> <BR>
> It is every person's constitutional right to land several tons of free<BR>
> trader in any starport, even those in the middle of cities.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mostly everyone speak English. Aliens speak bad accents of English.<BR>
> Zhodani speak either Russian or German.<BR>
> <BR>
> Corporations are generally not evil. If they are, they are corrupted by<BR>
> spies from another race of culture.<BR>
> <BR>
> An independent merchant is considered a hard-working, impressive person,<BR>
> not a sneaky bastard who would sell his own parents if given half a<BR>
> chance.<BR>
> <BR>
> Worlds are always happy to be brought into the Imperium.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Imperium never targets civilians in armed conflicts, although all<BR>
> other factions do.<BR>
<BR>
So where do the Japanese fit in? And the Italians?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:24:55 -0600<BR>
From: John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Higher education and my first post<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself an enormous breach of<BR>
TML etiquette.  To atone, please write a medium length essay on why piracy cannot<BR>
exist in the Imperium.<BR>
- - --Glenn<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
Nope, the last essay was one on that, Glenn. The new we decided was going to be on<BR>
the comparative tech levels of the Rule of Man era states.<BR>
- - --Evyn...<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
OK, OK,<BR>
1) piracy can/cannot exist in the Imperium if the referee chooses it to exist/not<BR>
exist (easy out, haha), but I guess it really could be effective (and profitable)<BR>
only in times of war, etc., when the vastly huge Imperial Navy has too many other<BR>
things to worry about (Zho's, Sol's, Vargr's of myriad affiliations, etc.).<BR>
Otherwise they just have too much force to apply to little ships which can't absorb<BR>
spinal-mount level damage (i.e. hello pirate corsair, fire spinal mount, vapors).<BR>
<BR>
2) Sorry, I don't even have an answer to this one.  My LBBs don't speak to it, and<BR>
the Solomani Alien Module is vague.  I'll plead ignorance.  However, MTU is TL12,<BR>
maybe this is a good baseline? (I'm reaching here).<BR>
<BR>
This last note is a reply to the first reply to my first post, which I unfortunately<BR>
deleted before replying: I was in Korea (2ID,506INF) from OCT94 to OCT95, and Fort<BR>
Bragg (82ABN, 325AIR) from NOV95 to SEP98.  I was an 11B1P, and I loved it, but I'm<BR>
glad I'm done, also.  (My feet are in much better shape now, but I miss the monthly<BR>
machinegun qualification)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:28:30 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: law against boiling  them alive <BR>
<BR>
>From: WriteFool@aol.comSubject: <BR>
>Re: JTAS - Rights [CATS OT]<BR>
>tiamat@tsoft.com writes:<BR>
<< Cats are carnivores, don't  taste good, and unlike dogs, are<BR>
>>not considered an acceptable food source in  times other than <BR>
>famine by even those cultures that are notorious for their  <BR>
>open mindedness about food. <BR>
>There wouldn't need to be a law against boiling  them alive <BR>
>because there is no good reason to do it. >><BR>
><BR>
>No good reason?  As a cat owner I can think of many.....<BR>
<BR>
As someone who has dated a cat owner, I can think of many.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:33:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>> >From: John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com>><BR>
>> >BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I<BR>
>> >have violated TML etiquette in any way.><BR>
>> Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself<BR>
>> an enormous breach of TML etiquette.  To atone, please write<BR>
a<BR>
>> medium length essay on why piracy cannot exist in the <BR>
>> Imperium.<BR>
>Nope, the last essay was one on that, Glenn. The new we decided<BR>
>was going to be on the comparative tech levels of the Rule of <BR>
>Man era states.<BR>
<BR>
Great.  John, let's see that essay tomorrow, and please be sure<BR>
to follow standard citation form in referring to canon.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:33:59 +1100<BR>
From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" <jimpeta@primus.com.au><BR>
Subject: Reality Intrusion<BR>
<BR>
    [Jim . . . Jim . . .]<BR>
<BR>
    Huh? What's that! I'm hearing voices!<BR>
<BR>
    [Jim. . . you have to . . . study]<BR>
<BR>
    <Shakes head><BR>
<BR>
    [Jim . . . get off . . . the net]<BR>
<BR>
    Maybe it's my conscience, or even my wife!<BR>
<BR>
    [That's right . . . idiot!]<BR>
<BR>
    Time to go and study, thank you for the informative and humorous<BR>
Traveller Material.<BR>
<BR>
    Jim<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1935<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 16 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1936<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
Re: Some pigs are equal to others<BR>
RE: lobster rights<BR>
dumplings:  the quintessential Solomani cuisine<BR>
RE: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
Lobster Rights<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
Re: Some pigs are equal to others<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: sheep <BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:39:33 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Great.  John, let's see that essay tomorrow, and please be sure<BR>
> to follow standard citation form in referring to canon.<BR>
<BR>
No!!  Not the Blue Book from Harvard!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:47:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
>I might add that if you like any of the works they cite you <BR>
>will probably enjoy the game. I do. It's a wonderfull way to <BR>
>kill a 15 minutes. I'm furiously looking for an OBTrav. Perhaps<BR>
<BR>
>a TL6-9 world has legalized autodueling (or merely doesn't have<BR>
<BR>
>the resources to stop it from hapening.) OK it's a stretch but <BR>
>YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
A Traveller Car Wars scenario could be like Somalia a few years<BR>
ago.  The tech level is pretty low and the standard of living is<BR>
much lower.  Some people have heavily armed wheeled vehicles<BR>
("technicals") for various purposes, legitimate or not.  The<BR>
PCs' ship lands at the starport with food and humanitarian<BR>
stuff.  <BR>
<BR>
While the ship is being unloaded, there is an urgent distress<BR>
call on the radio from some distant settlement -- a medical<BR>
emergency perhaps.  Local tech resources are stretched too thin<BR>
for various reasons, and the PCs are the only ones who are free<BR>
to help.  The ship will be stuck on the ground being off-loaded<BR>
for hours.  <BR>
<BR>
The PCs set off in their air/raft, but run into trouble (a<BR>
referee who can't crash an air/raft and strand a party should<BR>
learn to do so).  Now they have to get back to the starport<BR>
across potentially hostile territory with things of value --<BR>
themselves (potential ransom) and their stuff.  <BR>
<BR>
Do they capture a technical (or maybe just steal a big ol'<BR>
Cadillac) and drive home?  Does a rescue force from the capital<BR>
try to reach them?  In any case, there should be a running<BR>
firefight involving lots of wheeled vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
The referee should of course keep the ship out of action, or<BR>
this becomes much less interesting.  Again, a good referee<BR>
should think of a way to do that without difficulty.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:46:01 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Some pigs are equal to others<BR>
<BR>
SethKimmel wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
Oh yeah; let's see Kalifornia or the Peoples' Republic of NJ honor my NV<BR>
CCW...:-) and NO this is NOT another RKBA/2nd. Amen. flamewar troll...<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
Nor shouild they. We Australians feel that the poliferation of Collector Card<BR>
Wrappers has gotten out of control. Thank God for New Jersey and Calafornia!<BR>
<BR>
$:-)<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:25:41 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: lobster rights<BR>
<BR>
At 11:17 AM -0500 2/16/2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>	I cannot tell you what lobsters "feel," but as "cold-blooded"<BR>
>	organisms, they are not so bothered by changes in temperature<BR>
>	as we "homeotherms" are.  For example, cooling down a lobster<BR>
>	will not make it shiver, rather it will mostly just slow<BR>
>	down.  As to whether boiling water will cause "pain" to a<BR>
>	crustacian, who knows...<BR>
<BR>
And who cares, right?  I mean if they taste good, then it's probably<BR>
okay and probably doesn't hurt them.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  This whole topic is totally off-topic but it's something of<BR>
a sore point with me.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:58:36 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: dumplings:  the quintessential Solomani cuisine<BR>
<BR>
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
>It's called a "hot pocket"....:-) (a frozen food snack that <BR>
>consists of solid dough wrapper surrounding the goodies <BR>
>inside). I love'em; pop 'em in the nuke, and there's no mess to<BR>
<BR>
>clean up...<BR>
<BR>
This is the typical Solomani food.  Every cuisine that developed<BR>
on the homeworld includes some form of dumpling, something tasty<BR>
wrapped in something starchy, whatever it may be called (bao,<BR>
piiraat, knish, the list goes on and on).  This is one of the<BR>
tests that the Solomani use in measuring cultural compatibility<BR>
with newly contacted human races.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani, notably, do not have a native dumpling dish<BR>
(although they did adopt some from the Solomani).  The Zhodani,<BR>
perversely, love dumplings.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:06:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Yup, and the central nervous system is particularly different,<BR>
>so that even defining pain would be tricky.<BR>
<BR>
Could a human with psionic empathy tell whether a lobster was<BR>
suffering? or maybe telepathy, but I think that the lobster's<BR>
brain is not going to be very communicative at the best of<BR>
times.<BR>
<BR>
Do the Zhodani ever decide to stop eating something because it<BR>
suffers so much when being killed, and at least some Zhodani can<BR>
feel its pain?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:09:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
>Would've been illegal in resturants long since - OSH <BR>
>(Occupational Saftey and Health) would've outlawed it years <BR>
>ago, on account of how the cat's writhing splashes boiling <BR>
>water on the cooks.<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention the scratches likely to be incurred.  Cats always<BR>
know when you're trying to throw them into water, and they<BR>
become rather upset.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:18:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Delos" <delos@superior.net><BR>
Subject: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
I realize that this subject has drifted off into cats, but I work in a<BR>
Seafood Department in a grocery store where we sell live lobsters. Someone<BR>
mentioned that cats are carnivores and lobsters weren't, but I have<BR>
witnessed lobsters eating each other (usually two or three gang up on one<BR>
and eat their pal alive.)<BR>
<BR>
You know how lobsters have two antanae and they are usually different<BR>
lengths? That's partly because the lobsters get hungry in the box on the way<BR>
to the store/restaurant. Imagine yourself trapped in a bus with  about<BR>
thirty of your friends.... and everyone's hungry. =) In any case, they will<BR>
also eat almost any kind of seafood.<BR>
<BR>
I have also had to get lobsters ready to stuff, which involves stabbing them<BR>
(at first) in their brain when you make your cut to split them the long way.<BR>
They have such a primitive nerve network that even though they are dead,<BR>
they will flop around for a few minutes even after being split in half. That<BR>
was kind of weird.<BR>
Now that I think about it, I will use something like it in my game as a<BR>
'native' delicacy.<BR>
<BR>
Can you imagine your Traveller players shipping a cargo of several tons of<BR>
lobsters and finding only one or two alive when they got to their<BR>
destination? The rest will be missing some or all of their antanaes, eyes,<BR>
legs, 'fins' and even large sections of their tails if the lobsters are<BR>
hungry enough.<BR>
<BR>
Alternately, there is always the spoilage. If lobsters are out of the cold<BR>
seawater more than 48 hours (or so) they'll dehydrate and die. The 'lobster<BR>
life support' might fail during the trip....<BR>
<BR>
Delos<BR>
delos@superior.net<BR>
(No, I don't eat lobster. But I would like to try some penguin...=) )<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:28:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
>If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
>"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
<BR>
If I may be so bold:<BR>
<BR>
Your Traveller Universe is Too Finnish when:<BR>
<BR>
- -you assign 2dtons of sauna space for every eight persons aboard<BR>
a ship<BR>
<BR>
- -Blade Combat skill cascades into additional categories: Hunting<BR>
Knife, Large; Hunting Knife, Medium; Hunting Knife, Small<BR>
<BR>
- -Carousing always involves vodka, beer, and little open-faced<BR>
sandwiches<BR>
<BR>
- -PCs going carousing always decide beforehand which one will be<BR>
the designated air/raft driver<BR>
<BR>
- -character generation may lead to skills in Skiing and Swimming<BR>
<BR>
- -that's true of any service<BR>
<BR>
- -Naasirka is actually a wholly-owned subsidiary of Nokia, which<BR>
acquired control as part of the settlements ending the<BR>
Interstellar Wars<BR>
<BR>
- -Naasirka personal commo devices really are the best in the<BR>
galaxy<BR>
<BR>
- -anyone using a Naasirka personal commo device who does not have<BR>
Engineering-1, Electronics-1, or Commo-1 must make a task roll<BR>
of "difficult" to do anything with the device<BR>
<BR>
- -everyone wants to know what "tavo" refers to, and why someone<BR>
would name a world "my tavo's" (Tavonni); my tavo's what?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:45:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
>>A listing of the Imperials might include Clint Eastwood,<BR>
>>Sylvester Stallone, Tom Cruise... or am I >>wrong             <BR>
          ^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
>Isn't he a little too short to be a stormtooper^H^H^H^.... <BR>
>Imperial Marine?<BR>
<BR>
Not too short to be an Imperial fighter pilot, I'm sure, or may<BR>
an Imperial Navy lawyer.<BR>
<BR>
First take on casting the Fifth Frontier War movie:<BR>
<BR>
Harvey Keitel as Norris<BR>
John Wayne (from In Harm's Way) as Admiral Elphinstone<BR>
Edward G. Robinson (in his later movies) as Admiral Santanocheev<BR>
Max von Sydow as Ambassador Shterbifriashav (or whatever his<BR>
name was)<BR>
Omar Sharif (from Lawrence of Arabia) as Provincial Governor<BR>
Shtaliajtlas<BR>
Jurgen Prochnow as Count Trask of Gram<BR>
Arnold Schwarzenegger as General von Moltke, commander of Sword<BR>
Worlds ground forces<BR>
Vargr characters as themselves (do it right with CGI)<BR>
<BR>
I want Gong Li and Michelle Yeoh in the movie, too, but I<BR>
haven't figured out their places.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:00:00 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>> >Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
> >>> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
> >>> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh<BR>
> water.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to for<BR>
> injection.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
> >different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
> <BR>
> That's really disgusting. Everyone knows that you shouldn't boil cats. It<BR>
> makes the meat far to gamy. You broil them to a nice golden brown, with just<BR>
> a hint of rosemary.<BR>
> <BR>
Hmmm.  Rosemary.  Hadn't thought about it, but I'll bet that rosemary<BR>
would also enhance the flavor of freshly broiled K'kree.  I'll have to<BR>
try it when I get a chance.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:01:59 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Apparently domestic moggies actually taste pretty good. A friend of<BR>
> mine's neigbour had a cat that kept crapping on his lawn, so he shot it<BR>
> with a airpistol, and because of an argument with his mum over what<BR>
> he'd be cooking for dinner that night he chopped up the cat and stewed<BR>
> it. Apparently it tasted good enough that the rest of his family didn't<BR>
> know it was anything odd until my friend's four year old son gave the<BR>
> show away. He can't give a personal description, however, as he and his<BR>
> son hah MacDonald's that night (wimps).<BR>
> <BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
>     That's disgusting!<BR>
>     You should hang the meat for at least 24 hours, or it'll be tougher than<BR>
> a boot.<BR>
<BR>
Not if you use a good marinade.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:09:11 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
Is there anything they don't tax or charge for over there?  I used to think<BR>
that Monty-Python skit on taxing using the bathroom was funny but now I'm<BR>
not so sure..<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 11:29 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Jory Earl wrote:<BR>
> > Since when is it illegal to have a functioning TV set?<BR>
><BR>
> Welcome to  the  thread.  The  answer  is:  When  the  government<BR>
> decides to  tax  ownership  but  you  don't  pay.  (This  is  the<BR>
> situation in the UK.)<BR>
><BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:01:54 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 12:05:24 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< ake a close look at the CCW law. I'll bet that it specifies that the law<BR>
 applies only to your home state.<BR>
 --  >><BR>
<BR>
quite correct...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:10:07 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
Delos wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Can you imagine your Traveller players shipping a cargo of several tons of<BR>
> lobsters and finding only one or two alive when they got to their<BR>
> destination? The rest will be missing some or all of their antanaes, eyes,<BR>
> legs, 'fins' and even large sections of their tails if the lobsters are<BR>
> hungry enough.<BR>
> <BR>
> Alternately, there is always the spoilage. If lobsters are out of the cold<BR>
> seawater more than 48 hours (or so) they'll dehydrate and die. The 'lobster<BR>
> life support' might fail during the trip....<BR>
<BR>
Any reason why you can't ship lobsters in low berths?  That would solve<BR>
both problems in one swell foop.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:04:37 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Some pigs are equal to others<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 1:48:34 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Nor shouild they. We Australians feel that the poliferation of Collector <BR>
Card<BR>
 Wrappers has gotten out of control. Thank God for New Jersey and Calafornia! <BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
ROTFLMOA!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:05:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> First take on casting the Fifth Frontier War movie:<BR>
> <BR>
> Harvey Keitel as Norris<BR>
> John Wayne (from In Harm's Way) as Admiral Elphinstone<BR>
> Edward G. Robinson (in his later movies) as Admiral Santanocheev<BR>
> Max von Sydow as Ambassador Shterbifriashav (or whatever his<BR>
> name was)<BR>
> Omar Sharif (from Lawrence of Arabia) as Provincial Governor<BR>
> Shtaliajtlas<BR>
> Jurgen Prochnow as Count Trask of Gram<BR>
> Arnold Schwarzenegger as General von Moltke, commander of Sword<BR>
> Worlds ground forces<BR>
> Vargr characters as themselves (do it right with CGI)<BR>
> <BR>
> I want Gong Li and Michelle Yeoh in the movie, too, but I<BR>
> haven't figured out their places.<BR>
<BR>
So who will play Ditzie? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:08:46 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 2:18:57 AM !!!First Boot!!!, delos@superior.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< but I have<BR>
 witnessed lobsters eating each other (usually two or three gang up on one<BR>
 and eat their pal alive.)<BR>
 <BR>
 You know how lobsters have two antanae and they are usually different<BR>
 lengths? That's partly because the lobsters get hungry in the box on the way<BR>
 to the store/restaurant. >><BR>
<BR>
I thought their claws were rubber banded and/or pegged to prevent this?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:05:49 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
><BR>
>>If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
>>"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Your Traveller Universe is Too Japanese (or your ref has watched too much<BR>
anime, though this is based half on anime and half on the way Japanese<BR>
businesses seem to operate)  When:<BR>
<BR>
You have both baths AND showers and crew is expected to use both at least<BR>
once per day;<BR>
<BR>
Carousing is a required skill and increases by one level with each<BR>
promotion;<BR>
<BR>
Rules are strict and strongly enforced, but being drunk is a legitimate<BR>
excuse for almost any misbehavior;<BR>
<BR>
Female characters in uniform are considered the hottest babes available and<BR>
regulation white panties are part of the uniform;<BR>
<BR>
All crews must have at least one female character who will be available at<BR>
all times to serve tea and say "Welcome" and "Thank you very much" to any<BR>
patrons as they enter and leave the ship;<BR>
<BR>
Character generation begins at age 13 (can be 10 or 11 for girls) and high<BR>
school students are routinely recruited for Imperium-saving missions;<BR>
<BR>
There are no shinobi (ninjas) but they keep recruiting those nice, polite<BR>
and really quiet people from out in the countryside for reconnaissance and<BR>
intelligence missions;<BR>
<BR>
Those with social status of 8+ routinely have "Blade Combat" and "Golf"<BR>
skills;<BR>
<BR>
Disputes may be settled by karaoke or poetry competition if everyone is<BR>
drunk enough;<BR>
<BR>
At least one member of the crew or team is gay, with long flowing hair and a<BR>
really bad temper (probably because usually ONLY one member of the team is<BR>
gay);<BR>
<BR>
Mitsubishi makes everything, including Battle Dress (in Japan, Mitsubishi<BR>
really does make almost everything... refrigerators, even!);<BR>
<BR>
Mitsubishi Battle Dress has gravjets and allows the wearer to jump from the<BR>
surface of planets to the ship of which he or she is a crew;<BR>
<BR>
Mitsubishi Battle Dress for females sometimes comes in the form of a<BR>
candy-colored abbreviated school or service uniform with a fluttery short<BR>
skirt and regulation white panties, and the weapons portion looks like a<BR>
candy fairy princess wand.  Extra points for big, loose socks.  =)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:27:29 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
> On 16 Feb 00, at 8:56, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Ha! Here in SF, we've just had a major row over the practice of selling<BR>
live animals in Chinatown for food. You could go down there and buy<BR>
chickens, eels, turtles.. all sorts of tasty critters.<BR>
>> If you've never been to SF's Chinatown, be advised, this isn't a<BR>
neighborhood that has a Chinese feel, this a piece of China transported to<BR>
California. The street signs, window marquees, and menu and McDonalds are<BR>
all in Chinese.<BR>
>><BR>
Well, except for the tourist traps, Doug.  =)<BR>
<BR>
>> So when the animal rights activists were protesting this, the Board of<BR>
Stupes were all ready to come down on the Chinese community when somebody<BR>
remembered that one of the big attractions at Fisherman's Wharf is buying<BR>
live crab and having it cooked in front of you, right on the sidewalk in<BR>
huge kettles.<BR>
>><BR>
LOL!!!  That's true!<BR>
<BR>
> So selling animals for food is OK as long as it's out in the country where<BR>
the activists can't see it? Sounds more like The Commitee for Good Taste to<BR>
me.<BR>
><BR>
No, Fisherman's Wharf is right out where everyone can see it too.  But it is<BR>
patronized by tourists from all over the world, and is not a poor immigrant<BR>
community.<BR>
<BR>
OK, here's my final statement on the matter.<BR>
<BR>
One of the reasons why I have NO RESPECT for the so-called "animal rights"<BR>
movement as a whole is that they play the race and class cards so viciously.<BR>
<BR>
They know that people are prejudiced against the Chinese and that the habit<BR>
of buying live animals seems "primitive" to the white, middle-class<BR>
city-dwelling yupsters who make up the majority of their movement.  (I have<BR>
never known an animal rights activist who was actually raised on a farm.<BR>
People who spend a lot of time around chickens and cows rarely wax romantic<BR>
about them.)  So they go all out against the people in Chinatown because<BR>
they know that these are immigrants whose practices seem strange to others,<BR>
despite the fact that if you are really concerned about cruelty to animals,<BR>
the practices of the factory farming industry are far worse.<BR>
<BR>
(But you will never be able to reform the meat and fur industries as long as<BR>
their only critics are "animal rights" activists who believe they should be<BR>
abolished.  I wouldn't listen to anyone who wanted to put me out of business<BR>
either-- it's potential customers who would have the most control over my<BR>
business practices if I were in their shoes.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
They also have a habit of physically assaulting wealthy women in furs.<BR>
Class hatred causes many people to applaud the drenching of wealthy ladies<BR>
in paint despite the fact that legally this is assault and battery,<BR>
vandalism, etc.  It is to be noted that they never do this to bikers clad<BR>
from head to foot in leather.  I wonder why.<BR>
<BR>
They also break into laboratory buildings such as the one where I work, and<BR>
in the name of "freedom" liberate animals who then, terrified, trample one<BR>
another to death.  (Horrible experiments such as the sort of thing that PeTA<BR>
likes to promote in their literature are not permitted under current<BR>
laboratory guidelines; lab animals generally receive excellent care and are<BR>
so carefully bred that they could not live in the wild if they had to.)<BR>
<BR>
One person of my personal acquaintance lost her pet lizard, which she kept<BR>
at her desk during the weekdays, to such a group.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, don't even get me started.  Having worked in large fancy department<BR>
stores and then having worked in laboratories for the last 5 years has<BR>
confirmed everything I ever believed about PeTA and the like.  Just be aware<BR>
that anyone who ever splashed paint on me would be made to wish they had<BR>
never been born by my lawyers.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's<BR>
a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect and love your darkest side,<BR>
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical.  It's all about giving<BR>
yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:44:47 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: sheep <BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>>If you drop a sheep off a building, and it hits the ground with a splat, all<BR>
>>you have proven is that that particular sheep, on that occasion, either did <BR>
>>not fly or _chose not to_. Frankly, I think they can fly and are all sworn to<BR>
>>keep it a secret. <BR>
><BR>
>  And now this thought is immortalised on the Web.<BR>
>The author must be sheepish<BR>
<BR>
  I'm not responsible for this turn of events...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:06:19 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
WOW.<BR>
Glad to see someone else has a few problems with PETA.<BR>
My friends who breed and show Pekingese have horror stories about these<BR>
folks and their sneak attacks on show dogs to make them unshowable at the<BR>
last minute.<BR>
<BR>
While I have never been to SF, I will say that going to the<BR>
Chinese/Vietnamese markets in Houston is not to be missed. Picking your fish<BR>
fresh out of a tank is great, not to mention baggin your own live crabs :)<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
- ------------------------<BR>
"Never apologize, never explain<BR>
                Hunter S Thompson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1936<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1937</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/17/00 2:55:05 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 17 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1937<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Higher Education<BR>
RE: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: Katzeburgers<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
re:  Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
Re:  Surplus Economics<BR>
Re Driver's Liscences<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too Japanese when...<BR>
RE: TL of Troops<BR>
Re: Higher education and my first post<BR>
Re: Higher education and my first post<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
BOZ ammunition<BR>
Re YTU is too...<BR>
RE: sheep <BR>
Re: Magazine indexes<BR>
Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:08:32 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Higher Education<BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel@aol.com writes:<BR>
 >In a message dated 2/16/00 6:24:58 PM !!!First Boot!!!, urbin@bigfoot.com<BR>
 >writes:<BR>
 ><< An old high school classmate, who graduated from West Point with a degree<BR>
 > in English, got himself a transfer to the Naval graduate school for MBA<BR>
 > work.  This was part of him wrangling a transfer to logistics.  He was<BR>
 > previously in artillery and didn't see much of a career path there.<BR>
 >Interesting; Liberal Arts. I thought the acadamies REALLY pushed<BR>
 >Engineering...<BR>
<BR>
Well, yes...you could study engineering if you wanted to work hard...<BR>
I'm told the real course load was saved for the Military History majors...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>
- ----<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled<BR>
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential<BR>
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the<BR>
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are <BR>
remitted<BR>
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:45:09 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> At 12:35 -0500 16/2/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
wrote:<BR>
> >OTOH, my license is good until 2017...<BR>
><BR>
> 2037 in my case....<BR>
<BR>
Well, up until last year, mine was valid for "life".<BR>
<BR>
Then the government changed the rules because they weren't making enough<BR>
money on lifetime licenses an needed some more income.<BR>
<BR>
Now it's only valid for five years, and then I'll have to pay again<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:42:22 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Katzeburgers<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-02-16 20:36:17 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Apparently domestic moggies actually taste pretty good. >><BR>
<BR>
I have one relevant anecdote: According to a book on PT boats, a boat crew in <BR>
the Phillipines during the siege of Corrigidor shot and ate a pesky tomcat in <BR>
desperation after rations were severely cut back. Minority opinion was that <BR>
it tasted like rabbit. Majority opinion was that it tasted like broiled <BR>
alleycat. <BR>
<BR>
Matter of taste, I suppose. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:45:45 +1000<BR>
From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:05:28   Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> First take on casting the Fifth Frontier War movie:<BR>
<BR>
>So who will play Ditzie? :) :)<BR>
<BR>
Oh wow.... "Fith Frontier War....The Musical"<BR>
<BR>
With teams of tap dancing Zhodani in Harem scenes, Aslan love songs .... wow!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:00:05 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: re:  Higher Education in the Military<<BR>
<BR>
On 02/16/00 at 10:06 AM,  Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com><BR>
<BR>
>>BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I <BR>
>>have violated TML etiquette in any way.  <BR>
<BR>
>Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself an enormous<BR>
>breach of TML etiquette.  To atone, please write a medium length essay on<BR>
>why piracy cannot exist in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
...and then rebut it. <g><BR>
<BR>
Welcome from the heretic wing of the TML, John.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:12:06 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 3:49 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> >You've played the "Worms" computer game then, have you?<BR>
><BR>
> No, never heard of it.  What's it like?<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
It is quite an amusing, "simple" children's (yeah, right!) game that a house<BR>
full of adults can spent an evening-wee hours playing.  You get a troop of<BR>
individually named worms in berets, armed with rocket launchers, flamers,<BR>
grenades, mines, and more!  Don't ask how they handle them, it's to "cute"<BR>
to worry about.  Anyway, your troop has to kill off all the other similarly<BR>
armed worm troops (either other players or computer) for the best of<BR>
3-rounds.  They speak, with cute sayings like, "I'll get you for that!" in<BR>
squeaky little worm voices, and there are periodic "ammo drops" with extra<BR>
rockets, mines and the like.<BR>
<BR>
The reason I mentioned them in relation to the exploding sheep thing, is<BR>
because you can pick-up one in these randomly selected ammo drops... you<BR>
release the sheep and it bounces across the screen, into holes or down<BR>
tunnels, and when it is close enough to an enemy, you set it off remotely<BR>
and BOOM!!!!  One big hole and possibly several dead or wounded worms!<BR>
<BR>
A good time waster if you have had a few beers/wines/scotches/etc. with<BR>
friends!<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:55:29 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Surplus Economics<BR>
<BR>
>>> >> Simple. *His* culture (and many others) has a market economy. Earth<BR>
>>> >> doesn't.<BR>
>>> ><BR>
>>> > How do you explain Jake Sisco's dad's restaurant?  Mr. Sisco<BR>
>>> > charges for meals.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Oh? Where is that established?<BR>
>><BR>
>> In one episode a couple is seen leaving and he accepts<BR>
>> something which he puts in what looks like a register.<BR>
><BR>
>Ok, that kills that. Well, actually, there's still room to argue, but<BR>
>the alternative possibilities all require the writers of the show to be<BR>
>*far* more intelligent and insightful than is plausible.<BR>
><BR>
>On the other hand, it could be a one episode oversight...<BR>
<BR>
Or, it could just be a comment card.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 21:05:19 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Driver's Liscences<BR>
<BR>
>>  I suspect that states cannot legally refuse<BR>
>>  to recognize a driver's license from another state, however.<BR>
><BR>
>For driving no. For other things yes (such as purchasing alcohol or<BR>
>cigerettes).<BR>
><BR>
>Bryan<BR>
<BR>
Since when?<BR>
<BR>
The full faith and credit requirements apply to ID's, birth certificates,<BR>
and marriage certificates. Federal code does specify that; I'd have to go<BR>
look it up in the archives to get specific reference; it determined exactly<BR>
what the federal government says is ID valid in any state, and what<BR>
documents are valid, even though not as ID.<BR>
<BR>
 The only problem I've ever had was in florida and texas, and it was the<BR>
same in both: The idiot behind the counter refused to accept that I was a<BR>
US citizen and demanded my (Non-existant, due to it being non-applicable)<BR>
green card, since "serving illegals is illegal". In one case I simply told<BR>
him to check with the INS about Alaska, and his manager corrected him. In<BR>
another, the clerk called the INS... and they told him he'd better accept<BR>
it as being as valid as a Florida one (This was in the Orlando area). They<BR>
also laughed quite loudly, and invited me to complain direct to them if the<BR>
store didn't accept it, as they suspected the store hired illegals...<BR>
<BR>
I've been asked for green cards over a dozen times between one trip to<BR>
texas and 3 to florida. In oregon and washington, the one idiot asked "So<BR>
which province is Anchorage in?"<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:39:57 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too Japanese when...<BR>
<BR>
ROFLMAOUIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
You REALLY know what you are talking about lady!!<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
(This perhaps, qualifies as my first "splort?")<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 1:05 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> >>If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
> >>"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Your Traveller Universe is Too Japanese (or your ref has watched too much<BR>
> anime, though this is based half on anime and half on the way Japanese<BR>
> businesses seem to operate)  When:<BR>
><BR>
> You have both baths AND showers and crew is expected to use both at least<BR>
> once per day;<BR>
><BR>
> Carousing is a required skill and increases by one level with each<BR>
> promotion;<BR>
><BR>
> Rules are strict and strongly enforced, but being drunk is a legitimate<BR>
> excuse for almost any misbehavior;<BR>
><BR>
> Female characters in uniform are considered the hottest babes available<BR>
and<BR>
> regulation white panties are part of the uniform;<BR>
><BR>
> All crews must have at least one female character who will be available at<BR>
> all times to serve tea and say "Welcome" and "Thank you very much" to any<BR>
> patrons as they enter and leave the ship;<BR>
><BR>
> Character generation begins at age 13 (can be 10 or 11 for girls) and high<BR>
> school students are routinely recruited for Imperium-saving missions;<BR>
><BR>
> There are no shinobi (ninjas) but they keep recruiting those nice, polite<BR>
> and really quiet people from out in the countryside for reconnaissance and<BR>
> intelligence missions;<BR>
><BR>
> Those with social status of 8+ routinely have "Blade Combat" and "Golf"<BR>
> skills;<BR>
><BR>
> Disputes may be settled by karaoke or poetry competition if everyone is<BR>
> drunk enough;<BR>
><BR>
> At least one member of the crew or team is gay, with long flowing hair and<BR>
a<BR>
> really bad temper (probably because usually ONLY one member of the team is<BR>
> gay);<BR>
><BR>
> Mitsubishi makes everything, including Battle Dress (in Japan, Mitsubishi<BR>
> really does make almost everything... refrigerators, even!);<BR>
><BR>
> Mitsubishi Battle Dress has gravjets and allows the wearer to jump from<BR>
the<BR>
> surface of planets to the ship of which he or she is a crew;<BR>
><BR>
> Mitsubishi Battle Dress for females sometimes comes in the form of a<BR>
> candy-colored abbreviated school or service uniform with a fluttery short<BR>
> skirt and regulation white panties, and the weapons portion looks like a<BR>
> candy fairy princess wand.  Extra points for big, loose socks.  =)<BR>
><BR>
> Kiri  =)<BR>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
> tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
><BR>
> "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
> sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
> and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
> impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
>                                 -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 06:19:45 +1000<BR>
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TL of Troops<BR>
<BR>
Date:	Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:17:53 +0000<BR>
From:	SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject:	Re: TL of troops<BR>
<BR>
At 9:24 -0500 14/2/00,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > while the F-22 is fairly<BR>
> > stealthy. So I would guess that any missile which can lock onto an F-22<BR>
can<BR>
> > also take out a biplane.<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, but that's the whole *point* of being stealthy. You can't *get*<BR>
>a lock on an F-22. Not with radar anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Is that like 'you can't get a lock on an F117' or is it better than that ;-)<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
Has theF-22 be tested against  Over-the-Horizon systems? As I understand it,<BR>
the Stealth Bomber was picked up fairly easily by Over-the-Horizon.<BR>
<BR>
Craig Brain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:57:09 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Higher education and my first post<BR>
<BR>
John Littleton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 2) Sorry, I don't even have an answer to this one.  My LBBs don't speak to it, and<BR>
> the Solomani Alien Module is vague.  I'll plead ignorance.  However, MTU is TL12,<BR>
> maybe this is a good baseline? (I'm reaching here).<BR>
<BR>
Try general max.....<BR>
<BR>
> This last note is a reply to the first reply to my first post, which I unfortunately<BR>
> deleted before replying: I was in Korea (2ID,506INF) from OCT94 to OCT95, and Fort<BR>
> Bragg (82ABN, 325AIR) from NOV95 to SEP98.  I was an 11B1P,<BR>
<BR>
Ok, 'splain this..... I got the unit numbers ( BTW my Dad was 2nd inf. But he wasthere a<BR>
lot earlier...)<BR>
<BR>
> and I loved it, but I'm<BR>
> glad I'm done, also.  (My feet are in much better shape now, but I miss the monthly<BR>
> machinegun qualification)<BR>
<BR>
 So how are the knees.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:13:53 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Higher education and my first post<BR>
<BR>
At 20:34 -0500 16/2/00, John Littleton <litljohn71@stlnet.com> wrote:<BR>
>2) Sorry, I don't even have an answer to this one.  My LBBs don't <BR>
>speak to it, and<BR>
>the Solomani Alien Module is vague.  I'll plead ignorance.  However, <BR>
>MTU is TL12,<BR>
>maybe this is a good baseline? (I'm reaching here).<BR>
<BR>
GTL12 or TL12?<BR>
<BR>
Milieu?<BR>
<BR>
In CT the Solomani Rim has a higher average TL than the Imperium <BR>
IIRC, but a lower overall TL.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:20:46 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 23:05 -0500 16/2/00, "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>  wrote:<BR>
>Oh, don't even get me started.  Having worked in large fancy department<BR>
>stores and then having worked in laboratories for the last 5 years has<BR>
>confirmed everything I ever believed about PeTA and the like.  Just be aware<BR>
>that anyone who ever splashed paint on me would be made to wish they had<BR>
>never been born by my lawyers.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I believe that PETA has just decided to expand its anti-fur <BR>
campaign to anti-leather too according to the national UK press.<BR>
<BR>
I guess they're going to find out why it's a *bad* idea to throw <BR>
paint at a biker etc and why you might get a different reaction to a <BR>
fashion junkie....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 00:31:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 23:05 -0500 16/2/00, "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>  wrote:<BR>
> >Oh, don't even get me started.  Having worked in large fancy department<BR>
> >stores and then having worked in laboratories for the last 5 years has<BR>
> >confirmed everything I ever believed about PeTA and the like.  Just be aware<BR>
> >that anyone who ever splashed paint on me would be made to wish they had<BR>
> >never been born by my lawyers.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, I believe that PETA has just decided to expand its anti-fur <BR>
> campaign to anti-leather too according to the national UK press.<BR>
> <BR>
They've always been anti-leather-- they just don't make a big deal of it.<BR>
That's one of the annoying things about them.<BR>
<BR>
> I guess they're going to find out why it's a *bad* idea to throw <BR>
> paint at a biker etc and why you might get a different reaction to a <BR>
> fashion junkie....<BR>
> <BR>
I just don't understand why more of them aren't arrested and sued.<BR>
<BR>
I don't currently own a fur, but if I did, I'd be able to afford a good<BR>
lawyer.  And I do stand to inherit a fur piece or two, and if someone<BR>
splashed paint on them, I'd at the very least complain to the police that<BR>
I'd been assaulted and battered and give a description-- these people<BR>
don't usually sneak up on you and silently splash you, they make a big<BR>
deal of the thing, so you're bound to be able to remember them.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:41:38 +0200<BR>
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi><BR>
Subject: BOZ ammunition<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> ... 5.56x23 mm BOZ pistol round (.224 BOZ) ... (.224/V)...<BR>
<BR>
> Do you have any more info (URLs, for example) on these two types of<BR>
> ammunition?<BR>
<BR>
	It took a while before I could dug up more information about <BR>
	these high-velocity pistol ammunition. Fortunately I have a few <BR>
	friends in Nammo Lapua, who experiment with new kinds of <BR>
	ammunition.<BR>
<BR>
	The .223 BOZ was developed by:<BR>
<BR>
	http://www.civil-defense.org/<BR>
<BR>
	Some additional information can be found from my site at:<BR>
<BR>
	http://donatello.ee.tut.fi/ACR.html<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi<BR>
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:45:36 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re YTU is too...<BR>
<BR>
>If I may be so bold:<BR>
><BR>
Your Traveller Universe is Too Alaskan when:<BR>
<BR>
CGen grants every one from a habitable world Level 0 in Snowshoes, Mushing<BR>
(AKA Drive dogsled), or Skiing<BR>
<BR>
All the deserts flood every summer from mountain runoff, and they look like<BR>
swamps until ocered with an inch of snow.<BR>
<BR>
High common TL is 15. Low Common Tl is 1. Everything in between is<BR>
represented about equally, except there is an abundance of used TL13 and 14<BR>
stuff available REALLY CHEAP.<BR>
<BR>
Carousing includes the ability to build a shelter out of any natural<BR>
materials at hand, including snow and/or fish.<BR>
<BR>
Nasiraaka, Sharushid, and Makidhadrun are the EASY names to pronounce.<BR>
<BR>
Fur Trapping and mining are considered reasons to celebrate.<BR>
<BR>
No multi-branch government can get the executive branch to do anything<BR>
resembling the legilative branch's efforts.<BR>
<BR>
Every world has at least three large grazers, and they're far mor dangerous<BR>
than the omnivorous beasites. (Moose cause more injuries than Bears... What<BR>
do you expect for unseelie elk?)<BR>
<BR>
No world has a name without a gutteral or glottal consonant.<BR>
<BR>
Every language has two written forms, both based upon alphabets that lack<BR>
the needed sounds.<BR>
<BR>
Sexual attractiveness is judged by faces, 'cause nobody can tell what's<BR>
under the parka.<BR>
<BR>
You have a world named Knikniknik J1 from Knikkinik, and all the locals in<BR>
nearby systems can't seem to understand why you can't keep them straight.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody can get their trial moved away simply because their name was in the<BR>
paper.<BR>
<BR>
Each cluster of worlds has one mid-pop, and a dozen low pop worlds, and<BR>
there are only rumors of High-pop worlds.<BR>
<BR>
You find pilots who are both Old and Bold, and still flying, in craft which<BR>
haven't been seen in service anywhere else in 50 years, and charge as much<BR>
as the new liners would, and will hit any out of the way world for the<BR>
right price, without reguard for how it is zoned or how bad (or<BR>
non-existant) the port might be.<BR>
<BR>
Everybody has a gun, and some booze, and doesn't care what the law says<BR>
about either, but they blame law enforcement for public intoxication and<BR>
violence in the streets.<BR>
<BR>
Divorce means shooting your spouse. Easy divorce means the spouse was<BR>
armed, so it's labeled "Self Defense" by the detectives.<BR>
<BR>
Subsector government officials are either known mobsters or former imperial<BR>
officers, but everyone thinks it's okay because they don't try to hide it.<BR>
<BR>
Ships crash all the time, but you never know cause most worlds don't have<BR>
enough population to notice unless it is the mail run.<BR>
<BR>
Overnight mail means 2-3 days. 2-3 days means 1-2 weeks. 4-8 weeks means<BR>
next week.<BR>
<BR>
Most worlds are frozen solid in the winter, and broiling hot in the summer.<BR>
<BR>
All the meat is soaked in some form of oil derived from the fat of sea-life.<BR>
<BR>
Anything you can pronounce and heard of will give you the trots if you eat<BR>
it. Anything you can't pronounce, you don't want to try, cause just the<BR>
smell alone will give you the runs. Unless you're a local.<BR>
<BR>
All the megacorps got their start as either foreign megacorps or aboriginal<BR>
land-grant-mmanagement corporations.<BR>
<BR>
Everyone cheers when fuel prices rise, cause it means the Sector Government<BR>
will be raising the dividend paid to all residents.<BR>
<BR>
Frontier refuelling is the norm, not the exception.<BR>
<BR>
The aboriginals own all the fueling rights to all the gas giants.<BR>
<BR>
The rest of the Imperium has never heard of your home sector... except for<BR>
imperial officials, who want to control all the natural resources in your<BR>
home sector.<BR>
<BR>
Your home sector has 4 times as many inhabited worlds as any other, but<BR>
less population than Reft Sector.<BR>
<BR>
Your home sector is assumed to belong to a 13 system client-state.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:48:44 -0000<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: sheep <BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca [mailto:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca]<BR>
> Sent: 17 February 2000 3:45<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: sheep <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ...<BR>
> >>If you drop a sheep off a building, and it hits the ground <BR>
> with a splat, all<BR>
> >>you have proven is that that particular sheep, on that <BR>
> occasion, either did <BR>
> >>not fly or _chose not to_. Frankly, I think they can fly <BR>
> and are all sworn to<BR>
> >>keep it a secret. <BR>
> ><BR>
> >  And now this thought is immortalised on the Web.<BR>
> >The author must be sheepish<BR>
> <BR>
>   I'm not responsible for this turn of events...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I thought ewe were.... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:02:10 +0000<BR>
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk<BR>
Subject: Re: Magazine indexes<BR>
<BR>
At 17:05 -0500 7/2/00, "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com> wrote:<BR>
>>(Journal of the Senseless Carnage Society, etc.). You'd need to contact<BR>
Jae<BR>
>>regarding copies of Signal-GK (he is on the TML), but I'd be willing to<BR>
>>make copies of the other material for whoever wrote the original post<BR>
above<BR>
>>in about two weeks time if you'll contact me at: timmon@primenet.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote (on the 7th):<BR>
<BR>
>Tim Collinson's volume 2 of the Traveller Bibliography is intended to<BR>
>include magazines IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yes and no.<BR>
<BR>
Volume 2 is going to cover the 'big 5' periodicals  (I was taught at<BR>
library school that 'magazines' are where you keep armaments!!).  JTAS,<BR>
Challenge, MTJ, Travellers' Digest and Traveller Chronicle.  Hopefully it<BR>
should be out soonish - the manuscript is with BITS at present.<BR>
<BR>
Volume 3 is the one that hopes to cover 'everything else' (such as the<BR>
material Paul mentions).  However, this is a year or three off yet!  (I've<BR>
got much of the material but haven't started work on it yet.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
tc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:19:02 -0000<BR>
From: "Peter  Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
In the Uk in many places it is still required for yeoman to practise archery<BR>
on a Saturday.  Here in Leicester it is the local Catholic churches duty to<BR>
oversee this training, so a friend of mine went to the main catholic church<BR>
on Saturday and asked for his archery practise.  Instant answer was the<BR>
address of the local archery club which trains every Saturday and the phone<BR>
number of the main instructor along with a letter giving him permission to<BR>
practise free every Saturday at the club.  He gets free membership<BR>
(Sponsored by the church) but has to sign an agreement to be prepared to<BR>
serve up to 30days on call to the Church as required if the French<BR>
Invade!!!.  His only expense is the hire of the bow and any arrows he<BR>
breaks.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav : Weird old rules like this that the PC's can use to gain some<BR>
unusual low Tech skills on Hi-Tech worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so  zh+<BR>
vi-<BR>
      And life is harsh and rarely fair.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the<BR>
shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser<BR>
gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to<BR>
die."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1937<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1938</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 17 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1938<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
Re: Re Archival Copying<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
Re: Re ST [ot]<BR>
Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:51:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: driving and licences and oh my...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Except that you'd be *amazed* at the number of businesses and agencies<BR>
>> that have "drivers license" rather than "drivers license or DMV ID<BR>
>> card" written into policies on ID.<BR>
><BR>
> A local pub where several of my friends work instituted this policy in order<BR>
> to fufill the racist tendencies of the owner. You see, the idea is that<BR>
> since the local african-american population is of a lower social economic<BR>
> status than the majority of the caucasian clientel, less of them drive, and<BR>
> therefore less of them have valid driver's licenses. By asking people at the<BR>
> door to have a valid driver's license, he figures he can prevent such<BR>
> individuals from coming into his establishment.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, this has the added "benefit" of keeping the "bums and white<BR>
> trash" out too (his words).<BR>
><BR>
> Some people are just pigs.<BR>
<BR>
Check with your local DMV. In at least some states, if you accept a<BR>
license from the state DMV as ID, you are *required* to also accept the<BR>
ID cards they issue. You don't get to pick and choose.<BR>
<BR>
If you are in such a state, the odds are that the local DMV will be<BR>
*delighted* to have a chat with the owner of the pub about his<BR>
policies. For that matter, the state agency that issues liquor licenses<BR>
may have something to say. Quite often *they* set the allowable ID. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:57:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Archival Copying<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Sort of like what we did at one place I worked. We'd buy X copies of a<BR>
>>package, which didn't have LAN user limiting built in. We'd install one<BR>
>>copy on the LAN and use various tools so that no more than X users<BR>
>>could access the executables at the same time.<BR>
>><BR>
>>There were a few programs that were *so* braindead/LAN unfriendly, that<BR>
>>we actually *did* have to install seperate copies in seperate<BR>
>>directories. *And* rig things so only one user at a time could access<BR>
>>them (which was actually easier than allowing a limited number of<BR>
>>users).<BR>
><BR>
> Interesting. When I was a lan admin, had no such problem... all our<BR>
> liscences were for 10+, and we had 8 machines and 5 employees...<BR>
<BR>
We had *hundreds* of users. At the time, Netware only supported a max<BR>
of 255 users. I had to write a utility to terminate "connected but not<BR>
logged in" connections during peak usage...<BR>
<BR>
We had two PC based servers running Netware, a Vax running VMS and<BR>
Netware for VMS, and an SNA gateway between the IBM mainframe and the<BR>
Vax.<BR>
<BR>
> Then again, a local court decision said "No shrink wrap liscence can<BR>
> prevent you from installing the software on as many machines as you want<BR>
> to, and leaving it there. If they can prove you used it on multiple<BR>
> machines simultaneously, then they can sue. Case overturned."<BR>
<BR>
Which isn't at all hard to do...<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav: software piracy is probably a major issue. I expect intracate<BR>
> dongles, extensive checking of variables on the hardware and software. All<BR>
> kinds of schemes. Primarily because each world may have different laws, and<BR>
> starships' computers are obviously a standardized medium. Oh, the joys. Not<BR>
> to mention the possibilities of stolen backups, missing originals, manual<BR>
> reference checks, and the like.<BR>
<BR>
I expect that at some time in the future, crackers will be *such* a<BR>
nuisance that we'll either see secure encryption, so you can determine<BR>
thatr the software hasn't been altered at the same time that the<BR>
software is verifying that you have a valid license. Or we'll see the<BR>
return of software on read-only cartridges. Or both.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, either one makes the Virus next to impossible. Pity. <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:07:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>>At 11:52 PM -0800 2/15/2000, Evyn MacDude wrote:<BR>
>>>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>>Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
>>>> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh water.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>What!?!  No state mantory excution table to strap them down to for<BR>
> injection.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I know lobsters look like big bugs, but I bet the reaction would have been<BR>
> different had they outlawed boiling cats alive...<BR>
><BR>
> Possibly because lobsters AREN'T cats.  Duh.  Cats are carnivores, don't<BR>
> taste good, and unlike dogs, are not considered an acceptable food source in<BR>
> times other than famine by even those cultures that are notorious for their<BR>
> openmindedness about food.  There wouldn't need to be a law against boiling<BR>
> them alive because there is no good reason to do it.<BR>
><BR>
> Most crustaceans and shellfish taste best if boiled as soon as possible<BR>
> after they are killed and the best way to do this is to drop them into<BR>
> boiling water.  If you are truly concerned about it get them drunk on rice<BR>
> wine first.  (yum!)<BR>
><BR>
> This isn't true of warm blooded animals, even those that we do normally eat.<BR>
><BR>
> The nervous system of a crustacean is also not as similar to our own as that<BR>
> of a warm blooded animal.<BR>
<BR>
For that matter, I know that amphibians (such as frogs) won't notice<BR>
anything wrong if you *gradually* raise the temp of the water they are<BR>
in. They'll peacefully go into heat stroke (which isn't that<BR>
uncomfortable!) before the water hits boiling. I expect the same is<BR>
true molluscs and crustaceans. <BR>
<BR>
For that matter, I'd be surprised if their nervous system had any<BR>
sensors *capable* of feeling heat. So it's unlikely that they'd<BR>
perceive heat *or* pain when dumped into boiling water. It's not<BR>
something that evolution would include, because the lack has no effect<BR>
on their survival. <BR>
<BR>
*Land* animals, who may run into fire or the aftermath of a fire need<BR>
to have nervous systems that make them go "ouch" when in contact with<BR>
hot materials.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:18:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/16/00 00:59:36 Pacific Standard Time, Leonard Erickson <BR>
> writes:<BR>
><BR>
> <<  In mail you write:<BR>
>  <BR>
>  ><BR>
>  >> <Scene of curly-haired poppet in Impie Marine Combat<BR>
>  >> Armor dancing>..."On the gooood ship, Kinuinir, ..."<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > Ditzie Spofulum, the Shirley Temple of the Imperium<BR>
>  <BR>
>  You'd better *pray* that either no Shirley Temple films survive to<BR>
>  Ditzie's time, or that she's weird enough to *like* the little brat...<BR>
>  Otherwise you are dead meat.<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> Eh? Not catching reference re: Ditzie Spofulum. Explain, please?<BR>
<BR>
You'll need to read the archives. But basicly, she's a *very* odd<BR>
little girl who just happens to be chief weapons designer for Familie<BR>
Spofulam. And she's been known to use "annoying" people (like the ones<BR>
from the legal dept who keep telling her "you can't do that") as<BR>
practice targets. <BR>
<BR>
Think of a cross between Tim Taylor in full "more power" Toolman mode,<BR>
Dennis the Menace por Calvin (of Calvin and Hobbes), and a mad<BR>
scientist. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:31:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Jtas copyright<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]<BR>
><BR>
>> That's what the Ministry of Housinge wants you to think.  These<BR>
>> are actually cat detector vans.  <BR>
><BR>
> Looney detector vans, you mean.<BR>
><BR>
>> They will later be used to find<BR>
>> unlicensed Aslan in the Solomani Confederation.<BR>
><BR>
> You mean big piles of kitty litter don't attract them?<BR>
><BR>
> Really, how difficult would it be to spoof the detector vans?  A quick trip<BR>
> to Radio Shack, a few friends, and some time might be fun...<BR>
<BR>
Anything that would "spoof" them would be *certain* to meet the legal<BR>
description of "unlicensed radio transmitter". And if British law is<BR>
anything like US law on this, you could wind up facing a 10k fine *and*<BR>
substantial jail time if they choose to make an issue of it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:36:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: some pigs are more equal than others...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:09 PM 2/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>> Article IV, Section 1: "Full faith and credit shall be given in each<BR>
>>>state to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every<BR>
>>>other state."<BR>
>><BR>
>>Routinely ignored on a daily basis...email me directly for an example.<BR>
>>That's a TML rathole...<BR>
><BR>
> This clause is what terrifies that anti-gay marriage crowd.. all it takes<BR>
> is *one* state to legalize gay marriages, and guess what. You'll have 49<BR>
> test cases before you can say Constitutional precedent.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why Congress passed that absurd "Defense of Marriage Act". It<BR>
specificly states that other states do *not* have to honor gay<BR>
marriages. Having looked at the appropriate section of the<BR>
Constitution, I don't see it surviving a determined court challenge.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:41:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ALERT! This post has the capability to be seen as personal attacks on<BR>
> several people. There are some serious comments buried in it, but I<BR>
> think I disguised as ObTrav...  ;-)<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
> All the spaceships have names starting with USS.<BR>
><BR>
> The Sunburst is replaced by the stars and stripes. (Douglas E. Berry)<BR>
><BR>
> Fighter pilots and Marines are the only true heroes of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Unless you are part of the *large* "minority" who see military<BR>
personnel as babykilling warmongers.<BR>
<BR>
> No one is ever oppressed on Imperial worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Again, there's that large minority that thinks the Imperium *is* the<BR>
biggest opressor around.<BR>
<BR>
> Everyone is oppressed on non-Imperial worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Large minority thinks these folks are happy, and the Imperium is being<BR>
imperialistic in trying to gain more members.<BR>
<BR>
> The Zhodani are communists.<BR>
><BR>
> Corporations are founded by a single person's hard work.<BR>
<BR>
Corporations are *evil* (belief of *majority*)<BR>
<BR>
> It is every person's constitutional right to land several tons of free<BR>
> trader in any starport, even those in the middle of cities.<BR>
<BR>
> Mostly everyone speak English. Aliens speak bad accents of English.<BR>
> Zhodani speak either Russian or German.<BR>
><BR>
> Corporations are generally not evil. If they are, they are corrupted by<BR>
> spies from another race of culture.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, that does it, without even *looking*, I can tell the poster is<BR>
*not* from the US. <BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but the majority in the US seems to be *certain* that all<BR>
corporations would do *anything* to make a buck, no matter that the<BR>
owners would be hurt just as much as everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
> An independent merchant is considered a hard-working, impressive person,<BR>
> not a sneaky bastard who would sell his own parents if given half a<BR>
> chance.<BR>
<BR>
> Worlds are always happy to be brought into the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
See above.<BR>
<BR>
> The Imperium never targets civilians in armed conflicts, although all<BR>
> other factions do.<BR>
<BR>
> /Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
Jens, (and other non-US TML members) the stuff I added above *is* the<BR>
way folks in the US feel or at least large blocks of them. I don't<BR>
necessarily agree, but if your news is making it seem otherwise, then<BR>
it's just as bad as ours.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:51:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>    "The designers would like to acknowledge this game's debt to all of<BR>
> the battling autos of science fiction and spy literature. If you like this<BR>
> game, you ought to look at Harlan Ellison's "Along the Scenic Route,"<BR>
> Alan Dean Foster's "Why Johnny Can't Speed" (source of the "Drive<BR>
> Offensively" motto), Roger Zelazny's "Damnation Alley, "Devil Car,"<BR>
> and "Last of the Wild Ones," the films "Duel," "Mad Max," and<BR>
> "Death race 2000," and every James Bond movie ever made."<BR>
><BR>
> So it looks like SJG covered themselves on sources.<BR>
><BR>
> I might add that if you like any of the works they cite you will probably<BR>
> enjoy the game. I do. It's a wonderfull way to kill a 15 minutes.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm furiously looking for an OBTrav. Perhaps a TL6-9 world has legalized<BR>
> autodueling (or merely doesn't have the resources to stop it from hapening.)<BR>
> OK it's a stretch but YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
We postulated a world being re-contacted after the Long Night. Their<BR>
history was similar to the one given in Car Wars. So they were<BR>
recovering, and then got limited interstellar contact. Naturally the<BR>
place is an Amber Zone.<BR>
<BR>
Then we pictured someone managing to buy a PGMP-15 to mount in his<BR>
trunk. Not only does it fry the tailgater, but it melts the road for a<BR>
hundred yards, getting everyone following you stucking in the melted<BR>
asphalt. <BR>
<BR>
On concrete surfaced roads (like old Interstates) the red-hot surface<BR>
melts the tires.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:57:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re ST [ot]<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/15/00 10:33:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << So you get what amounts to a burrito, enchilida, tamale, pocket<BR>
>  sandwhich, whatever... only the "wrapper" of "bread" is one solid<BR>
>  piece. Neater, less mess, and something we could almost do now. <BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> It's called a "hot pocket"....:-) (a frozen food snack that consists of <BR>
> solid <BR>
> dough wrapper surrounding the goodies inside). I love'em; pop 'em in the <BR>
> nuke, and there's no mess to clean up...<BR>
<BR>
True enough. Though I *did* mention hot pockets farther down. <BR>
<BR>
There's a reference in one of Niven's books (Protector?) where someone<BR>
using the autochef in an *old* singleship is suprised when the<BR>
"handmeal" he'd requested actually comes apart into seperate pieces.<BR>
(handmeal = sandwich)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:27:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> You'll need to read the archives. But basicly, she's a *very* odd<BR>
> little girl who just happens to be chief weapons designer for Familie<BR>
> Spofulam. And she's been known to use "annoying" people (like the ones<BR>
> from the legal dept who keep telling her "you can't do that") as<BR>
> practice targets.<BR>
> <BR>
I now also wonder if there are any corporate or family descendants of the<BR>
Binford Corporation (ToolTime's sponsors) in Ditzie's heritage. :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 03:34:14 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
Concerning laws regulating driving,<BR>
Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>But you still have the right to travel! ...<BR>
<BR>
No, you don't.  When you accept a drivers license, you<BR>
exchange your right to travel for a state licensed privilege.<BR>
The privilege you accept in exchange for that right is<BR>
regulated by the same state that licenses it.  It can be<BR>
regulated or canceled at the whim of the state.<BR>
<BR>
>... You don't (I hope, as that<BR>
>would cause hundreds of kids to be on the road) have a constitutional<BR>
>right to drive a vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
Let's look at that without the parenthetical statement:  "You<BR>
don't have a constitutional right to drive a vehicle."<BR>
<BR>
This is correct.  Driving is legally defined as a commercial<BR>
activity.  The constitution reserves the right to regulate<BR>
commercial activity to the uS government.  Travelling is not a<BR>
commercial activity and is therefore not open to regulation.<BR>
<BR>
Now, let's look at the parenthetical statement:<BR>
"(I hope, as that would cause hundreds of kids to be on the<BR>
road)"<BR>
<BR>
This argument is fundamentally flawed in that children are not<BR>
citizens.  They are nationals.  While nationals enjoy the same<BR>
protections, they do not have the same rights.  This is no<BR>
different in America than it is anywhere else.<BR>
<BR>
>> > I agree, in most circumstances you can clearly demonstrate an<BR>
>> > obvious ability eg driving in a straight line, coming to a slow<BR>
>> > stop, straight forward steering, etc. But the license demonstrates<BR>
>> > you have achieve a measured, standardized competence in, among<BR>
>> > other things, emergency stops, awareness of other road users,<BR>
>> > rights of way etc...<BR>
>><BR>
>> The license demonstrates none of these things.<BR>
><BR>
>I don't know about US driving licenses, but driving licenses in<BR>
>Sweden (and Germany, Norway, England, probably more countries)<BR>
>are only given to people who demonstrate these abilities. If US<BR>
>driving licenses work in a radically different way, I am surprised.<BR>
>The whole purpose of a driving license is to prove that you are not<BR>
>a danger to yourself or others while driving.<BR>
<BR>
In America, we are innocent until found guilty.  We do not<BR>
have to prove our ability to travel safely because we are<BR>
assumed to be safe travellers until such time as we show<BR>
ourselves otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
>> Okay, make a big joke out of it.  Yes, I see your imoticons, so<BR>
>> I know this is an attempt at humor.  However, on a serious<BR>
>> note, my rights end where the other guys' begin, so if I were<BR>
>> to do the things you specify, I would be violating someone<BR>
>> else's rights and that is a crime.<BR>
><BR>
>That is the problem with driving without a license to do so. You<BR>
>have not proven that you are not a danger to others nearby.<BR>
>Therefore, you cannot be allowed to drive, since that might harm<BR>
>other people. This is true unless you mean to drive on a large,<BR>
>empty field, but that is hardly anyone's idea of useful driving.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the folks in Europe don't understand the principle<BR>
that I mentioned above.  If I harmed someone or damaged<BR>
their property, that would be a crime.<BR>
<BR>
>> I never said anything about fascism and you haven't shown<BR>
>> how the lack of a license (which is what I was talking about),<BR>
>> constitutes a source of danger.<BR>
><BR>
>A person who doesn't have a license might still be a great<BR>
>driver, but he/she hasn't proved it to anyone. Therefore,<BR>
>the state cannot allow that person to drive, since doing so<BR>
>*might* be dangerous to others.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know how things work in Europe, but in America, the<BR>
government does not have a responsibility to keep the<BR>
people from all possible harm.  In fact, our supreme court has<BR>
specifically ruled that the only responsibility the government<BR>
has is to punish those who commit crimes, not to prevent<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
>> No one has a _right_ to be a lawyer.  If you don't<BR>
>> believe me, ask Bloo.  Everyone has the right to study the<BR>
>> law* because everyone has a right to defend themselves*.<BR>
>> Again, if you don't believe me ask Bloo.<BR>
>><BR>
>>   * Applies in America, elsewhere, YMMV.<BR>
><BR>
>This "defend myself" logic is one of the things that non-Americans<BR>
>find strange. In Sweden you never have the right to kill someone.<BR>
>You might get away with killing someone who would otherwise clearly<BR>
>have killed you (or someone else), but probably not if another<BR>
>solution was available.<BR>
<BR>
Where did killing come into this?  I don't understand why you<BR>
would bring killing into this thread.  In America, no one has a<BR>
right to kill anyone either.  Your description of things in<BR>
Sweden is no different from the way things are here.  Maybe<BR>
I missed something.  Or maybe you have a misconception<BR>
about life in America.<BR>
<BR>
>Even in Sweden, everyone has the right to study anything<BR>
>they want.  Since the number of places in every given<BR>
>school/university/class etc is limited, the places<BR>
>generally go to those applicants with the best grades<BR>
>from the most recent education they had (three-year<BR>
>periods in general). If a person cannot afford to study<BR>
>(moving to another town might be too expensive, etc),<BR>
>the state steps in and funds that person.  This is a much<BR>
>more friendly system that that of the US, at least IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Again, I don't see the difference.  What you describe sounds<BR>
like the situation here.  When I went to university, the<BR>
government gave me grants that allowed me to go when I<BR>
could not have afforded to go on my own.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
>> > No one has a _right_ to be a lawyer.  If you don't<BR>
>> > believe me, ask Bloo.  Everyone has the right to study the<BR>
>> > law* because everyone has a right to defend themselves*.<BR>
>> > Again, if you don't believe me ask Bloo.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >   * Applies in America, elsewhere, YMMV.<BR>
>><BR>
>> This "defend myself" logic is one of the things that non-Americans<BR>
>> find strange. In Sweden you never have the right to kill someone.<BR>
>> You might get away with killing someone who would otherwise clearly<BR>
>> have killed you (or someone else), but probably not if another<BR>
>> solution was available.<BR>
><BR>
>While I find it strange that defense of life is not a valid legal<BR>
>reason to use deadly force in Sweden, what Jason is actually speaking<BR>
>of is that under the US legal system, we have the right to defend<BR>
>ourselves in a court of law, i.e.: act as our own attorney, address<BR>
>the court, cross-examine witnesses, etc. And, as the old saying goes,<BR>
>someone defending themselves generally has a fool for a client.<BR>
<BR>
There is a big difference between defending yourself in court<BR>
and acting as your own attorney in court.  Doing the former<BR>
gives you certain powers that an attorney does not have.<BR>
Doing the latter strips you of those same powers.<BR>
<BR>
I wonder if it might have been a lawyer to first used that old<BR>
saying?  I wouldn't be surprised.  There are many old sayings<BR>
that float around.  Just because they are floating around<BR>
doesn't make them true or valid.  While I respect most of<BR>
what I see Bruce post in this forum, he has shown one of the<BR>
problems with the current state of education in America<BR>
today.  This is not meant as a personal attack against Bruce,<BR>
for whom I have a great deal of respect, just a comment upon<BR>
how things are.<BR>
<BR>
>Which is why, without training, or with only a partial knowledge<BR>
>of the law, people are lead to the rather strange legal theories<BR>
>such as:  'Requiring a license to drive a vehicle on public<BR>
>roadways requires a license' equates to 'restricting the<BR>
>constitutional right to free travel'.<BR>
><BR>
>It ain't so, and never has been. All that that right means is<BR>
>the the state cannot restrict _where_ you may travel by legal<BR>
>means, not the means themselves. If the state regulates the<BR>
>legal means in such a fashion as to impinge on your right to<BR>
>travel, then it is unconstitutional.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it is.  What follows are a few legal citations that<BR>
speak to the subject.  Some of these items are slanted to<BR>
Californians, but I am currently in California, so that's where<BR>
I'm coming from.  These citations are not exhaustive and can<BR>
be used to find a good many others if you are in fact<BR>
interested in the truth of the matter.<BR>
<BR>
"The navigable waters leading into the Mississippi and St.<BR>
Lawrence, *and the carrying places between the same, shall<BR>
be common highways and forever free*, as well to the<BR>
inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United<BR>
States, and those of any other States that may be admitted<BR>
into the confederacy, without any tax, impost, or duty<BR>
therefore."<BR>
- --Northwest Ordinances, Article 4.<BR>
<BR>
"Highways are for the use of the traveling public, and all have<BR>
the right to use them in a reasonable and proper manner; the<BR>
use thereof is an inalienable right of every citizen."<BR>
- --Escobedo v. State 35 C2d 870 in 8 Cal Jur 3d p.27<BR>
<BR>
"Users of the highway for transportation of persons and<BR>
property for hire may be subjected to special regulations not<BR>
applicable to those using the highway for public purposes."<BR>
- --Richmond Baking Co. v. Department of Treasury 18 N.E.<BR>
2d 788.<BR>
<BR>
"Constitutionally protected liberty includes... the right to<BR>
travel..."<BR>
- --13 Cal Jur 3d p.416<BR>
<BR>
In California, a license is defined as "A permit, granted by<BR>
an appropriate governmental body, generally for a<BR>
consideration, to a person or firm, or corporation to pursue<BR>
some occupation or to carry on some business subject to<BR>
regulation under the police power."<BR>
- --Rosenblatt v. California 158 P2d 199, 300.<BR>
<BR>
"Operation of a motor vehicle upon public streets and<BR>
highways is not a mere privilege but is a right or liberty<BR>
protected by the guarantees of Federal and State<BR>
constitutions."<BR>
- --Adams v. City of Pocatello 416 P2d 46<BR>
<BR>
"A citizen may have the right, under the 14th amendment to<BR>
the Constitution of the United States, to travel and transport<BR>
his property upon the public highways by auto vehicle, but he<BR>
has no right to make the highways his place of business by<BR>
using them as a common carrier for hire; such use being a<BR>
privilege which may be granted or withheld by the state in its<BR>
discretion, without violating the due process or equal<BR>
protection clauses."<BR>
- --In Re Graham 93 Cal App 88.<BR>
<BR>
"The license charge imposed by the motor vehicle act is an<BR>
excise or privilege tax, established for the purpose of<BR>
revenue in order to provide a fund for roads while under the<BR>
dominion of the state authorities, it is not a tax imposed as a<BR>
rental charge or a toll charge for the use of the highways<BR>
owned and controlled by the state."<BR>
- --PG&E v. State Treasurer, 168 Cal 420.<BR>
<BR>
"The same principles of law are applicable to them as to<BR>
other vehicles upon the highway. It is therefore, the<BR>
adaptation and use, rather than the form or kind of<BR>
conveyance that concerns the courts."<BR>
- --Indiana Springs Co. v. Brown, 74 N.E. 615.<BR>
<BR>
"The automobile is not inherently dangerous."<BR>
- --Moore v. Roddie, 180 P. 879, Blair v. Broadmore 93 S.E. 632.<BR>
<BR>
"The use of the automobile as a necessary adjunct to the<BR>
earning of a livelihood in modern life requires us in the<BR>
interest of realism to conclude that the RIGHT to use an<BR>
automobile on the public highways partakes of the nature of<BR>
a liberty within the meaning of the Constitutional<BR>
guarantees..."<BR>
- --Berberian v. Lussier (1958) 139 A2d 869, 872<BR>
<BR>
"Truck driver's failure to be licensed as chauffeur does not<BR>
establish him or his employer as negligent as a matter of law<BR>
with respect to accident in which driver was involved, in<BR>
absence of any evidence that lack of such license had any<BR>
casual or causal connection with the accident."<BR>
- --Bryant v. Tulare Ice Co. (1954) 125 CA 2d 566<BR>
<BR>
"The RIGHT of the citizen to DRIVE on the public street with<BR>
freedom from police interference, unless he is engaged in<BR>
suspicious conduct associated in some manner with<BR>
criminality is a FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT<BR>
which must be protected by the courts."<BR>
- --People v. Horton 14 Cal. App. 3rd 667 (1971)<BR>
<BR>
"The RIGHT to TRAVEL on the public highways is a<BR>
constitutional right."<BR>
- --Teche Lines v. Danforth, Miss. 12 So 2d 784, 787.<BR>
<BR>
"The right to travel is part of the 'liberty' that a citizen cannot<BR>
be deprived without due process of law."<BR>
- --Kent v. Dulles 357 U.S. 116, U.S. v. Laub 385 U.S. 475<BR>
<BR>
"One who DRIVES an automobile is an operator within<BR>
meaning of the Motor Vehicle Act."<BR>
- --Pontius v. McClean 113 CA 452<BR>
<BR>
"The word 'operator' shall not include any person who solely<BR>
transports his own property and who transports no persons<BR>
or property for hire or compensation."<BR>
- --Statutes at Large California Chapter 412 p.833<BR>
<BR>
"The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and<BR>
to transport his property thereon, by horse-drawn carriage,<BR>
wagon, or automobile is not a mere privilege which may be<BR>
permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he<BR>
has under his right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of<BR>
happiness."<BR>
- --Slusher v. Safety Coach Transit Co., 229 Ky 731, 17<BR>
SW2d 1012, and affirmed by the Supreme Court in<BR>
Thompson v. Smith 154 S.E. 579.<BR>
<BR>
"CVC* 17459. The acceptance by a resident of this state of a<BR>
certificate of ownership or a certificate of registration of any<BR>
motor vehicle or any renewal thereof, issued under the<BR>
provisions of this code, shall constitute the CONSENT by the<BR>
person that service of summons may be made upon him<BR>
within or without this state, whether or not he is then a<BR>
resident of this state, in any action brought in the courts of<BR>
this state upon a cause of action arising in this state out of<BR>
the ownership or operation of the vehicle." California<BR>
Vehicle Code<BR>
<BR>
"CVC* 17460. The acceptance or retention by a resident of<BR>
this state of a driver's license issued pursuant to the<BR>
provisions of this code, shall constitute the CONSENT of the<BR>
person that service of summons may be made upon him<BR>
within or without this state, whether or not he is then a<BR>
resident of this state, in any action brought in the courts of<BR>
this state upon a cause of action arising in this state out of<BR>
his operation of a motor vehicle anywhere within this state."<BR>
<BR>
  * California Vehicle Code<BR>
<BR>
"When a person applies for and accepts a license or permit,<BR>
he in effect knows the limitations of it, and takes it at the risk<BR>
and consequences of transgression."<BR>
- --Shevlin-Carpenter Co. v Minnesota, 218 U.S. 57.<BR>
<BR>
>While you may disagree with the state's requirement for a<BR>
>drivers license, it is still a legally and constitutionally<BR>
>valid requirement for operating a motor vehicle on public<BR>
>roadways.<BR>
<BR>
You are correct and have missed my point entirely.<BR>
Operating a motor vehicle is a commercial activity and can<BR>
be regulated.  Travelling, by whatever means is not a<BR>
commercial activity and is therefore not subject to state<BR>
(or federal) regulation.<BR>
<BR>
>Note the careful distinction: _public_ roadways. If you own a<BR>
>private road, you may drive anything you want with or without<BR>
>a license. Were you to so wish, and had enough money to buy<BR>
>the requisite land, you could, in theory, build your own,<BR>
>private network of interstate highways, and drive your<BR>
>unlicensed self anywhere you wished, and the state, either in<BR>
>the form of the Federal or local state authority cannot<BR>
>prevent you from doing so.<BR>
<BR>
In the state of California, they have attempted to regulate<BR>
some vehicles even on private property.<BR>
<BR>
>(Though recent SC decisions regarding states rights might put<BR>
>a kink into that plan...they have ruled that the Constitution,<BR>
>and federal laws in particular do not necessarily apply to<BR>
>state governments. I don't remember the exact date, but the<BR>
>ruling involved workers compensation for state employees)<BR>
><BR>
>BUT the state has an obligation to provide for the safety of<BR>
>it's citizens; requiring testing and licensing of drivers is<BR>
>one means of doing so, and is no more unconstitutional than<BR>
>federal regulations on the trucking industry (weight, brakes,<BR>
>hours of operation, etc) are unconstitutional interference<BR>
>with interstate commerce. Which regulation, btw, the actual<BR>
>arbiters of constitutional law in the US (The Supreme Court)<BR>
>has upheld again and again.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the state has no such obligation.  The only<BR>
obligation they have is to punish those who harm others or<BR>
damage their property.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com> wrote:<BR>
>>>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>>> There is also no Constitutional right to free travel. It isn't in there,<BR>
>>> and I've looked several times. The closest thing you get is the 1st<BR>
>>> Amendment right to peaceably assemble.<BR>
>><BR>
>>See the 9th Amendment.<BR>
>>- --<BR>
>>Jason<BR>
><BR>
>"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be<BR>
>construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."<BR>
><BR>
>Pretty big stretch. That's like saying you have a constitutional right to<BR>
>wear plaid or date an ugly girl under the 9th Amendment. As a strict<BR>
>constructionist I'd have to take exception to that. I'm aware that other<BR>
>disagree with me and that proponents of judicial legislation often site the<BR>
>9th Amendment as support for their discovery of some new right that neither<BR>
>the Congress nor the people via constitutional convention have passed.<BR>
<BR>
While the wearing of plaid and dating of ugly girls are not<BR>
things I would say are protected under the 9th Amendment<BR>
*per se*,  I would say that the state has no right to make<BR>
regulations concerning what I do wear or whom I choose to<BR>
date, so in a sense, I guess that those rights are protected<BR>
under the 9th Amendment.<BR>
<BR>
The "Bill of Rights" does not confer any rights upon the<BR>
citizens of the uS, all of the rights are theirs, except for the<BR>
ones granted to the government by the people through the<BR>
constitution.  This is evident from the Preamble to the<BR>
constitution which says:<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
We the People of the united States, in Order to form a more<BR>
perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,<BR>
provide for the common defense, promote the general<BR>
Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves<BR>
and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution<BR>
for the United States of America.<BR>
<<<<<<<BR>
<BR>
This makes it clear where the power and the authority for the<BR>
constitution come from, the People of the united States.  In<BR>
and of itself, the Preamble does not confer any power on any<BR>
portion of the united States government, however, it does<BR>
offer evidence of the source, range and purpose of the<BR>
Constitution.<BR>
<BR>
The Supreme Court has read the preamble as bearing<BR>
witness to the fact that the Constitution emanated from the<BR>
people and was not the act of sovereign and independent<BR>
States.<BR>
<BR>
McCulloch v. Maryland 17 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316, 403 (1819)<BR>
http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=17&invol=3<BR>
16#403<BR>
<BR>
Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. (2 Dall.) 419, 471 (1793)<BR>
http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=2&invol=41<BR>
9#471<BR>
<BR>
Martin v. Hunter's Lessee, 14 U.S. (1 Wheat.) 304, 324 (1816)<BR>
http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=14&invol=3<BR>
04#324<BR>
<BR>
And that it was made for, and is binding only in, the United<BR>
States of America<BR>
Downes v. Bidwell, 182 U.S. 244, 251 (1901)<BR>
http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=182&invol=<BR>
244#251<BR>
<BR>
In re Ross, 140 U.S. 453, 464 (1891).<BR>
http://www.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=US&vol=140&invol=<BR>
453#464<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>  wrote:<BR>
>>I don't know about US driving licenses, but driving licenses in Sweden<BR>
>>(and Germany, Norway, England, probably more countries) are only given<BR>
>>to people who demonstrate these abilities. If US driving licenses work<BR>
>>in a radically different way, I am surprised. The whole purpose of a<BR>
>>driving license is to prove that you are not a danger to yourself or<BR>
>>others while driving.<BR>
><BR>
>ISTR from friends who visited the USA that the US 'Driving Test' at<BR>
>best consists of driving around a mock road. (Please correct me if<BR>
>wrong).<BR>
<BR>
Many people who live somewhere other than north America<BR>
seem to think that the united States is one country like<BR>
England or Sweden; however, it is really more like the<BR>
European Union.  Assuming I am using the correct term for<BR>
the new united Europe government.  Oklahoma and Kansas<BR>
share a boarder, but they are no more alike that Austria and<BR>
Germany.  So there is no such thing as a "US 'Driving Test'."<BR>
Each state sets its own standards and some states vary<BR>
somewhat even from city to city.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
>> In rural America, a large percentage of kids learn how to<BR>
>> drive in "large, empty fields" - driving tractors, cars and pickup<BR>
>> trucks on farms and ranches. Very useful driving, by the way.<BR>
><BR>
>These kinds of vehicles require a much simpler license available at an<BR>
>earlier age.<BR>
<BR>
Whereas here in America, in most jurisdictions, these kinds<BR>
of vehicles require no licenses provided you follow certain<BR>
safety rules, even under the current codes, leaving aside the<BR>
right to travel issue.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Okay, so this was a rather long post.  I hope that the legal<BR>
citations offered has cleared up some of the questions and<BR>
I really didn't intend to stir up a hornets nest with my "real<BR>
world example."<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller:  Well, I posted this as OT, so I guess that I don't<BR>
really have to offer an observation (or whatever Ob stands<BR>
for); however, you could have some fun with a similar legal<BR>
principle with your players if they are the types to dig into<BR>
such matters.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 17 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1939<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: A real world example <BR>
Unusual foods, was JTAS rights.<BR>
Higher Education in Traveller<BR>
Lobsters<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
RE: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
RE: on target<BR>
RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
RE: Essays for Newbies<BR>
Can someone scan in...<BR>
RE: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
RE: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Copyright FAQ<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
re: the complete story<BR>
RE: sheep <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 03:37:15 -0800<BR>
From: "Jason T. Barnabas" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example <BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> I've been a licensed driver for about 25 years, in three<BR>
> different states (at different times).  I have never taken a<BR>
> driving test.  I have taken written tests several times, and<BR>
> before I got my first license, I had an entire summer of<BR>
> driver's training, sponsored by the local school district.  (The<BR>
> states are Idaho, Utah, and California.)  I have not taken a<BR>
> written test in California since 1992, when I got my first<BR>
> license.  Because my driving record is good, the state just<BR>
> sends me a new license every four years.  (I think I'm required<BR>
> to do the written test again after the third such renewal.)<BR>
><BR>
> Written tests were all 70% correct to pass, if I recall<BR>
> correctly.<BR>
<BR>
I can confirm similar situations in Kansas, Oklahoma and<BR>
Florida.  The driving tests I took in Kansas and Oklahoma<BR>
took place on real city roads in Wichita and Tulsa.  Once you<BR>
get a license in Kansas and Texas, you never have to take<BR>
another test again, provided you renew within a month of<BR>
expiration.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jason<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:44:18 -0400<BR>
From: Les_Howie@keane.com<BR>
Subject: Unusual foods, was JTAS rights.<BR>
<BR>
Matt wrote:<BR>
>I wonder what penguin tastes like...<BR>
<BR>
I've not had penguin, but I have had ter, which is a kind of a mer; a northern<BR>
seabird.  Very heavy, black meat with a somewhat fishy aftertaste.  Somewhat<BR>
oily -- can't recommend it.<BR>
<BR>
OBTRAV<BR>
Patron: Gourmet tourist who travels from world to world, eating most obscure and<BR>
exotic dishes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 05:52:21 -0600<BR>
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net><BR>
Subject: Higher Education in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
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> Michael Hughes wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Do serving imperial military officers get to go back to university for<BR>
> doctorates and the like ?<BR>
> I know T4 CharGen had this facility. In Oz, some Staff College graduates get a<BR>
> courtesy Masters on Administration (Military), so I guess maybe that's where<BR>
> that could come in.<BR>
<BR>
Since EDU is a characteristic and formal education is indirectly built into the<BR>
system it serves little real purpose in pursuiting a higher education.<BR>
<BR>
In my game when a PC rolls and receives a skill unit he can immediately roll on<BR>
the predefined skills tables or he can apply his skill unit towards a semester<BR>
of college. After receiving four semesters he can then roll to graduate with a<BR>
+8 for a Masters and +10 for a Doctorate. If he fails this roll he can continue<BR>
to apply more skill units and reroll until he passes. With an advanced degree he<BR>
then picks up four academic skills of his choice and receives a +1 to SOC for a<BR>
Masters and +2 for a Doctorate.<BR>
<BR>
Alex Ingram<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><I>Michael Hughes wrote:</I></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><I>Do serving imperial military officers get to go<BR>
back to university for doctorates and the like ?<BR>
I know T4 CharGen had this facility. In Oz, some Staff College graduatesget a courtesy Masters on Administration (Military), so I guess maybe that'swhere that could come in.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>Since EDU is a characteristic and formal education is indirectly built into the system it serves little real purpose in pursuiting a higher education.<BR>
In my game when a PC rolls and receives a skill unit he can immediatelyroll on the predefined skills tables or he can apply his skill unit towards a semester of college. After receiving four semesters he can then roll to graduate with a +8 for a Masters and +10 for a Doctorate. If he fails this roll he can continue to apply more skill units and reroll until he passes. With an advanced degree he then picks up four academic skills of his choice and receives a +1 to SOC for a Masters and +2 for a Doctorate.<BR>
Alex Ingram<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
- --------------9CC3ADE1615FC70D012521E2--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:52:49 -0400<BR>
From: Les_Howie@keane.com<BR>
Subject: Lobsters<BR>
<BR>
Delos wrote:<BR>
>Now that I think about it, I will use something like it in my game as a<BR>
>'native' delicacy.<BR>
<BR>
How about as a species?<BR>
<BR>
No, I cannot have shared accomidations with my assistant!  We don't talk about<BR>
it with outsiders, by I am coming into my molt AND I NEED MY OWN CABIN!!!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:05:33 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
:) I just have a scarey visual flashback to the SF games my nephew refs.<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> >>If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
> >>"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Your Traveller Universe is Too Japanese (or your ref has watched too much<BR>
> anime, though this is based half on anime and half on the way Japanese<BR>
> businesses seem to operate)  When:<BR>
> <BR>
> You have both baths AND showers and crew is expected to use both at least<BR>
> once per day;<BR>
> <BR>
> Carousing is a required skill and increases by one level with each<BR>
> promotion;<BR>
> <BR>
> Rules are strict and strongly enforced, but being drunk is a legitimate<BR>
> excuse for almost any misbehavior;<BR>
> <BR>
> Female characters in uniform are considered the hottest babes available and<BR>
> regulation white panties are part of the uniform;<BR>
> <BR>
> All crews must have at least one female character who will be available at<BR>
> all times to serve tea and say "Welcome" and "Thank you very much" to any<BR>
> patrons as they enter and leave the ship;<BR>
> <BR>
> Character generation begins at age 13 (can be 10 or 11 for girls) and high<BR>
> school students are routinely recruited for Imperium-saving missions;<BR>
> <BR>
> There are no shinobi (ninjas) but they keep recruiting those nice, polite<BR>
> and really quiet people from out in the countryside for reconnaissance and<BR>
> intelligence missions;<BR>
> <BR>
> Those with social status of 8+ routinely have "Blade Combat" and "Golf"<BR>
> skills;<BR>
> <BR>
> Disputes may be settled by karaoke or poetry competition if everyone is<BR>
> drunk enough;<BR>
> <BR>
> At least one member of the crew or team is gay, with long flowing hair and a<BR>
> really bad temper (probably because usually ONLY one member of the team is<BR>
> gay);<BR>
> <BR>
> Mitsubishi makes everything, including Battle Dress (in Japan, Mitsubishi<BR>
> really does make almost everything... refrigerators, even!);<BR>
> <BR>
> Mitsubishi Battle Dress has gravjets and allows the wearer to jump from the<BR>
> surface of planets to the ship of which he or she is a crew;<BR>
> <BR>
> Mitsubishi Battle Dress for females sometimes comes in the form of a<BR>
> candy-colored abbreviated school or service uniform with a fluttery short<BR>
> skirt and regulation white panties, and the weapons portion looks like a<BR>
> candy fairy princess wand.  Extra points for big, loose socks.  =)<BR>
> <BR>
> Kiri  =)<BR>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
> tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
> <BR>
> "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
> sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
> and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
> impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
>                                 -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 03:29:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
><BR>
>>If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
>>"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
><BR>
> If I may be so bold:<BR>
><BR>
> Your Traveller Universe is Too Finnish when:<BR>
><BR>
> -you assign 2dtons of sauna space for every eight persons aboard<BR>
> a ship<BR>
<BR>
And fusion powered saunas in most dwellings? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 03:37:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> They know that people are prejudiced against the Chinese and that the habit<BR>
> of buying live animals seems "primitive" to the white, middle-class<BR>
> city-dwelling yupsters who make up the majority of their movement.  (I have<BR>
> never known an animal rights activist who was actually raised on a farm.<BR>
> People who spend a lot of time around chickens and cows rarely wax romantic<BR>
> about them.)  So they go all out against the people in Chinatown because<BR>
> they know that these are immigrants whose practices seem strange to others,<BR>
> despite the fact that if you are really concerned about cruelty to animals,<BR>
> the practices of the factory farming industry are far worse.<BR>
<BR>
And you'll note that they aren't all vegetarian either...<BR>
<BR>
I've lived on a farm. I *know*, from intimate, personal experience<BR>
*exactly* where meat comes from and how it is obtained. <BR>
<BR>
> They also have a habit of physically assaulting wealthy women in furs.<BR>
> Class hatred causes many people to applaud the drenching of wealthy ladies<BR>
> in paint despite the fact that legally this is assault and battery,<BR>
> vandalism, etc.  It is to be noted that they never do this to bikers clad<BR>
> from head to foot in leather.  I wonder why.<BR>
<BR>
Because then *they* would be beaten to a pulp.<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, don't even get me started.  Having worked in large fancy department<BR>
> stores and then having worked in laboratories for the last 5 years has<BR>
> confirmed everything I ever believed about PeTA and the like.  Just be aware<BR>
> that anyone who ever splashed paint on me would be made to wish they had<BR>
> never been born by my lawyers.<BR>
<BR>
If you haven't read it, there's a Mercedes Lackey short story you'd<BR>
love. It deals with some typical "animal rights" types that try to free<BR>
some "cloned" dinosaurs. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:50:50 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
> >"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
> <BR>
> If I may be so bold:<BR>
> <BR>
> Your Traveller Universe is Too Finnish when:<BR>
> <BR>
[snip]<BR>
> <BR>
> -Carousing always involves vodka, beer, and little open-faced<BR>
> sandwiches<BR>
<BR>
...especially on the ferry trip to/from Estonia with the duty-free<BR>
booze...<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:04:07 -0000<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com [mailto:shadow@krypton.rain.com]<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> > Everyone is oppressed on non-Imperial worlds.<BR>
> <BR>
> Large minority thinks these folks are happy, and the Imperium is being<BR>
> imperialistic in trying to gain more members.<BR>
<BR>
An Imperium being Imperialistic...<BR>
<BR>
Well, it would be, wouldn't it <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:05:23 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-02-15 18:02:53 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< If you refuse to learn to drive (like one of my Philosophy profs<BR>
<BR>
I have no driver's license -- I hate to drive. I am amazed how many people <BR>
consider this evidence of diminished mental capacity. I am flabberagasted how <BR>
many sales clerks refuse to take a _passport_ as ID until you call the <BR>
manager over (and I have run into one manager who refused to recognize a <BR>
passport as an indentity document -- this despite the small print in their <BR>
operations manual that makes no mention of "driver's license" but says <BR>
"government-issued photo identity document").<BR>
<BR>
<< the state organization that issues drivers licenses will issue an <BR>
Identification Card that looks just like the state issued drivers license <BR>
except for the verbiage about being qualified to operate motor vehicles. >><BR>
<BR>
Most states do this, I think. I haven't bothered to get one from Texas yet.<BR>
<BR>
LKW <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:33:23 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: on target<BR>
<BR>
Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
> >The Zhodani are communists.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is actually true to the Cold War Traveller was modelling <BR>
> the 70's. The Zhodani represented the Soviet Union.<BR>
> <BR>
> I guess that makes their Vargr allies Cubans... :-)<BR>
<BR>
I always thought (past tense) of the Vargr Extents as the  Middle<BR>
East:  Many different states  and  factions,  some  pro-Imperial,<BR>
some  anti-Imperial,  some  appearing  schizophrenic  (from   the<BR>
Imperial perspective).<BR>
<BR>
However, I can also see the Vargr Extents representing the  whole<BR>
Central American region (not just Cuba):  Political  instability,<BR>
many Vargr living in the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:59:38 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote:<BR>
> > A friend of mine's neigbour had a cat that kept crapping on his<BR>
> > lawn, so he shot it with a airpistol, and because of an argument<BR>
> > with his mum over what he'd be cooking for dinner that night he<BR>
> > chopped up the cat and stewed it.<BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
> You should hang the meat for at least 24 hours, or it'll <BR>
> be tougher than a boot.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently, one of the ways to cook dog starts with breaking  the<BR>
animals limbs and then hanging it up by the broken  limbs  for  a<BR>
while *before* killing it.  An  animal  in  this  state  releases<BR>
large amounts of adrenaline which tenderises the meat.  So if the<BR>
cat in the story didn't die right away  maybe  something  similar<BR>
happened here.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:03:25 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Essays for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
> Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> > John Littleton wrote:<BR>
> > > BTW, this is my first post to the TML, so let me know if I<BR>
> > > have violated TML etiquette in any way.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Of course, mentioning that this is your first post is itself an<BR>
> > enormous breach of TML etiquette.  To atone, please write a<BR>
> > medium length essay on why piracy cannot exist in the Imperium.<BR>
> <BR>
> Followed by another medium length essay on why piracy *must* <BR>
> exist in the Imperium.... <g><BR>
<BR>
... when practiced by Aslan in comfortable shoes ...<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:01:18 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Can someone scan in...<BR>
<BR>
Hi everybody!<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone scan in the dot-maps and mainworld pages<BR>
from DGP's Vilani & Vargr, Solomani & Aslan "Alien<BR>
Races" books?<BR>
<BR>
AND, while I'm asking, can anyone scan and send the<BR>
area starmap from page 6 of the Flaming Eye campaign?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks much... <BR>
<BR>
And now, back to female Aslan pirates in comfortable <BR>
shoes cruising at near-C on Virus-infected asteroids<BR>
with TL15 sentient Imperial computers, armed with <BR>
1-dton jump-capable torpedoes.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:11:15 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: I feel your (lobster) pain<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> Could a human with psionic empathy tell whether a lobster was<BR>
> suffering? or maybe telepathy, but I think that the lobster's<BR>
> brain is not going to be very communicative at the best of<BR>
> times.<BR>
> <BR>
> Do the Zhodani ever decide to stop eating something because it<BR>
> suffers so much when being killed, and at least some Zhodani can<BR>
> feel its pain?<BR>
<BR>
This reminds me of a scene  in  Snarfquest  (remember  that?):  A<BR>
mis-directed magic spell gave the blood-sucking leech the ability<BR>
to understand all living things.  Suddenly  the  leech  found  he<BR>
couldn't eat any animal 'cos when he tried he'd hear its cries of<BR>
terror and dispair.  So he grabed an apple of a tree instead  ...<BR>
only to hear the apple cry for help.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:21:57 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Scout Harris wrote:<BR>
> Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
> > Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > > First take on casting the Fifth Frontier War movie:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > So who will play Ditzie? :) :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh wow.... "Fith Frontier War....The Musical"<BR>
> <BR>
> With teams of tap dancing Zhodani in Harem scenes, Aslan love <BR>
> songs .... wow!<BR>
<BR>
I guess that means it'll have to be a Mel Brooks film ... combine<BR>
Blazing Saddles with Hitler in Springtime.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:28:48 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Scout Harris wrote:<BR>
> Oh wow.... "Fith Frontier War....The Musical"<BR>
> <BR>
> With teams of tap dancing Zhodani in Harem scenes, Aslan love songs<BR>
> .... wow!<BR>
<BR>
Or rather... meow!<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:02:01 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Copyright FAQ<BR>
<BR>
Gentles,<BR>
<BR>
Here's Steve Jackson's response to the questions and concerns expressed<BR>
over JTAS and copyrights. I'm going to try to get this made a part of the<BR>
freebie section of JTAS, so people can read it before subscribing.<BR>
<BR>
******************************************<BR>
<BR>
Q. What's this about SJ Games owning all our posts on the discussion areas?<BR>
<BR>
A. From the subscriber agreement:<BR>
<BR>
          <I>Ownership of Materials<BR>
<BR>
          By posting any item to the Pyramid message areas, you grant your<BR>
permission for<BR>
          Steve Jackson Games to archive it permanently, and allow public<BR>
or private<BR>
          access to it, as we see fit. By maintaining these discussion<BR>
areas, we acquire a<BR>
          "compilation copyright" on their contents. If you make a<BR>
suggestion here, you may<BR>
          not later deny SJ Games, or its customers, the right to use that<BR>
suggestion!<BR>
<BR>
          Any posting not carrying an explicit copyright notice is also<BR>
assumed to be a<BR>
          contribution to Steve Jackson Games, for any use the company sees<BR>
fit, including<BR>
          later publication in whole or in part under the SJ Games copyright.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
That policy is not there to protect you, the reader. It's there to protect<BR>
Steve Jackson Games, Marc Miller,  And our authors, and the policy itself<BR>
explains why:<BR>
<BR>
>If you make a suggestion here, you may not<BR>
>later deny SJ Games, or its customers, the right to use that suggestion!<BR>
<BR>
There are people out there who are greedy or self-absorbed enough to do<BR>
just exactly that. If someone posts "Hey, in my campaign it's the Sixth<BR>
Frontier War," we don't want to have to scrap our plans to do a Sixth<BR>
Frontier War. We don't even want to have to explain to him that the idea<BR>
has been around forever. (Don't laugh. The lawsuit that helped end Game<BR>
Designers' Workshop was similar, and about that flimsy.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Q. So if I write a whole article, or a whole book, and post it on the<BR>
discussion area, you could just reprint it?<BR>
<BR>
A. Yes. Exactly. _SO DON"T DO THAT, OK?_  Just like you don't leave the<BR>
keys in your Maserati. Now, if we like it enough to print it, we would want<BR>
your goodwill so you would write MORE for us, so we'd be idiots to take<BR>
advantage of you. But, still, if you feel that you HAVE to post something<BR>
and you're afraid someone, anyone, will take it, put a copyright notice in<BR>
your .sig file for everything you send everywhere.<BR>
<BR>
Q. Well, why do YOU claim a copyright on it?<BR>
<BR>
A. The law gives us a compilation copyright on the discussion areas; that's<BR>
part of what happens when you host a written discussion. Our policy is just<BR>
to make sure everyone KNOWS this. The compilation copyright gives us legal<BR>
protection against people who try to copy the message areas to other sites<BR>
on the net.<BR>
<BR>
It does NOT prevent you from re-using your OWN words or ideas, though. You<BR>
can re-post your OWN comments elsewhere, put them on your web site, work<BR>
them into an article or a book . . .<BR>
<BR>
Q. But I want to share my ideas without getting ripped off.<BR>
<BR>
A. If that means "Anybody is free to use my ideas as long as they don't<BR>
make any money . . . " then please write it up as an article, submit it,<BR>
and make money! We want contributors. You don't have to believe in the<BR>
goodness of human nature. Just believe that if we like somebody's work,<BR>
it's better business for us to keep him happy and buy a dozen articles (and<BR>
maybe eventually whole books) from him than it is to rip him off once, even<BR>
if it's a "legal" ripoff.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody can have ideas. Ideas are cheap. Good, clear writing is precious,<BR>
and we are always looking for people who can do that for us. For money.<BR>
<BR>
******************************************<BR>
<BR>
Adding my 2 cents:  Maybe I'm being overly dense here, but what is it about<BR>
simply adding a "copyright 2000, <myname>" to your JTAS sig that is causing<BR>
the trouble? Unless I am grossly misinformed, this doesn't have any effect<BR>
on your sig block for anything else (and you need not do it for anything<BR>
else).<BR>
<BR>
I think I may have started this by a response to the TMLer who said the<BR>
policy would make him hesitant to submit _articles_ to JTAS. I can<BR>
understand (sort of) why someone might not want to post the text of their<BR>
novel to the JTAS discussions. But I don't unerstand why that would make<BR>
someone hinky about selling us an article. Maybe I'm just dense?  :  )<BR>
<BR>
By my response, I meant to clarify that JTAS pays for articles and in<BR>
return or this payment receives certain intellectual property rights to<BR>
those articles.<BR>
<BR>
If someone still has a question about JTAS -- anything abot JTAS -- e-mail<BR>
me privately, and I'll do my best to answer it without cluttering the TML.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager<BR>
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society<BR>
          http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     LKW@IO.COM<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:05:22 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
><BR>
> I guess that means it'll have to be a Mel Brooks film ... combine<BR>
> Blazing Saddles with Hitler in Springtime.<BR>
<BR>
"The Sherrif's a <Bo--vargr!--ng>"<BR>
<BR>
"What???"<BR>
<BR>
"Ah, said...the sherrif's a <Bo--vargr!--ng>"<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:06:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> You'll need to read the archives. But basicly, she's a *very* odd<BR>
> little girl who just happens to be chief weapons designer for Familie<BR>
> Spofulam. And she's been known to use "annoying" people (like the ones<BR>
> from the legal dept who keep telling her "you can't do that") as<BR>
> practice targets. <BR>
<BR>
Hm...does Ditzie use anagathics to stay a little girl?  Seems like she's been<BR>
around for a while...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:26:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
Robert Prior wrote:<BR>
>The sandals were from Athens. Used as evidence of literacy among the <BR>
>population (ie. not much point in having writing if only a few can <BR>
>understand it). <BR>
<BR>
My two year old cannot read yet, but he can recognize certain written<BR>
symbols for things he likes - McDonald's golden arches, for example.<BR>
It's not much of a stretch to have illiterate people know what the<BR>
words "follow me" look like - especially if a contexual cue (being<BR>
printed within footprints) is included. <BR>
<BR>
Of course, this only works for people who are part of the culture.<BR>
They know that footprints like that are made by prostitutes, they<BR>
don't necessarily know that it literally reads "follow me". <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:44:16 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: sheep <BR>
<BR>
>From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
>Subject: RE: sheep <BR>
...<BR>
>>   I'm not responsible for this turn of events...<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, I thought ewe were.... <g><BR>
<BR>
  Ooh! Now you've gone too far, bucko - just ba-a-a-a-ack off!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1939<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 17 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1940<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1938<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1938<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1939<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: Vilani Iron Chef<BR>
RE: Vilani Iron Chef<BR>
Re: Copyright FAQ<BR>
MT's version of Fire, Fusion, & Steel<BR>
Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Katzeburgers<BR>
Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
Re: Constitutional right to travel <BR>
Massive conspiracy (was Re: Copyright FAQ)<BR>
Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Lobsters and Ids<BR>
Re: Vilani Iron Chef<BR>
Re: Katzeburgers<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:11:42 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1938<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 6:36:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< There is a big difference between defending yourself in court<BR>
 and acting as your own attorney in court.  Doing the former<BR>
 gives you certain powers that an attorney does not have.<BR>
 Doing the latter strips you of those same powers.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In fact, in SOME criminal matters, if you are poorish and have a choice <BR>
between the stringer public defenders [not the professional corps some areas <BR>
have] and yourself, and you are smart and good looking, doing it yourself <BR>
might be a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
Most judges will warn you that you are own your own, but then will fill in <BR>
all the blanks in your motions, or even hint you should make them [to avoid <BR>
appeals issues]; and MOST importantly you can make statements and slant <BR>
questions without the exposure to cross that formal testifying would bring.<BR>
<BR>
Still, a regular okay criminal lawyer is most likely better than you at your <BR>
best, but a lot of these guys are picking up PD cases at the courthouse for a <BR>
reason.<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:17:38 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1938<BR>
<BR>
Heck,  from FDR's takeover by threat of the court right up until Lopez [the <BR>
Supreme Court 'no guns within 100 feet of a school, even if in your car on a <BR>
public road' case], the rule looked like<BR>
<BR>
'If you breath air the atoms from your lungs may be blown into another state <BR>
and inhaled by a worker, therefore you effect interstate commerce and the <BR>
congress can make laws about you for no other reason.'<BR>
<BR>
Now the state does have to show some vaguely real reason why the law has <BR>
something to do with the commerce clause of the constitution.<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 6:36:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Actually, it is.  What follows are a few legal citations that<BR>
 speak to the subject.  Some of these items are slanted to<BR>
 Californians, but I am currently in California, so that's where<BR>
 I'm coming from.  These citations are not exhaustive and can<BR>
 be used to find a good many others if you are in fact<BR>
 interested in the truth of the matter.<BR>
 <BR>
 "The navigable waters leading into the Mississippi and St.<BR>
 Lawrence, *and the carrying places between the same, shall<BR>
 be common highways and forever free*, as well to the<BR>
 inhabitants of the said territory as to the citizens of the United<BR>
 States, and those of any other States that may be admitted<BR>
 into the confederacy, without any tax, impost, or duty<BR>
 therefore."<BR>
 - --Northwest Ordinances, Article 4.<BR>
 <BR>
 "Highways are for the use of the traveling public, and all have<BR>
 the right to use them in a reasonable and proper manner; the<BR>
 use thereof is an inalienable right of every citizen."<BR>
 - --Escobedo v. State 35 C2d 870 in 8 Cal Jur 3d p.27<BR>
 <BR>
 "Users of the highway for transportation of persons and<BR>
 property for hire may be subjected to special regulations not<BR>
 applicable to those using the highway for public purposes."<BR>
 - --Richmond Baking Co. v. Department of Treasury 18 N.E.<BR>
 2d 788.<BR>
 <BR>
 "Constitutionally protected liberty includes... the right to<BR>
 travel..."<BR>
 - --13 Cal Jur 3d p.416<BR>
 <BR>
 In California, a license is defined as "A permit, granted by<BR>
 an appropriate governmental body, generally for a<BR>
 consideration, to a person or firm, or corporation to pursue<BR>
 some occupation or to carry on some business subject to<BR>
 regulation under the police power."<BR>
 - --Rosenblatt v. California 158 P2d 199, 300.<BR>
 <BR>
 "Operation of a motor vehicle upon public streets and<BR>
 highways is not a mere privilege but is a right or liberty<BR>
 protected by the guarantees of Federal and State<BR>
 constitutions."<BR>
 - --Adams v. City of Pocatello 416 P2d 46<BR>
 <BR>
 "A citizen may have the right, under the 14th amendment to<BR>
 the Constitution of the United States, to travel and transport<BR>
 his property upon the public highways by auto vehicle, but he<BR>
 has no right to make the highways his place of business by<BR>
 using them as a common carrier for hire; such use being a<BR>
 privilege which may be granted or withheld by the state in its<BR>
 discretion, without violating the due process or equal<BR>
 protection clauses."<BR>
 - --In Re Graham 93 Cal App 88.<BR>
 <BR>
 "The license charge imposed by the motor vehicle act is an<BR>
 excise or privilege tax, established for the purpose of<BR>
 revenue in order to provide a fund for roads while under the<BR>
 dominion of the state authorities, it is not a tax imposed as a<BR>
 rental charge or a toll charge for the use of the highways<BR>
 owned and controlled by the state."<BR>
 - --PG&E v. State Treasurer, 168 Cal 420.<BR>
 <BR>
 "The same principles of law are applicable to them as to<BR>
 other vehicles upon the highway. It is therefore, the<BR>
 adaptation and use, rather than the form or kind of<BR>
 conveyance that concerns the courts."<BR>
 - --Indiana Springs Co. v. Brown, 74 N.E. 615.<BR>
 <BR>
 "The automobile is not inherently dangerous."<BR>
 - --Moore v. Roddie, 180 P. 879, Blair v. Broadmore 93 S.E. 632.<BR>
 <BR>
 "The use of the automobile as a necessary adjunct to the<BR>
 earning of a livelihood in modern life requires us in the<BR>
 interest of realism to conclude that the RIGHT to use an<BR>
 automobile on the public highways partakes of the nature of<BR>
 a liberty within the meaning of the Constitutional<BR>
 guarantees..."<BR>
 - --Berberian v. Lussier (1958) 139 A2d 869, 872<BR>
 <BR>
 "Truck driver's failure to be licensed as chauffeur does not<BR>
 establish him or his employer as negligent as a matter of law<BR>
 with respect to accident in which driver was involved, in<BR>
 absence of any evidence that lack of such license had any<BR>
 casual or causal connection with the accident."<BR>
 - --Bryant v. Tulare Ice Co. (1954) 125 CA 2d 566<BR>
 <BR>
 "The RIGHT of the citizen to DRIVE on the public street with<BR>
 freedom from police interference, unless he is engaged in<BR>
 suspicious conduct associated in some manner with<BR>
 criminality is a FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT<BR>
 which must be protected by the courts."<BR>
 - --People v. Horton 14 Cal. App. 3rd 667 (1971)<BR>
 <BR>
 "The RIGHT to TRAVEL on the public highways is a<BR>
 constitutional right."<BR>
 - --Teche Lines v. Danforth, Miss. 12 So 2d 784, 787.<BR>
 <BR>
 "The right to travel is part of the 'liberty' that a citizen cannot<BR>
 be deprived without due process of law."<BR>
 - --Kent v. Dulles 357 U.S. 116, U.S. v. Laub 385 U.S. 475<BR>
 <BR>
 "One who DRIVES an automobile is an operator within<BR>
 meaning of the Motor Vehicle Act."<BR>
 - --Pontius v. McClean 113 CA 452<BR>
 <BR>
 "The word 'operator' shall not include any person who solely<BR>
 transports his own property and who transports no persons<BR>
 or property for hire or compensation."<BR>
 - --Statutes at Large California Chapter 412 p.833<BR>
 <BR>
 "The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and<BR>
 to transport his property thereon, by horse-drawn carriage,<BR>
 wagon, or automobile is not a mere privilege which may be<BR>
 permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he<BR>
 has under his right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of<BR>
 happiness."<BR>
 - --Slusher v. Safety Coach Transit Co., 229 Ky 731, 17<BR>
 SW2d 1012, and affirmed by the Supreme Court in<BR>
 Thompson v. Smith 154 S.E. 579.<BR>
 <BR>
 "CVC* 17459. The acceptance by a resident of this state of a<BR>
 certificate of ownership or a certificate of registration of any<BR>
 motor vehicle or any renewal thereof, issued under the<BR>
 provisions of this code, shall constitute the CONSENT by the<BR>
 person that service of summons may be made upon him<BR>
 within or without this state, whether or not he is then a<BR>
 resident of this state, in any action brought in the courts of<BR>
 this state upon a cause of action arising in this state out of<BR>
 the ownership or operation of the vehicle." California<BR>
 Vehicle Code<BR>
 <BR>
 "CVC* 17460. The acceptance or retention by a resident of<BR>
 this state of a driver's license issued pursuant to the<BR>
 provisions of this code, shall constitute the CONSENT of the<BR>
 person that service of summons may be made upon him<BR>
 within or without this state, whether or not he is then a<BR>
 resident of this state, in any action brought in the courts of<BR>
 this state upon a cause of action arising in this state out of<BR>
 his operation of a motor vehicle anywhere within this state."<BR>
 <BR>
   * California Vehicle Code<BR>
 <BR>
 "When a person applies for and accepts a license or permit,<BR>
 he in effect knows the limitations of it, and takes it at the risk<BR>
 and consequences of transgression."<BR>
 - --Shevlin-Carpenter Co. v Minnesota, 218 U.S. 57.<BR>
 <BR>
 >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:23:51 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1939<BR>
<BR>
Man, I remember when I was in Norway for some BS operation or other, all <BR>
around the area of Tromso, wow.<BR>
Those deli-type bar for meals, and that Mack beer.<BR>
And the people up there were great, nicest I ever saw as a total group toward <BR>
the military anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
The beer and sandwiches.......<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 12:40:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< > -Carousing always involves vodka, beer, and little open-faced<BR>
 > sandwiches<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:31:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-02-15 18:02:53 EST, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> << If you refuse to learn to drive (like one of my Philosophy profs<BR>
> <BR>
> I have no driver's license -- I hate to drive. I am amazed how many people <BR>
> consider this evidence of diminished mental capacity. I am flabberagasted how <BR>
> many sales clerks refuse to take a _passport_ as ID until you call the <BR>
> manager over (and I have run into one manager who refused to recognize a <BR>
> passport as an indentity document -- this despite the small print in their <BR>
> operations manual that makes no mention of "driver's license" but says <BR>
> "government-issued photo identity document").<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I've had the exact same experience.<BR>
<BR>
"Excuse me.  It's good enough for Japan Immigration at Narita Airport but<BR>
it's not good enough for Wal-Mart?  I wanna talk to your supervisor."<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:50:17 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Iron Chef<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> Of course it would be different! You don't boil cats! You roast them in a<BR>
> red wine sauce!<BR>
> <BR>
> The Vilani Iron Chef.<BR>
<BR>
Now that Canada has finally been civilized by showing the dubbed version of <BR>
Iron Chef on the Food Channel I can finally comment with some non-existant<BR>
authority on this.<BR>
<BR>
Cat has to be set off by one of the three "luxury ingredients" of course -<BR>
foie gras, truffles or caviar (or is one of them champagne?).<BR>
<BR>
Or perhaps (I forget their proper names, except for Chen's):<BR>
<BR>
Iron Chef French: roast cat with herbs province<BR>
Iron Chef Italian: pasta with cat balls<BR>
Iron Chef Japanese: cat sashimi of course ;)<BR>
Iron Chef Chinese: just plain old cat<BR>
Iron Chef Vilani: cook the cat in a clay pot for 24 hours, puree, garnish with<BR>
                  a flavourless nut sauce<BR>
Iron Chef Hiver: cat sauce, for export into K'kree space<BR>
Iron Chef K'kree: crushed cat<BR>
Iron Chef Vargr: live cat, in sauce<BR>
Iron Chef Aslan: hm, this one might be tough...<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:19:21 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Vilani Iron Chef<BR>
<BR>
 -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Ethan Henry [mailto:egh@klg.com]<BR>
>Iron Chef Aslan: hm, this one might be tough...<BR>
<BR>
Cat in comfortable shoes?<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:10:13 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Copyright FAQ<BR>
<BR>
>has been around forever. (Don't laugh. The lawsuit that helped end Game<BR>
>Designers' Workshop was similar, and about that flimsy.)<BR>
Details? I always wanted to know who those b@*t@&ds were. I previously <BR>
blamed TSR for their D.J. suit...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:39:08 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: MT's version of Fire, Fusion, & Steel<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone tried to put together a MegaTraveller<BR>
version of Fire, Fusion, and Steel?<BR>
<BR>
I'm looking for some guidelines for designing<BR>
custom ship-to-ship weaponry and armor.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:14:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:06 AM 2/17/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hm...does Ditzie use anagathics to stay a little girl?  Seems like she's<BR>
>been around for a while...<BR>
<BR>
She's Vilani.. ages slower.<BR>
<BR>
That and uncle Hengie started the practise of throwing her into to cold<BR>
sleep until she's needed..<BR>
<BR>
Oh, god.. I just had a *nasty* idea for an adventure... <BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:26:21<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 10:06 PM 2/16/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>While I have never been to SF, I will say that going to the<BR>
>Chinese/Vietnamese markets in Houston is not to be missed. Picking your fish<BR>
>fresh out of a tank is great, not to mention baggin your own live crabs :)<BR>
<BR>
If you ever get out here, we'll take you down to the Wharf at about 0500<BR>
when the crab boats are coming in. The meat will be ready just as the<BR>
Parisian truck delivers the fresh sourdough. This is a nice breakfast on a<BR>
foggy morning.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:27:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 08:20 AM 2/17/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, I believe that PETA has just decided to expand its anti-fur <BR>
>campaign to anti-leather too according to the national UK press.<BR>
><BR>
>I guess they're going to find out why it's a *bad* idea to throw <BR>
>paint at a biker etc and why you might get a different reaction to a <BR>
>fashion junkie....<BR>
<BR>
for the last few years, the organizers of the Folsom Street Leather Fair<BR>
have offered PeTA a free booth. Since the fair consists of about 200,000<BR>
leather freaks of varying persuasions, they haven't seen fit to accept the<BR>
offer.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:32:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Katzeburgers<BR>
<BR>
At 11:42 PM 2/16/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Minority opinion was that it tasted like rabbit. Majority opinion was that <BR>
>it tasted like broiled alleycat. <BR>
<BR>
After eturning to Ft. Benning fro  the NTC at Ft. Irwin, where we had eaten<BR>
a number of snakes during SERE training, my mates and I went to the mess<BR>
hall for dinner. They were serving chicken. As I waited in line, I asked a<BR>
seated friend how the food was.<BR>
<BR>
"Hmm.. Tastes like rattlesnake."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"<BR>
                    -Adam West, as Batman <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:38:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 09:18 PM 2/16/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I have also had to get lobsters ready to stuff, which involves stabbing them<BR>
>(at first) in their brain when you make your cut to split them the long way.<BR>
>They have such a primitive nerve network that even though they are dead,<BR>
>they will flop around for a few minutes even after being split in half. That<BR>
>was kind of weird.<BR>
<BR>
Then of course, there was the infamous Larry Niven lobster incident. At a<BR>
Worldcon (Noreascon III, I seem to recall), Larry, Pournelle, Ben Bova, Jim<BR>
Baen and assorted wives and children were having dinner in the *good*<BR>
restaurant. Niven ordered Lobster Newburg.<BR>
<BR>
This dish is an entire lobster, stuffed, and almost looks alive. The<BR>
platter arrives, Niven looks the lobster in the face (?), leans over and says:<BR>
<BR>
"Hang on! Hospital Station thinks they can cure you!"<BR>
<BR>
Which lead to all sorts of silliness. The night ended with Pournelle and<BR>
Baen sealing a mutual defense treaty with the Baked Alaska.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:53:17 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Constitutional right to travel <BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:06:27 -0500 (EST), Glenn Goffin<BR>
<gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
>>Subject: Constitutional right to travel (was: Re: Jtas<BR>
>>copyright)<BR>
<BR>
>>Edwards v California (312 US 473 [1941]); California tried to <BR>
>>bar the 'Okie' migrants at the border, and the Court decided <BR>
>>that it was an unconstitutional infringement on a right to <BR>
>>travel.<BR>
<BR>
>Based on the 14th Amendment's privileges and immunities clause?<BR>
<BR>
I suspect so, possibly in combination with IX and X, but since it<BR>
was only a cite, not a summary, and the text of this decision<BR>
isn't on-line where I can find it, I can't say for certain.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:06:44 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Massive conspiracy (was Re: Copyright FAQ)<BR>
<BR>
Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >has been around forever. (Don't laugh. The lawsuit that helped end Game<BR>
> >Designers' Workshop was similar, and about that flimsy.)<BR>
> Details? I always wanted to know who those b@*t@&ds were. I previously<BR>
> blamed TSR for their D.J. suit...<BR>
<BR>
There must be more to the story than we think. A quick whois search for<BR>
"gdw.com" shows that the domain is owned by:<BR>
<BR>
World Savings & Loan (GDW14-DOM)<BR>
4101 Wiseman Boulevard<BR>
San Antonio, TX 78251<BR>
US<BR>
<BR>
Note the address. Coincidence?<BR>
<BR>
Shortly after the suit, LKW goes to work for a company notorious for its<BR>
involvement in secret societies and conspiracies, which immediately decides<BR>
to reprint the material of the recently demised company, making profits<BR>
sufficient to fund the acquisition of many LEGO sets. Have you bought any<BR>
LEGO for your kids recently? It's not cheap. There must have been a<BR>
significant amount of money involved.<BR>
<BR>
Could I have just found the first proof of a massive conspiracy?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:41:33 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
1. The 5th Frontier War fizzles when the Zhodani say "Hay mate, lets have a<BR>
barbie"<BR>
2. Lack of beer is a valid reason to Red zone a planet.<BR>
3. You spend more credits on beer rations than on ship maintenace (Hi Cory, Mike<BR>
and Tony!)<BR>
4. The Solomani Rim War was a rugby tour gone wrong (but we still win<BR>
convincingly)<BR>
5. The poni from the IISS logo faces extinction as everone wants to shhot and<BR>
eat them.<BR>
6. Sylea wins the right to the next Zhodani Psionics Olympics.<BR>
7. Everyonce complaigns about "Those bloody whinging Sollies"<BR>
8. The Imperium attempt to buy back all the civilian owned weapons, and is<BR>
amazed how many people claim that a FGMP is      a valid farming implement.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:45:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Eric B. Smith" <ericbsmith@altavista.net><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
<GDWGAMES@aol.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I have no driver's license -- I hate to drive. I am amazed how many people<BR>
> consider this evidence of diminished mental capacity. I am flabberagasted how<BR>
> many sales clerks refuse to take a _passport_ as ID until you call the<BR>
> manager over (and I have run into one manager who refused to recognize a<BR>
> passport as an indentity document -- this despite the small print in their<BR>
> operations manual that makes no mention of "driver's license" but says<BR>
> "government-issued photo identity document").<BR>
<BR>
To be fair to all those sales clerks, you have to realise that they're just<BR>
protecting their own asses here.  There are some rather outrageous fines for<BR>
selling alchohol or tobbacco products to minors (or to anyone you can reasonably<BR>
believe will hand the products over to minors, or selling alchohol to an<BR>
obviously drunk person, or allowing someone to consume alchohol on store<BR>
premisis).  Here in NY state the fine is $1,000 not including lawyers fees.  It<BR>
also puts the businesses liscense to sell said products in jeopardy, which means<BR>
that most businesses have a standing policy of automatic termination of anyone<BR>
who gets caught selling to minors.  Losing ones near minimum wage job makes it<BR>
even more difficult to pay those expensive court fees.  When in doubt it's much<BR>
easier to deny the sale than to make the sale and risk losing ones job.  Few<BR>
clerks will get fired for refusing an occassional sale.  Almost all of them will<BR>
get fired for making that one sale they shouldn't have...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Most states do this, I think. I haven't bothered to get one from Texas yet.<BR>
<BR>
Then don't complain about the extra hassle you have to go through when the clerk<BR>
asks for a state issued photo ID with which the clerk is actually familiar.  One<BR>
reason why many clerks like to accept only a Drivers License is because it's a<BR>
known quantity.  If I'm looking at a supposed license from 5 states away how am<BR>
I supposed to know if it's a forgery or not when I've never actually seen a<BR>
Texas State Drivers License (living in NY and all).  You don't get a training<BR>
course which familiarizes you to all 50 states individual licenses, not to<BR>
mention the multitude of other state or federal government sponsored photo ID's.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
EricBSmith   \\\///   SmithEricB<BR>
@stny.rr.com  \\//  @hotmail.com<BR>
@altavista.net \/  AIM/MMS Names<BR>
<BR>
Objectivity is in the eye of the beholder.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:06:01 -0500<BR>
From: "Delos" <delos@superior.net><BR>
Subject: Lobsters and Ids<BR>
<BR>
I get the digest version, so I grouped these replies together....<BR>
<BR>
First, the Id's...I used to work in a Convienence store and I had the option<BR>
to refuse the sale of anything to anyone I chose for any reason. My bosses<BR>
might or might not have liked my choices, but they weren't running the risk<BR>
of prison/fines, either. And we were encouraged not to accept out-of-state<BR>
Ids because we were less likely to know which ones were fake. We did have to<BR>
accept military Ids.<BR>
<BR>
My wife works for the same grocery chain as a cashier and they accept any<BR>
state license, but no military Id. And she is not allowed to deny anyone a<BR>
purchase except for cases involving alcohol or tobacco (and<BR>
lighters/matches) and then only for certain reasons (the purchaser is<BR>
intoxicated or might really be underage.)<BR>
<BR>
I wonder what our state laws really say about this...In my case, I had<BR>
greater responsibility and (probably)therefore had more options available.<BR>
<BR>
From: Les_Howie@keane.com<BR>
Subject: Lobsters<BR>
>"No, I cannot have shared accomidations with my assistant!  We don't talk<BR>
about<BR>
>it with outsiders, by I am coming into my molt AND I NEED MY OWN CABIN!!!"<BR>
<BR>
LOL. Yeah, and these lobster-aliens would be especially vulnerable with a<BR>
soft, new squishy shell. I can just imagine a couple of sample lobster<BR>
professions: Molt Security. Barnacle Removal. =)<BR>
<BR>
And someone mentioned putting lobsters in low berth...Provided that the<BR>
lobsters are able to be revived that would work fine. Otherwise you'd want<BR>
to eat them fairly quickly after they die...they get mushy after about 24<BR>
hours.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, this is a better idea than shipping them alive in cargo<BR>
containers. Besides eating each other, they also have the habit of excreting<BR>
on the lobsters underneath them. So when we get them to the store, we need<BR>
to give them a salt-water 'bath.' Ugh.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah. Someone else talked about the rubber bands keeping them from eating<BR>
each other...FYI they are mainly for that purpose. However, they also have<BR>
multiple mandibles that they use to break up their food. I have never<BR>
researched it, but these mandibles are a lot like small arms and don't seem<BR>
'hard' enough to break up another lobster's shell. Yet, they will eat fish<BR>
scales and lobster-shells.<BR>
<BR>
Instead of a dentist, would lobsters go to a 'Mandiblist?' =)<BR>
Delos<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:54:29 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vilani Iron Chef<BR>
<BR>
Hehe.  I like the idea a Vilani Iron Chef.<BR>
But you all know why the shugili are so<BR>
secretive don't you?<BR>
<BR>
It isn't because they cook cats, dogs, chirpers,<BR>
or anything like that.  Its because when things<BR>
were tough back in the day on Vland, the Vilani<BR>
survived on . . .Vilani!<BR>
<BR>
They don't have a big need for it anymore, but<BR>
the secret knowledge is passed down from one<BR>
shugili to another.  Just in case.<BR>
<BR>
The next time your characters are offered Vilani<BR>
Long Pig Stew, run!<BR>
<BR>
Soylent Green is People!<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:44:10 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Katzeburgers<BR>
<BR>
Regards moggies years ago I worked for a year for a major southwestern<BR>
city's health department as a data base programmer.    When I joined up the<BR>
story around the office was that one of the popular local ethnic, all you<BR>
can eat, buffeteria chains had had a restaurant just recently shut down for<BR>
serving gato in the ground meat of their tacos.  I have had an aversion to<BR>
that Mexican restaurant chain ever since.  No it is not the one with the<BR>
talking ratweiler.<BR>
<BR>
Regards Traveller how about an eating Raoul plot twist?  Picture a perverse<BR>
hunt/foodie club in the Spinwards that serves freshly slain Chirper, Vargr<BR>
or Aslan.  Question comes to mind, could a human safely eat a Chirper or an<BR>
Aslan or is the body chemistry to dissimilar?  Due to the common genetic<BR>
link I should think that Vargr would not be a gustatory problem.  Conversely<BR>
Vargrs should be able to eat humans so that might make for some really<BR>
horrific anti-Vargr propaganda.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:55:27 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 3:34 AM -0800 2/17/00, Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>Concerning laws regulating driving,<BR>
>Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>>But you still have the right to travel! ...<BR>
><BR>
>No, you don't.  When you accept a drivers license, you<BR>
>exchange your right to travel for a state licensed privilege.<BR>
>The privilege you accept in exchange for that right is<BR>
>regulated by the same state that licenses it.  It can be<BR>
>regulated or canceled at the whim of the state.<BR>
<BR>
The driver's license isn't based on whether or not you<BR>
have a "right to travel".  It is based on the fact that<BR>
the government _owns_ the land the roades sit on and can set<BR>
any requirements it wants for their use.<BR>
<BR>
You have the right to travel over any other lands that you<BR>
own (or for which the owner provides permission) to<BR>
your heart's content without a driver's liscence.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 17:11:12 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
> Corporations are generally not evil. If they are, they are corrupted by<BR>
> spies from another race of culture.<BR>
<BR>
Actually this goes in cycles.  In the movies thing swing between<BR>
the Evil Bad Guys (EBGs tm) being "scheming amoral foreign<BR>
agents/mad men", "scheming amoral agents from a secrect<BR>
US gov agency", and "scheming amoral corporations".<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1940<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1941</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 18 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1941<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Lien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1940<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
Re: Lien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
RE: Katzeburgers<BR>
RE: Katzeburgers<BR>
Who "owns" what (was: A real world example)<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
RE: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
Re: Who "owns" what (was: A real world example)<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1940<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Massive conspiracy (was Re: Copyright FAQ)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:30:41 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snips discussion of a good-faith buyer's troubles>><BR>
> <BR>
> Point is, under the NZ system, the dealer _does_ own title, but that does<BR>
> not prevent a creditor of the previous owner repossessing the ship. That<BR>
> the creditor failed to do so while the dealer held the title is just bad<BR>
> luck for the buyer.<BR>
> <BR>
> <stuff about suspending liens snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> Well, that's an equivalent nasty trick to run on PC's<BR>
<BR>
If one's TU has such a policy, this would, of course, be a strong<BR>
motivation to "buy new", from reputable shipyards such as AuricTech.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:27:50 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 4:55 PM -0800 2/17/2000, David P. Summers wrote:<BR>
>At 3:34 AM -0800 2/17/00, Jason T. Barnabas wrote:<BR>
>>Concerning laws regulating driving,<BR>
>>Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
>>>But you still have the right to travel! ...<BR>
>><BR>
>>No, you don't.  When you accept a drivers license, you<BR>
>>exchange your right to travel for a state licensed privilege.<BR>
>>The privilege you accept in exchange for that right is<BR>
>>regulated by the same state that licenses it.  It can be<BR>
>>regulated or canceled at the whim of the state.<BR>
><BR>
>The driver's license isn't based on whether or not you<BR>
>have a "right to travel".  It is based on the fact that<BR>
>the government _owns_ the land the roades sit on and can set<BR>
>any requirements it wants for their use.<BR>
<BR>
The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'.<BR>
<BR>
>You have the right to travel over any other lands that you<BR>
>own (or for which the owner provides permission) to<BR>
>your heart's content without a driver's liscence.<BR>
<BR>
Since I own all the *public* land, then I have a right to<BR>
travel on it.  Now the government makes rules and regulations<BR>
that are in the public interest that are conditions to using<BR>
the public land but that's a big difference from some landowner<BR>
making the rules because he owns the land.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:11:10 -0500<BR>
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1940<BR>
<BR>
> Now that Canada has finally been civilized by showing the dubbed version of <BR>
> Iron Chef on the Food Channel I can finally comment with some non-existant<BR>
> authority on this.<BR>
> <BR>
> Cat has to be set off by one of the three "luxury ingredients" of course -<BR>
> foie gras, truffles or caviar (or is one of them champagne?).<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that it has to be soaked in milk for a while to get rid of<BR>
the fishy smell, and then wrapped in fat netting.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, a recent Iron Chef junkie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:24:01 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
>the court, cross-examine witnesses, etc. And, as the old saying goes,<BR>
>>someone defending themselves generally has a fool for a client.<BR>
><BR>
>There is a big difference between defending yourself in court<BR>
>and acting as your own attorney in court.  Doing the former<BR>
>gives you certain powers that an attorney does not have.<BR>
>Doing the latter strips you of those same powers.<BR>
><BR>
>I wonder if it might have been a lawyer to first used that old<BR>
>saying?  I wouldn't be surprised.<BR>
<BR>
Indeed it was. Abraham Lincoln. <BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:14 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Feb 00, at 9:41, dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 1. The 5th Frontier War fizzles when the Zhodani say "Hay mate, lets have<BR>
> a barbie" 2. Lack of beer is a valid reason to Red zone a planet. 3. You<BR>
> spend more credits on beer rations than on ship maintenace (Hi Cory, Mike<BR>
> and Tony!) 4. The Solomani Rim War was a rugby tour gone wrong (but we<BR>
> still win convincingly) 5. The poni from the IISS logo faces extinction as<BR>
> everone wants to shhot and eat them. 6. Sylea wins the right to the next<BR>
> Zhodani Psionics Olympics. 7. Everyonce complaigns about "Those bloody<BR>
> whinging Sollies" 8. The Imperium attempt to buy back all the civilian<BR>
> owned weapons, and is amazed how many people claim that a FGMP is      a<BR>
> valid farming implement.<BR>
<BR>
Of course it is. Absolutely necessary for controlled burn-offs.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 18:09, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> >Would've been illegal in resturants long since - OSH <BR>
> >(Occupational Saftey and Health) would've outlawed it years <BR>
> >ago, on account of how the cat's writhing splashes boiling <BR>
> >water on the cooks.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not to mention the scratches likely to be incurred.  Cats always<BR>
> know when you're trying to throw them into water, and they<BR>
> become rather upset.  <BR>
<BR>
There is that. I remember my sisters trying to wash our tomcat. There <BR>
was water all over them, the bathroom floor and walls, but the cat was <BR>
remarkably dry. I also saw the same cat do a credible job of walking on <BR>
water by denial (if I say I'm not getting wet, then I'm not getting <BR>
wet).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Feb 00, at 20:27, Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
> holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
> of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
> money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'.<BR>
<BR>
I thought that was the communist line. <gdr><BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Feb 00, at 10:51, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     That's disgusting!<BR>
>     You should hang the meat for at least 24 hours, or it'll be tougher<BR>
>     than<BR>
> a boot.<BR>
<BR>
Like I said, I wasn't the cook. I agree with you - it certainly helps <BR>
with hare (a workable substitute is 24 - 48 hours in a refrigerator).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 21:00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm.  Rosemary.  Hadn't thought about it, but I'll bet that rosemary<BR>
> would also enhance the flavor of freshly broiled K'kree.  I'll have to try<BR>
> it when I get a chance.<BR>
<BR>
Add a bit of Thyme as well (works with beef...)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 19:11, Josh W. Spencer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Imagine if you will having that effect with a normal human consumable,<BR>
> such as chicken. My ex-wife can't stand chicken because she raised them<BR>
> when she was a kid, and one day she came home from school, her family had<BR>
> chicken soup on the table, and she asked her parents where her favorite<BR>
> chicken was. It turned out they were eating her favorite chicken. And that<BR>
> turned her off forever.<BR>
<BR>
At a school agricultural day ("Calf Club") when I was a kid one of the <BR>
contestants had a lamb called "Lamb Chops". When asked why it was <BR>
called that by an amused judge he proudly said "'Cause when he grows <BR>
up, that's what he'll be, and then we'll eat him!" The audience <BR>
(children and adults) all laughed. As you may have guessed this was a <BR>
rural school.<BR>
<BR>
> 11 years ago, during my divorce, my ex visited me with our son to try and<BR>
> "save our marriage." For dinner my folks cooked chicken Rice-A-Roni and<BR>
> had chicken hot dogs. We didn't tell her that it was chicken-based but she<BR>
> ate it anyway.<BR>
> <BR>
> To this day, she's never found out.<BR>
<BR>
I take certain other parties weren't interested in "saving" the <BR>
marriage?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:14 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American when...<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 18:28, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >If someone was *really* clever, they would write the sequels:<BR>
> >"Your Traveller Universe is too British when..."<BR>
> <BR>
> If I may be so bold:<BR>
> <BR>
> Your Traveller Universe is Too Finnish when:<BR>
> <BR>
> -you assign 2dtons of sauna space for every eight persons aboard<BR>
> a ship<BR>
> <BR>
> -Blade Combat skill cascades into additional categories: Hunting<BR>
> Knife, Large; Hunting Knife, Medium; Hunting Knife, Small<BR>
<BR>
For too Kiwi add Machete to the list.<BR>
<BR>
> -Carousing always involves vodka, beer, and little open-faced<BR>
> sandwiches<BR>
> <BR>
> -PCs going carousing always decide beforehand which one will be<BR>
> the designated air/raft driver<BR>
<BR>
That's damned organised.<BR>
 <BR>
> -character generation may lead to skills in Skiing and Swimming<BR>
> <BR>
> -that's true of any service<BR>
> <BR>
> -Naasirka is actually a wholly-owned subsidiary of Nokia, which<BR>
> acquired control as part of the settlements ending the<BR>
> Interstellar Wars<BR>
> <BR>
> -Naasirka personal commo devices really are the best in the<BR>
> galaxy<BR>
> <BR>
> -anyone using a Naasirka personal commo device who does not have<BR>
> Engineering-1, Electronics-1, or Commo-1 must make a task roll<BR>
> of "difficult" to do anything with the device<BR>
> <BR>
> -everyone wants to know what "tavo" refers to, and why someone<BR>
> would name a world "my tavo's" (Tavonni); my tavo's what?<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:13 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Car Wars sources OT<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 17:47, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The referee should of course keep the ship out of action, or<BR>
> this becomes much less interesting.  Again, a good referee<BR>
> should think of a way to do that without difficulty.<BR>
<BR>
A stray RPG round landing on the truster plates/HEPlaR exhaust should <BR>
do nicely.<BR>
<BR>
For a bit of variation in a TNE game you could have Virus run cars <BR>
(like in Zelazny's stories).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:46:14 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Feb 00, at 21:18, Delos wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I have also had to get lobsters ready to stuff, which involves stabbing<BR>
> them (at first) in their brain when you make your cut to split them the<BR>
> long way. They have such a primitive nerve network that even though they<BR>
> are dead, they will flop around for a few minutes even after being split<BR>
> in half. That was kind of weird. Now that I think about it, I will use<BR>
> something like it in my game as a 'native' delicacy.<BR>
<BR>
Brian shoot pigs and cattle and the same thing happens. I don't <BR>
recommend being anywhere near a 2-year old bull that's just been killed <BR>
this way, as the feet will quite easily put large dents in you while <BR>
they thrash around.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:34:27 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 3:48:50 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
rboleyn@paradise.net.nz writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Brian shoot pigs and cattle and the same thing happens. I don't <BR>
 recommend being anywhere near a 2-year old bull that's just been killed <BR>
 this way, as the feet will quite easily put large dents in you while <BR>
 they thrash around. >><BR>
<BR>
I was always amazed by the Kosher butchers. They stood NEXT to the animal and <BR>
slit its' throat with a razor sharp knife. I've never witnessed one, but I <BR>
wonder how they're not killed by the dying animal...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:08:33 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Lien on me (Was: Jtas copyright)<BR>
<BR>
KInda along these lines is the Deed of Trust I am demanding as part of my<BR>
divorce settlement.<BR>
Apparently, even though I have relinquished all my rights to our house, the<BR>
mortgage  company can and will sue me  if she ever ceases to pay the notes.<BR>
They see no reason to release me from my obligation just because I get a<BR>
divorce. Or so my attorney claims.   This deed of trust will supposedly<BR>
protect me from this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This could be nasty for the PC's. What if they get away from a<BR>
spouse/business partner and then suddenly they are being dragged into court<BR>
because the payments on the ship were ceased about 2 years ago? They have no<BR>
ownership in the vessel, but they are still being held responsible for it.<BR>
Large sums and legal expenses involved.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
- ------------------------<BR>
"Never apologize, never explain."<BR>
                           Hunter S. Thompson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:21:48 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Katzeburgers<BR>
<BR>
> Regards Traveller how about an eating Raoul plot twist?<BR>
<BR>
Given that people have bean talking about eating cats, the phrase "eating<BR>
Raoul" made me think of masticating that talking orange cat from American<BR>
Flagg!<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:21:48 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Katzeburgers<BR>
<BR>
> Regards Traveller how about an eating Raoul plot twist?<BR>
<BR>
Given that people have bean talking about eating cats, the phrase "eating<BR>
Raoul" made me think of masticating that talking orange cat from American<BR>
Flagg!<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:26:33 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Who "owns" what (was: A real world example)<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:27:50 -0600<BR>
From:           	Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
<BR>
First a disclaimer. I'm working from my knowledge of NZ and UK <BR>
laws. Sine the US is decended from the same source I assume it <BR>
is similar. This may seem long and OT, but bear with me I do tie it <BR>
all to Traveller in the end.<BR>
<BR>
> The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
> holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
> of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
> money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'.<BR>
<BR>
In actual truth you technically own all land (even private land). <BR>
When the Normans conquered England, the ownership of all land <BR>
passed to the Crown who then traded the right to use the land (its <BR>
"Title") in return for favours and considerations. This remains true <BR>
even today. Now I'm assuming that when the US got rid of the <BR>
Crown, the actually ownership of land passed to the "The People".<BR>
<BR>
Now, the government holds the Trust for "The People" and therefore <BR>
holds the title to any land for which no individual holds the title. <BR>
Therefore, while you may (as part of "The People") own all public <BR>
land (and private too actually), you don't hold the title to it. <BR>
Therefore, whoever holds the title to that land (the government, in <BR>
the case of public land) may impose on you regulations regarding <BR>
its use or your access to it.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Now the 3rd Imperium is not decended from the same legal <BR>
tradition and doesn't appear to seperate the concepts of ownership <BR>
of land and title to it. This is why the Imperium doesn't have the <BR>
power to make laws relating to worlds. What the 3rd Imperium <BR>
does own is space.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:25:39 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
Hi Bolie,<BR>
<BR>
Your antipathy for the feds is misplaced in this situation.  The vast <BR>
majority of roads in the U.S. are the property of various state, county, <BR>
city, and town governments.  In many cases the "ownership" may be some sort <BR>
of semi-permanent easement, but still, the states tend to hold the <BR>
predominant influence.  Since "the people" decided long ago to vest their <BR>
local officials with the reponsibility to build and maintain the roads for <BR>
the common good, it's hard for me to view the regulations that are placed on <BR>
their usage as constituting some sort of federal intrusion into my life.  I <BR>
don't want to spark a flame war, and this is definitely OT, so I'll end it <BR>
here.<BR>
Ken<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:41:21 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
<BR>
> That and uncle Hengie started the practise of throwing her into to cold<BR>
> sleep until she's needed..<BR>
><BR>
> Oh, god.. I just had a *nasty* idea for an adventure...<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> "But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
> perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
> limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
Oh no, Ditzie and penguins in one post.....<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry, I know it's naughty, and I apologize to Matt Howarth for the<BR>
breach of copyright now, and I'll take it down after a few days, but after<BR>
this I just _had_ to put the following up on the web:<BR>
<BR>
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~frankie/sh17s.jpg<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Assume that this picture is not Savage Henry's Caroline, but part of<BR>
a Traveller game, and come up with an appropriate caption for it.<BR>
<BR>
I'm currently leaning toward the penguins being part of a chorus line....<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:00:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie... (was Re: Filk: The Traveller Munchkin's Song)<BR>
<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Assume that this picture is not Savage Henry's Caroline, but part<BR>
of<BR>
>a Traveller game, and come up with an appropriate caption for it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    How computers in Traveller really work.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 05:22:28 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who "owns" what (was: A real world example)<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip ownership discussion]<BR>
<BR>
'Ownership' is a term laden with philosophical overtones.<BR>
The fundamental root, though, is the ability to exclude<BR>
others from a given territory or possession of a given object.<BR>
That is the foundation of both 'ownership' and 'sovereignty',<BR>
which IMHO are closely related.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: Now the 3rd Imperium is not decended from the same legal<BR>
> tradition and doesn't appear to seperate the concepts of ownership<BR>
> of land and title to it. This is why the Imperium doesn't have the<BR>
> power to make laws relating to worlds. What the 3rd Imperium<BR>
> does own is space.<BR>
<BR>
That depends on whether you accept the Warrant of Restoration<BR>
in the Milieu 0 hardcover.  It has a supremacy clause.  Granted,<BR>
according to canon, it isn't really enforced.  But the statutory<BR>
authority is there.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:18:39 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Rupert wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 18 Feb 00, at 9:41, dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > 8. The Imperium attempt to buy back all the civilian<BR>
> > owned weapons, and is amazed how many people claim that a FGMP is      a<BR>
> > valid farming implement.<BR>
> <BR>
> Of course it is. Absolutely necessary for controlled burn-offs.<BR>
> <BR>
Not to mention rooting out those pesky burrowing varmints...one shot<BR>
down the hole...and if they have burrowed widely enough, plow the<BR>
field all at once!<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:15:44 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1940<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-02-17 20:13:47 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< >has been around forever. (Don't laugh. The lawsuit that helped end Game<BR>
 >Designers' Workshop was similar, and about that flimsy.)<BR>
 Details? I always wanted to know who those b@*t@&ds were. I previously <BR>
 blamed TSR for their D.J. suit... >><BR>
<BR>
The TSR suit is the one Steve refers to. <BR>
<BR>
This lawsuit did not cost GDW a dime (our contract with the DJ people had a <BR>
"hold harmless" clause), and we eventually settled out of court (TSR bought <BR>
all trademarks, copyrights, and all existing stock of books) -- however: the <BR>
depositions and testimony al all round b*llsh*t connected with the case <BR>
absorbed a gigantic amount of staff time which would have been better put <BR>
into other things. GDW could have survived the suit had nothing else happened <BR>
- -- but a couple of other things hit almost simultaneously and the combination <BR>
proved fatal.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:30:05 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
EricBSmith:<BR>
<BR>
<< To be fair to all those sales clerks, you have to realise that they're just<BR>
 protecting their own asses here.  >><BR>
<BR>
I used to be a sales clerk (in the 2 yrs between GDW and SJ Games I worked a <BR>
series of part-time minimum wage jobs), I know what they go through and cut <BR>
them all the slack they deserve. A few sales clerks in ILLINOIS refused to <BR>
take an ILLINOIS state ID, even though it was IDENTICAL to the driver's <BR>
license in every way (except for the obvious ones). I should also mention <BR>
that 19 out of 20 (IL or TX) give me no hassle whatsoever after I say: I <BR>
don't have a license -- this is what I have." <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:33:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:25 AM 2/18/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Since "the people" decided long ago to vest their local officials with the <BR>
>reponsibility to build and maintain the roads for the common good, it's hard <BR>
>for me to view the regulations that are placed on their usage as <BR>
>constituting some sort of federal intrusion into my life.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, building and maintaining roads is in the Cosntitution:<BR>
<BR>
Article 1, section 8, clause 7:<BR>
<BR>
To establish post offices and post roads.<BR>
<BR>
Any road used by the USPS is a post road.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:29:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 08:27 PM 2/17/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
>holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
>of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
>money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'.<BR>
<BR>
Fine. When's the last time you patched a pothole? Or paid for an overpass<BR>
out of your own pocket.<BR>
<BR>
The government owns the roadways in the name of the people.<BR>
<BR>
>Since I own all the *public* land, then I have a right to<BR>
>travel on it.  Now the government makes rules and regulations<BR>
>that are in the public interest that are conditions to using<BR>
>the public land but that's a big difference from some landowner<BR>
>making the rules because he owns the land.<BR>
<BR>
If you don't like the driver's license laws, appeal to your fellow<BR>
"land-owners".  I think you'll find that the vast majority like knowing<BR>
that the people on the road have been certified to be at least minimally<BR>
competent.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, a professional driver for six years.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:43:47 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Massive conspiracy (was Re: Copyright FAQ)<BR>
<BR>
At 14:06 17.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Could I have just found the first proof of a massive conspiracy?<BR>
<BR>
Well, at least _one_ European prejudice about Americans is obviously correct.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1941<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1942</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/18/00 1:12:07 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 18 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1942<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Passports<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: Passports<BR>
Re: Passports & IDs<BR>
RE: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: Passports & ID<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
RE: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Website updated<BR>
TDX and generalizations (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
RE: TDX and generalizations<BR>
Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
RE: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re:  Japanese/Anime Traveller  OT?<BR>
Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:54:51 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Passports<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 5:13:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I've had the exact same experience.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  "Excuse me.  It's good enough for Japan Immigration at Narita Airport but<BR>
>  it's not good enough for Wal-Mart?  I wanna talk to your supervisor."<BR>
<BR>
Just as long as you don't try to use it to buy beer or cigerettes in <BR>
California.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:06:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> EricBSmith:<BR>
> <BR>
> << To be fair to all those sales clerks, you have to realise that they're just<BR>
>  protecting their own asses here.  >><BR>
><BR>
From WHAT?  When I show you a passport it's got the US Government Federal<BR>
Seal on it and mine is all covered with stamps from Japan Immigration.<BR>
Hello?  It couldn't possibly be anyone else's.<BR>
<BR>
And don't give me all that stuff about drinking laws.  I may not look it,<BR>
but I'm 35.  I look around 25 according to most people and I occasionally<BR>
get carded, but that's not when I have the problem, I have the problem<BR>
when I'm trying to cash an effing CHECK!!!  (I've never had someone refuse<BR>
a passport when they were carding me.  Even for buying cheap sake and<BR>
beer.)<BR>
<BR>
I once had a BANK official refuse to take a frakkin' passport-- at my own<BR>
effing BANK!!!  He gave me some kind of noise about people buying fake<BR>
passports in the Hispanic sections of town.  But my picture is on the<BR>
passport and my signature and all that other good stuff and they have<BR>
records of all that stuff to match with.  I went to another branch of the<BR>
bank and had no problem.  That yahoo was insisting that a California DL is<BR>
harder to get and more reliable than a US passport and I happen to know<BR>
that anyone who can really get you a fake passport can also get you a fake<BR>
DL.  <BR>
<BR>
It's just a lot of the racist noise I get from people who think I'm<BR>
Hispanic because they're too dumb to realize that you can have black hair<BR>
and eyes (or even a Spanish last name, DUH) without being illegal.  If I<BR>
had an epicanthic fold I might get less of this, they treat part or full<BR>
Asians *slightly* better-- but I don't know-- Hiroshi gets a lot of<BR>
"stuff" too, but then he has an accent.<BR>
 <BR>
> I used to be a sales clerk (in the 2 yrs between GDW and SJ Games I worked a <BR>
> series of part-time minimum wage jobs), I know what they go through and cut <BR>
> them all the slack they deserve. A few sales clerks in ILLINOIS refused to <BR>
> take an ILLINOIS state ID, even though it was IDENTICAL to the driver's <BR>
> license in every way (except for the obvious ones). I should also mention <BR>
> that 19 out of 20 (IL or TX) give me no hassle whatsoever after I say: I <BR>
> don't have a license -- this is what I have." <BR>
> <BR>
Yeah, but that 20th one is always so totally completely obnoxious.  I<BR>
worked third shift at an all-night grocery store in Lexington Kentucky for<BR>
longer than I care to think about.  It's not a job requirement to be an<BR>
idiot!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:07:43 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Passports<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 Kagehira@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/17/00 5:13:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I've had the exact same experience.<BR>
> >  <BR>
> >  "Excuse me.  It's good enough for Japan Immigration at Narita Airport but<BR>
> >  it's not good enough for Wal-Mart?  I wanna talk to your supervisor."<BR>
> <BR>
> Just as long as you don't try to use it to buy beer or cigerettes in <BR>
> California.<BR>
> <BR>
Actually, as I mentioned in another post, I never had trouble buying beer<BR>
with it, it's getting them to take my check!<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:07:36 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Passports & IDs<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/17/00 5:13:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Then don't complain about the extra hassle you have to go through when the <BR>
clerk<BR>
>  asks for a state issued photo ID with which the clerk is actually <BR>
familiar.  One<BR>
>  reason why many clerks like to accept only a Drivers License is because <BR>
it's a<BR>
>  known quantity.  If I'm looking at a supposed license from 5 states away <BR>
how  am<BR>
>  I supposed to know if it's a forgery or not when I've never actually seen a<BR>
>  Texas State Drivers License (living in NY and all).  You don't get a <BR>
training<BR>
>  course which familiarizes you to all 50 states individual licenses, not to<BR>
>  mention the multitude of other state or federal government sponsored photo <BR>
ID's.<BR>
<BR>
In California clerks/waiters are only required to accept Califonia ID and <BR>
Military ID. Alien registration (green card) is not acceptable, nor is a <BR>
Passport. Other States ID is at the discretion of the store. Most people are <BR>
ignorant of this (as are some clerks) which tends to lead to all sorts of <BR>
threats. Also, technically all clerks are required to see your ID each and <BR>
every time you purchase restricted products (so if your not carded everytime <BR>
you're being extended a courtesy that could get the clerk/waiters in trouble).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:17:32 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
LKW wrote:<BR>
> I used to be a sales clerk (in the 2 yrs between GDW and SJ <BR>
> Games I worked a series of part-time minimum wage jobs), I know<BR>
> what they go through and cut them all the slack they deserve. A<BR>
> few sales clerks in ILLINOIS refused to take an ILLINOIS state<BR>
> ID, even though it was IDENTICAL to the driver's license in<BR>
> every way (except for the obvious ones). I should also mention <BR>
> that 19 out of 20 (IL or TX) give me no hassle whatsoever after<BR>
> I say: I don't have a license -- this is what I have." <BR>
<BR>
When I worked as a 7-11 clerk I had a customer get  very  annoyed<BR>
that I wouldn't accept his Scientologist ID card as a valid  form<BR>
of ID.  (It looked like a CC with a name and number but no  photo<BR>
and no way of verifying its authenticity.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:34:26 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Passports & ID<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 7:52:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I used to be a sales clerk (in the 2 yrs between GDW and SJ Games I worked <BR>
a <BR>
>  series of part-time minimum wage jobs), I know what they go through and <BR>
cut <BR>
>  them all the slack they deserve. A few sales clerks in ILLINOIS refused to <BR>
>  take an ILLINOIS state ID, even though it was IDENTICAL to the driver's <BR>
>  license in every way (except for the obvious ones). I should also mention <BR>
>  that 19 out of 20 (IL or TX) give me no hassle whatsoever after I say: I <BR>
>  don't have a license -- this is what I have." <BR>
<BR>
A lot of problem is in the training, a lot of places (at least in California) <BR>
don't send their clerks to the ABC classes, plus they are ignorant of any of <BR>
the new regulations that might have been passed. Every couple of years I've <BR>
seen new and harder restrictions placed on sales of alcohol products. <BR>
Cigerettes and related are in a somewhat grey area, but most companies treat <BR>
it the same as alcohol to cover there a**es. And most of the clerks I've seen <BR>
over the last couple of years have been ticketed because they read the date <BR>
wrong (hence the trend towards more automation of that, either a seperate <BR>
machine to check the ID or as part of the register).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Obtrav: Imagine having to have a local ID to buy some restricted goods after <BR>
someone made you the sale. You end up having the material confiscated by <BR>
customs.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
I used to be a nice guy before I worked at a convenience store......<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:00:27 -0500<BR>
From: "Jeff &Michelle Norton" <jmnorton@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:18:39 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
>Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
>Rupert wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
> On 18 Feb 00, at 9:41, dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
> > 8. The Imperial attempt to buy back all the civilian<BR>
> > owned weapons, and is amazed how many people claim that a FGMP is<BR>
a<BR>
> > valid farming implement.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Of course it is. Absolutely necessary for controlled burn-offs.<BR>
>><BR>
>Not to mention rooting out those pesky burrowing varmints...one shot<BR>
>down the hole...and if they have burrowed widely enough, plow the<BR>
>field all at once!<BR>
TNT works nice too. Although the furrows are a bit TOO deep and you<BR>
gotta space the sticks.... Wonder what TDX would do?<BR>
<BR>
Wonder when Parris and the boys are going to outlaw this type of fun<BR>
also....<BR>
<BR>
Good to see another MD'er on the list. I was beginning to think I was<BR>
the only one (ala tigger...)<BR>
<BR>
>yours,<BR>
>Michael<BR>
>- --<BR>
>Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
>herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
>Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
>| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Norton<BR>
<BR>
Life is a minefield...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:29:46 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Norton wrote:<BR>
> TNT works nice too. Although the furrows are a bit TOO deep and<BR>
> you gotta space the sticks.... Wonder what TDX would do?<BR>
<BR>
If the 3I  technology  can  create  horizontally  exploding  TDX,<BR>
wouldn't you expect a vertically exploding equivalent?  It  would<BR>
be useful in  drilling  and  post  hole  creation  (and  possibly<BR>
burrowing vermint hunting)?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:45:07 CST6CDT<BR>
From: igor@truserve.com<BR>
Subject: Website updated<BR>
<BR>
My Traveller website has gotten a few updates, particularly in the gallery <BR>
section where I have added a good number of new ships (GURPS format) and images.<BR>
<BR>
Check it out (and comment on) at:<BR>
<BR>
www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________<BR>
True Communications Corporation Your Premier ISP.<BR>
"Hometown Service with Worldwide Connectivity"<BR>
http://www.truserve.com        info@truserve.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:08:12 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: TDX and generalizations (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If the 3I  technology  can  create  horizontally  exploding  TDX,<BR>
> wouldn't you expect a vertically exploding equivalent?  It  would<BR>
> be useful in  drilling  and  post  hole  creation  (and  possibly<BR>
> burrowing vermint hunting)?<BR>
<BR>
Take this one step more. Suppose that you can locally manipulate the<BR>
gravity, say by including some gravitics in a warhead. Then you can direct<BR>
your blast in any direction you want. This could be very useful.<BR>
<BR>
If you assume that you can somehow direct blasts using gravity (Can anyone<BR>
take a stab at the physics of this?), why not assume other forces can be<BR>
used also. Maybe you can focus blasts with precision using electric fields.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:32:34 -0000<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TDX and generalizations<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> > If the 3I  technology  can  create  horizontally  exploding  TDX,<BR>
> > wouldn't you expect a vertically exploding equivalent?  It  would<BR>
> > be useful in  drilling  and  post  hole  creation  (and  possibly<BR>
> > burrowing vermint hunting)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Take this one step more. Suppose that you can locally manipulate<BR>
> the gravity, say by including some gravitics in a warhead. Then<BR>
> you can direct your blast in any direction you want. This could<BR>
> be very useful.<BR>
> <BR>
> If you assume that you can somehow direct blasts using gravity<BR>
> (Can anyone take a stab at the physics of this?), why not assume<BR>
> other forces can be used also. Maybe you can focus blasts with<BR>
> precision using electric fields.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm ... I'm seeing a sort  of  nuclear  detonation  laser  being<BR>
fired from a towed field howitzer ... for  top  aspect,  indirect<BR>
fire, energy weapon!  So you can nuc the target  with  relatively<BR>
minimal colateral damage and without  exposing  yourself  to  the<BR>
target's direct fire armament.<BR>
<BR>
On a smaller scale you could have hand grenades and similar  that<BR>
are safe for tunnel rates to use (in tunnels).<BR>
<BR>
Or, more mundanely: improve the penetration of CPR weapons ... an<BR>
HE tank-shell with the penetration of a DS shell.  Alternatively,<BR>
generic tank  shells  with  dial-a-mission  warheads  (anti-tank,<BR>
anti-personnel, etc).<BR>
<BR>
Was this what you were thinking?<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:36:00 -0600<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:06:44 -0800<BR>
> From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
> Subject: Massive conspiracy (was Re: Copyright FAQ)<BR>
><BR>
> Volker Greimann wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > >has been around forever. (Don't laugh. The lawsuit that helped end Game<BR>
> > >Designers' Workshop was similar, and about that flimsy.)<BR>
> > Details? I always wanted to know who those b@*t@&ds were. I previously<BR>
> > blamed TSR for their D.J. suit...<BR>
><BR>
> There must be more to the story than we think. A quick whois search for<BR>
> "gdw.com" shows that the domain is owned by:<BR>
><BR>
> World Savings & Loan (GDW14-DOM)<BR>
> 4101 Wiseman Boulevard<BR>
> San Antonio, TX 78251<BR>
> US<BR>
><BR>
> Note the address. Coincidence?<BR>
><BR>
> Shortly after the suit, LKW goes to work for a company notorious for its<BR>
> involvement in secret societies and conspiracies, which immediately decides<BR>
> to reprint the material of the recently demised company, making profits<BR>
> sufficient to fund the acquisition of many LEGO sets. Have you bought any<BR>
> LEGO for your kids recently? It's not cheap. There must have been a<BR>
> significant amount of money involved.<BR>
><BR>
> Could I have just found the first proof of a massive conspiracy?<BR>
<BR>
No. Absolutely not. Would everyone look over here, please, into this red light?<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. You can go about your business.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager<BR>
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society<BR>
          http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     LKW@IO.COM<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:54:55 -0600<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From:	Douglas E. Berry [SMTP:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
	> Or paid for an overpass  out of your own pocket.<BR>
<BR>
	Every time I pay taxes, Doug, I'm paying for overpasses, roads, and<BR>
a whole cartload of stuff.<BR>
<BR>
	> The government owns the roadways in the name of the people.<BR>
<BR>
	Only because the people let them do so.  the people have the final<BR>
say.<BR>
<BR>
	> If you don't like the driver's license laws, appeal to your fellow<BR>
	> "land-owners".  I think you'll find that the vast majority like<BR>
knowing<BR>
	> that the people on the road have been certified to be at least<BR>
minimally<BR>
	> competent.<BR>
<BR>
	Although true, this is not a principle that can be extended to all<BR>
facets of government policy.  Just because a 'vast majority' of people<BR>
'want' something, doesn't make it right.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:44:59 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
Wierd Laws No.2: In the UK, it is still legal to shoot a Welshman from<BR>
the walls of Chester with a crossbow. Now that one is really bizzare!<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter<BR>
> Scarrott<BR>
> Sent: 16 February 2000 22:19<BR>
> To: Trav TML<BR>
> Subject: Outdated Laws<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In the Uk in many places it is still required for yeoman to<BR>
> practise archery<BR>
> on a Saturday.  Here in Leicester it is the local Catholic<BR>
> churches duty to<BR>
> oversee this training, so a friend of mine went to the main<BR>
> catholic church<BR>
> on Saturday and asked for his archery practise.  Instant<BR>
> answer was the<BR>
> address of the local archery club which trains every<BR>
> Saturday and the phone<BR>
> number of the main instructor along with a letter giving<BR>
> him permission to<BR>
> practise free every Saturday at the club.  He gets free membership<BR>
> (Sponsored by the church) but has to sign an agreement to<BR>
> be prepared to<BR>
> serve up to 30days on call to the Church as required if the French<BR>
> Invade!!!.  His only expense is the hire of the bow and any<BR>
> arrows he<BR>
> breaks.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav : Weird old rules like this that the PC's can use to<BR>
> gain some<BR>
> unusual low Tech skills on Hi-Tech worlds.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:01:06 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/15/00 10:32 PM, frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yesterday, it became illegal in New Zealand to boil lobsters alive.<BR>
> Far too inhumane, you see.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Ministry of Agriculture & Fisheries is suggesting that instead of<BR>
> boiling them to death you should freeze them or drown them in fresh water.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, /that's/ a whole lot more humane. :/<BR>
Just how long would it take to *drown* a lobster?<BR>
Freezing. Wouldn't that harm the meat? Would it kill a lobster?<BR>
<BR>
I know boiling sounds harsh, but considering how difficult it can be to kill<BR>
such primitive critters, I think it is likely the quickest. The water does<BR>
start out boiling, they don't just dump them in and /then/  turn up the<BR>
heat.<BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't an org named "Ministry of Agriculture & /Fisheries/" know better.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Orgs in the 3I that are likewise silly?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:24:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re:  Japanese/Anime Traveller  OT?<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
Kiri wrote:<BR>
><BR>
Mitsubishi Battle Dress for females sometimes comes in the form of a <BR>
candy-colored abbreviated school or service uniform with a fluttery short <BR>
skirt and regulation white panties, and the weapons portion looks like a <BR>
candy fairy princess wand. Extra points for big, loose socks. =)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Kiri, you're too much!  You've just given me ideas for a new service<BR>
organization.<BR>
But, I'm not sure if I can deal with the "regulation white panties."   I<BR>
was thinking<BR>
along the lines of the "Devils in Skirts."          ROFLOL ;-><BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:34:24 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Feb 00, at 23:34, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/18/00 3:48:50 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
> rboleyn@paradise.net.nz writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Brian shoot pigs and cattle and the same thing happens. I don't <BR>
>  recommend being anywhere near a 2-year old bull that's just been killed<BR>
>  this way, as the feet will quite easily put large dents in you while they<BR>
>  thrash around. >><BR>
> <BR>
> I was always amazed by the Kosher butchers. They stood NEXT to the animal<BR>
> and slit its' throat with a razor sharp knife. I've never witnessed one,<BR>
> but I wonder how they're not killed by the dying animal...<BR>
<BR>
Well while a bleeding animal may struggle when it relises you're <BR>
killing it, at least it doesn't thrash around as all the nerves go <BR>
crazy.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:39:49 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Feb 00, at 0:44, Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Wierd Laws No.2: In the UK, it is still legal to shoot a Welshman from the<BR>
> walls of Chester with a crossbow. Now that one is really bizzare!<BR>
<BR>
Must tell my sister that - she's living in Chester at the moment.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:41:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Eric B. Smith" <ericbsmith@altavista.net><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
"Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> > EricBSmith:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > << To be fair to all those sales clerks, you have to realise that they're<BR>
just<BR>
> >  protecting their own asses here.  >><BR>
<BR>
>From WHAT?  When I show you a passport it's got the US Government Federal<BR>
> Seal on it and mine is all covered with stamps from Japan Immigration.<BR>
> Hello?  It couldn't possibly be anyone else's.<BR>
<BR>
Don't know.  To be honest I have never seen a passport (US or other, I've never<BR>
worked on border checking them nor have I ever left the country, so I've never<BR>
needed one), and would have to tripple check it before I sold someone alcohol or<BR>
tobbacco based solely on it.  Those seals may be nifty and all, but if it's<BR>
anything like the NY Drivers Liscense "official" seals it's probably not too<BR>
hard to forge if you know what you're doing, especially if you start out with a<BR>
valid one and modify it as needed.<BR>
<BR>
> And don't give me all that stuff about drinking laws.  I may not look it,<BR>
> but I'm 35.  I look around 25 according to most people and I occasionally<BR>
> get carded, but that's not when I have the problem, I have the problem<BR>
> when I'm trying to cash an effing CHECK!!!  (I've never had someone refuse<BR>
> a passport when they were carding me.  Even for buying cheap sake and<BR>
> beer.)<BR>
><BR>
> I once had a BANK official refuse to take a frakkin' passport-- at my own<BR>
> effing BANK!!!  He gave me some kind of noise about people buying fake<BR>
> passports in the Hispanic sections of town.<BR>
<BR>
Forgeries are known to happen.<BR>
<BR>
> But my picture is on the<BR>
> passport and my signature and all that other good stuff and they have<BR>
> records of all that stuff to match with.<BR>
<BR>
The picture and signature would be part of the forgery if it were, in fact, a<BR>
forgery.  As for them having your signature on record, so what?  If they dug<BR>
everyone's signature out to verify every Check they cashed the whole Check<BR>
processing system we use would grind to a hault.  They're just not set up to<BR>
pull out that information.<BR>
<BR>
> I went to another branch of the bank and had no problem.<BR>
<BR>
Different clerk.  The Clerks are free to refuse a sale/withdrawl/whatever at<BR>
their own convenience *BECAUSE* every time they make that<BR>
sale/withdrawl/whatever it's the Clerks ass on the line (both from the laws and<BR>
their own employer).<BR>
<BR>
> That yahoo was insisting that a California DL is<BR>
> harder to get and more reliable than a US passport and I happen to know<BR>
> that anyone who can really get you a fake passport can also get you a fake<BR>
> DL.<BR>
<BR>
True.  Of course, that "yahoo" has probably seen many times as many DL's than<BR>
passports.  He's far more likely to recognize a forged DL than Passport, since<BR>
he's far more familiar with it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
EricBSmith   \\\///   SmithEricB<BR>
@stny.rr.com  \\//  @hotmail.com<BR>
@altavista.net \/  AIM/MMS Names<BR>
<BR>
Telekinesis: It's the thought that counts.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:47:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Eric B. Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > I went to another branch of the bank and had no problem.<BR>
> <BR>
> Different clerk.  The Clerks are free to refuse a sale/withdrawl/whatever at<BR>
> their own convenience *BECAUSE* every time they make that<BR>
> sale/withdrawl/whatever it's the Clerks ass on the line (both from the laws and<BR>
> their own employer).<BR>
> <BR>
The bank almost lost my business.<BR>
<BR>
> True.  Of course, that "yahoo" has probably seen many times as many DL's than<BR>
> passports.  He's far more likely to recognize a forged DL than Passport, since<BR>
> he's far more familiar with it.<BR>
> <BR>
BUT I DON'T DRIVE.  Driving should not be a requirement for getting your<BR>
checks cashed.  I live in San Francisco.  Parking spaces here cost what<BR>
apartments cost where I came from.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:09:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Eric B. Smith" <ericbsmith@altavista.net><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
"Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The bank almost lost my business.<BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure my actions have cost my employer (Hess) some business too.<BR>
However, when it's my ass on the line my employer has no right to tell me "you<BR>
must accept any form of photo ID, even if you're not familiar with it".  If they<BR>
had tried that with me when I hired on I would have quit almost immediately,<BR>
given the consequences of making the wrong sale.  I've no idea what the<BR>
consequences are for a cashier for cashing bad checks, but I'm willing to bet<BR>
they can include getting fired.  One mistake can cost the bank several hundred<BR>
dollars, and almost all business are not happy when an employee costs them<BR>
money.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> BUT I DON'T DRIVE.  Driving should not be a requirement for getting your<BR>
> checks cashed.  I live in San Francisco.  Parking spaces here cost what<BR>
> apartments cost where I came from.<BR>
<BR>
That's fine.  Again, though, when ninety-some-odd-percent of customers have a DL<BR>
or state issued Photo ID and you don't, you shouldn't get mad because the clerk<BR>
is wary of your "off the wall" ID.  The clerk cannot be expected to be familiar<BR>
with the 50+ different types of government issued photo ID available in the US,<BR>
even if the business' policy includes accepting all of them.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
EricBSmith   \\\///   SmithEricB<BR>
@stny.rr.com  \\//  @hotmail.com<BR>
@altavista.net \/  AIM/MMS Names<BR>
<BR>
Telekinesis: It's the thought that counts.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1942<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1943</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/18/00 3:22:54 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 18 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1943<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Rourke's Landing Bestiary (long)<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
RE: directional explosives<BR>
Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
RE: directional explosives<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
Re: directional explosives<BR>
RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
Brubeks<BR>
DGP Traveller Digest on offer in Mint condition<BR>
Regards Directional Explosives; TDX<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:56:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff Norton wrote:<BR>
>> TNT works nice too. Although the furrows are a bit TOO deep and<BR>
>> you gotta space the sticks.... Wonder what TDX would do?<BR>
><BR>
> If the 3I  technology  can  create  horizontally  exploding  TDX,<BR>
> wouldn't you expect a vertically exploding equivalent?  It  would<BR>
> be useful in  drilling  and  post  hole  creation  (and  possibly<BR>
> burrowing vermint hunting)?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I and somer friends concluded *years* back that the proper<BR>
means of dealing with burrowing rodents is FAE. It'll spread nicely,<BR>
and if the F(uel) is properly chosen, you get a *wide* explosive range,<BR>
which helps offset diffusion problems...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:28:16 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, I and somer friends concluded *years* back that the proper<BR>
> means of dealing with burrowing rodents is FAE. It'll spread nicely,<BR>
> and if the F(uel) is properly chosen, you get a *wide* explosive range,<BR>
> which helps offset diffusion problems...<BR>
<BR>
Nah, do it properly.  Use a really really low power meson gun -- just barely<BR>
enough power to inflict 10,000 rads on everything in the area down to a<BR>
depth of ten meters.  Should also do a fine job of killing off unwanted weeds;<BR>
soil bacteria might survive unless you up the yield considerably.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:38:17 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
< Bill Murray >  oh, Oh, It's in the hole!<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> If the 3I  technology  can  create  horizontally  exploding  TDX,<BR>
>> wouldn't you expect a vertically exploding equivalent?  It  would<BR>
>> be useful in  drilling  and  post  hole  creation  (and  possibly<BR>
>> burrowing vermint hunting)?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:54:41 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Rourke's Landing Bestiary (long)<BR>
<BR>
This is, so far, the output to GT Bestiary. Any comments or suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
===========================================================<BR>
Rourke's Landing Ecological Report<BR>
<BR>
Ecological Profile<BR>
Ecosphere: complex animals (native life)<BR>
<BR>
Grassland Encounter Table<BR>
Probablility of Encounter on 12 or less<BR>
Roll	Animal Encounter<BR>
3	Grazer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 6, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 17/9, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Blunt teeth (0 crushing), skin (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
4	Grazer (large group, 1d+2)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 12, IQ: 3, HT: 17/7, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Horns (0 impaling), butting horns (0 crushing), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
5	Grazer (large herd, 6d)<BR>
	ST: 16, DX: 10, IQ: 4, HT: 15, Mass: 136 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Horns (1d+1 impaling), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
6	Grazer (small herd, 3d)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 11, IQ: 3, HT: 15/6, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-4 cutting), spear (1d-1 impaling), heavy scales<BR>
(PD/DR: 1/1)<BR>
7	Grazer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 16, DX: 10, IQ: 3, HT: 15, Mass: 136 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Trample (0 crushing), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
8	Grazer (small herd, 3d)<BR>
	ST: 100, DX: 12, IQ: 5, HT: 15/32, Mass: 2,181 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Butting horns (12d-1 crushing), blunt teeth (5d+2 crushing),<BR>
defensive poison, very thin fur (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
9	Grazer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 13/4, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Butting horns (0 crushing), skin (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
10	Grazer (large herd, 6d)<BR>
	ST: 40, DX: 11, IQ: 3, HT: 15, Mass: 545 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Big horns (4d+1 impaling or 8d+2 cutting), smashing tail (4d+1<BR>
crushing), defensive poison, skin (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
11	Hunter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 16, DX: 11, IQ: 4, HT: 13, Mass: 136 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d+1 cutting), very thin fur (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
12	Gatherer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 10, DX: 8, IQ: 5, HT: 17, Mass: 68 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 4<BR>
	Claws (1d-2 impaling), skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
13	Gatherer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 17/7, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-4 cutting), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
14	Chaser (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 25, DX: 12, IQ: 5, HT: 17, Mass: 272 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d+2 cutting), fangs (1d+2 impaling), skin (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
15	Chaser (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 40, DX: 10, IQ: 4, HT: 15, Mass: 545 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Sharp teeth (2d+1 cutting), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
16	Chaser (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 40, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 17/24, Mass: 545 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (2d+1 cutting), butting horns (4d+1 crushing), feathers<BR>
(PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
17	Herder (small herd, 3d)<BR>
	ST: 16, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 15, Mass: 136 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Fangs (1d+1 impaling), very thin fur (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
18	Chaser (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 6, DX: 13, IQ: 5, HT: 16/8, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Claws (1d-4 impaling), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
<BR>
Oldport Ruins Encounter Table<BR>
Probablility of Encounter on 9 or less<BR>
Roll	Animal Encounter<BR>
3	Filter (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 25, DX: 11, IQ: 3, HT: 15, Mass: 272 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Butting horns (2d+2 crushing), offensive poison, skin with mucous<BR>
(PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
4	Filter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 10, DX: 12, IQ: 5, HT: 17, Mass: 68 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Blunt teeth (1d-5 crushing), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
5	Filter (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 16, DX: 10, IQ: 5, HT: 15, Mass: 136 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Horns (1d+1 impaling), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
6	Browser (large group, 1d+2)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 13, IQ: 5, HT: 15/6, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Trample (0 crushing), defensive poison, quills (PD/DR: 1/1)<BR>
7	Flying Browser (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 1, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 13/2, Mass: 1 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Smashing tail (0 crushing), smashing tail (0 crushing), defensive<BR>
poison, scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
8	Filter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 2, DX: 12, IQ: 2, HT: 15/4, Mass: 4 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Spear (1d-2 impaling), spear (1d-2 impaling), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
9	Browser (small herd, 3d)<BR>
	ST: 25, DX: 11, IQ: 2, HT: 15, Mass: 272 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Blunt teeth (1d-1 crushing), quills (PD/DR: 1/1)<BR>
10	Browser (large group, 1d+2)<BR>
	ST: 2, DX: 11, IQ: 3, HT: 15/4, Mass: 4 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Smashing tail (0 crushing), horns (0 impaling), thick fur (PD/DR: 1/1)<BR>
11	Gatherer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 11, IQ: 3, HT: 14/5, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Claws (0 impaling), downy feathers (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
12	Flying Hunter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 1, DX: 13, IQ: 4, HT: 15/2, Mass: 0 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Claws (0 impaling), downy feathers (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
13	Flying Gatherer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 1, DX: 13, IQ: 2, HT: 13/1, Mass: 0 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-5 cutting), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
14	Scavenger (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 2, DX: 13, IQ: 4, HT: 14/3, Mass: 4 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Fangs (1d-5 impaling), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
15	Scavenger (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 3, DX: 14, IQ: 4, HT: 15/5, Mass: 8 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 7<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-4 cutting), skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
16	Scavenger (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 2, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 14/3, Mass: 4 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-5 cutting), downy feathers (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
17	Scavenger (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 6, DX: 12, IQ: 3, HT: 17/9, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Blunt teeth (0 crushing), fangs (1d-3 impaling), skin with mucous<BR>
(PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
18	Herder (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 1, DX: 13, IQ: 3, HT: 14/2, Mass: 1 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Claws (0 impaling), downy feathers (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
<BR>
Temperate Forest Encounter Table<BR>
Probablility of Encounter on 12 or less<BR>
Roll	Animal Encounter<BR>
3	Browser (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 10, DX: 10, IQ: 5, HT: 15, Mass: 68 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Horns (1d-2 impaling), smashing tail (1d-2 crushing), quills<BR>
(PD/DR: 1/1)<BR>
4	Filter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 25, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 15, Mass: 272 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Tusks (2d+2 impaling or 5d-1 cutting), butting horns (2d+2<BR>
crushing), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
5	Browser (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 11, IQ: 4, HT: 17/7, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Trample (0 crushing), thick fur (PD/DR: 1/1)<BR>
6	Browser (large group, 1d+2)<BR>
	ST: 1, DX: 12, IQ: 2, HT: 13/1, Mass: 0 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Trample (0 crushing), defensive poison, skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
7	Filter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 10, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 15, Mass: 68 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Smashing tail (1d-2 crushing), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
8	Filter (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 15/6, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Spear (1d-1 impaling), skin (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
9	Filter (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 2, DX: 12, IQ: 3, HT: 15/4, Mass: 4 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Trample (0 crushing), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
10	Filter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 6, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 13/6, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5<BR>
	Blunt teeth (0 crushing), blunt teeth (0 crushing), feathers<BR>
(PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
11	Gatherer (small herd, 3d)<BR>
	ST: 1, DX: 12, IQ: 3, HT: 17/2, Mass: 0 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Claws (0 impaling), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
12	Hunter (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 4, DX: 12, IQ: 3, HT: 16/6, Mass: 16 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Large claws (0 impaling or 0 cutting), fangs (1d-4 impaling), skin<BR>
(PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
13	Gatherer (small herd, 3d)<BR>
	ST: 150, DX: 9, IQ: 5, HT: 16/44, Mass: 4,090 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 4<BR>
	Butting horns (18d crushing), offensive poison, very thin fur<BR>
(PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
14	Scavenger (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 6, DX: 13, IQ: 2, HT: 15/8, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-3 cutting), large claws (1d-4 impaling or 1d-4<BR>
cutting), skin (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
15	Trapper (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 6, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 14/7, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Claws (1d-4 impaling), fangs (1d-3 impaling), skin with mucous<BR>
(PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
16	Trapper (solitary, 1)<BR>
	ST: 16, DX: 13, IQ: 5, HT: 16, Mass: 136 kgs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Claws (1d+1 impaling), very thin fur (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
17	Scavenger (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
	ST: 10, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 13/8, Mass: 68 kgs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-2 cutting), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)<BR>
18	Scavenger (pair-bonding, 1d-3)<BR>
	ST: 6, DX: 13, IQ: 5, HT: 15/8, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6<BR>
	Sharp teeth (1d-3 cutting), skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Prior, 2000.  (Designed with GT Bestiary.  Robert Prior, 2000.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:44:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Eric B. Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> That's fine.  Again, though, when ninety-some-odd-percent of customers<BR>
> have a DL or state issued Photo ID and you don't, you shouldn't get<BR>
> mad because the clerk is wary of your "off the wall" ID.  The clerk<BR>
> cannot be expected to be familiar<BR>
<BR>
You know, I work for the state university system and I have state issued<BR>
university photo ID but I don't expect them to recognize that, Eric,<BR>
because there are lots of different kinds.<BR>
<BR>
But I don't think that expecting a US PASSPORT to be accepted as ID within<BR>
the US is unreasonable, and I don't appreciate your telling me how I<BR>
should feel about it when I am in a bind.  Do you really think people can<BR>
control whether or not they feel angry especially when some clerk gets<BR>
officious and snotty (and many do)?  You can only control what you do when<BR>
you are mad, not getting mad itself.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:58:10 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 3:51:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Article 1, section 8, clause 7:<BR>
 <BR>
 To establish post offices and post roads.<BR>
 <BR>
 Any road used by the USPS is a post road. >><BR>
<BR>
Doug; are you a federalist? I interpret your interpretation (pompous; ain't <BR>
I....:-) ) as implying the Feds own (or at least control) EVERY single square <BR>
inch of pavement that a USPS van can park on. I find that DISTURBING...It's <BR>
bad enough living in a state that's 85% owned by the feds...:-(<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Can the Imperials pull off this b******t?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:05:55 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: directional explosives<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
>Take this one step more. Suppose that you can locally manipulate<BR>
>the gravity, say by including some gravitics in a warhead. Then<BR>
>you can direct your blast in any direction you want. This could<BR>
>be very useful.<BR>
>If you assume that you can somehow direct blasts using gravity<BR>
>(Can anyone take a stab at the physics of this?), why not assume<BR>
>other forces can be used also. Maybe you can focus blasts with<BR>
>precision using electric fields.<BR>
<BR>
	I expect that this would involve a rather high G.  kilo-Gs?<BR>
	Mega-Gs?  Giga-Gs?  Anyways, a lot.  That much G control<BR>
	would make an awsome weapon in itself.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:10:02 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Lobster Rights<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 8:36:40 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
rboleyn@paradise.net.nz writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Well while a bleeding animal may struggle when it relises you're <BR>
 killing it, at least it doesn't thrash around as all the nerves go <BR>
 crazy.<BR>
   >><BR>
<BR>
ahh....gotcha<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:34:12 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Feb 00, at 12:47, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Eric B. Smith wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > I went to another branch of the bank and had no problem.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Different clerk.  The Clerks are free to refuse a<BR>
> > sale/withdrawl/whatever at their own convenience *BECAUSE* every time<BR>
> > they make that sale/withdrawl/whatever it's the Clerks ass on the line<BR>
> > (both from the laws and their own employer).<BR>
> > <BR>
> The bank almost lost my business.<BR>
> <BR>
> > True.  Of course, that "yahoo" has probably seen many times as many DL's<BR>
> > than passports.  He's far more likely to recognize a forged DL than<BR>
> > Passport, since he's far more familiar with it.<BR>
> > <BR>
> BUT I DON'T DRIVE.  Driving should not be a requirement for getting your<BR>
> checks cashed.  I live in San Francisco.  Parking spaces here cost what<BR>
> apartments cost where I came from.<BR>
<BR>
It's getting that way here in NZ. The police, along with the pubs, etc <BR>
have decided in their infinite wisdom that only Drivers licences, <BR>
Passports and a special card they've put out are proof of age for <BR>
cigarettes and alcohol. Firearms licences which are also photo ID with <BR>
your birth date on them can't be used because the police say so.<BR>
<BR>
at annoys me is that there's no law saying that this is the case, just <BR>
police prejeduce against firearms owners, and I don't see why just <BR>
because I don't drive I should have to have a special bit of paper just <BR>
to buy a few beers. Mind you nobody's actually asked me for ID yet (I <BR>
guess there are some advantages to being over 30).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:34:12 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Feb 00, at 12:56, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Jeff Norton wrote:<BR>
> >> TNT works nice too. Although the furrows are a bit TOO deep and<BR>
> >> you gotta space the sticks.... Wonder what TDX would do?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > If the 3I  technology  can  create  horizontally  exploding  TDX,<BR>
> > wouldn't you expect a vertically exploding equivalent?  It  would<BR>
> > be useful in  drilling  and  post  hole  creation  (and  possibly<BR>
> > burrowing vermint hunting)?<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, I and somer friends concluded *years* back that the proper<BR>
> means of dealing with burrowing rodents is FAE. It'll spread nicely,<BR>
> and if the F(uel) is properly chosen, you get a *wide* explosive range,<BR>
> which helps offset diffusion problems...<BR>
<BR>
My father reckons the same thing, and figures that with the right moix <BR>
you get the added bonus that the FAE will consume the oxygen in the <BR>
burrows. Petrol works well in rat holes, but it's hard on any buildings <BR>
situated over the burrow.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:30:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Eric B. Smith" <ericbsmith@altavista.net><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
"Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Eric B. Smith wrote:<BR>
> You know, I work for the state university system and I have state issued<BR>
> university photo ID but I don't expect them to recognize that, Eric,<BR>
> because there are lots of different kinds.<BR>
><BR>
> But I don't think that expecting a US PASSPORT to be accepted as ID within<BR>
> the US is unreasonable,<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I do think it is unreasonable.  A US Passport is rarely used within<BR>
the US, as it is rarely needed within the US.  In fact, it's a rather uncommon<BR>
form of ID to be handed (in fact, after working register for 4 months I can<BR>
safely say I've _never_ been handed one, though I have been handed some other<BR>
interesting forms of ID).<BR>
<BR>
> and I don't appreciate your telling me how I<BR>
> should feel about it when I am in a bind.<BR>
<BR>
You can feel however you want.  You don't need anyone's permission to do so.<BR>
However, this kind of thing really insn't worth getting as upset as you seem to<BR>
be over it, even now, at least IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Do you really think people can<BR>
> control whether or not they feel angry especially when some clerk gets<BR>
> officious and snotty (and many do)?<BR>
<BR>
Customers can be rather snotty too.  In fact, in the couple of bad incidents<BR>
I've had with customers, I thinks it's fairly safe to say that the attitudes by<BR>
both of us was what generated the situation.  It takes two to tango.<BR>
<BR>
>You can only control what you do when<BR>
> you are mad, not getting mad itself.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
EricBSmith   \\\///   SmithEricB<BR>
@stny.rr.com  \\//  @hotmail.com<BR>
@altavista.net \/  AIM/MMS Names<BR>
<BR>
Telekinesis: It's the thought that counts.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 11:35:14 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: directional explosives<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Feb 00, at 17:05, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> >Take this one step more. Suppose that you can locally manipulate<BR>
> >the gravity, say by including some gravitics in a warhead. Then<BR>
> >you can direct your blast in any direction you want. This could<BR>
> >be very useful.<BR>
> >If you assume that you can somehow direct blasts using gravity<BR>
> >(Can anyone take a stab at the physics of this?), why not assume<BR>
> >other forces can be used also. Maybe you can focus blasts with<BR>
> >precision using electric fields.<BR>
> <BR>
>  I expect that this would involve a rather high G.  kilo-Gs?<BR>
>  Mega-Gs?  Giga-Gs?  Anyways, a lot.  That much G control<BR>
>  would make an awsome weapon in itself.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that that is why TDX quietly dissapeared in TNE.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:50:25 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>In California clerks/waiters are only required to accept Califonia ID and<BR>
>Military ID. Alien registration (green card) is not acceptable, nor is a<BR>
>Passport. Other States ID is at the discretion of the store. Most people are<BR>
>ignorant of this (as are some clerks) which tends to lead to all sorts of<BR>
>threats. Also, technically all clerks are required to see your ID each and<BR>
>every time you purchase restricted products (so if your not carded everytime<BR>
>you're being extended a courtesy that could get the clerk/waiters in trouble).<BR>
><BR>
>Bryan<BR>
<BR>
Meep. Wrong Answer. Please try again!<BR>
<BR>
The passport, by federal law, is valid identification for ALL PURPOSES.<BR>
(Read one sometime... US ones specify it!) Same with any federal goverment<BR>
ID. There was a segment on (IIRC) Dateline (NBC) and another on Justice<BR>
files about the problems with forgeries, and pointed out the same citation<BR>
as is on elections materials in alaska. You CAN NOT legally refuse to<BR>
accept a passport tendered for identification purposes within the US.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, this violates the full faith and credit rules: It means that<BR>
California does not place full faith and credit in the identiy documents<BR>
issued by other states, nor by the feds; this is clearly unconstitutional,<BR>
as If it does not constitute valid identification, it cannot grant the<BR>
right to drive.<BR>
<BR>
Also, at least in Oregon, Washington, and Alaska, DMV will happily run a<BR>
D/L for validity, or describe it, to clerks (I've had this happen. Once.)<BR>
<BR>
I had my Government Employee Card refused by an Airline. I informed them<BR>
they could either call the US Marshals to verify the type, or call the FAA,<BR>
or call my agency's director, btu they would either accept it or I WOULD<BR>
PRESS FEDERAL CHARGES. Which the ID clearly stated I was entitled to do. As<BR>
did the citation of the US Code, which also covered passports.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:52:31 +1100<BR>
From: "Rob Knight" <rkn@melbpc.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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<BR>
9)   You need to roll for success on the task for TL15 boomerang =<BR>
throwing (and fail critically, receiving a blow to the back of the head)<BR>
<BR>
10)  All PCs are continually troubled by flies - no matter what part of =<BR>
the Imperium they are in<BR>
<BR>
11a)  A major war starts, devastating a planet's environment and killing =<BR>
millions of sentient lifeforms,  originated by a PC discussion about =<BR>
which is the best Aussie rules football team (and we all know that's =<BR>
Geelong, don't we)!<BR>
<BR>
11b) A major war starts, as above, originated by a PC discussion about =<BR>
which is the best football code in Australia (Rugby, or Aussie rules - =<BR>
and I'm not touching that one at all for fear of being attacked by Irate =<BR>
New South Welshmen or Queenslanders)!<BR>
<BR>
12) All activity is ceased (critical repair to the jump drive, fighting =<BR>
off teleporting Zhodani Commandoes, etc) when a cricket match is =<BR>
broadcast (especially if it involves Poms, and ashes)!<BR>
<BR>
13) You'd rather be down at the beach!<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
- -----------<BR>
 ,--._|\     Rob Knight    Melton South, Victoria, Australia.<BR>
/  Oz  \   Home             rkn@melbpc.org.au<BR>
\_,--.x/    Work             rob.knight@dhs.vic.gov.au<BR>
- ------------    Member of Melbourne PC Users Group  --------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
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<BR>
<DIV>9)&nbsp;&nbsp; You need to=20<BR>
roll&nbsp;for success on the task for TL15 boomerang throwing (and fail=20<BR>
critically, receiving a blow to the back of the head)</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>10)&nbsp; All PCs are =<BR>
continually=20<BR>
troubled by flies - no matter what part of the Imperium they are =<BR>
in</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>11a)&nbsp; A major&nbsp;war =<BR>
starts,=20<BR>
devastating a&nbsp;planet's environment and killing millions of sentient =<BR>
<BR>
lifeforms,&nbsp;&nbsp;originated by a PC discussion about which is the =<BR>
best=20<BR>
Aussie rules football team (and we all know that's Geelong, don't=20<BR>
we)!</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>11b) A major war starts, as =<BR>
above,=20<BR>
originated by a PC discussion about which is the best football code in =<BR>
Australia=20<BR>
(Rugby, or Aussie rules - and I'm not touching that one at all for fear =<BR>
of being=20<BR>
attacked by Irate New South Welshmen or Queenslanders)!</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>12) All activity is ceased =<BR>
(critical=20<BR>
repair to the jump drive, fighting off teleporting Zhodani Commandoes, =<BR>
etc) when=20<BR>
a cricket match is broadcast (especially if it involves&nbsp;Poms,=20<BR>
and&nbsp;ashes)!</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>13) You'd rather be down at =<BR>
the=20<BR>
beach!</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Rob</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>-----------<BR>
&nbsp;,--._|\&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Rob=20Knight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Melton South, Victoria, Australia.<BR>
/&nbsp; =Oz&nbsp;=20 \&nbsp;&nbsp;=20 Home&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb= sp; <A=20href=3D"mailto:rkn@melbpc.org.au">rkn@melbpc.org.au<BR>
\_,--.x/&nbsp;=&nbsp;&nbsp;=20Work&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=sp; <A=20href=3D"mailto:rob.knight@dhs.vic.gov.au">rob.knight@dhs.vic.gov.au<B=R>------------&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20Member of Melbourne PC Users Group&nbsp; =- --------<BR>
</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF7ABF.09E359A0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:53:24 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: directional explosives<BR>
<BR>
Regards directional explosives while I may be coming in late on this and I<BR>
must have missed the orginal post I seem to remember that there was a side<BR>
article on a directional explosive in one of the early Journals (JTAS).  Can<BR>
any one supply the citation?  No it's not hush-a-boom, that was from Rocky<BR>
and Bullwinkle.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:57:34 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
At 16:10 -0500 18/2/00, "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Wierd Laws No.2: In the UK, it is still legal to shoot a Welshman from<BR>
>the walls of Chester with a crossbow. Now that one is really bizzare!<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't happen that often.<BR>
<BR>
Mark, are you near Chester in the UK?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:07:17 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
There are a few of us at Brubeks at the moment...<BR>
<BR>
Dom 2300 hrs UK<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:19:51 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: DGP Traveller Digest on offer in Mint condition<BR>
<BR>
Howdy all,<BR>
   I have recently come into a whole slew of DGP Traveller Digest items.  <BR>
Would anyone be interested?  I have Traveller Digest # 6 20 21 as well <BR>
MegaTraveller Journal #3.   All are in MINT condition save MTJ#3 has a large <BR>
crease.<BR>
   Also on offer is the complete Megatraveller series in Near Mint <BR>
condition.<BR>
   Trading is possible but you must be resposible for your own postage.  <BR>
Good luck.  It's kafka47 signing off.<BR>
   All interested parties contact:  Boris Cibic at rainbow7@netcom.ca<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:10:36 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Regards Directional Explosives; TDX<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01BF7A3B.74D2E2A0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the previous message just read further TDX was what I had in =<BR>
mind.<BR>
<BR>
Sound of palm slapping forehead.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01BF7A3B.74D2E2A0<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><BR>
<BR>
<HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>Sorry for the previous message just =<BR>
read further=20<BR>
TDX was what I had in mind.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Sound of palm slapping =<BR>
forehead.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Dan</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01BF7A3B.74D2E2A0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1943<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1944</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 18 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1944<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Radiation doses (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
Re: Radiation doses (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Brubeks<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
Re: Radiation doses (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Brubeks<BR>
Re: Brubeks<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
Re: Brubeks<BR>
Fool for a client (was a digest header)<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when...<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
Re: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:30:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Radiation doses (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nah, do it properly.  Use a really really low power meson gun -- just<BR>
barely<BR>
> enough power to inflict 10,000 rads on everything in the area down to a<BR>
> depth of ten meters.  Should also do a fine job of killing off unwanted<BR>
weeds;<BR>
> soil bacteria might survive unless you up the yield considerably.<BR>
<BR>
This reminds me of when I was in the Army. To assure interoperability with<BR>
our friends, allies, and the French, we changed our radiation units from<BR>
rads to centi-Grays (cGy). I don't know how many times I heard "Sir, I just<BR>
don't get these centi-Grays." The conversion rate? 1 to 1. We even had a<BR>
conversion chart to use. I think it was GTA 3-6-something. I even gave<BR>
classes on its use.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:42:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Radiation doses (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> This reminds me of when I was in the Army. To assure interoperability with<BR>
> our friends, allies, and the French, we changed our radiation units from<BR>
> rads to centi-Grays (cGy). I don't know how many times I heard "Sir, I just<BR>
> don't get these centi-Grays." The conversion rate? 1 to 1. We even had a<BR>
> conversion chart to use. I think it was GTA 3-6-something. I even gave<BR>
> classes on its use.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...fear converting from cgs units (rads = ergs/gram) to mks units (grays = joules/kilogram) and then choosing to use a nice weird unit such as centigrays.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:49:16 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:05:38 -0500 (EST), Steve Daniels<BR>
<stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Great.  John, let's see that essay tomorrow, and please be sure<BR>
>> to follow standard citation form in referring to canon.<BR>
<BR>
>No!!  Not the Blue Book from Harvard!<BR>
<BR>
Should I even ask about the Bloo Book from Harvard?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:04:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:58 PM 2/18/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 2/18/00 3:51:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
>gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Any road used by the USPS is a post road. >><BR>
><BR>
>Doug; are you a federalist? I interpret your interpretation (pompous; ain't <BR>
>I....:-) ) as implying the Feds own (or at least control) EVERY single <BR>
>square inch of pavement that a USPS van can park on. I find that <BR>
>DISTURBING...It's bad enough living in a state that's 85% owned by the <BR>
>feds...:-(<BR>
<BR>
Having seen the results of the last great attwempt at an excess of states<BR>
rights, I am of two very different minds on the subject. Either:<BR>
<BR>
Acknowledge that the Federal government is the prime mover, shaker, and<BR>
source of funding, or:<BR>
<BR>
Split the Union into smaller nations that can self-govern without needing<BR>
Washington. The Pacific states, if formed into a new country, would have<BR>
the fifth largest GNP in the world. All the tax dollars would stay close to<BR>
home.<BR>
<BR>
>Ob Trav: Can the Imperials pull off this b******t?<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium rules the space between the stars is *very* vague, as are the<BR>
triggers for Imperial intervention.<BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:07:18<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
At 11:07 PM 2/18/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>There are a few of us at Brubeks at the moment...<BR>
<BR>
Guys, where is this? EFnet? DalNet?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:12:05<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
At 05:30 PM 2/18/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, I do think it is unreasonable.  A US Passport is rarely used<BR>
>within the US, as it is rarely needed within the US.  In fact, it's a rather <BR>
>uncommon form of ID to be handed (in fact, after working register for 4 <BR>
>months I can safely say I've _never_ been handed one, though I have been <BR>
>handed some other interesting forms of ID).<BR>
<BR>
A passport is one of only two forms of ID that are legally used in all<BR>
fifty states. The other is a goverment service ID card. The states accept<BR>
DL's as ID. Passports are unique to the idividual, and the punishment for<BR>
forging one is a fairly hefty 10 yrs/10,000 dollar fine.<BR>
<BR>
>You can feel however you want.  You don't need anyone's permission to do so.<BR>
>However, this kind of thing really insn't worth getting as upset as you<BR>
seem >to be over it, even now, at least IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Telling people what they should do with only part of the information tends<BR>
to do that. I drop off people at the airport everyday for domestic flights<BR>
who use their passports for gate ID.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:14:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
<BR>
At 12:36 PM 2/18/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>No. Absolutely not. Would everyone look over here, please, into this red<BR>
>light?<BR>
><BR>
>Thank you. You can go about your business.<BR>
<BR>
<Loren realizes to late he mis-set the dial on his flashy-thingy..><BR>
<BR>
It's too bad about GDW, but I have real high hopes for Marc Miller's<BR>
Traveller.. anybody know who's doing the cover art?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:17:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Radiation doses (was Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:30 PM 2/18/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This reminds me of when I was in the Army. To assure interoperability with<BR>
>our friends, allies, and the French,<BR>
<BR>
*SPLORT* Oh, man I needed that!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:07:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> But my picture is on the<BR>
>> passport and my signature and all that other good stuff and they have<BR>
>> records of all that stuff to match with.<BR>
><BR>
> The picture and signature would be part of the forgery if it were, in fact, a<BR>
> forgery.  As for them having your signature on record, so what?  If they dug<BR>
> everyone's signature out to verify every Check they cashed the whole Check<BR>
> processing system we use would grind to a hault.  They're just not set up to<BR>
> pull out that information.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but that's *exactly* what they do if you present a questionable<BR>
check at the branch where your account is. They go back to the file<BR>
cabinet and pull the signatre card.<BR>
<BR>
This only applies when you want to *cash* a check...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:24:07 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Wierd Laws No.2: In the UK, it is still legal to shoot a Welshman from<BR>
> the walls of Chester with a crossbow. Now that one is really bizzare!<BR>
<BR>
But surely that would violate some other laws, which is another way<BR>
that old laws get effectively extinguished.  Example:  the state<BR>
constitution<BR>
of Kentucky allows unconcealed weapons to be carried.  However, try<BR>
that in town and it is a "disturbing the peace" citation at the very<BR>
least.<BR>
So, assuming the UK has any laws making it a crime to purposefully<BR>
inflict injury on anyone, including Welshmen, that law above is no longer<BR>
in effect, i.e., it isn't the law anymore.  That it remains on the books<BR>
is<BR>
irrelevant; later laws trumps the older ones.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:29:52 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/18/00 3:51:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!,<BR>
> gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << Article 1, section 8, clause 7:<BR>
><BR>
>  To establish post offices and post roads.<BR>
><BR>
>  Any road used by the USPS is a post road. >><BR>
><BR>
> Doug; are you a federalist? I interpret your interpretation (pompous; ain't<BR>
> I....:-) ) as implying the Feds own (or at least control) EVERY single square<BR>
> inch of pavement that a USPS van can park on. I find that DISTURBING...It's<BR>
> bad enough living in a state that's 85% owned by the feds...:-(<BR>
><BR>
> Ob Trav: Can the Imperials pull off this b******t?<BR>
<BR>
It depends where thier guns are.<BR>
There is a similar provision in international law concerning water<BR>
navigation.  Any water way that is 'navigable' is an international<BR>
waterway.  That means that one could sail up the Mississippi<BR>
River all the way upto and past St. Paul, Minnesota and still<BR>
be in international waters.<BR>
<BR>
But that doesn't mean US laws don't apply to the area.  It just<BR>
means that international law also applies there (which really isn't<BR>
that significant because US law implicitly incorporates the law<BR>
in any treaty to which it is a party (including ratification).  Thus,<BR>
an incident with a Missouri (IIRC) Game Warden becomes<BR>
an incident implicating international law.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:38:29 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:07 PM 2/18/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
> >There are a few of us at Brubeks at the moment...<BR>
><BR>
> Guys, where is this? EFnet? DalNet?<BR>
<BR>
JTAS online Doug.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:43:17 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 11:07 PM 2/18/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
> >There are a few of us at Brubeks at the moment...<BR>
> <BR>
> Guys, where is this? EFnet? DalNet?<BR>
<BR>
Since I don't see any answers, I'll provide one.<BR>
<BR>
Brubek's is, from what I've gathered, the JTAS site chat room. <BR>
Naturally, you need to be a subscriber to participate.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:39:27 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:05:38 -0500 (EST), Steve Daniels<BR>
> <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >> Great.  John, let's see that essay tomorrow, and please be sure<BR>
> >> to follow standard citation form in referring to canon.<BR>
><BR>
> >No!!  Not the Blue Book from Harvard!<BR>
><BR>
> Should I even ask about the Bloo Book from Harvard?<BR>
<BR>
Well, the "Blue Book" from Harvard is a poorly written,<BR>
atrociously organized, annoyingly thick, and shamefully bound<BR>
reference book of citation methods and bibliography rules<BR>
that lawyers are supposed to use, apparently for no other reason<BR>
than that Harvard wrote a book about it before anyone else did.<BR>
I dislike such lengthy dissertations on citation.  I prefer something<BR>
along the lines of "Clarity shallt be the whole of the law of<BR>
citations."<BR>
<BR>
The "Bloo Book" is a different thing entirely.  This is a hodgepodge<BR>
of things, mostly a compliation of reasons Harvard is not to be<BR>
given the reputation that it has.  It has lists of Harvard students,<BR>
graudates, and professors I have known who couldn't balance their<BR>
checkbooks, an almanac of when the weather conditions are good<BR>
enough for me to snipe some of the Harvard buildings from my<BR>
vantage on the 'wrong' side of the river.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:44:28 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There are a few of us at Brubeks at the moment...<BR>
><BR>
> Dom 2300 hrs UK<BR>
<BR>
The subscription page is down.<BR>
<BR>
Brubek's uses a telnet client?  State of the art for 1995.  Ugh.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:46:07 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Fool for a client (was a digest header)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:12:25 -0500 (EST), GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In fact, in SOME criminal matters, if you are poorish and have a choice <BR>
>between the stringer public defenders [not the professional corps some areas <BR>
>have] and yourself, and you are smart and good looking, doing it yourself <BR>
>might be a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
>Most judges will warn you that you are own your own, but then will fill in <BR>
>all the blanks in your motions, or even hint you should make them [to avoid <BR>
>appeals issues]; and MOST importantly you can make statements and slant <BR>
>questions without the exposure to cross that formal testifying would bring.<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind also that you might be able to get the benefit of<BR>
both worlds - defend yourself, but get a lawyer to act as an<BR>
advisor.  Perfectly legal, although I don't believe that PDs will<BR>
do this - you'd likely have to pay out of your own pocket.<BR>
<BR>
>Still, a regular okay criminal lawyer is most likely better than you at your <BR>
>best, but a lot of these guys are picking up PD cases at the courthouse for a <BR>
>reason.<BR>
<BR>
Affirmed...<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:55:01 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 20:12:25 -0500 (EST), Kiri Aradia Morgan<BR>
<tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> In a message dated 00-02-15 18:02:53 EST, you write:<BR>
 <BR>
>> << If you refuse to learn to drive (like one of my Philosophy profs<BR>
 <BR>
>> I have no driver's license -- I hate to drive. I am amazed how many people <BR>
>> consider this evidence of diminished mental capacity. I am flabberagasted how <BR>
>> many sales clerks refuse to take a _passport_ as ID until you call the <BR>
>> manager over (and I have run into one manager who refused to recognize a <BR>
>> passport as an indentity document -- this despite the small print in their <BR>
>> operations manual that makes no mention of "driver's license" but says <BR>
>> "government-issued photo identity document").<BR>
<BR>
>I've had the exact same experience.<BR>
<BR>
>"Excuse me.  It's good enough for Japan Immigration at Narita Airport but<BR>
>it's not good enough for Wal-Mart?  I wanna talk to your supervisor."<BR>
<BR>
With me, I get hassled when I choose to use my PD ID instead of<BR>
my DL.  My response is usually along the lines of<BR>
<BR>
  "Excuse me?  My employer insists on a thorough identity check<BR>
   before they hire or issue ID.  More thorough than anything the<BR>
   DMV does before issuing a license or a NDI.  I am encouraged<BR>
   by my employer to use it for that reason.  If you don't<BR>
   understand the ramifications of employment by the PD, I'll be<BR>
   happy to explain it to your supervisor."<BR>
<BR>
I don't usually have problems after that.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:16:06 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 7:29 AM -0600 2/18/2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>At 08:27 PM 2/17/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
>>holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
>>of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
>>money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'.<BR>
><BR>
>Fine. When's the last time you patched a pothole? Or paid for an overpass<BR>
>out of your own pocket.<BR>
<BR>
Well, let's see... I've paid my taxes every year for the last 11<BR>
years.  I've paid federal income tax and state and city sales<BR>
tax.  That's money I could have used for other things if it wasn't<BR>
going for overpasses and potholes.<BR>
<BR>
>The government owns the roadways in the name of the people.<BR>
<BR>
Right... it owns them in MY name since last I checked, I'm one<BR>
of the people.  So it doesn't get to do whatever IT wants with<BR>
them it gets to do what I want with them.  I and all of the other<BR>
people.<BR>
<BR>
>>Since I own all the *public* land, then I have a right to<BR>
>>travel on it.  Now the government makes rules and regulations<BR>
>>that are in the public interest that are conditions to using<BR>
>>the public land but that's a big difference from some landowner<BR>
>>making the rules because he owns the land.<BR>
><BR>
>If you don't like the driver's license laws, appeal to your fellow<BR>
>"land-owners".  I think you'll find that the vast majority like knowing<BR>
>that the people on the road have been certified to be at least minimally<BR>
>competent.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have a problem with the driver's license laws.  I think the<BR>
tests should be stricter.  Right now, they don't prove anything<BR>
as I see every day I drive.  My problem is when a body of government<BR>
forgets that it is acting in the name of me and the other people.<BR>
I never objected to the current driver's license laws in any of my<BR>
emails.<BR>
<BR>
>Doug, a professional driver for six years.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not professional, but I've been driving for 13 years.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:28:24 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when...<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BF7ADD.329EEB20<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  ----- Original Message -----=20<BR>
  From: Rob Knight=20<BR>
  To: traveller news=20<BR>
  Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 8:52 AM<BR>
  Subject: Re: Your Traveller game is too Australian when:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  9)   You need to roll for success on the task for TL15 boomerang =<BR>
throwing (and fail critically, receiving a blow to the back of the head)<BR>
<BR>
  10)  All PCs are continually troubled by flies - no matter what part =<BR>
of the Imperium they are in<BR>
<BR>
  *10b)  All headwear has corks dangling across the face from it, and =<BR>
vacc-suits come with boardshorts (stubbies) and roll-up sleaves.<BR>
<BR>
  11a)  A major war starts, devastating a planet's environment and =<BR>
killing millions of sentient lifeforms,  originated by a PC discussion =<BR>
about which is the best Aussie rules football team (and we all know =<BR>
that's Geelong, don't we)!<BR>
<BR>
  11b) A major war starts, as above, originated by a PC discussion about =<BR>
which is the best football code in Australia (Rugby, or Aussie rules - =<BR>
and I'm not touching that one at all for fear of being attacked by Irate =<BR>
New South Welshmen or Queenslanders)!<BR>
<BR>
  12) All activity is ceased (critical repair to the jump drive, =<BR>
fighting off teleporting Zhodani Commandoes, etc) when a cricket match =<BR>
is broadcast (especially if it involves Poms, and ashes)!<BR>
<BR>
  *12b) All activity ceases on the 1st Tuesday in November for a... =<BR>
errrr, THE horse race.<BR>
<BR>
  13) You'd rather be down at the beach!<BR>
<BR>
  *13b) Or at a barbie, tucking inta a slab (slice) of dead animal =<BR>
(steak, snag, or chops) covered in dead horse (tomato sauce), washed =<BR>
down with a slab (carton) of ya fav tinnies (favourite beer).<BR>
<BR>
  *14)  The most popular air/raft is in ute (complete with blue kelpie =<BR>
cattledog cross - that can or cannot say "bugger" or "burger") or =<BR>
panelvan configuration (with racks w/- a surf/grav board attached to the =<BR>
roof and a mattress in the back).<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BF7ADD.329EEB20<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20<BR>
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =<BR>
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV><BR>
  <DIV=20<BR>
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =<BR>
black"><B>From:</B>=20<BR>
  <A HREF="3D">Rob =
Knight</A>=20<BR>
  </DIV><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20<BR>
  href=3D"mailto:traveller@lists.imagiconline.com"=20<BR>
  title=3Dtraveller@lists.imagiconline.com>traveller news </DIV><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, February 19, =<BR>
2000 8:52=20<BR>
  AM</DIV><BR>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Your Traveller =<BR>
game is too=20<BR>
  Australian when:</DIV><BR>
  <DIV><BR>
</DIV>  <DIV>9)&nbsp;&nbsp; You need =to=20  roll&nbsp;for success on the task for TL15 boomerang throwing (and =fail=20  critically, receiving a blow to the back of the head)</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>10)&nbsp; All PCs are =continually=20  troubled by flies - no matter what part of the Imperium they are=20  in</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>*10b)&nbsp; All headwear has corks dangling across =the face=20  from it, and vacc-suits come with boardshorts (stubbies) and roll-up=20  sleaves.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>11a)&nbsp; A =major&nbsp;war starts,=20   devastating a&nbsp;planet's environment and killing millions of = sentient=20   lifeforms,&nbsp;&nbsp;originated by a PC discussion about which is the = best=20   Aussie rules football team (and we all know that's Geelong, don't=20  we)!</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>11b) A major war starts, =as above,=20  originated by a PC discussion about which is the best football code in =    Australia (Rugby, or Aussie rules - and I'm not touching that one at = all for=20  fear of being attacked by Irate New South Welshmen or=20  Queenslanders)!</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>12) All activity is =ceased (critical=20   repair to the jump drive, fighting off teleporting Zhodani Commandoes, = etc)=20   when a cricket match is broadcast (especially if it =involves&nbsp;Poms,=20  and&nbsp;ashes)!</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>*12b) All activity ceases on the 1st Tuesday in =November for=20  a... errrr, THE horse race.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>13) You'd rather be down =at the=20  beach!</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>*13b) Or at a barbie, tucking inta a slab (slice) =of dead=20   animal (steak, snag, or chops) covered in dead horse (tomato sauce), = washed=20   down with a slab (carton) of ya fav tinnies (favourite = beer).</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV></DIV>  <DIV>*14)&nbsp; The most popular air/raft is in ute =(complete=20  with blue kelpie cattledog cross - that can or cannot say "bugger" or=20   "burger") or panelvan configuration (with racks w/- a surf/grav board =attached=20  to the roof and a mattress in the =back).</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BF7ADD.329EEB20--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:40:04 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 10:24 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Wierd Laws No.2: In the UK, it is still legal to shoot a Welshman from<BR>
> > the walls of Chester with a crossbow. Now that one is really bizzare!<BR>
><BR>
> But surely that would violate some other laws, which is another way<BR>
> that old laws get effectively extinguished.  Example:  the state<BR>
> constitution<BR>
> of Kentucky allows unconcealed weapons to be carried.  However, try<BR>
> that in town and it is a "disturbing the peace" citation at the very<BR>
> least.<BR>
> So, assuming the UK has any laws making it a crime to purposefully<BR>
> inflict injury on anyone, including Welshmen, that law above is no longer<BR>
> in effect, i.e., it isn't the law anymore.  That it remains on the books<BR>
> is<BR>
> irrelevant; later laws trumps the older ones.<BR>
><BR>
> bloo<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Funny you should say that, but in Australia, it has been done by Australian<BR>
police, to wheel out an outdated law (in regards to a fetish club in Sydney)<BR>
to prosecute an individual who interpreted more recent laws as superseding<BR>
the old one... the police simply chose which law they were working to, and<BR>
the man was fined $250 in an Australian court of law.  Aussie law is heavily<BR>
entrenched with English law, and I don't know how the POM's laws work.  If<BR>
it's on the books, it could still be in force - like Australia.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:21:58 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
At 7:44 PM -0500 2/18/2000, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
>SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> There are a few of us at Brubeks at the moment...<BR>
>><BR>
>> Dom 2300 hrs UK<BR>
><BR>
>The subscription page is down.<BR>
><BR>
>Brubek's uses a telnet client?  State of the art for 1995.  Ugh.<BR>
<BR>
Brubek's is a server, not a client.  I use a MOO client, normally.<BR>
There are a number of them out there.  It uses the telnet protocol<BR>
but there are many clients designed to work more smoothly with the<BR>
MOO server via this protocol.  Telnet clients work, but can be<BR>
annoying.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1944<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 19 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1945<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
Re: Massive conspiracy<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1944<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: directional explosives<BR>
Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too Australian when...<BR>
Re: on target<BR>
Re: Brubeks<BR>
Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1944<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE Tech Prog and SocImp<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: the complete story<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: on target<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
Full-auto Fun...!<BR>
Re: on target<BR>
Re: Full-auto Fun...!<BR>
[BITS] Website update 19 February 2000<BR>
RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
the point exactly...<BR>
UK TML meet<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:21:19 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
The kids on the law review at harvard crank out a big paperback book with <BR>
lots of stupid legalistic and just plain weird rules for every possible <BR>
citing sitution.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that of these rules most courts only use the most basic and <BR>
common, and the court's requirements are set out in one or maybe three pages. <BR>
Only law schools, law school pubs, and the US SC uses these rules, and they <BR>
are the bane of every first year law student in legal writing, and then <BR>
during your first summer [law students work for firms or judges or sometimes <BR>
public interest groups in the summer] when you learn that all those rules are <BR>
out the window you get really really mad about the lost weeks of your life <BR>
learning that stupid blue book with the faint and crammed type.<BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 10:36:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< >No!!  Not the Blue Book from Harvard!<BR>
 <BR>
 Should I even ask about the Bloo Book from Harvard?<BR>
 <BR>
 >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:39:03 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
<BR>
The Roc wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Funny you should say that, but in Australia, it has been done by Australian<BR>
> police, to wheel out an outdated law (in regards to a fetish club in Sydney)<BR>
> to prosecute an individual who interpreted more recent laws as superseding<BR>
> the old one... the police simply chose which law they were working to, and<BR>
> the man was fined $250 in an Australian court of law.<BR>
<BR>
Did the police use the one that should be in effect?<BR>
Did the defendant appeal arguing the law applied wasn't effective all the<BR>
way to his court of last resort?<BR>
Things that don't get appealed don't get ruled on.<BR>
<BR>
>  Aussie law is heavily<BR>
> entrenched with English law, and I don't know how the POM's laws work.  If<BR>
<BR>
> it's on the books, it could still be in force - like Australia.<BR>
<BR>
Well, in the US laws get made too often to clean the laws up every<BR>
time. And there are a tremendous amount of entities that have the<BR>
ability to make laws (legistlatures, courts, executive agencies).<BR>
Instead, the new laws get promulgated.  Occassionally, a law will<BR>
be amended, or more rarely, actually repealed.  The US Supreme<BR>
Court has said explicitly a few times that it will honor the most<BR>
recent expression of the laws made by Congress where there is<BR>
conflict with an older one.  To do otherwise creates loads of<BR>
problems.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:54:12 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: isn't "Yanks in Space"?  My GOD, man, is NOTHING sacred?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I guess that means it'll have to be a Mel Brooks film ... combine<BR>
> Blazing Saddles with Hitler in Springtime.<BR>
 <BR>
"Don't be schtupid...be a smartie!<BR>
 Come and join de Solomani Party!"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:13:19 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Massive conspiracy<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-02-18 22:36:32 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< <Loren realizes to late he mis-set the dial on his flashy-thingy..> >><BR>
<BR>
One advantage of working for SJ Games is the corneal implants rendering such <BR>
primitive things as "sunglasses" unecessary. <BR>
<BR>
These aren't the droids you're looking for. Nothing to see here. Move along. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:13:21 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1944<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-02-18 22:36:32 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< >This reminds me of when I was in the Army. To assure interoperability with<BR>
 >our friends, allies, and the French,<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I am reminded of the British General in the Crimean War (1850s) who was a <BR>
veteran of the Napoleanic wars of 40 years or so earlier (and getting a tad <BR>
senile): On seeing his forces slowed in their advance on a Russian position, <BR>
he remarked to an aide 'We shall never beat the French at this rate!"<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:23:36 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/19/00 12:19:09 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Split the Union into smaller nations that can self-govern without needing<BR>
 Washington. >><BR>
<BR>
Now this sounds promising, as long as the states let the Feds run foreign <BR>
policy and the armed forces (minus the National Guard of course...:-) )<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 01:27:09 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/19/00 12:21:58 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Sorry, but that's *exactly* what they do if you present a questionable<BR>
 check at the branch where your account is. They go back to the file<BR>
 cabinet and pull the signatre card. >><BR>
<BR>
I did this for nine years, and it's an incredibly slow pain in the a** <BR>
process, used now as a back up. It's as obsolete as the dodo...<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: The Vilani banks use this because it's traditional...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:05:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: directional explosives<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Regards directional explosives while I may be coming in late on this and I<BR>
> must have missed the orginal post I seem to remember that there was a side<BR>
> article on a directional explosive in one of the early Journals (JTAS).  Can<BR>
> any one supply the citation?  No it's not hush-a-boom, that was from Rocky<BR>
> and Bullwinkle.<BR>
<BR>
That was TDX, which was swiped from James Blish. TDX blasts are flat<BR>
disks parallel (they explode at right angles to the local gravity).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:46:02 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too Australian when...<BR>
<BR>
Your Traveller Universe is Too Australian When:<BR>
<BR>
- - All scenarios start in the pub.<BR>
- - Worlds with CO2 atmospheres brew Fosters.<BR>
- - Carousing is a characteristic, not a skill.<BR>
- - General Products build Holdens.<BR>
- - Your patron says:  "A Vargr took my baby!".<BR>
<BR>
(I had some others, but my brain isn't quite working at the moment.)<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:53:57 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: on target<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 14:33:23 -0000, "Trevor, Peter"<BR>
<Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Mark Urbin wrote:<BR>
>> >The Zhodani are communists.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> This is actually true to the Cold War Traveller was modelling <BR>
>> the 70's. The Zhodani represented the Soviet Union.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I guess that makes their Vargr allies Cubans... :-)<BR>
><BR>
>I always thought (past tense) of the Vargr Extents as the  Middle<BR>
>East:  Many different states  and  factions,  some  pro-Imperial,<BR>
>some  anti-Imperial,  some  appearing  schizophrenic  (from   the<BR>
>Imperial perspective).<BR>
><BR>
>However, I can also see the Vargr Extents representing the  whole<BR>
>Central American region (not just Cuba):  Political  instability,<BR>
>many Vargr living in the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
Don't forget the charismatic dictators in garish uniforms.<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven."<BR>
                                               -Ecclesiastes 3:1<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:39:54 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
At 22:35 -0500 18/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At 11:07 PM 2/18/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
> >There are a few of us at Brubeks at the moment...<BR>
><BR>
>Guys, where is this? EFnet? DalNet?<BR>
<BR>
The JTAS chat room, actually a MOO. There is a java client on the <BR>
page which you can log in through.<BR>
<BR>
http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:42:45 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
<BR>
At 22:35 -0500 18/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
><Loren realizes to late he mis-set the dial on his flashy-thingy..><BR>
><BR>
>It's too bad about GDW, but I have real high hopes for Marc Miller's<BR>
>Traveller.. anybody know who's doing the cover art?<BR>
<BR>
I heard it's a really famous 70's Sci-Fi artist who does really good stuff...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 16:44:43 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
At 22:35 -0500 18/2/00, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:<BR>
>But surely that would violate some other laws, which is another way<BR>
>that old laws get effectively extinguished.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>So, assuming the UK has any laws making it a crime to purposefully<BR>
>inflict injury on anyone, including Welshmen, that law above is no longer<BR>
>in effect, i.e., it isn't the law anymore.  That it remains on the books<BR>
>is irrelevant; later laws trumps the older ones.<BR>
<BR>
It's because Wales is still an occupied nation ;-) Whenever there's <BR>
trouble with the nationalist terrorists, they flood a few valleys as <BR>
reservoirs.<BR>
<BR>
Dom ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:05:52<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:23 AM 2/19/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 2/19/00 12:19:09 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
>gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< Split the Union into smaller nations that can self-govern without needing<BR>
> Washington. >><BR>
><BR>
>Now this sounds promising, as long as the states let the Feds run foreign <BR>
>policy and the armed forces (minus the National Guard of course...:-) )<BR>
<BR>
actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:12:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
San Francisco has some weridies.<BR>
<BR>
It is illegal to drive more than twenty sheep down Market Street detween<BR>
dusk and dawn.<BR>
<BR>
Firing a gun from a moving cablecar is illegal, no word on what you can do<BR>
when it is stopped.<BR>
<BR>
It is illega to posses more than two pounds of gold on the streets of city<BR>
(probably why all the rap shows are in Daly City or Oakland)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
I resent your implication that Americans are insensitive<BR>
to the culture of the unwashed, ignorant heathens that<BR>
populate the rest of the world. -Shawn Wilson, in a.f.m<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:15:51<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1944<BR>
<BR>
At 01:13 AM 2/19/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I am reminded of the British General in the Crimean War (1850s) who was a <BR>
>veteran of the Napoleanic wars of 40 years or so earlier (and getting a tad <BR>
>senile): On seeing his forces slowed in their advance on a Russian position, <BR>
>he remarked to an aide 'We shall never beat the French at this rate!"<BR>
<BR>
During the Spanish-American War, an American officer, who had been a<BR>
Confederate, forgot himself while in action and shouted "Hit 'em boys, we<BR>
got the damn Yankees on the run!"<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
There was once a time when the church controlled the government.<BR>
The laws of the church were the laws of the land. Belief in God <BR>
was strong, teachings of the church were rarely questioned.<BR>
This time was called The Dark Ages.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:52:23 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED RE Tech Prog and SocImp<BR>
<BR>
In message <63A11916E379D21199300000F81A33E5058FA053@r1clex01.cbr.defenc<BR>
e.gov.au>, "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> writes<BR>
>However frankly I can see the advantages of a wider gene-pool than that of<BR>
>local village. Especially in UK places like the, ahem, North, Wales and<BR>
>Cornwall . . . (Cornwall from whence mah family came) - or places where<BR>
>dueling banjos is a respected pastime.  <BR>
<BR>
ITYM Norfolk.  HTH.  HAND.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:39:50 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
In message <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEHIEAAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>, "Frank<BR>
G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes<BR>
><BR>
>> Jim said :<BR>
>>     Do you Kiwi's have an airforce?<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, it keeps beating both yours and the Brits at finding submarines !<BR>
><BR>
In the UK we find US submarines by watching fishing boats travelling<BR>
backwards at speed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:21:52 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
In message <00215.134527.8P2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard<BR>
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes<BR>
>Also, "infertility" (which seemed to always be assumed to be the<BR>
>*wife's* fault, unless she could prove otherwise) was grounds for a<BR>
>divorce. I think even the Catholic Church tended to allow that.<BR>
<BR>
I think not.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:08:16 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
In message <v04205501b4d3baa68b51@[216.118.39.162]>, Bolie Williams IV<BR>
<bolie@io.com> writes<BR>
>Right... it owns them in MY name since last I checked, I'm one<BR>
>of the people.  So it doesn't get to do whatever IT wants with<BR>
>them it gets to do what I want with them.  I and all of the other<BR>
>people.<BR>
<BR>
Please take this willy-waving rubbish to somewhere it is on topic.<BR>
<BR>
ObTWIAVBP people who pay to download messages aren't interested.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:38:04 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: on target<BR>
<BR>
Pete replied to Peter Trevor:<BR>
> >However, I can also see the Vargr Extents representing the  whole<BR>
> >Central American region (not just Cuba):  Political  instability,<BR>
> >many Vargr living in the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
> Don't forget the charismatic dictators in garish uniforms.<BR>
<BR>
Could we perhaps adapt "Junta" to Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
The President is dog... I mean dead. Long live the president (at least<BR>
counted in dog years).<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:15:45 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
Ok I read this and I know what a Welshman is but what is a Yeoman?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:43:35 PST<BR>
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Full-auto Fun...!<BR>
<BR>
Just thought some of you firearms addicts...er, enthusiasts might want to <BR>
know about a cool feature on American Shooter, on the Nashville Network <BR>
(TNN).<BR>
<BR>
They had a story about a guy who was a retired airline pilot, but who know <BR>
is quite rich due to his invention of an ammo reloader. It seems he invented <BR>
this new type of reloader to keep up with his hobby... full auto.<BR>
<BR>
Here is a short list of the toys that he owns, and shares with his family <BR>
and friends on his ranch:<BR>
<BR>
	 SAW Minimi<BR>
	 Gatling Gun<BR>
	 Quad-mounted .50 anti-aircraft guns<BR>
	 The usual mix of M-16s, Uzis and HKs<BR>
	 A CHAINGUN!!!<BR>
	 A MINIGUN!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
	 and a jet trainer armed with an MG that he uses to strafe his ranchland.<BR>
<BR>
They showed him and his family and friends shooting full-auto rock-and-roll <BR>
at night with tracers. At one point, they sent up a remote-controlled drone <BR>
loaded with an explosive charge that went BOOM when someone hit it with <BR>
their MG.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that they rerun American Shooter on Sunday night, so check your <BR>
listings if you want to have the next best thing to a sexual experience... <BR>
<G!><BR>
<BR>
Gary<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:48:41 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: on target<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:38:04 +0100, Jens Rydholm<BR>
<jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Pete replied to Peter Trevor:<BR>
>> >However, I can also see the Vargr Extents representing the  whole<BR>
>> >Central American region (not just Cuba):  Political  instability,<BR>
>> >many Vargr living in the Imperium.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Don't forget the charismatic dictators in garish uniforms.<BR>
><BR>
>Could we perhaps adapt "Junta" to Traveller?<BR>
><BR>
>The President is dog... I mean dead. Long live the president (at least<BR>
>counted in dog years).<BR>
><BR>
What's the conversion between dog years and vargr years?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven."<BR>
                                               -Ecclesiastes 3:1<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:58:42 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Full-auto Fun...!<BR>
<BR>
At 12:43 19.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>Just thought some of you firearms addicts...er, enthusiasts might want to <BR>
(snip)<BR>
<BR>
>I believe that they rerun American Shooter on Sunday night, so check your <BR>
>listings if you want to have the next best thing to a sexual experience... <BR>
(snip)<BR>
<BR>
Have I lost the pointe (sic!), or is this extremely OT?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:01:51 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] Website update 19 February 2000<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
The Con-Man strikes again!<BR>
- --------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
BITS is happy to announce that the Travelling Page on the website has <BR>
been updated with 11, that's eleven, new conventions for this year's <BR>
season. Events range from the pure ecstasy of a pure Traveller <BR>
Convention in March, to old favourites like the Dudley Bug Ball, <BR>
Gamesfest and, of course, GenCon UK 2000.<BR>
<BR>
Extra thanks are due to Richard Talbot who co-ordinates a lot of <BR>
these events, and single-handledly mans a lot of the Scottish <BR>
conventions.<BR>
<BR>
So, will we be seeing you there?<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:30:26 -0000<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
Not too far - about an hour's drive (just north of Rochdale).<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of <BR>
> SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: 18 February 2000 22:58<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 16:10 -0500 18/2/00, "Mark Preston" <BR>
> <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> >Wierd Laws No.2: In the UK, it is still legal to shoot a <BR>
> Welshman from<BR>
> >the walls of Chester with a crossbow. Now that one is <BR>
> really bizzare!<BR>
> <BR>
> It doesn't happen that often.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mark, are you near Chester in the UK?<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
> <BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:47:25 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chauncey Smith <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: 19 February 2000 19:50<BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Ok I read this and I know what a Welshman is but what is a Yeoman?<BR>
><BR>
Yeomen were 'Freemen', farmers who had their own land. The were still tied<BR>
to the local Lord by oaths of loyalty and the need to offer their service in<BR>
times of war etc, but were free to move, and to not have to spend a certain<BR>
portion of their time working the Local Lords lands.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:16:33 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: the point exactly...<BR>
<BR>
>Then don't complain about the extra hassle you have to go through when the <BR>
>clerk<BR>
>asks for a state issued photo ID with which the clerk is actually <BR>
>familiar.  One<BR>
>reason why many clerks like to accept only a Drivers License is because it's a<BR>
>known quantity.  If I'm looking at a supposed license from 5 states away <BR>
>how am<BR>
>I supposed to know if it's a forgery or not when I've never actually seen a<BR>
>Texas State Drivers License (living in NY and all).  You don't get a training<BR>
>course which familiarizes you to all 50 states individual licenses, not to<BR>
>mention the multitude of other state or federal government sponsored photo <BR>
>ID's.<BR>
<BR>
But it's not a state issued ID.  It's clearly marked as a state issued <BR>
drivers license.<BR>
You have just pointed out it's present primary use, which is not to improve <BR>
public safety on the highway.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot<BR>
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.<BR>
                  http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:49:13 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: UK TML meet<BR>
<BR>
Any more news on the proposed UK TML meet-up at Hebden Bridge in early<BR>
March?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:09:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 01:23 AM 2/19/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>>In a message dated 2/19/00 12:19:09 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
>>gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
>><BR>
>><< Split the Union into smaller nations that can self-govern without needing<BR>
>> Washington. >><BR>
>><BR>
>>Now this sounds promising, as long as the states let the Feds run foreign <BR>
>>policy and the armed forces (minus the National Guard of course...:-) )<BR>
><BR>
> actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
> dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!<BR>
<BR>
Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West<BR>
Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.<BR>
Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!<BR>
<BR>
And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1945<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1946</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/20/00 1:44:30 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 20 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1946<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
UK TRAVELLER CONVENTION<BR>
RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
re: UK TML meet<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
Brubeks<BR>
Ownership<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
A real world example - OT <BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
old laws and future<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
re: the complete story<BR>
SEC: UNCLASS - Re: A real world example<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
FFS v1 errata<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:35:41 -0000<BR>
From: "Charles Nicholas Walker" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: UK TRAVELLER CONVENTION<BR>
<BR>
TRAVELLER ROADSHOW<BR>
<BR>
 Location and date<BR>
Salem Community Centre.<BR>
Central Street.<BR>
(Beside the Co-op),<BR>
Hebden Bridge.<BR>
West Yorkshire.<BR>
HX7-6HB.<BR>
<BR>
March 11th from 10am to 11pm<BR>
March 12th from 10am to 6pm<BR>
<BR>
All Traveller Players<BR>
If you have played or play or even if you want to play traveller in any of<BR>
its flavours I.e.: Classic Traveller (the three black Books), MegaTraveller,<BR>
Traveller The New Era, Mark Millers Traveller (AKA T4), Gurps Traveller, or<BR>
a mix of the above then why not come along to this TRAVELLER CONVENTION<BR>
<BR>
Recycling Contest<BR>
First come first served free to those who attend are copies of the Traveller<BR>
Fanzine SIGNAL G.K. 13 we have a limited number of this issue and they have<BR>
been given to us by the editor and this is one of the rarest issues of this<BR>
fanzine.<BR>
<BR>
Organised by<BR>
Nick Walker<BR>
Contact CNW@GLOBALNET.CO.UK<BR>
or phone 01484-845476 (evening only)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
or see the BITS travelling page.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:41:43 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
At 16:56 -0500 19/2/00,  "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Not too far - about an hour's drive (just north of Rochdale).<BR>
<BR>
I'm about 15 miles north of Chester near Port Sunlight on the Wirral.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:44:26 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> San Francisco has some weridies.<BR>
><BR>
> It is illegal to drive more than twenty sheep down Market Street detween<BR>
> dusk and dawn.<BR>
<BR>
Public health hazard (from any droppings), disturbing the peace.<BR>
<BR>
> Firing a gun from a moving cablecar is illegal, no word on what you can do<BR>
> when it is stopped.<BR>
<BR>
Unlawful discharge of a weapon (stopped or not).<BR>
<BR>
> It is illega to posses more than two pounds of gold on the streets of city<BR>
> (probably why all the rap shows are in Daly City or Oakland)<BR>
<BR>
Almost certainly unconstitutional.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:43:44 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: UK TML meet<BR>
<BR>
- --============_-1261118646==_ma============<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
At 16:56 -0500 19/2/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>  wrote:<BR>
>Any more news on the proposed UK TML meet-up at Hebden Bridge in early<BR>
>March?<BR>
<BR>
See the 'Traveller Roadshow' on the BITS site. Or....<BR>
<BR>
As posted by Nick Walker....<BR>
<BR>
TRAVELLER ROADSHOW.........<BR>
<BR>
This Event Will Take Place At<BR>
The Salem Community Centre,<BR>
Central Street,<BR>
(Beside the Co-Op)<BR>
Hebden Bridge<BR>
HX7-6HB.<BR>
<BR>
On March 11th and 12th from 10am Saturday to 11pm and Sunday 10am to 6pm<BR>
<BR>
All welcome, for more details contact me<BR>
<BR>
Nick Walker at <mailto:CNW@Globalnet.co.uk>CNW@Globalnet.co.uk or=20<BR>
phone (Evenings 01484 845476)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=46or Information about Accommodation try the following....<BR>
<BR>
Tourist Information Centre   Phone 01422-845266, they do a guide to=20<BR>
Accommodation<BR>
<BR>
Also try the following links<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/tourist-info/index.html>www.hebdenbridg=20<BR>
e.co.uk/tourist-info/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.a1tourism.com/uk/hebden-bridge.html>www.a1tourism.com/uk/h=20<BR>
ebden-bridge.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There is a vegetarian cafe in the Centre that is open to the public=20<BR>
on Saturday and plenty of shops and food places around which are=20<BR>
close to the Centre.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/=20<BR>
- --============_-1261118646==_ma============<BR>
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
At 16:56 -0500 19/2/00, "Matthew Bond" <<mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>=20<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<excerpt>Any more news on the proposed UK TML meet-up at Hebden Bridge<BR>
in early<BR>
<BR>
March?<BR>
<BR>
</excerpt><BR>
<BR>
See the 'Traveller Roadshow' on the BITS site. Or....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
As posted by Nick Walker....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<smaller>TRAVELLER ROADSHOW.........<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This Event Will Take Place At<BR>
<BR>
The Salem Community Centre,<BR>
<BR>
Central Street,<BR>
<BR>
(Beside the Co-Op)<BR>
<BR>
Hebden Bridge<BR>
<BR>
HX7-6HB.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On March 11th and 12th from 10am Saturday to 11pm and Sunday 10am to<BR>
6pm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
All welcome, for more details contact me<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Nick Walker at <<mailto:CNW@Globalnet.co.uk>CNW@Globalnet.co.uk or<BR>
phone (Evenings 01484 845476)<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=46or Information about Accommodation try the following....<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
Tourist Information Centre   Phone 01422-845266, they do a guide to<BR>
Accommodation<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
Also try the following links<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
<<http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/tourist-info/index.html>www.hebdenbridge.co.=<BR>
uk/tourist-info/index.html<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
<<http://www.a1tourism.com/uk/hebden-bridge.html>www.a1tourism.com/uk/hebden=<BR>
- -bridge.html<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
There is a vegetarian cafe in the Centre that is open to the public on<BR>
Saturday and plenty of shops and food places around which are close to<BR>
the Centre.<BR>
<BR>
=20<BR>
<BR>
</smaller>Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/=20<BR>
<BR>
- --============_-1261118646==_ma============--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:50:22 -0800<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
>On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:09:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard <BR>
>Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
 > Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> > actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
> > dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!<BR>
><BR>
>Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West<BR>
>Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.<BR>
>Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.  We'll (Oregon) gladly take Washington and California down to a <BR>
little south of the bay (to include the People's Republic of <BR>
Berkeley).  Then we shut off the water and power lines that are keeping LA <BR>
on full life-support, and they can either learn to live sustainably in a <BR>
natural desert climate or die.  >:)<BR>
<BR>
>And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!<BR>
<BR>
One can but dream. ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:16:43<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:09 PM 2/19/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West<BR>
>Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.<BR>
>Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!<BR>
<BR>
Part of my insidious plan. We hem and haw, the give LA back to the Feds.<BR>
Enjoy your water hungry desert metropolis, oh, nad by the way, the American<BR>
Canal is ours! Muwahaha!<BR>
<BR>
>And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!<BR>
<BR>
Good idea.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:53:05<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
At 06:44 PM 2/19/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> It is illegal to drive more than twenty sheep down Market Street detween<BR>
>> dusk and dawn.<BR>
><BR>
>Public health hazard (from any droppings), disturbing the peace.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, as long as they were on leashes and you cleaned up the droppings,<BR>
you'd make it.<BR>
<BR>
>> It is illegal to posses more than two pounds of gold on the streets of city<BR>
>> (probably why all the rap shows are in Daly City or Oakland)<BR>
><BR>
>Almost certainly unconstitutional.<BR>
<BR>
actually, it was a public safety measure. Unsavory types would look for<BR>
happy 49ers coming out of an assay office with a heavy bag and kill them.<BR>
So the Mayor made it illegal to possess more than 2 lbs. Wells Fargo loved<BR>
this law.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:55:32 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Brubeks<BR>
<BR>
2355 UK. We're there!<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom (UK pubs have already closed)<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:42:12 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Ownership<BR>
<BR>
>Doug; are you a federalist? I interpret your interpretation (pompous; ain't<BR>
>I....:-) ) as implying the Feds own (or at least control) EVERY single square<BR>
>inch of pavement that a USPS van can park on. I find that DISTURBING...It's<BR>
>bad enough living in a state that's 85% owned by the feds...:-(<BR>
><BR>
The simplest test of ownership is being able to charge for the use of<BR>
something. By this definition, the state government owns all properties not<BR>
owned by the federal governments: If you don't pay the rent (Read as<BR>
Taxes), they take away your property. Logically, then you don't own it, you<BR>
have purchased exclusive rental rights. Rights which you may sub let, in<BR>
accordance with locally established codes.<BR>
<BR>
And, byt the difinitions in the constitution, congress can appropriate any<BR>
lands needed to create the postal roads... and since almos all public roads<BR>
are used for mail routes these days...<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:59:35 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
>>>Now this sounds promising, as long as the states let the Feds run foreign<BR>
>>>policy and the armed forces (minus the National Guard of course...:-) )<BR>
>><BR>
>> actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
>> dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!<BR>
><BR>
>Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West<BR>
>Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.<BR>
>Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!<BR>
><BR>
>And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!<BR>
<BR>
While you're at it, you may as well add Alaska in, and f you can get BC,<BR>
you can probably get the YT, too....<BR>
<BR>
Think of it: A power with the wood resources to force japan to cringe,<BR>
enough oil to make OPEC cringe.... and enough guns to count as a well-armed<BR>
militia already!<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 18:40:24 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
<BR>
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Massive Conspiracy<BR>
...<BR>
>>It's too bad about GDW, but I have real high hopes for Marc Miller's<BR>
>>Traveller.. anybody know who's doing the cover art?<BR>
><BR>
>I heard it's a really famous 70's Sci-Fi artist who does really good stuff...<BR>
<BR>
  Jim Burns?!<BR>
<BR>
  Seriously, I picked up a portfolio of his work at a sale yesterday, and<BR>
found a 10"x15" repro of the painting "Spaceport" that Citadel(/GW) used<BR>
for the cover art on their licensed 15mm Traveller miniatures boxed sets;<BR>
it was interesting to see the majority that they had cropped - I thought<BR>
that the sort of luggage-bots depicted were kind of cute :)<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:12:21 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: A real world example - OT <BR>
<BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From:	Douglas E. Berry [SMTP:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
>	> Or paid for an overpass  out of your own pocket.<BR>
><BR>
>	Every time I pay taxes, Doug, I'm paying for overpasses, roads, and<BR>
>a whole cartload of stuff.<BR>
><BR>
>	> The government owns the roadways in the name of the people.<BR>
><BR>
>	Only because the people let them do so.  the people have the final<BR>
>say.<BR>
><BR>
>	> If you don't like the driver's license laws, appeal to your fellow<BR>
>	> "land-owners".  I think you'll find that the vast majority like<BR>
>knowing<BR>
>	> that the people on the road have been certified to be at least<BR>
>minimally<BR>
>	> competent.<BR>
><BR>
>	Although true, this is not a principle that can be extended to all<BR>
>facets of government policy.  Just because a 'vast majority' of people<BR>
>'want' something, doesn't make it right.<BR>
><BR>
I just love it. "The people" are the final arbiters, except just because a<BR>
majority of them want something it isn't right. "The people" hold final<BR>
power but if they attempt to exercise that power that fact that a majority<BR>
of them have expressed their will isn't a valid exercise of that power.<BR>
<BR>
So in what way are they allowed to make decisions? It seems that an exercise<BR>
of power by their elected officials is also not valid. So "the people" are<BR>
all powerful, as long as they don't do anything.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 22:25:54 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
>> At 01:23 AM 2/19/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>>> In a message dated 2/19/00 12:19:09 AM !!!First Boot!!!,<BR>
>>> gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> << Split the Union into smaller nations that can self-govern without needing<BR>
>>> Washington. >><BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Now this sounds promising, as long as the states let the Feds run foreign<BR>
>>> policy and the armed forces (minus the National Guard of course...:-) )<BR>
>> <BR>
>> actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
>> dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West<BR>
> Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.<BR>
> Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!<BR>
> <BR>
> And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!<BR>
<BR>
I wonder if this would happen if, for some reason, Washington DC got nuked.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:01:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: old laws and future<BR>
<BR>
In Melbourne, Australia, there is an old city council<BR>
by-law that dates from the time of horse-drawn<BR>
carriages, drivers having to wait for hours for their<BR>
bosses, and lack of public toilets - it says that you<BR>
may urinate in public, but only on the right rear<BR>
wheel of your vehicle (we drive on the left side of<BR>
the road here, so that position minimises the um,<BR>
display). I've yet to see it tested in a modern court,<BR>
though, and wouldn't try it just for the hell of it.<BR>
<BR>
obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
We've already heard tell of how far apart asteroids<BR>
are, even though there's millions of them, simply<BR>
because of the vastness of space. Does that mean it'd<BR>
be okay for ships to dump old reactors and such in the<BR>
space between the planets? In the age of cheap space<BR>
travel, would space be the destination for waste?<BR>
<BR>
If they do regulate it, how can they enforce it? At<BR>
what range can planetary sensors pick up a heap of<BR>
garbage floating out the back of your ship? I think of<BR>
present-day earth, where the Soviets dumped dozens of<BR>
reactors and waste in the Arctic, and we only really<BR>
know because they chose to tell us.<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 19:54:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>>Now this sounds promising, as long as the states let the Feds run foreign<BR>
>>>>policy and the armed forces (minus the National Guard of course...:-) )<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
>>> dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!<BR>
>><BR>
>>Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West<BR>
>>Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.<BR>
>>Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!<BR>
>><BR>
>>And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!<BR>
><BR>
> While you're at it, you may as well add Alaska in, and f you can get BC,<BR>
> you can probably get the YT, too....<BR>
<BR>
And that means we realy should have Idaho, as well as the chunk of<BR>
Montana that was supposed to belong to Idaho (the border was supposed<BR>
to be the continental divide, but the survey party took a wrong turn<BR>
and by the time they found out they didn't want to backtrack...)<BR>
<BR>
> Think of it: A power with the wood resources to force japan to cringe,<BR>
> enough oil to make OPEC cringe.... and enough guns to count as a well-armed<BR>
> militia already!<BR>
<BR>
And if anybody complains *too* loudly we threaten to bomb them with<BR>
waste from Hanford... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:11:32 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: the complete story<BR>
<BR>
Martin Hargrave wrote:<BR>
>>Also, "infertility" (which seemed to always be assumed to be the<BR>
>>*wife's* fault, unless she could prove otherwise) was grounds for a<BR>
>>divorce. I think even the Catholic Church tended to allow that.<BR>
><BR>
>I think not.<BR>
<BR>
They called it "annulment".<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:42:49 +1100<BR>
From: "David Healey" <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: A real world example<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Feb 2000, Danny Moody saith :<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [SMTP:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com] <BR>
 > The government owns the roadways in the name of the people.<BR>
<BR>
 Only because the people let them do so.  the people have the final<BR>
say.<BR>
<BR>
 > If you don't like the driver's license laws, appeal to your fellow<BR>
 > "land-owners".  I think you'll find that the vast majority like<BR>
knowing<BR>
 > that the people on the road have been certified to be at least<BR>
minimally<BR>
 > competent.<BR>
<BR>
 Although true, this is not a principle that can be extended to all<BR>
facets of government policy.  Just because a 'vast majority' of people<BR>
'want' something, doesn't make it right.<BR>
<BR>
****************<BR>
<BR>
No, but if a vast majority want it, then the government responsible must take that course of action.  Do not do so is to not follow the wishes of the majority of voters that put that government in place.  At what point does the minority of staekholders disagreeing with a decision overturn or overrule that decision ?<BR>
<BR>
Government has to act on the wishes and/or desires of the majority of the citizenry that put it there.  If you don't like the decisions made the government you voted for (at whatever level the decision is being made), vote them out when you have the opportunity.  If you didn't vote, then you've got no moral leg to stand on.  And if the decision is made by a non-elected official, and they are not accountable to an elected one (who is, in turn, accountable to the voters) then there is something basically wrong with the system of checks and balances in place.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             !<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:03:20 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/17/00 12:31 AM, tiamat@tsoft.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> They've always been anti-leather-- they just don't make a big deal of it.<BR>
> That's one of the annoying things about them.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I believe PETA's platform is universally anti leather, but individuals<BR>
and factions in the Org. are another thing entirely. I've heard some make a<BR>
distinction between "fine furs", and cowhide, horse hide or sheep<BR>
hide(w/wool attached, ala popular denim jacket style) as these products are<BR>
a "lesser evil". They (PETA) are, IMNSHO, an extremist group, and while I<BR>
disagree with them in general, I am against "fashion furs", but always<BR>
support anyones right to wear the hide of their "kills".<BR>
<BR>
Flame me directly, all those of you who are offended! ;)<BR>
xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:41:48 +1100<BR>
From: "David Healey" <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
<BR>
On 19 Feb 2000, bloo said :<BR>
<BR>
<The Roc><BR>
Aussie law is heavily entrenched with English law, and I don't know how the POM's laws work.  If it's on the books, it could still be in force - like Australia.<BR>
</The Roc><BR>
<BR>
<bloo><BR>
Well, in the US laws get made too often to clean the laws up every<BR>
time. And there are a tremendous amount of entities that have the<BR>
ability to make laws (legistlatures, courts, executive agencies).<BR>
Instead, the new laws get promulgated.  Occassionally, a law will<BR>
be amended, or more rarely, actually repealed.  The US Supreme<BR>
Court has said explicitly a few times that it will honor the most<BR>
recent expression of the laws made by Congress where there is<BR>
conflict with an older one.  To do otherwise creates loads of<BR>
problems.<BR>
</bloo><BR>
<BR>
From what little memory remains after last night, the only bodies here capable of actually making law is the State and Federal parliaments.  Local governemnts, of whatever stripe, can only make local by-laws and I think they're overridden by state and/or federal law where applicable.  Very little law, per se, gets repealed, but a few Acts of Parliament do and these (I believe) frame the law (which is why you can still be conscripted).  I believe courts here cannot frame law or legislation, but may set precedents based on interpretations of exisiting laws or legislation.  How those bodies that actually enforce the law carry out their duties is up to them.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone more conversant with Australian law than I please speak up and tear up what I've just said.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             !<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 02:07:19 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/19/00 6:34:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
 dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington! >><BR>
<BR>
I think a lot of people in other parts of the country would cheer you <BR>
on...:-). Now if you could only take NY, NJ and Mass with you...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:26:03 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 16:56 -0500 19/2/00,  "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> >Not too far - about an hour's drive (just north of Rochdale).<BR>
><BR>
> I'm about 15 miles north of Chester near Port Sunlight on the Wirral.<BR>
<BR>
Port Sunlight. Now that is a name for a High Port.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 01:45:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: FFS v1 errata<BR>
<BR>
Greetings All,<BR>
<BR>
I'm new to the list, so...I hope I won't be dragging out any groaner<BR>
questions in the near future. At any rate, does anybody know where the<BR>
errata for the original TNE FFS can be found? I know it showed up in<BR>
Challenger #75. I'm hoping for a site addy or maybe a word doc (I can<BR>
dream can't I?).<BR>
<BR>
I've done some digging at altavista, and all I found (other than a couple<BR>
nice sites) was errata for FFS v1 mod 1.<BR>
<BR>
Any help would be greatly appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Tanks,<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1946<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1947</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 20 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1947<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
OT Query on MacOS<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
Space ecosystems<BR>
Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
RE: Outdated laws<BR>
Re: old laws and future<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
The Point of Brubeks?<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
Re: A real world example<BR>
Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
Re: Outdated laws<BR>
Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
Land ownership<BR>
Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
Re: The Point of Brubeks?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1942<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:05:38 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
<BR>
At 4:43 -0500 20/2/00, Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
>SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > I'm about 15 miles north of Chester near Port Sunlight on the Wirral.<BR>
>Port Sunlight. Now that is a name for a High Port.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Hadn't thought of that. And CJ Cherryh has a book called 'Port Eternity'.<BR>
<BR>
Port Sunlight is the location of Lever Brothers, one of the two <BR>
companies which formed Unilever.<BR>
<BR>
Dom <Megacorp Drone><BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:09:15 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Apologies for the OT question, but does anyone know if a Mac LC will <BR>
run MacOS 7.5.2?<BR>
<BR>
(I have just come into an LC which I plan to upgrade to OS 7.5.2 and <BR>
use to demo Rob Prior's software for BITS at Cons).<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 05:14:45 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
<BR>
David Healey wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From what little memory remains after last night, the only bodies here capable of actually making law is the State and Federal parliaments.  Local governemnts, of whatever stripe, can only make local by-laws and I think they're overridden by state and/or federal law where applicable.  Very little law, per se, gets repealed, but a few Acts of Parliament do and these (I believe) frame the law (which is why you can still be conscripted).  I believe courts here cannot frame law or legislation, but may set precedents based on interpretations of exisiting laws or legislation.  How those bodies that actually enforce the law carry out their duties is up to them.<BR>
<BR>
That is the same here.  Those precedents, by-laws, rules, etc., are laws.<BR>
They just aren't capital-L black-letter passed-at-the-highest-level laws,<BR>
i.e., they have the force of law, subject to higher authority.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:18:04 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
I remember an old Space Master(from ICE) companion where they proposed<BR>
space lifeforms, either genetically created or naturally evolved. They even<BR>
proposed an intelligent natural space-dweller species living in an asteroid<BR>
belt.<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone ever used such things in Trav? <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:18:10 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
At 20:01 19.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
<BR>
Most non-planetry or dangerous waste, I'd say, is either dropped into a<BR>
star (possibly) on a predefined orbit), dumped on a small uninhabited and<BR>
lifeless moon in system (for later recycling when technology makes this<BR>
possible) , or dropped somewhere in deep space, one jump away from any<BR>
system. (Might lead to "waste planetoids" in deep space when the amsses<BR>
becoe large enough- adventure idea?)<BR>
<BR>
>If they do regulate it, how can they enforce it? <BR>
<BR>
Not at all, I'd say. Space is full of a lot of... space. Just as you implied.<BR>
OTOH, why would anyone _want_ to regulate it? There are no ecosystems that<BR>
could be harmed, there is alway more than enough uninhabited area to drop<BR>
that stuff... space travel would even solve the problem of radioactive<BR>
waste, if nuclear power plants weren't that risky during normal operation<BR>
(but perhaps there will be some technical solution to the latter some day.) <BR>
<BR>
Ah, this brings me to another thread idea...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 02:25:14 -0800<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, anything other than a Mac 128 or Mac 512 can run 7.5.2, however, what<BR>
version of the OS is needed for his software?  If you can, I'd recommend<BR>
going with System 7.1 as it requires less resouces, and you can add a<BR>
couple of things to 7.1 to make it feel more like 7.5.x (windowshade for<BR>
one).<BR>
<BR>
You might try http://lowendmac.com/ for info, but I didn't find the answer<BR>
to your question.  I think it was about 7.6 that they started dropping the<BR>
older machines.<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hi all,<BR>
><BR>
>Apologies for the OT question, but does anyone know if a Mac LC will<BR>
>run MacOS 7.5.2?<BR>
><BR>
>(I have just come into an LC which I plan to upgrade to OS 7.5.2 and<BR>
>use to demo Rob Prior's software for BITS at Cons).<BR>
><BR>
>Cheers,<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
>----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
>"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
>can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
>http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 14:48:56 +0400<BR>
From: "andrew Long" <andylong@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Outdated laws<BR>
<BR>
on Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:26:03 -0800 Evyn MacDude said:-<BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
>>>><BR>
Port Sunlight. Now that is a name for a High Port.<BR>
<<<<<BR>
<BR>
You sound like you've never been there.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, the smell!<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:49:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: old laws and future<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In Melbourne, Australia, there is an old city council<BR>
> by-law that dates from the time of horse-drawn<BR>
> carriages, drivers having to wait for hours for their<BR>
> bosses, and lack of public toilets - it says that you<BR>
> may urinate in public, but only on the right rear<BR>
> wheel of your vehicle (we drive on the left side of<BR>
> the road here, so that position minimises the um,<BR>
> display). I've yet to see it tested in a modern court,<BR>
> though, and wouldn't try it just for the hell of it.<BR>
<BR>
> obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
> We've already heard tell of how far apart asteroids<BR>
> are, even though there's millions of them, simply<BR>
> because of the vastness of space. Does that mean it'd<BR>
> be okay for ships to dump old reactors and such in the<BR>
> space between the planets? In the age of cheap space<BR>
> travel, would space be the destination for waste?<BR>
<BR>
Actually, at the velocities most traveller ships use, unless you have<BR>
been under thrust less than an hour, any dumped trash would be in an<BR>
escape orbit for the *system*. It'd take years to clear the system<BR>
thouugh. <BR>
<BR>
This is likely to be illegal. Also, by this time, I think we'll have<BR>
learned the lesson that one generation's "waste materials" are the<BR>
nexts "raw materials". And most medium to high pop worlds will have<BR>
*had* to recycle their old dumps, both for the valuable materials<BR>
contained in them, and for space...<BR>
<BR>
> If they do regulate it, how can they enforce it? At<BR>
> what range can planetary sensors pick up a heap of<BR>
> garbage floating out the back of your ship? I think of<BR>
> present-day earth, where the Soviets dumped dozens of<BR>
> reactors and waste in the Arctic, and we only really<BR>
> know because they chose to tell us.<BR>
<BR>
Decent traffic control radar will probably be equovalent tyo the stuff<BR>
Spacewatch  (USAF Space Command) uses. Which means they can detect<BR>
objects only a few cm across in low to medium orbit, and say half a<BR>
meter or so at the 100 diameter limit. They *will* see a ship dumping<BR>
stuff.<BR>
<BR>
It's much simpler to just designate an asteroid or an area on an<BR>
airless rocky moon. Ice moons are too valuable to contaminate.  <BR>
<BR>
There will be people making a living salvaging stuff from older dump<BR>
sites as the materials become useful or the tech to recover useful<BR>
material from them becomes available cheaply enough. <BR>
<BR>
"Toxic waste" is a definite case in point. They *do* tend to be useful<BR>
if you have enough of a given "waste" available for "free".<BR>
Radio-isotopes have uses, it's just that seperating them from reactor<BR>
waste has been discouraged because any such prpcessing will recover<BR>
*usable* fissionables. That won't be much of a concern by the time of<BR>
the 3I. <BR>
<BR>
Heck, if you use fission power, you probably *sell* your spent fuel<BR>
elements to a reprocessing center. <BR>
<BR>
Low level waste is more a case of just letting it sit somewhere for a<BR>
century or two. <BR>
<BR>
Other inorganic garbage will be reprocessed by the equivalent of<BR>
"junkmen". Organic wastes will be valuable to worlds that don't have a<BR>
native ecosystem.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:09:20 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
At 11:18 AM +0100 2/20/2000, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
>At 20:01 19.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>If they do regulate it, how can they enforce it?<BR>
><BR>
>Not at all, I'd say. Space is full of a lot of... space. Just as you implied.<BR>
>OTOH, why would anyone _want_ to regulate it? There are no ecosystems that<BR>
>could be harmed, there is alway more than enough uninhabited area to drop<BR>
>that stuff... space travel would even solve the problem of radioactive<BR>
>waste, if nuclear power plants weren't that risky during normal operation<BR>
>(but perhaps there will be some technical solution to the latter some day.)<BR>
<BR>
The main reason to regulate dumping of trash in space is that anything you<BR>
dump in a system will end up in some kind of orbit and could collide with<BR>
ships or planets.  You'd want to make sure anything dumped either went into<BR>
the sun (be careful.. if you miss, it will come back to you) or somewhere<BR>
where it won't be crossing orbits used by ships.  Space travel has been<BR>
around long enough in the Imperium that I'm sure they are aware of how<BR>
trash can build up to dangerous levels if dumped in useful orbits for<BR>
a thousand years...<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:39:53 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: The Point of Brubeks?<BR>
<BR>
A Question guys and girls:<BR>
What is the Point of Brubeks anyway? What can we do there that we cant do <BR>
on the #Traveller IRC-channel? As the number of possible visitors is <BR>
limited by the number of JTAS subscribers and the number of regulars on <BR>
the  #Traveller channel is pretty low, even though the whole internet <BR>
community has access, i dont quite get the reason...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 08:17:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:59 PM 2/19/2000 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Think of it: A power with the wood resources to force japan to cringe,<BR>
>enough oil to make OPEC cringe.... and enough guns to count as a well-armed<BR>
>militia already!<BR>
<BR>
I hade a Cyberpunk 2020 setting like this once.. the West Coast from San<BR>
Luis Opisbo to Alaska had broken off after a disastrous war with Mexico,<BR>
and the new government were firmly Green (something to do with the<BR>
biological warfare that wrecked everything from LA to the Sonora desert.)<BR>
<BR>
The Sierra Republic needed a place where they could concentrate their<BR>
indistrial interests, and bring in much needed foreign capital. Since the<BR>
SF area hadn't been doing to well since the Big One of 2016, they chose to<BR>
make the nine Bay area counties into the Bay Industrial Zone. This was the<BR>
setting for the game.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 08:20:27<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: JTAS - Rights<BR>
<BR>
At 09:03 PM 2/19/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Yes, I believe PETA's platform is universally anti leather, but individuals<BR>
>and factions in the Org. are another thing entirely. I've heard some make a<BR>
>distinction between "fine furs", and cowhide, horse hide or sheep<BR>
>hide(w/wool attached, ala popular denim jacket style) as these products are<BR>
>a "lesser evil". They (PETA) are, IMNSHO, an extremist group, and while I<BR>
>disagree with them in general, I am against "fashion furs", but always<BR>
>support anyones right to wear the hide of their "kills".<BR>
<BR>
I am personnaly against fashion furs. There's no point. But I will never go<BR>
out and throw paint at people. (Unless it's Pat Buchanen wearing a fur.)<BR>
<BR>
I wear a leather jacket, that came from a cow, that was also part of my<BR>
dinner. Use the entire animal!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:57:35 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example<BR>
<BR>
>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
...<BR>
><< actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
> dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington! >><BR>
><BR>
>I think a lot of people in other parts of the country would cheer you <BR>
>on...:-). Now if you could only take NY, NJ and Mass with you...:-)<BR>
<BR>
ISTR a somewhat cheezy small-press board wargame called "Shattered States"...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:37:34 +0100 (MET)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: DLs and IDs<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Morgan writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I worked third shift at an all-night grocery store in Lexington Kentucky for<BR>
>longer than I care to think about.  It's not a job requirement to be an<BR>
>idiot!<BR>
 <BR>
But maybe it's a big help?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"...all at once I UNDERSTOOD just WHY it is that men FIGHT each other.<BR>
I suddenly saw the ANSWER to all this SENSELESS VIOLENCE that afflicts us!<BR>
<BR>
But, like, I didn't write it down or anything and, like, y'know how it is -<BR>
next morning I had totally forgotten what it WAS, man."<BR>
<BR>
			"DR and Quinch get drafted" from _2000 AD_<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:14:09 -0800<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated laws<BR>
<BR>
andrew Long wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on Sun, 20 Feb 2000 00:26:03 -0800 Evyn MacDude said:-<BR>
> Subject: Re: Outdated Laws<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> Port Sunlight. Now that is a name for a High Port.<BR>
> <<<<<BR>
><BR>
> You sound like you've never been there.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, Just saw the name...<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, the smell!<BR>
<BR>
What they forget to bath?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
TMLUPP:5C7A78<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
Wish I was a better person...   with more control...<BR>
Turn the other cheek...   and when the punch comes, roll...<BR>
Wish I was a kinder person...   could see the others pain...<BR>
Not over react, not judge...   and shrug off the spreadin' stain.<BR>
Damaged, by John Shirley/Donald Roeser, BOC, Heaven Forbid 1998.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:10:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Apologies for the OT question, but does anyone know if a Mac LC will <BR>
> run MacOS 7.5.2?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, don't know. But if it's at least a 68000, and has at least 4 meg<BR>
of RAM, it should be able to. And 7.5.3 is available on Apple's web<BR>
site. So is (if you dig) the file needed to upgrade that to 7.5.5.<BR>
<BR>
Now for *my* question. I've come into possesion of a Radius 2 page<BR>
monitor & card. The card is for an SE 30. The card slot in my SE 30 is<BR>
taken up by an ethernet card. I'm getting a IIcx, will the card fit<BR>
that? If not, are the cards available for using this monitor with the<BR>
IIcx *or* with a PC clone?<BR>
<BR>
> (I have just come into an LC which I plan to upgrade to OS 7.5.2 and <BR>
> use to demo Rob Prior's software for BITS at Cons).<BR>
<BR>
I'm about to dispose of some of the excess Mac gear around here by<BR>
setting up a system with printer and donating it to the local SCA<BR>
group. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:03:48 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Land ownership<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
>The driver's license isn't based on whether or not you<BR>
>have a "right to travel".  It is based on the fact that<BR>
>the government _owns_ the land the roades sit on and can set<BR>
>any requirements it wants for their use.<BR>
<BR>
The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
In Australia, the Crown (Yes, Elezabth II, Queen of Australia, UK and small<BR>
p*ssant islands) own all land not specifically owned by freehold deed (That<BR>
includes pasteral and mining leases, wich made Mabo and Wik judgemts so<BR>
contentious with Rural Australia). In practicen the land is managed by Royal<BR>
Concent by the resonsable government.<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
>You have the right to travel over any other lands that you<BR>
>own (or for which the owner provides permission) to<BR>
>your heart's content without a driver's liscence.<BR>
<BR>
Since I own all the *public* land, then I have a right to<BR>
travel on it.  Now the government makes rules and regulations<BR>
that are in the public interest that are conditions to using<BR>
the public land but that's a big difference from some landowner<BR>
making the rules because he owns the land.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
No. The land is managed by the government as a resource for you and all citizens<BR>
of the USA. The governmant has the right to restrict access in order to maintain<BR>
or utalise the asset as it see fit. They are in fact, their legal guardian. If<BR>
they stuff it up, then you have every right to be p*ssed, but in reality, there<BR>
is not much you can do, as governemts set the judgement criterea and<BR>
legislation.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: The Australian model is a good way to think of Imperial Space. The<BR>
Emperor would have crown land on most planets in the Imperium (even if it is<BR>
only the Imperial Embassy and starport). The Imperial government can do what it<BR>
wants with that land, which may infuriate the locals. It can allso give freehold<BR>
title of its land to nobles as rewards.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:08:15 -0800<BR>
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
<BR>
>Now for *my* question. I've come into possesion of a Radius 2 page<BR>
>monitor & card. The card is for an SE 30. The card slot in my SE 30 is<BR>
>taken up by an ethernet card. I'm getting a IIcx, will the card fit<BR>
>that? If not, are the cards available for using this monitor with the<BR>
>IIcx *or* with a PC clone?<BR>
<BR>
Best bet would be to get the external SCSI-Ethernet box.  I love the SE/30,<BR>
as it makes a terrific box for Word Processing, and with ethernet you can<BR>
print over the net, and transfer files.  I've actually got a video card of<BR>
some sort in mine, but only used it once to see if it would work.  Properly<BR>
set up that is a nice small, blazingly fast box!<BR>
<BR>
The IIcx expects Nubus video cards, I'd guess you can find a Nubus card<BR>
that will work with the monitor, but it's actually likely to be easier to<BR>
find a new or used SCSI-Ethernet box.<BR>
<BR>
				Zane<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |<BR>
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |<BR>
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |<BR>
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+<BR>
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |<BR>
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |<BR>
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:05:51 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: The Point of Brubeks?<BR>
<BR>
On 02/20/00 at 05:39 PM,  Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de> said:<BR>
<BR>
>A Question guys and girls:<BR>
>What is the Point of Brubeks anyway? What can we do there that we can t<BR>
>do  on the #Traveller IRC-channel? As the number of possible visitors is <BR>
>limited by the number of JTAS subscribers and the number of regulars on <BR>
>the  #Traveller channel is pretty low, even though the whole internet <BR>
>community has access, i don t quite get the reason...<BR>
<BR>
Well, Brubeks is a set in a MOO, not an IRC server.  Approximate<BR>
definitions:  MUD=Multi User Dungeon for online game play for many<BR>
player's to create characters that interaction with each other and<BR>
with pre-programmed NPC's and objects; MUSH=Another kind of MUD, but<BR>
focusing on discussion and interaction more than hack and slash<BR>
online play; MOO=MUD/MUSH Object Oriented, allowing the creation of<BR>
persistant objects by "favored" users allowing the gaming area to be<BR>
more easily extended.<BR>
<BR>
So, in theory, you should be able to do a lot of interesting things<BR>
with Brubek's that are harder to do with straight IRC.  Rooms can be<BR>
"furnished" with items and NPC's that the visitors can interact<BR>
with, and the side rooms that exist (and are created by "GMS") could<BR>
lead to complete online "game worlds", "libraries" of files,<BR>
chatrooms, and so on.  That's in theory, in practice, there's not a<BR>
lot in Brubek's yet.<BR>
<BR>
I've never been heavy into MUDs, but I was on one a while back that<BR>
was a pretty good online imitation of a town, complete with streets<BR>
(and streetcars), bars, resturants, apartment buildings (where you<BR>
could rent an apartment), libraries (where you "check out" books),<BR>
and a bank where you set up an account for the "money" you spent to<BR>
live in the town.  It was pretty neat to explore, but...to be<BR>
honest...I could walk around the town where I *live* and have the<BR>
same experiences.  The online place didn't have a hook, a gaming<BR>
aspect, to make me want to go back.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, if something like that focused on Traveller it might lure me<BR>
in.  Put a Starport, Startown, and then surrounding country online.<BR>
People could add ships that "landed" at the port and traveled to<BR>
other systems which could be developed...  Maybe Downport should set<BR>
up a MUD/MUSH/MOO instead of (or in addition to) an NNTP server?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:12:28 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1942<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
Wierd Laws No.2: In the UK, it is still legal to shoot a Welshman from<BR>
the walls of Chester with a crossbow. Now that one is really bizzare!<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
Wierd Laws III : In NSW, Aust. it is legal to urinate on the rear passenger side<BR>
wheel.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:17:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 20:01 19.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
><BR>
> Most non-planetry or dangerous waste, I'd say, is either dropped into a<BR>
> star (possibly) on a predefined orbit),<BR>
<BR>
This is a very popular idea. It's also the *last* thing any<BR>
civilization capable of doing it will do.<BR>
<BR>
To start with, it actually takes *more* delta-V for a stellar impact<BR>
"orbit" than for a system escape orbit. System escape takes a *total*<BR>
velocity of sqrt(2)*Vo (ie 1.4*Vo) where Vo is orbital velocity. But<BR>
since you are already *travelling* at orbital velocity, the *change*<BR>
is only .4*Vo.<BR>
<BR>
Dumping into the star requires a change of Vo. 2.4 times as much<BR>
velocity (and round 5.8 times the *energy*). That kills the waste's<BR>
orbital velocity and lets it fall "straight down" into the star. Small<BR>
amounts of side velopcity will result in a long narrow elliptical orbit<BR>
that's going to intersect *something*, *sometime*. And don't for get<BR>
that those energy costs include *no* initial velocity towards the star.<BR>
It'll pick that up *slowly*.<BR>
<BR>
So, it's the most expensive in terms of energy, and requires *high*<BR>
accuracy. It also disposes of things *permanently* when it works. Which<BR>
is not exactly a selling point since there will *always* be that chance<BR>
you'll find a use for the stuff later.<BR>
<BR>
> dumped on a small uninhabited and<BR>
> lifeless moon in system (for later recycling when technology makes this<BR>
> possible) , or dropped somewhere in deep space, one jump away from any<BR>
> system. (Might lead to "waste planetoids" in deep space when the amsses<BR>
> becoe large enough- adventure idea?)<BR>
<BR>
Placing it on a moon in the outer system won't cost any more than using<BR>
jump. Probably *less* since you can use automated drones, or just a big<BR>
mass driver for transport. Garbage doesn't *care* if it's in transit<BR>
for 20 or 50 years. And it'll be easier to get it to the right place. <BR>
<BR>
>>If they do regulate it, how can they enforce it? <BR>
><BR>
> Not at all, I'd say. Space is full of a lot of... space. Just as you implied.<BR>
> OTOH, why would anyone _want_ to regulate it? There are no ecosystems that<BR>
> could be harmed, there is alway more than enough uninhabited area to drop<BR>
> that stuff... space travel would even solve the problem of radioactive<BR>
> waste, if nuclear power plants weren't that risky during normal operation<BR>
> (but perhaps there will be some technical solution to the latter some day.) <BR>
<BR>
Actually, nuclear reactors, even nuclear power plants *aren't* all that<BR>
risky. Some designs aren't as safe as they could be (with Chernobyl's<BR>
being near the top of the list), but even then it takes some pretty<BR>
*gross* negligence to cause an accident. What happened at Chernobyl was<BR>
along the lines of letting someone test an old-style coal fired steam<BR>
plant by dogging down the safety valve to see which pipes leaked under<BR>
the excess pressure. <BR>
<BR>
Three Mile Island had *more* things go wrong than even the anti-nuke<BR>
folks had dared to suggest as a "worst case" acident. And while it<BR>
ruined the reactor, the health threat was on a par with moving to<BR>
Colorado. The amount of radioactives released was far *less* that what<BR>
goes up the stack of a *coal* fired plant evey day. Yes, they release<BR>
radioactive materials. Naturally occuring stuff in the coal.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, the Three Mile Island accident *proves* the exact *opposite* of<BR>
what most people think. If the anti-nuke crowd had been *remotely*<BR>
close to reality in their rants about lack of safety, Pennsylvania<BR>
would be on worse shape than the areas around Chernobyl. Instead,<BR>
nobody more than half a mile from the plant *could* have detected the<BR>
leakage above normal backround radiation.<BR>
<BR>
The safety systems *really do* work (Remember, Chernobl didn't *have*<BR>
safety systems worth mentioning). But the public doesn't see that.<BR>
They just see "radiation" and all the scare stories about how horrible<BR>
the accident was...<BR>
<BR>
Admiteddly, too many power reactors are based on designs originally<BR>
intended for producing plutonium. That's because the US and Soviet<BR>
military wanted power reactors based on designs that could easily be<BR>
made to produce plutonium for them in the event of a war. <BR>
<BR>
There are a number of designs (such as the Canadian CANDU heavy water<BR>
reactors) that you'd have to really work at to get to produce Pu. And<BR>
other designs are more stable. Self moderating designs are *common* in<BR>
the reactors used in university research and training. <BR>
<BR>
In short, nuclear power has gotten a *really* bad rap based on a<BR>
combination of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) tactics by the<BR>
anti-nukes, and association with nuclear weapons. It doesn't deserve<BR>
it. <BR>
<BR>
Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs to<BR>
use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket engine<BR>
of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive material). For<BR>
non-starships it should be a definite win until smal fusion plants<BR>
appear. For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't say for sure<BR>
til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:34:19 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
>>And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!<BR>
><BR>
>While you're at it, you may as well add Alaska in, and f you can get BC,<BR>
>you can probably get the YT, too....<BR>
><BR>
>Think of it: A power with the wood resources to force japan to cringe,<BR>
>enough oil to make OPEC cringe.... and enough guns to count as a well-armed<BR>
>militia already!<BR>
<BR>
Y'all remember what happened last time some well-armed Yankees came to the<BR>
Yukon?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1947<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 20 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1948



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A real world example - OT
The point of Brubecks?
Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)
Re: A real world example - OT
Re: A real world example - OT
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED ID Probs
RE: Outdated laws
Re: OT Query on MacOS
re: Dropping waste in space
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)
Re: OT Query on MacOS
Re: OT Query on MacOS
GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 23:40:35 -0500
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT

>>	Although true, this is not a principle that can be extended to all
>>facets of government policy.  Just because a 'vast majority' of people
>>'want' something, doesn't make it right.
>>
>I just love it. "The people" are the final arbiters, except just because a
>majority of them want something it isn't right. "The people" hold final
>power but if they attempt to exercise that power that fact that a majority
>of them have expressed their will isn't a valid exercise of that power.
>
>So in what way are they allowed to make decisions? It seems that an exercise
>of power by their elected officials is also not valid. So "the people" are
>all powerful, as long as they don't do anything.

Well, to deliberately pick an emotionally-laden example, if a majority of
Americans voted to make homosexuality a crime, or a majority of Germans
voted to eliminate the Jewish problem, would that make those actions right?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:49:31 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: The point of Brubecks?

>>>
A Question guys and girls:
What is the Point of Brubeks anyway? What can we do there that we can?t do
on the #Traveller IRC-channel? As the number of possible visitors is
limited by the number of JTAS subscribers and the number of regulars on
the  #Traveller channel is pretty low, even though the whole internet
community has access, i don?t quite get the reason...
<<<

1. I dont use IRC, never beed thrilled with the system.
2. SJG will run discussions with authors and other illuminated Trav people on a
regular schedual. (So far LKW and the author of First In have been on, and Marc
Miller may be on in the future).
3. It is a MOO, and as such, support for online games are in the works
4. The java client is stable on my Linux Machine
5. It is a way to get more people onto JTAS

I do like JTAS, and if you feel that $US15 is a bit steep, you are missing out
some great stuff (Like part 1 of a GT miniture rules system for 1/300 figures,
Creatures of the Regina Subsector and Drop in Patrons).

Disclamer, I am not a SJG employee, but I have played on in a RPG :-)

Darryl

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:08:52 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In short, nuclear power has gotten a *really* bad rap based on a
> combination of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) tactics by the
> anti-nukes, and association with nuclear weapons. It doesn't deserve
> it.

Agree. Well spoken. The radiation dose you receive from working in a
nuclear power plant for a year is *less* than the dose you receive from
having a x-ray scan of your teeth.

> Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs
> to use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket
> engine of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive
> material). For non-starships it should be a definite win until smal
> fusion plants appear. For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't
> say for sure til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.

This is one thing I found a bit strange with FF&S. I recently designed a
ship using a fusion rocket, and it is supposedly extremely radioactive
(don't pass within 200 kilometers behind it). Is this really realistic?
How exactly is a fusion rocket supposed to work? Fusion of hydrogen
creates helium, a stable substance by any standards.

/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:08:23 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)

>>On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:09:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
>>Erickson) wrote:
>
> > Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> > actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new,
in
>> > dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!
>>
>>Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West
>>Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.
>>Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!
>
>Exactly.  We'll (Oregon) gladly take Washington and California down to a
>little south of the bay (to include the People's Republic of
>Berkeley).  Then we shut off the water and power lines that are keeping LA
>on full life-support, and they can either learn to live sustainably in a
>natural desert climate or die.  >:)

No problem. Well just crack hydrogen out of the ocean and use gas turbines
and hydrogen fired boilers to desalinate ocean water, and pay for it all
with federal funds so YOU can pay for it.

Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 14:37:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT

This will go nowhere fast, but it all depends on how *you* (singular 
or collective) define good and evil , social morality, and the power you
or your society has to back up your value system. Who was more evil,
Aztecs, who practiced ritual killing and cannibalism, or the Spanish
Catholics, who came and raped, enslaved, maimed, and effectively destroyed
them...

> Well, to deliberately pick an emotionally-laden example, if a majority of
> Americans voted to make homosexuality a crime, or a majority of Germans
> voted to eliminate the Jewish problem, would that make those actions right?

What the Mongols did for the Mongols was good for the Mongols :)

Ray

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted"-Hassan I. Sabbah

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:41:01 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT

On 02/19/00 at 11:40 PM,  Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> said:

>>I just love it. "The people" are the final arbiters, except just because a
>>majority of them want something it isn't right. "The people" hold final
>>power but if they attempt to exercise that power that fact that a majority
>>of them have expressed their will isn't a valid exercise of that power.

>>So in what way are they allowed to make decisions? It seems that an exercise
>>of power by their elected officials is also not valid. So "the people" are
>>all powerful, as long as they don't do anything.

>Well, to deliberately pick an emotionally-laden example, if a majority of
>Americans voted to make homosexuality a crime, or a majority of Germans
>voted to eliminate the Jewish problem, would that make those actions
>right?

Man, this is *so* off topic!  But I can't resist putting my two Cr in...

I can't speak for other places, but the US is NOT a pure democracy.
Our government was constituted as a *constitutional* republic (and I
know it can be argued that it has drifted away from there, but let's
not argue *that* point here).  As such, there are constitutionally
guaranteed rights to all peoples, regardless of the majority's
wishes.  The Bill of Rights were established to enumerate some, but
not *all* of those rights, and the later amendments were added
(supposedly) to clarify the scope of those rights.  While the
Constitution does not *enumerate* the rights of "Life, Liberty, and
the Pursuit of Happiness, or the private ownership of property for
that matter, those rights do exist and are vested in the *people* of
the United States.  In fact, all rights not expressly reserved to
the federal government or states are vested in the *individual*
citizens of the United States.

Because the US Constitution is considered a living document (and you
can go back to, at least, Marbury v Madison for the origin of that)
it is subject to continuing interpretation by succeeding generations
as to where the rights of governments end and the rights of the
individual begin.  Our internal debates about our rights can look
extremely messy to outsiders, and because they are evolutionary
mistakes can be made and lead us down wrong paths from time to time,
but they are a necessary part of the continuing evolution of our
government.

I'll admit that in the past the government ignored actions and even
*took* actions that today would be considered terrible abridgements
of individual rights.  I'll even suggest that this continues today,
but as it does happen we continue to debate and struggle to perfect
our government.  We continue to evolve, and progress, though we
still have a ways to go.

Eris,
    who considers himself a liberal, though no one else does
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:49:53 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)

On 02/19/00 at 11:34 PM,  Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> said:

>>>And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!
>>
>>While you're at it, you may as well add Alaska in, and f you can get BC,
>>you can probably get the YT, too....
>>
>>Think of it: A power with the wood resources to force japan to cringe,
>>enough oil to make OPEC cringe.... and enough guns to count as a well-armed
>>militia already!

>Y'all remember what happened last time some well-armed Yankees came to
>the Yukon?

What? Did they get 'et by the bears? <g>  

Rob, there's no accounting for what crazy Yankees might do.  I
promise you that we Southerners have *NO* designs on Canadian
territory.

Ob Traveller...and I *do* have one for this <g>...Let's suppose
Virus was slightly less effective and we ended up with several dozen
independent star states surrounded by wilds?  Would there be
immediate attempts to reform into the 4th Imperium?  Would they
succeed?  Would there end up being a "shattered imperium" that
didn't recombine?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:20:24 -0600
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
> >>And we might as well see if we can get BC. Reunite the Oregon Territory!
> >
> >While you're at it, you may as well add Alaska in, and f you can get BC,
> >you can probably get the YT, too....
> >
> >Think of it: A power with the wood resources to force japan to cringe,
> >enough oil to make OPEC cringe.... and enough guns to count as a well-armed
> >militia already!
> 
> Y'all remember what happened last time some well-armed Yankees came to the
> Yukon?

This? ;-)

http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Cremation.htm

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:00:57 +1100
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED ID Probs

I once had a BANK official refuse to take a frakkin' passport-at my own
effing BANK!!!  He gave me some kind of noise about people buying fake
passports in the Hispanic sections of town.  But my picture is on the
passport and my signature and all that other good stuff and they have
records of all that stuff to match with.  I went to another branch of the
bank and had no problem.  That yahoo was insisting that a California DL is
harder to get and more reliable than a US passport and I happen to know that
anyone who can really get you a fake passport can also get you a fake DL.  

Kiri  =)


Most Australian Banks, Phone companies etc. have a points system where
different types of ID are awarded a set amount of points and if you have a
100 points+ of ID then you get some new account action (and then only the
bank card with sig is required for normal banking stuff). I think Driver's
licence is 50 points as is a passport - the Federal Medicare care maybe 25
points, bank keycards are 25 points - so a combo of these (along as a DL or
PP are there) will get you over the line. It seems to be a good system -
another reason why we in Oz are so damned advanced. 

Ob Trav; This ubiquitous Imperial ID I keep hearing about would probably be
the first step in acquiring additional identification. Would the Ministry of
Standards look after this? How hard would it be to forge this ID? Would it
have the same impact as a US Social Security number (which I believe is the
lynch pin of most ID requirements - correct me if I am wrong people, it's
the only way I learn).

BTW I have never been carded since I grew a beard that did not look like bum
fluff gone mad.

Now I am going bald.

Apologies if all ready covered.


Michael 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:29:44 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Outdated laws

At 16:23 -0500 20/2/00, "andrew Long" <andylong@bigpond.com> wrote:

> >>>>
>Port Sunlight. Now that is a name for a High Port.
><<<<
>
>You sound like you've never been there.
>
>Oh, the smell!

Most of the soap making has gone now, as have the powder towers so 
the smell isn't an issue. Ellesmere Port is a lot worse....

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:28:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS

At 16:23 -0500 20/2/00, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com> wrote:
>IIRC, anything other than a Mac 128 or Mac 512 can run 7.5.2, however, what
>version of the OS is needed for his software?  If you can, I'd recommend
>going with System 7.1 as it requires less resouces, and you can add a
>couple of things to 7.1 to make it feel more like 7.5.x (windowshade for
>one).

Well, it runs on 7.0.1 if I remember correctly but you can't get 7.1 
etc from the Apple site anymore. I seem to recall that the download 
starts at 7.5.3 now - I have 7.5.2 from my powerbook 190cs.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:25:46 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Dropping waste in space

At 16:23 -0500 20/2/00,  Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote:
>Most non-planetry or dangerous waste, I'd say, is either dropped into a
>star (possibly) on a predefined orbit), dumped on a small uninhabited and
>lifeless moon in system (for later recycling when technology makes this
>possible) , or dropped somewhere in deep space, one jump away from any
>system. (Might lead to "waste planetoids" in deep space when the amsses
>becoe large enough- adventure idea?)

It's a well known fact in canon that waste is left at Mithril in the 
Border Worlds... ;-)

cf Mission on Mithril

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:18:38 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)

On 20 Feb 00, at 16:49, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:

> Ob Traveller...and I *do* have one for this <g>...Let's suppose
> Virus was slightly less effective and we ended up with several dozen
> independent star states surrounded by wilds?  Would there be
> immediate attempts to reform into the 4th Imperium?  Would they
> succeed?  Would there end up being a "shattered imperium" that
> didn't recombine?

That's actually my favourite alternate scenario. An assortment of 
successor states, all claiming to be the "true" Third Imperium (or its 
legitemate successor, replacement (the Vilani), ruler (the Solomani), 
etc, etc).


- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:18:38 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS

On 20 Feb 00, at 10:09, SD Mooney wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Apologies for the OT question, but does anyone know if a Mac LC will run
> MacOS 7.5.2?

If it's any help my flatmate just set up an LCII with system 7.5.3

- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>

An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:07:13 -0500
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS

>At 16:23 -0500 20/2/00, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com> wrote:
>>IIRC, anything other than a Mac 128 or Mac 512 can run 7.5.2, however, what
>>version of the OS is needed for his software?  If you can, I'd recommend
>>going with System 7.1 as it requires less resouces, and you can add a
>>couple of things to 7.1 to make it feel more like 7.5.x (windowshade for
>>one).
>
>Well, it runs on 7.0.1 if I remember correctly but you can't get 7.1
>etc from the Apple site anymore. I seem to recall that the download
>starts at 7.5.3 now - I have 7.5.2 from my powerbook 190cs.

Software will run with system 6, actually.

We've had 7.5.3 installed on our LC IIs at school. Seems to work OK, and
the LCII has the same processor etc as an LC.

Stick with 7.5.3, it is a very stable load.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:42:08 -0500
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)

I think I've almost got GT Bestiary ready to go.  Before I finish, I'd like
to get some feedback. Here are two sample export of a single encounter
table, one in a compact listing and one with all the details present.  The
software provides two other listings: a compact listing with an abbreviated
form of the extra details, and a standard GURPS listing without all the
non-First-In stuff.

Some questions:

1) How many people would use an option to print Classic/MegaTraveller, TNE,
or T4 stats? (It already supports metric, BTW.)

2) These are tab-delimited tables. I've also included HTML. Would anyone
use this, or should I drop the HTML option from future products?

3) What about mono-spaced text?  Would anyone want this as an option? (It's
not in there right now, and writing it would delay the release date a bit.)

4) I haven't included the reaction probabilities from Traveller (A5 F2 and
so on). Should these go in?

5) What information is missing?


Wiseman's World Ecological Report

Abandoned Starport Encounter Table
Probablility of Encounter on 9 or less
Roll	Animal Encounter
3	Elchosalel (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 10, DX: 11, IQ: 4, HT: 15, Mass: 150 lbs, Speed: 7, Dodge: 5
Smashing tail (1d-2 crushing), skin (PD/DR: 0/0)

4	Treme (flying filter; solitary, 1)
ST: 1, DX: 14, IQ: 3, HT: 13/1, Mass: 1 lbs, Speed: 2, Dodge: 7
Blunt teeth (0 crushing), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)

5	Rhinrar (filter; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 10, DX: 12, IQ: 5, HT: 15, Mass: 150 lbs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 6
Sharp teeth (1d-2 cutting), spear (1d+2 impaling), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)

6	Caes (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 6, DX: 17, IQ: 4, HT: 15/8, Mass: 75 lbs, Speed: 15, Dodge: 7
Trample (0 crushing), defensive poison, feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)

7	Ki (filter; solitary, 1)
ST: 6, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 16/8, Mass: 75 lbs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5
Smashing tail (1d-4 crushing), skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)

8	Ailinchir (browser; solitary, 1)
ST: 1, DX: 15, IQ: 4, HT: 15/3, Mass: 3 lbs, Speed: 10, Dodge: 7
Horns (0 impaling), spear (1d-2 impaling), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)

9	Travti (filter; solitary, 1)
ST: 2, DX: 14, IQ: 4, HT: 15/4, Mass: 9 lbs, Speed: 7, Dodge: 6
Horns (0 impaling), tusks (0 impaling or 0 cutting), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)

10	Aviski (browser; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 3, DX: 13, IQ: 4, HT: 15/5, Mass: 18 lbs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5
Horns (0 impaling), blunt teeth (0 crushing), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)

11	Kesis (eater; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 1, DX: 12, IQ: 3, HT: 16/2, Mass: 1 lbs, Speed: 14, Dodge: 7
Sharp teeth (1d-5 cutting), defensive poison, fur (PD/DR: 0/1)

12	Taas (hunter; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 4, DX: 11, IQ: 4, HT: 16/6, Mass: 36 lbs, Speed: 19, Dodge: 9
Blunt teeth (0 crushing), claws (0 impaling), defensive poison, skin
(PD/DR: 0/0)

13	Lanlis (gatherer; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 1, DX: 16, IQ: 3, HT: 14/2, Mass: 3 lbs, Speed: 14, Dodge: 7
Fangs (1d-5 impaling), sharp teeth (1d-5 cutting), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)

14	Chylascha (pouncer; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 3, DX: 15, IQ: 4, HT: 13/4, Mass: 18 lbs, Speed: 6, Dodge: 6
Horns (0 impaling), very thin fur (PD/DR: 0/0)

15	Rharlo (scavenger; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 16, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 14, Mass: 300 lbs, Speed: 13, Dodge: 6
Smashing tail (1d+1 crushing), offensive poison, downy feathers (PD/DR: 0/0)

16	Soesmiar (scavenger; solitary, 1)
ST: 4, DX: 13, IQ: 4, HT: 15/6, Mass: 36 lbs, Speed: 7, Dodge: 6
Large claws (0 impaling or 0 cutting), skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)

17	Nelo (flying trapper; solitary, 1)
ST: 1, DX: 16, IQ: 4, HT: 14/1, Mass: 1 lbs, Speed: 14, Dodge: 7
Large claws (0 impaling or 0 cutting), defensive poison, very thin fur
(PD/DR: 0/0)

18	Ratrest (scavenger; solitary, 1)
ST: 16, DX: 12, IQ: 3, HT: 13, Mass: 300 lbs, Speed: 7, Dodge: 6
Sharp teeth (1d+1 cutting), sharp teeth (1d+1 cutting), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)


Tropical Forest Encounter Table
Probablility of Encounter on 15 or less
Roll	Animal Encounter
3	Osistcel (filter; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 25, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 13, Mass: 600 lbs, Speed: 7, Dodge: 5
Blunt teeth (1d-1 crushing), tusks (2d+2 impaling or 5d-1 cutting), fur
(PD/DR: 0/1)

4	Artrilanil (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 100, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 17/38, Mass: 4,800 lbs, Speed: 19, Dodge: 9
Smashing tail (12d-1 crushing), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)

5	Tra (filter; solitary, 1)
ST: 16, DX: 13, IQ: 5, HT: 15, Mass: 300 lbs, Speed: 7, Dodge: 5
Blunt teeth (1d-3 crushing), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)

6	Osrhev (filter; solitary, 1)
ST: 10, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 15, Mass: 150 lbs, Speed: 7, Dodge: 5
Butting horns (1d-2 crushing), blunt teeth (1d-5 crushing), quills (PD/DR: 1/1)

7	Eev (browser; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 10, DX: 10, IQ: 4, HT: 13/8, Mass: 150 lbs, Speed: 12, Dodge: 6
Horns (1d-2 impaling), sharp teeth (1d-2 cutting), scales (PD/DR: 0/1)

8	Le (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 10, DX: 8, IQ: 5, HT: 13/8, Mass: 150 lbs, Speed: 5, Dodge: 4
Smashing tail (1d-2 crushing), fur (PD/DR: 0/1)

9	Lidertes (browser; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 6, DX: 13, IQ: 4, HT: 17/9, Mass: 75 lbs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 6
Butting horns (1d-4 crushing), defensive poison, thick fur (PD/DR: 1/1)

10	Tro (browser; large group, 1d+2)
ST: 4, DX: 10, IQ: 3, HT: 15/6, Mass: 36 lbs, Speed: 17, Dodge: 8
Horns (0 impaling), defensive poison, scales (PD/DR: 0/1)

11	Chema (eater; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 4, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 13/4, Mass: 36 lbs, Speed: 6, Dodge: 5
Sharp teeth (1d-4 cutting), defensive poison, scales (PD/DR: 0/1)

12	Nerte (hunter; solitary, 1)
ST: 240, DX: 10, IQ: 3, HT: 13/40, Mass: 18,000 lbs, Speed: 8, Dodge: 5
Sharp teeth (12d+1 cutting), horns (29d+1 impaling), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)

13	Aion (gatherer; solitary, 1)
ST: 16, DX: 11, IQ: 4, HT: 15, Mass: 300 lbs, Speed: 9, Dodge: 5
Fangs (1d+1 impaling), skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)

14	Caka (scavenger; small group, 1d-1)
ST: 2, DX: 11, IQ: 3, HT: 13/2, Mass: 5 lbs, Speed: 2, Dodge: 6
Sharp teeth (1d-5 cutting), defensive poison, very thin fur (PD/DR: 0/0)

15	Iva (flying pouncer; solitary, 1)
ST: 1, DX: 15, IQ: 4, HT: 15/2, Mass: 1 lbs, Speed: 20, Dodge: 10
Fangs (1d-5 impaling), claws (0 impaling), defensive poison, skin with
mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)

16	Conrhel (pouncer; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST: 3, DX: 11, IQ: 5, HT: 15/5, Mass: 18 lbs, Speed: 2, Dodge: 6
Smashing tail (0 crushing), offensive poison, skin with mucous (PD/DR: 0/0)

17	Diros (pouncer; solitary, 1)
ST: 25, DX: 9, IQ: 5, HT: 16, Mass: 600 lbs, Speed: 17, Dodge: 8
Sharp teeth (1d+2 cutting), sharp teeth (1d+2 cutting), skin with mucous
(PD/DR: 0/0)

18	Ivchas (chaser; solitary, 1)
ST: 6, DX: 13, IQ: 4, HT: 15/8, Mass: 75 lbs, Speed: 19, Dodge: 9
Sharp teeth (1d-3 cutting), blunt teeth (0 crushing), feathers (PD/DR: 0/1)


Robert Prior, 2000.  (Designed with GT Bestiary.  Robert Prior, 2000.)


Wiseman's World Ecological Report

Abandoned Starport Encounter Table
Probablility of Encounter on 9 or less
Roll	Animal Encounter
3	Elchosalel (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	10	Speed/Dodge:	7/5	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	150 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	1d-2 crushing
HT:	15	Reach:
Elchosalels have a smashing tail. They are covered with skin.
Elchosalels are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2
walking paws and an upright posture. Elchosalels are hermaphroditic. They
are viviparous, giving birth to several defenseless offspring, and provide
moderate parental care. Only one female in a group is fertile. They have a
limited voice box (audible frequency range), and also use pheremones to
communicate.
They have 2 wide-spaced, field-sensing, spectrum-sensing eyes in front,
poor directional hearing and sonar, average reflexes, an average sense of
taste, and no sense of smell.

4	Treme (flying filter; solitary, 1)
ST:	1	Speed/Dodge:	2/7	Size:
DX:	14	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	1 lbs
IQ:	3	Damage:	0 crushing
HT:	13/1	Reach:
Tremes have blunt teeth. They are covered with fur.
Tremes are hyperactive homeotherms. They are radially symmetric, having 6
grasping paws and an invertebrate posture. Tremes have two sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to many developed offspring, and provide little
parental care. They have a limited voice box (audible frequency range), and
also use pheremones to communicate.They are very flimsy.
They have 3 eyes placed all around, poor directional hearing and sonar,
good reflexes, an average sense of taste, and no sense of smell.

5	Rhinrar (filter; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	10	Speed/Dodge:	8/6	Size:
DX:	12	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	150 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d-2 cutting, 1d+2 impaling
HT:	15	Reach:
Rhinrars have sharp teeth and a spear. They are covered with feathers.
Rhinrars are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4
grasping paws and a horizontal posture. Rhinrars have two sexes. They are
marsupial, giving birth to several unformed offspring, and provide moderate
parental care. Only the dominant reproduce. They have a limited voice box
(ultrasonic frequency range), and also use pheremones to communicate.
They have 2 wide-spaced eyes in front, good hearing and sonar, good
reflexes, a good sense of taste, and a good sense of smell.

6	Caes (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	6	Speed/Dodge:	15/7	Size:
DX:	17	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	75 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 crushing
HT:	15/8	Reach:
Caess have no weapons. They are covered with feathers, and have defensive
poison.
Caess are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2 running
hooves and a horizontal posture. Caess have two sexes. They are viviparous,
giving birth to several developed offspring, and provide moderate parental
care. Sex in important in their social system. They have a limited voice
box (ultrasonic frequency range), and also use pheremones to communicate.
They have 2 wide-spaced, colour-blind, nictating eyes in front, average
directional hearing in the subsonic range, excellent reflexes, a good sense
of taste, and a good sense of smell.

7	Ki (filter; solitary, 1)
ST:	6	Speed/Dodge:	9/5	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	75 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d-4 crushing
HT:	16/8	Reach:
Kis have a smashing tail. They are covered with skin with mucous.
Kis are hyperactive homeotherms. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4
walking paws and a horizontal posture. Kis have two sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to several defenseless offspring, and provide
moderate parental care. Only one female in a group is fertile. They have a
limited voice box (ultrasonic frequency range). They are robust and can
control their metabolism.
They have 3 wide-spaced eyes in front, average directional hearing in the
subsonic range, good reflexes, an excellent sense of taste, and an average
sense of smell.

8	Ailinchir (browser; solitary, 1)
ST:	1	Speed/Dodge:	10/7	Size:
DX:	15	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	3 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 impaling, 1d-2 impaling
HT:	15/3	Reach:
Ailinchirs have horns and a spear. They are covered with scales.
Ailinchirs are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2
grasping paws and 5 cloven hooves, and a semi-upright posture. Ailinchirs
have two sexes. They are viviparous, giving birth to several defenseless
offspring, and provide moderate parental care. Only the dominant reproduce,
the subdominant are neuter. They have a limited voice box (audible
frequency range), and also use cilia flickers to communicate.
They have 2 telescopic eyes in front, poor directional hearing in the
subsonic range, average reflexes, a good sense of taste, and no sense of
smell.

9	Travti (filter; solitary, 1)
ST:	2	Speed/Dodge:	7/6	Size:
DX:	14	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	9 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 impaling, 0 impaling or 0 cutting
HT:	15/4	Reach:
Travtis have horns and tusks. They are covered with fur.
Travtis are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 6 grasping
paws and 2 cloven hooves, and an upright posture. Travtis have two sexes.
They are viviparous, giving birth to hordes of developed offspring, and
provide no parental care. Sex in important in their social system. They
have a limited voice box (audible frequency range), and also use pheremones
to communicate.They can hibernate.
They have 3 wide-spaced, nictating eyes in front, average hearing in the
ultrasonic range, average reflexes, a poor sense of taste, and an average
sense of smell.

10	Aviski (browser; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	3	Speed/Dodge:	9/5	Size:
DX:	13	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	18 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 impaling, 0 crushing
HT:	15/5	Reach:
Aviskis have horns and blunt teeth. They are covered with fur.
Aviskis are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4 walking
paws and a horizontal posture. Aviskis are self-fertilizing hermaphrodites.
They are viviparous, giving birth to hordes of developed offspring, and
provide no parental care. Only the dominant reproduce, the subdominant are
neuter. They have a limited voice box (audible frequency range).
They have 2 colour-blind, polarized eyes on stalks, good directional
hearing and sonar, excellent reflexes, a good sense of taste, and a good
sense of smell.

11	Kesis (eater; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	1	Speed/Dodge:	14/7	Size:
DX:	12	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	1 lbs
IQ:	3	Damage:	1d-5 cutting
HT:	16/2	Reach:
Kesiss have sharp teeth. They are covered with fur, and have defensive poison.
Kesiss are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2 crude
hands and 2 running hooves, and a semi-upright posture. Kesiss have two
sexes. They are viviparous, giving birth to several offspring, and provide
moderate parental care. They have an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism.
They have a limited voice box (ultrasonic frequency range), and also use
pheremones to communicate.They are robust.
They have 3 colour-blind eyes placed all around, average hearing and sonar,
average reflexes, an average sense of taste, and no sense of smell.

12	Taas (hunter; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	4	Speed/Dodge:	19/9	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	36 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 crushing, 0 impaling
HT:	16/6	Reach:
Taass have blunt teeth and claws. They are covered with skin, and have
defensive poison.
Taass are poikilothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4 running
hooves and a horizontal posture. Taass are hermaphroditic. They are
viviparous, giving birth to several developed offspring, and provide
moderate parental care. They have genetically determined castes. They have
a limited voice box (audible frequency range). They are robust.
They have 6 colour-blind eyes in front, good directional hearing and sonar,
poor reflexes, a good sense of taste, and a poor sense of smell.

13	Lanlis (gatherer; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	1	Speed/Dodge:	14/7	Size:
DX:	16	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	3 lbs
IQ:	3	Damage:	1d-5 impaling, 1d-5 cutting
HT:	14/2	Reach:
Lanliss have fangs and sharp teeth. They are covered with feathers.
Lanliss are poikilothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2
running hooves and an upright posture. Lanliss are self-fertilizing
hermaphrodites. They are viviparous, giving birth to several developed
offspring, and provide moderate parental care. Their young are
non-sentient. They have an extraordinary voice box (flexible, wide-spectrum
sounds). They are flimsy.
They have 2 narrow-spaced eyes in front, average directional hearing,
excellent reflexes, a poor sense of taste, and an average sense of smell.

14	Chylascha (pouncer; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	3	Speed/Dodge:	6/6	Size:
DX:	15	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	18 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 impaling
HT:	13/4	Reach:
Chylaschas have horns. They are covered with very thin fur.
Chylaschas are hyperactive homeotherms. They are bilaterally symmetric,
having 2 crude hands and 2 grasping paws, and an upright posture.
Chylaschas have two sexes. They bud many offspring, and provide little
parental care. Sex in important in their social system. They have a limited
voice box (audible frequency range). They are very flimsy.
They have 3 night-vision, colour-blind eyes on stalks, average hearing in
the ultrasonic range, excellent reflexes, a good sense of taste, and a good
sense of smell.

15	Rharlo (scavenger; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	16	Speed/Dodge:	13/6	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	300 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d+1 crushing
HT:	14	Reach:
Rharlos have a smashing tail. They are covered with downy feathers, and
have offensive poison.
Rharlos are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2 running
hooves and a horizontal posture. Rharlos are hermaphroditic. They are
viviparous, giving birth to several defenseless offspring, and provide
moderate parental care. Sex in important in their social system. They have
a limited voice box (audible frequency range). They are flimsy and can
hibernate.
They have 6 infrared-sensitive eyes in front, excellent hearing in the
subsonic range and sonar, poor reflexes, a good sense of taste, and an
average sense of smell.

16	Soesmiar (scavenger; solitary, 1)
ST:	4	Speed/Dodge:	7/6	Size:
DX:	13	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	36 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 impaling or 0 cutting
HT:	15/6	Reach:
Soesmiars have large claws. They are covered with skin with mucous.
Soesmiars are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2 cloven
hooves and a horizontal posture. Soesmiars are hermaphroditic. They are
viviparous, giving birth to several defenseless offspring, and provide
moderate parental care. Sex in important in their social system. They have
a limited voice box (audible frequency range).
They have no eyes, average directional hearing, poor reflexes, a poor sense
of taste, and an average sense of smell.

17	Nelo (flying trapper; solitary, 1)
ST:	1	Speed/Dodge:	14/7	Size:
DX:	16	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	1 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	0 impaling or 0 cutting
HT:	14/1	Reach:
Nelos have large claws. They are covered with very thin fur, and have
defensive poison.
Nelos are hyperactive homeotherms. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2
running hooves and a horizontal posture. Nelos have two sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to many offspring, and provide little parental
care. They have genetically determined castes. They have a limited voice
box (ultrasonic frequency range), and also use color patterns to
communicate.They are flimsy.
They have 5 narrow-spaced eyes in front, average directional hearing and
sonar, excellent reflexes, no sense of taste, and an excellent sense of
smell.

18	Ratrest (scavenger; solitary, 1)
ST:	16	Speed/Dodge:	7/6	Size:
DX:	12	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	300 lbs
IQ:	3	Damage:	1d+1 cutting, 1d+1 cutting
HT:	13	Reach:
Ratrests have sharp teeth and sharp teeth. They are covered with fur.
Ratrests are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 7
grasping paws and a horizontal posture. Ratrests have three sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to few developed offspring, and provide a lot of
parental care. They have genetically determined castes. They have a limited
voice box (audible frequency range). They are very flimsy and heal rapidly.
They have 2 wide-spaced, colour-blind eyes in front, average directional
hearing, good reflexes, a poor sense of taste, and a good sense of smell.


Tropical Forest Encounter Table
Probablility of Encounter on 15 or less
Roll	Animal Encounter
3	Osistcel (filter; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	25	Speed/Dodge:	7/5	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	600 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d-1 crushing, 2d+2 impaling or 5d-1 cutting
HT:	13	Reach:
Osistcels have blunt teeth and tusks. They are covered with fur.
Osistcels are hyperactive homeotherms. They are radially symmetric, having
2 walking paws and 4 grasping paws, and a semi-upright posture. Osistcels
have two sexes. They are viviparous, giving birth to few defenseless
offspring, and provide a lot of parental care. Only the dominant reproduce.
They have a limited voice box (audible frequency range), and also use
pheremones to communicate.They are very flimsy and heal rapidly.
They have 2 wide-spaced eyes in front, good directional hearing and sonar,
average reflexes, an average sense of taste, and a good sense of smell.

4	Artrilanil (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	100	Speed/Dodge:	19/9	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	4,800 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	12d-1 crushing
HT:	17/38	Reach:
Artrilanils have a smashing tail. They are covered with feathers.
Artrilanils are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4
running hooves and a horizontal posture. Artrilanils are serial
hermaphrodites. They are viviparous, giving birth to very few defenseless
offspring, and provide a high degree of parental care. They have an extreme
degree of sexual dimorphism. They have a limited voice box (audible
frequency range). They are very robust.
They have 5 eyes in front, good directional hearing in the subsonic range,
good reflexes, a good sense of taste, and a good sense of smell.

5	Tra (filter; solitary, 1)
ST:	16	Speed/Dodge:	7/5	Size:
DX:	13	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	300 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d-3 crushing
HT:	15	Reach:
Tras have blunt teeth. They are covered with scales.
Tras are homeothermic. They are radially symmetric, having 4 crude hands
and 2 walking paws, and an upright posture. Tras have two sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to several defenseless offspring, and provide
moderate parental care. Only the dominant reproduce. They have a limited
voice box (audible frequency range).
They have 2 telescopic, colour-blind eyes in front, good directional
hearing, excellent reflexes, an excellent sense of taste, and an average
sense of smell.

6	Osrhev (filter; solitary, 1)
ST:	10	Speed/Dodge:	7/5	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	1/1	Mass:	150 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d-2 crushing, 1d-5 crushing
HT:	15	Reach:
Osrhevs have butting horns and blunt teeth. They are covered with quills.
Osrhevs are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2 cloven
hooves and a horizontal posture. Osrhevs have two sexes. They are
oviparous, giving birth to several eggs, and provide moderate parental
care. They have a limited voice box (audible frequency range). They heal
rapidly.
They have 2 eyes in front, average directional hearing in the ultrasonic
range, poor reflexes, an average sense of taste, and a poor sense of smell.

7	Eev (browser; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	10	Speed/Dodge:	12/6	Size:
DX:	10	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	150 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	1d-2 impaling, 1d-2 cutting
HT:	13/8	Reach:
Eevs have horns and sharp teeth. They are covered with scales.
Eevs are homeothermic. They are radially symmetric, having 2 crude hands
and 2 running hooves, and a semi-upright posture. Eevs have two sexes. They
are viviparous, giving birth to few offspring, and provide a lot of
parental care. They have a limited voice box (audible frequency range), and
also use cilia flickers to communicate.They are very flimsy and can
hibernate.
They have 2 polarized eyes in front, average hearing in the ultrasonic
range, poor reflexes, an average sense of taste, and an average sense of
smell.

8	Le (browser; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	10	Speed/Dodge:	5/4	Size:
DX:	8	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	150 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d-2 crushing
HT:	13/8	Reach:
Les have a smashing tail. They are covered with fur.
Les are homeothermic. They are radially symmetric, having 2 crude hands and
2 grasping paws, and a semi-upright posture. Les have two sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to few developed offspring, and provide a lot of
parental care. Sex in important in their social system. They have a limited
voice box (audible frequency range). They are very flimsy and heal rapidly.
They have 5 wide-spaced, telescopic eyes in front, excellent directional
hearing, poor reflexes, an excellent sense of taste, and a good sense of
smell.

9	Lidertes (browser; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	6	Speed/Dodge:	9/6	Size:
DX:	13	PD/DR:	1/1	Mass:	75 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	1d-4 crushing
HT:	17/9	Reach:
Lidertess have butting horns. They are covered with thick fur, and have
defensive poison.
Lidertess are hyperactive homeotherms. They are bilaterally symmetric,
having 6 grasping paws and a horizontal posture. Lidertess have two sexes.
They are viviparous, giving birth to several developed offspring, and
provide moderate parental care. Only the dominant reproduce, the
subdominant are neuter. They have a limited voice box (audible frequency
range). They are very robust.
They have 2 colour-blind eyes in front, average directional hearing and
sonar, good reflexes, a good sense of taste, and an average sense of smell.

10	Tro (browser; large group, 1d+2)
ST:	4	Speed/Dodge:	17/8	Size:
DX:	10	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	36 lbs
IQ:	3	Damage:	0 impaling
HT:	15/6	Reach:
Tros have horns. They are covered with scales, and have defensive poison.
Tros are poikilothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4 running
hooves and a horizontal posture. Tros have two sexes. They give birth to
hordes of offspring in a wierd or disgusting manner, and provide no
parental care. They have an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism. They have
a limited voice box (audible frequency range), and also use pheremones to
communicate.
They have 3 eyes placed all around, poor directional hearing in the
subsonic range, good reflexes, a good sense of taste, and an average sense
of smell.

11	Chema (eater; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	4	Speed/Dodge:	6/5	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	36 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d-4 cutting
HT:	13/4	Reach:
Chemas have sharp teeth. They are covered with scales, and have defensive
poison.
Chemas are poikilothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2 walking
paws and a semi-upright posture. Chemas have two sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to many developed offspring, and provide little
parental care. Only one female in a group is fertile. They have a limited
voice box (audible frequency range). They are very flimsy.
They have 3 wide-spaced eyes in front, good hearing and sonar, average
reflexes, a poor sense of taste, and no sense of smell.

12	Nerte (hunter; solitary, 1)
ST:	240	Speed/Dodge:	8/5	Size:
DX:	10	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	18,000 lbs
IQ:	3	Damage:	12d+1 cutting, 29d+1 impaling
HT:	13/40	Reach:
Nertes have sharp teeth and horns. They are covered with feathers.
Nertes are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4 walking
paws and a horizontal posture. Nertes have two sexes. They are viviparous,
giving birth to several developed offspring, and provide moderate parental
care. They have an extreme degree of sexual dimorphism. They have an
ordinary voice box (audible frequency range). They are very flimsy and can
control their metabolism.
They have 2 wide-spaced, nictating, colour-blind eyes in front, average
hearing in the ultrasonic range, poor reflexes, a good sense of taste, and
a poor sense of smell.

13	Aion (gatherer; solitary, 1)
ST:	16	Speed/Dodge:	9/5	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	300 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	1d+1 impaling
HT:	15	Reach:
Aions have fangs. They are covered with skin with mucous.
Aions are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2 grasping
paws and 4 cloven hooves, and a centauroid posture. Aions are
hermaphroditic. They are marsupial, giving birth to many unformed
offspring, and provide little parental care. They have a limited voice box
(audible frequency range).
They have 12 eyes on stalks, good hearing, poor reflexes, a poor sense of
taste, and a good sense of smell.

14	Caka (scavenger; small group, 1d-1)
ST:	2	Speed/Dodge:	2/6	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	5 lbs
IQ:	3	Damage:	1d-5 cutting
HT:	13/2	Reach:
Cakas have sharp teeth. They are covered with very thin fur, and have
defensive poison.
Cakas are homeothermic. They are radially symmetric, having 6 walking paws
and an invertebrate posture. Cakas have two sexes. They are viviparous,
giving birth to many developed offspring, and provide little parental care.
They have a limited voice box (audible frequency range). They are very
flimsy and can hibernate.
They have 6 infrared-sensitive, colour-blind eyes placed all around,
average directional hearing and sonar, poor reflexes, a poor sense of
taste, and an average sense of smell.

15	Iva (flying pouncer; solitary, 1)
ST:	1	Speed/Dodge:	20/10	Size:
DX:	15	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	1 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	1d-5 impaling, 0 impaling
HT:	15/2	Reach:
Ivas have fangs and claws. They are covered with skin with mucous, and have
defensive poison.
Ivas are hyperactive homeotherms. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 2
walking paws and 4 running hooves, and a semi-upright posture. Ivas have
two sexes. They are viviparous, giving birth to several defenseless
offspring, and provide moderate parental care. They have an extreme degree
of sexual dimorphism. They have a limited voice box (ultrasonic frequency
range).
They have 3 wide-spaced eyes in front, excellent hearing, average reflexes,
an average sense of taste, and a good sense of smell.

16	Conrhel (pouncer; pair-bonding, 1d-3)
ST:	3	Speed/Dodge:	2/6	Size:
DX:	11	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	18 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	0 crushing
HT:	15/5	Reach:
Conrhels have a smashing tail. They are covered with skin with mucous, and
have offensive poison.
Conrhels are homeothermic. They are radially symmetric, having 4 grasping
paws and an invertebrate posture. Conrhels have two sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to many defenseless offspring, and provide little
parental care. They have genetically determined castes. They have a limited
voice box (audible frequency range).
They have 3 wide-spaced eyes in front, average hearing in the ultrasonic
range, poor reflexes, an average sense of taste, and a poor sense of smell.

17	Diros (pouncer; solitary, 1)
ST:	25	Speed/Dodge:	17/8	Size:
DX:	9	PD/DR:	0/0	Mass:	600 lbs
IQ:	5	Damage:	1d+2 cutting, 1d+2 cutting
HT:	16	Reach:
Diross have sharp teeth and sharp teeth. They are covered with skin with
mucous.
Diross are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 6 running
hooves and a horizontal posture. Diross have multiple sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to very few defenseless offspring, and provide a
high degree of parental care. Sex in important in their social system. They
have a limited voice box (audible frequency range). They are robust.
They have 7 colour-blind eyes in front, average hearing in the ultrasonic
range and sonar, poor reflexes, no sense of taste, and a good sense of
smell.

18	Ivchas (chaser; solitary, 1)
ST:	6	Speed/Dodge:	19/9	Size:
DX:	13	PD/DR:	0/1	Mass:	75 lbs
IQ:	4	Damage:	1d-3 cutting, 0 crushing
HT:	15/8	Reach:
Ivchass have sharp teeth and blunt teeth. They are covered with feathers.
Ivchass are homeothermic. They are bilaterally symmetric, having 4 running
hooves and a horizontal posture. Ivchass have three sexes. They are
viviparous, giving birth to many offspring, and provide little parental
care. Only the dominant reproduce. They have a limited voice box (audible
frequency range).
They have 2 wide-spaced eyes in front, poor directional hearing, average
reflexes, an average sense of taste, and a good sense of smell.


Robert Prior, 2000.  (Designed with GT Bestiary.  Robert Prior, 2000.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1948
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1949</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/20/00 11:39:12 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest     Monday, February 21 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1949<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: Full-auto fun...<BR>
Re: A real world example<BR>
Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
RE: Port Sunlight (was: outdated laws)<BR>
Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright) <BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Nuclear power in space (was : Re: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
Re: Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
TNE query<BR>
WA, OR, CA country - straying significantly OT<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:57:18 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This is one thing I found a bit strange with FF&S. I recently designed a<BR>
> ship using a fusion rocket, and it is supposedly extremely radioactive<BR>
> (don't pass within 200 kilometers behind it). Is this really realistic?<BR>
> How exactly is a fusion rocket supposed to work? Fusion of hydrogen<BR>
> creates helium, a stable substance by any standards.<BR>
<BR>
If you fuse two deuterium nuclei you get one helium nuclei and one alpha<BR>
particle. Easily stopped by PAPER. I'm sure the more advanced fusion<BR>
reactions have a little more radioactivity involved, but overall, fusion<BR>
reactors will output much, much less radioactivity than fission types. IIRC,<BR>
nothing in the gamma radiation spectra.<BR>
<BR>
Is your fusion rocket based on Daedalus by any chance?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:15:41 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
>Some questions:<BR>
><BR>
>1) How many people would use an option to print Classic/MegaTraveller, TNE,<BR>
>or T4 stats? (It already supports metric, BTW.)<BR>
<BR>
Until it does CT &/or MT stats, I am not interested at all in it.<BR>
<BR>
>2) These are tab-delimited tables. I've also included HTML. Would anyone<BR>
>use this, or should I drop the HTML option from future products?<BR>
<BR>
The HTML output features are nice to have, IMHO, especially if one does<BR>
PBEM or has players with net access.<BR>
<BR>
>3) What about mono-spaced text?  Would anyone want this as an option? (It's<BR>
>not in there right now, and writing it would delay the release date a bit.)<BR>
<BR>
Always a good option for backwards compatability.<BR>
<BR>
>4) I haven't included the reaction probabilities from Traveller (A5 F2 and<BR>
>so on). Should these go in?<BR>
<BR>
Definitely.<BR>
<BR>
>5) What information is missing?<BR>
><BR>
CT/MT stats.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:42:31 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:17:50 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>In short, nuclear power has gotten a *really* bad rap based on a<BR>
>combination of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) tactics by the<BR>
>anti-nukes, and association with nuclear weapons. It doesn't deserve<BR>
>it.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of points. 1) If I recall correctly several layers of the TMI<BR>
safety system failed before the last ditch failsafe (that according to<BR>
the power co. and the DOE would never be needed because the<BR>
other safety measures were foolproof) finaly kicked in. 2) Those<BR>
redundant safety systems are mandated because of the anti-nuke<BR>
power types you deride. Without the scare tactics of the protestors<BR>
TMI could very well have been as bad if not worse than Chernobyl.<BR>
3) After a nuclear plants usefull service life is over(say 40-50 years<BR>
or therabouts) You are left with a large amount of radiactive<BR>
crap to deal with. (not just the fuel rods but also the containment<BR>
building itself is too hot to deal with for quite some time.)<BR>
So you either have to dismantle the containment building (and find<BR>
someplace to dump all that radioactive steel, concrete, etc.)<BR>
or you leave the containment building in place untill the<BR>
radioactivity runs down to a reasonable level. (which means<BR>
that after it's usefull life the nuke plant will take up lots of space<BR>
that could theoretically be put to better use.)<BR>
<BR>
On the plus side nuclear power produces almost no air polution.<BR>
(Though this is true of wind and solar power as well. And you don't<BR>
have the wory of nuclear contamination with these power sources.)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the rant. You are correct that in the short run nuclear power<BR>
is reasonably safe. It's in the long run that the problems come up.<BR>
><BR>
>Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs to<BR>
>use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket engine<BR>
>of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive material).<BR>
<BR>
Has somebody actually managed to build one of those?  My understanding<BR>
is theoretically posible but not practically do-able.<BR>
<BR>
>For<BR>
>non-starships it should be a definite win until smal fusion plants<BR>
>appear. For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't say for sure<BR>
>til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well according to FFS fission has a zone of usability up to TL 12<BR>
(when the minimum size fusion plant matches the minimum fission<BR>
plant.) Perhaps some comparisons with other pp types are in order.<BR>
<BR>
at TL 8 Fission produces 1MW, masses 6 tonnes, and costs MCr .1<BR>
per m^3. It consumes .1 m^3 per year per MW in fuel (radioactives).<BR>
The minimum volume is 10 m^3.<BR>
<BR>
So the per MW mass, volume, and cost (including mass, volume, and<BR>
cost of fuel and amortizing pp cost over 40 years) to operate the fission<BR>
plant for 30 days is:<BR>
Mass: 6.156 tonnes.<BR>
Volume: 1.008 m^3.<BR>
Cost: Cr 825.<BR>
<BR>
The corresponding figures for TL7 Fuel Cells are:<BR>
Mass: 218 tonnes.<BR>
Volume: 218 m^3.<BR>
Cost: Cr 216083.<BR>
Minimum volume: .01 m^3<BR>
A much more expensive power plant (largely because of the fuel)<BR>
<BR>
TL8 Solar Cells will require:<BR>
Mass: 103 tonnes.<BR>
Volume: 800 m^3.<BR>
Cost: Cr 62500.<BR>
Min Volume: .01 m^3.<BR>
Better but still quite expensive (and less capable in the outer<BR>
zone of a star{duh})<BR>
<BR>
TL 5 internal combustion<BR>
Mass: 182.5 tonnes.<BR>
Volume: 182.5 m^3.<BR>
Cost: Cr 45010.<BR>
Min Volume: .01 m^3.<BR>
The least expensive of the non nuclear options (requires atmosphere<BR>
to operate.)<BR>
<BR>
From this It seems reasonable to assume that fission will be usefull<BR>
for craft requiring less power than provided by the minimum<BR>
volume of fusion (unless volume must be lower than the 10 m^3<BR>
in which case solar seems to be the way to go if weight is the<BR>
primary limiting factor otherwise the choice should be<BR>
fuel cells.)<BR>
<BR>
Or the fuel requirements for the non nuclear plants may be<BR>
(as I suspect but don't know) too high.<BR>
<BR>
Oh well the FFS answer seems to be clear. Use the nukes.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:39:09 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Full-auto fun...<BR>
<BR>
Gary Miles <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com> writes (regarding an episode<BR>
of "American Shooter" on TNN):<BR>
<BR>
> They had a story about a guy who was a retired airline pilot, but who know <BR>
> is quite rich due to his invention of an ammo reloader. It seems he invented <BR>
> this new type of reloader to keep up with his hobby... full auto.<BR>
> <BR>
> Here is a short list of the toys that he owns, and shares with his family <BR>
> and friends on his ranch:<BR>
<BR>
        [...list of cool NFA stuff deleted to save space...]<BR>
<BR>
> They showed him and his family and friends shooting full-auto rock-and-roll <BR>
> at night with tracers. At one point, they sent up a remote-controlled drone <BR>
> loaded with an explosive charge that went BOOM when someone hit it with <BR>
> their MG.<BR>
<BR>
Aah, yes. That would be Mike Dillon of Dillon Precision you're describing.<BR>
His company makes arguably the best ammo reloading gear in the industry.<BR>
His antics with the explosives-filled RC planes can be seen on the<BR>
commercially available video "Firestorm in the Desert."  I've got a copy<BR>
and it's a hoot!<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Not a damn thing. :^/<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), GOA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything<BR>
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."<BR>
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature<BR>
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives<BR>
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:12:37 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example<BR>
<BR>
shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) puts out on the ether:<BR>
 >>From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
 >>Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
 >><< actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new, in<BR>
 >> dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington! >><BR>
 >>I think a lot of people in other parts of the country would cheer you<BR>
 >>on...:-). Now if you could only take NY, NJ and Mass with you...:-)<BR>
 >ISTR a somewhat cheezy small-press board wargame called "Shattered States"...<BR>
<BR>
This is part of the background of FASA's way overpriced board game "Crimson <BR>
Skies."<BR>
The US splinters after the crash of ''29.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for<BR>
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:17:31 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Was TL of troops now Mismatched Craft  <BR>
<BR>
At 05:29 PM 2/14/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Was written:<BR>
>A more interesting matchup would be an  aircraft with Harrier style flight<BR>
>capabilities vs. your nice fast jet figher, say one of those jets the frogs<BR>
>flogged about the world not to long ago.  Such a matchup did occur some<BR>
>years back in the Brit vs. Arggies dust up. The tech is about the same but<BR>
>the Harriers came out on top.  That said what about a chopper vs.  a nice<BR>
>fast jet fighter.  There is some official doctrine on these matchups as<BR>
>well.  If the slower more manuverable craft has the capacity to reach out<BR>
>and touch his opponent and the terrain lets him dodge in the ground clutter,<BR>
>i.e. get lost in it,  well... it would be a bit like trying to fight a<BR>
>badger on the ground and giving the badger a set of very long claws in the<BR>
>bargain.<BR>
><BR>
>Dan<BR>
<BR>
        I recall a chat with a Warthog pilot one airshow here in Halifax a<BR>
few years ago...  his comment was that there wasn't an air superiority<BR>
fighter in the world he worried about...   Hinds and Apaches, on the other<BR>
hand...<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:52:34 +0400<BR>
From: "andrew Long" <andylong@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Port Sunlight (was: outdated laws)<BR>
<BR>
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<BR>
Hash: SHA1<BR>
<BR>
- - -----Original Message-----<BR>
on Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:14:09 -0800, Evyn MacDude<BR>
<wmacdude@worldnet.att.net> posted<BR>
>>>><BR>
> Oh, the smell!<BR>
<BR>
What they forget to bath?<BR>
<BR>
<<< but Dom had already replied - >>>><BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Hadn't thought of that. And CJ Cherryh has a book called 'Port<BR>
Eternity'.<BR>
<BR>
Port Sunlight is the location of Lever Brothers, one of the two <BR>
companies which formed Unilever.<BR>
<BR>
<<<<<BR>
<BR>
It's a major chemical plant. I drove through there once (yes, just<BR>
once) many years ago. I had the car windows closed up tight, the air<BR>
on 'recycle', and the chemical stench STILL managed to leak through<BR>
into the car. Made me want to gag. Don't know how people can actually<BR>
live there...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: There are obviously many industrial worlds in the Imperium.<BR>
People who live there are used to the smells/noises/flashing lights -<BR>
but to the visiting PC group, it'll be a continuous assault on their<BR>
senses. The wily GM can use this fact to conceal some important clue<BR>
to the scenario in the general chaos going on around them.<BR>
<BR>
Andy<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:29:35 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2000 3:39 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Outdated Laws...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> The Roc wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Funny you should say that, but in Australia, it has been done by<BR>
Australian<BR>
> > police, to wheel out an outdated law (in regards to a fetish club in<BR>
Sydney)<BR>
> > to prosecute an individual who interpreted more recent laws as<BR>
superseding<BR>
> > the old one... the police simply chose which law they were working to,<BR>
and<BR>
> > the man was fined $250 in an Australian court of law.<BR>
><BR>
> Did the police use the one that should be in effect?<BR>
> Did the defendant appeal arguing the law applied wasn't effective all the<BR>
> way to his court of last resort?<BR>
> Things that don't get appealed don't get ruled on.<BR>
<BR>
His lawyer argued that the old law was superceded by the new one, and<BR>
thought the judge actually agreed, he was still found guilty of the old one.<BR>
<BR>
One must remember that we still have out here, Head Judges (whatever they<BR>
are called?) who speak openly in the media about female rape victems<BR>
bringing the trauma of rape upon themselves, and that it is acceptable for a<BR>
husband to chastise (hit) his wife under certain circumstances (this one<BR>
after a wife sued her husband after he gave her a severe beating while he<BR>
was drunk).<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:29:43 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
>>>	Although true, this is not a principle that can be extended to all<BR>
>>>facets of government policy.  Just because a 'vast majority' of people<BR>
>>>'want' something, doesn't make it right.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>I just love it. "The people" are the final arbiters, except just because a<BR>
>>majority of them want something it isn't right. "The people" hold final<BR>
>>power but if they attempt to exercise that power that fact that a majority<BR>
>>of them have expressed their will isn't a valid exercise of that power.<BR>
>><BR>
>>So in what way are they allowed to make decisions? It seems that an<BR>
exercise<BR>
>>of power by their elected officials is also not valid. So "the people" are<BR>
>>all powerful, as long as they don't do anything.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, to deliberately pick an emotionally-laden example, if a majority of<BR>
>Americans voted to make homosexuality a crime, or a majority of Germans<BR>
>voted to eliminate the Jewish problem, would that make those actions right?<BR>
><BR>
That's not the point. The point is that if "the people" own federal land<BR>
(and they do) then they should be able to control its use. Except that there<BR>
is no "the people". There's me, who might think that the land should be<BR>
preserved, and that the best way to do that is to prevent humans from<BR>
tromping all over it. Then there might be you who thinks that backpackers<BR>
and day hikers and horse riders should be able utilize the area. Then<BR>
there's my Uncle Vito who can make a killing putting condo's on it and<BR>
thinks that not only should he be able to, but that the state should pay for<BR>
new roads, water and sewage lines, and cut him a tax break besides. Which<BR>
one of us is "the people" who owns the land. And if we do shouldn't we be<BR>
able to do what we want with it?<BR>
<BR>
And as for your emotionally charged example there are quite a few people who<BR>
believe that at least the first should be a crime. (Hell in half the states<BR>
and all the armed services it already is, even though it's not heavily<BR>
enforced.) And of course there's a minority, but still quite a few people<BR>
who not only think that it should be legal but that homosexual marriage<BR>
should be legal.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Not a problem in the 3I. The Imperium owns what it owns. I suspect<BR>
that the Emperor owns all Imperial lands and all of the lands given in fief<BR>
to all of the members of the peerage. He also owns vast amounts of stock in<BR>
the Megacorps.<BR>
<BR>
If a world gets on the wrong side of the Imperium then, when the smoke<BR>
clears, the Imperium might end up owning some, or all of that world.  And of<BR>
course if you commit a crime against the Imperium I suspect that your lands<BR>
and other possessions might be forfeit.  I had thought that this kind of<BR>
general confiscation of land was illegal in the U.S., but recent anti-drug<BR>
laws seem to not support this interpretation. Of course to make it really<BR>
interesting you could have this as a sentence that is only applicable to<BR>
Nobles. A regular citizen might be charge a specific fine, or sent to jail<BR>
or be executed. But only a Noble could have title and lands stripped from<BR>
him/her, leaving family destitute and perhaps even under sentence<BR>
themselves. (There's a name for this kind of punishment, where the<BR>
descendents of a criminal are also punished for his crime, but I forget what<BR>
it is.)<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:56:32 +1000<BR>
From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
Lots of message deleted<BR>
>A regular citizen might be charge a specific fine, or sent to jail<BR>
>or be executed. But only a Noble could have title and lands stripped from<BR>
>him/her, leaving family destitute and perhaps even under sentence<BR>
>themselves. (There's a name for this kind of punishment, where the<BR>
>descendents of a criminal are also punished for his crime, but I forget what<BR>
>it is.)<BR>
<BR>
I think it's called Proscription (that's off the top of my head people... ). <BR>
A family that suffers that fate has been Proscribed.<BR>
<BR>
Scout Harry<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:11:32 -0600<BR>
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example (Was:  Re: Jtas copyright) <BR>
<BR>
>While you may disagree with the state's requirement for a drivers<BR>
>license, it is still a legally and constitutionally valid requirement<BR>
>for operating a motor vehicle on public roadways.<BR>
<BR>
You should also check to see which motor vehicles are exempted from such<BR>
laws.<BR>
<BR>
I have seen the operators of the following vehicles exempted from<BR>
needing drivers licences:  farm tractors, properly licenced farm trucks,<BR>
mopeds, and some motorcycles.  But this varies from county to county,<BR>
and state to state.<BR>
<BR>
Charles<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:32:45 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/20/00 10:47:40 PM !!!First Boot!!!, eris@pcola.gulf.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Man, this is *so* off topic!  But I can't resist putting my two Cr in... >><BR>
<BR>
very, very, VERY well said!!! There are SOME intellectuals in Nevada...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:04:17 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Nuclear power in space (was : Re: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
<concise summary of the safety and ill-deserved reputation of fission<BR>
snipped><BR>
> Admiteddly, too many power reactors are based on designs originally<BR>
> intended for producing plutonium.<BR>
<BR>
Breeding cycles are the best way to use the uranium and thorium we've<BR>
access to - to make more fuel. Instead of running out of fissile<BR>
material in a few centuries, take the millenial long view...<BR>
<BR>
> For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't say for sure<BR>
> til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
G:Trav (G:Vehicles) uses the following :-<BR>
Fission<BR>
GTL        Mass (lbm)    Cost (per lbm)*  Lifespan<BR>
7          (8*kW)+20000  200              2 years for all<BR>
8          (4*kW)+4000   100<BR>
9          kW+1000       40<BR>
10+        kW+1000       20<BR>
<BR>
kW - power output, kW. Minimum 5kW out.<BR>
Plant volume = (plant mass / 50) cubic feet <BR>
* - minimum cost $20000, cores cost $400K for GTL 7, $200K for GTL 8,<BR>
$40K for GTL 9<BR>
Refuelling : $80K per 1MW of plant capacity (10MW for GTL 9+)<BR>
<BR>
Radiothermal generators and 'Nuclear Power Units' - a high energy<BR>
density RTG - are also described. These have lifespans ranging<BR>
from 6 months to 14 years on a single fuel load (a much more realistic<BR>
treatment than previous editions).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
(material from G:Vehicles remains copyright of the authors and Steve<BR>
Jackson Games, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:08:05 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
Rob,<BR>
What ruleset are the long descriptions based on?<BR>
G:Animals, Uplift, or something else?<BR>
<BR>
> They are radially symmetric, having 6<BR>
> grasping paws and an invertebrate posture.<BR>
Posture should be horizontal or vertical only.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:12:19 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
Rob,<BR>
What ruleset are the long descriptions based on?<BR>
G:Animals, Uplift, or something else?<BR>
<BR>
> They are radially symmetric, having 6<BR>
> grasping paws and an invertebrate posture.<BR>
Posture should be horizontal or vertical only.<BR>
<BR>
> They have 3 eyes placed all around<BR>
Visual field : number of directions? degrees of arc?<BR>
<BR>
Formatting comment :-<BR>
This may be an artifact of the mail server, but each block<BR>
(appearance/special features/symmetry, locomotion,<BR>
posture/reproduction/senses) should be broken up - a paragraph for each?<BR>
<BR>
Otherwise - wow! Looks like great stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:15:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT (long w/legal citations)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:09:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
>>>Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>>> > actually, I'd take Washington, Oregon, and California and make a new,<BR>
> in<BR>
>>> > dependant nation. Bye, Bye Washington!<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>Well, to start with, DC *will* object to losing the entire West<BR>
>>>Coast. And the folks in WA and OR *aren't* goin to accept CA easily.<BR>
>>>Northern CA, maybe. Southern CA, no way!<BR>
>><BR>
>>Exactly.  We'll (Oregon) gladly take Washington and California down to a<BR>
>>little south of the bay (to include the People's Republic of<BR>
>>Berkeley).  Then we shut off the water and power lines that are keeping LA<BR>
>>on full life-support, and they can either learn to live sustainably in a<BR>
>>natural desert climate or die.  >:)<BR>
><BR>
> No problem. Well just crack hydrogen out of the ocean and use gas turbines<BR>
> and hydrogen fired boilers to desalinate ocean water, and pay for it all<BR>
> with federal funds so YOU can pay for it.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but "cracking hydrogen out of the ocean" will *use* more power<BR>
than is produced by burning it. How are you going to get the power in<BR>
the first place? Remember, the big tieline to the dams on the Columbia<BR>
won't be shipping power to you anymore. <BR>
<BR>
And we wouldn't be part of the folks paying those "federal funds". In<BR>
fact, you might find a lot of them wondering if Southern CA was worth<BR>
the trouble to keep it...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:21:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs<BR>
>> to use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket<BR>
>> engine of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive<BR>
>> material). For non-starships it should be a definite win until smal<BR>
>> fusion plants appear. For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't<BR>
>> say for sure til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.<BR>
><BR>
> This is one thing I found a bit strange with FF&S. I recently designed a<BR>
> ship using a fusion rocket, and it is supposedly extremely radioactive<BR>
> (don't pass within 200 kilometers behind it). Is this really realistic?<BR>
> How exactly is a fusion rocket supposed to work? Fusion of hydrogen<BR>
> creates helium, a stable substance by any standards.<BR>
<BR>
*Some* fusion reactions produce He. <BR>
<BR>
        d + d -> He4<BR>
p + p + p + p -> He4<BR>
<BR>
The first requires moderately high temps and pressures. The second<BR>
requires *extremely* high temps and pressures. <BR>
<BR>
t + d -> He4 + n<BR>
t + t -> ???<BR>
<BR>
These are lower temp reactions, and produce lots of neutrons, which can<BR>
create lots of radioactive materials. <BR>
<BR>
The you get to reactions involving Li, Be, He3, etc. All of those are<BR>
going to be fairly "dirty" also. But *much* easier to ignite.<BR>
<BR>
Also, if it's a true fusion rocket as opposed to using a fusion reactor<BR>
to heat fuel, you'll have a lot of gamma pouring out the tail end.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:04:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: TNE query<BR>
<BR>
Hello all,<BR>
<BR>
As I stated before, I'm a newbie here, and although I have owned TNE for<BR>
years (since it first came out), I have never been able to run more than a<BR>
couple scenarios, and *never* talked to someone else who owned it (a<BR>
crying shame!). So, I have some questions and the following one seems like<BR>
a good place to start for me :)<BR>
<BR>
I still have my cherished friends, the 3 lil black books. In CT you made<BR>
your trip through J-space and back to N-space, refuelled and that was<BR>
basically it. In TNE it seemed to work out differently.<BR>
<BR>
Okay...let's say you have a TL-12 Fat Trader and you have 30 G Hours for<BR>
maneuver and 11.2 for one 1 jump 1. (total 41.2 Gh)<BR>
<BR>
So, you start your drives, travel to orbit, etc...You spend 1 G Hour<BR>
worth to accelrate out (maybe you aren't in a rush) from a Planet size 6,<BR>
7.6 hours later you are at 100 diameters and Jump...You have now used 12.2<BR>
G hours of your fuel. One week later you pop out, and normally you'd just<BR>
spend the 1 G Hour to slowdown (tack on the 10% course correction if you<BR>
like) so we are now at 13.3...<BR>
<BR>
Let's say instead you jumped into an "empty" parsec, and want to jump<BR>
again (without using those aux tanks). So you are back to 12.2 Gh, you<BR>
jump again going to 23.4, and there is still room to jump even one more<BR>
time and slow down to boot. Granted if you get into some serious in-system<BR>
movement or some combat you will probably burn some fuel, but let's say<BR>
you aren't doing those things.<BR>
<BR>
So with a TL-12 Sub Merchant, I can go 3 parsecs in 3 weeks, without a<BR>
pitstop! Is this right or have I miscalculated horribly somewhere? This<BR>
may seem a silly question, but it has bugged me for years! You couldn't<BR>
get away with that in CT.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:31:49 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: WA, OR, CA country - straying significantly OT<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry, but "cracking hydrogen out of the ocean" will *use* more power<BR>
>than is produced by burning it.<BR>
<BR>
Not if we use *Traveller* equipment. By the time we can actually orgainize<BR>
this, we will already be at the right TL.<BR>
<BR>
>And we wouldn't be part of the folks paying those "federal funds". In<BR>
>fact, you might find a lot of them wondering if Southern CA was worth<BR>
>the trouble to keep it...<BR>
<BR>
I live in northern California, and have no problem with keeping the southern<BR>
part. The ones wondering are probably the ones who haven't been to San<BR>
Diego. I say we let LA stay with the rest of the country, however. Aren't<BR>
they the ones who gave us the T4 fiasco? And the wealth created by all of<BR>
that Hollywood stuff is not even what you get from *one* good high-tech<BR>
start-up. Having to use your passport as you drive through on I-5 is a small<BR>
price to pay.<BR>
<BR>
Isn't Federal Funds actually the money which banks lend to each other<BR>
overnight to meet fractional reserve requirements?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1949<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1950</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 21 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1950<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Monitors & Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
My last Mac post (this week), with ObTrav!<BR>
Re: WA, OR, CA country - straying significantly OT<BR>
Back after a long break<BR>
Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Humour: Your Traveller Universe is Too English When...<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re:OT<BR>
Re: Humour: Your Traveller Universe is Too English When...<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
Re: The Point of Brubeks?<BR>
Traveller miniatures and others<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
RE: TDX and generalizations<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: Belter Alert! RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
Re: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re: Humour: Your Traveller Universe is Too English When...<BR>
Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:20:31 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Monitors & Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
<BR>
In mail you all write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Apologies for the OT question, but does anyone know if a Mac LC will <BR>
>> run MacOS 7.5.2?<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry, don't know. But if it's at least a 68000, and has at least 4 meg<BR>
>of RAM, it should be able to. And 7.5.3 is available on Apple's web<BR>
>site. So is (if you dig) the file needed to upgrade that to 7.5.5.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 The LC is built on a 68020, and tops out at 10MB RAM. Given that later<BR>
machines with 4-8MB run the 7.5 family, the LC ought to do, but barely.<BR>
<BR>
>Now for *my* question. I've come into possesion of a Radius 2 page<BR>
>monitor & card. The card is for an SE 30. The card slot in my SE 30 is<BR>
>taken up by an ethernet card. I'm getting a IIcx, will the card fit<BR>
>that? If not, are the cards available for using this monitor with the<BR>
>IIcx *or* with a PC clone?<BR>
<BR>
 I'd need to check my references, but I believe the only machine with THAT<BR>
slot in common with the SE 30 is the IIsi. As for the monitor itself, check<BR>
its model number. A 100 series or 300 series, IIRC, can be run on a wide<BR>
variety of video cards and/or built-in video up to about the 6100. The 200<BR>
series are tied to their specific video cards. Be warned that I may have these<BR>
backwards. Check at http://www.griffintechnology.com/ and take a look at<BR>
their monitor/adapter database. If they list your monitor and an appropriate<BR>
adapter, you can probably plug that behemoth into nearly anything...<BR>
<BR>
OT apologies...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:41:53 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: My last Mac post (this week), with ObTrav!<BR>
<BR>
Rob Prior sez:<BR>
<BR>
>We've had 7.5.3 installed on our LC IIs at school. Seems to work OK, and<BR>
<BR>
>the LCII has the same processor etc as an LC.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not quite. LC has 68020, LCII and LCIII are '030 machines. The LCII has<BR>
the same odd RAM math that the LC has (in which 4+4+4=10), while LCIII<BR>
finally gets it straight.<BR>
<BR>
Dom sez:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, it runs on 7.0.1 if I remember correctly but you can't get 7.1 <BR>
<BR>
>etc from the Apple site anymore. I seem to recall that the download <BR>
<BR>
>starts at 7.5.3 now.<BR>
<BR>
 System 7.1 was never available for free in any form. All earlier<BR>
versions can still be had ( somewhere in the 4s up to 7.0.1), and 7.5.3<BR>
was added to the free list last year. System 7.5.3 is indeed VERY stable<BR>
until you hit the PCI PowerMacs.<BR>
<BR>
 ObTrav: Should be obvious to anyone who read the "mismatched ship<BR>
components" thread from several weeks ago. Change the names and<BR>
numbers and you've got Engineer technobabble to spew at the players<BR>
being told to clear out for annual maintenance...<BR>
<BR>
 "You've been running these C&G 700's on a ship with a Makline comp?<BR>
Which ROMrev? Oh, My. I'm sorry, but I'll have to change my mind on<BR>
your staying aboard during refit. You see, we're going to be ripping<BR>
these babies out along with most of the floor plates..."<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:31:52 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WA, OR, CA country - straying significantly OT<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Sorry, but "cracking hydrogen out of the ocean" will *use* more power<BR>
>>than is produced by burning it.<BR>
><BR>
>Not if we use *Traveller* equipment. By the time we can actually orgainize<BR>
>this, we will already be at the right TL.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard is correct.<BR>
<BR>
If you have working fusion reactors, cracking water to produce hydrogen<BR>
and oxygen might use less power than you had available and you would then<BR>
be able to supply the fuel cells to keep your cars running, but burning<BR>
the hydrogen in gas turbines to make electricity to crack water to make<BR>
hydrogen is a completely silly idea.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, desalination plants use filters to remove the salt, although they<BR>
still need a reasonable amount of power to run the station and pump the<BR>
water through the filters.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:38:54 +1100<BR>
From: "Craig Barnett" <craig_barnett@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Back after a long break<BR>
<BR>
Not that many will have noticed my absence (as I didn't post all that <BR>
much), I'm back, after a long, long break - at least 6 months...<BR>
<BR>
I've been very busy looking after my new additions - twin boys to go <BR>
along with my handful of a three year old girl. Life has been very <BR>
full, and I haven't had a lot (read that any) time for Traveller or <BR>
GURPS, but I'm going to try and keep up with the list again, lurking <BR>
mostly, and posting stuff I come up with.  Turn around for any <BR>
replies will probably be in days, unfortunately, at least at first!<BR>
<BR>
BTW, has any more work been done on the 101st Batron in recent <BR>
months, or did it die a slow death?  I'd be interested in helping get <BR>
it up and going again if there's any interest still about.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Craig (*tired* father of three)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:06:21 +1100<BR>
From: "AB" <ab@rossmack.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
On the subject of walkthroughs - I have created some Doom WADs based on<BR>
Traveller deckplans.  This thread prompted me to post them (the mostly<BR>
finished and non-corrupted ones, anyway) to my web site.<BR>
<BR>
I put up some screen shots too.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone is interested check out:<BR>
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/RPG/traveller/TravDoomIndex.asp<BR>
<BR>
- -AB<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:14:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Lots of message deleted<BR>
>>A regular citizen might be charge a specific fine, or sent to jail<BR>
>>or be executed. But only a Noble could have title and lands stripped from<BR>
>>him/her, leaving family destitute and perhaps even under sentence<BR>
>>themselves. (There's a name for this kind of punishment, where the<BR>
>>descendents of a criminal are also punished for his crime, but I forget what<BR>
>>it is.)<BR>
<BR>
"Corruption of Blood". It's specificly mentioned in the US<BR>
Constitution. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:49:07 +0000<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Humour: Your Traveller Universe is Too English When...<BR>
<BR>
I can't believe nobody's done this one yet! Here's a start.<BR>
<BR>
Your Traveller Universe is Too English When:<BR>
<BR>
* The Imperium consists of a few worlds in the Islands Cluster and<BR>
people look back with nostalgia on the time when it controlled Known<BR>
Space.<BR>
<BR>
* None of the environmental systems work properly, people talk about it<BR>
all the time, but nobody does anything about it.<BR>
<BR>
* The Moot runs the Imperium and the Empress is just a figurehead; the<BR>
people debate endlessly whether she should be abolished or not.<BR>
<BR>
* There is no draft.<BR>
<BR>
* The great "Coreward/Rimward divide" results in friendly Coretherners<BR>
with impenetrable accents, stuck-up Rimmers whose idea of customer<BR>
service is to glare at you and a mass migration Rimward in search of<BR>
jobs.<BR>
<BR>
* Ancient laws allow a Gushemege resident to shoot a member of the<BR>
Ilelish cultural region with a PGMP-12 (though the Imperium-wide ban on<BR>
civilian PGMP ownership makes this difficult).<BR>
<BR>
* Nobody wants to eat Imperial beef.<BR>
<BR>
OR, from a different perspective:<BR>
<BR>
* Worlds debate endlessly about whether to join the Imperium or not.<BR>
They eventually decide to do so - grudgingly - provided they don't have<BR>
to use Imperial Credits. They then whinge about the Imperial Ag Policy.<BR>
<BR>
* Worlds hate each other based on wars they fought thousands of years<BR>
ago, even though they've been allies since.<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:20:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:17:50 PST<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>>In short, nuclear power has gotten a *really* bad rap based on a<BR>
>>combination of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) tactics by the<BR>
>>anti-nukes, and association with nuclear weapons. It doesn't deserve<BR>
>>it.<BR>
><BR>
> A couple of points. 1) If I recall correctly several layers of the TMI<BR>
> safety system failed before the last ditch failsafe (that according to<BR>
> the power co. and the DOE would never be needed because the<BR>
> other safety measures were foolproof) finaly kicked in. 2) Those<BR>
> redundant safety systems are mandated because of the anti-nuke<BR>
> power types you deride. Without the scare tactics of the protestors<BR>
> TMI could very well have been as bad if not worse than Chernobyl.<BR>
<BR>
Accounts vary regarding that.<BR>
<BR>
> 3) After a nuclear plants usefull service life is over(say 40-50 years<BR>
> or therabouts) You are left with a large amount of radiactive<BR>
> crap to deal with. (not just the fuel rods but also the containment<BR>
> building itself is too hot to deal with for quite some time.)<BR>
> So you either have to dismantle the containment building (and find<BR>
> someplace to dump all that radioactive steel, concrete, etc.)<BR>
> or you leave the containment building in place untill the<BR>
> radioactivity runs down to a reasonable level. (which means<BR>
> that after it's usefull life the nuke plant will take up lots of space<BR>
> that could theoretically be put to better use.)<BR>
<BR>
Which is one rreason why the plans for many plants originally included<BR>
enough room to build new reactors next to the old ones. The cooling<BR>
towers wouldn't care, and you save on the land. <BR>
<BR>
> On the plus side nuclear power produces almost no air polution.<BR>
> (Though this is true of wind and solar power as well. And you don't<BR>
> have the wory of nuclear contamination with these power sources.)<BR>
<BR>
But wind and solar aren't reliable enough, nor are they "concentrated"<BR>
enough. A 1 gigawatt solar or wind plant covers truly amazing amounts<BR>
of territory.<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry about the rant. You are correct that in the short run nuclear power<BR>
> is reasonably safe. It's in the long run that the problems come up.<BR>
<BR>
Even the waste disposal problems are as bad as many think. <BR>
<BR>
>>Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs to<BR>
>>use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket engine<BR>
>>of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive material).<BR>
><BR>
> Has somebody actually managed to build one of those?  My understanding<BR>
> is theoretically posible but not practically do-able.<BR>
<BR>
They had a full up system that differed from what would be flown only<BR>
in the way the pieces were laid out *running* at full thrust at the<BR>
Idaho reactor tests site back in the mid 60s. <BR>
<BR>
It's *quite* doable to build units that get something like double the<BR>
Isp of the shuttle main engines. It's just that they *weigh* a lot more<BR>
than shuttle engines. So they aren't useful for getting from ground to<BR>
orbit. But they'd be great for interplanetary missions, especially<BR>
manned ones. <BR>
<BR>
Look up Nerva, and Project Pluto. I could give more exact cites, but I<BR>
don't feel like digging for the old magazine that has the report on the<BR>
project. But they were built and tested at full scale and full thrust.<BR>
And it must have been spectacular when this hydrogen gass at around<BR>
1500 C (or higher?) hit the open air after leaving the nozzle.<BR>
<BR>
These were solid core engines. The reactor was a block of graphite with<BR>
fuel pellets embedded in it, and the fuel (LH2) went thru channels in<BR>
the graphite. <BR>
<BR>
There have been discussions of liquid and gaseous reactors, but I'm not<BR>
up on those. And they are definitely in the experimental/theoretical<BR>
stage. <BR>
<BR>
But there are a *lot* of space related things we've been *capable* of<BR>
doing since the mid 60s, but that have been moldering away forgotten<BR>
ever since the space cutbacks.<BR>
<BR>
>>For<BR>
>>non-starships it should be a definite win until smal fusion plants<BR>
>>appear. For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't say for sure<BR>
>>til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.<BR>
><BR>
> Well according to FFS fission has a zone of usability up to TL 12<BR>
> (when the minimum size fusion plant matches the minimum fission<BR>
> plant.) Perhaps some comparisons with other pp types are in order.<BR>
><BR>
> at TL 8 Fission produces 1MW, masses 6 tonnes, and costs MCr .1<BR>
> per m^3. It consumes .1 m^3 per year per MW in fuel (radioactives).<BR>
> The minimum volume is 10 m^3.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> From this It seems reasonable to assume that fission will be usefull<BR>
> for craft requiring less power than provided by the minimum<BR>
> volume of fusion (unless volume must be lower than the 10 m^3<BR>
> in which case solar seems to be the way to go if weight is the<BR>
> primary limiting factor otherwise the choice should be<BR>
> fuel cells.)<BR>
<BR>
Well, actually, the minimum size for a reactor is more like a couple of<BR>
liters! Critical mass of plutonium in aqueous solution is a liter or so<BR>
of solution. With sufficient ingenuity making that into a combo<BR>
boiler/heat exchanger would be fairly easy. Drain the water from the<BR>
heat exchange tubing and the reaction *has* to stop. <BR>
<BR>
It'd be low power. But not *that* low. I'd guess somewhere between a<BR>
lawnmower engine and a car engine. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 06:44:47 -0600<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re:OT<BR>
<BR>
A while ago on this list, I saw a <BR>
reference to a CJ Cherryh List.<BR>
Someone was kind enough to give me<BR>
the details thereunto.<BR>
<BR>
I have however been dunderheaded <BR>
to the extent that I have lost the info.<BR>
<BR>
To whomever sent the original info - <BR>
please send again. I'd appreciate it.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:36:24 GMT<BR>
From: "i Steve" <isteve1967@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Humour: Your Traveller Universe is Too English When...<BR>
<BR>
As an Englishman I find this deeply amusing....lol<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
isteve@outhere.f9.co.uk<BR>
isteve1967@hotmail.com<BR>
ICQ#54933683<BR>
<BR>
Yoda DOS: (A)bort or (F)ail, there is no (R)etry....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:28:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
That last is a "Spaceling" taken from the book "Reefs of Space".  They<BR>
generate their own atmosphere around their bodies (though I don't remember<BR>
how).  I have used them to annoy Belter characters since Supplement 4 first<BR>
introduced them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
> I remember an old Space Master(from ICE) companion where they proposed<BR>
> space lifeforms, either genetically created or naturally evolved. They<BR>
even<BR>
> proposed an intelligent natural space-dweller species living in an<BR>
asteroid<BR>
> belt.<BR>
><BR>
> Has anyone ever used such things in Trav?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:32:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Point of Brubeks?<BR>
<BR>
Downport has the server and software for it, but we have yet to land a<BR>
volunteer willing to develop it.  Any interested parties?<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
> OTOH, if something like that focused on Traveller it might lure me<BR>
> in.  Put a Starport, Startown, and then surrounding country online.<BR>
> People could add ships that "landed" at the port and traveled to<BR>
> other systems which could be developed...  Maybe Downport should set<BR>
> up a MUD/MUSH/MOO instead of (or in addition to) an NNTP server?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:04:23 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller miniatures and others<BR>
<BR>
I was going to hold off sending this to the list until it was completed.<BR>
However, I don't think I'll be able to work on the web page for a few days. <BR>
Check out my new improved miniature pages...<BR>
<BR>
    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Now sorted by genre, I've completely reorganized my miniatures photographs.<BR>
I just got some new photos back from the developers this weekend and a few<BR>
new starships are up.  I included the Hiver (for which I requested painting<BR>
instructions on the TML), a gazelle, a free trader, a fat trader and more. I<BR>
will be adding more images soon.<BR>
<BR>
I would appreciate any additional information on my miniatures, especially<BR>
the Horror and SF Misc. Even when I kept the packaging, frequently the<BR>
titles were on a sheet of paper which, of course, I promptly misplaced. <BR>
<BR>
I would like to thank Bill Rutherford for his tutorial on how he photographs<BR>
miniatures. On his recomendation, most of the new shot were taken with long<BR>
exposures. I'm getting better at the photography.<BR>
<BR>
As an aside, I'm becoming very popular with the Target 1-Hour<BR>
photo-development guy. He has made some color corrections to compensate for<BR>
my lighting and I think he's keeping copies of the prints for himself. :-\<BR>
<BR>
Bye,<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:22:13 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
At 03:20 am 2/21/00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>Well, actually, the minimum size for a reactor is more like a couple<BR>
of<BR>
>liters! Critical mass of plutonium in aqueous solution is a liter or<BR>
so<BR>
>of solution. With sufficient ingenuity making that into a combo<BR>
>boiler/heat exchanger would be fairly easy. Drain the water from the<BR>
>heat exchange tubing and the reaction *has* to stop. <BR>
><BR>
>It'd be low power. But not *that* low. I'd guess somewhere between a<BR>
>lawnmower engine and a car engine. <BR>
<BR>
	I wanna own the first nuclear-powered lawnmower on my block! Where<BR>
can I get a liter or so of plutonium in an aqueous solution? And has<BR>
Ditzie tried this yet?<BR>
<BR>
- -- Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft<BR>
product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:24:09 +0000<BR>
From: Andy Coombes <coombes@bcs.org.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: TDX and generalizations<BR>
<BR>
>Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>> > If the 3I  technology  can  create  horizontally  exploding  TDX,<BR>
>> > wouldn't you expect a vertically exploding equivalent?  It  would<BR>
>> > be useful in  drilling  and  post  hole  creation  (and  possibly<BR>
>> > burrowing vermint hunting)?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Take this one step more. Suppose that you can locally manipulate<BR>
>> the gravity, say by including some gravitics in a warhead. Then<BR>
>> you can direct your blast in any direction you want. This could<BR>
>> be very useful.<BR>
>> <BR>
To a certain extent, this is what (gun)barrels do isn't it? direct the blast<BR>
of a (small) explosion in a particular direction - namely the base of a shell.<BR>
<BR>
So could gravitationally manipulated explosives be used to dispense with<BR>
gun barrels?<BR>
<BR>
Andy.<BR>
- ----<BR>
"Monsters don't eat fishcakes... They eat Elephants RAAA!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:18:39 -0500<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
> In the UK we find US submarines by watching fishing boats travelling<BR>
> backwards at speed.<BR>
> -- <BR>
> Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
This is true!  But, I have only heard of it happening with a Russian sub that<BR>
was in US waters.  My father was captain of a midwater dragnet boat off the<BR>
Washington coast (just south of Puget Sound inlet), when one of the boats in<BR>
the fleet caught something BIG in it's net.  The boat was pulled backward<BR>
for a ways before they managed to cut the cables from the winches.  Shortly <BR>
after that, a sub surfaced with a net draped over the front end.  The sub did<BR>
not stay on the surface for long though.  The captain of the fishing boat, and<BR>
possibly several other boats called in the sub to the US Navy.  Shortly, there<BR>
was a small fleet of destroyers, and sub hunting aircraft sweeping the area<BR>
for the sub, apparently Russian.  This happened in the summer of '84 I believe.<BR>
<BR>
It never hit the news, I only heard about this from my father and other<BR>
fisherman that I knew.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Eric & Diane Freitas<BR>
ericfrei@gte.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:46:39 -0500<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Belter Alert! RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, you wrote:<BR>
> http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/near.html<BR>
> <BR>
> There's even an animation, using real photos, of the<BR>
> asteroid's 5-day orbit.<BR>
> <BR>
> David<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone else noted the very well defined 'impact' crater on the inside<BR>
curve of the asteroid?  This asteroid _could_ have been moved <BR>
using atomic charges.  A number of charges set off at the<BR>
center of gravity of the asteroid could have been used in the past to<BR>
move this asteroid.  For a Milieu zero, or earlier campaign, this could<BR>
be useful material.  Has a radiation map of the asteroid been made?<BR>
I am only aware of the multi-spectral imagers, but don't know what <BR>
frequencies are being observed.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Eric & Diane Freitas<BR>
ericfrei@gte.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:17:49 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Prior wrote:<BR>
> 1) How many people would use an option to print<BR>
> Classic/MegaTraveller, TNE, or T4 stats? (It already supports metric,<BR>
> BTW.)<BR>
<BR>
I would use T4 stats. A general suggestion would be to add all the rules<BR>
systems, as we use different sets (I only use T4, for example).<BR>
<BR>
> 2) These are tab-delimited tables. I've also included HTML. Would<BR>
> anyone use this, or should I drop the HTML option from future<BR>
> products?<BR>
<BR>
HTML could be nice in some cases, although I would edit it by hand<BR>
before using it in any case.<BR>
<BR>
> 3) What about mono-spaced text?  Would anyone want this as an option?<BR>
> (It's not in there right now, and writing it would delay the release<BR>
> date a bit.)<BR>
<BR>
Not that useable, but could be. Save it for version 2.<BR>
<BR>
> 4) I haven't included the reaction probabilities from Traveller (A5<BR>
> F2 and so on). Should these go in?<BR>
<BR>
I have no idea. What are those codes anyway?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> 5) What information is missing?<BR>
<BR>
As noted above, the stats for other game systems. Other than that, I<BR>
don't see any problems.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:04:18 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Humour: Your Traveller Universe is Too English When...<BR>
<BR>
At 11:49 21.02.00 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>OR, from a different perspective:<BR>
><BR>
>* Worlds debate endlessly about whether to join the Imperium or not.<BR>
>They eventually decide to do so - grudgingly - provided they don't have<BR>
>to use Imperial Credits. They then whinge about the Imperial Ag Policy.<BR>
<BR>
LOL<BR>
<BR>
>* Worlds hate each other based on wars they fought thousands of years<BR>
>ago, even though they've been allies since.<BR>
<BR>
ROTFBTC - if it wasn't so sad...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:04:11 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
<BR>
At 18:39 20.02.00 -0800, Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Not a damn thing. :^/<BR>
<BR>
Hellooo? Have we got some kind of moderator here? Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
>   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything<BR>
>    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."<BR>
<BR>
"Just because some people have said something in the past that doesn't mean<BR>
it's any wiser than things people say or think in the present. Actually,<BR>
it's mostly the other way round."<BR>
<BR>
(claimed to be said by) Alexander the Great, about 330 BC<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:04:21 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
At 21:42 20.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
(snip- some OT stuff)<BR>
<BR>
>>Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs to<BR>
>>use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket engine<BR>
>>of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive material).<BR>
><BR>
>Has somebody actually managed to build one of those?  My understanding<BR>
>is theoretically posible but not practically do-able.<BR>
<BR>
As an SF fan, I would say: If it's theorieticvally possible, just wait, and<BR>
someone will come up with the practical solution.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:04:16 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 09:28 21.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>That last is a "Spaceling" taken from the book "Reefs of Space".  They<BR>
>generate their own atmosphere around their bodies (though I don't remember<BR>
>how).  I have used them to annoy Belter characters since Supplement 4 first<BR>
>introduced them. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I remember that one, too.  But I think that was more "space fantasy"<BR>
since it assumed a lot of "super-bio-tech" like cellular fusion reactors, etc.<BR>
<BR>
No, the space ecosystem I meant (SM:CII) was fed by radiation, which lets<BR>
"space mosses" grow. Several lifeforms feed on these mosses, and are again<BR>
eaten by carnivores, etc.<BR>
<BR>
That ecosystem included an extremely high mutation rate, of course. I am<BR>
still thinking about to use them in my Traveller campaign, so: Has anyone<BR>
experiance with such things in play?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1950<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 21 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1951<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
RE: A real world example - OT<BR>
Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death already  sorry)<BR>
Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
Re: TNE query<BR>
Where did the planet texturemaps go?<BR>
Semi-OT: Need you to peek...<BR>
RE: Where did the planet texturemaps go?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1950<BR>
Re: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death already  s...<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re TNE<BR>
Who owns what? Part I - OT (long w/legal cites)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:04:23 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
At 12:17 20.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> At 20:01 19.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Most non-planetry or dangerous waste, I'd say, is either dropped into a<BR>
>> star (possibly) on a predefined orbit),<BR>
><BR>
>This is a very popular idea. It's also the *last* thing any<BR>
>civilization capable of doing it will do.<BR>
<BR>
[snip-some astronmy/physics]<BR>
<BR>
>So, it's the most expensive in terms of energy, and requires *high*<BR>
>accuracy. It also disposes of things *permanently* when it works. Which<BR>
>is not exactly a selling point since there will *always* be that chance<BR>
>you'll find a use for the stuff later.<BR>
<BR>
Good point. <BR>
<BR>
>> dumped on a small uninhabited and<BR>
>> lifeless moon in system (for later recycling when technology makes this<BR>
>> possible) , or dropped somewhere in deep space, one jump away from any<BR>
>> system. (Might lead to "waste planetoids" in deep space when the amsses<BR>
>> becoe large enough- adventure idea?)<BR>
><BR>
>Placing it on a moon in the outer system won't cost any more than using<BR>
>jump. Probably *less* since you can use automated drones, or just a big<BR>
>mass driver for transport. Garbage doesn't *care* if it's in transit<BR>
>for 20 or 50 years. And it'll be easier to get it to the right place. <BR>
<BR>
But as you stated above, a mass driver would lead to an orbit. Thinking in<BR>
terms of thousands of years, it would possibly come back.<BR>
<BR>
[snip-regulation of dumping waste]<BR>
>> OTOH, why would anyone _want_ to regulate it? There are no ecosystems that<BR>
>> could be harmed, there is alway more than enough uninhabited area to drop<BR>
>> that stuff... space travel would even solve the problem of radioactive<BR>
>> waste, if nuclear power plants weren't that risky during normal operation<BR>
>> (but perhaps there will be some technical solution to the latter some<BR>
day.) <BR>
><BR>
>Actually, nuclear reactors, even nuclear power plants *aren't* all that<BR>
>risky. <BR>
<BR>
This is<BR>
1. OT<BR>
2. Enough stuff to discuss for half a century (just as people do)<BR>
<BR>
>Three Mile Island had *more* things go wrong than even the anti-nuke<BR>
>folks had dared to suggest as a "worst case" acident. <BR>
<BR>
BTW: Could anyone tell me poor European what that Three Miles Island<BR>
incident is?<BR>
(We have our own "incidents" here, you know...)<BR>
<BR>
[snip- a lot of anger in a few paragraphs]<BR>
<BR>
>Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs to<BR>
>use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket engine<BR>
>of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive material). For<BR>
>non-starships it should be a definite win until smal fusion plants<BR>
>appear. For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't say for sure<BR>
>til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.<BR>
<BR>
.. which would possibly lead to the problem we originally discussed in this<BR>
thread. Just one thing: IMHO fission reactors are too risky, but that<BR>
doesn't matter for MTU: I don't think most planetary governments (or the<BR>
Imperium) would care about the risk if it was below a certain level, so I<BR>
deem fission starships fairly fitting for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 09:38:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
<BR>
At 06:04 PM 2/21/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>At 18:39 20.02.00 -0800, Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>ObTrav: Not a damn thing. :^/<BR>
><BR>
>Hellooo? Have we got some kind of moderator here? Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it's called adulthood. We're all big kids who can control ourselves.<BR>
In my time on the TML, there have only been two people who got to the point<BR>
of invoking the hatred of the entire group.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:40:38 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
> >   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything<BR>
> >    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."<BR>
><BR>
> "Just because some people have said something in the past that doesn't<BR>
mean<BR>
> it's any wiser than things people say or think in the present. Actually,<BR>
> it's mostly the other way round."<BR>
<BR>
"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:10:47 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone know if the Traveller Reprints have actually shipped?<BR>
<BR>
I saw they were going to be mailed on Feb. 15th.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks~!<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:35:32 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Should start shipping by the end of this week :-)<BR>
<BR>
Keep tabs on the reprints - http://www.downport.com/news/ <BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
> Does anyone know if the Traveller Reprints have actually shipped?<BR>
> <BR>
> I saw they were going to be mailed on Feb. 15th.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 08:16:10 -0000<BR>
From: "Alistair J. R. Young" <avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
> or be executed. But only a Noble could have title and lands stripped from<BR>
> him/her, leaving family destitute and perhaps even under sentence<BR>
> themselves. (There's a name for this kind of punishment, where the<BR>
> descendents of a criminal are also punished for his crime,<BR>
> but I forget what it is.)<BR>
<BR>
"Corruption of blood", normally invoked for treason and suchlike. ISTR that<BR>
there's a clause somewhere in the US constitution specifically ruling it<BR>
out.<BR>
<BR>
Alistair<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:17:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death already  sorry)<BR>
<BR>
Hello TML.<BR>
<BR>
I'm working slowly on my first contact years and I've hit a conundrum.<BR>
<BR>
When the Terrans and the Vilani first mixed it up the Terrans were TL 9<BR>
and the Vilani were tl 11.  Using High guard that limits the Terrans<BR>
ship size to 1K tons or less and the Vilani to 50K tons or less.<BR>
<BR>
Terra is only 7 jumps from Gasshida (at J2) the Vilani Sector Capitol.<BR>
<BR>
Why didn't the Terrans get the crap kicked out of them?  They managed to<BR>
hold off the ZS for 8 years with a relatively low tech (comparatively)<BR>
and low tonnage fleet and somehow won concessions at the end.<BR>
<BR>
How have other GM's out there dealt with this issue.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance<BR>
<BR>
(I already asked Rob Eaglestone off list but I'm curious as to how<BR>
others see this issue again if it's already been done to death apologies<BR>
in advance)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:19:10 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> On 16 Feb 00, at 18:09, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> > ...  Cats always<BR>
> > know when you're trying to throw them into water, and they<BR>
> > become rather upset.<BR>
><BR>
> There is that. I remember my sisters trying to wash our tomcat. There<BR>
> was water all over them, the bathroom floor and walls, but the cat was<BR>
> remarkably dry. I also saw the same cat do a credible job of walking on<BR>
> water by denial (if I say I'm not getting wet, then I'm not getting<BR>
> wet).<BR>
<BR>
A friend sent the following instructional post concerning the<BR>
topic:<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
Subject:  How to bathe the cat<BR>
<BR>
 1   Thoroughly clean the toilet.<BR>
<BR>
 2   Add the required amount of shampoo to the toilet<BR>
     water, and have both lids lifted.<BR>
<BR>
 3   Obtain the cat and soothe him while you carry him<BR>
     towards the bathroom.<BR>
<BR>
 4   In one smooth movement, put the cat in the toilet<BR>
     and close both lids (you may need to stand on the<BR>
     lid so that he cannot escape).<BR>
<BR>
CAUTION: Do not get any part of your body too close to<BR>
         the edge, as his paws will be reaching out for any<BR>
         purchase they can find.<BR>
<BR>
 5 The cat will self-agitate and make ample suds. Never<BR>
     mind the noises that come from your toilet, the cat is<BR>
     actually enjoying this.<BR>
<BR>
 6 Flush the toilet three or four times. This provides a<BR>
     power wash" and "rinse" which I have found to be<BR>
     quite effective.<BR>
<BR>
 7 Have someone open the door to the outside and ensure<BR>
     that there are no people between the toilet and the<BR>
     outside door.<BR>
<BR>
 8 Stand behind the toilet as far as you can, and quickly<BR>
     lift both lids.  The now-clean cat will rocket out of the toilet,<BR>
     and run outside where he will dry himself.<BR>
<BR>
Sincerely, The Dog<BR>
<<<<<<<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:27:23 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: TNE query<BR>
<BR>
>Let's say instead you jumped into an "empty" parsec, and want to jump<BR>
>again (without using those aux tanks). So you are back to 12.2 Gh, you<BR>
>jump again going to 23.4, and there is still room to jump even one more<BR>
>time and slow down to boot. Granted if you get into some serious in-system<BR>
>movement or some combat you will probably burn some fuel, but let's say<BR>
>you aren't doing those things.<BR>
><BR>
>So with a TL-12 Sub Merchant, I can go 3 parsecs in 3 weeks, without a<BR>
>pitstop! Is this right or have I miscalculated horribly somewhere? This<BR>
>may seem a silly question, but it has bugged me for years! You couldn't<BR>
>get away with that in CT.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Ray<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hi Ray,<BR>
<BR>
Like you I've had TNE for years but hardly ever been able to play it for<BR>
more than a few sessions :(<BR>
<BR>
I agree with your working out, but bear in mind that  TNE heplars use far<BR>
more fuel than any previous version of traveller require for manoeuvre (ie<BR>
they use fuel <g>). Yes this fuel *can* be used for jump, but beware ending<BR>
up emerging from jumpspace with only enough fuel to kill your velocity and<BR>
make orbit only to find a Vampire Fleet in the vicinity....<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:31:51 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: Where did the planet texturemaps go?<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't there a page linked to Jesse DeGraff's site which contained a bunch<BR>
of texturemaps for planets?<BR>
<BR>
I ask because I would like to compose some suitable planets for my starship<BR>
miniatures to be orbiting. Right now they are suspended above empty white<BR>
space.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Glenn Myers [mailto:glenn.myers@ansys.com]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:04 AM<BR>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: Traveller miniatures and others<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I was going to hold off sending this to the list until it was <BR>
> completed.<BR>
> However, I don't think I'll be able to work on the web page <BR>
> for a few days. <BR>
> Check out my new improved miniature pages...<BR>
> <BR>
    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:54:31 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Semi-OT: Need you to peek...<BR>
<BR>
I need as many people to look at Freelance Traveller - just the<BR>
front page, at http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller (after the<BR>
redirect),<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm, or<BR>
http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz/ and tell me what color you see the<BR>
page background as - and what color your browser defaults to<BR>
based on your personal system and/or browser settings.  Let me<BR>
know also what browser and version you're using, and on what OS<BR>
(just curious about the platform). Lynx or other text-mode<BR>
browser users, this doesn't apply to you - but visit anyway, as I<BR>
would like to know whether the page layout is usable for you, and<BR>
what version of which browser you're using.<BR>
<BR>
Please send your results to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com, with<BR>
"[FT BUG]" and "Browser test" in the subject line.  Someone on a<BR>
different list may have found a problem, but couldn't reproduce<BR>
it, so I want to see if anyone else finds it.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:52:37 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Where did the planet texturemaps go?<BR>
<BR>
Hi Glenn,<BR>
The planet texture examples are at:<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/wbd_planets.htm<BR>
<BR>
Nebula examples are at:<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/nebulas/wbd_nebulas.htm<BR>
<BR>
Non-commercial use, etc etc is ok.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Myers<BR>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 12:32 PM<BR>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: Where did the planet texturemaps go?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Wasn't there a page linked to Jesse DeGraff's site which contained a bunch<BR>
> of texturemaps for planets?<BR>
><BR>
> I ask because I would like to compose some suitable planets for<BR>
> my starship<BR>
> miniatures to be orbiting. Right now they are suspended above empty white<BR>
> space.<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks,<BR>
><BR>
> Glenn<BR>
><BR>
> Glenn E. Myers<BR>
> Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Glenn Myers [mailto:glenn.myers@ansys.com]<BR>
> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 10:04 AM<BR>
> > To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> > Subject: Traveller miniatures and others<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I was going to hold off sending this to the list until it was<BR>
> > completed.<BR>
> > However, I don't think I'll be able to work on the web page<BR>
> > for a few days.<BR>
> > Check out my new improved miniature pages...<BR>
> ><BR>
>     http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:20:53 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1950<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:20:06 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Which is one rreason why the plans for many plants originally included<BR>
>enough room to build new reactors next to the old ones. The cooling<BR>
>towers wouldn't care, and you save on the land.<BR>
<BR>
You still waste the space occupied by the containment building<BR>
for the forseable future.<BR>
<BR>
>But wind and solar aren't reliable enough, nor are they "concentrated"<BR>
>enough. A 1 gigawatt solar or wind plant covers truly amazing amounts<BR>
>of territory.<BR>
<BR>
True wind and solar do not always generate at peak efficiency. And they<BR>
do take up lots of square killometerage but we have lots of rooftops<BR>
that could provide platforms for both types of generation. Likewise<BR>
the power savings that could be had from a rational use of passive<BR>
solar in building construction are an almost completely untapped<BR>
resource.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Even the waste disposal problems are as bad as many think.<BR>
<BR>
How bad do most people think waste disposal problems are?<BR>
A lot of people have problems with plain old non-toxic waste<BR>
garbage dumps in their neighborhood let alone toxic or nuclear<BR>
dumps.<BR>
<BR>
>> Has somebody actually managed to build one of those?  My understanding<BR>
>> is theoretically posible but not practically do-able.<BR>
><BR>
>They had a full up system that differed from what would be flown only<BR>
>in the way the pieces were laid out *running* at full thrust at the<BR>
>Idaho reactor tests site back in the mid 60s.<BR>
><BR>
>It's *quite* doable to build units that get something like double the<BR>
>Isp of the shuttle main engines. It's just that they *weigh* a lot more<BR>
>than shuttle engines. So they aren't useful for getting from ground to<BR>
>orbit. But they'd be great for interplanetary missions, especially<BR>
>manned ones.<BR>
<BR>
Well if they weigh a whole lot more in ratio to their thrust they<BR>
probably aren't practical for any but the largest craft. (I'd have to<BR>
have comparative fuel use numbers and mass and so forth<BR>
for a more insightfull pro/con comparison)<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>But there are a *lot* of space related things we've been *capable* of<BR>
>doing since the mid 60s, but that have been moldering away forgotten<BR>
>ever since the space cutbacks.<BR>
<BR>
I cannot argue with that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Well, actually, the minimum size for a reactor is more like a couple of<BR>
>liters! Critical mass of plutonium in aqueous solution is a liter or so<BR>
>of solution. With sufficient ingenuity making that into a combo<BR>
>boiler/heat exchanger would be fairly easy. Drain the water from the<BR>
>heat exchange tubing and the reaction *has* to stop.<BR>
><BR>
>It'd be low power. But not *that* low. I'd guess somewhere between a<BR>
>lawnmower engine and a car engine.<BR>
<BR>
1 liter for the reaction mass I'll accept but what's the additional figure<BR>
for containment, the turbine (or what have you), the water for cooling<BR>
(most nuclear plants are smack dab on lakes to provide a large<BR>
amount of water for the cooling towers). And assume for a moment<BR>
that the cooling system fails and the water drain becomes pluged<BR>
somehow. The core blows (Steam explosion not nuclear) spewing<BR>
PU (as I understand a very nasty chemical in addition to it's radio-<BR>
activity.) around. I'm not sure you'd want a plant of that type<BR>
on a manned craft. And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn<BR>
mower.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Just a few more things to work out before I'd call this a practical<BR>
power plant.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:25:35 EST<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death already  s...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/21/00 3:19:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
cdixon@airfoiltech.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm working slowly on my first contact years and I've hit a conundrum.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  When the Terrans and the Vilani first mixed it up the Terrans were TL 9<BR>
>  and the Vilani were tl 11.  Using High guard that limits the Terrans<BR>
>  ship size to 1K tons or less and the Vilani to 50K tons or less.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Terra is only 7 jumps from Gasshida (at J2) the Vilani Sector Capitol.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Why didn't the Terrans get the crap kicked out of them?  They managed to<BR>
>  hold off the ZS for 8 years with a relatively low tech (comparatively)<BR>
>  and low tonnage fleet and somehow won concessions at the end.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  How have other GM's out there dealt with this issue.<BR>
<BR>
I tried to address this in the draft Solomani Rim book for GT.<BR>
<BR>
The thing to remember is that the Vilani didn't bring anything close to<BR>
their whole resource base to bear, especially during the first couple of<BR>
wars.  During the first couple of wars, what you had was the entire<BR>
Terran fleet going up against what was basically a single subsector's<BR>
anti-piracy patrol squadron.  The Vilani hardly even noticed that the<BR>
war was going on.  If the Terrans won "concessions" it wasn't because<BR>
they did serious harm.  It was more likely to be because the local<BR>
Vilani governor had other things to attend to and was willing to throw<BR>
a few crumbs to end the annoyance for a while.<BR>
<BR>
All of this changed after the second or third war, of course, when the<BR>
Terrans started actually being a threat to Vilani interests.  Only then<BR>
would you have seen Vilani main fleet elements taking part.<BR>
<BR>
I know that the _Imperium_ game listed Gashidda as the provincial<BR>
capital, but that doesn't make sense for several reasons.  The "province"<BR>
was what would become the Solomani Rim sector.  Why have the sector<BR>
capital on the very frontier, on the far side of the Vegan district?  I<BR>
suggest that the actual sector capital was some distance coreward,<BR>
probably at Shulgiasu.  Gashidda might have been a *subsector* capital,<BR>
and not a very important one at that.<BR>
<BR>
Meanwhile, CT Supplement 10 lists *Dingir* as the Vilani sector capital,<BR>
which contradicts _Imperium_ and has almost the same problems as<BR>
Gashidda.  My take on this is that Dingir became the sector capital<BR>
*after* the first couple of Interstellar Wars.  At some point the Vilani<BR>
governor would have realized that the Terrans were a real threat and <BR>
decide that he needed to be close to the action.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:25:36 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:18:10 +0100, Ingo Heinscher<BR>
<Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 20:01 19.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
><BR>
>Most non-planetry or dangerous waste, I'd say, is either dropped into a<BR>
>star (possibly) on a predefined orbit), dumped on a small uninhabited and<BR>
>lifeless moon in system (for later recycling when technology makes this<BR>
>possible) , or dropped somewhere in deep space, one jump away from any<BR>
>system. (Might lead to "waste planetoids" in deep space when the amsses<BR>
>becoe large enough- adventure idea?)<BR>
><BR>
For some reason this reminds me of a TV commercial from ~15 years<BR>
ago...<BR>
<BR>
Video of man attempting to ski down brown mountain.<BR>
<booming announcer voice><BR>
BANDINI MOUNTAIN! Man dares to go where only cows have gone before.<BR>
</booming announcer voice><BR>
<sweet female announcer voice><BR>
Bandini is the word for... fertilizer.<BR>
</sweet female announcer voice><BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: That "waste planetoid" becomes colonized. It is, of course,<BR>
named "Bandini."<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:16:24 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re TNE<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>So with a TL-12 Sub Merchant, I can go 3 parsecs in 3 weeks, without a<BR>
>pitstop! Is this right or have I miscalculated horribly somewhere? This<BR>
>may seem a silly question, but it has bugged me for years! You couldn't<BR>
>get away with that in CT.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Ray<BR>
><BR>
No, Ray, you haven't miscalculated, at least not by much. Most TNE vessels<BR>
can get an extra parsec or two from their maneuver fuel. Add to that the<BR>
bit about annual fuel rates for fusion plants, and very quickly it gets<BR>
abusive to the CT mentality.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:41:38 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Who owns what? Part I - OT (long w/legal cites)<BR>
<BR>
One of the things that I really like about the TML is that it<BR>
offers a place for everyone to express an opinion on a wide<BR>
variety of topics.  However, when it comes to legal questions<BR>
in America, there are opinions that are better* than others.<BR>
The opinion of a lawyer can save you from a world of trouble.<BR>
Even if the opinion is wrong, you can use it before a court to<BR>
claim that you were doing your best based upon the<BR>
information you had available.  Even if it doesn't get you off<BR>
the hook, it will often get you a easier judgment.  Better*<BR>
than lawyers opinions are those of judges, starting from the<BR>
municipal/county level and going up to the Supreme Court of<BR>
your state.  There is a parallel court system at the federal<BR>
level and each is a bit more substantial up to the Supreme<BR>
Court of the United States (where as the old saying goes, the<BR>
buck stops).<BR>
<BR>
  * Better here means carrying more weight in court, not a<BR>
    matter of judgment of the people expressing the opinions.<BR>
<BR>
Even though I have labeled this post OT, almost anything that<BR>
can cause people to come into conflict can be a good topic<BR>
for launching Traveller adventures.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:<BR>
>First a disclaimer. I'm working from my knowledge of NZ and UK<BR>
>laws. Sine the US is descended from the same source I assume it<BR>
>is similar. This may seem long and OT, but bear with me I do tie it<BR>
>all to Traveller in the end.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew quotes Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>, who wrote:<BR>
>> The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
>> holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
>> of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
>> money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> continues:<BR>
>In actual truth you technically own all land (even private land).<BR>
>When the Normans conquered England, the ownership of all land<BR>
>passed to the Crown who then traded the right to use the land (its<BR>
>"Title") in return for favours and considerations. This remains true<BR>
>even today. Now I'm assuming that when the US got rid of the<BR>
>Crown, the actually ownership of land passed to "The People".<BR>
<BR>
In fact, when the King signed the documents releasing the<BR>
colonies that would become the united States of America,<BR>
he signed all his Sovereign Powers over to "The People."<BR>
<BR>
>Now, the government holds the Trust for "The People" and therefore<BR>
>holds the title to any land for which no individual holds the title.<BR>
>Therefore, while you may (as part of "The People") own all public<BR>
>land (and private too actually), you don't hold the title to it.<BR>
>Therefore, whoever holds the title to that land (the government, in<BR>
>the case of public land) may impose on you regulations regarding<BR>
>its use or your access to it.<BR>
<BR>
Not if those regulations diminish any right of "The People"<BR>
guaranteed by the Constitution.  See legal cites below.<BR>
<BR>
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> replied:<BR>
>'Ownership' is a term laden with philosophical overtones.<BR>
>The fundamental root, though, is the ability to exclude<BR>
>others from a given territory or possession of a given object.<BR>
>That is the foundation of both 'ownership' and 'sovereignty',<BR>
>which IMHO are closely related.<BR>
<BR>
It is refreshing to know that at least one lawyer understands<BR>
this relationship.  The legal citations listed below show that<BR>
the judges and justices that make the common law in<BR>
America also understand this relationship and uphold it on<BR>
behalf of "The People."<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I would guess that most lawyers understand these<BR>
principles.<BR>
<BR>
"The revolution, or rather the Declaration of Independence,<BR>
found the people already united for general purposes, and at<BR>
the same time, providing for more domestic concerns, by<BR>
state conventions, and other temporary arrangements. From<BR>
the crown of Great Britain, the sovereignty of their country<BR>
passed to the people of it: and it was then not an uncommon<BR>
opinion, that the unappropriated lands, which belonged to<BR>
that crown, passed, not to the people of the colony or states<BR>
within those limits they were situated, but to the whole<BR>
people... 'We the people of the United States, do ordain and<BR>
establish this constitution.' Here we see the people acting as<BR>
sovereigns of the whole country: and in the language of<BR>
sovereignty, establishing a constitution by which it was their<BR>
will, that the state governments, should be bound, and to<BR>
which constitutions should be made to conform... It will be<BR>
sufficient to observe briefly, that the sovereignties in Europe<BR>
and particularly in England, exist on feudal principles. That<BR>
system considers the prince as the sovereign, and the<BR>
people his subjects; it regards his person as the object of<BR>
allegiance, and excludes the idea of his being on an equal<BR>
footing with a subject, either in a court of justice or<BR>
elsewhere. That system contemplates him as being the<BR>
fountain of honor and authority; and from his grace and grant,<BR>
derives all franchises, immunities and privileges; it is easy to<BR>
perceive, that such a sovereign could not be amendable to a<BR>
court of justice, or subjected to judicial control and actual<BR>
constraint... The same feudal ideas run through all their<BR>
jurisprudence, and constantly remind us of the distinction<BR>
between the prince and the subject. "No such ideas obtain<BR>
here; at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the<BR>
people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but<BR>
they are sovereigns without subjects... and have none to<BR>
govern but themselves; the citizens of America are equal as<BR>
fellow-citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty. From<BR>
the differences existing between feudal sovereignties and<BR>
governments founded on compacts, it necessarily follows<BR>
that their respective prerogatives must differ, Sovereignty is<BR>
the right to govern; a nation or state sovereign is the person<BR>
or persons in whom that resides. In Europe, the sovereignty<BR>
is generally ascribed to the prince; here it rests with the<BR>
people; there the sovereign actually administers the<BR>
government; here never in a single instance; our governors<BR>
are the agents of the people; and at most stand in the same<BR>
relation to their sovereign, in which the regents of Europe<BR>
stand to their sovereigns. Their princes have personal<BR>
powers, dignities and preeminence, our rulers have none but<BR>
official; nor do they partake in the sovereignty otherwise, or<BR>
in any other capacity, than as private citizens."<BR>
- --Chisholm v. Georgia, 2 Dall 419, 454, 1 L Ed 440 (1793).<BR>
<BR>
"The words 'sovereign people' are those who form the<BR>
sovereign, and who hold the power and conduct the<BR>
government through their representatives. [In America,]<BR>
Every citizen is one of these people and a constituent<BR>
member of this sovereignty."<BR>
- --Scott v. Sandford, Mo., 60 US 393, 404, 19 How. 393, 404,<BR>
15 L.Ed. 691.<BR>
<BR>
"Sovereignty itself is, of course, not subject to the law, for it<BR>
is the author and source of law, but in our system, while<BR>
sovereign powers are delegated to the agencies of<BR>
government, sovereignty itself remains with the people, by<BR>
whom and for whom all government exists and acts...For, the<BR>
very idea that one man may be compelled to hold his life, or<BR>
the means of living, or any material right essential to the<BR>
enjoyment of life, at the mere will of another, seems to be<BR>
intolerable in any country where freedom prevails, as being<BR>
the essence of slavery itself."<BR>
- --Yick Wo v. Hopkins, Sheriff, 118 U.S. 356.<BR>
<BR>
" 'Sovereignty' in government to that public authority which<BR>
directs or orders what is to be done by each member<BR>
associated is relation to the end of the association. It is the<BR>
supreme power by which any citizen is governed and is the<BR>
person or body of persons in the state to whom there is<BR>
politically no superior. The necessary existence of the state<BR>
and that right and power which necessarily follow is<BR>
'sovereignty'. By 'sovereignty' in its largest sense is meant<BR>
supreme, absolute, uncontrollable power, the absolute right<BR>
to govern. The word which by itself comes nearest to being<BR>
the definition of 'sovereignty' is will or volition as applied to<BR>
political affairs."<BR>
- --City of Bisbee v. Cochise County, 28 P.2d. 982, 986, 52<BR>
Ariz. 1.<BR>
<BR>
" 'Sovereignty' is a term used to express a supreme political<BR>
authority of an independent state or nation. Whatever rights<BR>
are essential to the existence of this authority are rights of<BR>
sovereignty. The rights to declare war, to make treaties of<BR>
peace, to levy taxes, and to take property for public uses,<BR>
termed the 'right of eminent domain,' are all rights of<BR>
sovereignty. In this country this authority is vested in the<BR>
people, and is exercised through the joint action of the<BR>
federal and state governments. To the federal government is<BR>
delegated the exercise of certain rights or powers of<BR>
sovereignty, and with respect to sovereignty, 'rights' and<BR>
'powers' are synonymous terms; and the exercise of all other<BR>
rights of sovereignty, except as expressly prohibited, is<BR>
reserved to the people of the respective states, or vested by<BR>
them into their local government. When we say, therefore,<BR>
that a state of the Union is sovereign, we only mean that she<BR>
possesses supreme political authority, except as to those<BR>
matters over which such authority is delegated to the federal<BR>
government or prohibited to the states."<BR>
- --Moore v. Smaw, 17 Cal. 199, 218, 79 Am. Dec. 123.<BR>
<BR>
"The 'sovereign powers' of a government include all the<BR>
powers necessary to accomplish its legitimate ends and<BR>
purposes. Such powers must exist in all practical<BR>
governments. They are the incidents of sovereignty, of which<BR>
a state cannot divest itself."<BR>
- --Boggs v. Merced Min. Co., 14 Cal. 279, 309.<BR>
<BR>
"In all governments of constitutional limitations 'sovereign<BR>
power' manifests itself in but three ways. By exercising the<BR>
right of taxation; by the right of eminent domain; and through<BR>
its police power."<BR>
- --United States v. Douglas-Willan Sartoris Co., 22 P. 92,<BR>
96. 3 Wyo. 287.<BR>
<BR>
"The term 'sovereign power' of a state is often used without<BR>
any very definite idea of its meaning, and it is often<BR>
misapplied. Prior to the formation of the federal Constitution,<BR>
the states were sovereign in the absolute sense of the term.<BR>
They had established a certain agency under the Articles of<BR>
Confederation, but this agency had little or no power beyond<BR>
that of recommending to the states the adoption of certain<BR>
measures. It could not be properly denominated a<BR>
government, as it did not possess the power of carrying its<BR>
acts into effect. The people of the states, by the adoption of<BR>
the federal Constitution, imposed certain limitations in the<BR>
exercise of their powers which appertain to sovereignty. But<BR>
the states are still sovereign. The sovereignty of a state does<BR>
not reside in the persons who fill the different departments of<BR>
its government, but in the people, from whom the<BR>
government emanated; and they may change it at their<BR>
discretion. Sovereignty, then, in this country, abides with the<BR>
constituency, and not with the agent; and this remark is true,<BR>
both in reference to the federal and state governments."<BR>
- --Spooner v. McConnell, 22 Fed. Cas. 939, 943.<BR>
<BR>
"Sovereignty means supremacy in respect of power,<BR>
domination, or rank; supreme dominion, authority or rule."<BR>
- --Brandes v. Mitteriling, 196 P.2d 464, 467, 657 Ariz 349.<BR>
<BR>
" 'Government' is not 'sovereignty.' 'Government' is the<BR>
machinery or expedient for expressing the will of the<BR>
sovereign power."<BR>
- --City of Bisbee v. Cochise County, 78 P.2d 982, 986, 52<BR>
Ariz. 1.<BR>
<BR>
"The 'sovereignty' of the United States consists of the<BR>
powers existing in the people as a whole and the persons to<BR>
whom they have delegated it, and not as a separate<BR>
personal entity, and as such it does not possess the<BR>
personal privileges of the sovereign of England; and the<BR>
government, being restrained by a written Constitution,<BR>
cannot take property without compensation, as can the<BR>
English government by act of king, lords, and Parliament."<BR>
- --Filbin Corporation v. United States, D.C.S.C., 266 F. 911,<BR>
914.<BR>
<BR>
" 'Sovereignty' is the right to govern. In Europe the<BR>
sovereignty is generally ascribed to the prince; here it rests<BR>
with the people. There the sovereign actually administers the<BR>
government; here, never in a single instance. Our governors<BR>
are the agents of the people, and at most stand in the same<BR>
relation to their sovereign in which regents in Europe stand<BR>
to their sovereign. Their princes have personal powers,<BR>
dignities, and pre-eminences. Our rulers have none but<BR>
official, nor do they partake in the sovereignty otherwise, or<BR>
in any other capacity than as private citizens."<BR>
- --Chisholm v. Georgia, Ga., 2. U.S. (2 Dall.) 419, 471, 1 L.<BR>
Ed. 440.<BR>
<BR>
"In the United States, sovereignty resides in the people who<BR>
act through the organs established by the Constitution. The<BR>
Congress as the instrumentality of sovereignty is endowed<BR>
with certain powers to be exerted on behalf of the people in<BR>
the manner and with the effect the Constitution ordains. The<BR>
Congress cannot invoke the sovereign power of the people<BR>
to override their will as thus declared."<BR>
- --Perry v U.S., 294 U.S. 330,353 (1935).<BR>
<BR>
"States and state officials acting officially are held not to be<BR>
'persons' subject to liability under 42 USCS section 1983."<BR>
- --Wills v. Michigan Dept. of State Police, 105 L.Ed. 2nd 45<BR>
(1989).<BR>
<BR>
"Statutes employing the word 'person' are ordinarily<BR>
construed to exclude the sovereign." 56 L.Ed. 2d. 895.<BR>
<BR>
"A foreign sovereign power must in courts of United States<BR>
be assumed to be acting lawfully, the meaning of<BR>
'sovereignty' being that decree of the sovereign makes law."<BR>
- --Eastern States Petroleum Co. v. Asiatic Petroleum<BR>
Corporation, D.C.N.Y., 28 F.Supp. 279, 281.<BR>
<BR>
"The very meaning of 'sovereignty' is that the decree of the<BR>
sovereign makes law."<BR>
- --American Banana Co. v. United Fruit Co., 29 S.Ct. 511,<BR>
513, 213 U.S. 347, 53 L.Ed. 826, 19 Ann.Cas. 1047.<BR>
<BR>
" 'Sovereignty' means that the decree of sovereign makes<BR>
law, and foreign courts cannot condemn influences<BR>
persuading sovereign to make the decree."<BR>
- --Moscow Fire Ins. Co. of Moscow, Russia v. Bank of New<BR>
York & Trust Co., 294 N.Y.S. 648, 662, 161 Misc. 903.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Related cites concerning Inalienable Rights v. States' rights<BR>
are being sent as Part II.<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
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End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1951<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 21 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1952<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Who owns what? Part 2 - OT (long w/legal cites)<BR>
Re: Re TNE<BR>
Terran Superiority<BR>
Re: WA, OR, CA country - straying significantly OT<BR>
fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re : Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re: TNE query<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1951<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:42:53 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Who owns what? Part 2 - OT (long w/legal cites)<BR>
<BR>
Continued from Part I...<BR>
<BR>
"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one<BR>
because of his exercise of Constitutional rights."<BR>
- --Sherar v. Cullen 481 F. 946<BR>
<BR>
"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there<BR>
can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate<BR>
them."<BR>
U.S. Supreme Court in Miranda v. Arizona 380 U.S. 436<BR>
(1966)<BR>
<BR>
"Constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because<BR>
the majority of the people choose that they be."<BR>
- --Westbrook v. Mihaly 2 C3d 756<BR>
<BR>
"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and<BR>
void."<BR>
- --Marbury v. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)<BR>
<BR>
"The Bill of Rights was provided as a barrier, to protect the<BR>
individual against arbitrary exactions of majorities,<BR>
executives, legislatures, courts, sheriffs, and prosecutors,<BR>
and it is the primary distinction between democratic and<BR>
totalitarian processes."<BR>
- --STANDLER. Supreme Court of Florida en Banc, 36 So 2d<BR>
443, 445 (1948)<BR>
<BR>
"Government may not prohibit or control the conduct of a<BR>
person for reasons that infringe upon constitutionally<BR>
guaranteed freedoms."<BR>
- --Smith v. U.S. 502 F2d 512 CA Tex (1974)<BR>
<BR>
"Where rights secured by the constitution are involved, there<BR>
can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate<BR>
them."<BR>
- --Miranda v. Arizona (U.S. Supreme Court) 380 US 436<BR>
(1966)<BR>
<BR>
"We find it intolerable that one constitutional right should<BR>
have to be surrendered in order to assert another."<BR>
- --Simmons v. US, 390 US 389 (1968)<BR>
<BR>
"The claim and exercise of a Constitutional right cannot be<BR>
converted to a crime."<BR>
- --Miller v. US, 230 F 486 at 489<BR>
<BR>
"When any court violates the clean and unambiguous<BR>
language of the constitution, a fraud is perpetrated and no<BR>
one is bound to obey it."<BR>
- --State v. Sutton 63 Minn 167, 65 NW 262, 30 LRA 630<BR>
<BR>
"The state cannot diminish rights of the people."<BR>
- --Hurtado v. California 110 US 516.<BR>
<BR>
"A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a<BR>
right granted by the Federal Constitution."<BR>
- --Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105 (1943)<BR>
<BR>
"Justice Douglas maintained that the privileges and<BR>
immunities clause was the proper basis for the holding and<BR>
further insisted that freedom of movement was a right of<BR>
national citizenship binding upon the states and recognized<BR>
as such by Crandall v. Nevada (73 US 35) before the 14th<BR>
Amendment was ratified."<BR>
- --Edwards v. California 314 US 160<BR>
<BR>
"Moreover, a distinction must be observed between a<BR>
regulation of an activity which may be engaged in as a<BR>
matter of right and one carried on by government<BR>
sufferance or permission. In the latter case the power to<BR>
exclude altogether generally includes the lesser power to<BR>
condition and may justify a degree of regulation not<BR>
admissible in the former."<BR>
- --Packard v. Banton 264 US 140<BR>
<BR>
"Failure to obey the command of a police officer constitutes<BR>
a traditional form of breach of the peace. Obviously,<BR>
however, one cannot be punished for failing to obey the<BR>
command of an officer if the command itself is violative of<BR>
the constitution."<BR>
- --Wright v. Georgia 373 US 284<BR>
<BR>
"Constitutional rights may not be infringed simply because<BR>
the majority of the people choose that they be."<BR>
- --Westbrook v. Mihaly 2 C3d 756<BR>
<BR>
"Constitutions are not primarily designed to protect<BR>
majorities, who are usually able to protect themselves, but<BR>
rather to preserve and protect the rights of individuals and<BR>
minorities against arbitrary actions of those in authority."<BR>
- --Houston County v. Martin, 232 A 1 511.<BR>
<BR>
"...fundamental rights do not hang by the tenuous thread of a<BR>
layman's knowledge of the niceties of the law. It is sufficient<BR>
if it appears that he is attempting to assert his constitutional<BR>
privilege."<BR>
- --US v St. Pierre, 128 F 2d at 980.<BR>
<BR>
"...good faith is not enough to constitute probable cause.<BR>
That faith must be grounded on facts within knowledge of<BR>
the... agent, which in the judgment of the court would make<BR>
his faith reasonable."<BR>
- --Director General v Kastenbaum, 263 U.S. 25.<BR>
<BR>
"Constitutional rights may not be denied simply because of<BR>
hostility to their assertion and exercise. Vindication of<BR>
conceded constitutional rights cannot be made dependent<BR>
upon any theory that it is less expensive to deny them than to<BR>
afford them."<BR>
- --Watson v Memphis, 375 U.S. 526.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
While discussing the necessity of drivers licenses, some<BR>
claimed that the government has a duty to protect us from<BR>
harm.  While this may be the case in some countries, it is not<BR>
the case in America.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
In 1856 the Supreme Court declared that local law<BR>
enforcement had no duty to protect a particular person, but<BR>
only a general duty to enforce the laws. [South v. Maryland,<BR>
59 U.S. (HOW) 396,15 L.Ed., 433 (1856)].<BR>
<BR>
In 1982, the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit, held:<BR>
"...there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state<BR>
against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is<BR>
monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against<BR>
such predators but it does not violate the due process clause<BR>
of the Fourteenth Amendment or, we suppose, any other<BR>
provision of the Constitution. The Constitution is a charter of<BR>
negative liberties: it tells the state to let people alone; it does<BR>
not require the federal government or the state to provide<BR>
services, even so elementary a service as maintaining law<BR>
and order." [Bowers v. DeVito, U.S. Court of Appeals,<BR>
Seventh Circuit, 686F.2d 616 (1982) See also Reiff v. City<BR>
of Philadelphia, 477F.Supp.1262 (E.D.Pa. 1979)].<BR>
<BR>
There are a few, very narrow exceptions. In 1983, the District<BR>
of Columbia Court of Appeals remarked that:<BR>
"In a civilized society, every citizen at least tacitly relies upon<BR>
the constable for protection from crime. Hence, more than<BR>
general reliance is needed to require the police to act on<BR>
behalf of a particular individual. ...Liability is established,<BR>
therefore, if the police have specifically undertaken to protect<BR>
a particular individual and the individual has specifically<BR>
relied upon the undertaking. ...Absent a special relationship,<BR>
therefore, the police may not be held liable for failure to<BR>
protect a particular individual from harm caused by criminal<BR>
conduct. A special relationship exists if the police employ an<BR>
individual in aid of law enforcement, but does not exist<BR>
merely because an individual requests, or a police officer<BR>
promises to provide protection." [Morgan v. District of<BR>
Columbia, 468 A2d 1306 (D.C. App. 1983)].<BR>
<BR>
As a result, government - specifically, the police - has no<BR>
legal duty to help any given person, even one whose life is in<BR>
imminent peril.<BR>
<BR>
In a New York case, a Judge Keating dissented, bitterly<BR>
noting that Linda Riss was victimized not only because she<BR>
had relied on the police to protect her, but because she<BR>
obeyed New York laws that forbade her to own a weapon.<BR>
Judge Keating wrote:<BR>
"What makes the city's position particularly difficult to<BR>
understand is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law,<BR>
Linda did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a<BR>
rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on<BR>
the City of New York, which now denies all responsibility to<BR>
her." [Riss v. City of New York, 293 N.Y. 2d 897 (1968)].<BR>
<BR>
The California Court of Appeals held that any claim against<BR>
the police department "is barred by the provisions of the<BR>
California Tort Claims Act, particularly Section 845, which<BR>
states: `Neither a public entity nor a public employee is liable<BR>
for failure to establish a police department or otherwise<BR>
provide police protection or, if police protection service is<BR>
provided, for failure to provide sufficient police protection."<BR>
[Hartzler v. City of San Jose, App., 120 Cal.Rptr 5 (1975)].<BR>
<BR>
The Superior Court of the District of Columbia held that:<BR>
"...the fundamental principle [is] that a government and its<BR>
agents are under no general duty to provide public services,<BR>
such as police protection, to any particular individual<BR>
citizen... The duty to provide public services is owed to the<BR>
public at large, and, absent a special relationship between<BR>
the police and an individual, no special legal duty exists."<BR>
<BR>
In an accompanying memorandum, the Court explained that<BR>
the term "special relationship" did not mean an oral promise<BR>
to respond to a call for help. Rather, it involved the provision<BR>
of help to the police force. [Warren v. District of Columbia,<BR>
D.C. App., 444 A.2d 1 (1981)].<BR>
<BR>
"...the defendant law enforcement agencies and officers did<BR>
not owe them (the children - ed.) any legal duty of care, the<BR>
breach of which caused their injury and death...Our law is<BR>
that in the absence of a special relationship, such as exists<BR>
when a victim is in custody or the police have promised to<BR>
protect a particular person, law enforcement agencies and<BR>
personnel have no duty to protect individuals from the<BR>
criminal acts of others; instead their duty is to preserve the<BR>
peace and arrest law breakers for the protection of the<BR>
general public. In this instance, a special relationship of the<BR>
type stated did not exist....Plaintiff's argument that the<BR>
children's presence required defendants to delay (the) arrest<BR>
until the children were elsewhere is incompatible with the<BR>
duty that the law has long placed on law enforcement<BR>
personnel to make the safety of the public their first concern;<BR>
for permitting dangerous criminals to go unapprehended lest<BR>
particular individuals be injured or killed would inevitably and<BR>
necessarily endanger the public at large, a policy that the law<BR>
cannot tolerate, much less foster." [Lynch v. N.C. Dept. of<BR>
Justice, 376 S.E. 2nd 247 (N.C. App. 1989)].<BR>
<BR>
"....a distinction must be drawn between a public duty owed<BR>
by the officials to the citizenry at large and a special duty<BR>
owned to a specific identifiable person or class of persons...<BR>
Only a violation of the latter duty will give rise to civil liability<BR>
of the official....to hold a public official civilly liable for<BR>
violating a duty owed to the public at large would subject the<BR>
official to potential liability for every action he undertook and<BR>
would not be in society's best interest.".....no special<BR>
relationship existed that would create a common law duty on<BR>
the defendants to protect the decedent (Marshall - ed.) from<BR>
Mundy's criminal acts. Similarly, without a special<BR>
relationship between the defendants and the decedent, no<BR>
constitutional duty can arise under the Due Process Clause<BR>
as codified by 42 U.S.C. Sec. 1983. Therefore, plaintiff's<BR>
[Mrs. Marshall's] due process claim also must fall." [Marshall<BR>
v. Winston, 389 S.E.2nd 902 (Va. 1990)].<BR>
<BR>
On a related matter, courts have also held that not only are<BR>
unconstitutional laws null and void from the moment they<BR>
supposedly begin, but also that you have every right to<BR>
defend yourself against unlawful force. The fact that the<BR>
government, through its agents, may be your attacker is<BR>
immaterial:<BR>
<BR>
"Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an<BR>
arresting officer's life if necessary." [Plummer v. State, 136<BR>
Ind. 308 (1893)]<BR>
<BR>
This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United<BR>
States when the court stated:<BR>
<BR>
"...where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder<BR>
which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is<BR>
resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the<BR>
transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest,<BR>
from what it does if the officer had no right. What might be<BR>
murder in the first case might be nothing more than<BR>
manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no<BR>
offense had been committed." [John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177<BR>
U.S. 529, (1900)]<BR>
<BR>
"An arrest made with a defective warrant; or one issued<BR>
without affidavit; or one that fails to allege a crime is without<BR>
jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest<BR>
and break away. If the arresting officer is killed by one who is<BR>
so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary<BR>
manslaughter." [Housh v. People, 75 Ill. 491; State v. Leach,<BR>
7 Conn. 452; State v. Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v.<BR>
Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.]<BR>
<BR>
"These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to<BR>
make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the<BR>
bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and<BR>
violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully<BR>
uses such force and violence." [Jones v. State, 26 Tex.<BR>
App.1; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 175; Skidmore v.<BR>
State, 43 Tex. 93. #903]<BR>
<BR>
"When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he<BR>
has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without<BR>
retreating, repel force by force, and if, in the reasonable<BR>
exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he<BR>
is justifiable." [Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74<BR>
Ind.1.]<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:59:30 +1000<BR>
From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re TNE<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 12:16:24   William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>So with a TL-12 Sub Merchant, I can go 3 parsecs in 3 weeks, without a<BR>
>>pitstop! Is this right or have I miscalculated horribly somewhere? This<BR>
>>may seem a silly question, but it has bugged me for years! You couldn't<BR>
>>get away with that in CT.<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>Ray<BR>
>><BR>
>No, Ray, you haven't miscalculated, at least not by much. Most TNE vessels<BR>
>can get an extra parsec or two from their maneuver fuel. Add to that the<BR>
>bit about annual fuel rates for fusion plants, and very quickly it gets<BR>
<BR>
This is an idea, one that I just thought of while reading the list.<BR>
Assume that Jump Fuel has to be of a higher 'grade' than normal Hydrogen (ie, pure tritium,  for a high yeild reaction mass, or pure Helium 3 if you like.)<BR>
The jump fuel can then be used for reaction mass, but the maneuver fuel can't be put through the jump drive without causing problems (misjump, explosion... other nasty stuff). <BR>
<BR>
Why not load up tanks with just jump fuel, err.... uhmmm..... because jump fuel is not a good reaction mass (hmm.. patently ridiculous...), because it is too expensive (...  hmmm... fuel purifiers..... make any fuel cheap), uhmmmm...... length of time to refine?<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps jump fuel can't be used because in a Heplar drive it produces fusion by-products (radiation), which is not a good thing, so use a lower 'grade' fuel that doesn't fuse in the drive and produces little radiation. <BR>
<BR>
OK, enough thinking out loud and in public... back to work... before the boss catches me!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:15:16 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
I'm working slowly on my first contact years and I've hit a conundrum.<BR>
<BR>
When the Terrans and the Vilani first mixed it up the Terrans were TL 9<BR>
and the Vilani were tl 11.  Using High guard that limits the Terrans<BR>
ship size to 1K tons or less and the Vilani to 50K tons or less.<BR>
<BR>
Terra is only 7 jumps from Gasshida (at J2) the Vilani Sector Capitol.<BR>
<BR>
Why didn't the Terrans get the crap kicked out of them?  They managed to<BR>
hold off the ZS for 8 years with a relatively low tech (comparatively)<BR>
and low tonnage fleet and somehow won concessions at the end.<BR>
<BR>
How have other GM's out there dealt with this issue.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
High Guard may not be the best way to model Terran Federation ships. It is<BR>
designed for 3rd Imperial ships, where Terran ships would have smaller crews,<BR>
shorter maintenace times, and crappy crew facilities.<BR>
<BR>
May take would be the following:<BR>
<BR>
As it became apparent to Terra that it was likely to be going to war, it<BR>
immedietly started crash building and retrofitting any space worthy hull it<BR>
could get its hands on. Massive research pojects were fast tracked, leading to<BR>
the development of the Particle Accellerator, the basics where known since the<BR>
late 20th century, but became feasable with fusion power  These guns where<BR>
forced into the retrofitted hulls if possable.<BR>
<BR>
Many of the ships where SDB, as it allowed more space for offensive weaponry,<BR>
and it also prompted the Terrans to develop what is refered to as the<BR>
BattleRider (The BR during the Interstellar War period generally where more<BR>
cruiser and lower in size, built around the spinal Partical beam, and some<BR>
turrets for protection.<BR>
<BR>
It should be noted that Terran ships where optamised for warfare, not crew<BR>
comfort. Minimal space was allocated to crew facilities, and it was not uncommon<BR>
to not to use grav compensators, to optamise weapon loadout.<BR>
<BR>
The Terrans also used extensive computerisation, more so than the Vilani, and<BR>
3rd Imperium. Bridges, Engineering and weapon systems had extensive computer<BR>
assists, may have used expert combat systems assist in tactical conciderations.<BR>
<BR>
Terran technology was hevily over engineered, but the tradeoff was short<BR>
lifespan of componants. Componants tended to be used heavily , then discarded<BR>
whole and replaced just before failure. This was helped by Heavy use of<BR>
Automated Manufatcering systems ,that allowed easy mass production of<BR>
componants, which could be established in most forward bases and depots.<BR>
<BR>
In a nutshell, the Terrans outproduced the Vilani from the start, was willing to<BR>
compramise on crew comforts, was willing to rething weapon systems and<BR>
<BR>
<<This is the jist of an article I submitted to JTAS a Terran forward base for<BR>
merchant raiding. If rejected, I will possably post it on Downport or<BR>
somewhere>><BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:48:19 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: WA, OR, CA country - straying significantly OT<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>Sorry, but "cracking hydrogen out of the ocean" will *use* more power<BR>
>>>than is produced by burning it.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Not if we use *Traveller* equipment. By the time we can actually organize<BR>
>>this, we will already be at the right TL.<BR>
><BR>
>Leonard is correct.<BR>
><BR>
>If you have working fusion reactors, cracking water to produce hydrogen<BR>
>and oxygen might use less power than you had available and you would then<BR>
>be able to supply the fuel cells to keep your cars running, but burning<BR>
>the hydrogen in gas turbines to make electricity to crack water to make<BR>
>hydrogen is a completely silly idea.<BR>
><BR>
>IIRC, desalination plants use filters to remove the salt, although they<BR>
>still need a reasonable amount of power to run the station and pump the<BR>
>water through the filters.<BR>
<BR>
The intention was to use electricity from the grid (which connects all of<BR>
the United States and Canada) to produce Hydrogen for use in automobiles and<BR>
local steam plants. Yes it uses more power than you get back, but like<BR>
gasoline, hydrogen is portable power that can be ***stored*** and can be<BR>
more efficiently converted to heat energy.<BR>
<BR>
I know of two methods of desalination. One uses distillation and requires a<BR>
heat source to boil off the seawater and then condense the fresh water that<BR>
results. The other method uses reverse osmosis. It is my belief that as the<BR>
world's population increases, and fresh water becomes a scarcer resource<BR>
that getting water from the sea will be the only answer.<BR>
I'm afraid that I do not have enough faith in humanity (as opposed to<BR>
Humaniti) to believe that they will limit their own population or limit<BR>
their use of the environmentally scarce resources.<BR>
<BR>
Complete OT tangent: Today I heard a show on NPR which was talking about the<BR>
latest gas crisis. For those who haven't heard: The price of gas in the U.S.<BR>
is about as high as it's ever been (in present day dollars). This is still<BR>
much less than it is in most of the world. And probably less than it was in<BR>
the '70's in **Real** dollar value. People are complaining, but they are not<BR>
thinking of  giving up their minivans and SUV's for minicars like they did<BR>
in the 70's. Why not? Because, unlike in the 70's when double digit<BR>
inflation and a recession had American's worried, people today feel good<BR>
about the economy. They'll complain about the prices, but most feel they<BR>
don't have to drive a cracker box to be able to afford to drive. Independent<BR>
truckers are another story though. They are getting the same rates as they<BR>
got one or two decades ago and paying much more for gas, financing, etc.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Easy. Cheap power and countragrav make resource shortages strictly<BR>
local. No doubt this is what fuels the very high stability of economic rates<BR>
in the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:49:18 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
> >Well, actually, the minimum size for a reactor is more like a couple of<BR>
> >liters! Critical mass of plutonium in aqueous solution is a liter or so<BR>
> >of solution. With sufficient ingenuity making that into a combo<BR>
> >boiler/heat exchanger would be fairly easy. Drain the water from the<BR>
> >heat exchange tubing and the reaction *has* to stop.<BR>
> >It'd be low power. But not *that* low. I'd guess somewhere between a<BR>
> >lawnmower engine and a car engine.<BR>
>1 liter for the reaction mass I'll accept but what's the additional figure<BR>
>for containment, the turbine (or what have you), the water for cooling<BR>
>(most nuclear plants are smack dab on lakes to provide a large<BR>
>amount of water for the cooling towers). And assume for a moment<BR>
>that the cooling system fails and the water drain becomes pluged<BR>
>somehow. The core blows (Steam explosion not nuclear) spewing<BR>
>PU (as I understand a very nasty chemical in addition to it's radio-<BR>
>activity.) around. I'm not sure you'd want a plant of that type<BR>
>on a manned craft. And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn<BR>
>mower.<BR>
<BR>
Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.  Typical designs for space craft <BR>
using fusion planets are not meant to enter atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
You only have to shield one side as well. The side facing the rest of the <BR>
ship.  The reactor sits out from the rest of the ship.<BR>
<BR>
This is the kind of stuff you run into out in boonies of Traveller <BR>
space.  It's pretty cheap and low tech.<BR>
"Ya, we're Astronauts!  Check out our ship.  It can make the run to the <BR>
Asteroid Belt in just under six months!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:51:53 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> Lots of message deleted<BR>
>>>A regular citizen might be charge a specific fine, or sent to jail<BR>
>>>or be executed. But only a Noble could have title and lands stripped from<BR>
>>>him/her, leaving family destitute and perhaps even under sentence<BR>
>>>themselves. (There's a name for this kind of punishment, where the<BR>
>>>descendents of a criminal are also punished for his crime, but I forget<BR>
what<BR>
>>>it is.)<BR>
><BR>
>"Corruption of Blood". It's specificly mentioned in the US<BR>
>Constitution.<BR>
><BR>
Thank you Leonard. I thought that it was specifically prohibited here in the<BR>
U.S., but I couldn't remember if it was Constitutionally prohibited.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:48:30 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
> I wanna own the first nuclear-powered lawnmower on my block! Where<BR>
>can I get a liter or so of plutonium in an aqueous solution?<BR>
<BR>
Lets file that idea right beside the plans for nuclear long johns for navy<BR>
divers.  You know, the ones designed to keep them warn on cold winter dives.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:15:46 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
DaveShayne wrote :-<BR>
<with regard to nuclear plants> :-<BR>
> You still waste the space occupied by the containment building<BR>
> for the forseable future.<BR>
<BR>
Not really ; the core and the primary heat exchange loop constituents<BR>
need to be recycled. Fusion reactors will have the same problem - the<BR>
structural elements will degrade from neutron bombardment, with time.<BR>
<BR>
> >Even the waste disposal problems are as bad as many think.<BR>
> <BR>
> How bad do most people think waste disposal problems are?<BR>
> A lot of people have problems with plain old non-toxic waste<BR>
> garbage dumps in their neighborhood let alone toxic or nuclear<BR>
> dumps.<BR>
<BR>
The toxic waste produced in the manufacture of solar cells is<BR>
considerable ; per unit mass of product finally produced, solar cell<BR>
manufacture is almost as bad as integrated circuit fabrication (the<BR>
winner and champion in the toxic waste sweepstakes!).<BR>
<BR>
The problem with disposing of nuclear waste is 'NIMBY' waxed large.<BR>
Existing proposed solutions (vitrification into Synroc[TM]) or storage<BR>
in salt domes, etc. would achieve confinement for several milennia.<BR>
<BR>
The bottom line is :- How much risk is a society prepared to take? <BR>
We drive cars and use electrical appliances in our houses routinely -<BR>
they are far more likely to kill you than a reactor accident.<BR>
<BR>
<on nuclear propulsion> :-<BR>
> Well if they weigh a whole lot more in ratio to their thrust they<BR>
> probably aren't practical for any but the largest craft.<BR>
<BR>
NERVA, ROVER, etc. were the best engines that 1960s-70s tech could<BR>
build. We can do better now - a lot of engineering experience has<BR>
accumulated in the interim.<BR>
<BR>
Compact nuclear cores that have been proposed recently - 'jelly roll'<BR>
designs - have nearly ten times the power output of the Space Shuttle<BR>
main engine per unit mass, with twice the specific impulse (~800 vs. 400<BR>
seconds). These were mentioned in a recent 'Scientific American' special<BR>
issue on the future of space exploration.<BR>
<BR>
<on Leonard's miniature reactor> :-<BR>
A radiothermal generator is probably a better idea at this end of the<BR>
power range. With current or very near future technology :-<BR>
<BR>
Plutonium 238 :- 73W/kg, halflife 87 years (US space program, since the<BR>
1960s)<BR>
Curium 244 :- 534W/kg, halflife 13 years (an interesting candidate).<BR>
<BR>
NB : The masses above do not include a heat engine to convert heat into<BR>
usable work.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:20:21 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TNE query<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:07 AM<BR>
Subject: TNE query<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hello all,<BR>
><BR>
>As I stated before, I'm a newbie here, and although I have owned TNE for<BR>
>years (since it first came out), I have never been able to run more than a<BR>
>couple scenarios, and *never* talked to someone else who owned it (a<BR>
>crying shame!). So, I have some questions and the following one seems like<BR>
>a good place to start for me :)<BR>
><BR>
<sniped a bit for space savings><BR>
><BR>
>So with a TL-12 Sub Merchant, I can go 3 parsecs in 3 weeks, without a<BR>
>pitstop! Is this right or have I miscalculated horribly somewhere?<BR>
><BR>
>Ray<BR>
<BR>
Well here we enter a bit on the idea of Traveller hand waving and making<BR>
your own call.<BR>
According to the rules of TNE you can pump you're jump full and use it a<BR>
reaction mass for your M-drive. but the question was never really answered<BR>
in any of the books I owned as to weather the full from the M-drives<BR>
reaction mass can be pumped into other things.<BR>
So from a role-playing point of view I'd day the Engineer did a Scotty. and<BR>
performed some feet that just isn't on the books. or I'd allow it as common.<BR>
Or deallow it all together as a traveller handwave.<BR>
<BR>
One difference in the TNE and CT/MT is that it answered alot of techincal<BR>
questions about the Imeperium weather it is correct or not according to your<BR>
Traveller Universe. Me Personally I like the idea that you came up with<BR>
about the fuel saving and will apply them to my traveller games.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:49:12 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1951<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:17:22 -0500<BR>
>From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
>Subject: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death<BR>
already  sorry)<BR>
><BR>
>Hello TML.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm working slowly on my first contact years and I've hit a conundrum.<BR>
><BR>
>When the Terrans and the Vilani first mixed it up the Terrans were TL 9<BR>
>and the Vilani were tl 11.  Using High guard that limits the Terrans<BR>
>ship size to 1K tons or less and the Vilani to 50K tons or less.<BR>
<BR>
My reading of the background material in Imperium suggests that<BR>
the Terrans didn't contact the Villani untill developement of J2, ie TL 11.<BR>
The Nth interstellar wars continued untill Terra developed J3 and<BR>
finally had an edge. I can't find any other references to the respective<BR>
TL in any of my material (an incomplete collection to be sure) although<BR>
the MT Imperial Encyclopedia suggests (but does not explicitly require)<BR>
the TL scheme you propose. Personally I'd give the Terrans TL 11 at<BR>
least for computers (resulting in ships of same maximum mass if somewhat<BR>
less capable.)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Terra is only 7 jumps from Gasshida (at J2) the Vilani Sector Capitol.<BR>
><BR>
>Why didn't the Terrans get the crap kicked out of them?  They managed to<BR>
>hold off the ZS for 8 years with a relatively low tech (comparatively)<BR>
>and low tonnage fleet and somehow won concessions at the end.<BR>
<BR>
The Villani were dealing with Hostile forces from all directions, not just<BR>
from Terra, as well as an internal cultural stagnation. The Terrans had<BR>
1 distracted opponent and an insuferable belief in manifest destiny.<BR>
Remember the Dictu Napoleon - "The moral is to the physical as<BR>
Three is to one."<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>How have other GM's out there dealt with this issue.<BR>
<BR>
Glossed it over as the information regarding these events in<BR>
the CT/MT millieu are sepperated by several thousand years and<BR>
a galaxy wide dark age. This is the kind of inconsistency that<BR>
I'd use as a hook for a scientist type adventure though.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks in advance<BR>
<BR>
Your welcome.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>(I already asked Rob Eaglestone off list but I'm curious as to how<BR>
>others see this issue again if it's already been done to death apologies<BR>
>in advance)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:01:06 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:48:30 -0500, "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Was written:<BR>
><BR>
>> I wanna own the first nuclear-powered lawnmower on my block! Where<BR>
>>can I get a liter or so of plutonium in an aqueous solution?<BR>
><BR>
>Lets file that idea right beside the plans for nuclear long johns for navy<BR>
>divers.  You know, the ones designed to keep them warn on cold winter dives.<BR>
><BR>
What a great idea! Sailors could still have "a girl in every port"<BR>
without a kid in every port. Thank you radiation!  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1952<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1953</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 21 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1953<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Airforce motto<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
Re: Belter Alert! RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
Schmitz and ideas<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1952<BR>
Languages in OTU<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED No More legalise<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1950<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Population Growth<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:03:21 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:18:39 -0500, Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> In the UK we find US submarines by watching fishing boats travelling<BR>
>> backwards at speed.<BR>
>> -- <BR>
>> Martin Hardgrave<BR>
><BR>
>This is true!  But, I have only heard of it happening with a Russian sub that<BR>
>was in US waters.  My father was captain of a midwater dragnet boat off the<BR>
>Washington coast (just south of Puget Sound inlet), when one of the boats in<BR>
>the fleet caught something BIG in it's net.  The boat was pulled backward<BR>
>for a ways before they managed to cut the cables from the winches.  Shortly <BR>
>after that, a sub surfaced with a net draped over the front end.  The sub did<BR>
>not stay on the surface for long though.  The captain of the fishing boat, and<BR>
>possibly several other boats called in the sub to the US Navy.  Shortly, there<BR>
>was a small fleet of destroyers, and sub hunting aircraft sweeping the area<BR>
>for the sub, apparently Russian.  This happened in the summer of '84 I believe.<BR>
><BR>
>It never hit the news, I only heard about this from my father and other<BR>
>fisherman that I knew.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC a similar thing happened during the filming of "The Hunt For Red<BR>
October." I think there was a fishing boat that got pulled under and<BR>
at least one fisherman died. I could be wrong though.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:48:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:28 21.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>That last is a "Spaceling" taken from the book "Reefs of Space".  They<BR>
>>generate their own atmosphere around their bodies (though I don't remember<BR>
>>how).  I have used them to annoy Belter characters since Supplement 4 first<BR>
>>introduced them. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, I remember that one, too.  But I think that was more "space fantasy"<BR>
> since it assumed a lot of "super-bio-tech" like cellular fusion reactors, <BR>
> etc.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it *started* by assuming a universe where the Big Bang theory was<BR>
*wrong* and the "Continous Creation" theory was *right*. <BR>
<BR>
Such a universe would (probably) still be usable for Traveller, though<BR>
some subtle changes might be needed. It'd also be fun to throw things<BR>
like the reefs at players...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:52:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Belter Alert! RealLife(tm) Asteroid Breakthrough!<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Has anyone else noted the very well defined 'impact' crater on the inside<BR>
> curve of the asteroid?  This asteroid _could_ have been moved <BR>
> using atomic charges.  A number of charges set off at the<BR>
> center of gravity of the asteroid could have been used in the past to<BR>
> move this asteroid.  For a Milieu zero, or earlier campaign, this could<BR>
> be useful material.  Has a radiation map of the asteroid been made?<BR>
> I am only aware of the multi-spectral imagers, but don't know what <BR>
> frequencies are being observed.<BR>
<BR>
Doesn't matter. The amount of contamination would be low, and it'd only<BR>
take a few hundred years for it to drop to levels where the only way to<BR>
detect it would be via isotope screening of physical samples.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:54:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Schmitz and ideas<BR>
<BR>
I did a bit more digging at www.baen.com. The Telzey Amberdon book has<BR>
a subtitle along the lines of "Volume I of the complete history of the<BR>
Hub" or some such. So it looks like they are going to reprint *all* of<BR>
Schmitz's Hub stories. <BR>
<BR>
Trust me, these *are* good fodder for adventure ideas. The Telzey<BR>
stories are all psi oriented, but most of the others are more<BR>
conventional. Several of his older stories will make great adventures<BR>
or adventure seeds. "The Tuvela" for example. That's a story about an<BR>
invasion force being thwarted by someone playing up to the invader's<BR>
"boogeyman" legends... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:31:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:17 20.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> At 20:01 19.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>>obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
>>><BR>
>>Placing it on a moon in the outer system won't cost any more than using<BR>
>>jump. Probably *less* since you can use automated drones, or just a big<BR>
>>mass driver for transport. Garbage doesn't *care* if it's in transit<BR>
>>for 20 or 50 years. And it'll be easier to get it to the right place. <BR>
><BR>
> But as you stated above, a mass driver would lead to an orbit. Thinking in<BR>
> terms of thousands of years, it would possibly come back.<BR>
<BR>
Not if you aim the loads to crash land on that moon, or include just<BR>
enough automation and thrusters to soft-land the load.<BR>
<BR>
Or you could even have a small contigent of folks based on or near (in<BR>
a space hab) the moon in question and have them use a small "tug" to<BR>
intercept incoming loads and dump them in the right spot on the moon<BR>
(makes it easier to get stuff later if you have good records of just<BR>
what is located where).<BR>
<BR>
This would be a *real* lousy post. You'd have a comm link to the<BR>
mainworld, but with multiple *hour* timelag. So you could listen to<BR>
radio or watch "TV". But you couldn't *talk* to anybody except the rest<BR>
of the station crew.<BR>
<BR>
>>Three Mile Island had *more* things go wrong than even the anti-nuke<BR>
>>folks had dared to suggest as a "worst case" acident. <BR>
><BR>
> BTW: Could anyone tell me poor European what that Three Miles Island<BR>
> incident is?<BR>
> (We have our own "incidents" here, you know...)<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall all the details, but essentially a series of stupid<BR>
mistakes ruined a reactor, and as part of the process of preventing an<BR>
explosion (not nuclear, just steam and possibly some hydrogen gas<BR>
buildup) they had to vent some of the air in the containment into the<BR>
outside. This release, while huge by nuclear industry standards wasn't<BR>
any big deal compared to most other exposures to radiation that occur<BR>
everyday.<BR>
<BR>
>>Which is why I expect a number of TL-8 thru TL-10 (or more) designs to<BR>
>>use fission power, possibly in combination with a nuclear rocket engine<BR>
>>of some sort (which, btw, emit almost no radioactive material). For<BR>
>>non-starships it should be a definite win until smal fusion plants<BR>
>>appear. For starships it'd be a bit iffier, but I can't say for sure<BR>
>>til I have some of the more modern design rules to use.<BR>
><BR>
> .. which would possibly lead to the problem we originally discussed in this<BR>
> thread. Just one thing: IMHO fission reactors are too risky, but that<BR>
> doesn't matter for MTU: I don't think most planetary governments (or the<BR>
> Imperium) would care about the risk if it was below a certain level, so I<BR>
> deem fission starships fairly fitting for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
And the ones that do care will simply tell them to dock at the<BR>
highport and not allow them to *land* on the planet. Sort of like the<BR>
way some port cities here and now seem to have it arranged so that the<BR>
beautiful looking cruise ships can tie up downtown, next to a park, but<BR>
all the ugly frieghters and tankers have to tie up at rundown docks way<BR>
off in the industrial district...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:12:23 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1952<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
My reading of the background material in Imperium suggests that<BR>
the Terrans didn't contact the Villani untill developement of J2, ie TL 11.<BR>
The Nth interstellar wars continued untill Terra developed J3 and<BR>
finally had an edge.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
First contact was made with J1 engines. The US Barnard Star mission had to use<BR>
fuel cahes to get to and from Barnard. So giving Terra J1 is cannon.<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
I can't find any other references to the respective<BR>
TL in any of my material (an incomplete collection to be sure) although<BR>
the MT Imperial Encyclopedia suggests (but does not explicitly require)<BR>
the TL scheme you propose. Personally I'd give the Terrans TL 11 at<BR>
least for computers (resulting in ships of same maximum mass if somewhat<BR>
less capable.)<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
Make it lower, as it also shows a) the ramping up of Terran tech, and b) makes<BR>
it more intresting.<BR>
<BR>
And I do agree on Terran Computer tech.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:19:42 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Languages in OTU<BR>
<BR>
I'm working on a language file for GCA (GURPS Character Assistant)<BR>
using Traveller languages. I need a few questions answered.<BR>
<BR>
What is the name of the K'kree language? (That's the one alien module<BR>
I don't have.)<BR>
<BR>
What is the name of the Hiver language? Is it possible for a human to<BR>
speak it or do they always rely on translation devices? Do the other<BR>
races of the Hive Federation have their own languages?<BR>
<BR>
Is there a web site that has this info already?<BR>
<BR>
Here are the languages I have so far:<BR>
Anglic<BR>
Aslan<BR>
Core<BR>
Gvegh<BR>
Gvegh-Aek<BR>
Knithnour<BR>
Oynprith<BR>
Riftian<BR>
Rim<BR>
Taeksu<BR>
Te-zlodh<BR>
Transform<BR>
Uedhu<BR>
Vilani<BR>
Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance!<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you when you sleep<BR>
 Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;"<BR>
                                               -"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:04:06 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED No More legalise<BR>
<BR>
Continued from Part I...<BR>
"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one<BR>
because of his exercise of Constitutional rights."<BR>
- - --Sherar v. Cullen 481 F. 946<BR>
<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
<BR>
"Please dear god, stop all this American legalise. Please, I can't take it,<BR>
please PLEASE"<BR>
 - Michael Hughes TML Feb 22 2000<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:03:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1950<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 03:20:06 PST<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
> <snip><BR>
<BR>
>>Even the waste disposal problems are as bad as many think.<BR>
><BR>
> How bad do most people think waste disposal problems are?<BR>
> A lot of people have problems with plain old non-toxic waste<BR>
> garbage dumps in their neighborhood let alone toxic or nuclear<BR>
> dumps.<BR>
<BR>
You have to keep in mind the fact that the *total* waste produced by a<BR>
nuclear plant during it's *entire* lifetime would easily fir into a<BR>
medium sized stadium *without* taking any steps to concentrate it.<BR>
Heck, it takes up less space than the ore you mined to get the<BR>
fissionables! And if you wait about 300 years, the *ore* would be more<BR>
radioactive than the waste.<BR>
<BR>
Compare that to the megatons a year of toxic sludge, fly ash, and slag<BR>
a coal fired plant produces. And they are toxic forever.<BR>
<BR>
>>> Has somebody actually managed to build one of those?  My understanding<BR>
>>> is theoretically posible but not practically do-able.<BR>
>><BR>
>>They had a full up system that differed from what would be flown only<BR>
>>in the way the pieces were laid out *running* at full thrust at the<BR>
>>Idaho reactor tests site back in the mid 60s.<BR>
>><BR>
>>It's *quite* doable to build units that get something like double the<BR>
>>Isp of the shuttle main engines. It's just that they *weigh* a lot more<BR>
>>than shuttle engines. So they aren't useful for getting from ground to<BR>
>>orbit. But they'd be great for interplanetary missions, especially<BR>
>>manned ones.<BR>
><BR>
> Well if they weigh a whole lot more in ratio to their thrust they<BR>
> probably aren't practical for any but the largest craft. (I'd have to<BR>
> have comparative fuel use numbers and mass and so forth<BR>
> for a more insightfull pro/con comparison)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, for an "orbit-to-orbit" ship (ie one that never lands) the<BR>
"fuel efficiency" (Isp) is more important than the mass of the engine.<BR>
Being able to thrust at .1 g for *weeks* gets you their a lot faster<BR>
than boosting at 6 g for minutes.<BR>
<BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>>But there are a *lot* of space related things we've been *capable* of<BR>
>>doing since the mid 60s, but that have been moldering away forgotten<BR>
>>ever since the space cutbacks.<BR>
><BR>
> I cannot argue with that.<BR>
<BR>
I think we'd *both* rather have space-based solar power than any of the<BR>
other choices. Heck, it is the *only* system that eliminates thermal<BR>
pollutuion from *generating* the power (since that happens out in<BR>
space). <BR>
<BR>
>>Well, actually, the minimum size for a reactor is more like a couple of<BR>
>>liters! Critical mass of plutonium in aqueous solution is a liter or so<BR>
>>of solution. With sufficient ingenuity making that into a combo<BR>
>>boiler/heat exchanger would be fairly easy. Drain the water from the<BR>
>>heat exchange tubing and the reaction *has* to stop.<BR>
>><BR>
>>It'd be low power. But not *that* low. I'd guess somewhere between a<BR>
>>lawnmower engine and a car engine.<BR>
><BR>
> 1 liter for the reaction mass I'll accept but what's the additional figure<BR>
> for containment, the turbine (or what have you), the water for cooling<BR>
> (most nuclear plants are smack dab on lakes to provide a large<BR>
> amount of water for the cooling towers). And assume for a moment<BR>
> that the cooling system fails and the water drain becomes pluged<BR>
> somehow. The core blows (Steam explosion not nuclear) spewing<BR>
> PU (as I understand a very nasty chemical in addition to it's radio-<BR>
> activity.) around.<BR>
<BR>
As soon as the water starts turning to steam, the reaction slows down.<BR>
That's because it takes *liquid* water to moderate the neutrons enough<BR>
for a reaction. Make the vessel large enough and strong enough to<BR>
handle steam at medium pressure and the "worst case" would have the<BR>
water flash to steam, pressurizing the vessel. The chain reaction drops<BR>
to low levels because the steam can't slow the nuetrons enough for them<BR>
to fission Pu atoms anymore (yes, if they are too *fast* the reaction<BR>
stops!) The Pu compounds that were formerly in solution precipitate<BR>
out, and then some time later, the vessel cools enough for the water to<BR>
condense. Then *slowly* the Pu compounds will dissolve in the water,<BR>
and as they reach the right concentratons, the reactioncan resume. But<BR>
that will be *hours* if not days later. And it'll take a long timer to<BR>
hit full power again.<BR>
<BR>
I expect a proper nuclear engineer could design it so it never got<BR>
truly critical, just generated lots of heat and neutrons. Power output<BR>
would be via *low* pressure steam, which, while it lowers the<BR>
efficiency, is *much* easier to deal with. <BR>
<BR>
Picture something like that at the heart of what looks to be an old<BR>
fashioned steam locomotive on some colony world. The sheer mass of the<BR>
condensers and the rest of the engine would be ample shielding for the<BR>
small reactor(s) in the heart of the "boiler". <BR>
<BR>
And keep in mind that by combining the the reactor and the "heat<BR>
exchanger", we have a reactor where if you drain the "non-radioactive<BR>
water" loop, the reactor shuts down, because all the tubes carrying<BR>
that water thru it no longer contain the water that was needed. <BR>
<BR>
Yes, you can shut down a reactor by removing *moderator*, just as well<BR>
as by adding neutron aborbers.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm not sure you'd want a plant of that type<BR>
> on a manned craft. And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn<BR>
> mower.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, not on a lawn mower. but there are lots of applications where you<BR>
can use a small power plant of that sort. Mostly unmanned.<BR>
<BR>
> Just a few more things to work out before I'd call this a practical<BR>
> power plant.<BR>
<BR>
True enough. But there are applications where it'd be doable. To be<BR>
*completely* silly, it might make a good heating plant for an arctic<BR>
base. I'd have *three* sets of "water loops" for that though.<BR>
<BR>
One would be the "reactor water", that is the water containing the Pu<BR>
salts. Safety would be allowing the water to depressurize, boil, and<BR>
condense in a seperate container, thus leaving the Pu salts and the<BR>
water seperated (thus, no reaction).<BR>
<BR>
Second would be the "exchange loop", it'd circulate thru tubes in the<BR>
reacter, getting heated (and occasionally stopping a neutron and<BR>
creating a hydrogen or oxygen isotope), then it'd circulate thru tuibes<BR>
in a boiler, heating water (maybe even producing steam). Safety would<BR>
be dumping ito into a holding container. With air replacing water in<BR>
the tubes in the reactor, the chain reaction would die down.<BR>
<BR>
Third would be the water in the boiler. It provides heat either as "hot<BR>
water" or as steam. Either way, it circulates thru pipes to rdiators<BR>
and thru floor slabs. Keeping things toasty warm. It can be drained<BR>
into a tank if the secondary loop starts leaking into it. Though I'd<BR>
expect the dilution to be such that you might not need to woryy. Still,<BR>
better safe than sorry.<BR>
<BR>
You can also insert damper rods into the reactor. *Or* since critical<BR>
mass depends on *shape* as well as volume, you can dump the reactor<BR>
solution into a vessel shaped as a thin disk. The high surface to<BR>
volume ratio means that most of the neutrons will escape without ever<BR>
striking a Pu atom. Again, the reaction stops. <BR>
<BR>
To refuel, you drain the solution into several shipping containers,<BR>
keeping them seperated and shielded. Then you rinse the reactor with<BR>
something that will strip deposits from the sides of the veseel. That<BR>
too gets dumped into a container and shipped off with the old solution<BR>
for reprocessing. Then you dump the fresh solution from it's containers<BR>
into the reactor, and set aside the containers and the container of<BR>
rinse solution for the next fuel change. Which will be several years<BR>
later (maybe more!)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:41:45 -0600<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > But as you stated above, a mass driver would lead to an orbit. Thinking in<BR>
> > terms of thousands of years, it would possibly come back.<BR>
><BR>
> Not if you aim the loads to crash land on that moon, or include just<BR>
> enough automation and thrusters to soft-land the load.<BR>
><BR>
> Or you could even have a small contigent of folks based on or near (in<BR>
> a space hab) the moon in question and have them use a small "tug" to<BR>
> intercept incoming loads and dump them in the right spot on the moon<BR>
> (makes it easier to get stuff later if you have good records of just<BR>
> what is located where).<BR>
<BR>
    This would be good, especially for the nuclear waste, which over time would<BR>
build up to some critical mass resulting in a massive explosion tearing the moon<BR>
away from the planet, stranding those stationed on the moon base and dooming them<BR>
to a long and very strange voyage through space and time.  Hmm, that almost<BR>
sounds like an idea for a sci-fi plot, doesn't it?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> This would be a *real* lousy post. You'd have a comm link to the<BR>
> mainworld, but with multiple *hour* timelag. So you could listen to<BR>
> radio or watch "TV". But you couldn't *talk* to anybody except the rest<BR>
> of the station crew.<BR>
<BR>
    Depends on the moon.  If it's a moon of the same planet, the timelag will be<BR>
negligible (it's a little over a second to our own, for instance).  Let's see...a<BR>
one hour lag means a distance of approximately 8.32 AU, which is about equivalent<BR>
to the distance from the Sun to halfway between Jupiter and Saturn, right?<BR>
(Trying to extract Bode's Law from the depths of my memory as I type.)  The only<BR>
reason I can see for launching waste that far would be to try to reprocess it for<BR>
use on colonies/stations out there...which certainly lends a somewhat amusing air<BR>
to the whole scheme.  ("Give us your...wretched refuse" indeed! <g>)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:45:46 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Population Growth<BR>
<BR>
"Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I know of two methods of desalination. One uses distillation and <BR>
>requires a heat source to boil off the seawater and then condense <BR>
>the fresh water that results. The other method uses reverse <BR>
>osmosis. It is my belief that as the world's population increases, <BR>
>and fresh water becomes a scarcer resource that getting water <BR>
>from the sea will be the only answer.  I'm afraid that I do not have <BR>
>enough faith in humanity (as opposed to Humaniti) to believe that <BR>
>they will limit their own population or limit their use of the <BR>
>environmentally scarce resources.<BR>
<BR>
While I agree that we're not likely to limit our resource usage, and I <BR>
question whether doing so is even desirable (using renewable <BR>
instead of non-renewable resources and doing so in an <BR>
environmentally sound and sustainable fashion is a very different <BR>
and IMHO much more important issue).  However, on the issue of <BR>
population growth, the question is resolving itself.<BR>
<BR>
Overpopulation is simply not the problem it was thought to be in <BR>
the 60s and 70s.  If you look at recent population projections <BR>
(especially when compared to early 1970s projections) you will see <BR>
a dramatic difference.  The rate of population growth on the planet <BR>
has been continually decreasing.  Moreover, it has been <BR>
decreasing significantly faster than the UN or any similar group has <BR>
predicted.  The most recent figures I've seen suggest that the <BR>
population will peak at around or a bit below 10 billion, and previous <BR>
predictions indicate this is likely to be too high.  After this it will <BR>
decline.<BR>
<BR>
One of the most naive assumptions made in the 70s was ZPG.  <BR>
There is no magic zero point that population growth will stabilize at. <BR>
Currently much of Western Europe is experiencing a (slow) <BR>
negative population growth (ie the population is falling).  Currently, <BR>
no one has any notion what the eventual stable human population <BR>
will be, but it will likely be below 9 billion, and could possibly be <BR>
below what we have now.<BR>
<BR>
Current data for the USA, Japan, Russia, and eight European <BR>
countries show that in none, repeat, none of them does the average <BR>
number of children born to a woman of childbearing age exceed <BR>
2.0.  In the USA it gets close, about 1.95.  Sweden is next with <BR>
1.8, followed by Britain and Poland; Japan has around 1.3, and <BR>
Spain and Italy both have about 1.2.  Source: May 1998 issue of  <BR>
_Economist_.<BR>
<BR>
While the population in the 3rd world is still growing, even there the <BR>
rate of growth continues to slow.  Between diseases like AIDS in <BR>
the worse-off regions, and rising standards of living in the more <BR>
prosperous regions we're looking at populations which will be <BR>
stabilizing and then likely declining over most of the world. <BR>
<BR>
Dragging this back to Traveller, the important point seems to be <BR>
that the increases in standards of living which accompanies post <BR>
industrial tech levels brings about decreases in population growth.  <BR>
People simply don't need large families anymore, and in fact large <BR>
families become a serious economic burden.  From some of the <BR>
Western European and Japanese data it seems that for many <BR>
having any children is considered a burden by many (admittedly <BR>
including myself).  <BR>
<BR>
The question then becomes why the Imperium has such a large <BR>
population.  However, all of those worlds which have moderate to <BR>
high tech levels and populations in the hundreds of thousands to <BR>
hundreds of millions begin to make sense.  Perhaps the high-pop <BR>
worlds are ones where there is some strong cultural, religious, or <BR>
governmental incentives to have large families.<BR>
<BR>
Comments?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com      <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:37:28 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:49:18 -0500<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
>Subject: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.  Typical designs for space craft<BR>
>using fusion planets are not meant to enter atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
I guess the streamlining/airframe option for spacecraft is<BR>
really all about looks then if none of these ships are suposed<BR>
to enter the atmosphere. <grin><BR>
<BR>
A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
directly. It generates heat which transfers to the cooling liquid<BR>
which becomes steam which drives a turbine attached to an<BR>
alternator/generator. This steam then needs to be cooled so that<BR>
it can be used to cool the reactor core again. Yes you can radiate<BR>
that heat to space but you still need coolant for the power<BR>
plant to work.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>You only have to shield one side as well. The side facing the rest of the<BR>
>ship.  The reactor sits out from the rest of the ship.<BR>
<BR>
Well I was thinking in terms of the other traveller starship<BR>
components that are all accesible in the ship for maintanance<BR>
purposes.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>This is the kind of stuff you run into out in boonies of Traveller<BR>
>space.  It's pretty cheap and low tech.<BR>
>"Ya, we're Astronauts!  Check out our ship.  It can make the run to the<BR>
>Asteroid Belt in just under six months!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Actually the original premise is that these plants would be in use<BR>
in the Imperium at lower than the published minimum fusion<BR>
plant requirements. (originally it was about using fission plants<BR>
in that role)<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:23:58 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:15:46 +1100<BR>
>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re : Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
><BR>
>DaveShayne wrote :-<BR>
><with regard to nuclear plants> :-<BR>
>> You still waste the space occupied by the containment building<BR>
>> for the forseable future.<BR>
><BR>
>Not really ; the core and the primary heat exchange loop constituents<BR>
>need to be recycled. Fusion reactors will have the same problem - the<BR>
>structural elements will degrade from neutron bombardment, with time.<BR>
<BR>
This recycling of reactor components. Does it occur while they<BR>
are still "hot" from fifty years of being bombarded or do you<BR>
wait untill they "cool off"; however long that takes.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> >Even the waste disposal problems are as bad as many think.<BR>
>><BR>
>> How bad do most people think waste disposal problems are?<BR>
>> A lot of people have problems with plain old non-toxic waste<BR>
>> garbage dumps in their neighborhood let alone toxic or nuclear<BR>
>> dumps.<BR>
><BR>
>The toxic waste produced in the manufacture of solar cells is<BR>
>considerable ; per unit mass of product finally produced, solar cell<BR>
>manufacture is almost as bad as integrated circuit fabrication (the<BR>
>winner and champion in the toxic waste sweepstakes!).<BR>
<BR>
One of the more succesful aplications of solar power is the<BR>
solar hot water heater: 4'*8' plywood painted flat black and<BR>
surrounded by two by fours. Run coper pipe through it and<BR>
cover with plexiglass. Stick it up on your roof and hook it<BR>
up to your hot water line. Free hot water whenever the<BR>
sun is out. Not hot enough to run a turbine but it does<BR>
save a good deal of gas/electricity that would otherwise<BR>
be used for that purpose.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>The problem with disposing of nuclear waste is 'NIMBY' waxed large.<BR>
>Existing proposed solutions (vitrification into Synroc[TM]) or storage<BR>
>in salt domes, etc. would achieve confinement for several milennia.<BR>
<BR>
Yup It's NIMBY all right. Would you like all of the high level nuclear<BR>
waste from the Imperium in *your* backyard? We're looking for volunteers.<BR>
Any takers?<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>The bottom line is :- How much risk is a society prepared to take?<BR>
>We drive cars and use electrical appliances in our houses routinely -<BR>
>they are far more likely to kill you than a reactor accident.<BR>
<BR>
I think I've already said that nuclear plants are mostly safe. I'm<BR>
arguing about longterm problems of nuclear power/waste management.<BR>
><BR>
><on nuclear propulsion> :-<BR>
>> Well if they weigh a whole lot more in ratio to their thrust they<BR>
>> probably aren't practical for any but the largest craft.<BR>
><BR>
>NERVA, ROVER, etc. were the best engines that 1960s-70s tech could<BR>
>build. We can do better now - a lot of engineering experience has<BR>
>accumulated in the interim.<BR>
><BR>
>Compact nuclear cores that have been proposed recently - 'jelly roll'<BR>
>designs - have nearly ten times the power output of the Space Shuttle<BR>
>main engine per unit mass, with twice the specific impulse (~800 vs. 400<BR>
>seconds). These were mentioned in a recent 'Scientific American' special<BR>
>issue on the future of space exploration.<BR>
<BR>
Untill somebody builds one I'll have to treat it as vaporware. The<BR>
claims of proponents are frequently exagerated in order to<BR>
gain financial support for projects/technologies. I'm not<BR>
saying it's not possible. I'm saying prove it first.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><on Leonard's miniature reactor> :-<BR>
>A radiothermal generator is probably a better idea at this end of the<BR>
>power range. With current or very near future technology :-<BR>
><BR>
>Plutonium 238 :- 73W/kg, halflife 87 years (US space program, since the<BR>
>1960s)<BR>
>Curium 244 :- 534W/kg, halflife 13 years (an interesting candidate).<BR>
><BR>
>NB : The masses above do not include a heat engine to convert heat into<BR>
>usable work.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking that Leonards microfission would produce a little more<BR>
power than that. (But a specific power level was never specified so...)<BR>
><BR>
>Robert O'Connor<BR>
>Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1953<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 22 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1954<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Population Growth<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re Languages in the OTU<BR>
re Population Growth<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: Terra Nth interstellar war TL<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Population Growth in 3I<BR>
Traveller Languages<BR>
Re: TNE query<BR>
Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Nukes in Space!<BR>
Gashidda & Dingir<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:57:16 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Population Growth<BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<snips discussion of Terra showing trends toward population decline>><BR>
> <BR>
> Dragging this back to Traveller, the important point seems to be<BR>
> that the increases in standards of living which accompanies post<BR>
> industrial tech levels brings about decreases in population growth.<BR>
> People simply don't need large families anymore, and in fact large<BR>
> families become a serious economic burden.  From some of the<BR>
> Western European and Japanese data it seems that for many<BR>
> having any children is considered a burden by many (admittedly<BR>
> including myself).<BR>
> <BR>
> The question then becomes why the Imperium has such a large<BR>
> population.  However, all of those worlds which have moderate to<BR>
> high tech levels and populations in the hundreds of thousands to<BR>
> hundreds of millions begin to make sense.  Perhaps the high-pop<BR>
> worlds are ones where there is some strong cultural, religious, or<BR>
> governmental incentives to have large families.<BR>
<BR>
I can see a couple of issues that would lead to population growth in the<BR>
3I:<BR>
<BR>
1.  The "frontier".  As long as there are underpopulated planets, there<BR>
will be a tendency for populations to increase, with the "frontier" as<BR>
the safety valve.  An analogy to this would be the United States and<BR>
Europe during the last half of the 19th century.  Even as large numbers<BR>
of people migrated West (both from Europe to America, and from the<BR>
American Eastern Seaboard to the West), the base population in<BR>
"civilized" regions (Europe and the East Coast, respectively) also<BR>
dramatically increased.  As the American West (and other reasonably<BR>
habitable, freely available lands) filled up, the population growth rate<BR>
in Europe slowed (as did, ISTR, the native-born population growth rate<BR>
in the US).<BR>
<BR>
2.  Increased carrying capacity due to high technology.  As technology<BR>
increases resource production per unit of land, the population can<BR>
expand accordingly, without feeling "crowded" by a scarcity economy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:59:51 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
It seems that everyone has forgotten the _real_ drawback to dumping<BR>
garbage in space:<BR>
<BR>
The need for interstellar garbage scows to collect all the "space<BR>
baggies" of dumped refuse.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
The Galaxy, Ad Infinitum.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:55:37 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Languages in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
>What is the name of the Hiver language? Is it possible for a human to<BR>
>speak it or do they always rely on translation devices? Do the other<BR>
>races of the Hive Federation have their own languages?<BR>
><BR>
It has no spoken name. In fact, it is not spoken. Hiver is either written<BR>
or gestural; it is mentioned that all member races of the Hive Federation<BR>
are expected to learn written hiver. (AM7:H p16) I suspect creative humans<BR>
might be able to learn to "Understand" "Spoken" (read as gestured) hiver;<BR>
attempts to "Speak" gestured hiver would be crippled (but possibly<BR>
successful if done with sufficient creativity and dexterity) by having only<BR>
5 digits per limb.<BR>
<BR>
Also note that no "hiver words" are provided, and no method for generating<BR>
them is in either H&I nor AM7:H. This is because there is no spoken<BR>
component, and hiver is apparently symbolic in written form, much like the<BR>
1800 common ideograms of Japanese, or the ideograms of chinese.<BR>
<BR>
So, dealing with hivers is typically going to be a case of "Live<BR>
Subtitles"... just look at the translators used by hivers! (They typically<BR>
include a screen for displaying a "Simulated hiver" gesturing the<BR>
translation; I suspect subtitles would be included for non-hivers to verify<BR>
the translation...)<BR>
<BR>
BTW: it is mentioned in AM7:H that all names that are not english<BR>
translations are derived from the  Gurvin language (AM7:H, p13). Gurvin<BR>
DOES have a spoken language, with ideographic written form.<BR>
<BR>
>What is the name of the K'kree language? (That's the one alien module<BR>
>I don't have.)<BR>
><BR>
AM2:K'Kree only refers to the language as either "K'kree" or "K'kree<BR>
language". I believe the language was named in a JTAS article, which I<BR>
can't find right now.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:16:18 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: re Population Growth<BR>
<BR>
>Current data for the USA, Japan, Russia, and eight European<BR>
>countries show that in none, repeat, none of them does the average<BR>
>number of children born to a woman of childbearing age exceed<BR>
>2.0.  In the USA it gets close, about 1.95.  Sweden is next with<BR>
>1.8, followed by Britain and Poland; Japan has around 1.3, and<BR>
>Spain and Italy both have about 1.2.  Source: May 1998 issue of<BR>
>_Economist_.<BR>
><BR>
Interesting data. The 1990 US Census shows the average children per adult<BR>
at just a hair over 1... It will be very interesting to see the results<BR>
from the 2000 census. (OTOH, the US Census has a potential margin of error<BR>
that is huge... They KNOW they didn't count everyone... but they can't<BR>
account for the ones who they didn't find...)<BR>
<BR>
>The question then becomes why the Imperium has such a large<BR>
>population.  However, all of those worlds which have moderate to<BR>
>high tech levels and populations in the hundreds of thousands to<BR>
>hundreds of millions begin to make sense.  Perhaps the high-pop<BR>
>worlds are ones where there is some strong cultural, religious, or<BR>
>governmental incentives to have large families.<BR>
><BR>
>Comments?<BR>
<BR>
In the US, certain cultural and religious sub-groups have strong<BR>
propensities towards large children per female ratios...typically,<BR>
hispanic, the poor, and mormons and catholics tend towards larger families;<BR>
typical middle class families have been under the self-replacement rates<BR>
for quite some time.<BR>
<BR>
In the 3I, many worlds will have cultural, religious, or military reasons<BR>
for large populations. Keep in mind, that without regard for the reasons in<BR>
re robots, if robotic troops are not practical, more people means more<BR>
potential soldiers.<BR>
<BR>
Typically, IMTU, high pop worlds don't have reproductive limits, and<BR>
therefore tend to attract those who want large families for whatever<BR>
reasons. Persons raised in large families tend to be more likely to have<BR>
multiple children.<BR>
<BR>
Also, there was an article at one point that made the point that the 3rd<BR>
child of a vilani noble was the heir... this would mean that, in vilani<BR>
noble families, there would be typically 3 children needed in order to pass<BR>
the title; 4 if two titles, etc. So in such a society, 3-4 children would<BR>
seem to be the norm... at least for inheritance of significant assets.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:27:28 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
At 8:37 PM -0500 2/21/2000, DaveShayne wrote:<BR>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:49:18 -0500<BR>
>>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
>>Subject: fission power for space craft<BR>
><BR>
><snip><BR>
><BR>
>><BR>
>>Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.  Typical designs for space craft<BR>
>>using fusion planets are not meant to enter atmosphere.<BR>
><BR>
>I guess the streamlining/airframe option for spacecraft is<BR>
>really all about looks then if none of these ships are suposed<BR>
>to enter the atmosphere. <grin><BR>
><BR>
>A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
>directly. It generates heat which transfers to the cooling liquid<BR>
>which becomes steam which drives a turbine attached to an<BR>
>alternator/generator. This steam then needs to be cooled so that<BR>
>it can be used to cool the reactor core again. Yes you can radiate<BR>
>that heat to space but you still need coolant for the power<BR>
>plant to work.<BR>
<BR>
And radiating heat into space isn't very efficient.  And many<BR>
ships generate gigawatts or terawatts which is a lot of energy<BR>
to get rid of.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that a spaceship is a perfect radiating body and a<BR>
space background temperature of 4 K, a 200 ton far trader under<BR>
full thrust generates about 60 megawatts.  To radiate this<BR>
amount of heat would require a skin temperature of about 700<BR>
Celsius.  No ship is going to be a perfect radiator, so the<BR>
actual temperature will be higher.  This is regardless of the<BR>
type of cooling system the powerplant uses.  All that can do is<BR>
get the heat to the skin of the ship rather than heating the<BR>
whole ship up on the way to the skin.<BR>
<BR>
I think that others have demonstrated that most GURPS energy<BR>
weapons would quickly convert themselves into plasma without<BR>
a very efficient cooling system...<BR>
<BR>
Basically, if you are thinking of worrying about cooling in<BR>
Traveller, don't.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:23:50 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
I have a couple of questions for the list, as I prepare the formal<BR>
THUDDD 12 proposal:<BR>
<BR>
1.  Where is the Spinward Marches IN Sector HQ ca. 1115?  GT:BTC<BR>
mentions that Sector HQ is on Efate.  Am I reading this correctly?<BR>
<BR>
2.  My proposal is for a 1000-5000 dton commerce raider, TL15 (GTL12). <BR>
Last call:  Are there any comments or complaints about this as the<BR>
THUDDD 12 subject?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:36:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I have a couple of questions for the list, as I prepare the formal<BR>
> THUDDD 12 proposal:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1.  Where is the Spinward Marches IN Sector HQ ca. 1115?  GT:BTC<BR>
> mentions that Sector HQ is on Efate.  Am I reading this correctly?<BR>
<BR>
According to  The TNE Regency Sourcebook p38 states that Regina is both<BR>
the capital of the Regina Subsector and the Spinward Marches...I think it<BR>
is also stated in CT's The Traveller Adventure, but I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:36:59 -0600<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
Baron Coulsworth and the design team at Maximus Industries are <BR>
already hard at work on a new design for this competition.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:07:51 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra Nth interstellar war TL<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:12:23 +1000<BR>
>From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1952<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>First contact was made with J1 engines. The US Barnard Star mission had to<BR>
use<BR>
>fuel cahes to get to and from Barnard. So giving Terra J1 is cannon.<BR>
<BR>
OH. I guess I don't have that book then. I don't have a lot of the early<BR>
material it having come out when I was young and poor.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>>><BR>
>I can't find any other references to the respective<BR>
>TL in any of my material (an incomplete collection to be sure) although<BR>
>the MT Imperial Encyclopedia suggests (but does not explicitly require)<BR>
>the TL scheme you propose. Personally I'd give the Terrans TL 11 at<BR>
>least for computers (resulting in ships of same maximum mass if somewhat<BR>
>less capable.)<BR>
><<<<BR>
><BR>
>Make it lower, as it also shows a) the ramping up of Terran tech, and b)<BR>
makes<BR>
>it more intresting.<BR>
><BR>
>And I do agree on Terran Computer tech.<BR>
<BR>
So TL9 with TL 11 computers?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:48:13 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:03:33 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1950<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>You have to keep in mind the fact that the *total* waste produced by a<BR>
>nuclear plant during it's *entire* lifetime would easily fir into a<BR>
>medium sized stadium *without* taking any steps to concentrate it.<BR>
>Heck, it takes up less space than the ore you mined to get the<BR>
>fissionables! And if you wait about 300 years, the *ore* would be more<BR>
>radioactive than the waste.<BR>
<BR>
but it's those 300 years when the waste is more radioactive that are the<BR>
concern. I personally wouldn't want to live my life next door to a stadium<BR>
sized<BR>
pile of yellowcake either. Perhaps I'm overreacting though. If the old AEC<BR>
felt it was safe who am I to doubt.(Atomic energy commision, since<BR>
renamed the Department of Energy, with a long history of publicly<BR>
underestimating risks regarding exposure to radioactivity.)<BR>
<BR>
>Compare that to the megatons a year of toxic sludge, fly ash, and slag<BR>
>a coal fired plant produces. And they are toxic forever.<BR>
<BR>
All to true alas.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Actually, for an "orbit-to-orbit" ship (ie one that never lands) the<BR>
>"fuel efficiency" (Isp) is more important than the mass of the engine.<BR>
>Being able to thrust at .1 g for *weeks* gets you their a lot faster<BR>
>than boosting at 6 g for minutes.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps I'm being dense but isn't it a question of total posible<BR>
velocity change? Which IIRC *is* dependant in part on the<BR>
mass of the ship. Which means that a very massy engine<BR>
that generates more thrust could be a less efficient alternative<BR>
to a lighter engine that produces less thrust. Particularly with<BR>
small payloads(because engine mass is a greater percentage<BR>
of ship mass.) Am I missing something?<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> <snip><BR>
>><BR>
>>>But there are a *lot* of space related things we've been *capable* of<BR>
>>>doing since the mid 60s, but that have been moldering away forgotten<BR>
>>>ever since the space cutbacks.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I cannot argue with that.<BR>
><BR>
>I think we'd *both* rather have space-based solar power than any of the<BR>
>other choices. Heck, it is the *only* system that eliminates thermal<BR>
>pollutuion from *generating* the power (since that happens out in<BR>
>space).<BR>
<BR>
Yep.<BR>
Can't be to carefull about that heat polution, no sir.<BR>
<BR>
<snip of incredibly interesting nuclear reactor idea><BR>
<BR>
OK I can see that working. Now where to use it?<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:07:35 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
Ray Wiberg wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I have a couple of questions for the list, as I prepare the formal<BR>
> > THUDDD 12 proposal:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 1.  Where is the Spinward Marches IN Sector HQ ca. 1115?  GT:BTC<BR>
> > mentions that Sector HQ is on Efate.  Am I reading this correctly?<BR>
> <BR>
> According to  The TNE Regency Sourcebook p38 states that Regina is both<BR>
> the capital of the Regina Subsector and the Spinward Marches<BR>
<BR>
This agrees with the political capital information as given in GT:BTC<BR>
and (IIRC) earlier material.  I'm trying to figure out where the<BR>
Imperial Navy Sector HQ is (which doesn't have to be the same world as<BR>
the political capital).  My assumption is that the various sector<BR>
headquarters have a fair amount of leeway in ship procurement, based on<BR>
the strategic needs of their respective sectors.  Obviously, in this<BR>
case, a call for prototypes for a sector fleet would be issued from the<BR>
sector HQ.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, I'm just trying to make the call for prototypes as authentic as<BR>
possible.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:45:50 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Population Growth in 3I<BR>
<BR>
The question then becomes why the Imperium has such a large population.<BR>
However, all of those worlds which have moderate to high tech levels and<BR>
populations in the hundreds of thousands to hundreds of millions begin to<BR>
make sense.  Perhaps the high-pop worlds are ones where there is some strong<BR>
cultural, religious, or governmental incentives to have large families.<BR>
Comments?<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <mailto:sneadj@mindspring.com> <BR>
<BR>
That would make a whole bunch of sense. I seem to remember that (MT<BR>
Rebellion Source Book), the main focus of the various factions was the hi<BR>
pop + good tech worlds 'cause that's where the resources were (I guess due<BR>
to education, manufacturing infrastructure, taxation etc.), so I suppose<BR>
that it's certainly not due to Imperium policy (more hi pop worlds the<BR>
better in their eyes I guess). I would think that most mid pop but early<BR>
stellar+ worlds are that way through choice rather than any other reason<BR>
(especially ones near or in the T-norm range), but who knows! <BR>
<BR>
Although, like many quirks in Trav, IMHO hi pop worlds from a game mechanic<BR>
point of view were more due to die rolling than any planetary resources (ie<BR>
Size 2 Atmos 4 Hydro 3 but Pop A quite feasible). Though there were a bunch<BR>
of fixes for that around - GURPS Space had an excellent entry on Pop growth<BR>
and environmental factors. <BR>
<BR>
Vance's series about a tourism/nature park world with a low pop who aimed to<BR>
keep it that way (name escapes me - Ecce something?), covered all sorts of<BR>
pop growth foibles that a colony might encounter (they had a strict up or<BR>
your out policy where there were a set number of slots and if your grad<BR>
marks were no good then you had to leave the planet) . <BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:02:16 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller Languages<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/21/00 6:21:10 PM, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Here are the languages I have so far:<BR>
>Anglic<BR>
>Aslan<BR>
>Core<BR>
>Gvegh<BR>
>Gvegh-Aek<BR>
>Knithnour<BR>
>Oynprith<BR>
>Riftian<BR>
>Rim<BR>
>Taeksu<BR>
>Te-zlodh<BR>
>Transform<BR>
>Uedhu<BR>
>Vilani<BR>
>Zhodani<BR>
<BR>
 The Zhodani language is called Zdetl. The Hivers have only a written <BR>
language and a sign language; no vocal chords means no aural form.<BR>
 The Aslan written forms are called Trokh. I don't recall if this is <BR>
universal...<BR>
 The K'kree Module gives no distinct name for their language.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:02:50 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: TNE query<BR>
<BR>
On 02/20/00 at 11:04 PM,  Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org> said:<BR>
<BR>
>So with a TL-12 Sub Merchant, I can go 3 parsecs in 3 weeks, without a<BR>
>pitstop! Is this right or have I miscalculated horribly somewhere? <BR>
<BR>
Assuming maneuver and jump fuel are mutually exchangable then your<BR>
calculations are indeed correct.  You don't *have* to make that<BR>
assumption if you don't want to, of course.  Heck, you don't even<BR>
have to allow jumpping to empty hexes if you don't want to. <g><BR>
<BR>
> This may seem a silly question, but it has bugged me for years!<BR>
>You couldn't get away with that in CT.<BR>
<BR>
No, it's not a silly question, and you're right about CT. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:08:43 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Reprints<BR>
<BR>
On 02/21/00 at 01:35 PM,  "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Should start shipping by the end of this week :-)<BR>
<BR>
>Keep tabs on the reprints - http://www.downport.com/news/ <BR>
<BR>
I'm anxiously awaiting shipment! <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:19:13 -0900<BR>
From: Richard Martin <asrlm@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
Big Snip<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Well, to deliberately pick an emotionally-laden example, if a majority of<BR>
> >Americans voted to make homosexuality a crime, or a majority of Germans<BR>
> >voted to eliminate the Jewish problem, would that make those actions right?<BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
Snip<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> And as for your emotionally charged example there are quite a few people who<BR>
> believe that at least the first should be a crime. (Hell in half the states<BR>
> and all the armed services it already is, even though it's not heavily<BR>
> enforced.) And of course there's a minority, but still quite a few people<BR>
> who not only think that it should be legal but that homosexual marriage<BR>
> should be legal.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
So Terry, where did you get this information?? In actuality, only a<BR>
handful of states is "Homosexuality" considered a crime. What is<BR>
unfortunate that bigotry is not condsidered a crime... What you are<BR>
probably are referinq to is several sex acts such as sodomy, which is a<BR>
crime regardless who performs it, either hetero or homo.. It is just not<BR>
usually enforced.<BR>
<BR>
it is not illegal to be a homosexual in the armed services if you<BR>
abstain from sex..<BR>
 <BR>
> Terry C<BR>
> All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
> Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Richard Martin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think, therefor I am, therefor I must be... Still here<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:43:18 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Nukes in Space!<BR>
<BR>
 >>Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.  Typical designs for space craft<BR>
 >>using fusion planets are not meant to enter atmosphere.<BR>
 >I guess the streamlining/airframe option for spacecraft is<BR>
 >really all about looks then if none of these ships are suposed<BR>
 >to enter the atmosphere. <grin><BR>
<BR>
Style man...it's where it's at!<BR>
Low tech interplanetary ships are build in orbit and have planetary <BR>
landers.  If they are high enough tech to land, and take off again, then <BR>
they probably have nice fusion reactors.<BR>
<BR>
 >A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
 >directly. It generates heat which transfers to the cooling liquid<BR>
 >which becomes steam which drives a turbine attached to an<BR>
 >alternator/generator. This steam then needs to be cooled so that<BR>
 >it can be used to cool the reactor core again. Yes you can radiate<BR>
 >that heat to space but you still need coolant for the power<BR>
 >plant to work.<BR>
<BR>
This much has been clear to me since I visited the SM1 when was 10....<BR>
You want to cool the steam, run a loop of pipe out a bit to a cooling tank, <BR>
and then pump the nice cool water back toward the reactor.  You would <BR>
probably have to heat the tank to keep the water from freezing.<BR>
<BR>
 >>You only have to shield one side as well. The side facing the rest of the<BR>
 >>ship.  The reactor sits out from the rest of the ship.<BR>
 >Well I was thinking in terms of the other traveller starship<BR>
 >components that are all accesible in the ship for maintanance<BR>
 >purposes.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller ships use fusion.  If you want a fission plant inside, then it <BR>
get's mucking huge.<BR>
Simpler engineering to place it outside.  Maintenance is done by remote units.<BR>
<BR>
 >>This is the kind of stuff you run into out in boonies of Traveller<BR>
 >>space.  It's pretty cheap and low tech.<BR>
 >>"Ya, we're Astronauts!  Check out our ship.  It can make the run to the<BR>
 >>Asteroid Belt in just under six months!"<BR>
<BR>
 >Actually the original premise is that these plants would be in use<BR>
 >in the Imperium at lower than the published minimum fusion<BR>
 >plant requirements. (originally it was about using fission plants<BR>
 >in that role)<BR>
<BR>
Not all ships are streamlined.  Look at the Orrimot, with it's hamster cages.<BR>
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard/sara/sara5018.html<BR>
<BR>
Hell, even the clunky old Orrmot uses Fusion.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
travhead.geo@yahoo.com -- Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:07:14 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Gashidda & Dingir<BR>
<BR>
>From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death<BR>
already  ...<BR>
>I know that the _Imperium_ game listed Gashidda as the provincial<BR>
>capital, but that doesn't make sense for several reasons.  The "province"<BR>
>was what would become the Solomani Rim sector.  Why have the sector<BR>
>capital on the very frontier, on the far side of the Vegan district?  I<BR>
<BR>
  Do we know how big the province was? It might have been small, or a pie-<BR>
shape including a section of border, which makes some sense if it was a<BR>
"frontier province" functioning as a permanent border defence (limes?).<BR>
<BR>
>Meanwhile, CT Supplement 10 lists *Dingir* as the Vilani sector capital,<BR>
>which contradicts _Imperium_ and has almost the same problems as<BR>
>Gashidda.  My take on this is that Dingir became the sector capital<BR>
>*after* the first couple of Interstellar Wars.  At some point the Vilani<BR>
>governor would have realized that the Terrans were a real threat and <BR>
>decide that he needed to be close to the action.<BR>
<BR>
  Or if Gashidda had been the true provincial capital then Dingir might have<BR>
been the capital only briefly after Gashidda fell, and the fall of Dingir <BR>
(which then began its career as a Terran Navy base, ROM capital, etc.) and<BR>
the "collapse" of the Imperium followed shortly thereafter.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:52:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:03:33 PST<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1950<BR>
><BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>>You have to keep in mind the fact that the *total* waste produced by a<BR>
>>nuclear plant during it's *entire* lifetime would easily fir into a<BR>
>>medium sized stadium *without* taking any steps to concentrate it.<BR>
>>Heck, it takes up less space than the ore you mined to get the<BR>
>>fissionables! And if you wait about 300 years, the *ore* would be more<BR>
>>radioactive than the waste.<BR>
><BR>
> but it's those 300 years when the waste is more radioactive that are the<BR>
> concern. I personally wouldn't want to live my life next door to a stadium<BR>
> sized<BR>
> pile of yellowcake either. Perhaps I'm overreacting though. If the old AEC<BR>
> felt it was safe who am I to doubt.(Atomic energy commision, since<BR>
> renamed the Department of Energy, with a long history of publicly<BR>
> underestimating risks regarding exposure to radioactivity.)<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, since the decline in radioactivity is fastest at the<BR>
start, we actually *could* do something along the lines of encase it in<BR>
glass blocks, and stack the blocks in one of the desert areas where it<BR>
hasn't rained in centuries (yes, there are such places). Place a fence<BR>
with warning signs around it ("If you cross this fence, you will die"<BR>
in multiple languages) add a few guard patrolling the perimeter and we<BR>
could ignore it until the folks arguing about the "best" storage site<BR>
finally agree on "good enough". (By which time the stuff won't be<BR>
radioactive enough to worry about, given the current rates of<BR>
progress). <BR>
<BR>
We have *more* than enough methods that are adequate, and the volume of<BR>
material to process isn't all that big. But nobody *wants* agree (for<BR>
one thing, establishing a storage site is the *last* thing the<BR>
anti-nuke types want since they used the *lack* of one as grounds for<BR>
denying a lot of permits!)<BR>
<BR>
I find it despicable that the anti-nuke types have used tactics that<BR>
actually result in *increased* risks bercause of all the waste piling<BR>
up in places never intended to do more than store stuff until it could<BR>
be shipped for permanent disposal, or for reprocessing.<BR>
<BR>
>>Compare that to the megatons a year of toxic sludge, fly ash, and slag<BR>
>>a coal fired plant produces. And they are toxic forever.<BR>
><BR>
> All to true alas.<BR>
<BR>
And we aren't doing very well at disposing this either. <BR>
<BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>>Actually, for an "orbit-to-orbit" ship (ie one that never lands) the<BR>
>>"fuel efficiency" (Isp) is more important than the mass of the engine.<BR>
>>Being able to thrust at .1 g for *weeks* gets you their a lot faster<BR>
>>than boosting at 6 g for minutes.<BR>
><BR>
> Perhaps I'm being dense but isn't it a question of total posible<BR>
> velocity change? Which IIRC *is* dependant in part on the<BR>
> mass of the ship. Which means that a very massy engine<BR>
> that generates more thrust could be a less efficient alternative<BR>
> to a lighter engine that produces less thrust. Particularly with<BR>
> small payloads(because engine mass is a greater percentage<BR>
> of ship mass.) Am I missing something?<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Total velocity change depends on the Isp and the mass *ratio* of<BR>
the ship. So if an engine weighs 50% more, but has twice the Isp, you<BR>
are better off with the heavy engine, because it'll use less *fuel*,<BR>
and thus the *total* (starting) mass of the ship will be lower.<BR>
<BR>
Vt = Ve * ln(fueled mass/empty mass)<BR>
Ve = Isp * g (ie 9.8 meters/sec^2 or 32.16 ft/sec^2, it's a conversion<BR>
     factor, not an acceleration)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>> <snip><BR>
>>><BR>
>>>>But there are a *lot* of space related things we've been *capable* of<BR>
>>>>doing since the mid 60s, but that have been moldering away forgotten<BR>
>>>>ever since the space cutbacks.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> I cannot argue with that.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I think we'd *both* rather have space-based solar power than any of the<BR>
>>other choices. Heck, it is the *only* system that eliminates thermal<BR>
>>pollutuion from *generating* the power (since that happens out in<BR>
>>space).<BR>
><BR>
> Yep.<BR>
> Can't be to carefull about that heat polution, no sir.<BR>
<BR>
Well, considering that 90% of the energy "input" (fuel) of a power<BR>
plant winds up as environmental heat *before* doing useful work, it's<BR>
actually a valid consideration in the long run.<BR>
<BR>
> <snip of incredibly interesting nuclear reactor idea><BR>
><BR>
> OK I can see that working. Now where to use it?<BR>
<BR>
Well, as I said, it'd make a nice heating system... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1954<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 22 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1955<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1952<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Miniatures photo page, let me try this again...<BR>
Whoops- forgot to add URL<BR>
Population Projections - Current Resources<BR>
Re: Traveller Languages<BR>
Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
Re: Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
RE: cooling ships<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:08:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Lots of message deleted<BR>
>>>>A regular citizen might be charge a specific fine, or sent to jail<BR>
>>>>or be executed. But only a Noble could have title and lands stripped from<BR>
>>>>him/her, leaving family destitute and perhaps even under sentence<BR>
>>>>themselves. (There's a name for this kind of punishment, where the<BR>
>>>>descendents of a criminal are also punished for his crime, but I forget<BR>
> what<BR>
>>>>it is.)<BR>
>><BR>
>>"Corruption of Blood". It's specificly mentioned in the US<BR>
>>Constitution.<BR>
>><BR>
> Thank you Leonard. I thought that it was specifically prohibited here in the<BR>
> U.S., but I couldn't remember if it was Constitutionally prohibited.<BR>
<BR>
Another old legal idea that players may encounter is the "bill of<BR>
attainder". An oversimplified explanation is that where such are legal,<BR>
the government can, in effect, make it illegal to be you. <BR>
<BR>
So you are automatically guilty, and your actions don't matter, except<BR>
to the extent that you might get them *more* pissed at you. <BR>
<BR>
I'm sure that creative refs can have fun with this idea. *Especially*,<BR>
if Imperial law somehow fails to address the point (very convenient for<BR>
those situations when you can come up with a concrete charge against a<BR>
"problem". Or where you don't want to make the charges public).<BR>
<BR>
Other things that the Constitution forbids:<BR>
<BR>
Ex post facto laws. I.E. "retroactive laws"... making something you did<BR>
illegal *after* you did it, and still being able to arrest and convict<BR>
you of violating that law. I doubt that the Imperium will allow these<BR>
as they make things just *too* uncertain.<BR>
<BR>
Not being allowed to confront your accusers...<BR>
<BR>
Secret trials<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:33:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
> directly.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it *is*. At least if your reactor uses electrostatic<BR>
confinement! <BR>
<BR>
But that sort of reactor is rather large and somewhat fragile. But it's<BR>
at least as likely to be practical as any other. Check Analog a few<BR>
months back. One of the science columns tells you how to build such a<BR>
reactor. It won't achieve "breakeven" (produce more power than it takes<BR>
to keep it running), but it'll produce *lots* of fusion neutrons..<BR>
<BR>
>>You only have to shield one side as well. The side facing the rest of the<BR>
>>ship.  The reactor sits out from the rest of the ship.<BR>
><BR>
> Well I was thinking in terms of the other traveller starship<BR>
> components that are all accesible in the ship for maintanance<BR>
> purposes.<BR>
<BR>
So you put them on the same side of the shielding as the crew. This may<BR>
have the reactor in the *nose* of the ship, though for a NERVA type<BR>
design it'd be in the tail. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:12:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:15:46 +1100<BR>
>>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
>>Subject: Re : Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
>><BR>
>>DaveShayne wrote :-<BR>
>><with regard to nuclear plants> :-<BR>
>>> You still waste the space occupied by the containment building<BR>
>>> for the forseable future.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Not really ; the core and the primary heat exchange loop constituents<BR>
>>need to be recycled. Fusion reactors will have the same problem - the<BR>
>>structural elements will degrade from neutron bombardment, with time.<BR>
><BR>
> This recycling of reactor components. Does it occur while they<BR>
> are still "hot" from fifty years of being bombarded or do you<BR>
> wait untill they "cool off"; however long that takes.<BR>
<BR>
There are considerations both ways. I'd tend to think that recovery of<BR>
useful, shortlived isotopes might be worth "hot" processing. But I've<BR>
got no real handle on the economics.<BR>
<BR>
>>The problem with disposing of nuclear waste is 'NIMBY' waxed large.<BR>
>>Existing proposed solutions (vitrification into Synroc[TM]) or storage<BR>
>>in salt domes, etc. would achieve confinement for several milennia.<BR>
><BR>
> Yup It's NIMBY all right. Would you like all of the high level nuclear<BR>
> waste from the Imperium in *your* backyard? We're looking for volunteers.<BR>
> Any takers?<BR>
<BR>
The whole Imperium? No. The whole US? Sure. The whole planet, maybe.<BR>
<BR>
>>The bottom line is :- How much risk is a society prepared to take?<BR>
>>We drive cars and use electrical appliances in our houses routinely -<BR>
>>they are far more likely to kill you than a reactor accident.<BR>
><BR>
> I think I've already said that nuclear plants are mostly safe. I'm<BR>
> arguing about longterm problems of nuclear power/waste management.<BR>
<BR>
Still, the risks involved aren't all that big. They are just *new*<BR>
risks. Ones people aren't used to. <BR>
<BR>
>><on Leonard's miniature reactor> :-<BR>
>>A radiothermal generator is probably a better idea at this end of the<BR>
>>power range. With current or very near future technology :-<BR>
>><BR>
>>Plutonium 238 :- 73W/kg, halflife 87 years (US space program, since the<BR>
>>1960s)<BR>
>>Curium 244 :- 534W/kg, halflife 13 years (an interesting candidate).<BR>
>><BR>
>>NB : The masses above do not include a heat engine to convert heat into<BR>
>>usable work.<BR>
><BR>
> I was thinking that Leonards microfission would produce a little more<BR>
> power than that. (But a specific power level was never specified so...)<BR>
<BR>
The micro reactor uses less material for a given power output, and is<BR>
easily refueled. Alas, RTGs are a bitch to refuel.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:41:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> This would be a *real* lousy post. You'd have a comm link to the<BR>
>> mainworld, but with multiple *hour* timelag. So you could listen to<BR>
>> radio or watch "TV". But you couldn't *talk* to anybody except the rest<BR>
>> of the station crew.<BR>
><BR>
>     Depends on the moon.  If it's a moon of the same planet, the<BR>
> timelag will be negligible (it's a little over a second to our own,<BR>
> for instance).  Let's see...a one hour lag means a distance of<BR>
> approximately 8.32 AU, which is about equivalent to the distance from<BR>
> the Sun to halfway between Jupiter and Saturn, right?<BR>
<BR>
Nope. You forgot that comm-lag is the *round trip* distance. That is,<BR>
the minimum time between sending a signal and getting a response, which<BR>
requires covering the distance *twice* (once outbound, once inbound). <BR>
<BR>
So I get about 3.6 AU (1 AU = 150 Gm = 1.5e11 m). <BR>
<BR>
30 min at 3e8 m/s = 5.4e11 m<BR>
5.4e11/1.5e11 = 3.6 AU<BR>
<BR>
So if that lag is for closest approach, you'd be at 4.6 AU from the Sun<BR>
or out near Jupiter. If it's for longest, then you only have to be at<BR>
2.6 AU, or out around Mars. <BR>
<BR>
> The only reason I can see for launching waste that far would be to<BR>
> try to reprocess it for use on colonies/stations out there... which<BR>
> certainly lends a somewhat amusing air to the whole scheme.  ("Give<BR>
> us your...wretched refuse" indeed! <g>)<BR>
<BR>
Well, I figured folks would want it well out of the esily habitable<BR>
part of the system. I was actually figuring *beyond* Saturn. Also, in<BR>
the case of chemical wastes, keeping it cold extends the life of the<BR>
containers, and reduces changes in the material. <BR>
<BR>
By the time space travel is reliable and routine enough to make the<BR>
more timid folks comfortable with launching dangerous wastes, Luna will<BR>
have enough people and industry on it that they may not *want* the<BR>
stuff. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:20:50 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1952<BR>
<BR>
> From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
> >>><BR>
> I can't find any other references to the respective<BR>
> TL in any of my material (an incomplete collection to be sure) although<BR>
> the MT Imperial Encyclopedia suggests (but does not explicitly require)<BR>
> the TL scheme you propose. Personally I'd give the Terrans TL 11 at<BR>
> least for computers (resulting in ships of same maximum mass if somewhat<BR>
> less capable.)<BR>
> <<<<BR>
> <BR>
> Make it lower, as it also shows a) the ramping up of Terran tech, and b)<BR>
makes<BR>
> it more intresting.<BR>
> <BR>
> And I do agree on Terran Computer tech.<BR>
<BR>
There was about fourteen years between First Contact and the Interstellar<BR>
War, in which the Terrans would have been reverse engineering everything<BR>
they could lay their hands on, so it's quite likely that they would have<BR>
had some TL 11 gear.<BR>
<BR>
I think it's also quite likely that most of their stuff would be TL 10,<BR>
which is given somewhere as existing around AD 2100.  <BR>
<BR>
If that was the case the Terrans would have only been one TL behind the<BR>
Vilani, and not even that much in all areas.  If we assume that Terran<BR>
industrial production was at least slightly superior to that available to<BR>
the Vilani in the area of the war, and/or that the Vilani were functioning<BR>
on relatively long supply lines, then it could be possible that the Vilani<BR>
could be defeated.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:10:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> Or you could even have a small contigent of folks based on or near (in<BR>
> a space hab) the moon in question and have them use a small "tug" to<BR>
> intercept incoming loads and dump them in the right spot on the moon<BR>
> (makes it easier to get stuff later if you have good records of just<BR>
> what is located where).<BR>
> <BR>
> This would be a *real* lousy post. You'd have a comm link to the<BR>
> mainworld, but with multiple *hour* timelag. So you could listen to<BR>
> radio or watch "TV". But you couldn't *talk* to anybody except the rest<BR>
> of the station crew.<BR>
<BR>
The TV show along these lines was called "Quark", and was mostly a Star<BR>
Trek sendup.  I would dearly love to see it again.  There are a couple of<BR>
fan websites out there.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
(My email works again.  Hooray!)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:04:48 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: Miniatures photo page, let me try this again...<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about yesterday. It appears I was disconnected before I could upload<BR>
the final update to my Traveller starships page. All the images were there,<BR>
you just couldn't see them. Anyway, all of the Trav starships are up now.<BR>
Future uploads will be some grav tanks and unidentified stareships on the SF<BR>
Misc. page.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:08:13 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: Whoops- forgot to add URL<BR>
<BR>
Must remember to drink coffee before posting next time.<BR>
<BR>
My miniatures page is at <BR>
    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
<BR>
for anyone that may have missed the original post.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:26:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Population Projections - Current Resources<BR>
<BR>
In doing background for the Terrans Vs. The Vilani I came across two<BR>
great sites for world population projection<BR>
<BR>
1 http://library.ncsu.edu/marion/AJT-0327 - has population projections<BR>
to 2150<BR>
<BR>
2 http://www.undp.org/popin/  - United Nations population information<BR>
(apparently some funding cuts have reduced the available material since<BR>
I last checked.  I may have figures somewhere if anyone is interested.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 07:49:46 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Languages<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 2/21/00 6:21:10 PM, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Here are the languages I have so far:<BR>
>> Anglic<BR>
>> Aslan<BR>
>> Core<BR>
>> Gvegh<BR>
>> Gvegh-Aek<BR>
>> Knithnour<BR>
>> Oynprith<BR>
>> Riftian<BR>
>> Rim<BR>
>> Taeksu<BR>
>> Te-zlodh<BR>
>> Transform<BR>
>> Uedhu<BR>
>> Vilani<BR>
>> Zhodani<BR>
> <BR>
> The Zhodani language is called Zdetl. The Hivers have only a written<BR>
> language and a sign language; no vocal chords means no aural form.<BR>
> The Aslan written forms are called Trokh. I don't recall if this is<BR>
> universal...<BR>
> The K'kree Module gives no distinct name for their language.<BR>
<BR>
According the Traveler's Digest 18, there is a distinction in Trokh between<BR>
female and male script, but also in the speech as well. Some words exist in<BR>
the female speech but not in the male speech and vice versa.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:37:53 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
I guess the mechanics of CT are what's killing me here.  (It's what I<BR>
know and love, quirks and all, so I probably won't be changing any time<BR>
soon.)<BR>
<BR>
Under high guard rules you can build a particle accelerator at TL 8 that<BR>
weighs 5500 tons.  However, your maximum hull size as limited by maximum<BR>
computer size is<BR>
<BR>
1,000 tons at TL 8<BR>
4,000 tons at TL 9<BR>
10,000 tons at TL 10<BR>
50,000 tons at TL 11<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the Terrans hit TL 10 very quickly after 1st contact i.e. the<BR>
"oh my god there is a huge empire out there syndrome."  You could start<BR>
building halfway decent spinal mounted ships at that point 4500 tons at<BR>
tl 10.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately you couldn't build a tender big enough to haul it around<BR>
until you hit TL 11 (about 2 years after the 1st war ends)<BR>
<BR>
I'm thinking the Vilani could have used J2 Tenders in the 50K ton range<BR>
with 5 - 10K battle riders as the mainstay of the fleet.<BR>
<BR>
The Tenders are kept away from the fray maybe protected by a strategic<BR>
reserve of say 1/3 of the carried vessels.   The bulk of the fleet are<BR>
battle riders that if captured do not have J2 drives to reverse engineer<BR>
(The Vilani seem pretty paranoid about this).  If things go badly the<BR>
Tenders leave and the riders are on their own.  (Note refueling would be<BR>
a priority under this scenario and dedicated tanker ships as well.)<BR>
<BR>
This puts the Terrans more on even footing with the Vilani as far as<BR>
hull size goes, at least at the beginning of the war.<BR>
<BR>
It also puts the capture of a Tender at the top of the UN priority list<BR>
(oh the adventure possibilities).<BR>
<BR>
Comments welcomed.<BR>
<BR>
- -Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:53:08 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>At 06:04 PM 2/21/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>>At 18:39 20.02.00 -0800, Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>ObTrav: Not a damn thing. :^/<BR>
>><BR>
>>Hellooo? Have we got some kind of moderator here? Thank you.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, it's called adulthood. We're all big kids who can control ourselves.<BR>
>In my time on the TML, there have only been two people who got to the point<BR>
>of invoking the hatred of the entire group.<BR>
<BR>
And one of them even said something worthwhile...once.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 08:52:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water <BR>
<BR>
At 12:19 PM 2/21/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 8 Stand behind the toilet as far as you can, and quickly<BR>
>     lift both lids.  The now-clean cat will rocket out of the toilet,<BR>
>     and run outside where he will dry himself.<BR>
<BR>
8b Alternatively, the cat will hit relativistic speeds getting under the<BR>
couch, where it will roll about in the dust bunnies and corn chip<BR>
fragments. It will emerge an hour later, looking like some sort of bag-cat<BR>
coming off a three-day catnip bender.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Egotist: a person more interested in himself than in me.<BR>
- -- Ambrose Bierce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:23:01 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Radiation (was: Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
Josh W. Spencer writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> If you fuse two deuterium nuclei you get one helium nuclei and one alpha<BR>
> particle. Easily stopped by PAPER. I'm sure the more advanced fusion<BR>
> reactions have a little more radioactivity involved, but overall, fusion<BR>
> reactors will output much, much less radioactivity than fission types.<BR>
> IIRC, nothing in the gamma radiation spectra.<BR>
<BR>
Snort.  It is possible for D-D fusion to produce a single nucleus of 4He (aka an alpha particle) plus gamma rays, but the most common forms of D-D fusion<BR>
will result in D+D+D = He + p + n + multiple gamma rays.<BR>
<BR>
Note that lithium deuteride fusion is theoretically capable of being very<BR>
clean -- it uses a neutron catalyst to turn Li + D into 2 x 4He plus gamma.<BR>
You're only limited by escaping neutrons, which unfortunately are not going<BR>
to be rare.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:02:51 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 15:48 21.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[spaclings/space reefs]<BR>
>> Yes, I remember that one, too.  But I think that was more "space fantasy"<BR>
>> since it assumed a lot of "super-bio-tech" like cellular fusion reactors, <BR>
>> etc.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, it *started* by assuming a universe where the Big Bang theory was<BR>
>*wrong* and the "Continous Creation" theory was *right*. <BR>
<BR>
But cellular bio-fusion-reactors? A little bit too hard to imagine for my<BR>
personal taste. <BR>
 No, what I was looking for was a bit more "conservative": Life as we know<BR>
it, but ertrapolated into a future where some if it has managed to adapt to<BR>
hard vacuum, zero-G and hard radiation. (Would be a damn good enemy race<BR>
fpor a TV show, don't you aggree? :-) )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:55:02 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Can someone remove them, please?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:40 21.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>----- Original Message -----<BR>
>From: "Ingo Heinscher" <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
>> >   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything<BR>
>> >    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."<BR>
>><BR>
>> "Just because some people have said something in the past that doesn't<BR>
>mean<BR>
>> it's any wiser than things people say or think in the present. Actually,<BR>
>> it's mostly the other way round."<BR>
><BR>
>"Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
But there's a difference between "learning from the past" and "uncriticlly<BR>
taking over some dubious quotes", isn't it?<BR>
<BR>
(Okay, this is OT, but since we are all big kids who can control<BR>
ourseleves, who cares?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:58:23 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
At 15:31 21.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> At 12:17 20.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>>>In mail you write:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>> At 20:01 19.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>>>obTrav: how do various systems treat waste dumping?<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>Placing it on a moon in the outer system won't cost any more than using<BR>
>>>jump. Probably *less* since you can use automated drones, or just a big<BR>
>>>mass driver for transport. Garbage doesn't *care* if it's in transit<BR>
>>>for 20 or 50 years. And it'll be easier to get it to the right place. <BR>
>><BR>
>> But as you stated above, a mass driver would lead to an orbit. Thinking in<BR>
>> terms of thousands of years, it would possibly come back.<BR>
><BR>
>Not if you aim the loads to crash land on that moon, or include just<BR>
>enough automation and thrusters to soft-land the load.<BR>
<BR>
This is a contradiction to some of the arguments brought against "dropping<BR>
it into the star".  <BR>
?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:04:09<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 10:23 PM 2/21/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>I have a couple of questions for the list, as I prepare the formal<BR>
>THUDDD 12 proposal:<BR>
><BR>
>1.  Where is the Spinward Marches IN Sector HQ ca. 1115?  GT:BTC<BR>
>mentions that Sector HQ is on Efate.  Am I reading this correctly?<BR>
<BR>
Mora is the Capital of the Domain of Deneb (p. BTC115).  Regina is listed<BR>
only as the Subsector Capital. Efate is the HQ of the 213th Fleet. Oddly,<BR>
the commander of the 213th (a Bwap of all things!), is also listed as<BR>
having been made Sector Admiral in 1118.<BR>
<BR>
Rhylanor/Macene (2612) is a better candidate for Fleet HQ. The description<BR>
describes a system completely under Naval control, and the map shows the<BR>
system's name as Depot. The SecAdm probably maintains Efate as a forward<BR>
HQ, while the main administrative machinery is at Macene.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:53:23 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: cooling ships<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Assuming that a spaceship is a perfect radiating body and a<BR>
>space background temperature of 4 K, a 200 ton far trader under<BR>
>full thrust generates about 60 megawatts.  To radiate this<BR>
>amount of heat would require a skin temperature of about 700<BR>
>Celsius.  No ship is going to be a perfect radiator, so the<BR>
>actual temperature will be higher.  This is regardless of the<BR>
>type of cooling system the powerplant uses.  All that can do is<BR>
>get the heat to the skin of the ship rather than heating the<BR>
>whole ship up on the way to the skin.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Is the 60 megawatts mentioned above the electrical power<BR>
	output only, or does it include the waste heat and the<BR>
	energy being carried away by the reaction mass?  IMTU,<BR>
	insulation of the power plant and maneuver drive are<BR>
	stupidly efficient, and I assume that most of the extra<BR>
	heat leaves with the propellant and actual electrical<BR>
	generation is relatively low.<BR>
<BR>
>Basically, if you are thinking of worrying about cooling in<BR>
>Traveller, don't.<BR>
<BR>
	Good advice for a number of areas.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<furiously waving his hands><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:39:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
> Mora is the Capital of the Domain of Deneb (p. BTC115).  Regina is listed<BR>
> only as the Subsector Capital. Efate is the HQ of the 213th Fleet. Oddly,<BR>
> the commander of the 213th (a Bwap of all things!), is also listed as<BR>
> having been made Sector Admiral in 1118.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rhylanor/Macene (2612) is a better candidate for Fleet HQ. The description<BR>
> describes a system completely under Naval control, and the map shows the<BR>
> system's name as Depot. The SecAdm probably maintains Efate as a forward<BR>
> HQ, while the main administrative machinery is at Macene.<BR>
<BR>
Macene (Depot in the Regency) is also home to the Naval War College (at<BR>
least the closest one in the Marches)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:25:28 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
<BR>
Hi.  You note plausibly habitable planets in main sequence stars of "solid<BR>
KGF."  What does "solid" mean?  While including the whole range of G seems<BR>
reasonable, is it also reasonable to include the whole range of K or F?  I<BR>
had thought only late F or early K were within the habitable range.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hm...using corrected values, I ran some path computations for a set of<BR>
>stars reachable by 'jumps' of 7.7 light-years (per 2300AD).  Interestingly<BR>
>enough, it appears that there are only 966 stars which can be reached in<BR>
>this way (this may reflect missing data in hipparcos, some dim red stars<BR>
>might provide bridges, most of the cutoff points are at 60-80 lightyears).<BR>
>Total number of plausibly habitable stars (main sequence, solid KGF) is<BR>
>184 (close binaries not stripped).  Total star systems is 7425<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:52:18 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry writes:<BR>
> Hi.  You note plausibly habitable planets in main sequence stars of "solid<BR>
> KGF."  What does "solid" mean?  While including the whole range of G seems<BR>
> reasonable, is it also reasonable to include the whole range of K or F?  I<BR>
> had thought only late F or early K were within the habitable range.<BR>
<BR>
I left out K/M class stars, mostly.  It's not obvious exactly what range of<BR>
stars can have habitable worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, on checking the count of stars within X light-years, its pretty<BR>
obvious a lot of dim red dwarves have been left out if they're more than 50 ly<BR>
distant (should be about 8x as many stars within 100 ly as within 50, there's<BR>
more like 5x as many stars listed).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:04:03 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 02:37:09 -0500 (EST), "Terry Carlino"<BR>
<carlino@home.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: Not a problem in the 3I. The Imperium owns what it owns. I suspect<BR>
>that the Emperor owns all Imperial lands and all of the lands given in fief<BR>
>to all of the members of the peerage. He also owns vast amounts of stock in<BR>
>the Megacorps.<BR>
<BR>
"Vast amounts" perhaps in terms of absolute number of shares, but<BR>
in the published information, it's generally not above 1% or 2%<BR>
of outstanding shares.<BR>
<BR>
>            (There's a name for this kind of punishment, where the<BR>
>descendents of a criminal are also punished for his crime, but I forget what<BR>
>it is.)<BR>
<BR>
"Corruption of blood", I believe, is the usual term.  But your<BR>
example, of total confiscation that leaves the family destitute,<BR>
doesn't really qualify - a case can be made that it is strictly<BR>
to penalize the criminal noble, and not the family; the family<BR>
can, if it has the sticktoitiveness required, rebuild their lives<BR>
and lifestyles.  If, however, the punishment was written so as to<BR>
specifically bar the family and descendants from certain<BR>
activities and status, _that_ would qualify as corruption of<BR>
blood.<BR>
<BR>
As a side note, the Constitution of the United States outright<BR>
prohibits the Congress from legislatively cancelling someone's<BR>
civil rights (bill of attainder), but prohibits corruption of<BR>
blood (and forfeiture) beyond the life of the person so affected<BR>
- - and that only in cases of treason.  Moreover, none of the<BR>
Amendments to the Constitution explicitly impose any further<BR>
restriction on Forfeiture or Corruption of Blood - so it could be<BR>
read that while if you are convicted of treason, your family and<BR>
descendants can't be stripped of or barred from citizenship or<BR>
holding office or whatever in the United States - but if you're<BR>
convicted of Grand Theft Auto, they _can_.  It wouldn't happen;<BR>
it would be overturned on Amendments V and XIV, but it could be<BR>
argued that as written, those Amendments _don't_ bar it.<BR>
<BR>
(Examples like this are the strongest arguments I can think of to<BR>
indicate that when ruling on Constitutional matters, the _intent_<BR>
of the drafters of the relevant sections _must_ be taken into<BR>
account, based on other [non-Constitution] information<BR>
available.)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1955<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1956</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 22 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1956<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
human habitable planets<BR>
Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: A Real World<BR>
Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Cracking water for hydorgen<BR>
Vs: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re: passport and DL's<BR>
Nuclear Fission<BR>
"true" fusion rockets?<BR>
TC vs. ZS<BR>
Re: Passport and DL's<BR>
Re: Passport and DL<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: A real world example<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: Passports and DLs<BR>
Terran Superiority<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:30:44 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm... a subject on the parameters of human habitable planets might make for<BR>
interesting discussion.<BR>
<BR>
stars are definitely missing, without a doubt.  The Gliese, Royal Astronomy,<BR>
and other pre-Hipparcos parallax catalogs are only good to what 20 parsecs?<BR>
Beyond that Hipparcos has better data but the mission did not measure dim M<BR>
stars.  OTOH, if one is only interested in human habitable planets, then the<BR>
data are probably sufficient.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A catalog of nearby stars, used to be free starmaps.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Eric Henry writes:<BR>
>> Hi.  You note plausibly habitable planets in main sequence stars of<BR>
"solid<BR>
>> KGF."  What does "solid" mean?  While including the whole range of G<BR>
seems<BR>
>> reasonable, is it also reasonable to include the whole range of K or F?<BR>
I<BR>
>> had thought only late F or early K were within the habitable range.<BR>
><BR>
>I left out K/M class stars, mostly.  It's not obvious exactly what range of<BR>
>stars can have habitable worlds.<BR>
><BR>
>Incidentally, on checking the count of stars within X light-years, its<BR>
pretty<BR>
>obvious a lot of dim red dwarves have been left out if they're more than 50<BR>
ly<BR>
>distant (should be about 8x as many stars within 100 ly as within 50,<BR>
there's<BR>
>more like 5x as many stars listed).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:30:48 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
I have Isaac Asimov's _Habitable Planets for Man_ a boook based on Stephen<BR>
Dole's RAND study _Planet's for Man_.  It discusses what planets would be<BR>
suitable for human life "as is", without need for ecosystem modifications or<BR>
handwaving, and what stars might hold these planets.  However, the book is<BR>
over 30 years old.<BR>
<BR>
Is there any more modern data which would suggest what stars might hold<BR>
habitable planets?  I am looking for specific spectral classes ( g0 through<BR>
g9 is obvious ).  In addition, what distance between binaries would allow<BR>
the formation of a habitalbe planet?  any?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:36:37 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/20/00 2:09 AM, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Apologies for the OT question, but does anyone know if a Mac LC will<BR>
> run MacOS 7.5.2?<BR>
 You're gonna run Trav software? Not OT then! ;) Seriously, Hypercleats says<BR>
it should run up to Mac OS 7.6.1.  provided it has enough RAM. Good luck!<BR>
BZA<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:16:21 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
At 12:30 PM -0800 2/22/00, Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
>Is there any more modern data which would suggest what stars might hold<BR>
>habitable planets?  I am looking for specific spectral classes ( g0 through<BR>
>g9 is obvious ).<BR>
<BR>
One really doesn't know.  The main question people talk about<BR>
is M Dwarves and the fact that to be close enough to be in the<BR>
habital zone you have to be tidally locked.  If you are locked<BR>
into something other than a 1:1 resonance (like Mercury which<BR>
is a 3:2 resonance and rotates 3 times every two orbits) then<BR>
you are generally OK.  If you are in a 1:1 resonance the<BR>
latest modelling indicates that it is quite possible for<BR>
the atmosphere to distribut heat around the planet.  The<BR>
the issue of all the water collecting on the dark side<BR>
is a significant one.<BR>
<BR>
>In addition, what distance between binaries would allow<BR>
>the formation of a habitalbe planet?  any?<BR>
<BR>
As long as the stars are close enough together to act as one<BR>
star (something like less than 1/5 the distance to the plantary<BR>
orbit apart) or far enough out that they don't disturbe the orbit<BR>
too much (something like 5 times the distance of the planetary<BR>
orbit) then the orbit can be stable.  As far as the habital<BR>
zone goes, if they are close together, you calc the habital<BR>
zone based on the combined insolation of the two stars if they<BR>
were one source.  If they are far apart, you can generally<BR>
ignore the distant one.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller: First In does a decent job of representing<BR>
all this....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:18:42 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: A Real World<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/22/00 3:01:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Ex post facto laws. I.E. "retroactive laws"... making something you did<BR>
 illegal *after* you did it, and still being able to arrest and convict<BR>
 you of violating that law. I doubt that the Imperium will allow these<BR>
 as they make things just *too* uncertain.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
How about Debtor's Prison? That would be a cool one. Add court costs and high <BR>
interest rates, as well as a per day charge for confinement, and the five <BR>
credits the party was short of at the bar could cost them their ship and <BR>
enslave them for life.<BR>
<BR>
Another good one would be to have one of your players who likes to say "My <BR>
God" or something like that on or going to a planet with a clause of no state <BR>
sponsered religion, have them see something cool while delievering the mail <BR>
charter, the player says the words, and you nail them for a constitutional <BR>
violation for speaking religion while part of the government. Then you assign <BR>
the death penalty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 18:57:33 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
>Rob,<BR>
>What ruleset are the long descriptions based on?<BR>
>G:Animals, Uplift, or something else?<BR>
><BR>
>> They are radially symmetric, having 6<BR>
>> grasping paws and an invertebrate posture.<BR>
>Posture should be horizontal or vertical only.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Uplift. They give "invertebrate" as a posture.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not convinced I like the uplift tables, frankly, but haven't anything<BR>
better to offer at the moment.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:00:40 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
>> They have 3 eyes placed all around<BR>
>Visual field : number of directions? degrees of arc?<BR>
<BR>
That's supposed to be evenly spaced - I was trying to save words.<BR>
<BR>
>Formatting comment :-<BR>
>This may be an artifact of the mail server, but each block<BR>
>(appearance/special features/symmetry, locomotion,<BR>
>posture/reproduction/senses) should be broken up - a paragraph for each?<BR>
<BR>
There are currently three paragraphs in the expanded GURPS listing (the<BR>
last one): weapons/skin, senses, and everything else.  I can easily split<BR>
up everything else, but then the descriptions get longer. We're already at<BR>
four pages for a single encounter table! (12-point times, single-spaced,<BR>
one column)<BR>
<BR>
What do folks think?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:03:44 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
>Robert Prior wrote:<BR>
>> 1) How many people would use an option to print<BR>
>> Classic/MegaTraveller, TNE, or T4 stats? (It already supports metric,<BR>
>> BTW.)<BR>
><BR>
>I would use T4 stats. A general suggestion would be to add all the rules<BR>
>systems, as we use different sets (I only use T4, for example).<BR>
<BR>
Dom has suggested using the system in 101 Lifeforms. Seeing as GT Bestiary<BR>
will be a BITS product, that sounds reasonable to me. What do the rest of<BR>
you think?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:25:15 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Cracking water for hydorgen<BR>
<BR>
Slashdot (http://slashdot.org) has an article about using algae and sunlight to<BR>
create pure hyrodgen.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe water CAN be used for jump fuel (Pass it thtough an algae plant to crack<BR>
it, and pipe it to the engines. Maybe enough can be used to have a continous<BR>
stream?<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:58:56 +0200<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 2:00 AM<BR>
Subject: Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
> <BR>
> There are currently three paragraphs in the expanded GURPS listing (the<BR>
> last one): weapons/skin, senses, and everything else.  I can easily split<BR>
> up everything else, but then the descriptions get longer. We're already at<BR>
> four pages for a single encounter table! (12-point times, single-spaced,<BR>
> one column)<BR>
> <BR>
> What do folks think?<BR>
> <BR>
I think the results this far look magnificent. Also IMO three paragraphs is enough. <BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:02:00 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: passport and DL's<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 1:12:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> From WHAT?  When I show you a passport it's got the US Government Federal<BR>
>  Seal on it and mine is all covered with stamps from Japan Immigration.<BR>
>  Hello?  It couldn't possibly be anyone else's.<BR>
<BR>
In regards to California, a US passport is not legal ID to buy alcohol <BR>
(tobacco is a somewhat grey area, but most companies treat it the same to <BR>
CTA). It used to be till about 4 years ago or so. ABC requirements are that <BR>
it have a picture and a physical (written) description of the person.<BR>
  <BR>
>  And don't give me all that stuff about drinking laws.  I may not look it,<BR>
>  but I'm 35.  I look around 25 according to most people and I occasionally<BR>
>  get carded, but that's not when I have the problem, I have the problem<BR>
>  when I'm trying to cash an effing CHECK!!!  (I've never had someone refuse<BR>
>  a passport when they were carding me.  Even for buying cheap sake and<BR>
>  beer.)<BR>
<BR>
Most places I know require ID's to be checked for people appearing 35 (or 40) <BR>
and under, so your in that category (once again to CTA). At certain times all <BR>
IDs might be checked if they believe a sting is occuring.<BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
>  I once had a BANK official refuse to take a frakkin' passport-- at my own<BR>
>  effing BANK!!!  He gave me some kind of noise about people buying fake<BR>
>  passports in the Hispanic sections of town.  But my picture is on the<BR>
>  passport and my signature and all that other good stuff and they have<BR>
>  records of all that stuff to match with.  I went to another branch of the<BR>
>  bank and had no problem.  That yahoo was insisting that a California DL is<BR>
>  harder to get and more reliable than a US passport and I happen to know<BR>
>  that anyone who can really get you a fake passport can also get you a fake<BR>
>  DL.  <BR>
<BR>
Insofar as banks are concerned, that's another area.<BR>
  <BR>
>  It's just a lot of the racist noise I get from people who think I'm<BR>
>  Hispanic because they're too dumb to realize that you can have black hair<BR>
>  and eyes (or even a Spanish last name, DUH) without being illegal.  If I<BR>
>  had an epicanthic fold I might get less of this, they treat part or full<BR>
>  Asians *slightly* better-- but I don't know-- Hiroshi gets a lot of<BR>
>  "stuff" too, but then he has an accent.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:03:42 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Nuclear Fission<BR>
<BR>
I've only been skimming the thread but can someone tell me why there <BR>
are requests to remove a discussion of the risks of nuclear fission <BR>
(a viable technology in Traveller) yet no comments on the ongoing <BR>
legal discussion of the secession of the United States from the <BR>
British Empire?<BR>
<BR>
Both seem to have obTrav links. If anything, the nuclear fission one more so.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:12:32 EST<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
 >Also, if it's a true fusion rocket as opposed to using a fusion reactor<BR>
 >to heat fuel, you'll have a lot of gamma pouring out the tail end.<BR>
<BR>
The only fusion (and fission) rockets I'm aware of are the kind where the <BR>
reactor is used to heat the fuel and push it out the tail end.  What are <BR>
the "true" fusion rockets that spit out gamma rays?  Do you mean a nuclear <BR>
impulse engine like in project Orion (nuclear explosions pushing against a <BR>
reaction plate)?  Has anyone done rules for these engines in Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
Also, how feasible are fission or fusion _jet_ engines for atmospheric use <BR>
(using air as a working fluid, with or without mixing some form of fuel in <BR>
for "reheat")?  Have any real world tests been done on such engines?  <BR>
<BR>
Final questions: Has anyone done rules for Traveller on light sail "engines"? <BR>
How about ion rockets?  Anyone got rules for a "hard SF" version of Trav... <BR>
say TL-9, no psi, no anti-grav, maybe jump drive as the one speculative bit?<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:14:25 EST<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: TC vs. ZS<BR>
<BR>
Chris Dixon Writes:<BR>
<BR>
 >I'm working slowly on my first contact years and I've hit a conundrum.<BR>
 ><BR>
 >When the Terrans and the Vilani first mixed it up the Terrans were TL 9<BR>
 >and the Vilani were tl 11.  Using High guard that limits the Terrans<BR>
 >ship size to 1K tons or less and the Vilani to 50K tons or less.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, from "Alien Module 6: Solomani Bastards", the Terran trash first <BR>
encountered the Grand Empire of Stars in 2096AD.  That would probably put <BR>
the Terrans  at TL-10.  This would give a the Terrans a better chance. <BR>
We're at TL-8 now, I figured that TL-9 would be hit in the early decades <BR>
of the 21st century, with TL-10 hit about 2060, when AM6 claims Earth has <BR>
established colonies throughout the solar system.  <BR>
<BR>
Another point to consider is that the First Imperium was collapsing from <BR>
many causes at the time of contact (from what I gleaned from the OTU, others <BR>
may disagree).  IMTU, I always assumed the Terran "conquest" was more of <BR>
an occupation of an increasingly fragmented, chaotic, and decayed state, <BR>
capable of sporadic & disorganized resistance, only.<BR>
<BR>
Hope these can be useful.  If you don't like them, chuck them out the airlock.<BR>
I'm basing them on 10 year old memories (still waiting on the Classic <BR>
Reprints).   :)<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne adds:<BR>
<BR>
 >My reading of the background material in Imperium suggests that<BR>
 >the Terrans didn't contact the Villani untill developement of J2, ie TL<BR>
 >11.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
 <BR>
 >I can't find any other references to the respective TL in any of my <BR>
 >material (an incomplete collection to be sure) although<BR>
<BR>
In AM6, the first Terran expedition via jump to another star (Barnard's <BR>
Star) was done in two jump-1 installments.  That probably indicates TL- <BR>
9 or 10.<BR>
<BR>
 >Personally I'd give the Terrans TL 11 at least for computers (resulting <BR>
 >in ships of same maximum mass if somewhat less capable.)<BR>
<BR>
Very cool idea.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:17:21 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Passport and DL's<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 3:22:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Meep. Wrong Answer. Please try again!<BR>
>  <BR>
>  The passport, by federal law, is valid identification for ALL PURPOSES.<BR>
>  (Read one sometime... US ones specify it!) Same with any federal goverment<BR>
>  ID. There was a segment on (IIRC) Dateline (NBC) and another on Justice<BR>
>  files about the problems with forgeries, and pointed out the same citation<BR>
>  as is on elections materials in alaska. You CAN NOT legally refuse to<BR>
>  accept a passport tendered for identification purposes within the US.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. It's not valid for buying alcohol (and possibly tobacco). If you have a <BR>
problem with that you have to take it up with California's ABC board. About 7 <BR>
years ago you used to be able to take green card and passports. They then <BR>
tightened the restrictions to requiring the ID to have a picture and <BR>
description, so green cards were no longer acceptable, however they still <BR>
allowed Passports. About 4 years ago, Passports were no longer allowed.<BR>
Other state DL's are up to the individual store. However they are not <BR>
required to accept them.<BR>
  <BR>
>  Additionally, this violates the full faith and credit rules: It means that<BR>
>  California does not place full faith and credit in the identiy documents<BR>
>  issued by other states, nor by the feds; this is clearly unconstitutional,<BR>
>  as If it does not constitute valid identification, it cannot grant the<BR>
>  right to drive.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not talking about driving. Just drinking. Anyway if a cop wanted to have <BR>
fun he could spend all day at our store writing tickets on people driving <BR>
without a license.<BR>
  <BR>
>  Also, at least in Oregon, Washington, and Alaska, DMV will happily run a<BR>
>  D/L for validity, or describe it, to clerks (I've had this happen. Once.)<BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:24:31 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Passport and DL<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/18/00 1:12:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > I went to another branch of the bank and had no problem.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Different clerk.  The Clerks are free to refuse a sale/withdrawl/whatever <BR>
at<BR>
>  their own convenience *BECAUSE* every time they make that<BR>
>  sale/withdrawl/whatever it's the Clerks ass on the line (both from the <BR>
laws and<BR>
>  their own employer).<BR>
<BR>
Someone I know worked cashing checks at a bank, at one branch he always <BR>
bucked it up to his superior as to whether to cash a check or not. The <BR>
problems were that he was personally responsible for any losses, and the area <BR>
had a high incidence of check fraud (in fact someone stole a my wife's check <BR>
out of a mailbox, altered it, and tried cashing it at that branch).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:29:20 -0800<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: A real world example<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>>>  Just because a 'vast majority' of people<BR>
>>> 'want' something, doesn't make it right.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>> No, but if a vast majority want it, then the government responsible must take<BR>
>> that course of action.  Do not do so is to not follow the wishes of the<BR>
>> majority of voters that put that government in place.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
 <BR>
> Well, to deliberately pick an emotionally-laden example, if a majority of<BR>
> Americans voted to make homosexuality a crime, or a majority of Germans<BR>
> voted to eliminate the Jewish problem, would that make those actions right?<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
There is a huge difference between what is "Right" and what is "Law." And<BR>
the Law makes no apologies for it. In fact, we are protected from those who<BR>
attempt to climb that highest of mountains to sit in judgement over what is<BR>
"Right" and "Wrong." Our Judges are to base their decisions on the Law, and<BR>
nothing else -- thus protecting us from highly subjective viewpoints that<BR>
metamorphosize continuously as generations go by.<BR>
<BR>
The Framers knew well the dangers of what they called the "tyranny of the<BR>
Majority." The Bill of Rights is designed to protect everyone from such a<BR>
tyranny. However, the majority cannot be so easily disregarded. The<BR>
Constitution provides for the majority to "get what they want," although the<BR>
process was made very difficult.<BR>
<BR>
Case in point: The Prohibition Movement in the United States, (1890-1913.)<BR>
The majority of Americans wanted Prohibition. Many state laws were enacted<BR>
that forbade the use, manufacture, sale, import, or export of "intoxicating<BR>
liquors." The U.S. Congress also passed Federal law to that effect. All of<BR>
these laws were declared unconstitutional.<BR>
<BR>
So, they proposed an amendment to the Constitution. It takes quite a strong<BR>
and active majority to pass an Amendment. It must pass both Houses of<BR>
Congress by a two-thirds majority, and then three-fourths of all the States<BR>
must ratify it before it becomes an actual Amendment. Enough of a majority<BR>
was present to pass and ratify the Eighteenth Amendment on January 16, 1919.<BR>
One year from that date, it was illegal to use, manufacture, sell, import or<BR>
export "intoxicating liquors" in the United States and all Territories under<BR>
its jurisdiction, for "beverage purposes." And it was, of course, completely<BR>
Constitutional.<BR>
<BR>
We all know the story. It was a bad call. Crime skyrocketed, and the use of<BR>
alcohol did not stop. It took until December 5, 1933 to ratify the<BR>
Twenty-First Amendment, which repealed the Eighteenth, and again allowed<BR>
"intoxicating liquors" to be legal in the U.S.<BR>
<BR>
The majority DOES rule.  They cannot infringe upon the rights given to all<BR>
citizens of the United States -- unless they Amend the Constitution to allow<BR>
for such. It took an Amendment to make slavery unconstitutional. (Article<BR>
Thirteen). It took an Amendment to allow men to vote without regard for<BR>
their "race, color, or previous condition of servitude." (Article Fifteen).<BR>
It took an Amendment to allow women to vote. (Article Nineteen). It took an<BR>
Amendment to allow any citizen to vote without a "poll tax" or other<BR>
obstruction. (Article Twenty-Four)<BR>
<BR>
It took an Amendment to allow the Federal Government to collect income<BR>
taxes. (Article Sixteen).<BR>
<BR>
The majority still has the right to repeal any of these, or to add more<BR>
Amendments. They can, by doing so, remove rights that were previously<BR>
guaranteed, or grant rights that the people never had before, (or, at least,<BR>
innumerate them Constitutionally.)<BR>
<BR>
But it still has nothing to do with anyone's notions of "Right" and "Wrong."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------<BR>
Hypercleats / ICQ: 8139313<BR>
Geek Code: tc++ tm !tn-- t4< tg< to+ ru+(@) ge+ 3i+ c+(-) jt- au+ ls++ pi+<BR>
ta@ he(+) kk+ hi+ zh+ vi+ da++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:34:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
David P. Summers writes:<BR>
> At 12:30 PM -0800 2/22/00, Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
> >Is there any more modern data which would suggest what stars might hold<BR>
> >habitable planets?  I am looking for specific spectral classes ( g0<BR>
> >through g9 is obvious ).<BR>
> <BR>
> One really doesn't know.  The main question people talk about<BR>
> is M Dwarves and the fact that to be close enough to be in the<BR>
> habital zone you have to be tidally locked.  If you are locked<BR>
> into something other than a 1:1 resonance (like Mercury which<BR>
> is a 3:2 resonance and rotates 3 times every two orbits) then<BR>
> you are generally OK.  If you are in a 1:1 resonance the<BR>
> latest modelling indicates that it is quite possible for<BR>
> the atmosphere to distribut heat around the planet.  The<BR>
> the issue of all the water collecting on the dark side<BR>
> is a significant one.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it isn't quite that limited.  The following things are of concern:<BR>
It probably takes 1.5-2 billion years to create a habitable world.  This means<BR>
that A, B, and O class stars won't have habitable worlds (they don't live long<BR>
enough) and brighter F class stars are unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
As noted, being tide-locked is probably bad, which makes M-class and dimmer <BR>
K-class stars less likely.  The dimmest M-class stars aren't likely to even<BR>
have planets in their life zones.<BR>
<BR>
The atmosphere has a window in the visual light range at which most radiation<BR>
hits the ground.  As this is fairly close to the peak output of a G-class star,<BR>
a lot of sunlight reaches the ground.  Other star types may be low on light<BR>
reaching the ground, which is bad for plants.  Again, this discourages M,A,B,0.<BR>
<BR>
And, of course, the fact that we're orbiting a G-class star, when there are<BR>
so many more M-class stars out there, suggests that M-class stars aren't as<BR>
likely to have habitable worlds.  There is, of course, a limit to how much<BR>
you can make of a statistical sample of 1.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:29:03 -0600<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
In <00221.233341.2P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, on 02/21/00 <BR>
   at 11:33 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>> A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
>> directly.<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, it *is*. At least if your reactor uses electrostatic<BR>
>confinement! <BR>
<BR>
IIRC, the reason these reactors have to be big is because you need to make<BR>
sure the wires aren't blocking the ions on their trip into the center. <BR>
Might it be possible to use gravitics, this is Traveller after all,  to<BR>
channel the ions past the solid wires into electrostatic fields, thus<BR>
allowing for much smaller more energitic EMF reactors?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:41:38 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Passports and DLs<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/20/00 1:26:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >I worked third shift at an all-night grocery store in Lexington Kentucky <BR>
for<BR>
>  >longer than I care to think about.  It's not a job requirement to be an<BR>
>  >idiot!<BR>
>   <BR>
>  But maybe it's a big help?<BR>
<BR>
At least that way they have something in common :)<BR>
<BR>
I've known fewer clerks who were idiots than customers. Ignorant clerks or <BR>
badly trained clerks on the other hand are a little more common. But than <BR>
what can you expect from most workers who just want to collect a paycheck and <BR>
than go home.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:04:38 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
   Although, IMTU I place Vilani settlement much further Coreward and use a <BR>
variant history which incorporates the 2300AD History... I have given some <BR>
thought to the question of Terran Superiority (as I run adventures from that <BR>
time to time - mainly giant space battles).<BR>
<BR>
My top 10 reasons for Terran success<BR>
<BR>
1.  As noted earlier, Vilani provinces are huge...look at Dogs & Cogs for <BR>
the size of each durisdiction of each bureau.<BR>
2.  One has to remember that these Provinces were run by a corporate <BR>
nomenklatura.  In which each governor, had to beg for resources which cost <BR>
him/her politically.<BR>
3.  The fact that the area around Terra was under mixed control and the map <BR>
itself leads one correctly assume that Rimward was a frontier.  It was also <BR>
a very calm frontier, although those Vegans with their fragmented culture, <BR>
did present some problems but the overall low tech levels of the worlds made <BR>
it very manageable.<BR>
4.  The Terrans were also an unknown quantity...the first Vilani contact <BR>
would have resulted in many mutual misunderstandings.  One should not assume <BR>
when it was Humans on Bernard that First Contact was peacefully (indeed as <BR>
later history would rightly reveal) that it was more akin to Columbus <BR>
"discovering" the Americas.  Sure they would have exchanged their beads and <BR>
axes but this was by all accounts a military mission, thus, those military <BR>
types tend to be a tad more paranoid then civilians.<BR>
5.  The Terrans also attacked not in unison, but individual nations possibly <BR>
confusing the Vilani, not knowing how many colonies that the Terrans <BR>
established Rimward.<BR>
6.  There is no account of Vilani ever knowing where Terra was until it was <BR>
already well into the wars.  By that time, Terrans would have established a <BR>
vast defensive buffer.<BR>
7.  As the Terrans advanced so called Minor Races viewed them as liberators <BR>
which could provide valuable allies behind enemy lines whenever the front <BR>
moved.<BR>
8.  As cited many times, the Vilani did not have a progressive view on <BR>
Technology.  I envision the Terrans, capturing higher Tech equipment and <BR>
through reverse engineering would be able to duplicate and mass produce it.  <BR>
Whereas, Vilani conservatism favoured artisanal production.<BR>
9.  The Vilani were also fighting a two front war (and as in Schaflin <BR>
Plan)the combined Vargr and Terran offensives brought the Empire to its <BR>
heels.<BR>
10.  The Vilani were smug, believing that they were the best, as all of <BR>
known Space was under their control (save what was too far and not worth <BR>
bothering about).  The last of the consolidation wars left the Vilani to <BR>
persue disarmment & governance.  Where as the Terrans were literally and <BR>
figuratively, the Young Turks of space.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:06:34 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
At 3:34 PM -0800 2/22/00, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>Well, it isn't quite that limited.  The following things are of concern:<BR>
>It probably takes 1.5-2 billion years to create a habitable world.  This means<BR>
>that A, B, and O class stars won't have habitable worlds (they don't live long<BR>
>enough) and brighter F class stars are unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
Actually evidence for life goes back 3.5-3.9 billion years ago<BR>
(700 to 1100 million years after the system formed).  Mutlicellular<BR>
life comes much later, but theories on why that is true are pretty<BR>
much just "theories".<BR>
<BR>
>As noted, being tide-locked is probably bad, which makes M-class and dimmer<BR>
>K-class stars less likely.<BR>
<BR>
The point of my previous post is that it isn't clear at all how<BR>
bad tidal locking is...<BR>
<BR>
>And, of course, the fact that we're orbiting a G-class star, when there are<BR>
>so many more M-class stars out there, suggests that M-class stars aren't as<BR>
>likely to have habitable worlds.  There is, of course, a limit to how much<BR>
>you can make of a statistical sample of 1.<BR>
<BR>
A big limit.  All you are really say is that it would be more<BR>
likely for life to be common around G types stars rather than<BR>
M Class stars.  And "more likely" is vague enough that you<BR>
realy can't draw any conclusions from it.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1956<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1957</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 22 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1957<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
RE: cooling ships<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
re : TC Superiority<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Re Languages in the OTU<BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Re: Nuclear Fission<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: A Real World<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: A real world example<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:18:41 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> The only fusion (and fission) rockets I'm aware of are the kind where<BR>
> the reactor is used to heat the fuel and push it out the tail end. <BR>
> What are the "true" fusion rockets that spit out gamma rays?  Do you<BR>
> mean a nuclear impulse engine like in project Orion (nuclear<BR>
> explosions pushing against a reaction plate)?  Has anyone done rules<BR>
> for these engines in Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
Isn't that the Daedalus Drive mentioned in FF&S2?<BR>
<BR>
"[...] pellets are injected into an ignition chamber [...] thermonuclear<BR>
explosion which pushes the ship forward [...]"<BR>
- - FF&S2, page 67<BR>
<BR>
> Final questions: Has anyone done rules for Traveller on light sail<BR>
> "engines"? How about ion rockets?  Anyone got rules for a "hard SF"<BR>
> version of Trav... say TL-9, no psi, no anti-grav, maybe jump drive<BR>
> as the one speculative bit?<BR>
<BR>
You will probably be flogged for that statement.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is pretty hard SF already. Just remove the PSI (I do so<BR>
anyway), don't use anti-grav (not available at TL9 anyway), and you're<BR>
ready to go.<BR>
<BR>
Both light sails and ion rockets are described in FF&S2, by the way.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:11:20 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
I think the Solomani victory make more sense if you assume...<BR>
1) The First Imperium was also beset by the Vargr and others.<BR>
It was just the Solomani that pushed in (did they surrender<BR>
to the Solomani to avoid surrendering to other races?)<BR>
<BR>
2) Various Terran virus' were spreading through the<BR>
First Imperium, causing plagues and disruptions and<BR>
greatly weakening it.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:38:23 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: cooling ships<BR>
<BR>
>Bolie Williams IV writes:<BR>
><snipped><BR>
>>Assuming that a spaceship is a perfect radiating body and a<BR>
>>space background temperature of 4 K, a 200 ton far trader under<BR>
>>full thrust generates about 60 megawatts.  To radiate this<BR>
>>amount of heat would require a skin temperature of about 700<BR>
>>Celsius.  No ship is going to be a perfect radiator, so the<BR>
>>actual temperature will be higher.  This is regardless of the<BR>
>>type of cooling system the powerplant uses.  All that can do is<BR>
>>get the heat to the skin of the ship rather than heating the<BR>
>>whole ship up on the way to the skin.<BR>
><snipped><BR>
><BR>
>	Is the 60 megawatts mentioned above the electrical power<BR>
>	output only, or does it include the waste heat and the<BR>
>	energy being carried away by the reaction mass?  IMTU,<BR>
>	insulation of the power plant and maneuver drive are<BR>
>	stupidly efficient, and I assume that most of the extra<BR>
>	heat leaves with the propellant and actual electrical<BR>
>	generation is relatively low.<BR>
<BR>
Remember that thrusters are reactionless in GT, ditto in MegaTraveller and<BR>
(possibly) Classic Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, maybe that's the real reason behind HEPLar! :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:53:26 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
>Ray Wiberg wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > I have a couple of questions for the list, as I prepare the formal<BR>
>> > THUDDD 12 proposal:<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > 1.  Where is the Spinward Marches IN Sector HQ ca. 1115?  GT:BTC<BR>
>> > mentions that Sector HQ is on Efate.  Am I reading this correctly?<BR>
>><BR>
>> According to  The TNE Regency Sourcebook p38 states that Regina is both<BR>
>> the capital of the Regina Subsector and the Spinward Marches<BR>
><BR>
>This agrees with the political capital information as given in GT:BTC<BR>
>and (IIRC) earlier material.  I'm trying to figure out where the<BR>
>Imperial Navy Sector HQ is (which doesn't have to be the same world as<BR>
>the political capital).  My assumption is that the various sector<BR>
>headquarters have a fair amount of leeway in ship procurement, based on<BR>
>the strategic needs of their respective sectors.  Obviously, in this<BR>
>case, a call for prototypes for a sector fleet would be issued from the<BR>
>sector HQ.<BR>
<BR>
Looks like another OOPS for BTC.<BR>
<BR>
According to "The Spinward Marches Campaign" the Imperial Sector Capital is<BR>
Mora.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:32:03 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
David P. Summers writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Actually evidence for life goes back 3.5-3.9 billion years ago<BR>
> (700 to 1100 million years after the system formed).  Mutlicellular<BR>
> life comes much later, but theories on why that is true are pretty<BR>
> much just "theories".<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but 'life' isn't much use for an inhabitable world.  For an inhabitable<BR>
world we want an oxygen-based atmosphere, which was not what you get from<BR>
the initial life which appeared on earth.<BR>
> <BR>
> >As noted, being tide-locked is probably bad, which makes M-class and<BR>
> >dimmer K-class stars less likely.<BR>
> <BR>
> The point of my previous post is that it isn't clear at all how<BR>
> bad tidal locking is...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I agree that it isn't known if tide-locking is fatal.  However, it's <BR>
probably bad, and all I said was 'less likely'.  There are a number of ways <BR>
to avoid tide-locking for M-class worlds in any case (aside from resonant<BR>
tide-locking, a world that is a gas giant moon will be tide-locked with the <BR>
gas giant rather than the sun, and a world with a large moon will probably be<BR>
tidelocked with its moon rather than the sun).<BR>
> <BR>
> >And, of course, the fact that we're orbiting a G-class star, when there<BR>
> >are so many more M-class stars out there, suggests that M-class stars<BR>
> >aren't as likely to have habitable worlds.  There is, of course, a limit to<BR>
> >how much you can make of a statistical sample of 1.<BR>
> <BR>
> A big limit.  All you are really say is that it would be more<BR>
> likely for life to be common around G types stars rather than<BR>
> M Class stars.  And "more likely" is vague enough that you<BR>
> realy can't draw any conclusions from it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, you can, but they aren't terribly useful for predicting the universe.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:34:03 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
I guess the mechanics of CT are what's killing me here.  (It's what I<BR>
know and love, quirks and all, so I probably won't be changing any time<BR>
soon.)<BR>
<BR>
Under high guard rules you can build a particle accelerator at TL 8 that<BR>
weighs 5500 tons.  However, your maximum hull size as limited by maximum<BR>
computer size is<BR>
<BR>
1,000 tons at TL 8<BR>
4,000 tons at TL 9<BR>
10,000 tons at TL 10<BR>
50,000 tons at TL 11<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
The quick and dirty method (which I would hevily lobby for) would be asteroid<BR>
hulls. Unlimited size, tough in defence, cheap as mud.<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
Perhaps the Terrans hit TL 10 very quickly after 1st contact i.e. the<BR>
"oh my god there is a huge empire out there syndrome."  You could start<BR>
building halfway decent spinal mounted ships at that point 4500 tons at<BR>
tl 10.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
You could allways have a hodgepodge of tech for Terra. It is concievable that M<BR>
drives are a TL behind normal TL (and it ties in with the origin of Terran J<BR>
drive discovery, they where looking for a better M drive and actually used J<BR>
drives for microjumps in system.<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
Unfortunately you couldn't build a tender big enough to haul it around<BR>
until you hit TL 11 (about 2 years after the 1st war ends)<BR>
<BR>
I'm thinking the Vilani could have used J2 Tenders in the 50K ton range<BR>
with 5 - 10K battle riders as the mainstay of the fleet.<BR>
<BR>
The Tenders are kept away from the fray maybe protected by a strategic<BR>
reserve of say 1/3 of the carried vessels.   The bulk of the fleet are<BR>
battle riders that if captured do not have J2 drives to reverse engineer<BR>
(The Vilani seem pretty paranoid about this).  If things go badly the<BR>
Tenders leave and the riders are on their own.  (Note refueling would be<BR>
a priority under this scenario and dedicated tanker ships as well.)<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
See above with asteroid hulls. Having a block of rock with .1g manouver thrust<BR>
with 5 4,000dton parasites looks like fun.<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
This puts the Terrans more on even footing with the Vilani as far as<BR>
hull size goes, at least at the beginning of the war.<BR>
<BR>
It also puts the capture of a Tender at the top of the UN priority list<BR>
(oh the adventure possibilities).<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
I agree, but make it M drives, and it adds a different slant to the war.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:40:35 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: re : TC Superiority<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
IIRC, from "Alien Module 6: Solomani Bastards", the Terran trash first<BR>
encountered the Grand Empire of Stars in 2096AD.  That would probably put<BR>
the Terrans  at TL-10.  This would give a the Terrans a better chance.<BR>
We're at TL-8 now, I figured that TL-9 would be hit in the early decades<BR>
of the 21st century, with TL-10 hit about 2060, when AM6 claims Earth has<BR>
established colonies throughout the solar system.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
See my previous post. The Solar system colonies where made possable by J drives<BR>
being used as insystem drives. Maybe we can say that Terran M drives are less<BR>
efficient (TL8) , or have mass penalties. Dont let the TL be so arbitory. In<BR>
fact it could all be Vilani propoganda :<BR>
<BR>
"These Terran scum are obviously inferior, as WE have TL11 and they are still<BR>
TL10!"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
Another point to consider is that the First Imperium was collapsing from<BR>
many causes at the time of contact (from what I gleaned from the OTU, others<BR>
may disagree).  IMTU, I always assumed the Terran "conquest" was more of<BR>
an occupation of an increasingly fragmented, chaotic, and decayed state,<BR>
capable of sporadic & disorganized resistance, only.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani empire was rotting. The Interstellar wars was initially one of many<BR>
border wars faced by the Vilani. It was the discovery of J3 that let the Terrans<BR>
into the Vilani empire like Mongols on acid. Otherwise they would have been like<BR>
the Vagr, a drain of resources , but a price many was willing to pay.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:19:07 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
I can't argue with the number that you present, but all that i have to say is <BR>
that in my many playing of "Imperium", I would have loved to have sicced some <BR>
battleriders on those rascally Vilani, but unfortunately the Terrans never <BR>
invented them.  They would have been ideal for the Terrans strategic <BR>
situation, since they could be cranked out to function both as defensive <BR>
monitors and as offensive strike craft.<BR>
<BR>
Ken<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:02:27 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re Languages in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:55:37 -0900, "William F. Hostman"<BR>
<aramis@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>What is the name of the Hiver language? Is it possible for a human to<BR>
>>speak it or do they always rely on translation devices? Do the other<BR>
>>races of the Hive Federation have their own languages?<BR>
>><BR>
>It has no spoken name. In fact, it is not spoken. Hiver is either written<BR>
>or gestural; it is mentioned that all member races of the Hive Federation<BR>
>are expected to learn written hiver. (AM7:H p16) I suspect creative humans<BR>
>might be able to learn to "Understand" "Spoken" (read as gestured) hiver;<BR>
>attempts to "Speak" gestured hiver would be crippled (but possibly<BR>
>successful if done with sufficient creativity and dexterity) by having only<BR>
>5 digits per limb.<BR>
><BR>
>Also note that no "hiver words" are provided, and no method for generating<BR>
>them is in either H&I nor AM7:H. This is because there is no spoken<BR>
>component, and hiver is apparently symbolic in written form, much like the<BR>
>1800 common ideograms of Japanese, or the ideograms of chinese.<BR>
><BR>
>So, dealing with hivers is typically going to be a case of "Live<BR>
>Subtitles"... just look at the translators used by hivers! (They typically<BR>
>include a screen for displaying a "Simulated hiver" gesturing the<BR>
>translation; I suspect subtitles would be included for non-hivers to verify<BR>
>the translation...)<BR>
<BR>
OK. I'll use two different skills: Language (Hiver-Gesture) and<BR>
Language (Hiver-Written). Gesture would be a very hard skill while<BR>
written would be average. Gesture defaults to written at -1 while<BR>
written to spoken at -12. <BR>
<BR>
>BTW: it is mentioned in AM7:H that all names that are not english<BR>
>translations are derived from the  Gurvin language (AM7:H, p13). Gurvin<BR>
>DOES have a spoken language, with ideographic written form.<BR>
<BR>
Great! I'll add Za'tachk, Ithklur, and Gurvin to my list.<BR>
<BR>
>>What is the name of the K'kree language? (That's the one alien module<BR>
>>I don't have.)<BR>
>><BR>
>AM2:K'Kree only refers to the language as either "K'kree" or "K'kree<BR>
>language". I believe the language was named in a JTAS article, which I<BR>
>can't find right now.<BR>
<BR>
Cool! Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get <BR>
 used to the idea."                  - Robert A. Heinlein<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:14:11 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
>Final questions: Has anyone done rules for Traveller on light sail "engines"?<BR>
>How about ion rockets?  Anyone got rules for a "hard SF" version of Trav...<BR>
>say TL-9, no psi, no anti-grav, maybe jump drive as the one speculative bit?<BR>
<BR>
There's rules in GURPS Vehicles. (There's also rules in GURPS Spacem but<BR>
they're broken.)<BR>
<BR>
I designed Chris a couple of lightsail modules for GT: Starships. Hopefully<BR>
they'll make it in...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:50:48 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Fission<BR>
<BR>
A little nukie never hurt anybody :-p<BR>
<BR>
- -displaced nuclear worker<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "SD Mooney" <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
> I've only been skimming the thread but can someone tell me why there<BR>
> are requests to remove a discussion of the risks of nuclear fission<BR>
> (a viable technology in Traveller) yet no comments on the ongoing<BR>
> legal discussion of the secession of the United States from the<BR>
> British Empire?<BR>
><BR>
> Both seem to have obTrav links. If anything, the nuclear fission one more<BR>
so.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:06:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In <00221.233341.2P9.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, on 02/21/00 <BR>
>    at 11:33 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>> A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
>>> directly.<BR>
><BR>
>>Actually, it *is*. At least if your reactor uses electrostatic<BR>
>>confinement! <BR>
><BR>
> IIRC, the reason these reactors have to be big is because you need to make<BR>
> sure the wires aren't blocking the ions on their trip into the center. <BR>
<BR>
Partly that, but mostly that you need *seperation* to prevent arcing at<BR>
the voltages involved. Also, It seems likely that power output would<BR>
scale with volume of the central area where the fusion takes place.<BR>
<BR>
> Might it be possible to use gravitics, this is Traveller after all,  to<BR>
> channel the ions past the solid wires into electrostatic fields, thus<BR>
> allowing for much smaller more energitic EMF reactors?<BR>
<BR>
I'd use the gravitics to aid in accelerating the protons. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, since it seems likely that "standard" Traveller tech doesn't use<BR>
this type of reactor, you could have fun with players discovering an<BR>
alien installation (or just one on a world that was isolated for<BR>
centuries) powered by such a reactor. Trying to figure out *what* this<BR>
"giant vacuum tube" was for would be loads of fun.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:29:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:30 PM -0800 2/22/00, Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
>>Is there any more modern data which would suggest what stars might hold<BR>
>>habitable planets?  I am looking for specific spectral classes ( g0 through<BR>
>>g9 is obvious ).<BR>
><BR>
> One really doesn't know.  The main question people talk about<BR>
> is M Dwarves and the fact that to be close enough to be in the<BR>
> habital zone you have to be tidally locked.  If you are locked<BR>
> into something other than a 1:1 resonance (like Mercury which<BR>
> is a 3:2 resonance and rotates 3 times every two orbits) then<BR>
> you are generally OK.  If you are in a 1:1 resonance the<BR>
> latest modelling indicates that it is quite possible for<BR>
> the atmosphere to distribut heat around the planet.  The<BR>
> the issue of all the water collecting on the dark side<BR>
> is a significant one.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, if there's *enough* water, and the middle of<BR>
darkside isn't *too* cold, you'll get a glacier covering that<BR>
hemisphere, and as new water is deposited, more or less equal amounts<BR>
would reach areas where they could melt, due to the icecap "flowing"<BR>
under it's own weight. <BR>
<BR>
3:2 resonance would make for a *very* interesting planet, but<BR>
describing the day/night cycles at other than the rotational poles, and<BR>
the points closest/farthest at perihelion is a *real* pain. Weather<BR>
would likely be *really* weird. <BR>
<BR>
>>In addition, what distance between binaries would allow<BR>
>>the formation of a habitalbe planet?  any?<BR>
><BR>
> As long as the stars are close enough together to act as one<BR>
> star (something like less than 1/5 the distance to the plantary<BR>
> orbit apart) or far enough out that they don't disturbe the orbit<BR>
> too much (something like 5 times the distance of the planetary<BR>
> orbit) then the orbit can be stable.  As far as the habital<BR>
> zone goes, if they are close together, you calc the habital<BR>
> zone based on the combined insolation of the two stars if they<BR>
> were one source.  If they are far apart, you can generally<BR>
> ignore the distant one.<BR>
<BR>
One of Asimov's essays has a description of what the solar system would<BR>
be like if Sol had a companion the size & distance as Alpha Centauri B<BR>
is from Alpha-A. As I recall, the companion winds up about where Uranus<BR>
is, and is about as bright as the full moon. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:52:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Real World<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 2/22/00 3:01:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << Ex post facto laws. I.E. "retroactive laws"... making something you did<BR>
>  illegal *after* you did it, and still being able to arrest and convict<BR>
>  you of violating that law. I doubt that the Imperium will allow these<BR>
>  as they make things just *too* uncertain.<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
> How about Debtor's Prison? That would be a cool one. Add court costs<BR>
> and high interest rates, as well as a per day charge for confinement,<BR>
> and the five credits the party was short of at the bar could cost<BR>
> them their ship and enslave them for life.<BR>
<BR>
Debtor's Prison is another one that was dropped for good reason. It<BR>
rarely got useful amounts back. On the other hand, even *now* it's<BR>
perfectly legal to *sentence* you to "indentured servitude" or even<BR>
slavery AS PUNISHMENT FOR A CRIME. Such as "defrauding an innkeeper"?<BR>
:-) <BR>
<BR>
So if you are short the 5 credits, your buddies get a chance to pay the<BR>
money, plus a fine, plus various fees. If they can't (or don't feel<BR>
like it) you get found a job where if you work at it, you'll pay the<BR>
moneies owed, plus your support costs. And oddss are they';d pick<BR>
something you had some skills at, unless you had no locally usable<BR>
skills. Not to be nice, but simply because they can get the money back<BR>
faster that way.<BR>
<BR>
Make a nice way to deal with a character who has to leave the group for<BR>
a while, but will be back. Have him sentenced this way, and when he's<BR>
paid his debt (in however many months/years), the party can drop by and<BR>
pick him up. <BR>
<BR>
> Another good one would be to have one of your players who likes to<BR>
> say "My God" or something like that on or going to a planet with a<BR>
> clause of no state sponsered religion, have them see something cool<BR>
> while delievering the mail charter, the player says the words, and<BR>
> you nail them for a constitutional violation for speaking religion<BR>
> while part of the government. Then you assign the death penalty.<BR>
<BR>
Or even a lesser but annoying penalty. It's also possible to nail him<BR>
for *blasphemy* if the world has a religious based government. <BR>
<BR>
And then there are things like the guy who just lost his last appeal<BR>
on a conviction for swearing in front of children. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:36:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 3:34 PM -0800 2/22/00, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>>Well, it isn't quite that limited.  The following things are of concern:<BR>
>>It probably takes 1.5-2 billion years to create a habitable world.  This <BR>
> means<BR>
>>that A, B, and O class stars won't have habitable worlds (they don't live <BR>
> long<BR>
>>enough) and brighter F class stars are unlikely.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually evidence for life goes back 3.5-3.9 billion years ago<BR>
> (700 to 1100 million years after the system formed).  Mutlicellular<BR>
> life comes much later, but theories on why that is true are pretty<BR>
> much just "theories".<BR>
<BR>
True, but there's evidence of *several* geological events between then<BR>
and the "Cambrian explosion" of multi-cellular forms that would have<BR>
wiped out any higher lifeforms that had existed, unless they'd gotten<BR>
as far as we have.<BR>
<BR>
For example, at one point, the moon is thought to have moved *in* from<BR>
where it formed, gotten fairly close and spiralled back out again. At<BR>
the closest approach, the difference between high tide and low tiude is<BR>
greater than the average depth of the oceans! Which means the oceans<BR>
would likely have eroded the continents like mad, until you got to the<BR>
point of having two tidal bulges, half a mile or more deep following<BR>
the moon around the globe.<BR>
<BR>
Then there's the "icebox Earth" events. Where the planet *completely*<BR>
froze over. That's happened several times. <BR>
<BR>
So multi-cellular life may have gotten wiped out several times. While<BR>
the unicellular stuff just kept evolving, until finally, the planet<BR>
became hospitable on a more or les continuous basis.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:44:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: A real world example<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There is a huge difference between what is "Right" and what is "Law." And<BR>
> the Law makes no apologies for it. In fact, we are protected from those who<BR>
> attempt to climb that highest of mountains to sit in judgement over what is<BR>
> "Right" and "Wrong." Our Judges are to base their decisions on the Law, and<BR>
> nothing else -- thus protecting us from highly subjective viewpoints that<BR>
> metamorphosize continuously as generations go by.<BR>
><BR>
> The Framers knew well the dangers of what they called the "tyranny of the<BR>
> Majority." The Bill of Rights is designed to protect everyone from such a<BR>
> tyranny. However, the majority cannot be so easily disregarded. The<BR>
> Constitution provides for the majority to "get what they want," although the<BR>
> process was made very difficult.<BR>
><BR>
> Case in point: The Prohibition Movement in the United States, (1890-1913.)<BR>
> The majority of Americans wanted Prohibition.<BR>
<BR>
No. A vocal *minority* wanted it, and enough other folks to make up a<BR>
majority had various reasons for deciding to go along with them. Mostly<BR>
a desire to appear to be "a moral, upright citizen". <BR>
<BR>
This dichotomy between public and private beliefs is why Prohibition<BR>
didn't work, why the War on Drugs isn't working, and why most "vice<BR>
laws" are a waste of time and money.<BR>
<BR>
> So, they proposed an amendment to the Constitution. It takes quite a strong<BR>
> and active majority to pass an Amendment. It must pass both Houses of<BR>
> Congress by a two-thirds majority, and then three-fourths of all the States<BR>
> must ratify it before it becomes an actual Amendment. Enough of a majority<BR>
> was present to pass and ratify the Eighteenth Amendment on January 16, 1919.<BR>
> One year from that date, it was illegal to use, manufacture, sell, import or<BR>
> export "intoxicating liquors" in the United States and all Territories under<BR>
> its jurisdiction, for "beverage purposes." And it was, of course, completely<BR>
> Constitutional.<BR>
<BR>
Please note that it was a majority of our *representatives* that voted<BR>
for this, and they did so because it was what their constituents<BR>
*claimed* to want. A secret ballot of those constituents would have<BR>
rejected Prohibition by a large majority. But it wasn't "politic" to be<BR>
*known* to be anti-prohibition, just like appearing "pro-gay" can hurt<BR>
a lot of careers now.<BR>
<BR>
> We all know the story. It was a bad call. Crime skyrocketed, and the use of<BR>
> alcohol did not stop. It took until December 5, 1933 to ratify the<BR>
> Twenty-First Amendment, which repealed the Eighteenth, and again allowed<BR>
> "intoxicating liquors" to be legal in the U.S.<BR>
<BR>
Right, the representatives gave the people what they *said* they<BR>
wanted. Alas, many were lying thru their teeth.<BR>
<BR>
This is the big weakness of our system. It can't deal with the<BR>
difference between what people *really* want, and what they feel they<BR>
have to *say* they want when speaking publicly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:08:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 15:48 21.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> [spaclings/space reefs]<BR>
>>> Yes, I remember that one, too.  But I think that was more "space fantasy"<BR>
>>> since it assumed a lot of "super-bio-tech" like cellular fusion reactors, <BR>
>>> etc.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Well, it *started* by assuming a universe where the Big Bang theory was<BR>
>>*wrong* and the "Continous Creation" theory was *right*. <BR>
><BR>
> But cellular bio-fusion-reactors? A little bit too hard to imagine for my<BR>
> personal taste. <BR>
<BR>
Well, you do have to keep in mind the fact that they can "live" off the<BR>
energy from *one* fusion reaction for a *long* time. So if they somehow<BR>
manage to "luck into" a process that can both fuse hydrogen *and let<BR>
them utilize the enery with even a 1% efficiency, they've got it made.<BR>
<BR>
>  No, what I was looking for was a bit more "conservative": Life as we know<BR>
> it, but ertrapolated into a future where some if it has managed to adapt to<BR>
> hard vacuum, zero-G and hard radiation. (Would be a damn good enemy race<BR>
> fpor a TV show, don't you aggree? :-) )<BR>
<BR>
Hard radiation *survival* for unicellular forms is fairly easy. We have<BR>
lots of examples. <BR>
<BR>
Being able to *utilize* hard radiation as an energy source is *just* as<BR>
hard as biological fusion (in fact they are essentially the same<BR>
problem!) <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:00:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>  >Also, if it's a true fusion rocket as opposed to using a fusion reactor<BR>
>  >to heat fuel, you'll have a lot of gamma pouring out the tail end.<BR>
><BR>
> The only fusion (and fission) rockets I'm aware of are the kind where the <BR>
> reactor is used to heat the fuel and push it out the tail end.  What are <BR>
> the "true" fusion rockets that spit out gamma rays?  Do you mean a nuclear <BR>
> impulse engine like in project Orion (nuclear explosions pushing against a <BR>
> reaction plate)?  Has anyone done rules for these engines in Traveller?<BR>
<BR>
That's a "fusion heating" type rocket. A "true fusion rocket" would be<BR>
one using magnetic confinement with one end of the "bottle" opening to<BR>
a magnetic "nozzle". So you'd have fusion plasma as the exhaust, as<BR>
well as "line of sight" escape for the gamma rays over a medium sized<BR>
"cone" extending from the nozzle.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, how feasible are fission or fusion _jet_ engines for atmospheric use <BR>
> (using air as a working fluid, with or without mixing some form of fuel in <BR>
> for "reheat")?  Have any real world tests been done on such engines?  <BR>
<BR>
The Air Force looked into that. I've read the report (it got mis-filed<BR>
in the SF section of the base library once!)<BR>
<BR>
It takes a rather big plane, and unlike hydrogen, *air* tends to erode<BR>
the hell out of the graphite channels. <BR>
<BR>
If you want a *big* plane that can stay up for years, go with the AF's<BR>
design for a reactor using the steam turbine to drive propellers!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:25:06 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Feb 00, at 11:34, dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> >>><BR>
> I guess the mechanics of CT are what's killing me here.  (It's what I know<BR>
> and love, quirks and all, so I probably won't be changing any time soon.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Under high guard rules you can build a particle accelerator at TL 8 that<BR>
> weighs 5500 tons.  However, your maximum hull size as limited by maximum<BR>
> computer size is<BR>
> <BR>
> 1,000 tons at TL 8<BR>
> 4,000 tons at TL 9<BR>
> 10,000 tons at TL 10<BR>
> 50,000 tons at TL 11<BR>
> <<<<BR>
> <BR>
> The quick and dirty method (which I would hevily lobby for) would be<BR>
> asteroid hulls. Unlimited size, tough in defence, cheap as mud.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC the hull size limit is imposed by the computers, so using rocks <BR>
for hulls won't help.<BR>
<BR>
Actually this size limit could well explain the Terran preference for <BR>
missile weapons (if I'm remembering Imperium correctly, which I may not <BR>
be, seeing as I don't own it).<BR>
 <BR>
> >>><BR>
> Perhaps the Terrans hit TL 10 very quickly after 1st contact i.e. the "oh<BR>
> my god there is a huge empire out there syndrome."  You could start<BR>
> building halfway decent spinal mounted ships at that point 4500 tons at tl<BR>
> 10. <<<<BR>
> <BR>
> You could allways have a hodgepodge of tech for Terra. It is concievable<BR>
> that M drives are a TL behind normal TL (and it ties in with the origin of<BR>
> Terran J drive discovery, they where looking for a better M drive and<BR>
> actually used J drives for microjumps in system.<BR>
> <BR>
> >>><BR>
> Unfortunately you couldn't build a tender big enough to haul it around<BR>
> until you hit TL 11 (about 2 years after the 1st war ends)<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm thinking the Vilani could have used J2 Tenders in the 50K ton range<BR>
> with 5 - 10K battle riders as the mainstay of the fleet.<BR>
><BR>
> The Tenders are kept away from the fray maybe protected by a strategic<BR>
> reserve of say 1/3 of the carried vessels.   The bulk of the fleet are<BR>
> battle riders that if captured do not have J2 drives to reverse engineer<BR>
> (The Vilani seem pretty paranoid about this).  If things go badly the<BR>
> Tenders leave and the riders are on their own.  (Note refueling would be a<BR>
> priority under this scenario and dedicated tanker ships as well.) <<<<BR>
<BR>
OTOH if you stuff up the tender can't protect itself. You could make <BR>
just as good a case for the Vilani using battleships because they can <BR>
protect themselves, and thus the secret better.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1957<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1958</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 23 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1958<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re : TC Superiority<BR>
Re: Fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: Nukes in Space!<BR>
Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
Re: Fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Miniatures photo page, let me try this again...<BR>
Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
land ownership<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
RE: cooling ships<BR>
re Language<BR>
Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re : Population growth<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:25:06 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: re : TC Superiority<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Feb 00, at 11:40, dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >>><BR>
> IIRC, from "Alien Module 6: Solomani Bastards", the Terran trash first<BR>
> encountered the Grand Empire of Stars in 2096AD.  That would probably put<BR>
> the Terrans  at TL-10.  This would give a the Terrans a better chance.<BR>
> We're at TL-8 now, I figured that TL-9 would be hit in the early decades<BR>
> of the 21st century, with TL-10 hit about 2060, when AM6 claims Earth has<BR>
> established colonies throughout the solar system. <<<<BR>
> <BR>
> See my previous post. The Solar system colonies where made possable by J<BR>
> drives being used as insystem drives. Maybe we can say that Terran M<BR>
> drives are less efficient (TL8) , or have mass penalties. Dont let the TL<BR>
> be so arbitory. In fact it could all be Vilani propoganda :<BR>
> <BR>
> "These Terran scum are obviously inferior, as WE have TL11 and they are<BR>
> still TL10!"<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> >>><BR>
> Another point to consider is that the First Imperium was collapsing from<BR>
> many causes at the time of contact (from what I gleaned from the OTU,<BR>
> others may disagree).  IMTU, I always assumed the Terran "conquest" was<BR>
> more of an occupation of an increasingly fragmented, chaotic, and decayed<BR>
> state, capable of sporadic & disorganized resistance, only. <<<<BR>
> <BR>
> The Vilani empire was rotting. The Interstellar wars was initially one of<BR>
> many border wars faced by the Vilani. It was the discovery of J3 that let<BR>
> the Terrans into the Vilani empire like Mongols on acid. Otherwise they<BR>
> would have been like the Vagr, a drain of resources , but a price many was<BR>
> willing to pay.<BR>
<BR>
IMO part of the reason was that the Terrans (after the first few wars, <BR>
anyway) probably actually had more high TL (TL11) ship building <BR>
capacity than just about anywhere outside Vland sector. The Vilani were <BR>
paranoid about the J2 secret, and managed to keep it for thousands of <BR>
years. This suggests to me that very few places outside Vland itself <BR>
would've had the capacity to produce TL11 J-drives. Thus most provincal <BR>
manufactured ships, while they might be TL11 in other areas, would have <BR>
TL10 J-drives and thus until the Vilani realised that the Terrans were <BR>
a serious threat and deployed major assets from their strategic <BR>
reserves there would probably have been only a few battle groups with <BR>
J2 capability.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:54:47 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:27:28 -0600<BR>
>From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Basically, if you are thinking of worrying about cooling in<BR>
>Traveller, don't.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I wasn't worried just interested.<BR>
<BR>
Well my point was that coolant fluids would be an inherant<BR>
portion of a fission/fusion reactor to enable conversion<BR>
of heat energy to the far more usefull electrical form.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 21:22:52 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nukes in Space!<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:43:18 -0500<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
>Subject: Nukes in Space!<BR>
><BR>
> >>Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.  Typical designs for space<BR>
craft<BR>
> >>using fusion planets are not meant to enter atmosphere.<BR>
> >I guess the streamlining/airframe option for spacecraft is<BR>
> >really all about looks then if none of these ships are suposed<BR>
> >to enter the atmosphere. <grin><BR>
><BR>
>Style man...it's where it's at!<BR>
>Low tech interplanetary ships are build in orbit and have planetary<BR>
>landers.  If they are high enough tech to land, and take off again, then<BR>
>they probably have nice fusion reactors<BR>
<BR>
Unless they are too small to comfortably fit the minimum size<BR>
fusion reaction or don't need anything near the amount of<BR>
energy generated by it.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
> >directly. It generates heat which transfers to the cooling liquid<BR>
> >which becomes steam which drives a turbine attached to an<BR>
> >alternator/generator. This steam then needs to be cooled so that<BR>
> >it can be used to cool the reactor core again. Yes you can radiate<BR>
> >that heat to space but you still need coolant for the power<BR>
> >plant to work.<BR>
><BR>
>This much has been clear to me since I visited the SM1 when was 10....<BR>
>You want to cool the steam, run a loop of pipe out a bit to a cooling tank,<BR>
>and then pump the nice cool water back toward the reactor.  You would<BR>
>probably have to heat the tank to keep the water from freezing.<BR>
<BR>
Yes the cooling mechanism I said a fission/fusion plant will need<BR>
that was origionally ridiculed as unnecesary.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >>You only have to shield one side as well. The side facing the rest of<BR>
the<BR>
> >>ship.  The reactor sits out from the rest of the ship.<BR>
> >Well I was thinking in terms of the other traveller starship<BR>
> >components that are all accesible in the ship for maintanance<BR>
> >purposes.<BR>
><BR>
>Traveller ships use fusion.<BR>
<BR>
This thread started when we were discussing low power<BR>
requirement ships. According to FFS there is a window<BR>
in TL 9 through 11 where a fission plant can be made<BR>
smaller than a fusion plant. For smaller ships at these<BR>
TL's a fission plant is (again acording to FFS) the most efficient<BR>
alternative down to it's minimum size.<BR>
<BR>
>If you want a fission plant inside, then it get's mucking huge.<BR>
<BR>
Not according to FFS.<BR>
<BR>
>Simpler engineering to place it outside.  Maintenance is done by remote<BR>
units.<BR>
<BR>
Making it really vulnerable to damage (either combat or collision)<BR>
and more dificult to repair/service.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >>This is the kind of stuff you run into out in boonies of Traveller<BR>
> >>space.  It's pretty cheap and low tech.<BR>
> >>"Ya, we're Astronauts!  Check out our ship.  It can make the run to the<BR>
> >>Asteroid Belt in just under six months!"<BR>
><BR>
> >Actually the original premise is that these plants would be in use<BR>
> >in the Imperium at lower than the published minimum fusion<BR>
> >plant requirements. (originally it was about using fission plants<BR>
> >in that role)<BR>
><BR>
>Not all ships are streamlined.  Look at the Orrimot, with it's hamster<BR>
cages.<BR>
>http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/bard/sara/sara5018.html<BR>
><BR>
>Hell, even the clunky old Orrmot uses Fusion.<BR>
<BR>
But alot of smaller ships are. And smaller ships are what I'm<BR>
talking about here.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:09:46 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:52:36 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>I find it despicable that the anti-nuke types have used tactics that<BR>
>actually result in *increased* risks bercause of all the waste piling<BR>
>up in places never intended to do more than store stuff until it could<BR>
>be shipped for permanent disposal, or for reprocessing.<BR>
<BR>
And I find it unconsionable that the nuclear power industry<BR>
foisted large expensive nuclear plants on us without first figuring out<BR>
what they were going to do about the radioactive waste. As far as<BR>
I can tell the plan was to just dump it any ol' where *untill* the<BR>
anti-nukes pointed out the hazzards.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> Yep.<BR>
>> Can't be to carefull about that heat polution, no sir.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, considering that 90% of the energy "input" (fuel) of a power<BR>
>plant winds up as environmental heat *before* doing useful work, it's<BR>
>actually a valid consideration in the long run.<BR>
<BR>
I actually agree with you on this one (I have to watch<BR>
where I stick in those silly voices.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:18:12 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:33:41 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
>> directly.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, it *is*. At least if your reactor uses electrostatic<BR>
>confinement!<BR>
<BR>
Oops missed that.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>But that sort of reactor is rather large and somewhat fragile. But it's<BR>
>at least as likely to be practical as any other. Check Analog a few<BR>
>months back. One of the science columns tells you how to build such a<BR>
>reactor. It won't achieve "breakeven" (produce more power than it takes<BR>
>to keep it running), but it'll produce *lots* of fusion neutrons..<BR>
<BR>
If it can't breakeven then it isn't a power plant it's a power drain.<BR>
But if it could be made to breakeven it's a candidate.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>>You only have to shield one side as well. The side facing the rest of the<BR>
>>>ship.  The reactor sits out from the rest of the ship.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Well I was thinking in terms of the other traveller starship<BR>
>> components that are all accesible in the ship for maintanance<BR>
>> purposes.<BR>
><BR>
>So you put them on the same side of the shielding as the crew. This may<BR>
>have the reactor in the *nose* of the ship, though for a NERVA type<BR>
>design it'd be in the tail.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was thinking in terms of the<BR>
fission reactor being accesable for maintenance like the other<BR>
components.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:30:10 -0500<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 00:12:20 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>> Yup It's NIMBY all right. Would you like all of the high level nuclear<BR>
>> waste from the Imperium in *your* backyard? We're looking for volunteers.<BR>
>> Any takers?<BR>
><BR>
>The whole Imperium? No. The whole US? Sure. The whole planet, maybe.<BR>
<BR>
That's one volunteer.<BR>
<BR>
>Still, the risks involved aren't all that big. They are just *new*<BR>
>risks. Ones people aren't used to.<BR>
<BR>
Ones with ramifications that might not all have been discovered<BR>
yet.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne<BR>
<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
Veni, Vidi, Vacca.<BR>
I came, I saw, I had a cow<BR>
   - Bart Caeser<BR>
+++++++++++++++++++++<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:28:16 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Miniatures photo page, let me try this again...<BR>
<BR>
>My miniatures page is at <BR>
>    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
><BR>
>for anyone that may have missed the original post.<BR>
><BR>
>Glenn<BR>
<BR>
 Nice pictures. Your note on the Shuttle was a bit odd, though. The 95 ton <BR>
Shuttle has been around since very early CT, and that look for it first <BR>
appeared attached to the too small version of it from Spinward Marches <BR>
Campaign and (I think) Traders and Gunboats, as well as The Traveller Book <BR>
and a number of JTAS pictures...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:52:22 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
IIRC the hull size limit is imposed by the computers, so using rocks<BR>
for hulls won't help.<BR>
<BR>
Actually this size limit could well explain the Terran preference for<BR>
missile weapons (if I'm remembering Imperium correctly, which I may not<BR>
be, seeing as I don't own it).<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
Computers limit hull sizes??? So, If Terra has enhanced computer tech, they CAN<BR>
have equal hulls as Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Can both CT Gearheads and Imperium players tell me the following:<BR>
<BR>
Terran Tech possbilities at TTL9,10 (with computer tech 11 or 12)<BR>
Terran Force Structure at Start of Imperium<BR>
Terrna Units at Start of Imperium, and weapon mix.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have a copy of Imperium (especially in Australia) that I can look<BR>
at.<BR>
<BR>
At start of war, I forsee TL9 starships with SOME TL10 equipment with TL11<BR>
computers. As stated before, I do think Terra should take a hit with manouver<BR>
drives(either TL8 M drive, Fusion Torch drives or some other crappy hinderance),<BR>
but should be able to do TACTICAL microjumps (Ie jump from a gas gaint to 100d<BR>
to a planet in formation). Imagine the chaos caused when a Terran Taskforce<BR>
drops in at 100d and does a mass swarm missile attack on a vilani picket or<BR>
better yet a Pearl Habour<BR>
<BR>
Darryl.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 06:39:01 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
At 9:19 PM -0900 2/21/2000, Richard Martin wrote:<BR>
>So Terry, where did you get this information?? In actuality, only a<BR>
>handful of states is "Homosexuality" considered a crime. What is<BR>
>unfortunate that bigotry is not condsidered a crime... What you are<BR>
>probably are referinq to is several sex acts such as sodomy, which is a<BR>
>crime regardless who performs it, either hetero or homo.. It is just not<BR>
>usually enforced.<BR>
<BR>
It is effectively illegal to be homosexual in several states, though<BR>
as you say, if you totaly abstain you can't be arrested.  There are<BR>
states, though, where acts between men are illegal where they are not<BR>
illegal between a man and a woman and there are also states where<BR>
acts are illegal between unmarried people.  Since homosexual can't<BR>
get married (currently), they can't ever be legal for those acts.<BR>
<BR>
Note that I don't endorse any of this, it's just a fact.  These are<BR>
just a few of many state laws which should be repealed.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:08:30 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: land ownership<BR>
<BR>
It hath been written:<BR>
<BR>
"The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The<BR>
government<BR>
holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really<BR>
get sick<BR>
of the federal government thinking it owns land or has<BR>
its<BR>
money.  All of that is *mine* and every other<BR>
citizens'."<BR>
<BR>
Indeed! I seem to recall a Monty Python sketch where a<BR>
citizen tried to take the Prime Minister's limousine<BR>
for a ride to the pub to get a pint. When the bobbie<BR>
outside Downing St argued with him, he said, "but it<BR>
belongs to the public! And I'm the public, aren't I?"<BR>
<BR>
The ever-annoying difference between theory and<BR>
practice, eh?<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:08:57 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: houstonshocky@webtv.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
<BR>
- --WebTV-Mail-14850-10779<BR>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit<BR>
<BR>
Well, here is one thread from it .... this thread has been going on now<BR>
for bout 15 hours <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --WebTV-Mail-14850-10779<BR>
Content-Description: signature<BR>
Content-Disposition: Inline<BR>
Content-Type: Text/HTML; Charset=US-ASCII<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><B><tt><I><A HREF="http://www.wunderground.com/US/TX/Houston.html"> <img
src="http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/defaultorig_both/US/TX/Houston.gif" 
 alt="Click for Houston, Texas Forecast" height=60
width=468></A><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<center><BR>
<table bgcolor="black" width="100%"><BR>
<tr><th><img<BR>
src="http://members.tripod.com/~houstonshocky/images/texas_animated_flag.gif"></th><BR>
<th><A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~houstonshocky/linda">Linda's
Texas Ice House</A></B></B><BR>
Houston, TX</I></th><th><imgsrc="http://members.tripod.com/~houstonshocky/images/texas_animated_flag.gif"></th></tr></table></center><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --WebTV-Mail-14850-10779--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 22:25:05 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: cooling ships<BR>
<BR>
At 12:53 PM -0500 2/16/2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>Bolie Williams IV writes:<BR>
><snipped><BR>
>>Assuming that a spaceship is a perfect radiating body and a<BR>
>>space background temperature of 4 K, a 200 ton far trader under<BR>
>>full thrust generates about 60 megawatts.  To radiate this<BR>
>>amount of heat would require a skin temperature of about 700<BR>
>>Celsius.  No ship is going to be a perfect radiator, so the<BR>
>>actual temperature will be higher.  This is regardless of the<BR>
>>type of cooling system the powerplant uses.  All that can do is<BR>
>>get the heat to the skin of the ship rather than heating the<BR>
>>whole ship up on the way to the skin.<BR>
><snipped><BR>
><BR>
>	Is the 60 megawatts mentioned above the electrical power<BR>
>	output only, or does it include the waste heat and the<BR>
>	energy being carried away by the reaction mass?  IMTU,<BR>
>	insulation of the power plant and maneuver drive are<BR>
>	stupidly efficient, and I assume that most of the extra<BR>
>	heat leaves with the propellant and actual electrical<BR>
>	generation is relatively low.<BR>
<BR>
I took the power required for the thrusters on a 200 ton far<BR>
trader in GURPS Traveller.  Being reactionless, I assumed that<BR>
a trivial amount of power was actually emitted from the drive<BR>
itself.  It's possible that the energy is converted to kinetic<BR>
energy and so a large portion is not waste heat.  It was the<BR>
easiest number for me to pull up.<BR>
<BR>
Also, not that larger ships will have more trouble as the<BR>
energy generation will most likely go up with the volume while<BR>
the surface area goes up with the volume ^ (2/3) so you end<BR>
up with less area per volume.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:21:46 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: re Language<BR>
<BR>
> The Aslan written forms are called Trokh. I don't recall if this is<BR>
>universal...<BR>
> The K'kree Module gives no distinct name for their language.<BR>
><BR>
>GC<BR>
Trokh is the name of the whole language for the aslan. It translates as<BR>
"Belly".<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:45:13 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 12:19 PM 2/21/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > 8 Stand behind the toilet as far as you can, and quickly<BR>
> >     lift both lids.  The now-clean cat will rocket out of the toilet,<BR>
> >     and run outside where he will dry himself.<BR>
> <BR>
> 8b Alternatively, the cat will hit relativistic speeds getting under the<BR>
> couch, where it will roll about in the dust bunnies and corn chip<BR>
> fragments. It will emerge an hour later, looking like some sort of bag-cat<BR>
> coming off a three-day catnip bender.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, exactly how much damage will a near-C cat do?  Having never<BR>
cohabited with a cat, I profess ignorance of this matter.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:45:18 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Actually this size limit could well explain the Terran preference for<BR>
> missile weapons (if I'm remembering Imperium correctly, which I may not<BR>
> be, seeing as I don't own it).<BR>
<BR>
I do own it, and it's the other way around.  The Vilani are missile<BR>
fans, while the Terrans are believers in beam weapons.<BR>
<BR>
At this point, using the previously-suggested handwave that the Terrans<BR>
had computers at TL 11, you then can see why the Terrans preferred beam<BR>
weapons.  After all, effective beam weapons require good computers,<BR>
while effective missiles require both good computers _and_ efficient<BR>
missile drive systems.  The Terrans, with an overall TL of 9-10,<BR>
couldn't easily build missiles that had enough thrust to be useful in<BR>
combat against the Vilani.  They therefore linked their TL 9-10 lasers<BR>
and PAWs to TL 11 fire control systems, and had a merry old time. <BR>
Vilani ships, OTOH, tended to use missiles as their primary weapon. <BR>
Missiles, when equipped with efficient drives, require less power from<BR>
the launching vessel, and are thus more efficient than power-hungry beam<BR>
weapons.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:56:44 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote :-<BR>
>  No, what I was looking for was a bit more "conservative": Life as we know<BR>
> it, but ertrapolated into a future where some if it has managed to adapt to<BR>
> hard vacuum, zero-G and hard radiation. (Would be a damn good enemy race<BR>
> fpor a TV show, don't you aggree? :-) )<BR>
<BR>
The big problem for 'life as we know it' [reliant on liquid solvents for<BR>
biochemistry to happen in] is evolving some sort of pressure jacket to<BR>
prevent tissue dessication. A shell of silicates or ices might be a<BR>
viable partial solution. Our hypothetical creatures may just pop in and<BR>
out of their shells briefly to feed/fight/reproduce (a couple of<BR>
minutes endurance would be physiologically possible).<BR>
<BR>
Zero-G would be an advantage - compare the many body shapes taken by<BR>
aquatic (or micro-organisms) vs. land-based ones.<BR>
<BR>
Background radiation may be advantageous in that it could provide an<BR>
energy source (thermal - so some sort of other mass [a planetoid?] is<BR>
required) as well as acting as an evolutionary stimulus.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose solid-state 'biochemistry' could be postulated to get around<BR>
this but this is sort of limiting (more Cymbeline chips? Great...).<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:57:40 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> The micro reactor uses less material for a given power output, and is<BR>
> easily refueled. Alas, RTGs are a bitch to refuel.<BR>
Cracking open the units to swap the pellets out is difficult, I agree.<BR>
But given a lifespan of many years, perhaps the idea would be to swap in<BR>
a new one and recycle the 'used' unit at the factory? Treat the RTG as a<BR>
very long-lived battery.<BR>
<BR>
A system such as you have described which could have its 'electrolyte'<BR>
swapped out periodically like the vanadium fuel cell currently under<BR>
test would be much more convenient.<BR>
<BR>
> I think we'd *both* rather have space-based solar power than any of the<BR>
> other choices.<BR>
Beaming the power to the ground is going to be problematic. If people<BR>
are neurotic about other forms of radiation... gigawatts of microwaves<BR>
and big rectennae probably aren't going to win any support.<BR>
<BR>
David Shayne wrote :-<BR>
> One of the more succesful aplications of solar power is the<BR>
> solar hot water heater:<BR>
<snip><BR>
> Free hot water whenever the<BR>
> sun is out. Not hot enough to run a turbine but it does<BR>
> save a good deal of gas/electricity that would otherwise<BR>
> be used for that purpose.<BR>
The utility of this device is not under dispute (although some might<BR>
object to the increased risk of lung disease from plywood manufacture<BR>
and the nasty solvents that could be in the paint). <BR>
<BR>
The problem is finding some source of energy to meet the basal power<BR>
load of an industrialised city, nation, or Traveller-style spacecraft<BR>
bristling with power intensive equipment.<BR>
<BR>
Making photovoltaic cells is an intrinsically dirty business, just like<BR>
making silicon chips. Arsine, diborane and many of the other dopants and<BR>
solvents used in these industries make radioactive waste look relatively<BR>
benign from a toxicological standpoint.<BR>
<BR>
> Untill somebody builds one I'll have to treat it as vaporware. The<BR>
> claims of proponents are frequently exagerated in order to<BR>
> gain financial support for projects/technologies. I'm not<BR>
> saying it's not possible. I'm saying prove it first.<BR>
<BR>
Regrettably the Californian wind/solar power experiment is not working<BR>
well. The British and European trials are looking a little better.<BR>
<BR>
It looks like *any* cost analysis that reliably incorporates all<BR>
fabrication and setup costs tends to make anything we do in regard with<BR>
energy generation environmentally costly.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:57:54 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Population growth<BR>
<BR>
John Snead wrote :-<BR>
> The question then becomes why the Imperium has such a large<BR>
> population.<BR>
The demographic transition that is taking place here may be a function<BR>
of resource availability, or some hitherto unrecognised factor putting<BR>
limits on fertility.<BR>
<BR>
You may be aware of Skarkebek's(sp?) work on falling sperm counts in<BR>
Europe and North America. The small but growing body of evidence<BR>
pointing to environmental biological response modifiers [oestrogen-like<BR>
pollutants, mainly] having effects on various animal species is<BR>
concerning.<BR>
<BR>
On a more optimistic note, the Imperium has lots of room for people to<BR>
spread out in. A complex mix of historical, cultural and economic<BR>
factors must have shaped overall population growth patterns.<BR>
<BR>
Not so seriously :- the average population of a system is in the tens of<BR>
millions anyway, isn't it? 11000 systems, many with the population of a<BR>
small to middling nation/city/town in the RW...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1958<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1959</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 23 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1959<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
light sails<BR>
Nuclear prop planes<BR>
waste and real waste<BR>
hull size as limited by computer USP<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Miniatures photo page<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
RE: human habitable planets<BR>
RE: re Language<BR>
RE: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
RE: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
RE: Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
Nuclear Warheads<BR>
RE: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
RE: A Real World<BR>
Re Power Plants<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:06:07 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: light sails<BR>
<BR>
Covered in the Award winning GDW publication Fire, Fusion & Steel for TNE.<BR>
<BR>
Mitch "Ted7" Schwartz wrote up some in system racers and rules for such races.<BR>
<BR>
Last I heard, BITS was going to do *something* with his work.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
travhead.geo@yahoo.com -- Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:09:44 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Nuclear prop planes<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson puts into the ether:<BR>
 >If you want a *big* plane that can stay up for years, go with the AF's<BR>
 >design for a reactor using the steam turbine to drive propellers!<BR>
<BR>
The AF was seriously considering this at one point.  There were AF <BR>
personnel run through both the Army & Navy nuclear training programs back <BR>
in the 60's.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>
- ----<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
"The Clintonites, like pod people from a "Star Trek" adventure, have peeled<BR>
off the thin layer of centrist rhetoric that they wore for the presidential<BR>
campaign. We now learn that they are people genetically bred to inhabit the<BR>
public sector. Their oxygen source is the moisture of taxes, which are <BR>
remitted<BR>
by the aliens in the private sector." -- Wall Street Journal February 19, 1993<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:35:02 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: waste and real waste<BR>
<BR>
 >>I find it despicable that the anti-nuke types have used tactics that<BR>
 >>actually result in *increased* risks bercause of all the waste piling<BR>
 >>up in places never intended to do more than store stuff until it could<BR>
 >>be shipped for permanent disposal, or for reprocessing.<BR>
 >And I find it unconsionable that the nuclear power industry<BR>
 >foisted large expensive nuclear plants on us without first figuring out<BR>
 >what they were going to do about the radioactive waste. As far as<BR>
 >I can tell the plan was to just dump it any ol' where *untill* the<BR>
 >anti-nukes pointed out the hazzards.<BR>
<BR>
The actual waste product is rather small, as Eric has pointed out.<BR>
Most of fuel waste can be converted back to usable fuel.  Last I looked <BR>
into, the US government was the only agency in the US doing this.  Once the <BR>
feds got out of the business, they regulated everyone else in the country <BR>
out of even trying it.  This is part of previously mentioned problem of <BR>
making the situation even worse in the name of trying to improve it.<BR>
<BR>
Nukes plants are *big* potential problems, but they can be designed so <BR>
operation can be safer than going to the hospital.  The anti-nuke activists <BR>
used a lot of FUAD in their dealings with the general public.<BR>
<BR>
The rest of the waste is bulky, short half-life stuff like the paper <BR>
jumpsuits worn once and disposed of.<BR>
<BR>
The nuclear power industry in the US & Canada has been safer than coal <BR>
fired plants for instance.<BR>
Those things are really dangerous...not just the radiation hazard <BR>
either.  They don't burn lumps of coal, the burn coal ground down to a <BR>
microfine dust.  The stuff is more dangerous than gasoline fumes.<BR>
<BR>
The really dangerous part of any power planet is the high pressure steam <BR>
planet.  A leak in one of those pipes releases a near invisible jet of <BR>
pressurized steam that you probably won't hear because of the background <BR>
noise.  You'll notice it when it cuts you down to the bone...<BR>
<BR>
People I know who have been in power generation went through a lot of <BR>
brooms looking for these kind of leaks.<BR>
<BR>
The switching yard isn't very safe either.  They use 10 foot fiberglass <BR>
rods to flip the switches for a reason.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for<BR>
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:28:51 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: hull size as limited by computer USP<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
...<BR>
>weighs 5500 tons.  However, your maximum hull size as limited by maximum<BR>
>computer size is<BR>
><BR>
>1,000 tons at TL 8<BR>
>4,000 tons at TL 9<BR>
>10,000 tons at TL 10<BR>
>50,000 tons at TL 11<BR>
<BR>
  Per HG2, pps. 26 & 28, the charts show "ship (USP) requiring this<BR>
computer as a minimum". Thus, <K @ TL 9 ( =9,999 Dt), <P @ TL A ( =<BR>
49,999 Dt), and <R @ TL B ( =99,999 Dt). So if you grant the Terrans<BR>
TL 9 or A at the start of the First IW, and a +1 comp TL, then there<BR>
ship size starts to look respectable.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:28:56 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
...<BR>
>that in my many playing of "Imperium", I would have loved to have sicced some <BR>
>battleriders on those rascally Vilani, but unfortunately the Terrans never <BR>
>invented them.  They would have been ideal for the Terrans strategic <BR>
>situation, since they could be cranked out to function both as defensive <BR>
>monitors and as offensive strike craft.<BR>
<BR>
  Ah, but what _size_ are the "fighters" listed; if they're big enough<BR>
boats then their "motherships" are rider-tenders in fact.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:37:43 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Miniatures photo page<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: Miniatures photo page, let me try this again...<BR>
><BR>
>>My miniatures page is at <BR>
>>    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
...<BR>
>Scout / Courier - RAFM, Inc. TNE Series No. 5801<BR>
><BR>
>This miniature was missing a turret when I received it. I carved the missle<BR>
launcher<BR>
>from hardened epoxy as a replacement.<BR>
<BR>
  None of the Scout mini's that I've seen were meant to have a turret;<BR>
perhaps there was a change in the casting/design at some point?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:48:50 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
>Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
...<BR>
>IIRC the hull size limit is imposed by the computers, so using rocks <BR>
>for hulls won't help.<BR>
<BR>
  Please explain the capacity of the individual ships in the ESA mission<BR>
that reached the Islands, in 500,000 words or less. Tautologies and<BR>
circular arguments are expected, but over-use may result in loss of marks<BR>
or an automatic draft into the Bureaucracy. (50 marks)<BR>
<BR>
 "Yes, we have no inconsistencies here today"<BR>
<BR>
The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its Product"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:52:14 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote :-<BR>
>>  No, what I was looking for was a bit more "conservative": Life <BR>
>> as we know it, but ertrapolated into a future where some if it <BR>
>> has managed to adapt to hard vacuum, zero-G and hard <BR>
>> radiation. (Would be a damn good enemy race for a TV show, <BR>
>> don't you aggree? :-) )<BR>
<BR>
>The big problem for 'life as we know it' [reliant on liquid solvents for<BR>
>biochemistry to happen in] is evolving some sort of pressure <BR>
>jacket to prevent tissue dessication. A shell of silicates or ices <BR>
>might be a viable partial solution. Our hypothetical creatures may <BR>
>just pop in and out of their shells briefly to feed/fight/reproduce (a <BR>
>couple of minutes endurance would be physiologically possible).<BR>
<BR>
Well, I do now one possible candidate for at least temporary <BR>
survival in a vacuum.  I saw this show on life around deep sea vents <BR>
a while back.  There were these small (perhaps 4-5 inches across) <BR>
white crabs down there.  They could easily survive trips from down <BR>
there (*200* atm pressure) to the surface, one crab lived through <BR>
multiple trips w/o harm.  They also lived in the near-freezing water <BR>
away from the vents and could spend brief amounts of time in near <BR>
the vents in water well over 250 degrees F (the pressure prevented <BR>
water from boiling normally).  I'd put bets on their ability to survive <BR>
moderate-term exposure to vacuum if they had an air supply, and <BR>
even w/o one I'd imagine they could survive it for most of an hour <BR>
(crabs can live out of water a surprising amount of time).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:56:14 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
>>My miniatures page is at <BR>
>>    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
...<BR>
>These are the RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures.<BR>
>Within brackets is the quantity of each which I own.<BR>
><BR>
>Traveller by RAFM: (circa 1992) <BR>
>[ ]     5797 Raiders and Traders - never produced <BR>
>[ ]     5798 Mantis Class Battle Cruiser - never produced <BR>
>[ ]     5799 Freighters and Escort - never produced <BR>
<BR>
  Were those three catalog numbers intended to be boxed sets of<BR>
some sort? _That_ would have been neat - the old Star Frontiers<BR>
boxed sets of TSR's were nice enough, and they were much cruder<BR>
castings than RAFM's TNE work.<BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>[ ]     5810 Launch <BR>
<BR>
  I never bothered buying any of these - they looked too much like all<BR>
of the other little greeblies to justify $5 for 5 of the teensy little<BR>
things, and then throwing them in a drawer for perma-storage...<BR>
<BR>
  Of course, one of the fellows I game with picked up a bag _full_ of<BR>
the damned things on Sunday; we're unsure whether to use them as space<BR>
fighters or as missiles for 2300 AD :><BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:24:14 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Eric Henry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 12:31 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: human habitable planets<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I have Isaac Asimov's _Habitable Planets for Man_ a boook based on Stephen<BR>
> Dole's RAND study _Planet's for Man_.  It discusses what planets would be<BR>
> suitable for human life "as is", without need for ecosystem<BR>
> modifications or<BR>
> handwaving, and what stars might hold these planets.  However, the book is<BR>
> over 30 years old.<BR>
><BR>
> Is there any more modern data which would suggest what stars might hold<BR>
> habitable planets?  I am looking for specific spectral classes<BR>
<BR>
> g0 through<BR>
> g9 is obvious ).  In addition, what distance between binaries would allow<BR>
> the formation of a habitalbe planet?  any?<BR>
><BR>
I read in a recent Astronomy magazine that both Alpha Centuari A and B<BR>
orbited far enough apart that a planet in either stars life zone would be in<BR>
a stable orbit. Proxima Centuari on the other hand, unpleasant, cool M class<BR>
star still suffering from massive flares.<BR>
<BR>
Then there that star called Sol, nominally G2V but actually a variable with<BR>
a small, but measurable increase in energy output as it ages. To paraphrase<BR>
"I don't think this star is entirely stable"<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:24:13 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: re Language<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of William F.<BR>
> Hostman<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 9:22 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
> Subject: re Language<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > The Aslan written forms are called Trokh. I don't recall if this is<BR>
> >universal...<BR>
> > The K'kree Module gives no distinct name for their language.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >GC<BR>
> Trokh is the name of the whole language for the aslan. It translates as<BR>
> "Belly".<BR>
><BR>
> Actually Trokh is the name of the language spoken by those Aslan whom the<BR>
hierate considers true Aslan. It is not necessarily the only language spoken<BR>
by Aslan who do not adhere to Hierate beliefs. Though both Hierate and<BR>
Imperial Asland would consider them to be not Aslan.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:24:11 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rupert<BR>
> Boleyn<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 7:25 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 23 Feb 00, at 11:34, dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > >>><BR>
> > I guess the mechanics of CT are what's killing me here.  (It's<BR>
> what I know<BR>
> > and love, quirks and all, so I probably won't be changing any<BR>
> time soon.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Under high guard rules you can build a particle accelerator at TL 8 that<BR>
> > weighs 5500 tons.  However, your maximum hull size as limited by maximum<BR>
> > computer size is<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 1,000 tons at TL 8<BR>
> > 4,000 tons at TL 9<BR>
> > 10,000 tons at TL 10<BR>
> > 50,000 tons at TL 11<BR>
> > <<<<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The quick and dirty method (which I would hevily lobby for) would be<BR>
> > asteroid hulls. Unlimited size, tough in defence, cheap as mud.<BR>
><BR>
> IIRC the hull size limit is imposed by the computers, so using rocks<BR>
> for hulls won't help.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually this size limit could well explain the Terran preference for<BR>
> missile weapons (if I'm remembering Imperium correctly, which I may not<BR>
> be, seeing as I don't own it).<BR>
><BR>
> > >>><BR>
> > Perhaps the Terrans hit TL 10 very quickly after 1st contact<BR>
> i.e. the "oh<BR>
> > my god there is a huge empire out there syndrome."  You could start<BR>
> > building halfway decent spinal mounted ships at that point 4500<BR>
> tons at tl<BR>
> > 10. <<<<BR>
> ><BR>
> > You could allways have a hodgepodge of tech for Terra. It is concievable<BR>
> > that M drives are a TL behind normal TL (and it ties in with<BR>
> the origin of<BR>
> > Terran J drive discovery, they where looking for a better M drive and<BR>
> > actually used J drives for microjumps in system.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >>><clipped><BR>
<BR>
Actually as the Solomani designed all the standard TL levels (that is why<BR>
Earth is used as the standard) it is more likely the Vilani who would have<BR>
the hodge-podge of technology.<BR>
<BR>
Incidently doesn't the space shuttle when loaded exceed the computer control<BR>
limit for TL8, let alone TL7 which is what most of the shuttle technology<BR>
would be at based on when they were designed and built?<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:28:54 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steven<BR>
> Hudson<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2000 12:49 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >IIRC the hull size limit is imposed by the computers, so using rocks<BR>
> >for hulls won't help.<BR>
><BR>
>   Please explain the capacity of the individual ships in the ESA mission<BR>
> that reached the Islands, in 500,000 words or less. Tautologies and<BR>
> circular arguments are expected, but over-use may result in loss of marks<BR>
> or an automatic draft into the Bureaucracy. (50 marks)<BR>
><BR>
>  "Yes, we have no inconsistencies here today"<BR>
><BR>
> What inconsistancy, simply use computer banks rather than individual<BR>
computers and you can then build and control hulls of any displacement. IMHO<BR>
the limiting factor in ship size was cost not computing power.<BR>
<BR>
TL9 Warships are incredibly expensive for their capability. Just try (In<BR>
FFS1) building a TL9 Light Cruiser and a TL10 equivelant and you will see<BR>
what I mean.<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:24:10 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure where I read it, but I remember seeing a number of low tech<BR>
starships designs which used a larger number of computers networked to<BR>
provide the necessary computing power required by larger ships. For example<BR>
instead of three computers for a starship (primary and 2 backups) you would<BR>
have three computer banks, each bank containing however many computers were<BR>
needed. So for example a TL9 heavy cruiser may require nine computers in<BR>
three banks.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:32:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
I believe this has been covered before, but could someone advise on how<BR>
close a nuclear warhead would have to get to its target in space in order to<BR>
adversely effect the target for a given yield. I need this information for a<BR>
TNE game where I have TL7,8 & 9 spacecraft armed with missiles only, which<BR>
are fitted with conventional nukes.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:24:17 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 3:13 PM<BR>
> To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>  >Also, if it's a true fusion rocket as opposed to using a fusion reactor<BR>
>  >to heat fuel, you'll have a lot of gamma pouring out the tail end.<BR>
><BR>
> The only fusion (and fission) rockets I'm aware of are the kind where the<BR>
> reactor is used to heat the fuel and push it out the tail end.  What are<BR>
> the "true" fusion rockets that spit out gamma rays?  Do you mean<BR>
> a nuclear<BR>
> impulse engine like in project Orion (nuclear explosions pushing<BR>
> against a<BR>
> reaction plate)?  Has anyone done rules for these engines in Traveller?<BR>
><BR>
> Also, how feasible are fission or fusion _jet_ engines for<BR>
> atmospheric use<BR>
> (using air as a working fluid, with or without mixing some form<BR>
> of fuel in<BR>
> for "reheat")?  Have any real world tests been done on such engines?<BR>
><BR>
> Final questions: Has anyone done rules for Traveller on light<BR>
> sail "engines"?<BR>
> How about ion rockets?  Anyone got rules for a "hard SF" version<BR>
> of Trav...<BR>
> say TL-9, no psi, no anti-grav, maybe jump drive as the one<BR>
> speculative bit?<BR>
><BR>
> Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Fire Fusion & Steel 1 (The one for Traveller New Era) covered these<BR>
technologies, I don't know about the T4 version it never reached this part<BR>
of the planet. It also had sequences for alternative FTL drives, wormholes,<BR>
stutterwarp etc.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:24:16 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: A Real World<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 2:19 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: A Real World<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 2/22/00 3:01:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,<BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << Ex post facto laws. I.E. "retroactive laws"... making something you did<BR>
>  illegal *after* you did it, and still being able to arrest and convict<BR>
>  you of violating that law. I doubt that the Imperium will allow these<BR>
>  as they make things just *too* uncertain.<BR>
>   >><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> How about Debtor's Prison? That would be a cool one. Add court<BR>
> costs and high<BR>
> interest rates, as well as a per day charge for confinement, and the five<BR>
> credits the party was short of at the bar could cost them their ship and<BR>
> enslave them for life.<BR>
><BR>
> Another good one would be to have one of your players who likes<BR>
> to say "My<BR>
> God" or something like that on or going to a planet with a clause<BR>
> of no state<BR>
> sponsered religion, have them see something cool while<BR>
> delievering the mail<BR>
> charter, the player says the words, and you nail them for a<BR>
> constitutional<BR>
> violation for speaking religion while part of the government.<BR>
> Then you assign<BR>
> the death penalty.<BR>
><BR>
How about "All together now... and were bound for Botany Bay."<BR>
After all someone has to colonise those marginal worlds and keep the pesky<BR>
Zhos, Catsand Dogs out don't they!<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:06:57 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Power Plants<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>>> A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
>>> directly.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Actually, it *is*. At least if your reactor uses electrostatic<BR>
>>confinement!<BR>
><BR>
>Oops missed that.<BR>
><BR>
>><BR>
>>But that sort of reactor is rather large and somewhat fragile. But it's<BR>
>>at least as likely to be practical as any other. Check Analog a few<BR>
>>months back. One of the science columns tells you how to build such a<BR>
>>reactor. It won't achieve "breakeven" (produce more power than it takes<BR>
>>to keep it running), but it'll produce *lots* of fusion neutrons..<BR>
><BR>
>If it can't breakeven then it isn't a power plant it's a power drain.<BR>
>But if it could be made to breakeven it's a candidate.<BR>
<BR>
There are a couple of other ways to derive energy: If the right shielding<BR>
is used, you can get an induced current from the gamma radiation. And you<BR>
can generate more EMF radiation as a cascade effect of alpha bombardment<BR>
(And, IIRC, Neutron bombardment, but I'm not certain there) of special<BR>
shielding layers.<BR>
<BR>
To give an example, you focus the gamma through a shielding window. You run<BR>
your current induction runs so that the flow is set as close to parallel to<BR>
the gamma wave motion as is practical, with multiple runs, and the return<BR>
loops being outside the "gamma-illuminated-arc". You will generate some<BR>
additional current that way; more is likely with the room-temp<BR>
superconductors postulated in traveller. BTW, for best results, you have<BR>
the window pointed through a gamma-windowed segment of the exterior hull.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, I assume the following are essential for practical fusion, based upon<BR>
the tech level charts from Mega Traveller (Ref's Manual and Ref's<BR>
Companion) and Striker (which was CT):<BR>
Gravitics, Room-temp superconductors, better fusion reaction understanding,<BR>
nuclear-force manipulation.<BR>
<BR>
This last shows up in several disparate applications, IMHO: Repulsors,<BR>
Tractors,  Dampers, Screens (Meson, Black Globe, white globe), materials<BR>
construction (Superdense and bonded superdense). The level of manipulation<BR>
at TL 9, IMTU, is negligible for most purposes, but is just enough to be<BR>
worth it's drain in terms of reducing particulate radiations; By TL13,<BR>
damper tech equalizes with gravitics as the primary means of fusion<BR>
reaction. By TL 15, gravitcs and repulsors are used, along with damper<BR>
tech, with almost no electromagnetic bottle except for direct current<BR>
induction, plus the EMF-induced current phenomena, with nearly solid-state<BR>
induction media....<BR>
<BR>
Then again, IMTU, Cold Fusion works. (What I've read says it does IRL, just<BR>
no one is sure exactly what it is, but it's NOT fusion as we know it...)<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 00:43:23 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>At 9:19 PM -0900 2/21/2000, Richard Martin wrote:<BR>
>>So Terry, where did you get this information?? In actuality, only a<BR>
>>handful of states is "Homosexuality" considered a crime. What is<BR>
>>unfortunate that bigotry is not condsidered a crime... What you are<BR>
>>probably are referinq to is several sex acts such as sodomy, which is a<BR>
>>crime regardless who performs it, either hetero or homo.. It is just not<BR>
>>usually enforced.<BR>
><BR>
>It is effectively illegal to be homosexual in several states, though<BR>
>as you say, if you totaly abstain you can't be arrested.  There are<BR>
>states, though, where acts between men are illegal where they are not<BR>
>illegal between a man and a woman and there are also states where<BR>
>acts are illegal between unmarried people.  Since homosexual can't<BR>
>get married (currently), they can't ever be legal for those acts.<BR>
><BR>
>Note that I don't endorse any of this, it's just a fact.  These are<BR>
>just a few of many state laws which should be repealed.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, many areas (Some state, some county, some city) have prohibitions<BR>
on certain sexual acts, specifically rectal penetration and/or felatio, as<BR>
forms of sodomy. Some sets of laws restrict further the definition of<BR>
sodomy to be any sexual acts involing the genitailia of at least one<BR>
participant other than vaginal intercourse. A few (as of 1987, the UCMJ as<BR>
warned to incoming troops) go so far as to specify face-to-face copulation,<BR>
or even restrictions to the missionary position.<BR>
<BR>
Many areas still have laws on the books prohibiting extra-marital sex; a<BR>
few are beginning to enforce these laws now. In areas where this is the<BR>
case, it is primarily being used to criminalize juvenile intercourse<BR>
provable via pregnancy, at least from the media coverage. These same laws,<BR>
by virtue of homosexual marriage being prohibited, prohibit sexual acts<BR>
between any unmarried couples, straight or non.<BR>
<BR>
Last I checked, at least one state specified explicitly that males could<BR>
only consent to sex with females, and females to sex with males; that cite<BR>
was dated at the time (I read it in the early 90's, and the cite was from<BR>
the late 70's) but may still have been valid.<BR>
<BR>
US federal law prohibits discrimination based upon sexual preference; it<BR>
does not at all hinder discrimination &/or criminal prosecution based upon<BR>
sexual acts engaged in. That the military can and still does prosecute for<BR>
"displays" of non-heterosexual preference reinforces the distinction: In<BR>
the US military, gay is OK so long as you don't ACT gay. That no outside<BR>
case has successfully made the distinction (at least not done so and been<BR>
publicised), it is often in the aggrieved parties best interests to cloud<BR>
the distinction between preference and action. The respondant/defendant is<BR>
often better off not trying to make the distinction, since they have not<BR>
actually made distinctions based upon acts known to the defendant, but<BR>
usually based upon statements of (or more often assumtions of) gender<BR>
preference.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller: Just how much "full faith and credit" is required of member<BR>
worlds? Personally, I think 100% in imperial actions, and 0% in the actions<BR>
of other member worlds...<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that issues such as marriage, etc, will have no direct bearing on<BR>
non-employees of the 3I for imperial legal issues. IMTU, the imperial<BR>
services will recognize any marriage recognized by a member world of the<BR>
imperium, provided said world's government provides documentation. I've<BR>
used this to both dramaticand comedic effect in one campaign....<BR>
<BR>
<into recollections of a campaign long ago... ok about 4 years ago><BR>
IMTU, Terra has an active ZPG movement, which has forced legalization of<BR>
marriages of any two persons, without regaurd to gender, and in deference<BR>
to Traditional Islam and Traditional Mormonism (no offense to either group<BR>
intended) allowance for up to 5 individuals in one "marital unit" have been<BR>
snuck in. A scout got drunk while on Terra... the player was mildly<BR>
homophobic, the character far moreso... and woke up the morning after<BR>
brewing it up WHILE ALREADY DRUNK... in his vacc suit, in the middle of the<BR>
arizona desert, with nought else but a mushy note and a new wedding band.<BR>
The "spouse" later turned up in the campaign, as a PC, of the same gender<BR>
as the scout. The humor came in trying to get a divorce. Many worlds<BR>
wouldn't recognize the marriage, so wouldn't grant a divorce for a<BR>
non-extant marriage. Since they were both on active duty, they needed the<BR>
divorce settlement for the Imperial Government to acknowledge termination<BR>
of the marriage. Since they were coassigned, the paychecks arrived to Mr &<BR>
Mr....<BR>
<BR>
Ob Traveller 2: One of my players once started to test  their non-hetero<BR>
nature by playing characters of a wide variety of genders and preferences.<BR>
But with the male bisexual swinger, the issue came up: If any willing human<BR>
will do, why is the character speciesist about consenting uplifted banoboes?<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:17:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
>It is effectively illegal to be homosexual in several states, though<BR>
>as you say, if you totaly abstain you can't be arrested.<BR>
<BR>
It is illegal to engage in certain acts, but not illegal to just be GLB. I<BR>
could go into the Georgia Bureau of Investigation Barracks in Columbus and<BR>
tap dance around singing "I'm bi and proud", and the most they could do to<BR>
me is tell me I'm a lousy singer and not quit my day job.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1959<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1960</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 23 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1960<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Re Languages in the OTU<BR>
Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: Fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
Re: Nuclear prop planes<BR>
RE: Miniatures photo page<BR>
re: Nuclear Prop Planes<BR>
Terran Battle Riders<BR>
RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:21:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re Languages in the OTU<BR>
<BR>
>OK. I'll use two different skills: Language (Hiver-Gesture) and<BR>
>Language (Hiver-Written). Gesture would be a very hard skill while<BR>
>written would be average. Gesture defaults to written at -1 while<BR>
>written to spoken at -12. <BR>
<BR>
Um, unless Steve Ditko is drawing your hands, a non-Hiver can't do the<BR>
signs. They'll have to rely on a translator.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:33:39<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
At 12:04 AM 2/23/2000 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>My top 10 reasons for Terran success<BR>
<BR>
>2.  One has to remember that these Provinces were run by a corporate <BR>
>nomenklatura.  In which each governor, had to beg for resources which cost <BR>
>him/her politically.<BR>
<BR>
a fact confiormed by theclassic game Imperium. You can appeal for aid, but<BR>
it costs you prestige.<BR>
<BR>
>4.  The Terrans were also an unknown quantity...the first Vilani contact <BR>
>would have resulted in many mutual misunderstandings.  One should not assume <BR>
>when it was Humans on Bernard that First Contact was peacefully (indeed as <BR>
>later history would rightly reveal) that it was more akin to Columbus <BR>
>"discovering" the Americas.  Sure they would have exchanged their beads and <BR>
>axes but this was by all accounts a military mission, thus, those military <BR>
>types tend to be a tad more paranoid then civilians.<BR>
<BR>
Canonically, First Contact was peaceful. The Vilani miners just assumed<BR>
this was some human race they'd never heard of, and the Terrans were too<BR>
weirded out to do much more that refuel and jump home.<BR>
<BR>
>5.  The Terrans also attacked not in unison, but individual nations possibly <BR>
>confusing the Vilani, not knowing how many colonies that the Terrans <BR>
>established Rimward.<BR>
<BR>
By the time of the First Interstellar War, the political unification of<BR>
Terra was complete.<BR>
<BR>
>7.  As the Terrans advanced so called Minor Races viewed them as liberators <BR>
>which could provide valuable allies behind enemy lines whenever the front <BR>
>moved.<BR>
<BR>
No real proof of this in canon. Remember, the ZS had be in place for<BR>
millennia by the time of the IW period. Most races would have accepted the<BR>
Vilani way. Also, there's nothing I've seen showing the Vilani as<BR>
particulary "evil" overlords.<BR>
<BR>
>9.  The Vilani were also fighting a two front war (and as in Schaflin <BR>
>Plan)the combined Vargr and Terran offensives brought the Empire to its <BR>
>heels.<BR>
<BR>
Not a factor. I doubt that the Shadow Emperor even knew a war was going of<BR>
for years. It's just too big. There isn't any evidense of any real<BR>
penetration of Vilani space. Vland Sector is just Rimward of the Extents,<BR>
and it was taken  and administered by the Terrans.<BR>
<BR>
>10.  The Vilani were smug, believing that they were the best, as all of <BR>
>known Space was under their control (save what was too far and not worth <BR>
>bothering about).  The last of the consolidation wars left the Vilani to <BR>
>persue disarmment & governance.  Where as the Terrans were literally and <BR>
>figuratively, the Young Turks of space.<BR>
<BR>
To a point, but it was less smugness as it was familiarity. This is the way<BR>
things are, have been, and will continue to be. <BR>
<BR>
We know that the ZS was getting corrupt, but for the most part, the Empire<BR>
(and its forces) had spent too long without a real fight.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:35:57<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
<BR>
At 11:45 PM 2/22/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, exactly how much damage will a near-C cat do?  Having never<BR>
>cohabited with a cat, I profess ignorance of this matter.<BR>
<BR>
Well, you can break ribs laughing if said cat needs to negotiate a sharp<BR>
turn on a linoleum floor. Our current cat is fairly easier to bathe, but<BR>
she requires much therapy afterwards to assure her that we still love her,<BR>
despite the horrid tortures just inflicted.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 01:37:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 05:53 PM 2/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Looks like another OOPS for BTC.<BR>
><BR>
>According to "The Spinward Marches Campaign" the Imperial Sector Capital is<BR>
>Mora.<BR>
<BR>
It's now the Domain Captial (BTC page 115)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 02:07:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
At 12:43 AM 2/23/2000 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, many areas (Some state, some county, some city) have prohibitions<BR>
>on certain sexual acts, specifically<SNIP><BR>
<BR>
OK, I'm bi, and active in the GLBT movement, but this is getting *way* too<BR>
off-topic, and last time I checked, we don't check ID (or passports) at the<BR>
door. A good venue to continue the discussion would be<BR>
alt.politics.homosexuality.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:09:22 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:<BR>
>>Ray Wiberg wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> > I have a couple of questions for the list, as I prepare the formal<BR>
>>> > THUDDD 12 proposal:<BR>
>>> ><BR>
>>> > 1.  Where is the Spinward Marches IN Sector HQ ca. 1115?  GT:BTC<BR>
>>> > mentions that Sector HQ is on Efate.  Am I reading this correctly?<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> According to  The TNE Regency Sourcebook p38 states that Regina is both<BR>
>>> the capital of the Regina Subsector and the Spinward Marches<BR>
>><BR>
>>This agrees with the political capital information as given in GT:BTC<BR>
>>and (IIRC) earlier material.  I'm trying to figure out where the<BR>
>>Imperial Navy Sector HQ is (which doesn't have to be the same world as<BR>
>>the political capital).  My assumption is that the various sector<BR>
>>headquarters have a fair amount of leeway in ship procurement, based on<BR>
>>the strategic needs of their respective sectors.  Obviously, in this<BR>
>>case, a call for prototypes for a sector fleet would be issued from the<BR>
>>sector HQ.<BR>
><BR>
>Looks like another OOPS for BTC.<BR>
><BR>
>According to "The Spinward Marches Campaign" the Imperial Sector Capital<BR>
>is Mora.<BR>
<BR>
It could be that Norris moved the capital to Regina after the<BR>
Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I always thought that whilst Regina and Efate might be good<BR>
places from which to fight a war, the place to prepare for the next<BR>
war is back on those few Pop A/TL F worlds that actually represent pretty<BR>
much the entire Domain of Deneb economy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:35:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:33:41 PST<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
>><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> A fusion reaction isn't capable of generating electricity<BR>
>>> directly.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Actually, it *is*. At least if your reactor uses electrostatic<BR>
>>confinement!<BR>
><BR>
> Oops missed that.<BR>
><BR>
>>But that sort of reactor is rather large and somewhat fragile. But it's<BR>
>>at least as likely to be practical as any other. Check Analog a few<BR>
>>months back. One of the science columns tells you how to build such a<BR>
>>reactor. It won't achieve "breakeven" (produce more power than it takes<BR>
>>to keep it running), but it'll produce *lots* of fusion neutrons..<BR>
><BR>
> If it can't breakeven then it isn't a power plant it's a power drain.<BR>
> But if it could be made to breakeven it's a candidate.<BR>
<BR>
The one they describe for a *hobbyist* to build won't achieve<BR>
breakevn. But for $100 or so, it'll produce enough fusion neutrons that<BR>
you are advise to be *very* careful operating it!<BR>
<BR>
They are working on units that might actually produce power. But they<BR>
figure those would have to be around 5 meters diameter, and have some<BR>
interesting tricks done with the electrodes that create the "space<BR>
charge". <BR>
<BR>
>>>>You only have to shield one side as well. The side facing the rest of the<BR>
>>>>ship.  The reactor sits out from the rest of the ship.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Well I was thinking in terms of the other traveller starship<BR>
>>> components that are all accesible in the ship for maintanance<BR>
>>> purposes.<BR>
>><BR>
>>So you put them on the same side of the shielding as the crew. This may<BR>
>>have the reactor in the *nose* of the ship, though for a NERVA type<BR>
>>design it'd be in the tail.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was thinking in terms of the<BR>
> fission reactor being accesable for maintenance like the other<BR>
> components.<BR>
<BR>
It is. At least as accessible as such normally are. You use waldos,<BR>
robots or both.<BR>
<BR>
Also, with the NERVA type rockets, there's essentially *no* moving<BR>
parts except the control rods (which rotate rather than insert) and the<BR>
pumps that move LH2 from the fuel tanks to the chamber "above" the<BR>
reactor where it feeds into the channels thru the core where it gets<BR>
heated. <BR>
<BR>
So there's nothing *to* work on in the radioactive section, at least<BR>
not until you need to refuel it. Though I imagine you'd send in a<BR>
remote camera to check the nozzle lining every so often.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:43:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:52:36 PST<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
><BR>
> <snip><BR>
><BR>
>>I find it despicable that the anti-nuke types have used tactics that<BR>
>>actually result in *increased* risks bercause of all the waste piling<BR>
>>up in places never intended to do more than store stuff until it could<BR>
>>be shipped for permanent disposal, or for reprocessing.<BR>
><BR>
> And I find it unconsionable that the nuclear power industry<BR>
> foisted large expensive nuclear plants on us without first figuring out<BR>
> what they were going to do about the radioactive waste. As far as<BR>
> I can tell the plan was to just dump it any ol' where *untill* the<BR>
> anti-nukes pointed out the hazzards.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, much of the expense was the interminable lawsuits and delays<BR>
they caused.<BR>
<BR>
And the *original* plan was that spent fuel rods would be reprocessed<BR>
to extract both an remaining usable fuel, and any Pu produced. Then one<BR>
of our presidents decided that *we* couldn't reprocess spent fuel,<BR>
because that would encourage nucelear proliferation (there actually<BR>
*was* some logic involved, but not very much). <BR>
<BR>
Likewise, the national storage site was supposed to have been in<BR>
operation 20 years ago. The main things blocking it are the "not in my<BR>
back yard" attitudes, and the continual complaints that it can't<BR>
contain the waste for millions of years (which is a complete red<BR>
herring, since *300 years* would be enough to make the waste no more<BR>
dangerous than many natural formations of uranium ore).<BR>
<BR>
They built the plants because according the best info available at the<BR>
time, they were *cheap*, and by the time it was needed, the facilities<BR>
would be available. They *could not* know that costs would become so<BR>
astronomical, nor that construction of the requireing processing<BR>
facilities would be delayed so long. Both of which can be laid squarely<BR>
at the feet of the anti-nuke folks.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:52:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>> The micro reactor uses less material for a given power output, and is<BR>
>> easily refueled. Alas, RTGs are a bitch to refuel.<BR>
<BR>
> Cracking open the units to swap the pellets out is difficult, I agree.<BR>
<BR>
As i understand it, you can't just "replace pellets". The radio-isotope<BR>
"charge" and the thermoelectric elements are kind of "intimately"<BR>
connected. <BR>
<BR>
> But given a lifespan of many years, perhaps the idea would be to swap in<BR>
> a new one and recycle the 'used' unit at the factory? Treat the RTG as a<BR>
> very long-lived battery.<BR>
<BR>
> A system such as you have described which could have its 'electrolyte'<BR>
> swapped out periodically like the vanadium fuel cell currently under<BR>
> test would be much more convenient.<BR>
><BR>
>> I think we'd *both* rather have space-based solar power than any of the<BR>
>> other choices.<BR>
<BR>
> Beaming the power to the ground is going to be problematic. If people<BR>
> are neurotic about other forms of radiation... gigawatts of microwaves<BR>
> and big rectennae probably aren't going to win any support.<BR>
<BR>
The thing is, the power is spread out over such a huge area that you<BR>
could walk thru the beam without any real problems. And rectennas look<BR>
like a bunch of pipes set in rows above the ground, with a few yards<BR>
between the rows. <BR>
<BR>
The plans that don't call for putting them in deserts suggest growing<BR>
crops *under* the rectenna. All that the rectenna does is place a few<BR>
limits on the crops that can be grown (most due to restrictions ofn the<BR>
size of the equipment that can be used for harvesting and cultivating. <BR>
<BR>
> It looks like *any* cost analysis that reliably incorporates all<BR>
> fabrication and setup costs tends to make anything we do in regard with<BR>
> energy generation environmentally costly.<BR>
<BR>
Try checking out the death toll for coal fired power plants. Ignore the<BR>
long term stuff like cancer, just go with the deaths and injuries in<BR>
mining the coal and transporting it via rail. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 06:21:32 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
Imperium Terran fighters are pretty puny, with weak weapons and screens.  <BR>
They don't fit the bill for consideration as Battle Riders.<BR>
<BR>
Ken<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:45:31 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Feb 00, at 0:48, Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >IIRC the hull size limit is imposed by the computers, so using rocks for<BR>
> >hulls won't help.<BR>
> <BR>
>   Please explain the capacity of the individual ships in the ESA mission<BR>
> that reached the Islands, in 500,000 words or less. Tautologies and<BR>
> circular arguments are expected, but over-use may result in loss of marks<BR>
> or an automatic draft into the Bureaucracy. (50 marks)<BR>
> <BR>
>  "Yes, we have no inconsistencies here today"<BR>
> <BR>
> The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its<BR>
> Product"<BR>
<BR>
Clearly the builders of the ESA's Island mission ships (C-Jammer, etc) <BR>
were heretics, and thus weren't constained by High Guard. This is shown <BR>
by their refusal to use Jump Drives.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:45:31 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
On 22 Feb 00, at 23:52, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Try checking out the death toll for coal fired power plants. Ignore the<BR>
> long term stuff like cancer, just go with the deaths and injuries in<BR>
> mining the coal and transporting it via rail. <BR>
<BR>
Funnily enough that's one of the reasons the Russian nuclear plants had <BR>
so many accidents and sub-standard proceedures, etc. Nuclear plants <BR>
were held to be heaps safer than coal, so nuclear power workers were <BR>
paid less than coal miners, etc. The result was that the best people <BR>
worked with coal, and only the crap people worked in the poorly paid <BR>
nuclear industry.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:45:31 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
On 22 Feb 00, at 23:45, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> > <BR>
> > Actually this size limit could well explain the Terran preference for<BR>
> > missile weapons (if I'm remembering Imperium correctly, which I may not<BR>
> > be, seeing as I don't own it).<BR>
> <BR>
> I do own it, and it's the other way around.  The Vilani are missile<BR>
> fans, while the Terrans are believers in beam weapons.<BR>
> <BR>
> At this point, using the previously-suggested handwave that the Terrans<BR>
> had computers at TL 11, you then can see why the Terrans preferred beam<BR>
> weapons.  After all, effective beam weapons require good computers, while<BR>
> effective missiles require both good computers _and_ efficient missile<BR>
> drive systems.  The Terrans, with an overall TL of 9-10, couldn't easily<BR>
> build missiles that had enough thrust to be useful in combat against the<BR>
> Vilani.  They therefore linked their TL 9-10 lasers and PAWs to TL 11 fire<BR>
> control systems, and had a merry old time. Vilani ships, OTOH, tended to<BR>
> use missiles as their primary weapon. Missiles, when equipped with<BR>
> efficient drives, require less power from the launching vessel, and are<BR>
> thus more efficient than power-hungry beam weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Actually it makes more sense this way for other reasons, too. The <BR>
Terrans don't have the construction facilites or forward depots to <BR>
resupply fleets that require vast amounts of expendable munitions, <BR>
whereas the Vilani, having been around for a whole lot longer, and <BR>
interested in mainly defensive work will have a good network of <BR>
resupply bases, stockpiles, etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:45:32 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Feb 00, at 16:57, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Regrettably the Californian wind/solar power experiment is not working<BR>
> well. The British and European trials are looking a little better.<BR>
<BR>
Another factor with wind (and tide) power generation is that they can <BR>
have ionteresting effects on the wind (or tide) patterns for a very <BR>
long way downwind (not surprising seeing as you're taking energy out of <BR>
the wind), and possibly can thus affect weather patterns.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 06:55:16 -0600<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
Would the Sector Naval HQ be at the sector Naval Depot?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:52:30 -0600<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
<BR>
is near-C the speed the cat attains after being bathed?<BR>
or the octave their meow attains after said bath?<BR>
<BR>
and not all cats mind bathing, although the dainty little 35# Maine <BR>
Coon cat that I share an apartment with has very firm ideas about <BR>
getting wet. hes also been mistaken for the Aslan Ambassador to <BR>
Terra on a couple of occasions.<BR>
<BR>
"90 of the sentient species in the universe are owned by cats"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:13:23 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear prop planes<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
> Leonard Erickson puts into the ether:<BR>
>  >If you want a *big* plane that can stay up for years, go with the AF's<BR>
>  >design for a reactor using the steam turbine to drive propellers!<BR>
><BR>
> The AF was seriously considering this at one point.  There were AF<BR>
> personnel run through both the Army & Navy nuclear training programs back<BR>
> in the 60's.<BR>
<BR>
The remains of the crashed test plane are still decaying in area 51.  If it<BR>
weren't for that crash we would have seen "nuclear subs with wings" flying<BR>
around like the Cloudships by the time Traveller came out.  They would<BR>
doubtless be a part of the game, including their own section in COACC.<BR>
What?  Oh, sorry, must go.  Time for my medication.<BR>
<BR>
- -Crusty<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:16:02 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Miniatures photo page<BR>
<BR>
In my blister package I received 1 with and 1 without a turret. Go figure.<BR>
The tan scout one on my page has a hemispherical double turret. The gray one<BR>
was flat but I built my own  missle launcher. I've got to makes some more<BR>
for the SDB as it also was lacking turrets.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca [mailto:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 3:38 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Miniatures photo page<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> >Subject: Miniatures photo page, let me try this again...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>My miniatures page is at <BR>
> >>    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >Scout / Courier - RAFM, Inc. TNE Series No. 5801<BR>
> ><BR>
> >This miniature was missing a turret when I received it. I <BR>
> carved the missle<BR>
> launcher<BR>
> >from hardened epoxy as a replacement.<BR>
> <BR>
>   None of the Scout mini's that I've seen were meant to have a turret;<BR>
> perhaps there was a change in the casting/design at some point?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:17:26 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Nuclear Prop Planes<BR>
<BR>
Swordy wrote:<BR>
>The remains of the crashed test plane are still decaying in area 51.  If it<BR>
>weren't for that crash we would have seen "nuclear subs with wings" flying<BR>
>around like the Cloudships by the time Traveller came out.  They would<BR>
>doubtless be a part of the game, including their own section in COACC.<BR>
>What?  Oh, sorry, must go.  Time for my medication.<BR>
<BR>
A B-36 Peacemaker, specially modified, the only aircraft known to have<BR>
flown with a functioning nuclear reactor on board. One thing - it used<BR>
normal engines and normal fuel for flying, it had no equipment on<BR>
board for getting electrical power or motive energy out of the reactor.<BR>
I understand such gear can rival the size of the reactor itself...of course,<BR>
were it getting power from the reactor, it wouldn't need all that fuel and<BR>
those IC engines...not to mention the jets for take-off and altitude<BR>
assist.<BR>
<BR>
(I researched this a bit - I've got a Revell 1/36 scale Peacemaker model<BR>
built, and one of my future projects is to convert it into a replica of this<BR>
plane, complete with the radiation markers and the converted cockpit<BR>
area.)<BR>
<BR>
And the remains aren't "decaying" - from what I hear, they've been cleaned <BR>
up in a fashion that makes picky Marine drill sergeants envious.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:27:00 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 20:19:07 EST<BR>
>From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>I can't argue with the number that you present, but all that i have to<BR>
say is<BR>
>that in my many playing of "Imperium", I would have loved to have<BR>
sicced some<BR>
>battleriders on those rascally Vilani, but unfortunately the Terrans<BR>
never<BR>
>invented them.  They would have been ideal for the Terrans strategic<BR>
>situation, since they could be cranked out to function both as<BR>
defensive<BR>
>monitors and as offensive strike craft.<BR>
<BR>
>Ken<BR>
<BR>
Hi Ken,<BR>
<BR>
Actually I was lobbying in favor of Vilani Battle Riders in the 5k to<BR>
10K range. which gives the smaller Terran ships more of a chance at the<BR>
beginning of the conflict.<BR>
<BR>
The Terrans hit TL 11 about two years after the first war so maybe they<BR>
captured some Vilani computers or something.  The Terrans could then<BR>
build ships with spinal mounts which seems to fit with CT canon.  It's<BR>
really only the First of the Nth interstellar wars that there is such a<BR>
disparity in the maximum ship sizes.  After that it evens out until the<BR>
Terrans invent J-3 Drives and really start kicking Vilani behinds.<BR>
<BR>
- -Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:27:24 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
When I talked with the guys at RAFM, I got the impression that the<BR>
unreleased Traveller miniatures existed and I almost convinced them to sell<BR>
me some. My guess though is that they actually became Silent Death ships, I<BR>
just don't know which ones.<BR>
<BR>
Regarding the Sack of Small Craft that your buddy was fortunate enough to<BR>
acquire, I would love to get my hands on more of these at a reasonable<BR>
price. I aggree they are not worth $1 each. You see, they are really good<BR>
for building 2300 AD human starships. I use one of the "greeblies" as the<BR>
command compartment and add on assorted junk to form the drives, etc...  It<BR>
looks just like the Kennedy. Let me know if he wants to part with any of<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca [mailto:shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 3:56 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> >>My miniatures page is at <BR>
> >>    http://www.icubed.com/~gemyers/<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >These are the RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures.<BR>
> >Within brackets is the quantity of each which I own.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Traveller by RAFM: (circa 1992) <BR>
> >[ ]     5797 Raiders and Traders - never produced <BR>
> >[ ]     5798 Mantis Class Battle Cruiser - never produced <BR>
> >[ ]     5799 Freighters and Escort - never produced <BR>
> <BR>
>   Were those three catalog numbers intended to be boxed sets of<BR>
> some sort? _That_ would have been neat - the old Star Frontiers<BR>
> boxed sets of TSR's were nice enough, and they were much cruder<BR>
> castings than RAFM's TNE work.<BR>
> <BR>
> ...<BR>
> >[ ]     5810 Launch <BR>
> <BR>
>   I never bothered buying any of these - they looked too much like all<BR>
> of the other little greeblies to justify $5 for 5 of the teensy little<BR>
> things, and then throwing them in a drawer for perma-storage...<BR>
> <BR>
>   Of course, one of the fellows I game with picked up a bag _full_ of<BR>
> the damned things on Sunday; we're unsure whether to use them as space<BR>
> fighters or as missiles for 2300 AD :><BR>
> <BR>
>         Steven Hudson<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:42:55 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
I have an Excel 97 spreadsheet if you're interested.  However, you may want<BR>
to double check it as my first releases are often about as good as<BR>
Microsoft's.  See my initial nearstar spreadsheet as an example.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I believe this has been covered before, but could someone advise on how<BR>
>close a nuclear warhead would have to get to its target in space in order<BR>
to<BR>
>adversely effect the target for a given yield. I need this information for<BR>
a<BR>
>TNE game where I have TL7,8 & 9 spacecraft armed with missiles only, which<BR>
>are fitted with conventional nukes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1960<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1961</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 23 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1961<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: waste and real waste<BR>
Re: Nuclear Prop Planes<BR>
Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
DGP auction rages on<BR>
Terran Superiority<BR>
Terran Superiority<BR>
Re: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
re: light sails<BR>
Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
re: Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:23:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: waste and real waste<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
> The rest of the waste is bulky, short half-life stuff like the paper<BR>
> jumpsuits worn once and disposed of.<BR>
<BR>
Some of it can be incinerated and/or heavily compacted before burial.  Too<BR>
bad about the fuel recycling, though.  The UK plant gets 80-90% yield from<BR>
the reprocessing, I hear.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:27:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Prop Planes<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Walter Smith" <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
> And the remains aren't "decaying" - from what I hear, they've been cleaned<BR>
> up in a fashion that makes picky Marine drill sergeants envious.<BR>
<BR>
I meant the radioactivity decaying, sorry ;-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:41:26 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> >5.  The Terrans also attacked not in unison, but individual nations possibly <BR>
> >confusing the Vilani, not knowing how many colonies that the Terrans <BR>
> >established Rimward.<BR>
> <BR>
> By the time of the First Interstellar War, the political unification of<BR>
> Terra was complete.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, Doug, but unfortunately, canonical sources indicate that the <BR>
political unification of Terra did not occur until 2120, which is at <BR>
the end of the First Interstellar War.<BR>
<BR>
Check out the Integrated Traveller Timeline, located at:<BR>
http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/timeline.html<BR>
<BR>
According to the canon sources cited therein (and repeated below, to <BR>
make it easy to reference,) the Terrans were J-1 throughout all of <BR>
the 1st IW, developed J-2 in the same year the 1st IW ends, formed <BR>
the United Worlds for two years after the end of the 1st IW, then <BR>
becomes the Terran Confederation. At that point, Terra can <BR>
definitely be said to be politically unified.<BR>
<BR>
Here is a list of the portion of the integrated timeline from Terra's <BR>
first steps into space until the establishment of the Rule of Man, <BR>
complete with documentation on each reference, should this help. All <BR>
years are Imperial.<BR>
<BR>
- -2559     First Solomani space explorations. GDW, MT Imperial<BR>
Encyclopedia, p. 6.<BR>
<BR>
- -2552     First Solomani landings on Luna, Terra's moon (1827<BR>
Solomani Rim). TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.<BR>
<BR>
- -2510     Archimedes settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 Solomani<BR>
Rim) established as a small mining base. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984),<BR>
p. 75.<BR>
<BR>
- -2508     United Nations Space Coordinating Agency (UNSCA)<BR>
established on Terra (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, Alien Module 6 -<BR>
Solomani, p. 12.<BR>
<BR>
- -2501     Copernicus settlement on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 Solomani<BR>
Rim), established by America, Britain and Japan. TSR, Dragon #87 (July<BR>
1984), p. 75.<BR>
<BR>
- -2471     ESA Long-Range Colony Mission leaves Terra (1827 Solomani<BR>
Rim) in generation ships. GDW, Adventure 5 - Trillion Credit Squadron,<BR>
p. 40.<BR>
<BR>
- -2460     Solomani bases throughout the Terran solar system (1827<BR>
Solomani Rim). GDW, MT Imperial Encyclopedia, p. 6.<BR>
<BR>
- -2438     GSbAG allegedly founded from consortium of old Terran<BR>
manufacturing firms on Terra (1827 Solomani Rim). GDW, Supplement 8 -<BR>
Library Data (A-M), p. 41.<BR>
<BR>
- -2433     Luna, Terra's moon (1827 Solomani Rim), unifies as a<BR>
nation in the United Nations. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.<BR>
<BR>
- -2431     Solomani develop jump-1 drives on Terra (1827 Solomani<BR>
Rim). GDW, Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), p. 18.<BR>
<BR>
- -2430     (c) Vanejen (3119 Spinward Marches) colonized by Vilani.<BR>
GDW, Spinward Marches Campaign, p. 18.<BR>
<BR>
- -2422     First Imperium contacted by American space mission (UNSCA)<BR>
at Barnard (1926 Solomani Rim). GDW, Alien Module 6 - Solomani, p. 4.<BR>
<BR>
- -2408     First Interstellar War begins in Solomani Rim between<BR>
First Imperium and UNSCA. GDW, Supplement 8 - Library Data (A-M), p.<BR>
10.<BR>
<BR>
- -2403     The Harriman Incident:  a mass driver module collides with<BR>
a passenger liner at the Luna starport, Terra's moon (1827 Solomani<BR>
Rim), forcing the government to move the starport to the Copernicus<BR>
settlement. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.<BR>
<BR>
- -2400     ?1:  First Interstellar War ends; UNSCA becomes United<BR>
Worlds. GDW, Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), p. 11.<BR>
<BR>
- -2400     ?2:  Vargr raids on Vilani space begin. GDW, Spinward<BR>
Marches Campaign, p. 18.<BR>
<BR>
- -2400     ?3:  Population on Luna, Terra's moon (1827 Solomani Rim)<BR>
reaches 60,000. TSR, Dragon #87 (July 1984), p. 75.<BR>
<BR>
- -2398     ?1:  United Worlds changes name to Terran Confederation.<BR>
GDW, Alien Module 6 - Solomani, p. 5.<BR>
<BR>
- -2398     ?2:  Solomani develop jump-2 drives. GDW, MT Referee's<BR>
Companion, p. 34.<BR>
<BR>
- -2389     Terran Confederation Navy commissions TL 12 artificially<BR>
intelligent robots for naval support staff. GDW, Book 8 - Robots, p.<BR>
6.<BR>
<BR>
- -2280     (c) Terran Confederation develops jump-3 drive; Vilani<BR>
border broken. GDW, Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), p. 11.<BR>
<BR>
- -2235     Nth Interstellar War begins between First Imperium and<BR>
Terran Confederation. GDW, Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z), p. 11.<BR>
<BR>
- -2219     Nth Interstellar War ends with conquest of First Imperium<BR>
by Terran Confederation. GDW, Supplement 8 - Library Data (A-M), p.<BR>
10.<BR>
<BR>
- -2204     Establishment of the Rule of Man (Second Imperium) by<BR>
Hiroshi Estigarribia (Emperor Hiroshi I). GDW, Supplement 8 - Library<BR>
Data (A-M), p. 10. <BR>
<BR>
All This For Just Cr0.02,<BR>
Jason<BR>
<BR>
=============================<BR>
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer IV<BR>
(512)458-7111 ext. 1+3375<BR>
Internet Address:  jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us<BR>
<BR>
Most computer virus and email alerts are hoaxes.  For more info, check out:<BR>
http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/culture/beliefs/urbanlegends/library/blhoax.htm<BR>
==============================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:58:05 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
<BR>
Gal@ngo   fo  fa  t@re<BR>
Galanglic for far traders<BR>
<BR>
Lesson 1<BR>
- --------<BR>
<BR>
Hello, anyone feel creative?<BR>
<BR>
I'm looking for what your Galanglic phrases look like...<BR>
perhaps a proverb, or a street sign, or a common phrase<BR>
like "that jump drive looks a little flaky".  What are<BR>
your ideas?<BR>
<BR>
My thoughts on Galanglic are amateur and few.  However,<BR>
I've thought about a few possible heuristics:<BR>
<BR>
1. All vowels have the continental sound <BR>
   ("schoolmarm Galanglic" only... YMMV)<BR>
<BR>
2. Metathesis, dropped letters, and shortened vowels rule: <BR>
   truth    becomes "t@rth", where '@' is a schwa<BR>
   self     becomes "s@f"<BR>
   evident  becomes "edent"<BR>
   all      becomes "al"<BR>
   men      becomes "m@n"<BR>
   create   becomes "k@ret"<BR>
   equal    becomes "ik@l"<BR>
   given    becomes "gin"<BR>
   with     becomes "uit"<BR>
   certain  becomes "k@rtn"<BR>
   right    becomes "rig@t"  [ sort of sounds like rigget? ]<BR>
   among    becomes "@mon"<BR>
   life     becomes "fi"<BR>
   liberty  becomes "libe"<BR>
   pursue   becomes "p@rsu"<BR>
   happiness becomes "hapi"<BR>
   insure   becomes "ensh@r"<BR>
   government becomes "gober"<BR>
   set-up   becomes "set@"  (synonym for "made" or "make")<BR>
<BR>
My sample text, then, is:<BR>
<BR>
Ui ken is t@rtha ar s@f edent, that al m@n ar k@reted ik@l;<BR>
that e ar gin bai er k@reter uith k@rtn rig@ta; that amon <BR>
is ar fi, libe, e the p@rsu de hapi; that tu ensh@r is rig@ta,<BR>
gobera ar set@ @mon m@n...<BR>
<BR>
We hold [ken = M.E. know] these truths are self evident, that all<BR>
men are created equal; that they are given [endowed] by their Creator<BR>
with certain [unalienable?] rights; that among these are life,<BR>
liberty, and the persuit of happiness; that to ensure these<BR>
rights, governments are set up [instituted] among men...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
My pronouns are:<BR>
<BR>
I    ai   We     ui<BR>
you  u    y'all  uall<BR>
he   i    they   e<BR>
she  shi [their  er]<BR>
it   ti<BR>
<BR>
The rest of my little wordlist is:<BR>
<BR>
not/no         ne<BR>
must           s@<BR>
now            no<BR>
die            die  /di/<BR>
galactic       gal@<BR>
star           st@r<BR>
ship           shi[po]<BR>
jump           j@pa<BR>
can            c@na<BR>
to be          ar<BR>
for            fo<BR>
far            fa<BR>
trade          t@re<BR>
english        ngo / ngis<BR>
go             gu<BR>
boat           bota<BR>
cargo          kago<BR>
<BR>
one            @n<BR>
two            du / tu<BR>
three          trei / tri<BR>
four           shi<BR>
five           go<BR>
six            ses<BR>
seven          sen<BR>
eight          ech<BR>
nine           nan<BR>
ten            den<BR>
eleven         el@n<BR>
twelve         tel<BR>
thirteen       tes<BR>
fourteen       kat<BR>
fifteen        kin<BR>
sixteen        sesden<BR>
seventeen      senden<BR>
eighteen       edden<BR>
nineteen       adden<BR>
twenty         tunden<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:25:02 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
John Snead writes:<BR>
>Well, I do now one possible candidate for at least temporary <BR>
survival in a vacuum.  I saw this show on life around deep sea<BR>
>vents a while back.  There were these small (perhaps 4-5 inches<BR>
>across) white crabs down there.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I'd put bets on their ability to survive moderate-term exposure<BR>
>to vacuum if they had an air supply, and even w/o one I'd<BR>
>imagine they could survive it for most of an hour (crabs can<BR>
>live out of water a surprising amount of time).<BR>
<BR>
	I don't think that there is any problem coming up with<BR>
	organisms that can survive hard vacuum for a while.  On<BR>
	the other hand, the evolution of life in vacuum is much<BR>
	more difficult.  If the life form needed water, for<BR>
	example, it would not just have to avoid drying out in<BR>
	a few hours, or even a few weeks.  It would have to find<BR>
	the water in the first place.  I would expect that the<BR>
	greatest hurdle for life starting out in space would be<BR>
	getting all the important components together and keeping<BR>
	them there long enough for something to happen.  Of course,<BR>
	space (as Douglas Adams so elequently put it) is big.  And<BR>
	old.  Maybe something got started despite the hurdles, but<BR>
	as hard SF I wouldn't expect it.  If you want to include<BR>
	a native vacuum-life-form in YTU, I would suggest that it<BR>
	would tend to spend 99.9999999999+% of its time as a spore,<BR>
	waiting for a fortuitous impact with something that it can<BR>
	use for raw materials (A starship? What will the PCs do if<BR>
	their vessel starts to be digested?).<BR>
<BR>
	I would be easier to imagine life that evolved on a planet,<BR>
	gas giant, comet, etc., then became adapted to free space.<BR>
	Maybe the Oort cloud is being colonized by space fleas.<BR>
	Still quite a stretch, but then so are a lot of things IMTU.<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:26:45 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry writes:<BR>
>>I believe this has been covered before, but could someone advise<BR>
>>on how close a nuclear warhead would have to get to its target<BR>
>>in space in order to adversely effect the target for a given<BR>
>>yield.<BR>
>I have an Excel 97 spreadsheet if you're interested.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I would be interested  :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 08:37:10 -0800<BR>
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
<BR>
>The only fusion (and fission) rockets I'm aware of are the kind where the<BR>
>reactor is used to heat the fuel and push it out the tail end.  What are<BR>
>the "true" fusion rockets that spit out gamma rays?<BR>
<BR>
A "true" fusion rocket is one that fuses hydrogen into helium and uses that<BR>
helium directly as its exhaust - no seperate reaction mass. Enormously<BR>
high ISP, very hard to build, and in the real world likely to have very low<BR>
acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller's fusion rockets and HEPlaR are this class of device...<BR>
<BR>
BRuce<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:38:18 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: DGP auction rages on<BR>
<BR>
Just a reminder, items which have long been out of print MINT DGP's <BR>
Traveller Digest #6, 20, 21 and MegaTraveller #3 rages on.  Contact <BR>
rainbow7@netcom.ca to place your bid.<BR>
Plus, there is a whole host of GDW Megatraveller items in Near Mint <BR>
condition on offer (basically everything GDW published).<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:47:59 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
Yes, First Contact was peaceful.  Subsequent contact, was less peaceful.  <BR>
Terra also far from unified by the time of first Interstellar Wars, cannon <BR>
does cite that several different battle fleets from several different <BR>
nations engaged in the fight.  The Terrans also were able to fight with wits <BR>
whereas, the Vilani saw the Rimward frontier as quite barren prefering to <BR>
consolidate around the Vland sector and having their core territory arround <BR>
again look at the map in Dogs and Cogs.  Frontiers as a rule are generally <BR>
underpopulated.   Also, i think that a previous author who cited the cannon <BR>
belovence of the Vilani may be a Vilani spy amongst us right now (sabotaging <BR>
Mars probes as well our ultimate triumph over time & space) [insert evil <BR>
laugh].<BR>
   But seriously, there were many cultures which resented the Vilani <BR>
pacification which just waited for the Terrans as liberators.  Also, once <BR>
they tasted self-governance or self-determination.  They would be less <BR>
likely to want to go back.  One has to remember the ROM was anything but a <BR>
unified state.  Like the TC, it was a political compromise much like the 3I <BR>
always on the brink.<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:48:04 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
Yes, First Contact was peaceful.  Subsequent contact, was less peaceful.  <BR>
Terra also far from unified by the time of first Interstellar Wars, cannon <BR>
does cite that several different battle fleets from several different <BR>
nations engaged in the fight.  The Terrans also were able to fight with wits <BR>
whereas, the Vilani saw the Rimward frontier as quite barren prefering to <BR>
consolidate around the Vland sector and having their core territory arround <BR>
again look at the map in Dogs and Cogs.  Frontiers as a rule are generally <BR>
underpopulated.   Also, i think that a previous author who cited the cannon <BR>
belovence of the Vilani may be a Vilani spy amongst us right now (sabotaging <BR>
Mars probes as well our ultimate triumph over time & space) [insert evil <BR>
laugh].<BR>
   But seriously, there were many cultures which resented the Vilani <BR>
pacification which just waited for the Terrans as liberators.  Also, once <BR>
they tasted self-governance or self-determination.  They would be less <BR>
likely to want to go back.  One has to remember the ROM was anything but a <BR>
unified state.  Like the TC, it was a political compromise much like the 3I <BR>
always on the brink.<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:47:46 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 00:52 23.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, I do now one possible candidate for at least temporary <BR>
>survival in a vacuum.  <BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Which shows that there are many lifeforms that can endure extreme<BR>
circumstances; "life as we know it" going space in a few billion years (if<BR>
it can survive all the problems to come...) is far from being unrealistic.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:44:14 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 16:56 23.02.00 +1100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The big problem for 'life as we know it' [reliant on liquid solvents for<BR>
>biochemistry to happen in] is evolving some sort of pressure jacket to<BR>
>prevent tissue dessication. A shell of silicates or ices might be a<BR>
>viable partial solution. Our hypothetical creatures may just pop in and<BR>
>out of their shells briefly to feed/fight/reproduce (a couple of<BR>
>minutes endurance would be physiologically possible).<BR>
<BR>
This sounds fairly reasonable, though I would not think that ice would<BR>
qualify as a proper "shell material". But silicates would probably.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Background radiation may be advantageous in that it could provide an<BR>
>energy source (thermal - so some sort of other mass [a planetoid?] is<BR>
>required) as well as acting as an evolutionary stimulus.<BR>
<BR>
As long as the mutation rate can be kept below a certain level... otherwise<BR>
you would end up with a _real_ lot of extinct species, but only very few<BR>
(if any at all; a too high a mutation rate would kill any lifeforms in the<BR>
2nd to 3rd generation, I'd say.) <BR>
<BR>
>I suppose solid-state 'biochemistry' could be postulated to get around<BR>
>this but this is sort of limiting (more Cymbeline chips? Great...).<BR>
<BR>
Cymbeline? What is that?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:44:55 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 19:08 22.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
[spaclings/space reefs]<BR>
>> But cellular bio-fusion-reactors? A little bit too hard to imagine for my<BR>
>> personal taste. <BR>
><BR>
>Well, you do have to keep in mind the fact that they can "live" off the<BR>
>energy from *one* fusion reaction for a *long* time. So if they somehow<BR>
>manage to "luck into" a process that can both fuse hydrogen *and let<BR>
>them utilize the enery with even a 1% efficiency, they've got it made.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, _if_ they manage  that, I aggree. But it's alittle hard to imagine for<BR>
me, that's all. You produce a lot of energy at time with fsion. IMHO too<BR>
much for a lifeform to use/save it.<BR>
<BR>
>>  No, what I was looking for was a bit more "conservative": Life as we know<BR>
>> it, but ertrapolated into a future where some if it has managed to adapt to<BR>
>> hard vacuum, zero-G and hard radiation. (Would be a damn good enemy race<BR>
>> fpor a TV show, don't you aggree? :-) )<BR>
><BR>
>Hard radiation *survival* for unicellular forms is fairly easy. We have<BR>
>lots of examples. <BR>
<BR>
Unicellular, right. But what about multicellular life?<BR>
<BR>
>Being able to *utilize* hard radiation as an energy source is *just* as<BR>
>hard as biological fusion (in fact they are essentially the same<BR>
>problem!) <BR>
<BR>
It is?<BR>
Well, the use of radiation (though not hard one) _has_ been solved in the<BR>
past. Chlorophyll. It was this what I assumed: Some kind of hard radiation<BR>
chlorophyll. An ecosystem based on this could, a few other problems solved,<BR>
be an interesting possibility. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 09:11:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
DaveShayne writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> And I find it unconsionable that the nuclear power industry<BR>
> foisted large expensive nuclear plants on us without first figuring out<BR>
> what they were going to do about the radioactive waste. As far as<BR>
> I can tell the plan was to just dump it any ol' where *untill* the<BR>
> anti-nukes pointed out the hazzards.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I find it unconscionable that the lumber industry foisted wood on us without first figuring out how the wood supply was going to regenerate, and without a thought towards such problems as soot, smoke, ...<BR>
And that the coal industry foisted coal on us without once thinking about air pollution, acid rain, strip mining, ...<BR>
And we won't even talk about the auto industry.  Not a thought about smog!<BR>
And the list goes on...<BR>
<BR>
While I'll admit that the nuclear power people were a bit short-sighted, we can hardly consider them worthy of exceptional condemnation for that.  Short-sightedness appears to be the natural state of man.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:20:03 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Query on MacOS<BR>
<BR>
At 19:07 -0500 22/2/00, "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
> > Apologies for the OT question, but does anyone know if a Mac LC will<BR>
> > run MacOS 7.5.2?<BR>
> You're gonna run Trav software? Not OT then! ;) Seriously, Hypercleats says<BR>
>it should run up to Mac OS 7.6.1.  provided it has enough RAM. Good luck!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
Yep, it's to demo Rob Prior's BITS Software.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:30:28 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: light sails<BR>
<BR>
At 5:08 -0500 23/2/00, Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
>Covered in the Award winning GDW publication Fire, Fusion & Steel for TNE.<BR>
><BR>
>Mitch "Ted7" Schwartz wrote up some in system racers and rules for such races.<BR>
><BR>
>Last I heard, BITS was going to do *something* with his work.<BR>
<BR>
I am not aware of BITS being in receipt of anything on this topic.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:44:56 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Superiority<BR>
<BR>
At 9:36 -0500 23/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>Not a factor. I doubt that the Shadow Emperor even knew a war was going of<BR>
>for years. It's just too big. There isn't any evidense of any real<BR>
>penetration of Vilani space. Vland Sector is just Rimward of the Extents,<BR>
>and it was taken  and administered by the Terrans.<BR>
<BR>
Adding to Doug's comments: The Ziru Sirka was effectively much larger <BR>
than the Third Imperium - ISTR that the V&V book quotes 15000 star <BR>
systems *and this was with J2 ships*. The 3I in M1100 has ships <BR>
travelling 3 times faster with an established communications network, <BR>
and a lower number of systems (11,000).<BR>
<BR>
In addition, the Shadow Emperor maintained a strong control over the <BR>
fores available to the Vilani governors. In Imperium, this is <BR>
simulated by the need for the Vilani player to appeal for more forces <BR>
and better ship designs/classes. Also, the Vilani player has a pretty <BR>
fixed budget, and the Terran budget expands rapidly as new colonies <BR>
and resources come available. I wouldn't put it past the Terrans <BR>
building the equivalent of a Mulberry harbour for their new colonies <BR>
- - an instant starport with construction facilities. this may only <BR>
assemble parts, but it would rapidly expand and decentralise <BR>
construction.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.<BR>
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can<BR>
   see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."<BR>
                   Fish /Raingods with Zippos/<BR>
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:45:24 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Terran Battle Riders : Hull sizes <<HELP IMPERIUM PLAYERS>><BR>
<BR>
At 1:02 -0500 23/2/00, dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
>Does anyone have a copy of Imperium (especially in Australia) that I can look<BR>
>at.<BR>
<BR>
My FLGS has a copy up for approx 20 GBP. If you want to look into <BR>
getting a copy email me off list.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:45:37 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
At 22:25 -0500 22/2/00, Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:<BR>
> > Final questions: Has anyone done rules for Traveller on light sail<BR>
> > "engines"? How about ion rockets?  Anyone got rules for a "hard SF"<BR>
> > version of Trav... say TL-9, no psi, no anti-grav, maybe jump drive<BR>
> > as the one speculative bit?<BR>
><BR>
>You will probably be flogged for that statement.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
It's called Traveller:2300 or 2300 AD ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 10:38:50 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dropping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
> Nope. You forgot that comm-lag is the *round trip* distance. That is,<BR>
> the minimum time between sending a signal and getting a response, which<BR>
> requires covering the distance *twice* (once outbound, once inbound).<BR>
><BR>
> So I get about 3.6 AU (1 AU = 150 Gm = 1.5e11 m).<BR>
><BR>
> 30 min at 3e8 m/s = 5.4e11 m<BR>
> 5.4e11/1.5e11 = 3.6 AU<BR>
><BR>
> So if that lag is for closest approach, you'd be at 4.6 AU from the Sun<BR>
> or out near Jupiter. If it's for longest, then you only have to be at<BR>
> 2.6 AU, or out around Mars.<BR>
<BR>
I find it easier to remember that 1 AU ~ 500 light seconds.<BR>
You get the same results with a little easier calcs.  1 hour turn<BR>
around time = 3600 seconds divide that by 500 you get 7.2<BR>
AU, divide that in half to account for the trip there and back<BR>
again and you get 3.6 AU.<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:12:12 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
><BR>
>When I talked with the guys at RAFM, I got the impression that the<BR>
>unreleased Traveller miniatures existed and I almost convinced them to sell<BR>
>me some. My guess though is that they actually became Silent Death ships, I<BR>
>just don't know which ones.<BR>
<BR>
  Hmm, if so then they weren't of any canonical Trav ships, in which case<BR>
I'm not very interested in having them anyway :(  OTOH, I've looked at the<BR>
Silent Death ships quite carefully (ID'ing which ones were of TNE origins)<BR>
and didn't see any that struck me as being really Travelleresque - but the<BR>
few that came close I bought :)<BR>
<BR>
  I'll have to see how the spares situation pans out.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1961<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1962</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 23 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1962<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
THUDDD 11<BR>
RE: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
Re: IMPERIUM <BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Vs: Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nukes - yes please<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Give me an N, give me a U...<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Time Travel<BR>
Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:13:44 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
>Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
...<BR>
>Clearly the builders of the ESA's Island mission ships (C-Jammer, etc) <BR>
>were heretics, and thus weren't constained by High Guard. This is shown <BR>
>by their refusal to use Jump Drives.<BR>
<BR>
  Remember also that although the Anatolians may have had it for a long time,<BR>
they didn't make it available to the public for several decades more :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:16:32 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:<BR>
> DaveShayne writes:<BR>
> > And I find it unconsionable that the nuclear power industry<BR>
> > foisted large expensive nuclear plants on us without first figuring out<BR>
> > what they were going to do about the radioactive waste. As far as<BR>
> > I can tell the plan was to just dump it any ol' where *untill* the<BR>
> > anti-nukes pointed out the hazzards.<BR>
><BR>
> Personally, I find it unconscionable that the lumber industry<BR>
> foisted wood on us without first figuring out how the wood<BR>
> supply was going to regenerate, and without a thought towards<BR>
> such problems as soot, smoke, ...<BR>
> And that the coal industry foisted coal on us without once<BR>
> thinking about air pollution, acid rain, strip mining, ...<BR>
> And we won't even talk about the auto industry.  Not a thought<BR>
> about smog!<BR>
> And the list goes on...<BR>
><BR>
> While I'll admit that the nuclear power people were a bit<BR>
> short-sighted, we can hardly consider them worthy of<BR>
> exceptional condemnation for that.  Short-sightedness<BR>
> appears to be the natural state of man.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that this perception is one of vantage.  AFAIK, the<BR>
"nuclear power people" did look to the long term.  They had<BR>
plans for dealing with most of the things that they have been<BR>
decried for "overlooking."<BR>
<BR>
What they didn't foresee was the reaction they got from the<BR>
anti-nuke types.  AFACS, all of their plans would have been<BR>
sufficient for what was needed if the anti-nukes hadn't<BR>
thrown a  monkey-wrench/spanner into the works.<BR>
<BR>
Its easy to look back and ask, "Why didn't they see all this<BR>
coming?"  The answer is because they couldn't know<BR>
everything.  As humans always do, they did the best they<BR>
could with the available information.  And, IIRC, the plans<BR>
they made then would have been sufficient.  And as concerns<BR>
were expressed, they modified their plans to accommodate/<BR>
alleviate those concerns.<BR>
<BR>
As far as I'm concerned, 'nuf said.<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
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Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:28:57 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
There was only one entry for THUDDD 11.  Apparently, no one else wanted to<BR>
do a non-GURPS design for a Modular Cutter.  If anyone else has or wants to<BR>
do a non-GURPS design for this THUDDD, I could reopen the submissions.  If<BR>
not, I am face with a dilemma.  Do I put it up for voting and commentary?<BR>
Do I simply declare that one design the winner?  Do I cancel THUDDD 11 for<BR>
lack of interest?  Or do I move THUDDD 12 into it's place as though there<BR>
never was a Modular Cutter design for THUDDD 11?  Please advise me.<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:36:43 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
...<BR>
>> What inconsistancy, simply use computer banks rather than individual<BR>
>computers and you can then build and control hulls of any displacement. IMHO<BR>
>the limiting factor in ship size was cost not computing power.<BR>
<BR>
  I agree; HG2 doesn't :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:43:42 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Droping waste in space<BR>
<BR>
Cybernaut writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I suspect that this perception is one of vantage.  AFAIK, the<BR>
> "nuclear power people" did look to the long term.  They had<BR>
> plans for dealing with most of the things that they have been<BR>
> decried for "overlooking."<BR>
<BR>
Unlikely.  Plenty of evidence that the early nuclear power people had no idea<BR>
what they were doing, just look at all the stories about radiation exposure<BR>
from the 50s and 60s.  We won't go into such things as using a flouroscope<BR>
(sp?) to check the fit of shoes....<BR>
<BR>
Which doesn't mean that a lot of the anti-nuclear power people aren't nuts, of<BR>
course.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:53:05 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: IMPERIUM <BR>
<BR>
...<BR>
>Does anyone have a copy of Imperium (especially in Australia) that I can<BR>
look at.<BR>
<BR>
  www.titangames.com (great people!) has copies of the last GDW edition for<BR>
$8 or $12 US, shrink-wrapped. FWIW, I have spares :)<BR>
<BR>
  There's also a re-release this year with superior artwork; I don't recall<BR>
the URL, but the new game title is IMPERIUM 2000.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 11:51:44 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
I'm crossposting this from the TML to ct-starships, as it's relevant <BR>
to High Guard and TCS. <BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
> >From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> >Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
> ...<BR>
> >IIRC the hull size limit is imposed by the computers, so using rocks <BR>
> >for hulls won't help.<BR>
> <BR>
>   Please explain the capacity of the individual ships in the ESA mission<BR>
> that reached the Islands, in 500,000 words or less. Tautologies and<BR>
> circular arguments are expected, but over-use may result in loss of marks<BR>
> or an automatic draft into the Bureaucracy. (50 marks)<BR>
<BR>
My house rule: <BR>
Every additional computer installed, of the maximum computer level <BR>
available at a given tech level (fib or bis not required, just the <BR>
highest number), allows a ship to increase maximum size by one USP <BR>
size factor, but *not* for purposes of *any* weapon allowances - <BR>
spinal mounts must be no larger than the basic hull size limit from <BR>
computer, and bay/hardpoint allowances are calculated from the same <BR>
size limit (less any spinal mount, as usual). <BR>
<BR>
This allows megaliners, gigantic freighters, generation ships, and<BR>
the like, while still providing some limits on warships.<BR>
<BR>
If it seems too easy to get big ships this way, you can also <BR>
consider allowing one extra USP size for every *doubling* of the <BR>
number of installed computers.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell "Hmm, my posts are *starting* to look like *Leonard's*" B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:00:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Eric Henry writes:<BR>
> >>I believe this has been covered before, but could someone advise<BR>
> >>on how close a nuclear warhead would have to get to its target<BR>
> >>in space in order to adversely effect the target for a given<BR>
> >>yield.<BR>
> >I have an Excel 97 spreadsheet if you're interested.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> 	I would be interested  :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
> <BR>
Me too!<BR>
<BR>
In fact any varaiation missle info is welcome. One of the things I've been<BR>
wondering (taken from my stock of many Traveller questions) is why it<BR>
seems that 3I standrd missles seem to be nuclear x-ray missles.<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:00:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Eric Henry writes:<BR>
> >>I believe this has been covered before, but could someone advise<BR>
> >>on how close a nuclear warhead would have to get to its target<BR>
> >>in space in order to adversely effect the target for a given<BR>
> >>yield.<BR>
> >I have an Excel 97 spreadsheet if you're interested.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> <BR>
> 	I would be interested  :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Peez<BR>
> <BR>
Me too!<BR>
<BR>
In fact any varaiation missle info is welcome. One of the things I've been<BR>
wondering (taken from my stock of many Traveller questions) is why it<BR>
seems that 3I standrd missles seem to be nuclear x-ray missles.<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:16:02 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
I'll send you the sheet offlist but here's how it works.<BR>
<BR>
On the spreadsheet you need to input the yield of the warhead<BR>
( in kilotons ) and the distance from the target<BR>
( in meters ) when the warhead detonated.<BR>
<BR>
I take the kiloton yield and convert to megajoules; from Dietrich Shroeer's<BR>
_Science Technology and the Nuclear Arms Race_  one kilogram of TNT is<BR>
approximately equivalent to 4 Megawatts or Megajoules per second.<BR>
<BR>
I take the distance from target measurement and calculate the surface area<BR>
of the fireball at the point it intersects the target.  From there you will<BR>
see the amount of delivered megajoules per square meter.  It follows that<BR>
the farther away the detonation, the larger the fireball surface area, the<BR>
lower the megajoules.<BR>
<BR>
To finally answer your question below.... you'll find that one megaton<BR>
yields at 1000 meters is not delivering very many megajoules per square<BR>
meter.  Unless my equations are all wrong which is definitely possible.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>In fact any varaiation missle info is welcome. One of the things I've been<BR>
>wondering (taken from my stock of many Traveller questions) is why it<BR>
>seems that 3I standrd missles seem to be nuclear x-ray missles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:21:12 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
<BR>
"Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>A "true" fusion rocket is one that fuses hydrogen into helium and <BR>
>uses that helium directly as its exhaust - no seperate reaction <BR>
>mass. Enormously high ISP, very hard to build, and in the real <BR>
>world likely to have very low acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
Why would such drives have low acceleration?  If you can do fusion <BR>
I would also think you could magnetically shield exhaust nozzles <BR>
fairly well.  Also, didn't the proposed project Daedalus fusion pulse <BR>
drive have an acceleration in the range of 0.1 G (low, but not <BR>
horribly so)?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks-<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindpsring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:21:12 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>John Snead writes:<BR>
>>Well, I do now one possible candidate for at least temporary <BR>
>>survival in a vacuum.  I saw this show on life around deep sea<BR>
>>vents a while back.  There were these small (perhaps 4-5 inches<BR>
>>across) white crabs down there.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>I'd put bets on their ability to survive moderate-term exposure<BR>
>>to vacuum if they had an air supply, and even w/o one I'd<BR>
>>imagine they could survive it for most of an hour (crabs can<BR>
>>live out of water a surprising amount of time).<BR>
<BR>
>I don't think that there is any problem coming up with<BR>
>organisms that can survive hard vacuum for a while.  On<BR>
>the other hand, the evolution of life in vacuum is much<BR>
>more difficult.  <BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
	<BR>
>I would be easier to imagine life that evolved on a planet,<BR>
>gas giant, comet, etc., then became adapted to free space.<BR>
>Maybe the Oort cloud is being colonized by space fleas.<BR>
>Still quite a stretch, but then so are a lot of things IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.  If these crabs can survive such things now, what about<BR>
similar beings on an ancient Mars-like world which lost almost all <BR>
of its atmosphere over the course of many millions of years?  If you <BR>
had a world somewhat larger than Mars, but still small enough that <BR>
Oxygen and Nitrogen could escape (albeit more slowly) then <BR>
complex life might just in time to be forced to adapt to an <BR>
increasingly thin atmosphere.  The critters could eat ice and <BR>
various vacuum adapted lichen and crack the ice for oxygen.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the really fun part would be speculating about what such <BR>
a creature would be like if it were sentient.  If complex vacuum <BR>
adapted life exists, the somewhere in the TU sentient vacuum <BR>
adapted life will also exist.  Talk about "have spacesuit, will travel..."<BR>
<BR>
Any ideas?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@netcom.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:32:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Why would such drives have low acceleration?  If you can do fusion <BR>
> I would also think you could magnetically shield exhaust nozzles <BR>
> fairly well.  Also, didn't the proposed project Daedalus fusion pulse <BR>
> drive have an acceleration in the range of 0.1 G (low, but not <BR>
> horribly so)?<BR>
<BR>
Basically, it's because the power requirement of a drive is equal to (thrust<BR>
in newtons) * (exhaust velocity in meters/second).  This doesn't require a<BR>
separate reaction chamber (the drive _is_ the power plant) but it does require<BR>
many of the other components of a power system, and will be a significant<BR>
fraction of the weight of a normal power system.  <BR>
<BR>
If you have an Isp 10,000 fusion rocket (100 km/second) with a power output<BR>
of 10 MW/ton (rather high) it will have a thrust of 100 newtons, making it<BR>
capable of 0.01 Gs.  A fusion rocket intended for interstellar travel would<BR>
like an Isp of 1 million or higher (3.3% of c) and would thus be capable of<BR>
0.0001 Gs.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:40:46 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry writes:<BR>
<BR>
> To finally answer your question below.... you'll find that one megaton<BR>
> yields at 1000 meters is not delivering very many megajoules per square<BR>
> meter.  Unless my equations are all wrong which is definitely possible.<BR>
<BR>
One megaton at 1,000 meters is equivalent to 1 ton at 1 meter, or about 330<BR>
MJ/m^2.  That's enough to vaporize 6-8mm of steel, which won't get through<BR>
the armor on any traveller starship.  However, the primary damage mechanism<BR>
in space isn't direct vaporization, it's a thermal shock effect, and I suspect<BR>
a megaton at 1,000 meters would be a fairly unpleasant experience for any<BR>
unarmored ship.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:04:18 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Hmm...  something doesn't add up.  I agree that 1 megaton at 1000 meters = 1<BR>
ton at 1 meter.  However, i get results of 25.33 Mj/m^2.<BR>
<BR>
Here's the math for anyone who wants to verify.  First, i assume 1 ton yield<BR>
equals 4000 Mj.  Second, I take the distance from detonation and multiply by<BR>
(4*distance*Pi)^2 to determine the surface area of the fireball.  Then i<BR>
take megajoules and divide by surface area to determine megajoules per<BR>
square meter.<BR>
<BR>
How'd i do?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 2:45 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Eric Henry writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> To finally answer your question below.... you'll find that one megaton<BR>
>> yields at 1000 meters is not delivering very many megajoules per square<BR>
>> meter.  Unless my equations are all wrong which is definitely possible.<BR>
><BR>
>One megaton at 1,000 meters is equivalent to 1 ton at 1 meter, or about 330<BR>
>MJ/m^2.  That's enough to vaporize 6-8mm of steel, which won't get through<BR>
>the armor on any traveller starship.  However, the primary damage mechanism<BR>
>in space isn't direct vaporization, it's a thermal shock effect, and I<BR>
suspect<BR>
>a megaton at 1,000 meters would be a fairly unpleasant experience for any<BR>
>unarmored ship.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 13:06:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry writes:<BR>
> Hmm...  something doesn't add up.  I agree that 1 megaton at 1000 meters =<BR>
> 1 ton at 1 meter.  However, i get results of 25.33 Mj/m^2.<BR>
> <BR>
> Here's the math for anyone who wants to verify.  First, i assume 1 ton<BR>
> yield equals 4000 Mj.  Second, I take the distance from detonation and<BR>
> multiply by (4*distance*Pi)^2 to determine the surface area of the fireball.<BR>
>  Then i take megajoules and divide by surface area to determine megajoules<BR>
> per square meter.<BR>
> <BR>
> How'd i do?<BR>
<BR>
Try 4 * Pi * (distance^2).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:21:22 +0000<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote<BR>
>>Formatting comment :-<BR>
>>This may be an artifact of the mail server, but each block<BR>
>>(appearance/special features/symmetry, locomotion,<BR>
>>posture/reproduction/senses) should be broken up - a paragraph for<BR>
>>each?<BR>
><BR>
>There are currently three paragraphs in the expanded GURPS listing (the<BR>
>last one): weapons/skin, senses, and everything else.  I can easily<BR>
>split up everything else, but then the descriptions get longer. We're<BR>
>already at four pages for a single encounter table! (12-point times,<BR>
>single-spaced, one column)<BR>
><BR>
>What do folks think?<BR>
<BR>
I think it looks fine as it is. However, if you're feeling ambitious you<BR>
could base the output on a template file that people could edit to suit<BR>
themselves (within reason). This would also deal with the "PD/DR 0/0"<BR>
vs. "PD 0, DR 0" issue.<BR>
<BR>
Example template for the standard short entry (using \ to indicate where<BR>
a line is split for email transmission):<BR>
<BR>
{roll}  {Type} ({group}, {number})<BR>
        ST: {ST}, DX: {DX}, IQ: {IQ}, HT: {HT}/{HP}, Mass: {mass} kgs, \<BR>
Speed: {speed}, Dodge: {dodge}<BR>
        {Weapontype} ({weapondamage}), {covering} (PD/DR: {PD}/{DR})<BR>
<BR>
This would produce output like:<BR>
<BR>
3       Grazer (small group, 1d-1)<BR>
        ST: 6, DX: 12, IQ: 4, HT: 17/9, Mass: 34 kgs, Speed: 10, \<BR>
Dodge: 6<BR>
        Blunt teeth (0 crushing), skin (PD/DR: 0/0)<BR>
<BR>
Somebody might edit this to be:<BR>
<BR>
        On a roll of {roll}, {number} {types} are encountered.<BR>
        They have {covering}, giving them PD {PD}, DR {DR}...<BR>
<BR>
This produces:<BR>
<BR>
        On a roll of 3, 1d-1 grazers are encountered.<BR>
        They have skin, giving them PD 0, DR 0...<BR>
<BR>
This assumes a fairly sophisticated template format, allowing for<BR>
capitalisation and plurals to be chosen. You probably wouldn't want to<BR>
go that far!<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought.<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:13:04 +0200<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 5:58 PM<BR>
Subject: Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Gal@ngo   fo  fa  t@re<BR>
> Galanglic for far traders<BR>
<BR>
Great. And I thought I had enough trouble reading "Feersum Endjinn"...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:41:06 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nukes - yes please<BR>
<BR>
They built the plants because according the best info available at the time,<BR>
they were *cheap*, and by the time it was needed, the facilities would be<BR>
available. They *could not* know that costs would become so astronomical,<BR>
nor that construction of the requireing processing facilities would be<BR>
delayed so long. Both of which can be laid squarely at the feet of the<BR>
anti-nuke folks.<BR>
<BR>
- - -- <BR>
Leonard <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Boo anti nuke folks, boo. How could they reject nuclear power based on feeb<BR>
concerns about intensely radioactive  waste being stockpiled and the like.<BR>
Boo. And hey as for power itself, there has never been a problem with a<BR>
major melt down or anything (cough Chernobol cough Major increase in cancers<BR>
for thousands of miles in path of wind patterns cough radioactively in the<BR>
food chain cough). <BR>
<BR>
I for one won't stand for greenies and other leftie types putting the planet<BR>
ahead of profit. Boo. Most of them are illl informed about what they are<BR>
protesting about - hell most of them probably don't even know how good a<BR>
Dolphin tastes. Boo. Hell, most of them don't even want Nuclear tests<BR>
!?!?!?!?!?! That's just CRAZY. And how about those stupid environmental<BR>
impact statements - just why the hell can't they determine the effects of a<BR>
proposed industrial site over the next 100 or so years in just 6 weeks -<BR>
that's not efficient at all. I could do it in a day.<BR>
<BR>
Boo.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Is there an organized environmental group in 3I like those sad<BR>
Geenpeace losers? Do they go around to developing planets (pre-stellar-) to<BR>
hassle corporations/governments that don't have effective environmental<BR>
controls? Do they encourage people to question what investments their<BR>
pension funds are making?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:01:35 +1100<BR>
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Give me an N, give me a U...<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I find it unconscionable that the lumber industry foisted wood<BR>
on us without first figuring out how the wood supply was going to<BR>
regenerate, and without a thought towards such problems as soot, smoke, ...<BR>
And that the coal industry foisted coal on us without once thinking about<BR>
air pollution, acid rain, strip mining, ...<BR>
And we won't even talk about the auto industry.  Not a thought about smog!<BR>
And the list goes on...<BR>
While I'll admit that the nuclear power people were a bit short-sighted, we<BR>
can hardly consider them worthy of exceptional condemnation for that.<BR>
Short-sightedness appears to be the natural state of man.<BR>
<BR>
A.J.<BR>
<BR>
Good call. I mean man has been burning wood, what 300k+ years, and coal as<BR>
soon as we figured it was for burning and not for eatin'. As for cars, well<BR>
it was the 1910's when that kicked off and frankly weren't thinking then at<BR>
all. We've had nuclear power since what, the fifties? Talk about backward -<BR>
brylcream, big cars, bobby socks. I really don't expect that those people<BR>
who could split the atom could have seen any of the small amount of problems<BR>
that were going to arise. As for possible radiation contamination - I mean<BR>
who was going to test for that? You'd have to have been pretty stupid to<BR>
drop nukes on your own soldiers to discover what could happen.  <BR>
<BR>
Idiots. <BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Does the Ministry of Information put out cheesy public awareness<BR>
commercials to reduce concerns of the populace at large; What about 'The<BR>
Imperial Navy - where your money goes', 'Those dirty Zhos', 'Near C rocks<BR>
won't happen to you'. I'd like to see that....<BR>
<BR>
In fact, in T5, wouldn't it be great to see some Imperial Govt posters like<BR>
Star Wars had (recruitment posters for the storm troopers etc.). That's some<BR>
good stuff right there.<BR>
<BR>
Michael <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:38:24 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
At 6:36 PM -0800 2/22/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> Actually evidence for life goes back 3.5-3.9 billion years ago<BR>
>> (700 to 1100 million years after the system formed).  Mutlicellular<BR>
>> life comes much later, but theories on why that is true are pretty<BR>
>> much just "theories".<BR>
<BR>
>True, but there's evidence of *several* geological events between then<BR>
>and the "Cambrian explosion" of multi-cellular forms that would have<BR>
>wiped out any higher lifeforms that had existed, unless they'd gotten<BR>
>as far as we have.<BR>
<BR>
The current theory is that multi-cellular life need to wait until<BR>
an oxygen atmosphere was formed before it could get started.  I<BR>
haven't heard any theories, at least ones that gained wide circulation,<BR>
that claimed life started before the Cambrian explosion (though<BR>
I have heard claims that move it back in time a bit).<BR>
<BR>
>For example, at one point, the moon is thought to have moved *in* from<BR>
>where it formed, gotten fairly close and spiralled back out again. At<BR>
>the closest approach, the difference between high tide and low tiude is<BR>
>greater than the average depth of the oceans! Which means the oceans<BR>
>would likely have eroded the continents like mad, until you got to the<BR>
>point of having two tidal bulges, half a mile or more deep following<BR>
>the moon around the globe.<BR>
<BR>
I've not heard that.  I have heard about catastrophic flooding<BR>
of continents (due to funny techtonics _very_ early on).  The<BR>
Moon, as far as I have heard, has been moving out since formation.<BR>
<BR>
>Then there's the "icebox Earth" events. Where the planet *completely*<BR>
>froze over. That's happened several times.<BR>
><BR>
>So multi-cellular life may have gotten wiped out several times. While<BR>
>the unicellular stuff just kept evolving, until finally, the planet<BR>
>became hospitable on a more or les continuous basis.<BR>
<BR>
I've been at conferences where the ice covered Earth was discussed.<BR>
I think that last even is early enough that nobody feels the need<BR>
to say the multicellular life got completely wiped out. (Nor<BR>
is it clear that it couldn't survive in whatever refuge the<BR>
single cell organisms survive).<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:55:13 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
>Actually as the Solomani designed all the standard TL levels (that is why<BR>
>Earth is used as the standard) it is more likely the Vilani who would have<BR>
>the hodge-podge of technology.<BR>
<BR>
While this is true for pre-stellar technology levels, canonically the Solomani<BR>
tech levels aren't evenly advanced across the board after that. Specifically,<BR>
Solomani tech is more advanced in biological sciences (as evidenced<BR>
by the early uplift of dolphins and apes) and less advanced in gravitics<BR>
tech. Those are just the two I recall, there may be others as well.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:19:15 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Time Travel<BR>
<BR>
        ||||||||||<BR>
        \/\/\/\/\/<BR>
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 06:52:30 -0600, "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>is near-C the speed the cat attains after being bathed?<BR>
>or the octave their meow attains after said bath?<BR>
><BR>
>and not all cats mind bathing, although the dainty little 35# Maine <BR>
>Coon cat that I share an apartment with has very firm ideas about <BR>
>getting wet. hes also been mistaken for the Aslan Ambassador to <BR>
>Terra on a couple of occasions.<BR>
><BR>
>"90 of the sentient species in the universe are owned by cats"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Did you experiment with a near-C cat and end up in the future?<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the<BR>
 lash."                              - Winston Churchill<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:52:56 -0500<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 23:45:13 -0600<BR>
> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water<BR>
> <BR>
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > At 12:19 PM 2/21/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > 8 Stand behind the toilet as far as you can, and quickly<BR>
> > >     lift both lids.  The now-clean cat will rocket out of the toilet,<BR>
> > >     and run outside where he will dry himself.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 8b Alternatively, the cat will hit relativistic speeds getting under the<BR>
> > couch, where it will roll about in the dust bunnies and corn chip<BR>
> > fragments. It will emerge an hour later, looking like some sort of bag-cat<BR>
> > coming off a three-day catnip bender.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, exactly how much damage will a near-C cat do?  Having never<BR>
> cohabited with a cat, I profess ignorance of this matter.<BR>
> <BR>
	Having witnessed many such occurrences of near-C cats (I am owned by 4<BR>
cats) most end up doing little damage because they are trying to hide.<BR>
They work better as decoys. <BR>
	<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1962<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1963</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, February 23 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1963<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
Re: land ownership<BR>
Re Missiles<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
Terrans in Spaaaaaaaace!<BR>
Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
Re: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
Re: land ownership<BR>
Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too _______ when...<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re:  Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
THUDDD 12 Proposal (Final Draft)<BR>
THUDDD 12: The AuricTech Entry (longish) [T4]<BR>
THUDDD 12:  Representative Freightliner (as target) (longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 15:48:57 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> One megaton at 1,000 meters is equivalent to 1 ton at 1 meter, or about<BR>
330<BR>
> MJ/m^2.  That's enough to vaporize 6-8mm of steel, which won't get through<BR>
> the armor on any traveller starship.  However, the primary damage<BR>
mechanism<BR>
> in space isn't direct vaporization, it's a thermal shock effect, and I<BR>
suspect<BR>
> a megaton at 1,000 meters would be a fairly unpleasant experience for any<BR>
> unarmored ship.<BR>
<BR>
Try radiation pressure. A quick (and hopefully somewhat accurate)<BR>
calculation using 1 T = 4e9 J.<BR>
<BR>
F/A = E/V = 4e12 * (yield in kT) / (4*Pi/3 * r^3)<BR>
<BR>
For 1 MT at 1000 m I get about 9.6e5 kPa which is equal to about 3.2e5 feet<BR>
of water.<BR>
<BR>
I would guess that this is the major effect against ships in space.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:01:12 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
Cybernaut wrote:<BR>
> There was only one entry for THUDDD 11.  Apparently, no one else<BR>
> wanted to do a non-GURPS design for a Modular Cutter.  If anyone else<BR>
> has or wants to do a non-GURPS design for this THUDDD, I could reopen<BR>
> the submissions.  If not, I am face with a dilemma.  Do I put it up<BR>
> for voting and commentary?<BR>
> Do I simply declare that one design the winner?  Do I cancel THUDDD<BR>
> 11 for lack of interest?  Or do I move THUDDD 12 into it's place as<BR>
> though there never was a Modular Cutter design for THUDDD 11?  Please<BR>
> advise me.<BR>
<BR>
As soon as I have finished decrypting* my copy of FF&S2, I will enter<BR>
the competitions using those rules. Right now this is not possible<BR>
though (I only have starships with lasers right now).<BR>
<BR>
* I am rewriting FF&S2, including all of the errata, for my own personal<BR>
use. I don't change anything, merely rewriting it into a useable form.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:56:20 EST<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm sez:<BR>
<BR>
 >Isn't that the Daedalus Drive mentioned in FF&S2?<BR>
 ><BR>
 >"[...] pellets are injected into an ignition chamber [...]<BR>
 >thermonuclear<BR>
 >explosion which pushes the ship forward [...]"<BR>
 >- - FF&S2, page 67<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, Daedalus (a projected rocket design by the British Interplanetary <BR>
Society, whoever the hell they were) was a fusion heating rocket.  The U.S. <BR>
Project Orion rocket design used the engine that FF&S2 calls the Daedalus <BR>
Drive.  (Thanks to Leonard Erickson for the term "fusion heating rocket").<BR>
 <BR>
FF&S2 has alternate technologies to the standard Trav stuff?  How about <BR>
FF&S1?  Are the design rules convertible into CT/MT gear? <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 >Both light sails and ion rockets are described in FF&S2, by the way.<BR>
<BR>
Are there rules for designing craft with them, or are they just there for <BR>
"name droppings"?     :)<BR>
<BR>
I may have to get a copy of FF&S2 or FF&S1.  Which is better (regarding <BR>
alternate Trav tech and CT/MT convertability)?<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:34:13 -0800<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: land ownership<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/22/00 8:08 PM, kyle3054@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> It hath been written:<BR>
> <BR>
> "The government doesn't own shit.  *I* own it.  The government<BR>
> holds the land in trust for the citizens.  I really get sick<BR>
> of the federal government thinking it owns land or has its<BR>
> money.  All of that is *mine* and every other citizens'."<BR>
<BR>
That is a nice thought. But untrue.<BR>
<BR>
Property tax laws essentially give the government ownership of any land that<BR>
you think you own. We are but "renting" our real estate. Consider: You must<BR>
pay these taxes on a regular basis, in full, or the government (just like<BR>
any landlord) will take away "your" property, sell it out from under you,<BR>
and keep the proceeds! How is this different from renting? For one, if you<BR>
rent, the landlord must provide services that insure that your domicile is<BR>
livable, the plumbing works, the heat works, the water, etc., etc. If you<BR>
"own," you are totally responsible for all these expenses. If you rent, you<BR>
must regularly pay money to your landlord in order to live there. If you<BR>
"own," you must pay State, Local, and Federal agencies money in order to<BR>
keep the privilege of living in "your" house.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, absolutely: owning is better than renting. (More privacy, for one. More<BR>
choices you can make to alter your home and land, etc. Long term investment<BR>
and great credit...) But, since the government can take your property away<BR>
from you if you do not regularly PAY them, you really do not "own" it at<BR>
all. They do.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------<BR>
Sorry for OT posts. I will stop now.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 16:49:21 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Missiles<BR>
<BR>
>Me too!<BR>
><BR>
>In fact any varaiation missle info is welcome. One of the things I've been<BR>
>wondering (taken from my stock of many Traveller questions) is why it<BR>
>seems that 3I standrd missles seem to be nuclear x-ray missles.<BR>
><BR>
>Ray<BR>
<BR>
That's cause TNE and T4 defined the standard that way.<BR>
<BR>
In MT, the standard is an impact or proximity fused warhead. Uses same<BR>
stats as a tac missile of same TL.<BR>
<BR>
In CT, SS3 clearly defines the standard as an impact fused warhead;<BR>
proximity and nuclear warheads are available. Also, they are 10cm by 100cm.<BR>
Also gives wonderful options for missile engines (but not enough options<BR>
IMHO).<BR>
<BR>
Under Striker, CT missiles are 15cm CPR warheads of the appropriate TL.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 17:53:47 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Why would such drives have low acceleration?  If you can do <BR>
> fusion I would also think you could magnetically shield exhaust <BR>
> nozzles fairly well.  Also, didn't the proposed project Daedalus <BR>
> fusion pulse drive have an acceleration in the range of 0.1 G (low, <BR>
> but not horribly so)?<BR>
<BR>
>Basically, it's because the power requirement of a drive is equal <BR>
>to (thrust in newtons) * (exhaust velocity in meters/second).  This <BR>
>doesn't require a separate reaction chamber (the drive _is_ the <BR>
>power plant) but it does require many of the other components of <BR>
>a power system, and will be a significant fraction of the weight of <BR>
>a normal power system.  <BR>
<BR>
>If you have an Isp 10,000 fusion rocket (100 km/second) with a <BR>
>power output of 10 MW/ton (rather high) it will have a thrust of 100 <BR>
>newtons, making it capable of 0.01 Gs.  A fusion rocket intended <BR>
>for interstellar travel would like an Isp of 1 million or higher (3.3% <BR>
>of c) and would thus be capable of 0.0001 Gs.<BR>
<BR>
So, why can't you simply raise the power output?  At least with all <BR>
conventional power plants, one which produces 10x as much power<BR>
has a mass considerably lower than 10x as great.  <BR>
<BR>
Given that we have no idea how large an efficient fusion rocket (as <BR>
opposed to the primitive versions we are likely to develop in the <BR>
next 20-40 years) would be, and upscaling the power may well be <BR>
considerably more efficient wrt mass, I'm not sure why fusion <BR>
rockets would be limited to low accelerations.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:01:57 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Terrans in Spaaaaaaaace!<BR>
<BR>
Ok, this is a basic summery of Terran capabilities are as follows:<BR>
<BR>
1. Terran ships are TL10, with TL11 computers.<BR>
2. Terran Hulls can be comprable to Vilani due to superior Terran computers.<BR>
3. Terrans use lasers (due to superior aiming with terran computers, and less<BR>
reseliant on fleet supply) Lasers are at TL9-10<BR>
4. Terrans have Jump 1 only.<BR>
<BR>
At the closing of 1st IW, the terrans discover J2, and other tech that<BR>
catagories Tl11, and have TL12 computers which makes terran hulls LARGER than<BR>
vilani equivelents.<BR>
<BR>
I still like the idea of giving terra a -1 TL manouver drive penalty until say<BR>
the 3rd or 4th IW.<BR>
<BR>
Comments?<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 18:35:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
<BR>
>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Airforce motto...<BR>
<BR>
>> >You've played the "Worms" computer game then, have you?><BR>
>> No, never heard of it.  What's it like?>> --Glenn<BR>
>It is quite an amusing, "simple" children's (yeah, right!) game<BR>
>that a house full of adults can spent an evening-wee hours<BR>
>playing.  You get a troop of individually named worms in <BR>
>berets, armed with rocket launchers, flamers, grenades, mines, <BR>
<BR>
I saw my friend's daughter playing it over the weekend.  When<BR>
she asked whether she should used the sheep (I had become<BR>
something of a tactical consultant, I guess), I thought of you<BR>
and said "yes" immediately, with charming results.  I think I'll<BR>
have to put a copy on my own computer.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:02:07 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
> >Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
> ><BR>
> >When I talked with the guys at RAFM, I got the impression that the<BR>
> >unreleased Traveller miniatures existed and I almost convinced them to sell<BR>
> >me some. My guess though is that they actually became Silent Death ships, I<BR>
> >just don't know which ones.<BR>
> <BR>
>   Hmm, if so then they weren't of any canonical Trav ships, in which case<BR>
> I'm not very interested in having them anyway :(  OTOH, I've looked at the<BR>
> Silent Death ships quite carefully (ID'ing which ones were of TNE origins)<BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure that the following Silent Death miniatures had their<BR>
start as TNE ships (listed by Silent Death nomenclature, as I don't know<BR>
the TNE names):<BR>
<BR>
Praying Mantis<BR>
Rattler<BR>
Hornet<BR>
Firebat<BR>
Equalizer<BR>
<BR>
All of these Silent Death ships are described in the Universal Night<BR>
Watch supplement. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, a couple of the Silent Death "warhounds" (escort-class ships) do<BR>
look plausibly Travelleresque, IMHO (specifically the Constellation and<BR>
Fletcher).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:43:29 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com <Ludowick@aol.com><BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 7:00 PM<BR>
Subject: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Jens Rydholm sez:<BR>
><BR>
> >Isn't that the Daedalus Drive mentioned in FF&S2?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >"[...] pellets are injected into an ignition chamber [...]<BR>
> >thermonuclear<BR>
> >explosion which pushes the ship forward [...]"<BR>
> >- - FF&S2, page 67<BR>
><BR>
>IIRC, Daedalus (a projected rocket design by the British Interplanetary<BR>
>Society, whoever the hell they were) was a fusion heating rocket.  The U.S.<BR>
>Project Orion rocket design used the engine that FF&S2 calls the Daedalus<BR>
>Drive.  (Thanks to Leonard Erickson for the term "fusion heating rocket").<BR>
><BR>
>FF&S2 has alternate technologies to the standard Trav stuff?  How about<BR>
>FF&S1?  Are the design rules convertible into CT/MT gear?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >Both light sails and ion rockets are described in FF&S2, by the way.<BR>
><BR>
>Are there rules for designing craft with them, or are they just there for<BR>
>"name droppings"?     :)<BR>
><BR>
>I may have to get a copy of FF&S2 or FF&S1.  Which is better (regarding<BR>
>alternate Trav tech and CT/MT convertability)?<BR>
><BR>
>Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
In my humble Opion.. FF&S2 is better for CT/MT converstion.<BR>
the rule set of T4 was very close to CT/MT.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:57:28 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: land ownership<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought on property law that might also serve to spark some ideas for <BR>
Traveller background material.  Our present property law (US and I suspect <BR>
Australian and NZ as well) is a direct descendant of English feudal law, with <BR>
all of its obligations for service, tribute to one's lord, etc.  It has been <BR>
mutated and altered, primarily to make transfer simpler, but the idea that <BR>
property rights derive from the sovereign still controls much of what we do <BR>
today.  I've always imagined that with the exception of those worlds that <BR>
were populated when first contacted by the Imperium, that the original title <BR>
to property resided in the Emperor, and that although title has been <BR>
dispersed by enfeofment and transfers over the years, sizable tracts still <BR>
exist as imperial land on many worlds.  This would especially be the case on <BR>
worlds obtained as spoils of war conducted by Imperial forces.  I suspect <BR>
that the view of property as being a form of natural rights as espoused by <BR>
John Locke and others never became widespread in the Imperium, since feudal <BR>
forms of landholding appear to be locked in due to their use since the <BR>
Imperium was founded.<BR>
<BR>
Ken<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:01:50 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too _______ when...<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Humor: Your Traveller Universe is too American<BR>
>when...<BR>
<BR>
I had written:<BR>
>> Your Traveller Universe is Too Finnish when:><BR>
>> you assign 2dtons of sauna space for every eight persons<BR>
>>aboard a ship<BR>
<BR>
you replied:<BR>
>And fusion powered saunas in most dwellings? :-)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, dwellings would have fusion power, which would<BR>
generate electricity for a variety of purposes including heating<BR>
the rocks in the sauna, but the very best and most prized saunas<BR>
would heat the rocks with wood fires -- the old way.  Imported<BR>
birch wood from Terra would fetch extremely high prices.<BR>
<BR>
Did I mention that starship interiors generally have beautiful<BR>
wood panelling?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:10:06 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Ray Wiberg wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> In fact any varaiation missle info is welcome. One of the things I've been<BR>
> wondering (taken from my stock of many Traveller questions) is why it<BR>
> seems that 3I standrd missles seem to be nuclear x-ray missles.<BR>
<BR>
The standard military missile is the nuke-pumped det-laser, because,<BR>
between point defense and nuclear dampers, only a det-laser can get<BR>
close enough to a military target to inflict useful damage.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:09:07 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re:  Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
>-Russell <BR>
...<BR>
>Every additional computer installed, of the maximum computer level <BR>
>available at a given tech level (fib or bis not required, just the <BR>
>highest number), allows a ship to increase maximum size by one USP <BR>
>size factor, but *not* for purposes of *any* weapon allowances - <BR>
<BR>
  Works for me, although I'm not sure if I'd bother with the<BR>
weapons restriction.<BR>
<BR>
>If it seems too easy to get big ships this way, you can also <BR>
>consider allowing one extra USP size for every *doubling* of the <BR>
>number of installed computers.<BR>
<BR>
  I'd just make the tonnage allowance additive, mostly to avoid weirdness<BR>
with the USP's and the tonnages they represent. It also keeps the cost<BR>
inefficiency at the same weighting.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, I'd be a happier camper if the system simply made TL a multiplier<BR>
on the cost (etc.) of a given "computer" performance level in a similar<BR>
fashion to the way that power & armour works, but that's asking a lot from<BR>
a 1980 game - heck, it appears to be too much to ask of the people at FASA<BR>
as late as 1999...<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:25:10 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Then there that star called Sol, nominally G2V but actually a variable with<BR>
> a small, but measurable increase in energy output as it ages. To paraphrase<BR>
> "I don't think this star is entirely stable"<BR>
<BR>
Said quote explaining a lot about (and applying to) the lifeforms<BR>
inhabiting the star's third planet.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:25:29 EST<BR>
From: LB2NOLA@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:25:31 EST<BR>
From: LB2NOLA@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:32:35 EST<BR>
From: LB2NOLA@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
OK guys....sorry......hit a few wrong keys and sent a couple of blank <BR>
mails.....shoot me, I'm a blonde.  :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:37:10 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: my first post to the TMLJeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, the "Blue Book" from Harvard is a poorly written,<BR>
>atrociously organized, annoyingly thick, and shamefully bound<BR>
>reference book of citation methods and bibliography rules<BR>
>that lawyers are supposed to use, apparently for no other<BR>
reason<BR>
>than that Harvard wrote a book about it before anyone else did.<BR>
<BR>
Now this is real heresy.  The Blue Book, whose complete name is<BR>
The Blue Book: A Uniform System of Citation, is one of the most<BR>
useful tools provided to our profession.  Without it, we would<BR>
not have a uniform system, but rather as many systems of<BR>
citation as there are law firms, lawyers, courts, law schools,<BR>
and pro pers writing briefs and articles.  This would be an<BR>
insane world -- truly hell on earth.  <BR>
<BR>
Think of this:  the Blue Book allows us to spot writers who do<BR>
not use proper citation form instantly.  That fact tells us<BR>
immediately that the writer may be one of more of the following:<BR>
 sloppy; untrained; not a lawyer; not a law review editor; an<BR>
iconoclast wannabe; unable to afford a secretary or law clerk<BR>
who knows the Blue Book; or possibly sloppy.  Now a sloppy<BR>
citation to my mind suggests sloppy reasoning, and I hope that<BR>
it suggests the same to the judge reading that brief -- because<BR>
I know that my citation form is always correct.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.<BR>
Technical Editor, Suffolk University Law Review, 1987-88<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:45:07 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12 Proposal (Final Draft)<BR>
<BR>
The following is provided as my final draft for the THUDDD 12<BR>
competition.  Thanks to all for the input!<BR>
<BR>
**begin transmission**<BR>
<BR>
Macene/Rhylanor (Spinward Marches 2612)  079-1117<BR>
<BR>
As part of an ongoing analysis and implementation of lessons learned<BR>
during the Fifth Frontier War, the Imperial Naval HQ for the Spinward<BR>
Marches Sector has awarded a contract to AuricTech Shipyards at Trin for<BR>
12 fleet destroyers optimized as commerce raiders.  Lieutenant Commander<BR>
Erich Ansbach-Gothenburg von Trin, of the Imperial Navy Public Affairs<BR>
office at Macene, released the following statement:<BR>
<BR>
The Spinward Marches branch of the Fleet Tactics College has been<BR>
pleased with the input provided by AuricTech Shipyard's Strategic and<BR>
Commercial Analysis Bureau concerning our ongoing analysis of commerce<BR>
raiding operations during the Fifth Frontier War.  During that conflict,<BR>
the primary naval vessels capable of extended commerce raiding<BR>
operations behind enemy lines were cruisers, which were often in far<BR>
greater demand within Imperial space.  Destroyers such as the _Midu<BR>
Agashaam_ class, though admirably suited to fleet operations, were not<BR>
optimal for commerce raiding, due to their low cargo capacity and<BR>
limited capability for lengthy patrols.  As a result, Sector HQ has<BR>
provided AuricTech with a contract for 12 destroyer-type vessels, with<BR>
features designed to make these ships capable of extended commerce<BR>
raiding missions.<BR>
<BR>
However, to explore concepts in commerce raider design not addressed by<BR>
the AuricTech design, Sector HQ has decided to open a design competition<BR>
for a commerce raider, within the following parameters:<BR>
<BR>
1,000-5,000 dton commerce raider, at TL15 (GTL12);<BR>
J4 or better;<BR>
4G or better (6G preferred to allow fleet operations);<BR>
Life support endurance of at least 26 weeks without replenishment;<BR>
Frontier refueling capability;<BR>
At least one carried craft (for boarding parties, prize crews, and<BR>
transfer of captured cargo);<BR>
Some onboard space for captured cargo/prisoners;<BR>
Sufficient personnel carried (awake/frozen watch) to act as boarding<BR>
parties and/or prize crews;<BR>
Capable of defeating civilian armed ships up to 20kDt (turret lasers,<BR>
sandcasters, non nuclear missiles, no screens, no armour) and military<BR>
vessels up to 1,000 dton;<BR>
A combination of low observability and high sensor capability.<BR>
<BR>
Each contestant will receive a contract for BCr 55.2, for procurement of<BR>
vessels of the entered design.  Note that this amount assumes that there<BR>
is no discount for volume production.  This budgetary figure is based on<BR>
the cost of the 12 AuricTech ships currently contracted by Sector HQ. <BR>
Note, however, that full-scale procurement contracts will be based on<BR>
the standard 20% volume discount.<BR>
<BR>
All contestant ships will be compared both with AuricTech's _Sculpin_<BR>
class and with each other, for a contract of at least BCr 300 in<BR>
additional purchases.  Future contracts may also be let for service on<BR>
other Imperial frontiers.<BR>
<BR>
**end transmission**<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:59:02 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12: The AuricTech Entry (longish) [T4]<BR>
<BR>
Designer's notes will be provided with my submission to Jason for<BR>
posting on the THUDDD site.  However, since THUDDD 12 entrants are being<BR>
asked to compete with this design, I post it here for comparison with<BR>
your proposals.  BTW, the Akins spreadsheet has been updated to include<BR>
the G-comp correction mentioned below, and can be downloaded from:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
(follow the "Depot" link from the main page)<BR>
<BR>
**begin design post**<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Sculpin-class Commerce Raider<BR>
<BR>
Design System:  FF&S2 (Akins spreadsheet ver 3.2, with correction of<BR>
G-comp power consumption)<BR>
<BR>
Tons: 3000 std (SL Short Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic) <BR>
Dimensions: 61.7 m x 30.6 m x 30.6 m<BR>
Volume: 42000 m3<BR>
Cargo: 220 std (8 x Large hatch/8 x 25-ton cargo handlers) <BR>
Mass (L/C): 31573 t / 27258 t <BR>
Maintenance Points: 1009<BR>
Passengers High/Med/Low:  None <BR>
Crew: 49 / 91 <BR>
Frozen Watch: 0<BR>
Cost: 4538.547 MCr <BR>
Tech Level: 15<BR>
Size: 9 <BR>
<BR>
Electronics<BR>
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 16 x FltComp (CM: 0.2 CP:<BR>
5.0). 6 x FibComp (CM: 0.2 CP: 5.0). Terrain-following sensors (TF: 570,<BR>
NOE:190). Bridge.<BR>
Communications: 2 x Radio (1,000 AU, 0.2 MW). 4 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0<BR>
MW).<BR>
Sensors: 1xPEMS (14 [50 mkm], 0.05 MW). 1xAEMS (12.5 [5 mkm] LP, 50 MW).<BR>
4x LIDAR (15 [2 mkm], 2.5 MW<BR>
Survey/Science: None<BR>
ECM: 1 x Radio Jammer (1,000 AU, 0.4 MW). 1 x Deceptive Jammer (11, 0.16<BR>
MW)<BR>
Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR: -0.5 (-.5 at 5318 MW, -1 at 801 MW), Act:<BR>
- -0.5, Neu:-1, Grav:1<BR>
<BR>
Performance <BR>
4 Jump (300 std/pc fuel)<BR>
6 / 6.9 Maneuver (Thruster: 4697 MW)<BR>
No Contra-grav <BR>
5000 kph/5000 kph Atmosphere Maximum <BR>
3750 kph/3750 kph Atmosphere Cruise <BR>
5 Power (Fusion: 8010 MW,1yr) <BR>
0 Battery <BR>
1257.4 Fuel (Scoop: 5/Purif: 48, 11 MW) <BR>
92/4/10/24 Accommodations (Small Stateroom/Large Stateroom/Low<BR>
Berth/Emgy Low Berth) <BR>
2496 Life Sup. (Type: Extended, Good Food/Storage) <BR>
6 G-Comp <BR>
12 x Sandcaster (AV: 97/Cans: 27)<BR>
172 Meson Screen (9.245 MW)<BR>
30 [115] Armor, 34 Structure <BR>
<BR>
Weapons:<BR>
12 x 81 MJ Twin Laser Turret (+6) 1 /4-4-4-4 [2, 400/23-23-23-23] (Point<BR>
Defense ROF: 800)<BR>
1 x Missile Bay Auto 4/4 (Mag: 76, MFD: 500 kkm) w/80 Cmd DL 1d6/2 6G12<BR>
1000 AU<BR>
1 x 1876 MJ NPAW Light Spinal Mount (+6) 2/9-9-9-9 [1,<BR>
100/308-308-308-308]<BR>
<BR>
Features:<BR>
30 x Airlock<BR>
1 x Docking Umbilical<BR>
1 x Electronic Shop (6 std)<BR>
1 x Machine Shop (10 std)<BR>
1 x Sickbay (8 std)<BR>
1 x Armory (3.43 std)<BR>
1 x Gym (2.5 std)<BR>
1 x Lounge (23 std)<BR>
1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 40)<BR>
2 x Full Galley (Cap: 48 ea)<BR>
1 x Ship's locker (1.5 std.) <BR>
<BR>
Small Craft:  1 x Min Hangar (50 std, 1 x hatch)<BR>
 <BR>
Backups <BR>
Drives: None <BR>
Screens: None<BR>
Communications: None <BR>
Sensors: 2 x PEMS (14 [50 mkm]).  1 x AEMS (12 [1.6 mkm]). 4 x LIDAR<BR>
(14.5 [500 kkm]).<BR>
ECM: None <BR>
Power & Fuel: Fusion (400 MW). <BR>
<BR>
Crew Details 4 x Maneuver. 32 x Engr. 1 x Maint. 14 x Gunner. 13 x<BR>
Screen. 2 x Flight. 12 x Command. 10 x Troops. 1 x Medical.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:01:49 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 12:  Representative Freightliner (as target) (longish)<BR>
<BR>
This ship should be considered as the upper range of targets for THUDDD<BR>
12 entries:<BR>
<BR>
**begin transmission**<BR>
<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Ghartrz Star Large Freightliner<BR>
<BR>
Tons: 20000 std (SL Sphere Hypersonic) <BR>
Dimensions: 81.2 m diameter<BR>
Volume: 280000 m3<BR>
Cargo: 11460 std (200 hatches, Hdl: 200 x 40 t) <BR>
Mass (L/C): 242496 t / 78017 t <BR>
Maintenance Points: 3647<BR>
Passengers High/Med: 100 High / 224 Med<BR>
Crew: 94 / 160 <BR>
Frozen Watch: 0<BR>
Cost: 4088.239 MCr   (Cost Multiplier .8 for standard design)<BR>
Tech Level: 12<BR>
Size: 10 <BR>
<BR>
Electronics<BR>
Controls: Dynamic, High automation.). 3 x FltComp (CM: .35 CP: 2.86). 3<BR>
x Comp (CM: .35 CP: 2.86). Terrain following sensors (TF: 480 NOE: 160).<BR>
Bridge.<BR>
Communications: 2 x Radio (1,000 AU, 0.2 MW). 4 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0<BR>
MW).<BR>
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6 mkm], 0 MW). 1xAEMS (11 [.16 mkm] LP, .13<BR>
MW). 2 x LIDAR (14 [200 kkm], 0.2 MW).<BR>
Survey/Science: None<BR>
ECM: None<BR>
Signatures: Vis: 0, IR: 1 (0.5 at 9856 MW, 0.5 at 1070 MW), Act: 0.5,<BR>
Neu: 1, Grav: 1<BR>
<BR>
Performance <BR>
2 Jump (2000 std/pc fuel) <BR>
1 / 3 Maneuver (Thruster: 5761 MW)<BR>
No Contra-grav <BR>
1672 kph/3880 kph Atmosphere Maximum <BR>
1254 kph/2910 kph Atmosphere Cruise <BR>
1 Power (Fusion: 10700 MW,1yr) <BR>
0 Battery<BR>
4115.1 Fuel (Scoop:3 / Purif: 48, 43 MW) <BR>
374/110/0/121 Accommodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low<BR>
Berth) <BR>
5808 Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Excellent Food/Storage) <BR>
1 G-Comp <BR>
8 Sandcasters (AV: 150 / Cans: 35)<BR>
0 [20] Armor, 44 Structure <BR>
<BR>
Weapons:  4 x Turret (+0) 1/ 2-0-0-0 [1, 800/20-10-5-2] (Long range)<BR>
<BR>
Features:<BR>
200 x Airlock <BR>
1 x Electronic Shop (6 std ea)<BR>
2 x Machine Shop (10 std ea)<BR>
3 x Sickbay (8 std ea)<BR>
2 x Ship's locker (10 std ea.)<BR>
4 x Prisoner capacity (2 Mdm security, 2 High security)<BR>
2 x Armory (2.14 std ea)<BR>
6 x Gym (2.5 std ea)<BR>
3 x Lounge (60 std ea)<BR>
6 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 70 ea)<BR>
2 x Full Galley (Cap: 60 ea) <BR>
<BR>
Small Craft: <BR>
6 x Docking Ring (30 std)<BR>
4 x Docking Ring (50 std)<BR>
<BR>
Backups <BR>
Drives: None <BR>
Screens: None<BR>
Communications: <BR>
Sensors: 1 x PEMS (12.5 [1.6 mkm]).  1 x AEMS (11 [.16 mkm] LP)<BR>
ECM: None <BR>
Power & Fuel: Fusion (600 MW) <BR>
<BR>
Crew Details: 2 x Maneuver.  67 x Engineer.  6 x Maintenance.  4 x<BR>
Gunner.  8 x Screen.  18 x Flight.  12 x Troops.  19 x Command.  3 x<BR>
Medical.  21 x Steward.<BR>
<BR>
Notes:  This design is representative of medium-to-large freightliners<BR>
found plying the high-volume lanes throughout the Imperium.  Although<BR>
more modern designs are more profitable, the Ghartrz Star design is<BR>
sufficiently profitable (MCr 92.3 annual profit at full load, during the<BR>
ship mortgage period) to enable it to serve into the foreseeable<BR>
future.  Indeed, as a TL12 [GTL10] design, the Ghartrz Star is<BR>
especially useful in underdeveloped regions, such as the Spinward<BR>
Marches, where more sophisticated designs may find annual maintenance<BR>
and spare parts more difficult to obtain.  For those customers who<BR>
desire the higher profitability of a more modern vessel, AuricTech<BR>
offers the Nixxon Star class, which uses the greater capabilities of<BR>
TL15 equipment per dton to increase the cargo capacity with no drop in<BR>
performance.<BR>
<BR>
**end transmission**<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1963<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1964</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 24 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1964<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Cat physics (Was:  Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water)<BR>
Space ecosystems- an evolutionary imparitive<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Help Needed<BR>
RE: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Terrans in Spaaaaaaaace!<BR>
FWD: Fifth Frontier War for auction<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nukes - yes please<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:14:01 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Cat physics (Was:  Re: the cat's writhing splashes boiling water)<BR>
<BR>
WARNING:  Please finish what you are eating or drinking<BR>
          before you begin reading the following post.<BR>
<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> BTW, exactly how much damage will a near-C cat do?  Having<BR>
> never cohabited with a cat, I profess ignorance of this matter.<BR>
<BR>
Cats present some interesting physics conundrums.  It is<BR>
believed that cats actually do no travel near-c, but rather<BR>
have a warp field that causes time to change, so they only<BR>
appear to approaching the speed of light.<BR>
<BR>
There are some other physical constants that only apply to<BR>
cats and we can use some of these to get around some of<BR>
the trickier physics problems that face us today.<BR>
<BR>
What follows is a quote from a learned scholar on the topic.<BR>
<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
Statements:<BR>
<BR>
1)  If you drop a buttered piece of bread, it will fall on the floor<BR>
butter-side down.<BR>
<BR>
2)  If a cat is dropped from a window or other high and<BR>
    towering place, it will land on its feet.<BR>
<BR>
Questions:<BR>
<BR>
What if you attach a buttered piece of bread, butter-side up<BR>
to a cat's back and toss them both out the window?  Will the<BR>
cat land on its feet, or will the butter splat on the ground?<BR>
<BR>
Answer:<BR>
<BR>
Even if you are too lazy to do the experiment yourself you<BR>
should be able to deduce the obvious result. The laws of<BR>
butterology demand that the butter must hit the ground, and<BR>
the equally strict laws of feline aerodynamics demand that<BR>
the cat can not smash its furry back. If the combined<BR>
construct were to land, nature would have no way to resolve<BR>
this paradox. Therefore it simply does not fall.<BR>
<BR>
That's right, you have discovered the secret of antigravity!  A<BR>
buttered cat will, when released, quickly move to a height<BR>
where the forces of cat-twisting and butter repulsion are in<BR>
equilibrium. This equilibrium point can be modified by<BR>
scraping off some of the butter, providing lift, or removing<BR>
some of the cat's limbs, allowing descent.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the civilized species of the Universe already use this<BR>
principle to drive their ships while within a planetary system.<BR>
The loud humming heard by most sighters of UFOs is, in<BR>
fact, the purring of several hundred tabbies.<BR>
<BR>
The one obvious danger is, of course, if the cats manage to<BR>
eat the bread off their backs they will instantly plummet. Of<BR>
course the cats will land on their feet, but this usually doesn't<BR>
do them much good, since right after they make their<BR>
graceful landing several tons of red-hot starship and<BR>
pissed-off aliens crash on top of them.<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Flaws In the Flying Cat Theory: A Response<BR>
<BR>
A logical analysis of the BFAD (Buttered Feline Antigravity<BR>
Drive) propulsion theory clearly demonstrates the<BR>
impossibility of such a system.<BR>
<BR>
Let us begin with a simple analysis.<BR>
<BR>
1) Buttered bread always falls butter side down.<BR>
2) A cat always lands on its feet.<BR>
<BR>
While both theorems are indisputable, the oracle offers no<BR>
proof of the construct. The oracle implies that anyone who<BR>
'would' test this construct would immediately find the secret<BR>
of BFAD.<BR>
<BR>
This is clearly nonsense.<BR>
<BR>
Let us assume a normal Einsteinian universe (although a<BR>
Euclidean universe would serve our purposes just as well, the<BR>
Einsteinian is both cheaper and drinks are readily available).<BR>
<BR>
To test BFAD, one must procure:<BR>
1)  Bread<BR>
2)  Butter (margarine, for some reason, will not work)<BR>
3)  A cat<BR>
4)  A strapping device.<BR>
<BR>
Let us assume that all of these are readily available.  Attach<BR>
the strapping device to the cat.<BR>
<BR>
See?<BR>
<BR>
No cat.<BR>
<BR>
What has happened?  We have run up against an a priori<BR>
universal law.  By a priori, we mean that it takes priority over<BR>
either the Buttered Bread Principle or the Law of Feline<BR>
Landings.  What happens is that the instant a strapping<BR>
device and a cat occupy the same four dimensional space,<BR>
the cat disappears.<BR>
<BR>
Now, this can easily be tested, and has been repeatedly.<BR>
There are two schools of thought about this phenomenon.<BR>
<BR>
The first holds that a cat and a strapping device are<BR>
constituted out of different fundamental building blocks.<BR>
According to this theory, a cat is constituted primarily of<BR>
superquarks, (called meows by current theorists.) These<BR>
superquarks demonstrate qualities that are both atomic<BR>
(constituted as they are of groupings of normal quark<BR>
particles) and feline (because these quarks exhibit<BR>
characteristic of "charmed"  or "lucky" particles.)<BR>
<BR>
Again, according to this theory, strapping materials are<BR>
fashioned out of non-charmed particles. Bringing the two<BR>
together causes one or the other to cancel out. One aspect<BR>
of this theory that has not been sufficiently explained to date<BR>
is the fact that it is always the cat, not the strapping device,<BR>
that disappears.<BR>
<BR>
The second school of thought, and it is one that appears to<BR>
be gaining ground in academic circles today, holds that cats<BR>
are, in fact, super-intelligent pan-dimensional beings who<BR>
exist in our four dimensional universe only because there is<BR>
plenty of good food and a lot of creatures stupid enough to<BR>
provide the food, along with plenty of attention. Whenever a<BR>
strapping device appears, the cat simply opens a door to a<BR>
different series of dimensions, and goes on an extended<BR>
tour.<BR>
<BR>
According to this theory, purring is a cat's way of maintaining<BR>
a constant balance cycling across multiple dimensions. This<BR>
school holds that antigravity is impossible, but that<BR>
theoretically, a REALLY good grip on a cat, while reaching<BR>
for a strapping device, could result in our ability to cross<BR>
dimensions with ease (barring scratches, that is.)<BR>
<BR>
Pessimists argue that if there was anything really interesting<BR>
in those other dimensions, cats wouldn't spend so much time<BR>
here, so why ask for a good scratching?<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
LOL  I hope you enjoyed this a much as I did.<BR>
<<<<<<<BR>
<BR>
I trust all keyboards came through cleanly.  And return you to<BR>
your regularly scheduled Trav fare.<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 20:17:25 -0800<BR>
From: "Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net><BR>
Subject: Space ecosystems- an evolutionary imparitive<BR>
<BR>
I would like to propose a way for conventional life to evolve to<BR>
live in vacuum.  If we start with a small planet and it gets<BR>
bombarded with snow balls (comets), it would develop an<BR>
atmosphere and hydrosphere and life could arise.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, the planet is small and cannot retain its<BR>
atmosphere over the long run, so those life forms would have<BR>
to adapt to the ever decreasing atmosphere.  Life is<BR>
tenacious and so we can postulate that such evolution<BR>
continues to meet the needs survival in the ever more rarified<BR>
atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
As the atmosphere thins, the life forms will develop greater<BR>
lung capacity, some will develop methods of getting<BR>
nutritive elements directly from the soil that used to come<BR>
from the atmosphere.  I should think that it would be possible<BR>
to get oxygen from many types of soil if it is a conventional<BR>
type life form that uses oxygen for burning food.<BR>
<BR>
I should think that skins would thicken to keep internal<BR>
pressures up and that most survivors would develop some<BR>
way of retaining oxygen within the body.  The larger life forms<BR>
might be able to digest the smaller ones not just for proteins<BR>
and other gross nutrients, but also for their oxygen content.<BR>
<BR>
There could be unicellular organisms that would live in the<BR>
soil.  Perhaps they are the only things that can actually<BR>
extract the oxygen.  Then there would be small multi-cellular<BR>
organisms that feed on them. Then larger organisms that<BR>
feed on them and so on and so forth.  Depending upon the<BR>
other evolutionary imperatives, intelligence might even arise,<BR>
perhaps even sapience.<BR>
<BR>
Can you imagine what a space ship that intelligence might<BR>
create would be like?  There would be no need for life<BR>
support as we think of it.  They could just have some soil with<BR>
geneered life forms designed to be extremely good at<BR>
extracting nutrients and food stock geneered to efficiently<BR>
convert the microorganism into something palatable to our<BR>
intrepid explorers.  They could colonize any airless world and<BR>
would need nothing more than their geneered life support<BR>
elements to make it habitable.<BR>
<BR>
Over time, some branches could develop on larger and<BR>
larger airless worlds.  Who knows, with their thick skins or<BR>
hermetic exoskeletons, perhaps an atmosphere wouldn't<BR>
bother them.  The possibilities are limitless.<BR>
<BR>
Okay, now what did I overlook?<BR>
- --<BR>
Cybernaut<BR>
______________________________________________<BR>
    The rules have changed...  Get paid to surf the web.<BR>
http://www.alladvantage.com/home.asp?refid=BMM-972<BR>
Please tell them BMM-972 if they ask who recruited you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________<BR>
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World<BR>
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at<BR>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:38:36 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
On 02/23/00 at 09:27 AM,  "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Actually I was lobbying in favor of Vilani Battle Riders in the 5k to 10K<BR>
>range. which gives the smaller Terran ships more of a chance at the<BR>
>beginning of the conflict.<BR>
<BR>
>The Terrans hit TL 11 about two years after the first war so maybe they<BR>
>captured some Vilani computers or something.  The Terrans could then<BR>
>build ships with spinal mounts which seems to fit with CT canon.  It's<BR>
>really only the First of the Nth interstellar wars that there is such a<BR>
>disparity in the maximum ship sizes.  After that it evens out until the<BR>
>Terrans invent J-3 Drives and really start kicking Vilani behinds.<BR>
<BR>
TL 11 brings Meson Cannon for the Terrans, something the Vilani had<BR>
never invented or even heard of before.  They had standard tactics<BR>
for PAWS, lasers, and missile attack and defence, they had nothing<BR>
for these strange new weapons, and the Vilani weren't noted for<BR>
improvising.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:33:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'll send you the sheet offlist but here's how it works.<BR>
><BR>
> On the spreadsheet you need to input the yield of the warhead<BR>
> ( in kilotons ) and the distance from the target<BR>
> ( in meters ) when the warhead detonated.<BR>
><BR>
> I take the kiloton yield and convert to megajoules; from Dietrich Shroeer's<BR>
> _Science Technology and the Nuclear Arms Race_  one kilogram of TNT is<BR>
> approximately equivalent to 4 Megawatts or Megajoules per second.<BR>
<BR>
1 MT is *defined* as 4.2e15 Joules.<BR>
<BR>
> I take the distance from target measurement and calculate the surface area<BR>
> of the fireball at the point it intersects the target.  From there you will<BR>
> see the amount of delivered megajoules per square meter.  It follows that<BR>
> the farther away the detonation, the larger the fireball surface area, the<BR>
> lower the megajoules.<BR>
><BR>
> To finally answer your question below.... you'll find that one megaton<BR>
> yields at 1000 meters is not delivering very many megajoules per square<BR>
> meter.  Unless my equations are all wrong which is definitely possible.<BR>
<BR>
The trick is that a nuclear explosion releases something like 90% or<BR>
better of its energy in the form of soft x-rays. In an atmosphere,<BR>
these are almost all absorbed by the air (which is almost opaque at<BR>
x-ray frequencies) within a few meters from the bomb. This heats the<BR>
air  to really high temps, causing both the "heat pulse" and the "blast<BR>
wave". <BR>
<BR>
In space, this doesn't happen. You get a pretty weak shock wave from<BR>
the actual material of the bomb being vaporized. And this *huge* pulse<BR>
of x-rays. <BR>
<BR>
A fatal dose of x-rays is only a few hundred rads (600?). Call it 1000.<BR>
<BR>
I forget the figures for absorption, etc, but basicly, without *good*<BR>
shielding, such a blast is *fatal* to exposed personnel at<BR>
multi-thousand *kilometer* ranges. <BR>
<BR>
For shielding, you can look up the thicknesses of various materials<BR>
required to cut incoming radiation by 50%. Then you use those to figure<BR>
out how much radiation penetrates the hull of the ship. <BR>
<BR>
Trust me, at TLs up to 9, radiation will be the big killer. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 21:44:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Eric Henry writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> To finally answer your question below.... you'll find that one megaton<BR>
>> yields at 1000 meters is not delivering very many megajoules per square<BR>
>> meter.  Unless my equations are all wrong which is definitely possible.<BR>
><BR>
> One megaton at 1,000 meters is equivalent to 1 ton at 1 meter, or about 330<BR>
> MJ/m^2.  That's enough to vaporize 6-8mm of steel, which won't get through<BR>
> the armor on any traveller starship.  However, the primary damage mechanism<BR>
> in space isn't direct vaporization, it's a thermal shock effect, and I <BR>
> suspect<BR>
> a megaton at 1,000 meters would be a fairly unpleasant experience for any<BR>
> unarmored ship.<BR>
<BR>
Won't matter. Unless they've got ridiculous amounts of armor on the<BR>
ship, the radiation dosages received will render them unconcious<BR>
quickly. And they'll die hours to days later.<BR>
<BR>
I guess an article on radiation exposure should go on my list. Alas,<BR>
all my references (most from manuals on building radiation protective<BR>
shelters (yes, I'm almost *that* old)) are in storage.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 01:19:25 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Help Needed<BR>
<BR>
Gentlebeings,<BR>
<BR>
Once again, being separated from most of my reference material proves to be a <BR>
problem.<BR>
<BR>
Can someone fax me the GDW TNE Illos of the Ithklur? I need what few were <BR>
done as artist reference for the Alien Races 3 book.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 22:33:21 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Trust me, at TLs up to 9, radiation will be the big killer.<BR>
<BR>
Back in the days when I had the 5H ASI in the U.S. Army (nuclear and<BR>
chemical target analyst), we would actually target tactical weapons using<BR>
*only* radiation as the killing effect. Why? Because the other effects like<BR>
blast, thermal, etc, are not as predictable as the radiation. When you<BR>
consider that metal armor, like you have on a tank, provides very good<BR>
protection against radiation, you have to be fairly close to armored units<BR>
to take them out with tactical nukes. One weapon might take out an armored<BR>
*company*<BR>
<BR>
Further, if you compare the lethal radius for radiation with the lethal<BR>
radius for blast effects, you will find that the radiation kill radius is<BR>
bigger for smaller (tactical, battlefield) weapons, while the blast kill<BR>
radius is bigger for much larger weapons. I don't recall the crossover<BR>
point, but it's for a fairly large weapon. So for moderate sized weapons,<BR>
the radiation is more effective than the other effects.<BR>
<BR>
If you are fighting a mechanized battle, the tree blowdown from tactical<BR>
nukes can also cause serious mobility problems. But you certainly don't get<BR>
these effects in space. On the other hand, this could be a good way for high<BR>
TL troops using grav vehicles to impede lower TL mechanized troops. You<BR>
don't even need to target troops, just forested areas.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:26:06 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terrans in Spaaaaaaaace!<BR>
<BR>
>From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
...<BR>
>1. Terran ships are TL10, with TL11 computers.<BR>
>2. Terran Hulls can be comprable to Vilani due to superior Terran computers.<BR>
>3. Terrans use lasers (due to superior aiming with terran computers, and less<BR>
>reseliant on fleet supply) Lasers are at TL9-10<BR>
>4. Terrans have Jump 1 only.<BR>
...<BR>
>I still like the idea of giving terra a -1 TL manouver drive penalty until say<BR>
>the 3rd or 4th IW.<BR>
...<BR>
<BR>
  What rules? Under HG2 the two sides would be nearly identical except for<BR>
the preferred armaments loads. OTOH, that's pretty much how _Imperium_<BR>
present it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:26:51 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: FWD: Fifth Frontier War for auction<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: Fifth Frontier War for auction<BR>
>From: john@kovalic.com (John Kovalic)<BR>
>Date: 22 Feb 2000 19:07:41 GMT<BR>
>Message-ID: 3023<BR>
>Newsgroups: sjgames.gurps.traveller<BR>
><BR>
>Just placed this in the Marketplace section.<BR>
><BR>
>If someone could forward it to the Traveller Mailing List, I'd <BR>
>appreciate it.<BR>
><BR>
>John<BR>
><BR>
>FIFTH FRONTIER WAR game by GDW (Traveller) <BR>
        http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=267253983<BR>
>Box pretty worn. Maps, booklets and charts near-mint, pieces <BR>
>UNPUNCHED!<BR>
>Minimum bid: $24.00<BR>
><BR>
>                Soylens viridis homines est.<BR>
>     ***************************************************<BR>
>        DORK TOWER #8 ("High Sobriety'") is OUT SOON!<BR>
>     ***************************************************<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:27:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ray Wiberg wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> > <BR>
> > In fact any varaiation missle info is welcome. One of the things I've been<BR>
> > wondering (taken from my stock of many Traveller questions) is why it<BR>
> > seems that 3I standrd missles seem to be nuclear x-ray missles.<BR>
> <BR>
> The standard military missile is the nuke-pumped det-laser, because,<BR>
> between point defense and nuclear dampers, only a det-laser can get<BR>
> close enough to a military target to inflict useful damage.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
 Why not just stick to laser turrets? Seems more resource sound, though<BR>
 you may not do as much damage. <BR>
<BR>
 Also, many ships (non mili or raider types) don't have screens at all.<BR>
 I just figure different payloads should be available. <BR>
<BR>
 Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 05:11:25 -0500<BR>
From: "Bloo" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 10:37 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Now this is real heresy.<BR>
<BR>
Hee hee.  Eris!  You got room over there for another?<BR>
"Heretic" might look pretty nice on a stitched baseball<BR>
cap.<BR>
<BR>
>  The Blue Book, whose complete name is<BR>
> The Blue Book: A Uniform System of Citation, is one of the most<BR>
> useful tools provided to our profession.  Without it, we would<BR>
> not have a uniform system, but rather as many systems of<BR>
> citation as there are law firms, lawyers, courts, law schools,<BR>
> and pro pers writing briefs and articles.  This would be an<BR>
> insane world -- truly hell on earth.  <BR>
<BR>
So if I don't use small capital letters in the citation for something<BR>
or other, it ruins your day?  How many different ways are there<BR>
to cite Marbury v. Madison?  I'm not against clear citations.<BR>
I'm against arcane and irrelevant citation methodology.<BR>
I have faith in my ability to correctly point a person to a reference<BR>
in a newspaper, periodical, or even a comic book, without <BR>
paying strict adherence to where every comma, colon, semicolon,<BR>
etc., should go.  If its not clear to you, then its my fault.<BR>
<BR>
> Think of this:  the Blue Book allows us to spot writers who do<BR>
> not use proper citation form instantly.  That fact tells us<BR>
> immediately that the writer may be one of more of the following:<BR>
>  sloppy; untrained; not a lawyer; not a law review editor; an<BR>
> iconoclast wannabe; unable to afford a secretary or law clerk<BR>
> who knows the Blue Book; or possibly sloppy.<BR>
<BR>
And don't forget "too damn busy to make it Blue Book perfect."<BR>
Civil law, maybe its easier because you can usually see things coming.<BR>
But in the prosecution offices I have worked in, from Texas District<BR>
Attorneys, to Boston US Attorney Task Force, there are other more<BR>
pressing concerns.  <BR>
<BR>
>  Now a sloppy<BR>
> citation to my mind suggests sloppy reasoning, and I hope that<BR>
> it suggests the same to the judge reading that brief -- because<BR>
> I know that my citation form is always correct.<BR>
<BR>
I often find that geniuses are sloppy.  Though not all slops are<BR>
geniuses.<BR>
 <BR>
> Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.<BR>
> Technical Editor, Suffolk University Law Review, 1987-88<BR>
<BR>
Bloo, Lord of Blooville, Archbishop of Packard's Corner,<BR>
Protector of Stupid the Cat, Master Drinker of Guinness and<BR>
Naysayer of Esquires, Boston University School of Law, <BR>
Law Review Non-Applicant, President of Rugby Football<BR>
Club, All Around Great Guy, Class of 1998<BR>
<BR>
Ob. Trav.:  Lawyers in the 3I?  We don't have much canon<BR>
on the practice of Imperial Law.  Most people seem to favor<BR>
using the nobililty here to some degree, especially for judges.<BR>
(Personally, I prefer to ennoble those who become judges,<BR>
with a non-heriditary rank title, than drawing judges from the <BR>
landed gentry/peers).  Will there be an Imperial Bar?<BR>
Will lawyers/barristers/solicitors/advocates have to wear<BR>
robes and wigs? <BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 23:15:34 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Feb 00, at 21:44, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Eric Henry writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> To finally answer your question below.... you'll find that one megaton<BR>
> >> yields at 1000 meters is not delivering very many megajoules per square<BR>
> >> meter.  Unless my equations are all wrong which is definitely possible.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > One megaton at 1,000 meters is equivalent to 1 ton at 1 meter, or about<BR>
> > 330 MJ/m^2.  That's enough to vaporize 6-8mm of steel, which won't get<BR>
> > through the armor on any traveller starship.  However, the primary<BR>
> > damage mechanism in space isn't direct vaporization, it's a thermal<BR>
> > shock effect, and I suspect a megaton at 1,000 meters would be a fairly<BR>
> > unpleasant experience for any unarmored ship.<BR>
> <BR>
> Won't matter. Unless they've got ridiculous amounts of armor on the<BR>
> ship, the radiation dosages received will render them unconcious<BR>
> quickly. And they'll die hours to days later.<BR>
> <BR>
> I guess an article on radiation exposure should go on my list. Alas,<BR>
> all my references (most from manuals on building radiation protective<BR>
> shelters (yes, I'm almost *that* old)) are in storage.<BR>
<BR>
My parents have an old encyclopedia from the early 1960s, published in <BR>
the US that has a very large section on civil defence in nuclear war, <BR>
and on shelters, etc, etc. It also has a fine chart of radition <BR>
sickness and its symptoms, with IIRC some very optimistic doseage <BR>
levels.<BR>
<BR>
I found it to be facinating reading as a kid.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:55:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Then there that star called Sol, nominally G2V but actually a variable with<BR>
> a small, but measurable increase in energy output as it ages. To paraphrase<BR>
> "I don't think this star is entirely stable"<BR>
<BR>
*ALL* main sequence stars "heat up" as they age. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:57:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 19:08 22.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
> [spaclings/space reefs]<BR>
>>> But cellular bio-fusion-reactors? A little bit too hard to imagine for my<BR>
>>> personal taste. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Well, you do have to keep in mind the fact that they can "live" off the<BR>
>>energy from *one* fusion reaction for a *long* time. So if they somehow<BR>
>>manage to "luck into" a process that can both fuse hydrogen *and let<BR>
>>them utilize the enery with even a 1% efficiency, they've got it made.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, _if_ they manage  that, I aggree. But it's alittle hard to imagine for<BR>
> me, that's all. You produce a lot of energy at time with fsion. IMHO too<BR>
> much for a lifeform to use/save it.<BR>
><BR>
>>>  No, what I was looking for was a bit more "conservative": Life as we know<BR>
>>> it, but ertrapolated into a future where some if it has managed to adapt <BR>
> to<BR>
>>> hard vacuum, zero-G and hard radiation. (Would be a damn good enemy race<BR>
>>> fpor a TV show, don't you aggree? :-) )<BR>
>><BR>
>>Hard radiation *survival* for unicellular forms is fairly easy. We have<BR>
>>lots of examples. <BR>
><BR>
> Unicellular, right. But what about multicellular life?<BR>
><BR>
>>Being able to *utilize* hard radiation as an energy source is *just* as<BR>
>>hard as biological fusion (in fact they are essentially the same<BR>
>>problem!) <BR>
><BR>
> It is?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, because no matter how the organism manages to *cause* the fusion<BR>
of hydrogen atoms, it has to be able to *use* the energy produced,<BR>
which is hard radiatioin, and atoms moving so fast that they might as<BR>
well be hard radiation.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, the use of radiation (though not hard one) _has_ been solved in the<BR>
> past. Chlorophyll. It was this what I assumed: Some kind of hard radiation<BR>
> chlorophyll. An ecosystem based on this could, a few other problems solved,<BR>
> be an interesting possibility. <BR>
<BR>
Sure, but chlorophyll uses *light*. Photons of light are of an energy<BR>
level such that they can be absorbed by molecules, and the energy used<BR>
for chemical reactions. <BR>
<BR>
Get very far into the UV part of the specturm and they are energetic<BR>
enough to *break* chemical bonds. By the time you get to gamma rays, if<BR>
they are absorbed, they'll disrupt the hell out of the molecule. That's<BR>
because you can't absorb part of a photon. You absorb either *none* of<BR>
it, or *all* of it. <BR>
<BR>
Basicly "hard radiation" is *too* energetic. Sort of like trying to run<BR>
your car engine on TNT. <BR>
<BR>
It's possible to absorb a photon, and then re-emit one of a lower<BR>
energy. But even that only allows certain sorts of "steps". Stepping<BR>
hard radiation down to usable wavelengths requires things that just<BR>
plain won't *fit* in a cell.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:10:32 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nukes - yes please<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> They built the plants because according the best info available at the time,<BR>
> they were *cheap*, and by the time it was needed, the facilities would be<BR>
> available. They *could not* know that costs would become so astronomical,<BR>
> nor that construction of the requireing processing facilities would be<BR>
> delayed so long. Both of which can be laid squarely at the feet of the<BR>
> anti-nuke folks.<BR>
><BR>
> - -- <BR>
> Leonard <BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Boo anti nuke folks, boo. How could they reject nuclear power based on feeb<BR>
> concerns about intensely radioactive  waste being stockpiled and the like.<BR>
> Boo. And hey as for power itself, there has never been a problem with a<BR>
> major melt down or anything (cough Chernobol cough Major increase in cancers<BR>
> for thousands of miles in path of wind patterns cough radioactively in the<BR>
> food chain cough). <BR>
<BR>
There were and are people with valid concerns. But the movements, and<BR>
the lawsuits they started as well as many of the laws they got passed<BR>
were the work of *extremists*. People who if they were concerned about<BR>
animals instead of nuclear power would be members of PETA (or worse).<BR>
<BR>
I've encountered *far* too many people spreading information that 5<BR>
minutes in a library would show was *wrong*. And I don't mean getting<BR>
"technical" details wrong. I'm talking about complete and utter *lies*<BR>
present only for the psychological effect on the uninformed.<BR>
<BR>
One of the most common examples is "Plutonium is the most toxic<BR>
chemical on earth". Sorry, but arsenic is 30 times as toxic. And *many*<BR>
things are more toxic than that. <BR>
<BR>
*IF* you get *absorbable* PU (ie in a chemically mobile form, not the<BR>
Pu oxide used in just about everything) it can wind up in bones, where<BR>
it will cause problems. As the oxide, you could *eat* the stuff. And<BR>
it'd pass thru your digestive tract unchanged (I wouldn't recommend<BR>
this, because it could still zap a few cells on the way thru, and there<BR>
are folds where it could get caught). Inhaling dust would be bad if you<BR>
got very much. But at least it'd be easy to find and remove, unlike a<BR>
lot of other things you can inhale that are *just* as bad.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, we had a "local" company have to move huge piles of "sludge" from<BR>
a metals processing operation. Nothing to do with nuclear stuff. They<BR>
extracted rare metals from monazite sands. Stuff like the cerium used<BR>
in the "flints" in cigarette lighters.<BR>
<BR>
The problem was that after they removed everything else from it, what<BR>
was left behind had a moderate amount of thorium and other *naturally<BR>
occuring* radio-isotopes. Which made the "sludge" "nuclear waste" under<BR>
a state law that the voters had been scared into passing (with the<BR>
avowed intent of making lifer harder for the nuclear industry. Never<BR>
mind that it made life difficult for all the everyday industries that<BR>
use radio-isotopes for testing (x-ray type stuff) and for the nuclear<BR>
medecine folks at the hospitals). <BR>
<BR>
As "nuclear waste" it had to be relocated because it was near a river.<BR>
Nevermind that it was about as radioactive as granite...<BR>
<BR>
> I for one won't stand for greenies and other leftie types putting the planet<BR>
> ahead of profit. Boo. Most of them are illl informed about what they are<BR>
> protesting about - hell most of them probably don't even know how good a<BR>
> Dolphin tastes. Boo. Hell, most of them don't even want Nuclear tests<BR>
> !?!?!?!?!?! That's just CRAZY. And how about those stupid environmental<BR>
> impact statements - just why the hell can't they determine the effects of a<BR>
> proposed industrial site over the next 100 or so years in just 6 weeks -<BR>
> that's not efficient at all. I could do it in a day.<BR>
<BR>
And I won't stand for people who don't care about reality, just about<BR>
destroying the "evil nuclear <fill in the blank>". <BR>
<BR>
As I've said before, these extremist *nuts* have made dealing with<BR>
*real* problems impossible. For much the same reason that peace in<BR>
Northern Ireland seems to be impossible. Because the fanatics won't<BR>
accept any solution that isn't a 100% win for *them*, even if their<BR>
idea of a "win" is neither practical, nor something a *sane* person<BR>
would want.<BR>
<BR>
> Boo.<BR>
><BR>
> Ob Trav; Is there an organized environmental group in 3I like those sad<BR>
> Geenpeace losers? Do they go around to developing planets (pre-stellar-) to<BR>
> hassle corporations/governments that don't have effective environmental<BR>
> controls? Do they encourage people to question what investments their<BR>
> pension funds are making?<BR>
<BR>
The mere existence of colonies on vacuum worlds, world with<BR>
unbreathable atmospheres, and worlds with alien ecologies, plus<BR>
*millenia* of observing the environment impact of various activities<BR>
means that they will *know* what works and what doesn't. Among other<BR>
things, they'll know what the long term *costs* of various things are. <BR>
<BR>
That means that enivronmental effects will be part of the costs figured<BR>
into the balance sheet for any proposal.<BR>
<BR>
And that they'll have a lot of folks with the attitude that damaging<BR>
things needlessly is intolerable. Face it, if *you* came from a world<BR>
where you had to *pay* for air, and dumping the wrong sort of trash<BR>
into a disposal slot was good for a hefty fine (because it could screw<BR>
up recycling and damage the air, water or food production) wouldn't you<BR>
be a bit upset with anybody who didn't bother to *check* what the<BR>
outputs from their mine/factory/city might do to the environment? <BR>
<BR>
I expect there will be sufficient horror stories about colonies that<BR>
managed to kill off the local plankton, or do something equally stupid<BR>
and wound up dying (or nearly dying) as they ran out of food, water or<BR>
air. Even worlds with breathable atmospheres could drop to barely<BR>
breathable if you killed the local algae equivalent in the oceans, and<BR>
didn't manage to get a replacement oxygen producer thriving in time. <BR>
<BR>
Weather changes are possible too. Kill too much vegetation, and you can<BR>
break rain cycles. Leading to drought for *long* distances downwind. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1964<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1965</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 24 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1965<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Give me an N, give me a U...<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
Re: Terrans in Spaaaaaaaace!<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Gal@ngo fo fa t@re, lesson 2<BR>
RE: Space ecosystems (long)<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
THUDDD 13 (or THUDDD 12a) Proposals?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 00:41:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Give me an N, give me a U...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Personally, I find it unconscionable that the lumber industry foisted wood<BR>
> on us without first figuring out how the wood supply was going to<BR>
> regenerate, and without a thought towards such problems as soot, smoke, ...<BR>
> And that the coal industry foisted coal on us without once thinking about<BR>
> air pollution, acid rain, strip mining, ...<BR>
> And we won't even talk about the auto industry.  Not a thought about smog!<BR>
> And the list goes on...<BR>
> While I'll admit that the nuclear power people were a bit short-sighted, we<BR>
> can hardly consider them worthy of exceptional condemnation for that.<BR>
> Short-sightedness appears to be the natural state of man.<BR>
><BR>
> A.J.<BR>
><BR>
> Good call. I mean man has been burning wood, what 300k+ years, and coal as<BR>
> soon as we figured it was for burning and not for eatin'. As for cars, well<BR>
> it was the 1910's when that kicked off and frankly weren't thinking then at<BR>
> all. We've had nuclear power since what, the fifties? Talk about backward -<BR>
> brylcream, big cars, bobby socks. I really don't expect that those people<BR>
> who could split the atom could have seen any of the small amount of problems<BR>
> that were going to arise. As for possible radiation contamination - I mean<BR>
> who was going to test for that? You'd have to have been pretty stupid to<BR>
> drop nukes on your own soldiers to discover what could happen.  <BR>
><BR>
> Idiots. <BR>
><BR>
> Ob Trav; Does the Ministry of Information put out cheesy public awareness<BR>
> commercials to reduce concerns of the populace at large; What about 'The<BR>
> Imperial Navy - where your money goes', 'Those dirty Zhos', 'Near C rocks<BR>
> won't happen to you'. I'd like to see that....<BR>
<BR>
See my other message. I expect that in school on most planets the<BR>
history (*and* science!) course dwell on incidents where people doing<BR>
"innocent" things, or just not bothering to stop and think things thru<BR>
caused disaster on worlds much like theirs. <BR>
<BR>
Writing up some of those might be fun. <BR>
<BR>
And you could have some PC innocently suggest something that all the<BR>
*natives* know leads to an ecological catastrophe and getting reactions<BR>
ranging from losing a business contract on thru geting the "cold<BR>
shoulder" everywhere, to harassment, to getting beaten up (or jailed)<BR>
or even deported.<BR>
<BR>
> In fact, in T5, wouldn't it be great to see some Imperial Govt posters like<BR>
> Star Wars had (recruitment posters for the storm troopers etc.). That's some<BR>
> good stuff right there.<BR>
<BR>
Check Bujold's "Ethan of Athos" for some small *hints* of what life in<BR>
a controlled ecology would be like. "Komarr" has some more ideas, this<BR>
time for a partially terraformed world. <BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, if you can find a copy of "The Making of 2001" one of the<BR>
color plates is a clear closeup of the "zero-g toilet" instructions.<BR>
Just the thing to reproduce and hand to your players at an appropriate<BR>
moment... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 23:50:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 6:36 PM -0800 2/22/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>> Actually evidence for life goes back 3.5-3.9 billion years ago<BR>
>>> (700 to 1100 million years after the system formed).  Mutlicellular<BR>
>>> life comes much later, but theories on why that is true are pretty<BR>
>>> much just "theories".<BR>
><BR>
>>True, but there's evidence of *several* geological events between then<BR>
>>and the "Cambrian explosion" of multi-cellular forms that would have<BR>
>>wiped out any higher lifeforms that had existed, unless they'd gotten<BR>
>>as far as we have.<BR>
><BR>
> The current theory is that multi-cellular life need to wait until<BR>
> an oxygen atmosphere was formed before it could get started.  I<BR>
> haven't heard any theories, at least ones that gained wide circulation,<BR>
> that claimed life started before the Cambrian explosion (though<BR>
               ^^^^<BR>
I assume you mean "multi-cellular" life...<BR>
<BR>
> I have heard claims that move it back in time a bit).<BR>
<BR>
And in any case, from what I've read it probably took under a million<BR>
years to go from a CO2/N2 atmosphere to an O2/N2 atmosphere, even if<BR>
the O2 levels were lower than what we have now.<BR>
<BR>
>>For example, at one point, the moon is thought to have moved *in* from<BR>
>>where it formed, gotten fairly close and spiralled back out again. At<BR>
>>the closest approach, the difference between high tide and low tiude is<BR>
>>greater than the average depth of the oceans! Which means the oceans<BR>
>>would likely have eroded the continents like mad, until you got to the<BR>
>>point of having two tidal bulges, half a mile or more deep following<BR>
>>the moon around the globe.<BR>
><BR>
> I've not heard that.  I have heard about catastrophic flooding<BR>
> of continents (due to funny techtonics _very_ early on).  The<BR>
> Moon, as far as I have heard, has been moving out since formation.<BR>
<BR>
That may well be superceded, but don't have to source I remember handy<BR>
to check. :-(<BR>
<BR>
I think it depends a lot on the original rotation rate of Earth, and<BR>
the distance at which the moon formed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 06:13:01 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
"Cybernaut" <cybernaut@netzero.net> asks:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>There was only one entry for THUDDD 11.  Apparently, no one else wanted to<BR>
>do a non-GURPS design for a Modular Cutter.  If anyone else has or wants to<BR>
>do a non-GURPS design for this THUDDD, I could reopen the submissions.  If<BR>
>not, I am face with a dilemma.  Do I put it up for voting and commentary?<BR>
>Do I simply declare that one design the winner?  Do I cancel THUDDD 11 for<BR>
>lack of interest?  Or do I move THUDDD 12 into it's place as though there<BR>
>never was a Modular Cutter design for THUDDD 11?  Please advise me.<BR>
<BR>
 Swap 'em, or rather, their finish order. Let the THUDD 12 entries develop to <BR>
the posted finish date, then repost THUDD 11 with whatever date 13 would have <BR>
used, and push back the rest.<BR>
<BR>
 On that note, I don't recall seeing any detailed notes here on either of the <BR>
most recent THUDDDs.  Am I supposed to be looking somewhere for the notices?<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:36:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
There have been various threads recently about TL 9 "hard science" games,<BR>
and lots of stuff on where habitable worlds would be, and so on, so I got<BR>
thinking about possible future history settings for such games.  Here's one<BR>
chain of thought I've had:<BR>
<BR>
- - First of all, this is not _anything_ like the OTU.  No Vilani, no<BR>
Ancients, no Imperium, etc.  It's an expansion from Earth, in the not too<BR>
distant future.<BR>
 <BR>
- - Balkanisation is good.  There is no possible united Earth government in<BR>
the forseeable future that (a) wouldn't suck in reality, and (b) is more<BR>
fun in the game than having lots of rival Earth nations.<BR>
<BR>
- - However, in the real world, some of these Earth nations are _lots_ more<BR>
powerful than others.  We need to offset this somehow, or else deal with<BR>
the US and EU annexing the galaxy....  That could be fun - kind of like<BR>
Pournelle's CoDominium - but it's not quite what I'm looking for.<BR>
<BR>
- - One possible way of doing this would be by international treaties.  The<BR>
idea is that no nation can claim territory off Earth, and that<BR>
internationally recognised bodies exist to vaguely coordinate scientific<BR>
research on other worlds.  (And these treaties are ultimately enforced by<BR>
the fact that Earth nations are still fundamentally Earth-based, and need<BR>
to live here.)<BR>
<BR>
- - In other words, nations wanting to colonise feel the need to pretend that<BR>
they aren't.  This means that they will tend to work through "foundations",<BR>
corporations, and other outfits, giving referees all the elbow room they<BR>
could possibly want.  Of course, if they want to use major nations they<BR>
can, or, if they're so inclined, they can say that organisations are using<BR>
flags of convenience.  If that's the case, then anywhere on Earth could<BR>
have an interstellar fleet, quite disproportionate to their size.  It's not<BR>
even necessary that it should be a country that presently exists - any old<BR>
cabbage patch could declare itself independent, and sign a deal with some<BR>
"scientific research" organisation, and provide a legal figleaf for the<BR>
latter's empire building.  And of course, all these little empires are not<BR>
so secretly run by major governments, assisted by corporations, or<BR>
sometimes even vice versa.<BR>
<BR>
- - The idea, I think, is to strike a flexible (and unstable!) balance<BR>
between major nation-states, micro-states, international alliances,<BR>
superstates like the EU, megacorporations, and so on, which the referee can<BR>
tweak as convenient.  And it's also highly suitable for high-level colony<BR>
management games - which is the main reason I want it so open-ended.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's something like what I am going to handwave towards.  The key<BR>
elements are (a) balkanisation and (b) international treaties limiting<BR>
individual national expansion.  Neither of these are particularly difficult<BR>
to imagine.  The rest of it probably needs a bit of refinement - the kind<BR>
that can't really happen while I'm sitting at a keyboard.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, this is how I would go about doing a heretical 21st century<BR>
setting.  If anyone else wants to talk about their ideas, they should feel<BR>
free to do so - I would be interested.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:57:46 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Bloo" <BR>
> Will there be an Imperial Bar?<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, not as such.  However, according to Azhanti High Lightning, there is<BR>
an Imperial Wine Cellar.  We can also expect that Lucan would have a rather<BR>
large stash of whatever it is that he is on.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:17:20 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
"Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>I may have to get a copy of FF&S2 or FF&S1.  Which is better (regarding<BR>
>>alternate Trav tech and CT/MT convertability)?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
>In my humble Opion.. FF&S2 is better for CT/MT converstion.<BR>
>the rule set of T4 was very close to CT/MT.<BR>
<BR>
In mine, FF&S2 is also better for understanding the design sequences.<BR>
However you must add the errata (especially for the equations).<BR>
<BR>
FF&S is better on the alternate technologies and explaining the<BR>
background and reasons for the design decisions.<BR>
<BR>
Plus I still use the rule - if something looks wrong in FF&S2 check in<BR>
FF&S and if it's the same, I'll assume that it's not an error.<BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid that this looks like a "buy both" suggestion. Not that helpful<BR>
when both are out of print.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 07:36:57 -0500<BR>
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gregory.svenson@honeywell.com><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
I suggest declaring the one entrant the winner and going ahead with THUDDD<BR>
#12.<BR>
Greg<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:12:15 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
I've actually got the following on order.<BR>
   Javelin<BR>
   Rattler  (nice fighter)<BR>
   Praying Mantis<BR>
<BR>
Other Silent Death ships that I like are the Prowler and the Conestoga. I'll<BR>
look at the Fletcher. www.rafm.com has a JAVA picture catalog of much of the<BR>
Silent Death line.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I actually think the Full Thrust miniatures look more Trav-esqe. But I'm<BR>
never sure which ones are which. Anyone know of any good pictures on the<BR>
web?<BR>
<BR>
Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Black ICE [mailto:wombat@premier.net]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 10:02 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Steven Hudson wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > >From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
> > >Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >When I talked with the guys at RAFM, I got the impression that the<BR>
> > >unreleased Traveller miniatures existed and I almost <BR>
> convinced them to sell<BR>
> > >me some. My guess though is that they actually became <BR>
> Silent Death ships, I<BR>
> > >just don't know which ones.<BR>
> > <BR>
> >   Hmm, if so then they weren't of any canonical Trav ships, <BR>
> in which case<BR>
> > I'm not very interested in having them anyway :(  OTOH, <BR>
> I've looked at the<BR>
> > Silent Death ships quite carefully (ID'ing which ones were <BR>
> of TNE origins)<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm pretty sure that the following Silent Death miniatures had their<BR>
> start as TNE ships (listed by Silent Death nomenclature, as I <BR>
> don't know<BR>
> the TNE names):<BR>
> <BR>
> Praying Mantis<BR>
> Rattler<BR>
> Hornet<BR>
> Firebat<BR>
> Equalizer<BR>
> <BR>
> All of these Silent Death ships are described in the Universal Night<BR>
> Watch supplement. <BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, a couple of the Silent Death "warhounds" (escort-class ships) do<BR>
> look plausibly Travelleresque, IMHO (specifically the <BR>
> Constellation and<BR>
> Fletcher).<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
> <BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:19:34 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terrans in Spaaaaaaaace!<BR>
<BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
> Ok, this is a basic summery of Terran capabilities are as follows:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. Terran ships are TL10, with TL11 computers.<BR>
> 2. Terran Hulls can be comprable to Vilani due to superior Terran computers.<BR>
> 3. Terrans use lasers (due to superior aiming with terran computers, and less<BR>
> reseliant on fleet supply) Lasers are at TL9-10<BR>
> 4. Terrans have Jump 1 only.<BR>
> <BR>
> At the closing of 1st IW, the terrans discover J2, and other tech that<BR>
> catagories Tl11, and have TL12 computers which makes terran hulls LARGER than<BR>
> vilani equivelents.<BR>
<BR>
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this: at some point between the<BR>
1st and Nth IW, the Terrans invented the Meson gun. Which was a pretty<BR>
big deal - in terms of game mechanics, it's a more effective weapon. In<BR>
terms of game background, the Terrans' new ability to make Vilani warships<BR>
explode from the inside, regardless of how much armour they had, was a<BR>
serious psychlogical weapon - it had the Vilani scared shitless.<BR>
<BR>
And of course, the Terrans nearly wiped out all the other human races<BR>
with the Plague of Duskir... [ducking from incoming near-c rocks].<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:29:10 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
Alan showed his true heretical colors by talking about scenarios<BR>
where Earth would be allowed to develop in the vacuum of a larger<BR>
interstellar foe.<BR>
<BR>
What he's describing (balkanized Earth) seems to resemble <BR>
Traveller 2300, doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
Well Alan, it sounds like a fruitful alternative; to get the best<BR>
of both worlds, however, I'd still have the Vilani and Imperium;<BR>
just kick them out of the Solomani Rim and let Terra do its own<BR>
thing and grow into an interstellar power for a few centuries<BR>
before encountering aliens.  Could that work?<BR>
<BR>
That would give you plenty of nasty Terran internecine warfare<BR>
and STILL have room left over for the chaos created by the<BR>
introduction of the Vilani later... I can see it now...<BR>
<BR>
2020  Colony on moon<BR>
2030+ Begin colonization of Mars & Belt<BR>
2080+ Discovery of jump drive<BR>
2100  "Colonies" on Barnard's and Alpha Cent.<BR>
2200  Established "colonies" on a few worlds.<BR>
2300  "Colonies" have significant presence.<BR>
<BR>
And 2300 is when This Heretical Solomani Confederation finds the<BR>
Vilani; and things are much more hostile from the get go.<BR>
<BR>
As for balancing weak nations against the strong, you could make<BR>
it a double-edged sword: Terra is "crowded" [ a political term ],<BR>
and governments are willing to assist groups of people into<BR>
space... of course, those living in poorer countries would make<BR>
the most economic sense for de facto deportation.  Let's face it:<BR>
colonizing a world is almost always nastier than colonizing a <BR>
continent.<BR>
<BR>
This way, colonies are usually made up of people from the poorer,<BR>
less powerful nations; as often or not this colony may eventually<BR>
benefit the parent nation.  Maybe.  Of course it always benefits<BR>
Terra [ trade agreements, military agreements ... ]<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 08:41:56 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
I have a space combat project which includes some of these idea.  If you<BR>
ignore the rules and look at the scenarios, timeline, and background<BR>
information you may find items of interest.<BR>
<BR>
the project is at www.crosswinds.net/~ehenry/dskies.htm<BR>
<BR>
There are two rules sets there, an older set with accelerations in .1G<BR>
increments and s newer set with 1G increments.  Have a look at the older<BR>
set.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Hi all,<BR>
>There have been various threads recently about TL 9 "hard science" games,<BR>
>and lots of stuff on where habitable worlds would be, and so on, so I got<BR>
>thinking about possible future history settings for such games.  Here's one<BR>
>chain of thought I've had:<BR>
><BR>
>- First of all, this is not _anything_ like the OTU.  No Vilani, no<BR>
>Ancients, no Imperium, etc.  It's an expansion from Earth, in the not too<BR>
>distant future.<BR>
><BR>
>- Balkanisation is good.  There is no possible united Earth government in<BR>
>the forseeable future that (a) wouldn't suck in reality, and (b) is more<BR>
>fun in the game than having lots of rival Earth nations.<BR>
><BR>
>- However, in the real world, some of these Earth nations are _lots_ more<BR>
>powerful than others.  We need to offset this somehow, or else deal with<BR>
>the US and EU annexing the galaxy....  That could be fun - kind of like<BR>
>Pournelle's CoDominium - but it's not quite what I'm looking for.<BR>
><BR>
>- One possible way of doing this would be by international treaties.  The<BR>
>idea is that no nation can claim territory off Earth, and that<BR>
>internationally recognised bodies exist to vaguely coordinate scientific<BR>
>research on other worlds.  (And these treaties are ultimately enforced by<BR>
>the fact that Earth nations are still fundamentally Earth-based, and need<BR>
>to live here.)<BR>
><BR>
>Anyway, this is how I would go about doing a heretical 21st century<BR>
>setting.  If anyone else wants to talk about their ideas, they should feel<BR>
>free to do so - I would be interested.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:37:04 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
David Summers writes:<BR>
>The current theory is that multi-cellular life need to wait until<BR>
>an oxygen atmosphere was formed before it could get started.  I<BR>
>haven't heard any theories, at least ones that gained wide circulation,<BR>
>that claimed life started before the Cambrian explosion (though<BR>
              ^^^^<BR>
>I have heard claims that move it back in time a bit).<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Presumably you meant "multicellular life"   :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:00:47 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Gal@ngo fo fa t@re, lesson 2<BR>
<BR>
Gal@ngo   fo  fa  t@re<BR>
Galanglic for far traders<BR>
<BR>
Lesson 2 - Questions<BR>
- --------------------<BR>
Now we get into some useful sentences which the TML finds<BR>
important.<BR>
<BR>
The question words below are usually pronounced with a hard<BR>
'H' sound, similar to the 'ch' in "l'chaim".  They are all<BR>
directly from English.<BR>
<BR>
Hat  - what<BR>
Hou  - how<BR>
Hu   - who<BR>
Haer - where<BR>
Hai  - why<BR>
<BR>
Note: hai is also used as a greeting and as a word meaning<BR>
agreement.  Caveat t@re!<BR>
<BR>
Hat kesta that kago?  How much does that cargo cost?<BR>
<BR>
(Literally, "what cost" + "that cargo")<BR>
<BR>
Haer ar the caveat leb@la?   Where are the warning labels?<BR>
<BR>
Hu can@ bai is?  Who can buy these?<BR>
<BR>
Ai ne can@ bai is.  I cannot buy these.<BR>
<BR>
(Literally, "I no can" + "buy this")<BR>
<BR>
Hat ar @s pranet@ UWP?  What is this planet's UWP?<BR>
<BR>
(Literally, "what is this-planet-UWP")<BR>
<BR>
Hat ar is praneta UWP?  Whare are these planets' UWPs?<BR>
<BR>
Ar Gumishir luker@ti-ka?  Is piracy lucarative?<BR>
<BR>
(Gumishir is borrowed from Vilani slang for "Flaming Eye", the <BR>
Vilani term for piracy.  The final '-ka' ending is a vocalized<BR>
question mark sometimes used for emphasis or clarification.<BR>
The 'ka' ending is borrowed from Japanese.)<BR>
<BR>
Ar Gumishir-ga luker@ti-ka?  But is PIRACY lucarative?<BR>
<BR>
(The -ga particle emphasizes Gumashir, as if the speaker<BR>
is turning attention from a previous subject to the subject<BR>
of piracy.  This is also from Japanese.)<BR>
<BR>
Hai, Gumishir ar luker@ti.<BR>
It is agreeable to me that piracy is lucarative.<BR>
<BR>
Gumishir ne ar luker@ti.<BR>
Piracy is not lucarative.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:01:29 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Space ecosystems (long)<BR>
<BR>
Cybernaut writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>As the atmosphere thins, the life forms will develop greater<BR>
>lung capacity,<BR>
<BR>
	Yes, but this will be an evolutionary dead end as those big<BR>
	lungs will probably become useless once the air is gone.<BR>
	Except possibly as a storage organ.<BR>
<BR>
>some will develop methods of getting<BR>
>nutritive elements directly from the soil that used to come<BR>
>from the atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
	Perhaps, depending on what "nutrients" they got from the<BR>
	atmosphere.  Pretty much all we get from our atmosphere is<BR>
	O2.<BR>
<BR>
>I should think that it would be possible<BR>
>to get oxygen from many types of soil if it is a conventional<BR>
>type life form that uses oxygen for burning food.<BR>
<BR>
	If you mean liberating oxygen from compounds in the soil<BR>
	to use it as a final electron acceptor (ie. to use it<BR>
	to "burn" food), it doesn't work.  Everything that you<BR>
	would gain by "burning" food with O2 you would loose in<BR>
	liberating the O2 from the soil in the first place.<BR>
	Even if O2 was being used for something else, there would<BR>
	have to be some system to return it to the soil somehow.<BR>
<BR>
>I should think that skins would thicken to keep internal<BR>
>pressures up and that most survivors would develop some<BR>
>way of retaining oxygen within the body.<BR>
<BR>
	Probably internal pressure would initially fall with<BR>
	atmospheric pressure, then breathing organisms would<BR>
	have to find a way of presurizing the very thin air to<BR>
	allow O2 to diffuse into the blood (assuming life forms<BR>
	similar in function to the Terran example).<BR>
<BR>
>The larger life forms<BR>
>might be able to digest the smaller ones not just for proteins<BR>
>and other gross nutrients, but also for their oxygen content.<BR>
<BR>
	Just for reference, a typical human has difficulty holding<BR>
	breath for more than 1 minute, and it is a rare human<BR>
	indeed who can hold it for more than 3 minutes.  Aquatic<BR>
	mammals, of course, can hold their breath for much longer,<BR>
	but rely on replentishing their stores regularly and<BR>
	restricting blood flow to many systems.  These are not<BR>
	long-term solutions.  Many "cold-blooded" animals can last<BR>
	longer still, and I would expect than O2-using animals<BR>
	evolved to a vacuum would have very low metabolic rates,<BR>
	perhaps almost stopped until some signal prompted them to<BR>
	become (relatively) active.  In any event, you would need<BR>
	to eat a lot of animals to get the O2 that you need from<BR>
	them.<BR>
<BR>
>There could be unicellular organisms that would live in the<BR>
>soil.  Perhaps they are the only things that can actually<BR>
>extract the oxygen.  Then there would be small multi-cellular<BR>
>organisms that feed on them. Then larger organisms that<BR>
>feed on them and so on and so forth.<BR>
<BR>
	You are on the right track: you need to start with primary<BR>
	productivity (plants).  If we assume that these start out<BR>
	similar to Terran plants and continue to evolve adaptations<BR>
	to the thining atmosphere, increasing radiation, etc., we<BR>
	might end up with Gas Crystals (named by the belters that<BR>
	discovered them): each is a photosynthetic organism with a<BR>
	size between a billiard ball and a softball, inside a<BR>
	hemispherical structure the size of a beach ball.  The<BR>
	"beach ball" is actually a shell made up of mineral crystal<BR>
	with a thin layer of living cells behind which are attached<BR>
	to the body by the ~0.1 mm thick filaments.  The body<BR>
	itself is made up of a protective layer, photosynthetic<BR>
	tissue, storage organs, and a reproductive system.  Thin<BR>
	roots penetrate into the substrate (soil, rock, asteroid,<BR>
	or better yet a comet)<BR>
<BR>
	The crystal shell, the air stored between the shell and the<BR>
	body, and the outer layer of the body protect the organism<BR>
	from most hard radiation.  In addition, the chemical makeup<BR>
	of the organism's cells is very stable, particularly the<BR>
	reproductive system which is housed in the center and is<BR>
	surrounded by mineral deposites.  The layer of cells under<BR>
	crystal repairs damage to the crystal.  EM radiation of<BR>
	appropriate energy passes through the shell to the body and<BR>
	is used for photosynthesis.  Food is moved very slowly<BR>
	around the organism by diffusion and active transport from<BR>
	cell to cell.  Metabolic rates are very low.  Roots very<BR>
	slowly liberate valuable elements from the substrate, and<BR>
	the organism is almost a self-enclosed ecosystem, recycling<BR>
	everything.<BR>
<BR>
	It may take decades, even centuries, to store up enough<BR>
	material to reproduce.  These are asexual organisms, one<BR>
	fully-formed offspring body develops onside the body, then<BR>
	slowly migrates to the edge of the shell where it meets<BR>
	the substrate.  Metabolism in the offspring then speeds up,<BR>
	as establishing itself will be difficult: the shell is<BR>
	resorbed, the offspring moves out and inflates the layer<BR>
	that will excrete its shell, closes off the opening in the<BR>
	parents shell, and hooks up to the root system established<BR>
	by the parent.  If the root system is getting crowded, an<BR>
	alternative type of reproduction will occur in which the<BR>
	offspring does not remain attached to the substrate or<BR>
	parent, pushing off to become a free-floating "seed."<BR>
<BR>
	The result is colonies of crystal globes with occasional<BR>
	colonizers floating away.  Now, will anything eat these?<BR>
	This is long enough, maybe I will get to that later.<BR>
<BR>
	Comments?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:32:08 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
>  Why not just stick to laser turrets? Seems more resource sound, though<BR>
>  you may not do as much damage.<BR>
<BR>
The faster you get a kill, the less time you are exposed to taking damage<BR>
yourself.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  Also, many ships (non mili or raider types) don't have screens at all.<BR>
>  I just figure different payloads should be available.<BR>
<BR>
If they have a laser turret, they have point defense -- and lasers don't<BR>
miss. A single laser turret can take down a ridiculous number of incoming<BR>
missiles, especially if the missiles have to get close to the ship to do<BR>
damage (as a HEAT or KEAP missile would).<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 10:35:31 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
> On the subject of walkthroughs - I have created some Doom WADs based on<BR>
> Traveller deckplans.  This thread prompted me to post them (the mostly<BR>
> finished and non-corrupted ones, anyway) to my web site.<BR>
<BR>
These are very cool -- at least the screenshots are. Since I haven't seen a<BR>
copy of Doom in about 5-6 years, I wasn't actually able to walk through<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:01:25 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: THUDDD 13 (or THUDDD 12a) Proposals?<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have any suggestions for THUDDD 13?<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'm fond of warships (cost-plus contracts!  WOO-HOO!), and I<BR>
think that there are not enough post-MT large warship designs.  However,<BR>
since THUDDD 12 is a military ship, I can see the need to mix 'em up. <BR>
Maybe a TL-12 medium-to-large freightliner?  Say, in the 5000-10,000<BR>
dton range?  Such a ship would be useful for multiple milieux, and would<BR>
give PCs an example of the kind of ship with which they are having to<BR>
compete.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1965<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1966</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, February 24 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1966<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Altitude Sickness<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems- an evolutionary imparitive<BR>
RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
RE: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Walkthroughs<BR>
Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
Missle Efficentecy vs Beam Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
re: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire <BR>
RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Walkthroughs :  ADDRESS<BR>
re:  Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
primary productivity in vacuum<BR>
Re: waste and real waste<BR>
Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nukes - yes please<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:06:45 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Altitude Sickness<BR>
<BR>
There's a good article about altitude sickness on the ESPN Web site:<BR>
<BR>
http://espn.go.com/trainingroom/s/injury/index.html<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Problems associated with travel to worlds with atmospheres<BR>
thinner than one's home world; shifts in pressure and/or gravity aboard<BR>
ships in Jump space, to allow passengers and crew to acclimate to the<BR>
destination world.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:00:14 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 23:57 23.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Basicly "hard radiation" is *too* energetic. Sort of like trying to run<BR>
>your car engine on TNT. <BR>
<BR>
I see. But wouldn't a lifeforms develop strategies to lessen the level of<BR>
energy before absorbing, enough time provided? (perhaps roughly comparable<BR>
to a straying(exp?) prisma for light?<BR>
<BR>
>It's possible to absorb a photon, and then re-emit one of a lower<BR>
>energy. But even that only allows certain sorts of "steps". Stepping<BR>
>hard radiation down to usable wavelengths requires things that just<BR>
>plain won't *fit* in a cell.<BR>
<BR>
So don't use a cell. What about larger, "died matter" structures in the<BR>
lifeform, like crab shells or hair?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:18:11 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 11:25 17.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>      If you want to include<BR>
>	a native vacuum-life-form in YTU, I would suggest that it<BR>
>	would tend to spend 99.9999999999+% of its time as a spore,<BR>
>	waiting for a fortuitous impact with something that it can<BR>
>	use for raw materials (A starship? What will the PCs do if<BR>
>	their vessel starts to be digested?).<BR>
<BR>
Well, I was thinking of some kinfd of asteroid-belt dwellers... which would<BR>
make the use of spores or the lke probable for travel between different<BR>
rocks. Sounds good. Especially as an adventure idea for belters...<BR>
<BR>
>	I would be easier to imagine life that evolved on a planet,<BR>
>	gas giant, comet, etc., then became adapted to free space.<BR>
<BR>
That was what I had in mind originally.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:54:23 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems- an evolutionary imparitive<BR>
<BR>
At 20:17 23.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I would like to propose a way for conventional life to evolve to<BR>
>live in vacuum.  If we start with a small planet <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>Life is<BR>
>tenacious and so we can postulate that such evolution<BR>
>continues to meet the needs survival in the ever more rarified<BR>
>atmosphere.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>Can you imagine what a space ship that intelligence might<BR>
>create would be like?  There would be no need for life<BR>
>support as we think of it.  <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>Over time, some branches could develop on larger and<BR>
>larger airless worlds.  Who knows, with their thick skins or<BR>
>hermetic exoskeletons, perhaps an atmosphere wouldn't<BR>
>bother them.  The possibilities are limitless.<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, now what did I overlook?<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps one thing: Perhaps the higher presure could be a problem for the<BR>
VL's (vaccum lifeforms). Just as high pressure in the deep sea is a problem<BR>
for us today. (Or is this a misunderstanding of the evolutionary processes<BR>
you described?)<BR>
<BR>
You only forgot to mention one possible next step after the intelligences<BR>
settle space: Lesser vacuum lifeforms being settled in asteroid belts ans<BR>
on distant moons.<BR>
<BR>
Their spaceships (if they built any, we are still on a Traveller mailing<BR>
list) would be much more efficient than those of other, planet-bound races.<BR>
If they had a small empire, they would be a formidable "enemy race". If<BR>
they were Imperials, every starship commander would prefer to have a few of<BR>
them as his crewmembers.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:22:11 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
...<BR>
>Other Silent Death ships that I like are the Prowler and the Conestoga. I'll<BR>
>look at the Fletcher. www.rafm.com has a JAVA picture catalog of much of the<BR>
>Silent Death line.<BR>
<BR>
  There's one ship from the Silent Death line (IIRC) that looks a bit like<BR>
the "Interstellar Queen" (?) from Stablefords (?) novels. Needless to say<BR>
I heaved the packaging, but I'll try and check the next time I'm in front<BR>
of the rack of product. Scales to about 6-700 Dt compared to RAFM stuff.<BR>
<BR>
>I actually think the Full Thrust miniatures look more Trav-esqe. But I'm<BR>
<BR>
  $$$! :(<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:29:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> So, why can't you simply raise the power output?  At least with all <BR>
> conventional power plants, one which produces 10x as much power<BR>
> has a mass considerably lower than 10x as great.  <BR>
<BR>
That depends.  There are usually multiple scaling laws present in a power plant.  The one which will cripple any attempt at building huge high-performance power plants is that any power plant needs cooling, and for radiative cooling 10x as much power will have a mass considerably _greater_ than 10x as high.<BR>
> <BR>
> Given that we have no idea how large an efficient fusion rocket (as <BR>
> opposed to the primitive versions we are likely to develop in the <BR>
> next 20-40 years) would be, and upscaling the power may well be <BR>
> considerably more efficient wrt mass, I'm not sure why fusion <BR>
> rockets would be limited to low accelerations.<BR>
<BR>
For reasons of cooling, a power output of more than a megawatt per square meter is rather unlikely.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:30:30 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
Nice work Andrew, and quite a bit of it too :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of AB<BR>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 3:06 AM<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On the subject of walkthroughs - I have created some Doom WADs based on<BR>
> Traveller deckplans.  This thread prompted me to post them (the mostly<BR>
> finished and non-corrupted ones, anyway) to my web site.<BR>
> <BR>
> I put up some screen shots too.<BR>
> <BR>
> If anyone is interested check out:<BR>
> http://www.rossmack.com/ab/RPG/traveller/TravDoomIndex.asp<BR>
> <BR>
> -AB<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:44:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Won't matter. Unless they've got ridiculous amounts of armor on the<BR>
> ship, the radiation dosages received will render them unconcious<BR>
> quickly. And they'll die hours to days later.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, that's only in the vicinity of 300 million rads in exposed surfaces.  More to the point, any noticeable level of armor will drop that immediately down to about a million rads by stopping all the X-rays.  From there on you're worried about penetrating radiation, which basically requires around 20/density cm of generic matter to stop 90%.  15 cm of steel will pull it down to an acceptable<BR>
1 rad.<BR>
<BR>
Anything which is hardened enough for long-term space habitation won't be significantly affected by the radiation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:47:49 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs<BR>
<BR>
Joseph Dietrich writes:<BR>
>>On the subject of walkthroughs - I have created some Doom WADs<BR>
>>based on Traveller deckplans.  This thread prompted me to post<BR>
>>them (the mostly finished and non-corrupted ones, anyway) to<BR>
>>my web site.<BR>
>These are very cool -- at least the screenshots are. Since I<BR>
>haven't seen a copy of Doom in about 5-6 years, I wasn't<BR>
>actually able to walk through them.<BR>
<BR>
	Where are these?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:15:13 +0100<BR>
From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" <ca-nilse@online.no><BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
>> On the subject of walkthroughs - I have created some Doom WADs based on<BR>
>> Traveller deckplans.  This thread prompted me to post them (the mostly<BR>
>> finished and non-corrupted ones, anyway) to my web site.<BR>
><BR>
>These are very cool -- at least the screenshots are. Since I haven't seen a<BR>
>copy of Doom in about 5-6 years, I wasn't actually able to walk through<BR>
>them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What was the address? I still have Doom lying around, but I think I might have missed the url this message refers to.<BR>
<BR>
Carl Roger Nilsen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:37:24 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Missle Efficentecy vs Beam Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 12:46 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<SNIPED<BR>
>At this point, using the previously-suggested handwave that the Terrans<BR>
>had computers at TL 11, you then can see why the Terrans preferred beam<BR>
>weapons.  After all, effective beam weapons require good computers,<BR>
>while effective missiles require both good computers _and_ efficient<BR>
>missile drive systems.  The Terrans, with an overall TL of 9-10,<BR>
>couldn't easily build missiles that had enough thrust to be useful in<BR>
>combat against the Vilani.  They therefore linked their TL 9-10 lasers<BR>
>and PAWs to TL 11 fire control systems, and had a merry old time.<BR>
>Vilani ships, OTOH, tended to use missiles as their primary weapon.<BR>
>Missiles, when equipped with efficient drives, require less power from<BR>
>the launching vessel, and are thus more efficient than power-hungry beam<BR>
>weapons.<BR>
><BR>
Missiles are more efficient if you just look at the power star ships power<BR>
plant tonnage and fuel bunkerage but I believe that they are expensive. You<BR>
have to replace missiles and they are always limited to the amount that you<BR>
can carry on ship. While Beam weapons are only limited to the out put of the<BR>
power plant. IMTU this formed the back bone of my navel doctrine that stated<BR>
that smaller ships will which can not be fitted with bay weapons would use<BR>
missiles to score Mission kills on star ships. And why I dug up Ramparts Mk<BR>
V from challenge 27 as a version that was in service to kill capital ships.<BR>
( It took a fudge because I play TNE but it works fighter with 6 missiles<BR>
and explains the 2 seaters).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:22:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
>Subject: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done <BR>
>to death already  sorry)<BR>
<BR>
>I'm working slowly on my first contact years and I've hit a <BR>
>conundrum. When the Terrans and the Vilani first mixed it up<BR>
>the Terrans were TL 9 and the Vilani were tl 11.  Using High <BR>
>guard that limits the Terrans ship size to 1K tons or less and <BR>
>the Vilani to 50K tons or less.<BR>
>Terra is only 7 jumps from Gasshida (at J2) the Vilani Sector <BR>
>Capitol. Why didn't the Terrans get the crap kicked out of <BR>
>them?  They managed to hold off the ZS for 8 years with a <BR>
>relatively low tech (comparatively) and low tonnage fleet and <BR>
>somehow won concessions at the end. How have other GM's out <BR>
>there dealt with this issue.<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani had less tonnage committed to fighting the Terrans in<BR>
that sector than the Terrans could bring to bear, because the<BR>
Vilani were fighting someone else who was perceived to be more<BR>
of a threat than the Terrans.  That someone else was probably<BR>
the Greys, who had been developing the humans of Terra into<BR>
carriers of the Plague of Duskir, which was the Greys' secret<BR>
weapon against their Vilani masters.  Yes, the Plague of Duskir<BR>
is the Black Oil.  <BR>
<BR>
Later, the Greys are wiped out by AIDS, which they got from<BR>
participating with their Terran collaborators on experiments<BR>
with human subjects.  <BR>
<BR>
AIDS was a Hiver manipulation, intended to be carried in humans<BR>
and transmitted to the Greys during surgical procedures.  The<BR>
Greys would not expect that humans would carry any disease that<BR>
could affect them, and were not as careful with surgical<BR>
sanitation and quarantine procedures as they should have been. <BR>
Also, the very long dormant period kept them from realizing the<BR>
source until it was too late.  <BR>
<BR>
The Hivers' goal was just to keep the Greys from becoming a<BR>
dominant power in that region of space, but AIDS proved to be<BR>
far deadlier than expected, and the Greys became extinct long<BR>
before the Ziru Sirka had fallen to the Terrans.  <BR>
<BR>
The Terrans, sometimes working with the Vilani, developed cures<BR>
for AIDS and the Plague of Duskir/Black Oil during the<BR>
Interstellar Wars.  <BR>
<BR>
Surviving Greys have appeared in the Solomani Sphere from time<BR>
to time.  They were typically crews of long-range missions. <BR>
Solomani policy has been to kill them on sight ("Citizens: This<BR>
species is a known danger to humaniti.  It must be destroyed.").<BR>
 Imperial response has varied.  The last sighting of a Grey was<BR>
in about -300.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
"You saw the chicken cross the road with your own eyes! How many<BR>
more chickens will have to cross the road before you will<BR>
believe that a shadow government within our own government is<BR>
behind a massive conspiracy to move all of the chickens across<BR>
the road?"  FBI Special Agent Fox Mulder, quoted on the internet<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:25:27 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: RAFM Traveller: TNE Starship miniatures<BR>
<BR>
I'd appreciate the Stableford clone item name. You mean you actually have<BR>
rack displays of starship miniatures in your FLGS? I have to mail order or<BR>
internet order which stinks because you can't always see the product first.<BR>
<BR>
Although, when purchasing RAFM, I can leverage the $US/$CND ratio to my<BR>
advantage. $-D<BR>
<BR>
I'll be putting up photos of my modified Prowler which I use IMTU for a<BR>
military scoutship. The big honkin' engines just scream high acceleration.<BR>
It is one of my favoritss.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn E. Myers <BR>
Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson wrote...<BR>
>   There's one ship from the Silent Death line (IIRC) that <BR>
> looks a bit like<BR>
> the "Interstellar Queen" (?) from Stablefords (?) novels. <BR>
> Needless to say<BR>
> I heaved the packaging, but I'll try and check the next time <BR>
> I'm in front<BR>
> of the rack of product. Scales to about 6-700 Dt compared to <BR>
> RAFM stuff.<BR>
> <BR>
> >I actually think the Full Thrust miniatures look more <BR>
> Trav-esqe. But I'm<BR>
> <BR>
>   $$$! :(<BR>
> <BR>
>         Steven Hudson<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:33:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
<BR>
>According to  The TNE Regency Sourcebook p38 states that Regina<BR>
<BR>
>is both the capital of the Regina Subsector and the Spinward <BR>
>Marches...I think it is also stated in CT's The Traveller <BR>
>Adventure, but I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
No, in MegaTraveller Mora/Mora is the sector capital -- and even<BR>
at the end of Arrival Vengeance.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:27:10 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Walkthroughs :  ADDRESS<BR>
<BR>
Here's the address from Andrew's earlier mail:<BR>
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/RPG/traveller/TravDoomIndex.asp<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Carl Roger<BR>
> Nilsen<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:15 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >> On the subject of walkthroughs - I have created some Doom WADs based on<BR>
> >> Traveller deckplans.  This thread prompted me to post them (the mostly<BR>
> >> finished and non-corrupted ones, anyway) to my web site.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >These are very cool -- at least the screenshots are. Since I<BR>
> haven't seen a<BR>
> >copy of Doom in about 5-6 years, I wasn't actually able to walk through<BR>
> >them.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> What was the address? I still have Doom lying around, but I think<BR>
> I might have missed the url this message refers to.<BR>
><BR>
> Carl Roger Nilsen<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:02:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
<BR>
>From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
>Subject: Gal@ngo fo fa t@re<BR>
>Gal@ngo   fo  fa  t@re<BR>
>Galanglic for far tradersLesson 1- --------<BR>
>Hello, anyone feel creative?<BR>
>I'm looking for what your Galanglic phrases look like...<BR>
<BR>
Rob, I hope you'll collect what you find and post them for<BR>
everyone's use.<BR>
<BR>
Here are some that come to mind:<BR>
<BR>
soph<BR>
Contraction of sophont, usually used to refer to the speaker's<BR>
audience; similar to modern American English "guys" or "fellas".<BR>
 Usage:  "Well, sophs, you won't believe what the chief engineer<BR>
wants us to do with this reactor core."<BR>
<BR>
bopser<BR>
Derivation unknown.  Colloquial greeting between friends or<BR>
total strangers, similar to modern American English "buddy;"<BR>
connotation is rough.  Usage:  "Hey, bopser, got a light?"<BR>
<BR>
get it?<BR>
get it ____ get it<BR>
"Do you understand?" or "Notice this."  Intensifier used after<BR>
or around words of special importance.  Usage:  "Well, sophs,<BR>
we've heard what the chief engineer wants, but now the get it<BR>
medical officer get it has a checklist for that reactor core."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:17:18 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: primary productivity in vacuum<BR>
<BR>
Just a couple more possibilities for "plants" living in vacuum:<BR>
<BR>
An organism could form prisms, perhaps by excreting Si disolved from an<BR>
asteroid, to refract appropriate wavelengths to photosynthetic pigments<BR>
without dangerous radiation.  I can picture an organism that burrows into<BR>
asteroids, disolving rock and laying down a protective layer above.<BR>
Openings in the protective layer have prisms that direct usable light into<BR>
the photosynthetic tissues.  Eventually, the asteroid has been entirely<BR>
digested and has become a shell around a living core.  The organism then<BR>
metamorphoses into many, many spores before breaking up the asteroid and<BR>
spreading itself around.<BR>
<BR>
Photovoltaic cells a la "Cymbeline Chips" could provide energy for<BR>
metabolic processes.  Free-floating cigar-shaped organisms have a hole on<BR>
one end and a spoon-like organ out the other.  The "spoon" is a<BR>
photovoltaic cell oriented towards the nearest star.  A magnetic field<BR>
collects ions from surrounding space and moves them into one of the holes.<BR>
Atom by atom, the space cigar accumulates mass, sorts it, and builds<BR>
tissues.  The vast majority will be hydrogen, which may be stored for<BR>
thrust.  Tiny micropores allow lateral thrust for stearing.  The entire<BR>
organism is about 10 cm (4") long, and is made up of one complex cell<BR>
inside a shell composed of heavier atoms collected over millenia.  The cell<BR>
eventually splits itself lengthwise, each half taking half the photovoltaic<BR>
cell and half the shell.<BR>
<BR>
On the surface of a comet, a single front sprouts from a root imbedded in<BR>
the ice.  The root is small, perhaps 5 mm in diameter with numerous thin<BR>
rootlets, but on the 10 cm long stem a 3 m diameter (1 mm thick) frond<BR>
faces the sun.  On the sun side, the frond is hard, dense, black, and flat.<BR>
 On the other side, cooling veins project 1-10 m.  The organism has highly<BR>
efficient thermocouples in the frond that generate electricity from the<BR>
temperature gradient across the frond.  Nutrients are mined from the<BR>
cometary ice, and the weak current is used to build biological molecules.<BR>
Spores are produced and ejected by natural springs that grow under them.<BR>
<BR>
I know that I am stretching things here, so don't call out the Marines, but<BR>
any constructive comments are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:52:01 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: waste and real waste<BR>
<BR>
At 14:07 -0500 23/2/00, "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <BR>
<swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:<BR>
>Some of it can be incinerated and/or heavily compacted before burial.  Too<BR>
>bad about the fuel recycling, though.  The UK plant gets 80-90% yield from<BR>
>the reprocessing, I hear.<BR>
<BR>
>95% IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Low level (ie paper waste) includes rubbish from hospital <BR>
departments, university labs, schools etc, the bulk of which is <BR>
inactive. This is now placed in 200 litre drums and supercompacted. <BR>
The resulting waste pucks are placed in containers at the purpose <BR>
built repository at Drigg in Cumbria. This is safer than the average <BR>
landfill site.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:23:17 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:54 -0500 24/2/00,  "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:<BR>
> > On the subject of walkthroughs - I have created some Doom WADs based on<BR>
> > Traveller deckplans.  This thread prompted me to post them (the mostly<BR>
> > finished and non-corrupted ones, anyway) to my web site.<BR>
><BR>
>These are very cool -- at least the screenshots are. Since I haven't seen a<BR>
>copy of Doom in about 5-6 years, I wasn't actually able to walk through<BR>
>them.<BR>
<BR>
Can someone repost the URL - I may dig out my copy of Doom...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 20:25:44 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Nukes - yes please<BR>
<BR>
Hear the click as the button is pressed...<BR>
<BR>
RANT WARNING.<BR>
<BR>
At 18:33 -0500 23/2/00,  "Hughes, Michael" <BR>
<Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au> wrote:<BR>
>Boo. And hey as for power itself, there has never been a problem with a<BR>
>major melt down or anything (cough Chernobol cough Major increase in cancers<BR>
>for thousands of miles in path of wind patterns cough radioactively in the<BR>
>food chain cough).<BR>
<BR>
The correct term is contamination... radiation is different.<BR>
<BR>
The Chernobyl design was known as a flawed design.<BR>
<BR>
The IAEA recommended modifications to make it safe well before the accident.<BR>
<BR>
The modifications were rejected by the Soviet Union on the basis that <BR>
it was a western attempt to undermine their technological base. Thank <BR>
you cold war.<BR>
<BR>
The accident was the result of an experiment being performed breaking <BR>
all the safety rules in place, and over-riding safety features. The <BR>
lack of understanding resulted in decomposition of the steam in the <BR>
coolant/moderation stream. The resulting explosion blew the 1000 Te <BR>
containment lid off the reactor and smashed the ancillary systems. <BR>
The rest is history.<BR>
<BR>
I notice that the environmental groups don't make a big fuss about <BR>
the state of the sarcophagus around the failed RBMK reactor which is <BR>
in a poor state and liable to fall down leading to a massive release <BR>
of contaminated dust with possible worse implications than before. I <BR>
notice that the western powers sit back and argue the toss over who <BR>
should pay for such an upgrade. Like Nero, like global warming and <BR>
other pollution they are fiddling while Rome burns.<BR>
<BR>
Instead they concentrate upon the well regulated power plants and <BR>
processes which are minimal risk. Having worked in the Chemical <BR>
Industry and the Nuclear Industry I felt significantly safer at <BR>
nuclear facilities than chemical plants.<BR>
<BR>
>Boo. Most of them are illl informed about what they are protesting about<BR>
<BR>
Remember the operators and designers have to live with this material <BR>
day to day; protestors don't, and in my experience only a few <BR>
protestors have any real understanding of the issues, technology and <BR>
processes involved. Instead they believe the ignorance and rantings <BR>
of mass media journalists with no understanding of the technology <BR>
involved.<BR>
<BR>
I find it amusing of the hypocrisy of some states which ban nuclear <BR>
power, yet happily export uranium ore.<BR>
<BR>
Nuclear power can be engineered safely. And is.<BR>
<BR>
>!?!?!?!?!?! That's just CRAZY. And how about those stupid environmental<BR>
>impact statements - just why the hell can't they determine the effects of a<BR>
>proposed industrial site over the next 100 or so years in just 6 weeks -<BR>
>that's not efficient at all. I could do it in a day.<BR>
<BR>
  I know when I worked in the industry months were spent developing <BR>
life time costs, decommissioning plans, long term environmental <BR>
impact plans for each new job.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Ob Trav; Is there an organized environmental group in 3I like those sad<BR>
>Geenpeace losers?<BR>
<BR>
Liars, not losers. They serve a good purpose when they alert the <BR>
public to risks. They let themselves down with their lies and focus <BR>
on stunt causes, not real causes. They don't life in a real world <BR>
where compromise could achieve so much more, much like our political <BR>
masters bow to large industries and pay lip service to environmental <BR>
issues. A lot of people are misguided because they believe that <BR>
Greenpeace and other extremist environmental groups never lie, but <BR>
business and government do.<BR>
<BR>
I've seen enough examples to believe neither, and especially not <BR>
Greenpeace specifically (Brent Spar, Ravenglass Sand).<BR>
<BR>
Dom <ranting><BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:37:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Bloo" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
<BR>
I had written:<BR>
>>  The Blue Book, whose complete name is<BR>
>> The Blue Book: A Uniform System of Citation, is one of the<BR>
>> most useful tools provided to our profession.  Without it, we<BR>
<BR>
You replied:<BR>
>So if I don't use small capital letters in the citation for <BR>
>something or other, it ruins your day?  <BR>
<BR>
No, to the contrary, it makes _my_ day -- but it makes you look<BR>
worse before the court to which we are both presenting briefs. <BR>
It may not be a major factor, certainly not dispositive, but the<BR>
more points in our favor the more likely we are to win.  <BR>
<BR>
>I'm against arcane and irrelevant citation methodology.<BR>
<BR>
I, on the other hand, am for it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I had also written:<BR>
>> Think of this:  the Blue Book allows us to spot writers who<BR>
do<BR>
>> not use proper citation form instantly.  That fact tells us<BR>
>> immediately that the writer may be one of more of the <BR>
>> following: sloppy; untrained; not a lawyer; not a law review <BR>
You replied:<BR>
>And don't forget "too damn busy to make it Blue Book perfect."<BR>
>Civil law, maybe its easier because you can usually see things <BR>
>coming. But in the prosecution offices I have worked in, from <BR>
>Texas District Attorneys, to Boston US Attorney Task Force, <BR>
>there are other more pressing concerns.  <BR>
<BR>
That's quite correct.  I've always practiced on the civil, not<BR>
criminal side.  Of course, the more one used correct form, the<BR>
more one gets used to using it and the easier and quicker it is.<BR>
<BR>
I had written:<BR>
>>  Now a sloppy citation to my mind suggests sloppy reasoning, <BR>
You replied:<BR>
>I often find that geniuses are sloppy.  Though not all slops <BR>
>are geniuses. <BR>
<BR>
I agree with both statements, but note that the conservative<BR>
middle-aged judge reading the brief is probably not going to<BR>
give the sloppy brief a presumption of genius-level analysis --<BR>
to the contrary.  Citation form is about presentation, not the<BR>
substance.  Presentation influences the perception of the<BR>
substance, for better or worse.  I'm always happy if my<BR>
opponent's presentation is worse than mine.<BR>
<BR>
You wrote:<BR>
>Ob. Trav.:  Lawyers in the 3I?  We don't have much canon on the<BR>
<BR>
>practice of Imperial Law.  Most people seem to favor using the <BR>
>nobililty here to some degree, especially for judges. <BR>
>(Personally, I prefer to ennoble those who become judges, with <BR>
>a non-heriditary rank title, than drawing judges from the<BR>
>landed gentry/peers).  Will there be an Imperial Bar? Will <BR>
>lawyers/barristers/solicitors/advocates have to wearrobes and <BR>
>wigs?<BR>
<BR>
As I've said many times before, the Imperium will be a<BR>
hodge-podge of various and sometimes competing jurisdictions and<BR>
local rules and procedures -- a lawyers' paradise to that<BR>
extent.  <BR>
<BR>
Although the Imperial Courts will be fairly uniform, access to<BR>
them will be very limited.  Imperial Judges will be nobles,<BR>
whether they start as nobles or get titles when appointed to the<BR>
bench.  There will be an Imperial Bar Association, consisting of<BR>
all lawyers entitled to practice before the Imperial Courts. <BR>
There will also be a great many other bar assocations and<BR>
societies at all levels.  Anyone appearing in the Imperial<BR>
Courts must be properly attired.  What is "proper attire"<BR>
depends on the local rules.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1966<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 25 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1967<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
The only good lawyer is a...(was re: my first post to the TML)<BR>
Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
Re Lawyers and Judges in the 3I<BR>
RE: Altitude Sickness<BR>
Terra and the Grand Empire of Starts : Why war was intetable<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
re: Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: Terra and the Grand Empire of Starts : Why war was intetable<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1965<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
Re : space ecosystems/primary productivity in vacuum<BR>
Re: light sails<BR>
Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1965<BR>
Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
Movie Review:  "Pitch Black" (no spoilers)<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:53:18 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: The only good lawyer is a...(was re: my first post to the TML)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>Anyone appearing in the Imperial Courts must be properly attired.  What is <BR>
>"proper attire" depends on the local rules.  <BR>
<BR>
One of the benefits of being a member of the military, or perhaps even<BR>
a member of the Scouts or other uniformed organizations: as pointed<BR>
out by the writers of the _Castle Falkenstein_ rpg, a uniform is proper<BR>
attire for nearly any occasion.<BR>
<BR>
And some are pretty darn impressive, too...of course, many of them<BR>
(especially the "formal" versions) are as or less comfortable than a<BR>
rental tuxedo.<BR>
<BR>
One thing...there will be levels of Imperial authority that are completely<BR>
above the laws of member states. Being a member of these levels, or<BR>
acting under their authority, should make this "hodgepodge" of local<BR>
legal systems irrelevant, at least as long as the Imperium is watching.<BR>
That might crimp some of the "Lawyer's Paradise", since any Lawyer<BR>
stretching the edges of his world's legal system's bailiwick knows he may <BR>
find himself and his client slapped down *hard* without recourse.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:01:58 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: my first post to the TML<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
> From: "Bloo" <BR>
>> Will there be an Imperial Bar?<BR>
>IMHO, not as such.  However, according to Azhanti High <BR>
>Lightning, there is an Imperial Wine Cellar.  <BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller Universe, The Imperial Bar is a franchise chain<BR>
of bars located in high ports throughout the Imperium.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:59:38 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Lawyers and Judges in the 3I<BR>
<BR>
>Ob. Trav.:  Lawyers in the 3I?  We don't have much canon<BR>
>on the practice of Imperial Law.  Most people seem to favor<BR>
>using the nobililty here to some degree, especially for judges.<BR>
>(Personally, I prefer to ennoble those who become judges,<BR>
>with a non-heriditary rank title, than drawing judges from the<BR>
>landed gentry/peers).  Will there be an Imperial Bar?<BR>
>Will lawyers/barristers/solicitors/advocates have to wear<BR>
>robes and wigs?<BR>
><BR>
>bloo<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, only imperial crimes are tried before the nobility. However, imperial<BR>
citizens have right of appeal to their nobles. The job comes with the<BR>
title; so with "Baron Yori" comes the duty to be the final appellate court<BR>
on Yori.<BR>
<BR>
In the Imperial Courts, full evening dress is customary for all concerned;<BR>
ie The 56th C equivalent to Tuxedoes. Style is as important as legal points<BR>
and emotional impact.<BR>
<BR>
There is an "Imperial Bar" - it's the Knightly Ordo Barrister. One can be a<BR>
"Squire" below soc 11; It just means you pay full dues and don't get to<BR>
vote outside your local chapter, and can't hold chapter offices. Anything<BR>
which would disenfranchise a noble will get one thrown out of the OB. BTW,<BR>
the test to join is Formidable, Legal & Edu, 1hr time increment, safe,<BR>
fateful. If time taken exceeds 18 hours, you have failed anyway,<BR>
regaurdless of the skill roll. The test may be retaken no more often than<BR>
once per any consecutive period of 183 days.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:36:10 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Altitude Sickness<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE writes:<BR>
>There's a good article about altitude sickness on the ESPN Web site:<BR>
>http://espn.go.com/trainingroom/s/injury/index.html<BR>
>ObTrav:  Problems associated with travel to worlds with atmospheres<BR>
>thinner than one's home world; shifts in pressure and/or gravity aboard<BR>
>ships in Jump space, to allow passengers and crew to acclimate to the<BR>
>destination world.<BR>
<BR>
	The site mentioned is pretty good, though it (understandably)<BR>
	glosses over the technical details of altitude sickness.  The<BR>
	part that most people don't know about is that our breathing<BR>
	is primarily controlled by the amount of CO2 in our blood, not<BR>
	the amount of O2.  As we climb to high altitudes, the<BR>
	concentration of gases in the atmosphere remain the same, but<BR>
	because of the lower air pressure the partial pressure of O2<BR>
	(pO2) and CO2 (pCO2) are much lower.  The lower pCO2 doesn't<BR>
	bother us, as the pCO2 in the blood remains higher and CO2<BR>
	diffuses from blood to air (a minor reduction in breathing<BR>
	rate will keep us from loosing too much CO2).  Unfortunately,<BR>
	the low pO2 in the air greatly reduces the amount of O2 that<BR>
	diffuses into the blood.  As the concentration of O2 in the<BR>
	blood drops substantially, "backup" systems kick in to<BR>
	tell the brain to increase breathing.  This allows the O2<BR>
	concentration in the blood to climb again, but it also drives<BR>
	the CO2 concentration down, resulting in blood alkilosis.<BR>
	This makes you sick, but at least you have enough oxygen.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:45:44 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Terra and the Grand Empire of Starts : Why war was intetable<BR>
<BR>
A discussion on why the Interstellar war started, from a Terran Perspective:<BR>
<BR>
With the growing power of the UN, due mainly to the fact it controlled Jump<BR>
Drives, the United States felt that a "Grand Adventure" not unlike the Moon<BR>
landings of the mid 20th century would be a great propaganda coup, allowing to<BR>
reinvigerate its immage as a world power. Thus the Barnard Mission was<BR>
concieved, a manned trip using Jump drive to leave the solar system and explore<BR>
a new system. So, after the chest thumping of the lead up to the mission (the<BR>
supplying of the supply caches in deep space to allow refueling there and back,<BR>
and the actual launch), to have the mission slink back without so much as a peep<BR>
from the US government raise the interest of the world media. It was soon<BR>
apparent however, why such action was taken, when the UN announced that the US<BR>
had infact initiated first contact with a race called the Vilani , and this race<BR>
appears to be Homo Sapian Sapian or silimlar.<BR>
<BR>
The UN imedietly orgainised a second mission, also to Barnard, in order to<BR>
communicate with the Vilani. Aboard was the cream of linguists , diplomats,<BR>
economists and intelegence analysists available worldwide to learn more, and<BR>
possably negotiate. At the same time , a crash navel program was implimented by<BR>
many of the nations of Terra in order ensure that Earth could withstand a<BR>
possable Vilani attack.<BR>
<BR>
The report back from the second mission was dishartening. Firstly, that the<BR>
Vilani laid claim to most of the planets within easy reach of Terra (including<BR>
the Centari systems). The UN was distressed abourt this, as it was hevily<BR>
commited to possable extra-solar colonies to relieve the population strains on<BR>
Terra (In fact. it licenced the J drive to barbard at a massive discount, to see<BR>
if Jump could be used for interstellar travel, one of the reasons the US was<BR>
able to commit massive resources on the project).<BR>
<BR>
Secondly, and more damming in the eyes of the Terrans, was that Imperial<BR>
Beaurux's controlled all of the trade within the empire. Ever since first<BR>
contact was announce, many nations and corperations saw contact as an opotunity<BR>
to expand ecocnomicly into a new market. What more, it was obvious that some<BR>
terran tech was in fact far superior to equivelent Vilani tech. The Vilani<BR>
activley prevented Terran trade, by actively discriminating with it, by imposing<BR>
prohibative tarrifs and barring outright for "saftey and licence" issues.<BR>
<BR>
It was obvious that the Vilani would not alter this position, but the UN made<BR>
continued attempts to change polacy. The fundimental error on the UN's part that<BR>
all contact was made with the Sector Governer (correct name?) , not realising<BR>
that the Vilani had a chain of command leading all the way back to Vland, and<BR>
that the rules of operations for these governers where tightly restricted by<BR>
tradition, personal prestige and actual edicts from the centeral governmant of<BR>
beauruxs. They also failed to realise that no governor would make such<BR>
concessions to a "Minor Race" who did not create Jump itself, despite repeated<BR>
documented proof that Terran Jump drives are not Vilani in origin/<BR>
<BR>
During this time, there was a mad rush by many nations on Terra to set up<BR>
colnies. The UN actively supported these efforts, again discounting the licence<BR>
for the J Drives. It was felt by the UN and these nations, that by grabbing<BR>
planets immedietly (especially low populated ones), they could keep them by fait<BR>
acomplie. While some politicians actively supported taking worlds by force, the<BR>
general concensus was that the Vilani had enough plaents for itself, and it was<BR>
only fair for Terra to get some itself.<BR>
<BR>
Many of these colonies where marginal, but some did begin to return dividends<BR>
just before the breakout of war. This was mainly due to massive Terran<BR>
automation in mining and manufactering.  It was pointed out to a subsector<BR>
governer, that the Terrans could concievably out produce the Vilani in the<BR>
subsector, even though the Vilani had a century head start.<BR>
<BR>
<<<To insert the actual trigger for war and why it started>>><BR>
<BR>
Feedback please.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:54:37 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher writes:<BR>
>Perhaps one thing: Perhaps the higher presure could be a problem<BR>
>for the VL's (vaccum lifeforms). Just as high pressure in the<BR>
>deep sea is a problem for us today. (Or is this a<BR>
>misunderstanding of the evolutionary processes you described?)<BR>
<BR>
	There may be mechanical problems associated with a rapid<BR>
	change in pressure (getting crushed/exploding), but I am<BR>
	more interested in the physiological problems.  Divers<BR>
	can get into trouble with high pressure driving up the<BR>
	partial pressure of gases in their lungs.  When you are<BR>
	under 40 m of H2O, you experience 5x the air pressure at<BR>
	sea level.  This means that the partial pressure of O2 is<BR>
	5x what it is on the surface: breathing air at -40 m is<BR>
	like breathing pure O2 at the surface.  This causes too<BR>
	much O2 to diffuse into your blood, with toxic effects.<BR>
	N2 also disolves at high levels and may cause nitrogen<BR>
	narcosis (and "the bends" if the diver rises too quickly).<BR>
	Since Vacuum Life (VL) does not routinely exchange gases<BR>
	with their surroundings, and in fact would tend to be air-<BR>
	tight, I would not expect that this would be a problem<BR>
	for them.  They might be crushed, however, especially if<BR>
	they use gas pressure for rigidty (probably H2, which<BR>
	happens to be flammable in the presence of O2).<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Their spaceships (if they built any, we are still on a<BR>
>Traveller mailing list) would be much more efficient than those<BR>
>of other, planet-bound races. If they had a small empire, they<BR>
>would be a formidable "enemy race". If they were Imperials,<BR>
>every starship commander would prefer to have a few of them as<BR>
>his crewmembers.<BR>
<BR>
	I would expect them to be very slow-moving, but they<BR>
	would need a lot less life-support!  Mixing air-breathers<BR>
	and VL in the same crew would tend to be inefficient, as<BR>
	the ship would have to remain equiped for the air-breathers.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:56:18 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
I think that many of the space critters thought of here would have one<BR>
very dangerous characteristic - in the presence of concentrated resources,<BR>
they would grow and reproduce at phenomenal rates.<BR>
<BR>
Say, when one of these spores thunks on the almost pure metal hull<BR>
of a starship. A critter that almost sleeps for a millenium would probably<BR>
grow so fast on the hull that you could see it moving.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:10:48 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
At 11:50 PM -0800 2/23/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>And in any case, from what I've read it probably took under a million<BR>
>years to go from a CO2/N2 atmosphere to an O2/N2 atmosphere, even if<BR>
>the O2 levels were lower than what we have now.<BR>
<BR>
Most of what I've heard indicates that oxygen levels became<BR>
"significant" about 2 billion years ago (about 1/2 way through<BR>
the planets history).  I've heard disputes to this, but they<BR>
seem to be minority opinions.  I don't know how fast the transition<BR>
was, but a million years seems very fast.<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:18:44 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the Grand Empire of Starts : Why war was intetable<BR>
<BR>
From prevously:<BR>
<BR>
> With the growing power of the UN, due mainly to the fact it controlled<BR>
Jump<BR>
> Drives, the United States felt that a "Grand Adventure" not unlike the<BR>
Moon<BR>
> landings of the mid 20th century would be a great propaganda coup,<BR>
allowing to<BR>
> reinvigerate its immage as a world power.<BR>
<BR>
Reinvigorating? We don't need any reinvigotating! (More serious comments<BR>
begin below.)<BR>
<BR>
>It was soon<BR>
> apparent however, why such action was taken, when the UN announced that<BR>
the US<BR>
> had infact initiated first contact with a race called the Vilani , and<BR>
this race<BR>
> appears to be Homo Sapian Sapian or silimlar.<BR>
<BR>
Are you saying that the mission was undertaken because the U.S. already knew<BR>
about the Vilani presence, and that was the real motivation for the mission?<BR>
Like in S:AAB where some people knew about the presence of the Chigs, but<BR>
continued to colonize anyway? You can never have too many deep conspiracies<BR>
lurking beneath the surface in a good game.<BR>
<BR>
>The UN was distressed abourt this, as it was hevily<BR>
> commited to possable extra-solar colonies to relieve the population<BR>
strains on<BR>
> Terra<BR>
<BR>
I have a hard time believing that a significant fraction of the population<BR>
could be moved interstellar. If you have 10 billion people, moving even 1<BR>
billion of them away is a major undertaking, and doesn't change things that<BR>
much.<BR>
<BR>
>(In fact. it licenced the J drive to barbard at a massive discount,<BR>
<BR>
An interesting point (licensing). When Jump was discovered on Earth, who<BR>
controlled the rights to it? Did someone become incredibly rich off this?<BR>
<BR>
> Many of these colonies where marginal, but some did begin to return<BR>
dividends<BR>
> just before the breakout of war.<BR>
<BR>
Due to the rather high costs of interstellar travel, you have to make lots<BR>
of money off of these colonies to make a profit. What types of things were<BR>
manufactured or mined on these colonies to make the ROI possible? You need a<BR>
resource which is incredibly rare on Earth, but which happens to be<BR>
plentiful somewhere else. What are the candidates for this? Maybe some sort<BR>
of biological products which yield new useful drugs? But advanced TLs must<BR>
make biological sciences more advanced also. I have a hard time justifying<BR>
this, particularly in the early days, when spaceflight is very expensive.<BR>
For example, I think that the total costs to NASA for one Shuttle mission<BR>
today is about $500 million.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:06:28 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > So, why can't you simply raise the power output?  At least with all<BR>
> > conventional power plants, one which produces 10x as much power has<BR>
> > a mass considerably lower than 10x as great.  <BR>
> <BR>
> That depends.  There are usually multiple scaling laws present in a<BR>
> power plant.  The one which will cripple any attempt at building huge<BR>
> high-performance power plants is that any power plant needs cooling,<BR>
> and for radiative cooling 10x as much power will have a mass<BR>
> considerably _greater_ than 10x as high. <BR>
<BR>
Isn't the exhaust going to be the primary cooling system for any <BR>
fusion rockets?  I know that this is true for fission-powered NERVA <BR>
designs, and since the hydrogen being fused is then going out the <BR>
back, I'm not sure that much additional cooling will be needed.  <BR>
Then again, I don't know that much about fusion rocket designs. <BR>
I'd imagine you would circulate the liquid Hyd around the reactor for <BR>
initial cooling and then rely upon the heat radiated with the exhaust <BR>
to take care of all or most of the rest of your cooling needs.  Any I <BR>
missing something?<BR>
<BR>
Of course reactionless high power usage propulsion units like <BR>
thrusters will be very different, and any realistic Traveller ship would <BR>
need large radiator fins or something similar.   <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:04:35 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1965<BR>
<BR>
Leonard said:<BR>
<BR>
<< Oh yeah, if you can find a copy of "The Making of 2001" one of the<BR>
 color plates is a clear closeup of the "zero-g toilet" instructions.<BR>
 Just the thing to reproduce and hand to your players at an appropriate<BR>
 moment...  >><BR>
<BR>
How close are they to the "below the waterline toilet" instructions on a sub?<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:20:55 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets<BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> Isn't the exhaust going to be the primary cooling system for any <BR>
> fusion rockets?  I know that this is true for fission-powered NERVA <BR>
> designs, and since the hydrogen being fused is then going out the <BR>
> back, I'm not sure that much additional cooling will be needed.  <BR>
<BR>
You'll need additional cooling depending on the amount of heat leakage from<BR>
the drives.  At the temperature of a fusion plasma that will necessarily be<BR>
quite high.<BR>
<BR>
> Then again, I don't know that much about fusion rocket designs. <BR>
> I'd imagine you would circulate the liquid Hyd around the reactor for <BR>
> initial cooling and then rely upon the heat radiated with the exhaust <BR>
> to take care of all or most of the rest of your cooling needs.  Any I <BR>
> missing something?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  Basically, heat doesn't work that way.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 17:23:08 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 12 Proposal Questions<BR>
<BR>
I'm way back on digests, so this point may have been made....<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >According to "The Spinward Marches Campaign" the Imperial Sector Capital<BR>
> >is Mora.<BR>
><BR>
> It could be that Norris moved the capital to Regina after the<BR>
> Fifth Frontier War.<BR>
><BR>
> Personally, I always thought that whilst Regina and Efate might be good<BR>
> places from which to fight a war, the place to prepare for the next<BR>
> war is back on those few Pop A/TL F worlds that actually represent pretty<BR>
> much the entire Domain of Deneb economy.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, one interesting comment in "Spinward Marches Campaign" was<BR>
that Jewell subsector was administered from Regina.  How that jibes with<BR>
Jewell being subsector capital may be complicated.  One possibility is<BR>
that that's only because Jewell was cut off by the Coalition siege during<BR>
the 5FW.  Another possibility is that the arrangement was made so that<BR>
civilian control of the defense of the border rested in one local noble's<BR>
hands for better coordination -- the Duke of Regina.  There's other ideas<BR>
and possibilities that could be good play fodder -- for instance, what if<BR>
the Duke of Jewell is a kid....<BR>
<BR>
The latter interpretations make Norris a very important duke as dukes go,<BR>
but not sector duke (that being the Duchess of Mora)...and now he's the<BR>
archduke and his former superiors report to him....<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:36:28 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : space ecosystems/primary productivity in vacuum<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote :-<BR>
> Just for reference, a typical human has difficulty holding<BR>
> breath for more than 1 minute, and it is a rare human<BR>
> indeed who can hold it for more than 3 minutes.<BR>
The average would be closer to 2 minutes. Breath hold divers push the<BR>
envelope at nearly ten minutes. The physiology is fascinating, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> Aquatic mammals, of course, can hold their breath for much longer,<BR>
> but rely on replentishing their stores regularly and<BR>
> restricting blood flow to many systems.<BR>
Their tissue oxygen stores (myoglobin in muscle) are much larger than<BR>
those of terrestrial ones (the primary store in both cases is the<BR>
lungs). Muscle tissues of marine mammals also have a much greater<BR>
density of mitochondria.<BR>
<BR>
The gas crystals are interesting. Well done.<BR>
<BR>
> An organism could form prisms,<BR>
<snip><BR>
> Openings in the protective layer have prisms that direct usable light into<BR>
> the photosynthetic tissues.<BR>
These 'wave guides' sound like the ommatidia of insect compound eyes,<BR>
and would probably be the primary size limiter of the organism.<BR>
<BR>
> A magnetic field<BR>
> collects ions from surrounding space and moves them into one of the holes.<BR>
> Atom by atom, the space cigar accumulates mass, sorts it, and builds<BR>
> tissues.  The vast majority will be hydrogen, which may be stored for<BR>
> thrust.  Tiny micropores allow lateral thrust for stearing.<BR>
Extremely long-lived ; would probably do better in close proximity to<BR>
some massive body where there's more matter around to collect. The<BR>
Io-Jupiter flux tube could be an ideal location, for example.<BR>
<BR>
>  The entire organism is about 10 cm (4") long, and is made up of one complex cell<BR>
> inside a shell composed of heavier atoms collected over millenia.<BR>
Bacteria sized organisms (and colonies thereof) are much more likely,<BR>
although nummulites got up to a couple of centimetres in diameter,<BR>
didn't they?<BR>
<BR>
> On the surface of a comet, a single front sprouts from a root imbedded in<BR>
> the ice.<BR>
<snip interesting description><BR>
I posted something similar to this when Charles Collin asked about<BR>
'vacuum flowers' last year.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:42:25 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: light sails<BR>
<BR>
>Covered in the Award winning GDW publication Fire, Fusion & Steel for TNE.<BR>
><BR>
>Mitch "Ted7" Schwartz wrote up some in system racers and rules for such races.<BR>
><BR>
>Last I heard, BITS was going to do *something* with his work.<BR>
<BR>
I sent some GURPS vehicles to Loren for JTAS (along with rules for<BR>
conducting races), and some GT starship modules to Chris for GT: Starships.<BR>
<BR>
Don't know whether either has been acepted yet...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:49:40 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re : GT Bestiary Output Format: Comments Sought (long)<BR>
<BR>
>I think it looks fine as it is. However, if you're feeling ambitious you<BR>
>could base the output on a template file that people could edit to suit<BR>
>themselves (within reason). This would also deal with the "PD/DR 0/0"<BR>
>vs. "PD 0, DR 0" issue.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>This assumes a fairly sophisticated template format, allowing for<BR>
>capitalisation and plurals to be chosen. You probably wouldn't want to<BR>
>go that far!<BR>
<BR>
Yup, I wouldn't. Not for a program that will probably sell for $10, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:07:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1965<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard said:<BR>
><BR>
> << Oh yeah, if you can find a copy of "The Making of 2001" one of the<BR>
>  color plates is a clear closeup of the "zero-g toilet" instructions.<BR>
>  Just the thing to reproduce and hand to your players at an appropriate<BR>
>  moment...  >><BR>
><BR>
> How close are they to the "below the waterline toilet" instructions on a sub?<BR>
<BR>
No idea.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:56:44 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
Cybernaut wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> There was only one entry for THUDDD 11.  Apparently, no one else wanted to<BR>
> do a non-GURPS design for a Modular Cutter.  If anyone else has or wants to<BR>
> do a non-GURPS design for this THUDDD, I could reopen the submissions.  If<BR>
> not, I am face with a dilemma.  Do I put it up for voting and commentary?<BR>
> Do I simply declare that one design the winner?  Do I cancel THUDDD 11 for<BR>
> lack of interest?  Or do I move THUDDD 12 into it's place as though there<BR>
> never was a Modular Cutter design for THUDDD 11?  Please advise me.<BR>
<BR>
For THUDDD 11, I've seen one person (Jens Rydholm) express an interest<BR>
in submitting a design.  My suggestion, since there is at least one<BR>
person interested besides the original entrant, would be to begin THUDDD<BR>
12, let that run through submission and voting, and then reopen THUDDD<BR>
"11-A."  That also buys time for discussions for a topic for THUDDD 13.<BR>
<BR>
I've already posted the THUDDD 12 final draft proposal to the TML, so<BR>
it's ready to go whenever you put it up on your site.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I have a suggestion about formatting THUDDD entries:<BR>
<BR>
Simply have each entrant send you a .txt file of his/her/its design. <BR>
When you post the designs to the THUDDD page, you just provide a link to<BR>
the submitted text file.  That'll save you a lot of time and effort (the<BR>
contestants will be solely responsible for how good their formatting<BR>
looks), while we contestants won't have to spend time rewriting files in<BR>
HTML to a specific format, nor will we have to spend time filling out an<BR>
on-line form (as in THUDDD 10).  This method will also prevent any<BR>
formatting hassles for GT designs (which differ in many respects from<BR>
T4).<BR>
<BR>
Just my Cr 0.02....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 22:47:48 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Movie Review:  "Pitch Black" (no spoilers)<BR>
<BR>
Saw "Pitch Black" this afternoon before work.  Pretty good movie, although<BR>
it took me a while to come to that conclusion.<BR>
<BR>
Watched the movie to the end and said "Hmmm, not bad.  Middle of the road.<BR>
I'd give it a 3 out of 5."<BR>
<BR>
Went to work but we were slow and I spent a lot of time thinking.  Started<BR>
to think about the movie.  Started to think about all the scenes this movie<BR>
copied from previous scary sci-fi movies.  You know what?  I couldn't<BR>
recall many at all.<BR>
<BR>
Now *this* surprised me.  The more I thought about it the more it impressed<BR>
me.  This movie tried very hard to be original (which is becoming harder<BR>
and harder to do these days), but this effort didn't show up on screen.<BR>
IOW, you don't notice how original this movie is until *after* you've seen<BR>
it.  Sometimes the movie would come close, only to pull back and take you<BR>
in a different direction.<BR>
<BR>
Now the science isn't "all there" but the writers were also careful not to<BR>
spew too much technobabble so that the brainiacs out there didn't have much<BR>
ammo to put the movie down.  The same questions that were asked after<BR>
watching the original "Alien" are asked of this movie-- What type of<BR>
propulsion system are they using?  How efficient is a star-spanning culture<BR>
that must resort to cryotubes during interstellar voyages?  Is alien life<BR>
around every corner or is it unique?<BR>
<BR>
The aliens spend most of their time in the dark, which helps in the<BR>
suspense department.  Gore is kept to a minimum, except where it acts to<BR>
scare you instead of gross you out.  This movie was more about characters,<BR>
and how situations can change them.  The actors play their characters<BR>
perfectly.  Yes the greedy antiquates dealer dies in the movie (does that<BR>
really constitute a "spoiler"), but not in the stereotypical mindset you'd<BR>
expect (ie: screaming and whining, with the audience cheering the aliens<BR>
on).  And the aliens don't all act as you might expect either :)<BR>
<BR>
The photography style was-- to say the least-- different.  Lots of jerky<BR>
hand-held camera shots and quick cuts.  The outdoors shots were all<BR>
overexposed to emphasize the three suns in the star system the story takes<BR>
place in.  The aliens' "special sight" is nicely handled, as is the<BR>
"special sight" of one of the main characters.<BR>
<BR>
The sound was *amazing*, and gives a new meaning to "scary isn't what you<BR>
see, it's what you DON'T see (and what you hear in the back right corner of<BR>
the movie theatre)".  Sound effects are subliminal... and *powerful*.<BR>
<BR>
Let's not forget the CGI.  While the creature effects were sometimes not up<BR>
to par when viewed under certain lighting conditions (what do you expect,<BR>
my brother does film-quality CGI for a living) but the con-creature CGI was<BR>
nicely done.  It was the big, BIG shots that impressed me the most, not the<BR>
close-ups.<BR>
<BR>
Was this movie like Alien?  No.  I'd much rather be stuck on board the<BR>
Nostromo.  Was this movie like Aliens?  No.  I'd rather deal with a hundred<BR>
"Aliens" than a million of these buggers.<BR>
<BR>
Now I think I'll give it a 3.5 out of 5-- pushing towards 4 out of 5 due to<BR>
the fact that I found it "refreshingly unique".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Time wounds all heels...<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:32:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Won't matter. Unless they've got ridiculous amounts of armor on the<BR>
>> ship, the radiation dosages received will render them unconcious<BR>
>> quickly. And they'll die hours to days later.<BR>
><BR>
> Hey, that's only in the vicinity of 300 million rads in exposed surfaces.  <BR>
> More to the point, any noticeable level of armor will drop that immediately <BR>
> down to about a million rads by stopping all the X-rays.  From there on <BR>
> you're worried about penetrating<BR>
>  radiation, which basically requires around 20/density cm of generic matter <BR>
> to stop 90%.  15 cm of steel will pull it down to an acceptable<BR>
> 1 rad.<BR>
><BR>
> Anything which is hardened enough for long-term space habitation won't be <BR>
> significantly affected by the radiation.<BR>
<BR>
Except that I suspect that most ships wll deal with flares by being<BR>
able to adopt an orientation that gives them "hadow shielding" (say<BR>
from all the gear in engineering) rather than speend money on shielding<BR>
that thick on the entire hull. <BR>
<BR>
*Military* vessels may see the tradeoffs differently.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 16:22:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 23:57 23.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
>>Basicly "hard radiation" is *too* energetic. Sort of like trying to run<BR>
>>your car engine on TNT. <BR>
><BR>
> I see. But wouldn't a lifeforms develop strategies to lessen the level of<BR>
> energy before absorbing, enough time provided? (perhaps roughly comparable<BR>
> to a straying(exp?) prisma for light?<BR>
<BR>
That doesn't affect the energy, it just "sorts" by energy. <BR>
<BR>
The *only* way to "down shift" the energy of a photon (other than<BR>
relativistic velocity and unreal gravity fields) is to have it absorbed<BR>
and re-emitted at a lower wqavelength.<BR>
<BR>
But UV radiation is already using the highest energy levels electrons<BR>
can attain. For gamma and x-rays, the quantum transitions involved are<BR>
*nuclear* (ie stuff happening to or inside the nucleus). This means<BR>
that you *can't* tap it to drive *chemical* reactions, as those involve<BR>
the shell electrons, not the nucleus. <BR>
<BR>
>>It's possible to absorb a photon, and then re-emit one of a lower<BR>
>>energy. But even that only allows certain sorts of "steps". Stepping<BR>
>>hard radiation down to usable wavelengths requires things that just<BR>
>>plain won't *fit* in a cell.<BR>
><BR>
> So don't use a cell. What about larger, "died matter" structures in the<BR>
> lifeform, like crab shells or hair?<BR>
<BR>
They'd have to be able to absorb a significant fraction of the hard<BR>
radiation (not at all easy to do). Then they'd need to re-emit it at<BR>
usable wavelengths. <BR>
<BR>
Aside from a few fluoresecent compounds (which don't work well with<BR>
high energies), just about everything re-emits the photons as *heat*,<BR>
which has the *opposite* problem. It's not energetic *enough* to drive<BR>
cellular chemical reactions.<BR>
<BR>
Basiclly, the "cell" would require far to much "inert matter" for it to<BR>
be *practical*. I could see such a thing being designed, but not<BR>
evolving. Just consider the problems when a "spore" has to be the size<BR>
of a baseball or bigger, just to be able to function, and most of that<BR>
mass is just "dead weight. The "cell" is normal sized. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1967<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1968</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 25 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1968<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems (long)<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Galanglic for Far Traders on the web<BR>
Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Nukes - yes please<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
Magnitudes...<BR>
SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1967<BR>
Re: light sails<BR>
Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
Re: Terra and the Grand Empire of Starts : Why war was intetable<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 15:49:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>         You are on the right track: you need to start with primary<BR>
>         productivity (plants).  If we assume that these start out<BR>
>         similar to Terran plants and continue to evolve adaptations<BR>
>         to the thining atmosphere, increasing radiation, etc., we<BR>
>         might end up with Gas Crystals (named by the belters that<BR>
>         discovered them): each is a photosynthetic organism with a<BR>
>         size between a billiard ball and a softball, inside a<BR>
>         hemispherical structure the size of a beach ball.  The<BR>
>         "beach ball" is actually a shell made up of mineral crystal<BR>
>         with a thin layer of living cells behind which are attached<BR>
>         to the body by the ~0.1 mm thick filaments.  The body<BR>
>         itself is made up of a protective layer, photosynthetic<BR>
>         tissue, storage organs, and a reproductive system.  Thin<BR>
>         roots penetrate into the substrate (soil, rock, asteroid,<BR>
>         or better yet a comet)<BR>
<BR>
I expect that the plants will go for icy and chronditic bodies, simply<BR>
because stony bodies don't have the required carbon, nitrogen, etc.<BR>
Chondrites are low in oxygen though. So perhaps we'd get spores adapted<BR>
to the bodies form when a chondrite and a rocky body collide and<BR>
"stick". This would provide all required nutrients, but require the<BR>
plants to have "root" systems.<BR>
<BR>
I figure that eventually you'd get some real (if slow) motility as some<BR>
plants benefited from root contractions pulling loose bits of rock or<BR>
chon closer to the main body (and reducing the amount of root needed).<BR>
<BR>
Thgis would likely evolve on the (theoretical) "gravel bank" type<BR>
asteroids. These are basicly the result of collisions that shatter the<BR>
bodies involved, but don't throw te pieces great distance. The pieces<BR>
slowly re-assemble under their mutual gravity. The end result is<BR>
basicly a pile of rocks and gravel just barely held together under<BR>
their miniscule mutual gravity.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously this is where shifting rocks around is the easiest. :-)<BR>
<BR>
While it's tempting to think of them evolving to do stuff like grab a<BR>
chunk of chondrite and then drift until they find a bit of stony<BR>
material, I have *real* trouble seeing this as a viable option given<BR>
the drift times required (ie the advantage takes so long to pay off it<BR>
couldn't have evolved yet).<BR>
<BR>
More likely are the evolution of various light concentrating/reflecting<BR>
techniques (lenses and mirrors) that aid in gathering the scarce sunlight.<BR>
<BR>
"Animal" life would be limited to critters that "graze on the plants" ,<BR>
and I don't see those getting all that far. Each body is just too<BR>
*small* and too *isolated* for mutations to be common or to spread. <BR>
<BR>
The payoff from moving between bodies might be high, but the costs are<BR>
so much higher I don't see animals evolving that way. More likely, they<BR>
(and plants) will squirt out "spores" that drift an (mostly) land<BR>
elsewhere on the same body while others drift until the find another<BR>
body. <BR>
<BR>
If you want "large" animals and plants and *active* movement thru<BR>
space, I think you'll have to settle for some sort of *designed*<BR>
organisms, gone wild. Say, biological "mining" equipment designed to<BR>
harvest stuff in belts and still around billions of years after their<BR>
creators are gone. <BR>
<BR>
Thankfully, biological processing of nickel-iron asteroids is likely to<BR>
be impractical. So ships are (mostly) safe. But stony, icy and<BR>
chondritic bodies will be targets. I see the "miners" grabbing chunks<BR>
of chondritic or icy material ("fuel" source), and then "hunting" for<BR>
stony bodies to reduce to metals and more miners. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:28:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> - Balkanisation is good.  There is no possible united Earth government in<BR>
> the forseeable future that (a) wouldn't suck in reality, and (b) is more<BR>
> fun in the game than having lots of rival Earth nations.<BR>
><BR>
> - However, in the real world, some of these Earth nations are _lots_ more<BR>
> powerful than others.  We need to offset this somehow, or else deal with<BR>
> the US and EU annexing the galaxy....  That could be fun - kind of like<BR>
> Pournelle's CoDominium - but it's not quite what I'm looking for.<BR>
><BR>
> - One possible way of doing this would be by international treaties.  The<BR>
> idea is that no nation can claim territory off Earth, and that<BR>
> internationally recognised bodies exist to vaguely coordinate scientific<BR>
> research on other worlds.  (And these treaties are ultimately enforced by<BR>
> the fact that Earth nations are still fundamentally Earth-based, and need<BR>
> to live here.)<BR>
<BR>
I think another method deserves consideration. <BR>
<BR>
Treaties get set up allowing various ethnic & political groups to<BR>
establish soveriegnty over planets of their own. This could start as<BR>
the settling of a long standing civil war by offerring a planet to the<BR>
"losers". <BR>
<BR>
Or maybe things in (say) Nortern Ireland *literally* blew up and the<BR>
disgusted governments of the rest of the world decided to make a final<BR>
end by resettling the survivors on planets at opposite ends of explored<BR>
space.<BR>
<BR>
Either bears a bit of resemblance to how Liberia was founded.<BR>
<BR>
This leads to *lots* of diversity as every "oppressed" group starts<BR>
saving for their own colony. Imagine planets settled by Neo-Nazis. By<BR>
various "cult" groups. By "survivalists". Etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
And even some not so nutso groups. I can see "New Deseret" settled by<BR>
the Mormon Church. A planet (if they can afford one that's livable with<BR>
low tech) settled by Amish, Mennonites and the like (I think there's at<BR>
least one other group with compatible beliefs). <BR>
<BR>
BTW, this gives a good explanation for at least *one* planet that's<BR>
*deliberately* low tech. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:45:40 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Galanglic for Far Traders on the web<BR>
<BR>
I've put what I've collected and spewed so far onto <BR>
the web at<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/eaglestone/Galanglic.html<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 21:14:12 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
> Can someone repost the URL - I may dig out my copy of Doom...<BR>
<BR>
What, were me and Jesse the only two that caught these the first time<BR>
around? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rossmack.com/ab/RPG/traveller/TravDoomIndex.asp<BR>
<BR>
I wondered why no one had commented on them ...<BR>
<BR>
Ciao,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
yikes@evansville.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:09:29 +1100<BR>
From: "David Healey" <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: Nukes - yes please<BR>
<BR>
On 24 Feb 2000, Leonard said :<BR>
<BR>
<<Snippage about nuclear/non-nuclear waste & guff>><BR>
<BR>
<Leonard><BR>
As "nuclear waste" it had to be relocated because it was near a river.<BR>
Nevermind that it was about as radioactive as granite...<BR>
</Leonard><BR>
<BR>
Depending on the age of yer granite, it can still be quite hot, relatively speaking.  Take a look at a thin section of the zircons found in granites and you'll find lots of littlle decay tracks in them.  Some basalts are worse, but they're generally much, much younger.<BR>
<BR>
Still, as a rule, you'll find volcanic and plutonic rocks fairly safe places to be, providing they're not too fresh.<BR>
<BR>
<Michael Hughes><BR>
> Boo.<BR>
><BR>
> Ob Trav; Is there an organized environmental group in 3I like those sad<BR>
> Geenpeace losers? Do they go around to developing planets (pre-stellar-=<BR>
) to<BR>
> hassle corporations/governments that don't have effective environmental<BR>
> controls? Do they encourage people to question what investments their<BR>
> pension funds are making?<BR>
</Michael><BR>
<BR>
<Leonard><BR>
The mere existence of colonies on vacuum worlds, world with<BR>
unbreathable atmospheres, and worlds with alien ecologies, plus<BR>
*millenia* of observing the environment impact of various activities<BR>
means that they will *know* what works and what doesn't. Among other<BR>
things, they'll know what the long term *costs* of various things are.<BR>
</Leonard><BR>
<BR>
Just like the millenia of people living on the land here on Terra have taught us to be environmentally friendly and concious of ecosystem we exist in ?  People in the 3I are going to be just as wasteful as we are in our consumer-oriented societies.  There's still going to be rabid Green groups, and there's still going to be hugely wasteful societies, and there's still going to be people plenty of people occupying the middle ground who don't want to give up too many of their luxuries for the sake of where they live, but are prepared to make some sacrifices for appearance' sake.<BR>
<BR>
<Leonard><BR>
And that they'll have a lot of folks with the attitude that damaging<BR>
things needlessly is intolerable. Face it, if *you* came from a world<BR>
where you had to *pay* for air, and dumping the wrong sort of trash<BR>
into a disposal slot was good for a hefty fine (because it could screw<BR>
up recycling and damage the air, water or food production) wouldn't you<BR>
be a bit upset with anybody who didn't bother to *check* what the<BR>
outputs from their mine/factory/city might do to the environment?=20<BR>
</Leonard><BR>
<BR>
And the reverse ?  If you came from a world where dumping the waste products of industry meant finding a handy hole in the ground ?  There'll be bucketloads of people, as there are now, who don't give a damn about what happens to where they live.<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             !<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             !<BR>
                                                                       <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
       <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:37:43 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> FF&S2 has alternate technologies to the standard Trav stuff?<BR>
<BR>
True. They even include Bussard Ramscoops and such Slower-Than-Light<BR>
long range travel methods, rotating hulls for generation of gravity,<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
> Are there rules for designing craft with them, or are they just there<BR>
> for "name droppings"?     :)<BR>
<BR>
There are rules.<BR>
<BR>
> I may have to get a copy of FF&S2 or FF&S1.  Which is better<BR>
> (regarding alternate Trav tech and CT/MT convertability)?<BR>
<BR>
As you might now, FF&S2 is probably the most errata-heavy book ever<BR>
published, any category, any place, any time. However, once you chew<BR>
through the errata (which, printed, is about as thick as the book<BR>
itself), the system is very detailed, and not *that* hard to use.<BR>
<BR>
I have no knowledge about FF&S1 or any rulesset conversions. Hopefully<BR>
someone else will answer those questions.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:33:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
>So Terry, where did you get this information?? In actuality, only a<BR>
>handful of states is "Homosexuality" considered a crime. What is<BR>
>unfortunate that bigotry is not condsidered a crime... What you are<BR>
>probably are referinq to is several sex acts such as sodomy, which is a<BR>
>crime regardless who performs it, either hetero or homo.. It is just not<BR>
>usually enforced.<BR>
<BR>
Quite right it is the sexual act which is the crime, not the sexual<BR>
preference of the participants.<BR>
<BR>
>it is not illegal to be a homosexual in the armed services if you<BR>
>abstain from sex..<BR>
<BR>
It is not illegal to be a homosexual in the armed services if you refrain<BR>
from telling anyone that you are a homosexual. It is not necessary to<BR>
perform any specific sexual acts. The disclosure of your preferences under<BR>
the "Don't ask, don't tell" is sufficient to be administratively discharged.<BR>
This has been fought in court with mixed results depending on the<BR>
jurisdiction.<BR>
<BR>
My pointing out of these facts does not in any way reflect one way or the<BR>
other my own opinions on the subject.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 04:31:25 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: "true" fusion rockets?<BR>
<BR>
LB2NOLA@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> OK guys....sorry......hit a few wrong keys and sent a couple of blank<BR>
> mails.....shoot me, I'm a blonde.  :)<BR>
<BR>
Spinal mount accumulator 100% charged, you may fire at will.<BR>
<BR>
*BOOM*<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 05:17:37 +0100<BR>
From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" <ca-nilse@online.no><BR>
Subject: Magnitudes...<BR>
<BR>
I am wondering how to calculate visible magnitude of stars. The only formula I have found so far is finding the absolute magnitude (how luminous it is at 10 pc), which requires the visible magnitude and the distance.<BR>
The formula is this:<BR>
(m is visible magnitude, M is absolute magnitude, and d is distance in parsecs)<BR>
<BR>
M = m + 5 / 5 log d<BR>
<BR>
I need to find out what m is<BR>
<BR>
When I make sectors of space, I get the distance between the stars, the position of stars on the sky and the luminosity.<BR>
I don't remember how to calculate luminosity into absolute magnitude (either), however, and time is short, so could you please give me that formula, anyone? I am really bad with mathematics...<BR>
<BR>
Grateful for any help :)<BR>
<BR>
Carl Roger Nilsen<BR>
PBeM GM<BR>
"Never overlook something that seems to be simple"<BR>
<BR>
P.S. I am working on an extended UWP code, if anyone's interested...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:45:05 +1100<BR>
From: "David Healey" <David.Healey@dcb.defence.gov.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
On 23 Feb 2000, Leonard said :<BR>
<BR>
*ALL* main sequence stars "heat up" as they age.<BR>
<BR>
You've been around long enough to *know* that ?  I just knew you were an Ancient !!!<BR>
<BR>
Dave<BR>
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:33:44 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
> From: Rob Eaglestone <BR>
> Alan showed his true heretical colors by talking about scenarios<BR>
> where Earth would be allowed to develop in the vacuum of a larger<BR>
> interstellar foe.<BR>
> <BR>
> What he's describing (balkanized Earth) seems to resemble <BR>
> Traveller 2300, doesn't it?<BR>
<BR>
Well, to some degree.  I've got Traveller 2300 (not 2300AD!), and I will<BR>
certainly be milking it, but I don't particularly like its future history. <BR>
There are other cool sources around too, like the Cyberpunk Deep Space<BR>
book.  And then there is the question of 2D vs 3D mapping - I haven't<BR>
considered that yet.<BR>
 <BR>
> Well Alan, it sounds like a fruitful alternative; to get the best<BR>
> of both worlds, however, I'd still have the Vilani and Imperium;<BR>
> just kick them out of the Solomani Rim and let Terra do its own<BR>
> thing and grow into an interstellar power for a few centuries<BR>
> before encountering aliens.  Could that work?<BR>
<BR>
Well, it would be "in the future" from where I would be, so it doesn't<BR>
really matter.  Then again, I could use non-human aliens instead, like the<BR>
Kafers from 2300.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, work done on this project could well be folded into an OTU 21C<BR>
setting, based in the Solar System.<BR>
<BR>
> That would give you plenty of nasty Terran internecine warfare<BR>
> and STILL have room left over for the chaos created by the<BR>
> introduction of the Vilani later... I can see it now...<BR>
> <BR>
> 2020  Colony on moon<BR>
> 2030+ Begin colonization of Mars & Belt<BR>
> 2080+ Discovery of jump drive<BR>
> 2100  "Colonies" on Barnard's and Alpha Cent.<BR>
> 2200  Established "colonies" on a few worlds.<BR>
> 2300  "Colonies" have significant presence.<BR>
> <BR>
> And 2300 is when This Heretical Solomani Confederation finds the<BR>
> Vilani; and things are much more hostile from the get go.<BR>
<BR>
I might actually stick the Jump Drive (or other FTL - this is a heresy,<BR>
after all!) in earlier.  That would allow a "nearer Future" feel.<BR>
<BR>
One thing that has occurred to me as I'm sitting here is that there would<BR>
be very little likelihood of the Terran nations as I envisage them allying<BR>
against the Vilani.  Some might actually ally _with_ them - and they might<BR>
have a good argument for doing so.  But then the Vilani might be clumsy<BR>
enough to alienate them.<BR>
<BR>
> As for balancing weak nations against the strong, you could make<BR>
> it a double-edged sword: Terra is "crowded" [ a political term ],<BR>
> and governments are willing to assist groups of people into<BR>
> space... of course, those living in poorer countries would make<BR>
> the most economic sense for de facto deportation.  Let's face it:<BR>
> colonizing a world is almost always nastier than colonizing a <BR>
> continent.<BR>
<BR>
But colonizing a world is expensive, and requires highly specialised<BR>
skills.  Unskilled labour is just a waste of life support.  And if you have<BR>
a genuinely habitable world, you won't be giving away to "Third World<BR>
riff-raff", when you can sell it to "decent Americans", or the equivalent.<BR>
<BR>
> This way, colonies are usually made up of people from the poorer,<BR>
> less powerful nations; as often or not this colony may eventually<BR>
> benefit the parent nation.  Maybe.  Of course it always benefits<BR>
> Terra [ trade agreements, military agreements ... ]<BR>
<BR>
Emphasis on "_eventually_ benefit".  Colonies are likely to be economically<BR>
dependent black holes for money.  Also, what is "Terra"?  No such<BR>
(political) entity exists.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, that is a little harsh.  I actually greatly appreciate your<BR>
comments.  The more feedback I get, the more I can refine my ideas.  As you<BR>
can see, I've actually shifted on the Vilani question.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, I've been intrigued for a while about what kind of response<BR>
Terrans would have to one of its governments launching an unprovoked<BR>
military attack on the Vilani.  It might be worth exploring that a little<BR>
further.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the challenging ideas.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
> From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
> Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
> <BR>
> I have a space combat project which includes some of these idea.  If you<BR>
> ignore the rules and look at the scenarios, timeline, and background<BR>
> information you may find items of interest.<BR>
> <BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~ehenry/dskies.htm<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately this page seems to give me a message saying that "this<BR>
program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down".  Sigh.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 22:08:50 +1100<BR>
From: Darryl Adams <rampart@pnc.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1967<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Are you saying that the mission was undertaken because the U.S. already knew<BR>
> about the Vilani presence, and that was the real motivation for the mission?<BR>
> Like in S:AAB where some people knew about the presence of the Chigs, but<BR>
> continued to colonize anyway? You can never have too many deep conspiracies<BR>
> lurking beneath the surface in a good game.<BR>
<BR>
Actually nothing of the sort. Maybe its just me, but I forsee a period where<BR>
American isolaionism will become deominant again. I saw the US Barnard Mission<BR>
a bit liek James Blishes Ice tower on Juputer, a pointless exercise in proving<BR>
american superiority. Just here the result was not what the Americans expected.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> >The UN was distressed abourt this, as it was hevily<BR>
> > commited to possable extra-solar colonies to relieve the population<BR>
> strains on<BR>
> > Terra<BR>
> <BR>
> I have a hard time believing that a significant fraction of the population<BR>
> could be moved interstellar. If you have 10 billion people, moving even 1<BR>
> billion of them away is a major undertaking, and doesn't change things that<BR>
> much.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I agree. I see this as morew a propoganda mode that a real effort by the UN<BR>
"Look, we are helping to relieve poplulation presures, what is YOUR government<BR>
doing?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >(In fact. it licenced the J drive to barbard at a massive discount,<BR>
> <BR>
> An interesting point (licensing). When Jump was discovered on Earth, who<BR>
> controlled the rights to it? Did someone become incredibly rich off this?<BR>
<BR>
The UN cannonacly was able to meat its WHOLE budget from J Drive licences/<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > Many of these colonies where marginal, but some did begin to return<BR>
> dividends<BR>
> > just before the breakout of war.<BR>
> <BR>
> Due to the rather high costs of interstellar travel, you have to make lots<BR>
> of money off of these colonies to make a profit. What types of things were<BR>
> manufactured or mined on these colonies to make the ROI possible? You need a<BR>
> resource which is incredibly rare on Earth, but which happens to be<BR>
> plentiful somewhere else. What are the candidates for this? Maybe some sort<BR>
> of biological products which yield new useful drugs? But advanced TLs must<BR>
> make biological sciences more advanced also. I have a hard time justifying<BR>
> this, particularly in the early days, when spaceflight is very expensive.<BR>
> For example, I think that the total costs to NASA for one Shuttle mission<BR>
> today is about $500 million.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Quantity is its own quality. If the Terrans produce 100 times more of product<BR>
X, the cost will have to come down. Imagine that the cost of say whitegoods<BR>
became soo cheap , that the main cost was transportation. This kind of economy<BR>
cocould cope with the interstellar war.<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Darryl Adams<BR>
rampart@pnc.com.au (home)<BR>
dadams@start.com.au (web)<BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au (work)<BR>
<BR>
There is an infinite number of ways to stuff up....<BR>
It must be my purpose in life to find them all.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 07:57:36 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Re: light sails<BR>
<BR>
At 02:07 AM 2/25/00 -0500, Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> wrote:<BR>
> >Covered in the Award winning GDW publication Fire, Fusion & Steel for TNE.<BR>
> >Mitch "Ted7" Schwartz wrote up some in system racers and rules for such <BR>
> races.<BR>
> >Last I heard, BITS was going to do *something* with his work.<BR>
>I sent some GURPS vehicles to Loren for JTAS (along with rules for<BR>
>conducting races), and some GT starship modules to Chris for GT: Starships.<BR>
>Don't know whether either has been acepted yet...<BR>
<BR>
Page 67 of FF&S2 lists light sails & and the Terra's Cup sail races.<BR>
This is straight from Mitch's GDW-Beta list post. He's even listed in the <BR>
credits under 'Internet Posts Referenced.'<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.<BR>
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend<BR>
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,<BR>
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY<BR>
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.<BR>
               http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:04:25 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
At 16:22 24.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>>>Basicly "hard radiation" is *too* energetic. Sort of like trying to run<BR>
>>>your car engine on TNT. <BR>
>><BR>
>> I see. But wouldn't a lifeforms develop strategies to lessen the level of<BR>
>> energy before absorbing, enough time provided? (perhaps roughly comparable<BR>
>> to a straying(exp?) prisma for light?<BR>
><BR>
>That doesn't affect the energy, it just "sorts" by energy. <BR>
<BR>
True. Forget what I wrote here. <BR>
:|<BR>
<BR>
>The *only* way to "down shift" the energy of a photon (other than<BR>
>relativistic velocity and unreal gravity fields) is to have it absorbed<BR>
>and re-emitted at a lower wqavelength.<BR>
><BR>
>But UV radiation is already using the highest energy levels electrons<BR>
>can attain. For gamma and x-rays, the quantum transitions involved are<BR>
>*nuclear* (ie stuff happening to or inside the nucleus). This means<BR>
>that you *can't* tap it to drive *chemical* reactions, as those involve<BR>
>the shell electrons, not the nucleus. <BR>
<BR>
Sounds reasonable. So one can probably dismiss the idea of "Gamma ray<BR>
chlorophyll".<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> So don't use a cell. What about larger, "died matter" structures in the<BR>
>> lifeform, like crab shells or hair?<BR>
><BR>
>They'd have to be able to absorb a significant fraction of the hard<BR>
>radiation (not at all easy to do). Then they'd need to re-emit it at<BR>
>usable wavelengths. <BR>
><BR>
>Aside from a few fluoresecent compounds (which don't work well with<BR>
>high energies), just about everything re-emits the photons as *heat*,<BR>
>which has the *opposite* problem. It's not energetic *enough* to drive<BR>
>cellular chemical reactions.<BR>
<BR>
Well, but _this_ is a problem that has already been solved by certain<BR>
bacteria on earth, hasn't it? Now it sounds somehow possible to me again.<BR>
But certainly such a lifeform would require an extremely high "Evolutionary<BR>
Tech level".<BR>
<BR>
>Basiclly, the "cell" would require far to much "inert matter" for it to<BR>
>be *practical*. <BR>
<BR>
Well, given the right circumstances in an asteroid beltor an Oort cloud, if<BR>
it's the only way to survive... But this would lead more and more to rather<BR>
"artificial life", perhaps even literallly just as you state: Genetic<BR>
engeneering.<BR>
<BR>
>I could see such a thing being designed, but not<BR>
>evolving. Just consider the problems when a "spore" has to be the size<BR>
>of a baseball or bigger, just to be able to function, and most of that<BR>
>mass is just "dead weight. The "cell" is normal sized. <BR>
<BR>
I aggree on the general idea, though the size relations are probably<BR>
dependent on metabolic speed, level of radiation, and other variables.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:06:31 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
I caught them the first time around as well but haven't had the time to play<BR>
Doom.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 10:14 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Walkthroughs (was something or other)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Can someone repost the URL - I may dig out my copy of Doom...<BR>
><BR>
> What, were me and Jesse the only two that caught these the first time<BR>
> around? ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.rossmack.com/ab/RPG/traveller/TravDoomIndex.asp<BR>
><BR>
> I wondered why no one had commented on them ...<BR>
><BR>
> Ciao,<BR>
><BR>
> Joseph R. Dietrich<BR>
> yikes@evansville.net<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:58:32 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the Grand Empire of Starts : Why war was intetable<BR>
<BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
> The Vilani<BR>
> activley prevented Terran trade, by actively discriminating with it, <BR>
> by imposing<BR>
> prohibative tarrifs and barring outright for "saftey and licence" issues.<BR>
<BR>
You mean... it was just one big trade war?<BR>
<BR>
Looooo-rennnn!!! Get your lawyer to get George Lucas on the phone! Now!<BR>
<BR>
The Vilani probably did themselves no favours by acting condescending<BR>
towards the Terrans and making racial slurs at every opportunity. The<BR>
Vilani have been the one and only "Major Race" for well on a millenium<BR>
and the Terrans probably didn't like their attitude much.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine the Vilani taking the attitude that Canada & the US took towards <BR>
Chinese immigrants in the 20's and 30's. Complete, utter, downright rude<BR>
racism (not like that polite Southern racism). How long would US (and<BR>
other Terran) citizens take being called "mongrels" by some bunch of idiots<BR>
that didn't even know that we're the real human homeworld?<BR>
<BR>
Man, the propoganda must have been thick, thick, thick.<BR>
Someone pour me a nice refreshing glass of molasses (treacle for you Brits). :)<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:21:14 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
May i send you the zip file offlist?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> ------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>> From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
>> Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I have a space combat project which includes some of these idea.  If you<BR>
>> ignore the rules and look at the scenarios, timeline, and background<BR>
>> information you may find items of interest.<BR>
>> <BR>
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~ehenry/dskies.htm<BR>
><BR>
>Unfortunately this page seems to give me a message saying that "this<BR>
>program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down".  Sigh.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:34:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
I to have an interest in THUDDD 11 and replied directly to Cybernaut.<BR>
<BR>
I will be submitting an entry by the 29th of Feb.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,<BR>
pi+, ta+, <BR>
		as+, va+, dr+, _sa_, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, _hu_ <BR>
			(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1968<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1969</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Friday, February 25 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1969<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: Terra and the Grand Empire<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: Terra and the Grand Empire<BR>
Re: 3I Hardware<BR>
Re: Magnitudes...<BR>
MT Ship Design Questions<BR>
First Contact<BR>
Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
re:  The only good lawyer is a... <BR>
RE: A real world example - OT<BR>
RE: Space ecosystems<BR>
Who owns the moon?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1968<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
RE: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
Re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
competing hit probabilities<BR>
Re: competing hit probabilities<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
Signing off for a while (+ prayer request)<BR>
Oleofelinology and space drives (was: Re: Cat physics)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:50:36 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
I read some source material written by another TML<BR>
gentleman, and he's given me food for thought.<BR>
<BR>
He merges T2300 and the TU by pushing forward the<BR>
Interstellar Wars and pushing the rim of the Ziru Sirka <BR>
back into Diaspora.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps a more amenable system would put the Ziru<BR>
Sirka in the early stages of a Rebellion-like<BR>
setting, where provincial governments are only<BR>
nominally part of the Ziru Sirka -- foreign in all<BR>
but name.  Weak control makes border states and<BR>
pocket empires inevitable, with competing groups<BR>
paying their yearly dues to remain members of the<BR>
Vilani Empire but still going their own way, <BR>
complete with petty infighting and working at <BR>
cross-purposes.  Sure, the central Bureaux are<BR>
organized to a fault, but that doesn't work at<BR>
interstellar distances.  Black markets spring up,<BR>
and crime is rampant; therefore, justice goes out<BR>
the window and retribution piles on retribution.<BR>
<BR>
I mean, the ZS is a virtual powder keg.<BR>
<BR>
Look at it another way: the Solomani Rim is a border<BR>
province of the ZS, run by a barbarian non-Vilani<BR>
group who send tokens of peace to the ZS to keep them<BR>
happy.  The ZS is happy to take their taxes, but frankly<BR>
don't care what happens to them -- they're little better<BR>
than pirates anyway.  Show the flag but who cares if a<BR>
few of them get toasted by rogue states across the border?<BR>
Less work for the ZS to do.  Keeps them busy; the ZS has<BR>
its own problems and ambitions, namely how to become the<BR>
ruler of the core of the Ziru Sirka and get at all that<BR>
wealth and trade.<BR>
<BR>
How do you think the current rulership of the Solomani<BR>
Rim came to power?  You got it: a bloody coup from<BR>
primitive barbarian warships.  Isn't that how it <BR>
happened?  Sure.  They put forth a claim to the government,<BR>
and took over, claimed their loyalty to the Ziru Sirka,<BR>
and paid their taxes.  Life goes on.<BR>
<BR>
So now they whine, like their predecessors did, about some<BR>
barbarian hordes beating them at their own game.  So what?<BR>
When they fall, then these barbarians will assume power<BR>
over their sector and pledge allegiance, and pay more<BR>
taxes of course.  What could possibly be wrong with that?<BR>
Why get involved with a self-correcting system unless<BR>
there's something REALLY wrong?<BR>
<BR>
And thus we have barbarians converted into Ziru Sirkans,<BR>
employing nasty minor races such as Kafers to fight<BR>
their wars for them.  Yes, they are 1st Imperium.  But,<BR>
the 1st Imperium may be too busy with more important<BR>
things to bother with barbarians.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 08:02:59 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the Grand Empire<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Terra and the Grand Empire of Starts : Why war was intetable<BR>
...<BR>
>The Vilani probably did themselves no favours by acting condescending<BR>
>towards the Terrans and making racial slurs at every opportunity. The<BR>
>Vilani have been the one and only "Major Race" for well on a millenium<BR>
>and the Terrans probably didn't like their attitude much.<BR>
<BR>
  They've got superior FTL< and an empire comprising thousands of star<BR>
systems? Hmm, from this portion of the cheap seats, their attitude may<BR>
seem pretty justified :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 10:12:26 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
where does the balkanized Earth fit in?<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I read some source material written by another TML<BR>
>gentleman, and he's given me food for thought.<BR>
><BR>
>He merges T2300 and the TU by pushing forward the<BR>
>Interstellar Wars and pushing the rim of the Ziru Sirka <BR>
>back into Diaspora.<BR>
><BR>
>Perhaps a more amenable system would put the Ziru<BR>
>Sirka in the early stages of a Rebellion-like<BR>
>setting, where provincial governments are only<BR>
>nominally part of the Ziru Sirka -- foreign in all<BR>
>but name.  Weak control makes border states and<BR>
>pocket empires inevitable, with competing groups<BR>
>paying their yearly dues to remain members of the<BR>
>Vilani Empire but still going their own way, <BR>
>complete with petty infighting and working at <BR>
>cross-purposes.  Sure, the central Bureaux are<BR>
>organized to a fault, but that doesn't work at<BR>
>interstellar distances.  Black markets spring up,<BR>
>and crime is rampant; therefore, justice goes out<BR>
>the window and retribution piles on retribution.<BR>
><BR>
>And thus we have barbarians converted into Ziru Sirkans,<BR>
>employing nasty minor races such as Kafers to fight<BR>
>their wars for them.  Yes, they are 1st Imperium.  But,<BR>
>the 1st Imperium may be too busy with more important<BR>
>things to bother with barbarians.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:11:47 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Terra and the Grand Empire<BR>
<BR>
Steve Hudson wrote:<BR>
>They've got superior FTL< and an empire comprising thousands of star <BR>
>systems? Hmm, from this portion of the cheap seats, their attitude may <BR>
>seem pretty justified :> <BR>
<BR>
You must be sitting in seats so cheap that they don't have<BR>
the benefit of hindsight. The ZS *had* superior FTL and an<BR>
empire of thousands of systems. They didn't have either after<BR>
the dust settled.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, once the dust settled a little bit more, neither<BR>
did the Rule of Man. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:24:22 -0500<BR>
From: Eric Freitas <ericfrei@gte.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Hardware<BR>
<BR>
Superconductors, both low temp and high temp varieties.<BR>
<BR>
Large amounts of money are being spent to find out how high temperature<BR>
superconductors work.  There are theories,  but they don't have an answer<BR>
yet.  Of course that hasn't stopped companies from producing superconductors<BR>
in various forms for use in high power radio transmitters, or electric motors.<BR>
<BR>
Likewise, nobody understands (fully) what gravity is or how to modify it, but<BR>
we can use our knowledge of it to navigate to distant worlds.<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 08 Feb 2000, you wrote:<BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I really meant "not understood by the culture as a whole" in some vague and<BR>
> unspecified sense. For example, although the IC fab guys may not understand<BR>
> the ins and outs of IC design, there are people today who do, so someone in<BR>
> my vague and unspecified "culture as a whole" does.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Eric & Diane Freitas<BR>
ericfrei@gte.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:36:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Magnitudes...<BR>
<BR>
Carl Roger Nilsen writes:<BR>
> I am wondering how to calculate visible magnitude of stars. The only<BR>
> formula I have found so far is finding the absolute magnitude (how luminous it is at 10 pc), which requires the visible magnitude and the distance. The formula is this:<BR>
> (m is visible magnitude, M is absolute magnitude, and d is distance in<BR>
> parsecs) <BR>
> <BR>
> M = m + 5 / 5 log d<BR>
> <BR>
> I need to find out what m is<BR>
<BR>
You generally find m by looking in a table of nearby stars.<BR>
> <BR>
> When I make sectors of space, I get the distance between the stars, the<BR>
> position of stars on the sky and the luminosity. I don't remember how to<BR>
> calculate luminosity into absolute magnitude (either), however, and time is short, so could you please give me that formula, anyone? I am really bad with mathematics... <BR>
<BR>
Roughly -2.5 * log(luminosity) + 4.5, though it varies depending on color.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:40:11 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: MT Ship Design Questions<BR>
<BR>
Greetings, all.<BR>
<BR>
About 5 years ago or so, there was one or more TML<BR>
posts which discussed the specs and use of low<BR>
maintenance M-drives as well as high performance<BR>
M-drives/J-drives.<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone happen to have this information? I cringe<BR>
to think of trying to find this in the archives<BR>
(assuming the archives go back that far).<BR>
<BR>
I'd appreciate any help.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 12:39:35 -0500<BR>
From: "James Earl" <jearl@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: First Contact<BR>
<BR>
One campaign idea that I was toying with was a Traveller/Twilight 2000<BR>
crossover game where, instead of the Terrans contacting the Vilani at<BR>
Barnard's Star, the Vilani stumbled upon Terra in the midst of WWIII.<BR>
Acknowledging the difficulties of effecting a conquest of the world<BR>
(considering that practically every adult male and many females were under<BR>
arms), the Vilani provincial governor decided to take a more subtle route,<BR>
and began providing military assistance to one of the belligerents. The PCs<BR>
would start running across high-tech weapons on the battlefield, and meet<BR>
some Vilani "advisors" over the course of the campaign. It would eventually<BR>
develop into a Turtledovian (hehe, new word) "Worldwar"-esque situation,<BR>
where the surviving nations of Terra have to band together as the Vilani<BR>
begin to deploy ground troops. Sooner or later, it would go off-world, with<BR>
the PCs having key roles in capturing Vilani equipment, starships, etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:07:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 3:33 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Warheads<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Ray Wiberg wrote:<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> <<snip>><BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > In fact any varaiation missle info is welcome. One of the things I've<BR>
been<BR>
>> > wondering (taken from my stock of many Traveller questions) is why it<BR>
>> > seems that 3I standrd missles seem to be nuclear x-ray missles.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The standard military missile is the nuke-pumped det-laser, because,<BR>
>> between point defense and nuclear dampers, only a det-laser can get<BR>
>> close enough to a military target to inflict useful damage.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> Why not just stick to laser turrets? Seems more resource sound, though<BR>
> you may not do as much damage.<BR>
><BR>
> Also, many ships (non mili or raider types) don't have screens at all.<BR>
> I just figure different payloads should be available.<BR>
><BR>
> Ray<BR>
As of the TNE era of the game laser turrets and barbettes didn't have enough<BR>
power to cause mission kills on a starship. So Missiles and Bay weapons and<BR>
spinal mounts became the weapon of choice  buy the space combatants. I<BR>
believe that raiders would use laser turrets on there merchantmen to make<BR>
them surrender. Simply because a ship with out sensors or Comm is blind in<BR>
space. and no one really wants to be a flying Dutchman. so it's either cut<BR>
all vectors to 0 or float in space until your found.<BR>
Merchants would cut power and go in tow of the pirate vessel.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 11:49:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  The only good lawyer is a... <BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
>Subject: The only good lawyer is a...(was re: my first post to <BR>
>the TML)<BR>
<BR>
>One thing...there will be levels of Imperial authority that are<BR>
>completely above the laws of member states. Being a member of <BR>
>these levels, or acting under their authority, should make this<BR>
<BR>
>"hodgepodge" of local legal systems irrelevant, at least as <BR>
>long as the Imperium is watching.<BR>
<BR>
The hodgepodge of local legal systems is generally irrelevant<BR>
when the Imperium itself is acting (as opposed to just<BR>
observing), which is rare.  Even then, the Imperium might<BR>
voluntarily subject itself to local procedures for political<BR>
reasons.  <BR>
<BR>
>That might crimp some of the "Lawyer's Paradise", since any <BR>
>Lawyer stretching the edges of his world's legal system's <BR>
>bailiwick knows he may find himself and his client slapped down<BR>
<BR>
>*hard* without recourse.<BR>
<BR>
No, it won't.  The Imperium just doesn't care what happens on<BR>
local worlds unless it threatens Imperial security (remember,<BR>
the Imperium even tolerates member states going to _war_ with<BR>
one another).  Using or abusing local legal systems to the<BR>
advantage of one's clients doesn't implicate Imperial security<BR>
at all (except possibly to strengthen it indirectly by<BR>
perpetuating the status quo).  <BR>
<BR>
Also, bear in mind that a lawyers' paradise just means that<BR>
there is a lot of legal work solving arcane problems that no one<BR>
else can or wants to figure out.  It doesn't imply any abusive<BR>
or improper practices by the lawyers.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:23:48 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: A real world example - OT<BR>
<BR>
> So "the people" are<BR>
> all powerful, as long as they don't do anything.<BR>
<BR>
This is the problem of being omnipotent, and is one of the explanations that<BR>
the religious use for the non-appearance of gods.<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:32:22 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
> I remember an old Space Master(from ICE) companion where they proposed<BR>
> space lifeforms, either genetically created or naturally evolved.<BR>
> They even proposed an intelligent natural space-dweller species living in<BR>
> an asteroid belt.<BR>
><BR>
> Has anyone ever used such things in Trav?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.<BR>
<BR>
I stole the "Acanti" from  the 70's-early 80's Chris Claremont X-Men<BR>
<BR>
Whale-like creatures with natural spaceflight ability, and an interesting<BR>
culture that happened to make them extremely vulnerable to an unscrupulous<BR>
race.<BR>
<BR>
So "out there" that I never needed a handwave to explain their existence,<BR>
the players just took it as one of those "mysteries of space"<BR>
<BR>
I have also used the Hoyle's "Black Cloud" in the past.<BR>
(A greater-than-stellar-sized "cloud" creature that feeds on suns )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:02:52 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
I wandered by the Lunar Embassy web site, <BR>
http://www.lunarembassy.com/ ,<BR>
run by a Mr. Dennis Hope. He's selling extraterrestrial real estate, and<BR>
says he has a legal basis for doing so.<BR>
<BR>
He claims to have filed a claim of ownership to Luna, Venus, Mars,<BR>
and all other bodies in our solar system with the exception of Earth.<BR>
<BR>
According to his web site, the US government and the UN have failed to<BR>
challenge his claim within the legally-specified amount of time, therefore<BR>
they have de facto given his claim legal standing. He was then allowed to<BR>
copyright his claim in the US (or at least in California), which I do not<BR>
understand. He also claims that relevant UN decisions about exploitation<BR>
of space failed to specifically prohibit private citizens from claiming<BR>
ownership, giving him a loophole to work with.<BR>
<BR>
Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
government or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:03:30 +1100<BR>
From: Darryl Adams <rampart@pnc.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1968<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au wrote:<BR>
> > The Vilani<BR>
> > activley prevented Terran trade, by actively discriminating with it, <BR>
> > by imposing<BR>
> > prohibative tarrifs and barring outright for "saftey and licence" issues.<BR>
> <BR>
> You mean... it was just one big trade war?<BR>
> <BR>
> Looooo-rennnn!!! Get your lawyer to get George Lucas on the phone! Now!<BR>
<BR>
There woould bo case. No one wants tto get balmed for THAT one!<BR>
<BR>
In a way, yes. Look at the situation today, were big nations have big trade<BR>
wars over small produce. The US and EU have the Banana war, and notice how <BR>
much all the governments are pushing the WTO EXCEPT where their own <BR>
producers get shafted? In a way, this is more likely a trigger for the war than <BR>
anything else, as the Vilani denying thier market would be like the US turning<BR>
all imports away, ie deneying the biggest market known to the exporters.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> The Vilani probably did themselves no favours by acting condescending<BR>
> towards the Terrans and making racial slurs at every opportunity. The<BR>
> Vilani have been the one and only "Major Race" for well on a millenium<BR>
> and the Terrans probably didn't like their attitude much.<BR>
> <BR>
> Imagine the Vilani taking the attitude that Canada & the US took towards <BR>
> Chinese immigrants in the 20's and 30's. Complete, utter, downright rude<BR>
> racism (not like that polite Southern racism). How long would US (and<BR>
> other Terran) citizens take being called "mongrels" by some bunch of idiots<BR>
> that didn't even know that we're the real human homeworld?<BR>
<BR>
Or the While Australia polacy. Many asians wher highley educated, ,and <BR>
imigration test could be in ANY European language, so if you where asian<BR>
and spoke 12 European Languages, they would keep testing until they found<BR>
the thirteenth. <BR>
<BR>
It would be this active discrimination that would get up everyones noses, <BR>
Including the 3rd world, but especially the 1st world.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Man, the propoganda must have been thick, thick, thick.<BR>
> Someone pour me a nice refreshing glass of molasses (treacle for you Brits). :)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Agreed. Isn't war fun?<BR>
<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Darryl Adams<BR>
rampart@pnc.com.au (home)<BR>
dadams@start.com.au (web)<BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au (work)<BR>
<BR>
There is an infinite number of ways to stuff up....<BR>
It must be my purpose in life to find them all.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 13:17:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
 <BR>
> Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
> government or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
> interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure he'll just be ignored.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, its perfectly possible to copyright a completely false document.<BR>
Copyright just means that you lay claim to the manner in which it was stated.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:25:35 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Nuclear power (was : Dropping waste in space)<BR>
<BR>
> I think I've already said that nuclear plants are mostly safe. I'm<BR>
> arguing about longterm problems of nuclear power/waste management.<BR>
<BR>
Which are ?<BR>
<BR>
You could store all the nuclear waste generated over several centuries<BR>
in a square mile of Nevada desert with a fence around it.<BR>
<BR>
Nevada, because it is geologically stable, with little chance of water table<BR>
leaching or natural disaaters, and is pretty empty.<BR>
<BR>
Worst danger I can think of would be someone trying to steal it to use as a<BR>
poison.<BR>
<BR>
Compared to the toxic waste produced by coal oil power plants or the<BR>
devastation caused by the (far more common than nuclear accidents) collapse<BR>
of dams, add in the ecolgicial damage caused by mining the coal and creating<BR>
the damns in the first place, and any non-emotional assesment of nuclear<BR>
power shows that it it safer, and more eco-friendly than any serious<BR>
alternative other than perhaps Ocean Thermal or SPS<BR>
<BR>
And while solar water heating can be useful, it requires a lot of plumbing<BR>
and maintenance, and a lot of sun to be more han a minor suppplement to<BR>
other systems.<BR>
<BR>
Also, if it was used in the densities required to make it a viable<BR>
alternative (ie, if it was used by many homes ) it would have a significant<BR>
impact on heat surrounding these homes, in the same way that use of<BR>
airconditioning already does.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
A few more nuclear factoids :<BR>
<BR>
There is more radioactive material released into the atmosphere each year by<BR>
coal and gas-fired power plants operating normally than was released by the<BR>
Chernobyl accident.<BR>
<BR>
Other than in the immediate area of the accident, most people exposed to<BR>
Chernobyl's radioactive "cloud" gained more radiation exposure in a few<BR>
weeks of watching television than they did from the accident.<BR>
<BR>
Complaints about raised radioactivity levels in certain Scottish fields<BR>
after Chernobyl missed the fact that the background radiation had never<BR>
before been measure in these fields. Turned out in the end that these fields<BR>
were over a pitchblende deposit, a natural source of radiation, which easily<BR>
accounted for the higher than normal radiation levels in these fields.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:21:29 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
<BR>
I think I've answered part of my own question.<BR>
<BR>
Mr. Hope bases much of his "legal" claim to the solar system on the<BR>
UN treaty of 1967, which prohibited governments from owning the moon,<BR>
but not individuals or corporations.<BR>
<BR>
Since no government can own the Moon, questions of it's ownership<BR>
should be in no government's jurisdiction. Therefore, even though Mr.<BR>
Hope's claim to the Moon's surface was allowed by an official in his local<BR>
county offices in California, any attempt to enforce such a claim will<BR>
be outside the jurisdiction of every court on the planet. The only possible<BR>
court that would rule on it would be a court of the UN, and I don't think <BR>
the UN is bound to follow decisions made by a public servant in a county <BR>
courthouse, even if it is in the USA.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, I think private ownership claims to outer space are going to<BR>
be a matter of owning what you stand on and what you brought with<BR>
you, at least until the various governments on our planet make a decision<BR>
otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
If the US government wants to put Mr. Hope out of business, all they need<BR>
to do is assess him property taxes. He claims the property is worth <BR>
about a penny an acre, so I guess the government could hit him with a<BR>
tax bill in the trillions any time they wanted to. If he claims the US gov't<BR>
doesn't have jurisdiction to tax him, he'll have to agree that they don't<BR>
have jurisdiction to allow him to take ownership in the first place, so either<BR>
way it's a non-issue.<BR>
<BR>
But people keep giving him US$17 or so for a deed to a piece of the moon.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:53:35 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
<BR>
Mr Hope has no hope.<BR>
<BR>
I am not an expert or even a professional but i did study some of these<BR>
issues a decade ago in college.<BR>
<BR>
First off, the rule of international law will prevail over matters<BR>
extra-terrestrial.  International law is decided first by treaties and then<BR>
by custom.  It is unlikely that an international treaty would allow an<BR>
individual ownership of extra-terrestrial territory.  And since we have no<BR>
long standing customary procedure for individual ownership of ET territory,<BR>
one cannot argue he is entitled by custom.  And while International Law has<BR>
no equivalent to the American concept of "stare decisis", i seriously doubt<BR>
the international community will pass treaties allowing individuals and<BR>
corporations to lay claims willy-nilly.<BR>
<BR>
There is a long standing custom to resolve who has the better standing when<BR>
resolving competing claims of territory.  Some of these issues are very<BR>
relevant WRT Antarctica and even made into the space race.<BR>
<BR>
Russians made a small claim to the moon by virtue of crashing stuff into it.<BR>
Americans did the same.  Then there were soft landings which upped the ante<BR>
by having working equipment on the moon.  Americans surged ahead by actually<BR>
landing humans on the moon.  THe followed that with driving on the moon to<BR>
establish a sort of "infrastructure" on the moon.  Finally, there is the<BR>
celebrated ( and carefully filmed ) event of playing golf on the moon to<BR>
show "recreation" or a sense of living on the moon.<BR>
<BR>
All of these activities also occurred on Antarctica.  However, a few years<BR>
ago, a Chilean citizen living in Antarctica actually gave birth there, thus<BR>
laying the most favorable groundwork for Chile to claim a portion of<BR>
Antarctica as its own.<BR>
<BR>
In these examples you'll note that individuals do not lay claim to the<BR>
territory but rather the sovereign government of that individual.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I think I've answered part of my own question.<BR>
><BR>
>Mr. Hope bases much of his "legal" claim to the solar system on the<BR>
>UN treaty of 1967, which prohibited governments from owning the moon,<BR>
>but not individuals or corporations.<BR>
><BR>
>Since no government can own the Moon, questions of it's ownership<BR>
>should be in no government's jurisdiction. Therefore, even though Mr.<BR>
>Hope's claim to the Moon's surface was allowed by an official in his local<BR>
>county offices in California, any attempt to enforce such a claim will<BR>
>be outside the jurisdiction of every court on the planet. The only possible<BR>
>court that would rule on it would be a court of the UN, and I don't think<BR>
>the UN is bound to follow decisions made by a public servant in a county<BR>
>courthouse, even if it is in the USA.<BR>
><BR>
>Therefore, I think private ownership claims to outer space are going to<BR>
>be a matter of owning what you stand on and what you brought with<BR>
>you, at least until the various governments on our planet make a decision<BR>
>otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:18:25 -0600<BR>
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)<BR>
Subject: competing hit probabilities<BR>
<BR>
Hi.  I've come across two competing formula for determining hit<BR>
probabilities in space combat.  which one of the following, if either, is<BR>
correct?<BR>
<BR>
Hit probability = (target surface area) / (pi*(0.5 * target acceleration<BR>
*(range/c)^2)^2)<BR>
<BR>
OR<BR>
<BR>
Hit probability = ( target radius / (2*max acceleration*(range/c)^2+target<BR>
radius))^2<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:28:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: competing hit probabilities<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry writes:<BR>
> Hi.  I've come across two competing formula for determining hit<BR>
> probabilities in space combat.  which one of the following, if either, is<BR>
> correct?<BR>
<BR>
They're mathematically similar, the second one looks like it should have a<BR>
0.5 rather than a 2.  Neither is actually correct unless all fire<BR>
being evaded is from a single distance, because the effectiveness of a <BR>
pseudo-random-walk evasion pattern depends on the step length.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:32:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
At 04:02 PM 2/25/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>He claims to have filed a claim of ownership to Luna, Venus, Mars,<BR>
>and all other bodies in our solar system with the exception of Earth.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall this weirdo demanding the removal of all NASA gear from<BR>
his "property". NASA asked him to provide proof that it was still there,<BR>
preferably by photo.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:17:36 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Signing off for a while (+ prayer request)<BR>
<BR>
One of my kids died this morning at 3:30 of a massive stroke. She was 15.<BR>
<BR>
If you're inclined that way, please remember Fhera Khan in your prayers.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm unsubscribing for a while. I'll be back when things settle down here.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:47:42 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Oleofelinology and space drives (was: Re: Cat physics)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 24 Feb 2000 06:04:38 -0500 (EST), "Cybernaut"<BR>
<cybernaut@netzero.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[Oldies, but goodies, on oleofelinology and its applications to<BR>
space travel, snipped]<BR>
<BR>
A phenomenon apparently related to, but not identical with,<BR>
oleofelinology is evident in the navigation systems of spacecraft<BR>
with oleofeline lift systems. This phenomenon, referred to as a<BR>
lycotoga drive system, is based on the strong affinity held<BR>
between white items of clothing and comestibles based on stewed<BR>
or pureed tomatoes.<BR>
<BR>
It is well known that when consuming foods based on stewed or<BR>
pureed tomatoes, such as tomato soup, marinara sauce, or ketchup,<BR>
it is invariable that any white garments worn by the consumer<BR>
will become stained with the food, regardless of the amount of<BR>
care taken in such consumption. This is because of the affinity<BR>
referred to above, which causes an extremely localized warping of<BR>
space so as to ensure that the white garment and the tomato<BR>
product will come in contact.<BR>
<BR>
The same advanced civilizations that have mastered oleofeline<BR>
lift systems have similarly mastered lycotoga drives. The<BR>
classical arrangement has a large drive chamber with a<BR>
floor-to-ceiling shaft in the center, wrapped with a white<BR>
garment, usually resembling a toga (for ease of unwrapping and<BR>
cleaning in case of drive failure).  Spaced around the perimeter<BR>
of the drive chamber are niches which each contain a<BR>
high-pressure emission nozzle and a vaccuum receptacle.  A<BR>
tomato-based food, usually marinara sauce, is jetted through the<BR>
nozzle into the receptacle.  The speed and force of the jet is<BR>
usually sufficient to prevent the marinara sauce from being<BR>
diverted to the toga in the center of the room; nevertheless, the<BR>
attraction is still there, and the toga attempts to move toward<BR>
the marinara sauce.  However, the wrapping of the toga around the<BR>
drive shaft is designed to prevent easy unwrapping, and so the<BR>
toga exerts force on the drive shaft, which carries the ship<BR>
along with it, toward the marinara sauce - which, being part of<BR>
the ship, is carried along, thus maintaining distance.  To change<BR>
speed, the volume of marinara sauce is adjusted; to change<BR>
direction, the current niche is closed off and a niche in the<BR>
appropriate direction relative to the drive shaft is opened.<BR>
(This, incidentally, also explains the radical changes of<BR>
direction that UFOs have been witnessed as making.)  In rare<BR>
cases, if the drive is not properly maintained (with fresh<BR>
marinara sauce, cleaning the nozzles and toga, et cetera), the<BR>
jet of marinara sauce may not have sufficient velocity to prevent<BR>
contact between the sauce and the toga, and the ship comes to a<BR>
halt at the instant that the marinara sauce stains the toga.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1969<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1970</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/26/00 5:10:44 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 26 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1970<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Signing off for a while (+ prayer request)<BR>
Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
Re: Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
Re: Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
Re: Magnitudes...<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
American Science and Surplus RPG items<BR>
RE: Galanglic for Far Traders on the web<BR>
Re: MT Ship Design Questions<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
Re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
Re: Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
World Builder Handbook??<BR>
re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: " "<BR>
re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
Re: Movie Review:  "Pitch Black" (no spoilers)<BR>
Re: Magnitudes<BR>
E.R.I.C's b-a-a-a-a-a-a-c-k<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:12:45 -0500<BR>
From: "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Signing off for a while (+ prayer request)<BR>
<BR>
I'm sending this to the list since I don't want to crowd Rob's private<BR>
email. I hope he returns soon and sees it.<BR>
<BR>
Rob, knowing how a teacher fells about his/her students you have my deepest<BR>
condolences, it's as painful as loosing one of  your own kids! It's a sign<BR>
of your good nature that you refer to her as "One of my kids". I hope the<BR>
pain diminishes swiftly.<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 5:17 PM<BR>
Subject: Signing off for a while (+ prayer request)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> One of my kids died this morning at 3:30 of a massive stroke. She was 15.<BR>
><BR>
> If you're inclined that way, please remember Fhera Khan in your prayers.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I'm unsubscribing for a while. I'll be back when things settle down here.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:52:18 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
<BR>
The final verdict on the relative coolness of the alien races is in. In<BR>
auctions which just closed on eBay, the CT Alien Modules for the various<BR>
races went for the following prices:<BR>
<BR>
Aslan $12.50<BR>
K'kree $81.11 (!!!)<BR>
Vargr $26.00<BR>
Zhodani $21.50<BR>
Droyne $35.79<BR>
Solomani $26.00<BR>
Hivers $31.00<BR>
Darrians $34.00<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:02:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
<BR>
At 03:52 PM 2/25/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>The final verdict on the relative coolness of the alien races is in. In<BR>
>auctions which just closed on eBay, the CT Alien Modules for the various<BR>
>races went for the following prices:<BR>
<BR>
This is more an indication of the realative avalibility of the Modules. <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 01:43:08 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
<BR>
At 00:52 26.02.00, you wrote:<BR>
>The final verdict on the relative coolness of the alien races is in. In<BR>
>auctions which just closed on eBay, the CT Alien Modules for the various<BR>
>races went for the following prices:<BR>
<BR>
I think, that the rlative rarity of some of the latter titles also plays an <BR>
important part. AFAIK there are quite a lot more AR1s than there are of <BR>
any other AR-book. I always found the Droyne and Zhos books most <BR>
fascinating...<BR>
<BR>
>K'kree $81.11 (!!!)<BR>
<BR>
WOW! Time to dust off my copy and see what i can get... Not on E-Bay, <BR>
though as E-Bay recently started charging for offering items (at least the <BR>
German E-Bay did)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:20:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Magnitudes...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I am wondering how to calculate visible magnitude of stars. The only formula <BR>
> I have found so far is finding the absolute magnitude (how luminous it is at <BR>
> 10 pc), which requires the visible magnitude and the distance.<BR>
> The formula is this:<BR>
> (m is visible magnitude, M is absolute magnitude, and d is distance in <BR>
> parsecs)<BR>
><BR>
> M = m + 5 / 5 log d<BR>
><BR>
> I need to find out what m is<BR>
<BR>
That doesn't look like *any* of the formulas on the "cheat sheet" I<BR>
bought the other day (Powells Technical Bookstore sells these plastic<BR>
laminated quick reference sheets for various fields that are *great*<BR>
for having next to the computer or throwing into your gaming gear)<BR>
<BR>
It has:<BR>
<BR>
m - M = 2.5 * log (L/l)		(M,m = magnitude, L,l = luminosity)_<BR>
<BR>
m - M = 5 * log(d) -5<BR>
<BR>
M = m + 5 + 5 * log(p)     p=1/d (d in parsecs?)<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> When I make sectors of space, I get the distance between the stars, the <BR>
> position of stars on the sky and the luminosity.<BR>
<BR>
> I don't remember how to calculate luminosity into absolute magnitude <BR>
> (either), however, and time is short, so could you please give me that <BR>
> formula, anyone? I am really bad with mathematics...<BR>
<BR>
You need the luminosity *and* magnitude for 1 star. Then you can<BR>
calculate the rest from the first formula I gave above.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:36:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 23 Feb 2000, Leonard said :<BR>
><BR>
> *ALL* main sequence stars "heat up" as they age.<BR>
><BR>
> You've been around long enough to *know* that ?  I just knew you were an <BR>
> Ancient !!!<BR>
<BR>
One of those newcomers? Hardly... but if you ever get a look at the<BR>
original blueprints for the Cosmos, look for my signature in the<BR>
"Approved by:" block.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 19:25:48 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 23 Feb 2000, Leonard said :<BR>
> ><BR>
> > *ALL* main sequence stars "heat up" as they age.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > You've been around long enough to *know* that ?  I just knew you were an<BR>
> > Ancient !!!<BR>
> <BR>
> One of those newcomers? Hardly... but if you ever get a look at the<BR>
> original blueprints for the Cosmos, look for my signature in the<BR>
> "Approved by:" block.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
You make me feel as if I'm but an infant...and I typed up the 4187 to<BR>
promote Christ to PFC (the rank before Corporal, for the non-US Army<BR>
among us).  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:17:47 -0500<BR>
From: "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: American Science and Surplus RPG items<BR>
<BR>
I just got my batch from them today (about 1.5 - 2 weeks after order). All<BR>
of it is TSR and mostly duplicated between the 2 packages I bought. Three of<BR>
the items were Buck Rodgers suppliments named "War against the Han", kind of<BR>
campy, as you'd expect. Anyway the thing that makes this item interesting is<BR>
that it contains a sheet of "cardboard heroes" that are quite usable for<BR>
Traveller. The figures tend toward the '30ish style uniforms (something like<BR>
Dune the movie).<BR>
<BR>
Other items in the lots are Forgotten Suns Ravenloft etc.<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 17:45:38 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Galanglic for Far Traders on the web<BR>
<BR>
Dude, did you like, have WAY too much time on your hands?<BR>
<BR>
Seriously ROFL!!!!  Great job!<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rob<BR>
> Eaglestone<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:46 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Galanglic for Far Traders on the web<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I've put what I've collected and spewed so far onto <BR>
> the web at<BR>
> <BR>
> http://members.home.net/eaglestone/Galanglic.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:04:47 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: MT Ship Design Questions<BR>
<BR>
David,<BR>
<BR>
If you send me all All ALL of the archived TML files, I can find<BR>
it for you in about 15 minutes... with a little perl script.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Greetings, all.<BR>
> <BR>
> About 5 years ago or so, there was one or more TML<BR>
> posts which discussed the specs and use of low<BR>
> maintenance M-drives as well as high performance<BR>
> M-drives/J-drives.<BR>
> <BR>
> Does anyone happen to have this information? I cringe<BR>
> to think of trying to find this in the archives<BR>
> (assuming the archives go back that far).<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd appreciate any help.<BR>
> <BR>
> David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:08:45 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> where does the balkanized Earth fit in?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Errr... umm... oops, I guess I posted to the wrong thread.<BR>
Well, I guess it fits in wherever... mmm, I wasn't really<BR>
thinking about that facet.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose that gives Balkanized Earth time to get its act<BR>
together, which may well include doing the best job of<BR>
uniting, industrializing, and militarizing as possible.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:16:19 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:02:52 -0500, Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I wandered by the Lunar Embassy web site, <BR>
> http://www.lunarembassy.com/ ,<BR>
> run by a Mr. Dennis Hope. He's selling extraterrestrial real estate, and<BR>
> says he has a legal basis for doing so.<BR>
> <BR>
> He claims to have filed a claim of ownership to Luna, Venus, Mars,<BR>
> and all other bodies in our solar system with the exception of Earth.<BR>
<BR>
Did he lay claim to the sun while he was at it?  If he did, what's he<BR>
charging for sunlight this year?  I need to work it into my yearly budget<BR>
before tax time.<BR>
<BR>
> According to his web site, the US government and the UN have failed to<BR>
> challenge his claim within the legally-specified amount of time, therefore<BR>
> they have de facto given his claim legal standing. He was then allowed to<BR>
> copyright his claim in the US (or at least in California), which I do not<BR>
> understand. He also claims that relevant UN decisions about exploitation<BR>
> of space failed to specifically prohibit private citizens from claiming<BR>
> ownership, giving him a loophole to work with.<BR>
<BR>
He may be right on that last point.  "...cannot be claimed by any country<BR>
or be used for military purposes."<BR>
<BR>
If people want to waste money in this way, fine.  A piece of paper is far<BR>
from ownership and you couldn't defend your claim from claim jumpers<BR>
anyway.  However, I do have a problem with this scheme claiming that it is<BR>
"legal" or "legitimate".<BR>
<BR>
> Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
> government or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
> interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
<BR>
Nah.  If he insists that he owns everything, we'll just have to "conquer"<BR>
him militarily.  It won't be pretty, but it's worked before.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Why isn't "palindrome" spelled "palindromeemordnilap"?<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 11:27:09 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
<BR>
> From: Eric Henry<BR>
> First off, the rule of international law will prevail over matters<BR>
> extra-terrestrial.  International law is decided first by treaties and<BR>
then<BR>
> by custom.  It is unlikely that an international treaty would allow an<BR>
> individual ownership of extra-terrestrial territory.  And since we have<BR>
no<BR>
> long standing customary procedure for individual ownership of ET<BR>
territory,<BR>
> one cannot argue he is entitled by custom.  And while International Law<BR>
has<BR>
> no equivalent to the American concept of "stare decisis", i seriously<BR>
doubt<BR>
> the international community will pass treaties allowing individuals and<BR>
> corporations to lay claims willy-nilly.<BR>
> <BR>
> There is a long standing custom to resolve who has the better standing<BR>
when<BR>
> resolving competing claims of territory.  Some of these issues are very<BR>
> relevant WRT Antarctica and even made into the space race.<BR>
<BR>
Antarctica is a good analogy, and I vaguely recall that there are already<BR>
some kind of agreements in place about the moon, as a result of the space<BR>
race.<BR>
<BR>
All of these are serious questions about what the formal status of ET<BR>
settlements would be.  I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't end up being<BR>
settled by legitimizing accomplished facts, once the facts are<BR>
accomplished.<BR>
<BR>
I've thought a little more about using micro-states as flags of convenience<BR>
for settlements.  It's clearly a silly handwave, but there are some<BR>
interesting aspects to it.  I think it could work if the major powers are<BR>
signatories to the treaties, but the micro-states aren't.  Of course, this<BR>
would, in the not-so-long term, result in the treaties being changed, or<BR>
simply collapsing, but there is nothing wrong with that in a future<BR>
history.  It just means that there is a window in which the Trobriand<BR>
Islands is a major interstellar power.... and PC colonial administrators<BR>
have a relatively free hand.  Eventually the US or someone will get snaky<BR>
and land a platoon of Marines, but until then the "research bases" could<BR>
belong to just about anyone with a few trillion dollars to spare.  (Oops! <BR>
OK, a few billion, maybe.)<BR>
<BR>
I'm not particularly confident that there would be many habitable worlds<BR>
around, or that even the "habitable" worlds would be particularly friendly<BR>
to terrestrial life.  If that is the case, then the colonies would tend to<BR>
remain small and infrastructure-heavy.  That is, you wouldn't be able to<BR>
just drop a bunch of dirt-farmers onto a world and expect them to be able<BR>
to survive.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, I think the colonies are going to be dome/tunnel affairs, even on<BR>
relatively friendly worlds.  That's not quite as big a deal as it first<BR>
appears - even now, most human beings are urban dwellers, and this tendency<BR>
is increasing.  Colonies, I suspect, will be towns, or at least villages,<BR>
rather than big slabs of countryside.  Of course they will have their<BR>
agricultural infrastructure too, but this is quite likely to be at least<BR>
partly dependent on life support systems too.<BR>
<BR>
Changing this is of course called terraforming.  We've already discussed it<BR>
recently, and it's not simple, and it probably would take a rather long<BR>
period of time.  But once it is achieved, dirt-farmer colonisation could<BR>
occur, and that's when you might get Amish colonies and the like.<BR>
<BR>
So I think that there are some serious limitations on what kinds of<BR>
colonies can be established in the relatively short term.  Time will fix<BR>
some of them, particularly through the use of terraforming.  And because<BR>
this is a game, we can just simply ignore some or all of them...<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:22:23 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Relative coolness of alien races<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:52:18 -0800, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The final verdict on the relative coolness of the alien races is in. In<BR>
> auctions which just closed on eBay, the CT Alien Modules for the various<BR>
> races went for the following prices:<BR>
> <BR>
> K'kree $81.11 (!!!)<BR>
<BR>
Great googly moogly!!!<BR>
<BR>
Too bad my copy of AM:2 suffered water damage to the back :(<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Why isn't "palindrome" spelled "palindromeemordnilap"?<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:33:04 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: houstonshocky@webtv.net<BR>
Subject: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
<BR>
Hi all. This is my first post to the list (hope this doesn't come thru<BR>
with HTML).<BR>
<BR>
Years ago I had a book entitle "World Builder Handbook" (I think that is<BR>
the title). It had a flowchart detailing how to design a world using<BR>
it's UWP. Such as number of major lakes, number of small villages,<BR>
social quarks and idiosyncrasies.<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody Know where I can get this flowchart? Preferably an online<BR>
source.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:59:27 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry wrote:<BR>
>I seem to recall this weirdo demanding the removal of all NASA gear from<BR>
>his "property". NASA asked him to provide proof that it was still there,<BR>
>preferably by photo.<BR>
<BR>
Either a different weirdo, or he's changed his tune. His web site lauds<BR>
the heroic efforts of NASA astronauts, and makes a point of NASA<BR>
having the right to explore and visit everywhere - it's the owning and<BR>
exploitation he claims to be concerned about.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:31:59 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
>He claims to have filed a claim of ownership to Luna, Venus, Mars,<BR>
>and all other bodies in our solar system with the exception of Earth.<BR>
><BR>
>According to his web site, the US government and the UN have failed to<BR>
>challenge his claim within the legally-specified amount of time, therefore<BR>
>they have de facto given his claim legal standing. He was then allowed to<BR>
>copyright his claim in the US (or at least in California), which I do not<BR>
>understand. He also claims that relevant UN decisions about exploitation<BR>
>of space failed to specifically prohibit private citizens from claiming<BR>
>ownership, giving him a loophole to work with.<BR>
><BR>
>Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
>government or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
>interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
><BR>
>Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
Helped someone track down the answer to that when i worked at the local<BR>
branch of the US National Archives... No. In general, under the few US<BR>
homesteading and mining laws which may apply, he's either got to Live<BR>
there, mine it, or the claim is unsubstantiated... See, in the US, claims<BR>
under the homestead acts require that one live on the property, and be able<BR>
to walk the perimiter in under X time. Under the mining claims laws, things<BR>
are much wierder, but require some proof of improvement and/or working. And<BR>
many claim types are non-transferable until substantiated by improvement<BR>
and utilization. Now, under the homestead acts, he can claim a large chunk<BR>
of a given world by living there for 10 years. Okay, only a few thousand<BR>
acres at most... but still, a chunk. Also under the homestead act, he can't<BR>
sell it until he's lived there 10 years.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know the details of the UN treaties, but I suspect they will take<BR>
the same tack that has been taken towards other actions: any national,<BR>
subject, citizen, or other affiliated being may not do such things that<BR>
ttheir governments are not allowed to.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:00:45 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Eric Henry wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > where does the balkanized Earth fit in?<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Errr... umm... oops, I guess I posted to the wrong thread.<BR>
> Well, I guess it fits in wherever... mmm, I wasn't really<BR>
> thinking about that facet.<BR>
> <BR>
> I suppose that gives Balkanized Earth time to get its act<BR>
> together, which may well include doing the best job of<BR>
> uniting, industrializing, and militarizing as possible.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
<BR>
Lemme amend that.<BR>
<BR>
With the Ziru Sirka's power diluted on the frontier by<BR>
competing regional governments, Terran groups may ally with <BR>
whomever they will; it all comes down to: Who ends up in power?<BR>
<BR>
There're lots of cultural districts all over the Imperium;<BR>
Terrans will add that many more to the mix, and as usual<BR>
they'd be likely to get along only where absolutely<BR>
necessary...<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 06:38:23 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: " "<BR>
<BR>
At 18:31 25.02.00 -0900, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>I don't know the details of the UN treaties, but I suspect they will take<BR>
>the same tack that has been taken towards other actions: any national,<BR>
>subject, citizen, or other affiliated being may not do such things that<BR>
>ttheir governments are not allowed to.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC the UN treaty forbids any exploitation of space and the outer<BR>
planetary bodies by a single nation/government, since space is to be owned<BR>
by all mankind.<BR>
<BR>
BTW: Maybe I'm the only one, but your subject line always arrives blank at<BR>
my mailbox. Is this intentional?<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 06:34:46 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: re: Who owns the Moon?<BR>
<BR>
At 16:21 25.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>If the US government wants to put Mr. Hope out of business, all they need<BR>
>to do is assess him property taxes. He claims the property is worth <BR>
>about a penny an acre, so I guess the government could hit him with a<BR>
>tax bill in the trillions any time they wanted to. If he claims the US gov't<BR>
>doesn't have jurisdiction to tax him, he'll have to agree that they don't<BR>
>have jurisdiction to allow him to take ownership in the first place, so<BR>
either<BR>
>way it's a non-issue.<BR>
><BR>
>But people keep giving him US$17 or so for a deed to a piece of the moon.<BR>
<BR>
But that's for the idea and the "document of ownership" itself, isn't it?<BR>
After all, I wouldn't take this too serious. It's just a cute, inexpensive<BR>
birthday present.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe Mr. Hope has any hope of being it more, but most other people haven't.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 06:31:09 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
At 16:02 25.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>I wandered by the Lunar Embassy web site, <BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
>government <BR>
<BR>
Why the US government? Have I overlooked some news flash?<BR>
<BR>
>or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
>interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
<BR>
Interesting question: What if some European does the same? <BR>
<BR>
Probably those will "own the moon" who first have the ability to exploit<BR>
whatever they find there. And that  will IMHO be corporations, not<BR>
governments or single persons.(If it can be done economically at all.) As<BR>
for current laws, not even _murder_ is forbidden in space, since it is not<BR>
the territory of any nation. The exception are those countries that claim<BR>
their laws to be also for any of its citizens, wherever they be at the time<BR>
of crime. IIRC most countries take a different approach: The laws are<BR>
enforced on its entire territory, what ever happens beyond the borders is<BR>
not the ropblem of the countrie's jurisdictions.<BR>
<BR>
So maybe the first space war will be a corp war?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 14:27:12 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Movie Review:  "Pitch Black" (no spoilers)<BR>
<BR>
Saw the movie it's opening night and loved it.<BR>
The pure fact that it was Charater driven and unique did it for me. You<BR>
really don't see charaters that stay in charater or that are done well. Even<BR>
though the cliche' achetypes where there it didn't feel old or rehashed. The<BR>
quick takes that where in no way like MTVish set a great rocket roller<BR>
coaster ride of a pace.<BR>
I see alot of movie and I love sci, which means everytime a sci fi movie<BR>
comes out I'm there. These are thing you don't see in many of the movies.<BR>
Heck I'm taking votes now that Mission to Mars is like 2001 for this movie<BR>
going era.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:18:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" <ca-nilse@online.no><BR>
Subject: Re: Magnitudes<BR>
<BR>
Fri, 20000225093632 PST, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>Carl Roger Nilsen writes:<BR>
>> I am wondering how to calculate visible magnitude of stars. The only<BR>
>> formula I have found so far is finding the absolute magnitude (how luminous it is at 10 pc), which requires the visible magnitude and the distance. The formula is this:<BR>
>> (m is visible magnitude, M is absolute magnitude, and d is distance in<BR>
>> parsecs) <BR>
>> <BR>
>> M = m + 5 / 5 log d<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I need to find out what m is<BR>
><BR>
>You generally find m by looking in a table of nearby stars.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The problems are really related to cases where there is a situation that greatly differs from what you can derive from the info on nearby stars. For instance, a M2Ia red supergiant in the distance of 1 - 5 parsecs...<BR>
Betelgeuse is unfortunately almost 150 pc away.<BR>
What I really need is a "reversed formula" of the one seen above<BR>
m = (some formula with M and d)<BR>
I'm not really good at converting formulas.<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> When I make sectors of space, I get the distance between the stars, the<BR>
>> position of stars on the sky and the luminosity. I don't remember how to<BR>
>> calculate luminosity into absolute magnitude (either), however, and time is short, so could you please give me that formula, anyone? I am really bad with mathematics... <BR>
><BR>
>Roughly -2.5 * log(luminosity) + 4.5, though it varies depending on color.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. :)<BR>
Is it dependent on primary classification (oh be a fine girl kill me) alone, or is there further variety within the subclassifications as well (Ia, Ib, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII(D) and decimal classifications)?<BR>
In either case, a set of parameters limiting the min/max  values would be nice, or directions to where these could be obtained.<BR>
If anybody could direct me to a source that includes very detailed information about stars, including conversion formulas, accurate and detailed Hertzprung-Russel diagrams, parameters to the above formula or anything else relevant on the web, in a book, or elsewhere, I would be much obliged.<BR>
<BR>
Carl Roger Nilsen<BR>
"Never overlook something that seems to be too complicated"<BR>
"Frosty the Snowman<BR>
Was peeing against the wind<BR>
In a ravenstorm" - Immortal Haiku by Annatar Gorthaur<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:08:57 +1100<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: E.R.I.C's b-a-a-a-a-a-a-c-k<BR>
<BR>
Hey guys,<BR>
<BR>
Dave 'Hyphen' Watson asked me to post the links to E.R.I.C., the write up<BR>
for the scariest piece of robotic hardware since 101's Hiver Bruiser. If the<BR>
below link don't work, go to main page and head for the Traveller<BR>
components. He's also posted MT rules for ENHANCED Ministry of Justice<BR>
agents, which you can get through the second link.<BR>
<BR>
Excellent.<BR>
<BR>
So roll up, roll up and see E.R.I.C. - a very miracle of game mechanics<BR>
(that'll be a dollar).<BR>
<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/rit/eric.htm<BR>
<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1970<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1971</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest    Saturday, February 26 2000    Volume 1999 : Number 1971<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re:waste and real waste<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
Linux software update<BR>
Happy Birthday to me!<BR>
Clarification: (Re: Signing off for a while)<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
The Filk Pages are up!<BR>
CT psionic question<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
Lack of Subject Error<BR>
Re: Signing off for a while (+ prayer request)<BR>
World Builder Handbook<BR>
Re: Happy Birthday to me!<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
Re: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:17:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re:waste and real waste<BR>
<BR>
>>I find it despicable that the anti-nuke types have used tactics that<BR>
 >>actually result in *increased* risks bercause of all the waste piling<BR>
 >>up in places never intended to do more than store stuff until it could<BR>
 >>be shipped for permanent disposal, or for reprocessing.<BR>
 >And I find it unconsionable that the nuclear power industry<BR>
 >foisted large expensive nuclear plants on us without first figuring out<BR>
 >what they were going to do about the radioactive waste. As far as<BR>
 >I can tell the plan was to just dump it any ol' where *untill* the<BR>
 >anti-nukes pointed out the hazzards.<BR>
<BR>
The power companies were mis-informed by the federal government. When they<BR>
were urged by the Atomic Energy Commission to build nuclear power plants<BR>
they were told that the Federal government would take the high level wastes<BR>
off their hands for free. The government's intention, at that time, was to<BR>
reprocess the fuel for weapons use (this was the 1950's.)<BR>
<BR>
It takes decades to build these things and by the 1970's the AEC was the<BR>
Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Weapon production was now the province of the<BR>
Department of Energy. The NRC was much more politically motivated (i.e.<BR>
their major consideration was to ensure that the federal government could<BR>
not be held libel for any nuclear incidents that occurred in the U.S.) Then<BR>
came Three Mile Island and the nuclear power industry in the U.S. took a<BR>
major downturn.<BR>
<BR>
Sometime in the 1970's due to pressure from environmental groups the federal<BR>
government dropped their plans to build a nuclear reprocessing plant and<BR>
started down the "we'll just store this stuff for the next 10,000 years,"<BR>
Meanwhile, spent fuel was building up in short term storage pools at nuclear<BR>
sites. If you have to pay to store or process this stuff, instead of giving<BR>
it away for free, nuclear plants lose their economic benefits (Which is the<BR>
reason power companies built them to begin with.) Cheap fuel from the<BR>
government, no fuel costs per year while they're operating, and then free<BR>
disposal. That made the initial cost, which is very much higher than for a<BR>
coal fired plant, economically viable.<BR>
<BR>
No reply's on the unfairness of the nuclear industry expecting government to<BR>
subsidize them. It happens all the time. The government subsidizes the<BR>
trucking industry by maintaining the roads and bridges. They subsidize<BR>
sports teams by building stadiums and giving tax breaks. They subsidized the<BR>
power utilities by paying for rural electrification (which is why farmers<BR>
out in the boonies have power from the grid rather than having to buy<BR>
generators to make their own power (not applicable in all areas). And they<BR>
subsidize Starports so that interstellar trade can occur on even TL5 worlds.<BR>
(had to get a ObTrav in somehow.)<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:04:07 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> As you might now, FF&S2 is probably the most errata-heavy book ever<BR>
> published, any category, any place, any time. However, once you chew<BR>
> through the errata (which, printed, is about as thick as the book<BR>
> itself), the system is very detailed, and not *that* hard to use.<BR>
<BR>
That's funny...I thought Star Fleet Battles had the honor of being<BR>
errata-heavy. :) :)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 09:15:37 -0600<BR>
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com><BR>
Subject: Linux software update<BR>
<BR>
Announcing version 0.9.4 of Mark's Traveller Utilities for linux.<BR>
Available at http://www.visi.com/~markn/index.html and currently <BR>
composed of:<BR>
<BR>
dice - quick-n-dirty dice hack<BR>
        Rolls dice.  Mostly written to find out how to use the<BR>
widgets...<BR>
enc_tbl - generate encounter tables<BR>
        Given a UWP, will generate a single animal encounter, an<BR>
encounter<BR>
        table for a particular terrain, or tables for all terrains. <BR>
Formats<BR>
        output for CT, MT, TNE, and T4 in either plain text or<BR>
postscript.<BR>
sector - view and print sectors<BR>
        Takes a sector file and formats a sector map with location,<BR>
name,<BR>
        UWP, gas giant presence, base and allegence coding.  Also allows<BR>
        addition of color borders and routes.  Outputs any range of<BR>
worlds<BR>
        to postscript or a graphics format.<BR>
sysgen - generate star systems<BR>
        Allows full automatic generation or manual intervention of Book<BR>
6 <BR>
        star system generation.<BR>
system - view edit and print star systems<BR>
        Edits a file from sysgen.  Presents orbits in a tree like manner<BR>
and<BR>
        as concentric circles.  Outputs to postscript or a grahics<BR>
format.<BR>
word - generate random words<BR>
        Based on the tables presented in the Alien Modules (I believe).<BR>
        Currently includes data files for droyne, trokh, zhodani, gvegh,<BR>
and<BR>
        vilani.  Others are possible.<BR>
world - generate and print world details<BR>
        Rapidly (re)generates WBH type data.  Allows intervention for <BR>
        terraforming and rotational period.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark<BR>
<BR>
Linux, it is now safe to turn ON your computer.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:33:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Happy Birthday to me!<BR>
<BR>
 Sheer coincidence, but the Classic Traveller Collector Edition reprint<BR>
volume one arrived this morning, and it just happens to be my 37th birthday,<BR>
too.  Cool, huh?  Look for a review later tonight on the Downport.com news<BR>
page.  Excuse me while I go play ;-)<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 07:51:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Clarification: (Re: Signing off for a while)<BR>
<BR>
Rob wrote several of us who responded to his post with:<BR>
<BR>
>I am deeply touched by your support.  Thank you, all of you.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>However, I fear I should have read my message more carefully. I'm a single<BR>
>teacher, and often use "my kids" when talking about my students.<BR>
><BR>
>Fhera was the daughter of friends of mine, and one of 'my kids' at school.<BR>
><BR>
>Her death has left the world emptier and, for her younger sister and<BR>
>cousins, much scarier. Her cousin Andre, who thought of her as his best<BR>
>friend, has been over to talk already.  How do you explain death to a<BR>
>ten-year-old?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Once again, thank you for your support, and please accept my apologies for<BR>
>misleading you. I would be grateful if someone could post a clarification<BR>
>to the TML.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Robert<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:08:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
At 10:04 AM 2/26/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> As you might now, FF&S2 is probably the most errata-heavy book ever<BR>
>> published, any category, any place, any time. However, once you chew<BR>
>> through the errata (which, printed, is about as thick as the book<BR>
>> itself), the system is very detailed, and not *that* hard to use.<BR>
><BR>
>That's funny...I thought Star Fleet Battles had the honor of being<BR>
>errata-heavy. :) :)<BR>
<BR>
1st printing boxed set MegaTraveller. No contest.<BR>
<BR>
I have the comined T4/CSC errata on my page at:<BR>
<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/t4.html<BR>
<BR>
The FFS2 math equations in a more readable format:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/FFSEquations.html<BR>
<BR>
I used to have a page listed that had all the FFS2 Errata. I'm not sure<BR>
where it went though.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:19:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
At 04:36 PM 2/25/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> You've been around long enough to *know* that ?  I just knew you were an <BR>
>> Ancient !!!<BR>
><BR>
>One of those newcomers? Hardly... but if you ever get a look at the<BR>
>original blueprints for the Cosmos, look for my signature in the<BR>
>"Approved by:" block.... :-)<BR>
<BR>
"And then did the holy Project Manager come unto the Cosmic Design Team,<BR>
bearing the Blueprints of All. Sayeth He to His Draftsmen, 'Thou have<BR>
worked well and true, and thy labors have bourne fruit. but I say to thee,<BR>
thy labors shall be unceasing, as the Customer hath changed the<BR>
requirements yet again.<BR>
<BR>
"And there was a great wailing amongst the Designers and Draftsmen, and<BR>
much printing of Resumes, and many phone calls to the Not-So Understanding<BR>
Spouses. And the Designers returned to the yoke of the CAD screens, while<BR>
the Draftsmen feasted on cold pizza and warm Jolt, vey verily.<BR>
<BR>
"Here endth the lesson. amen."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:27:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASS - Re: human habitable planets<BR>
<BR>
At 07:25 PM 2/25/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>You make me feel as if I'm but an infant...and I typed up the 4187 to<BR>
>promote Christ to PFC (the rank before Corporal, for the non-US Army<BR>
>among us).  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Feh. I once hid behing a some brush I was burning off and told Moses to led<BR>
a Rebellion. Who kbnew the guy would take me seiously?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 08:31:57<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
<BR>
At 08:33 PM 2/25/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>Hi all. This is my first post to the list (hope this doesn't come thru<BR>
>with HTML).<BR>
<BR>
No HTML attachments (thank god)<BR>
<BR>
>Years ago I had a book entitle "World Builder Handbook" (I think that is<BR>
>the title). It had a flowchart detailing how to design a world using<BR>
>it's UWP. Such as number of major lakes, number of small villages,<BR>
>social quarks and idiosyncrasies.<BR>
<BR>
Great book.<BR>
<BR>
>Does anybody Know where I can get this flowchart? Preferably an online<BR>
>source.<BR>
<BR>
A couple of options.<BR>
<BR>
There is a program called World Builder Deluxe written by one of the list<BR>
members. I haven't used it, since I still use Win3x, but it has received<BR>
rave reviews.<BR>
<BR>
Pick up _First In_ for GURPS Traveller. The world design system in it is<BR>
very well down, and while not on-line yet, does a spectacular job.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:07:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: The Filk Pages are up!<BR>
<BR>
Freed from the Silly Era, the new Traveller Filk page is now up at:<BR>
<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/travfilk.html<BR>
<BR>
Feedback is welcome about the quality of the songs, the page layout, any<BR>
stupid spelling errors I missed...<BR>
<BR>
If you have a song on the page, I need to hear from you about the following<BR>
question. I'm going to put a blanket permission disclaimer on the main page<BR>
for all of my songs. If somebody wants to perform my stuff, I have no<BR>
problem with that, I just want to know about it (and get a tape). I you<BR>
wanted to be added to this list, let me know, or I can add a "contact<BR>
author concerning performance rights (with an email link) to each song.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:12:52<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
<BR>
A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
<BR>
Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not come up at<BR>
the table, but they are also possibilities. How about swallowing something?<BR>
Unless inexperienced teleporters leave behind the contents of their<BR>
digestive tracts, and object in the stomach should come along and could be<BR>
recovered by vomiting. (This would explain the Psionic Surpressions,<BR>
though.)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry  ~'+#@#+'~  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts. These <BR>
 same thoughts people this little World"<BR>
- - stained glass window in the Winchester Mystery House.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:55:59 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
> <BR>
> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
<BR>
My initial take would be that she could not carry anything in her mouth<BR>
while teleporting at this level.  After all, at this stage in her<BR>
training, she can't reliably maintain the pattern of anything other than<BR>
her own body during the 'port.  An attempt to do so without the required<BR>
skill and experience could result in deep unpleasantness, should the<BR>
pattern become scrambled in some way.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not come up at<BR>
> the table, but they are also possibilities. How about swallowing something?<BR>
> Unless inexperienced teleporters leave behind the contents of their<BR>
> digestive tracts, and object in the stomach should come along and could be<BR>
> recovered by vomiting. (This would explain the Psionic Surpressions,<BR>
> though.)<BR>
<BR>
My explanation above can account for this.  Eaten food is relatively<BR>
undifferentiated, and therefore has a fairly easy pattern to maintain<BR>
(minor screwups wouldn't matter much).  Swallowed devices, OTOH, would<BR>
require more complex patterns to retain their functionality, since both<BR>
composition and shape would have to be retained, with very little room<BR>
for error.  An inexperienced teleporter simply cannot reliably maintain<BR>
both his/her/its own body integrity and the structural integrity of<BR>
devices.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps one could 'port  after swallowing items, the shape of which is<BR>
immaterial (e.g., gold nuggets).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:27:56 -0500<BR>
From: "Bloo" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
The United Nations owns the moon.  Sort of.<BR>
<BR>
There is a Space Treaty, which precedes and takes<BR>
precedence over Mr. Hope's empty claim.  By operation of<BR>
law (the US Constitution), the international treaty is a part<BR>
of US law.  Thus, under American law, he cannot state<BR>
a valid claim for it.  So that they have ignored him is irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
It has been about 10 years since I looked at the Space<BR>
treaty.  But as I recall, the signatories agree that everything<BR>
outside Earth's orbits (moons, planets, comets, asteroids,<BR>
etc.) cannot be owned by any government (other than the<BR>
UN). It does allow commercial development of these properties<BR>
though.  It requires permission from the UN to do, and all of<BR>
the profits must be given to the UN.  Kind of kills the profit<BR>
incentive to explore.  There is a similar provision in one of the<BR>
ocean treaties concerning the ocean floor (not the continential<BR>
shelves) outside of territorial and exclusive economic zone<BR>
waters (not that anyone can actually mine these area yet).<BR>
<BR>
However, once space travel/exploration/mining is cheap<BR>
enough, all that needs to happen is for the UN to allow<BR>
the companies to keep a significan percentage of the profits.<BR>
Then the UN collects it tax, the companies collect a profit,<BR>
and we're off to the races.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 4:02 PM<BR>
Subject: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I wandered by the Lunar Embassy web site,<BR>
> http://www.lunarembassy.com/ ,<BR>
> run by a Mr. Dennis Hope. He's selling extraterrestrial real estate, and<BR>
> says he has a legal basis for doing so.<BR>
><BR>
> He claims to have filed a claim of ownership to Luna, Venus, Mars,<BR>
> and all other bodies in our solar system with the exception of Earth.<BR>
><BR>
> According to his web site, the US government and the UN have failed to<BR>
> challenge his claim within the legally-specified amount of time, therefore<BR>
> they have de facto given his claim legal standing. He was then allowed to<BR>
> copyright his claim in the US (or at least in California), which I do not<BR>
> understand. He also claims that relevant UN decisions about exploitation<BR>
> of space failed to specifically prohibit private citizens from claiming<BR>
> ownership, giving him a loophole to work with.<BR>
><BR>
> Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
> government or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
> interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 15:24:16 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
    I just wrapped up a law review article on this topic.  By my reading, the <BR>
1967 Space Treaty does clearly prohibit assertions of national soverignty <BR>
over all "celestial bodies", but it does not clearly allow or disallow <BR>
private development schemes.  Here on earth, most property ownership is <BR>
considered to either flow from the soveriegn or requires governmental <BR>
intervention to resolve conflicts.  Thus, everyday rules of property law <BR>
cannot be applied over bodies in outer space, since nations are hamstrung <BR>
from claiming sovereignty there.  The UN did act to clarify matters in 1979 <BR>
(seemingly inspired by O'Niells proposals for L-5 habitats and a new solar <BR>
power industry based on lunar resources).  The 1979 Moon Agreement reflects <BR>
the assertiveness of the Third World nations at that point in time.  <BR>
Emboldened by successes such as the Arab Oil Embargo and their successes in <BR>
playing the cold war superpowers off of each other to their advantage, the <BR>
leaders of the developing nations crafted the 1979 agreement to insure that <BR>
all development of the Moon and any other "celestial body" would take place <BR>
under the direction of an international organization (dominated by their <BR>
superior numbers) that would then "equitably" allocate the riches derived <BR>
from any extraterrestrial development schemes.  Remember, at the time, it <BR>
appeared that lunar mining was about to take off.  The resulting riches would <BR>
be manna from heaven showering down to be put to work bettering the plight of <BR>
their poverty stricken citizenry, or more likely, shunted into the Swiss bank <BR>
accounts of the Third World leaders pushing the scheme.  <BR>
    Not surprisingly, the space-faring nations chose to sit this treaty out, <BR>
and to this day only nine nations have ratified it.  It can be (and is) <BR>
ignored by the US and other spacefaring nations.  Under international (and <BR>
space) law, a nation cannot be bound by a treaty that it has not ratified.  <BR>
So this guy claiming the moon, as a US citizen, can thumb his nose at a UN <BR>
attempt to order him around.  However, as previously pointed out, remains <BR>
subject to US law.  And as things stand, the US is unlikely to spend hard <BR>
earned taxpayer dollars protecting his rights in the event that someone <BR>
trespasses on "his" property.    <BR>
Interestingly, the underlying philosopy and language of the Moon agreement  <BR>
is almost identical to that used in the Deep Seabed Mining provisions of the <BR>
1982 Law of the Sea convention, which received a similar reception from the <BR>
big powers twenty years ago.  Just a few years back, the developing nations <BR>
appear to have recognized that the world has changed a little in the past 20 <BR>
years, and they have caved in to allow seabed mining under terms set by the <BR>
industrialized nations.  This concesssion seems to indicate (to me at least) <BR>
that the days of paying even lip service to the Moon Agreement are numbered, <BR>
and that soon extraterrestrial resources will be encouraged by nations that <BR>
extend their jurisdiction and protection over the developers without <BR>
simultaneously asserting good -ol sovereignty over the "territory" being <BR>
developed.  It will be messy, but it might work until something better comes <BR>
along.   <BR>
<BR>
Ken<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:22:27 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Lack of Subject Error<BR>
<BR>
>At 18:31 25.02.00 -0900, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>[snip]<BR>
>>I don't know the details of the UN treaties, but I suspect they will take<BR>
>>the same tack that has been taken towards other actions: any national,<BR>
>>subject, citizen, or other affiliated being may not do such things that<BR>
>>ttheir governments are not allowed to.<BR>
><BR>
>IIRC the UN treaty forbids any exploitation of space and the outer<BR>
>planetary bodies by a single nation/government, since space is to be owned<BR>
>by all mankind.<BR>
><BR>
>BTW: Maybe I'm the only one, but your subject line always arrives blank at<BR>
>my mailbox. Is this intentional?<BR>
<BR>
I think the problem is in my mailer. Occassionally, I forget to copy the<BR>
subject line; ocassionally, it fails to send the subject line. I'm about to<BR>
upgrade.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:03:56 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Signing off for a while (+ prayer request)<BR>
<BR>
At 8:09 -0500 26/2/00,  "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sending this to the list since I don't want to crowd Rob's private<BR>
>email. I hope he returns soon and sees it.<BR>
><BR>
>Rob, knowing how a teacher fells about his/her students you have my deepest<BR>
>condolences, it's as painful as loosing one of  your own kids! It's a sign<BR>
>of your good nature that you refer to her as "One of my kids". I hope the<BR>
>pain diminishes swiftly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dear fellow TML residents,<BR>
<BR>
Rob has asked me in private email to stress that Fhera was one of his <BR>
students, not his daughter. He also asked me to thank the kind <BR>
thoughts that some of you have sent; the knowledge that Fhera is <BR>
being thought of by people across the world has helped Rob when <BR>
talking to Andre, Fhera's 10 year old cousin. The family have been <BR>
very thankful of your thoughts and prayers.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:22:01 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: houstonshocky@webtv.net<BR>
Subject: World Builder Handbook<BR>
<BR>
< Hi all. This is my first post to the list <BR>
< (hope this doesn't come thru with <BR>
< HTML). <BR>
<BR>
<< No HTML attachments (thank god) <BR>
<BR>
< Years ago I had a book entitled "World <BR>
< Builder Handbook" (I think that is the <BR>
< title). It had a flowchart detailing how to < design a world using<BR>
it's UWP. Such as < number of major lakes, number of small < villages,<BR>
social quarks and <BR>
< idiosyncrasies. <BR>
<BR>
<< Great book. <BR>
<BR>
< Does anybody Know where I can get <BR>
< this flowchart? Preferably an online <BR>
< source. <BR>
<BR>
<< A couple of options. <BR>
<< There is a program called World <BR>
<< Builder Deluxe written by one of the <BR>
<< list members. I haven't used it, since I << still use Win3x, but it<BR>
has received rave << reviews. <BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately I'm on a WebTV ~sigh~ and can't download programs.<BR>
<BR>
<< Pick up _First In_ for GURPS <BR>
<< Traveller. The world design system in it << is very well down, and<BR>
while not on-line << yet, does a spectacular job. <BR>
<BR>
I'll check out that GURPS book. I have GURPS:Space but not sure how<BR>
compatible that it with Traveller UWP.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:38:36 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to me!<BR>
<BR>
On 02/26/00 at 10:33 AM,  "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
> Sheer coincidence, but the Classic Traveller Collector Edition reprint<BR>
>volume one arrived this morning, and it just happens to be my 37th<BR>
>birthday, too.  Cool, huh?  Look for a review later tonight on the<BR>
>Downport.com news page.  Excuse me while I go play ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations, Colin! I remember 37 like it was yesterday. <g><BR>
<BR>
I got my copy of the CTCE1 today as well.  I've spent an hour<BR>
admiring it...oooh it's nice! <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
   distracted this afternoon<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 16:46:25 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
On 02/26/00 at 10:12 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
<BR>
>A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but<BR>
>t-port naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in<BR>
>question is an electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the<BR>
>size and shape of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
<BR>
Rules say no "external" materials or weapons.  Inside the mouth<BR>
would be internal, so I'd rule she could do it.  You're doing this<BR>
with middle-schoolers, huh?  You better expect a lot of giggling and<BR>
embarrassed ribbing over naked porting. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:05:48 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
<BR>
On 02/26/00 at 02:27 PM,  "Bloo" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>The United Nations owns the moon.  Sort of.<BR>
<BR>
>There is a Space Treaty, which precedes and takes<BR>
>precedence over Mr. Hope's empty claim.  By operation of<BR>
>law (the US Constitution), the international treaty is a part of US law. <BR>
>Thus, under American law, he cannot state<BR>
>a valid claim for it.  So that they have ignored him is irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
But the US Senate never ratified the Moon Treaty.  <BR>
<BR>
I suppose it could be argued that because the USA is a member of the<BR>
UN it must abide by UN treaties, but that is expressly counter to<BR>
the requirements of the American Constitution that requires<BR>
ratification of treaties by the US Senate.  Therefore, it is widely<BR>
believed that, the "Agreement Governing the Activities of States on<BR>
the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies" may be in effect for Austria<BR>
and the other countries that signed it, but it has no weight in the<BR>
United States.<BR>
<BR>
AFAIK, the USSR (and now Russia) never signed that treaty either.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:53:49 -0500<BR>
From: "Bloo" <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:05 PM<BR>
Subject: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
<BR>
> But the US Senate never ratified the Moon Treaty.<BR>
<BR>
So what?  The effect of ratification or non-ratification<BR>
can and does vary.<BR>
<BR>
The fundamental question is always, "Says who?"<BR>
That is to say, who is deciding the question.<BR>
In a US Court, lack of ratification by the US<BR>
Senate will probably be very significant, assuming<BR>
the court decides that US law is applicable (its possible<BR>
that a a US court would be deciding an issue between<BR>
two non-US parties and that the law of another government<BR>
would be applied - a straightforward though uncommonly<BR>
encountered situation).<BR>
<BR>
In the court of say, Fredonia, the ratification may well<BR>
have negligible impact.  Why?  Because signing a treaty<BR>
is some evidence of the existence of an international law.<BR>
As mentioned in a previous post, treaties are one type<BR>
of int'l law, custom is another (Customary International Law).<BR>
So, singing a treaty, even absent ratification, is strong<BR>
evidence of the existence of a CIL concerning the subject<BR>
matter of the treaty.  Courts can, and have, then referred<BR>
back to the text of the treaty to determine what the scope<BR>
of that CIL is.  Of course, their decisions and rulings based<BR>
on the interpretation of a CIL are not necessarily binding<BR>
on the interpretation of the treaty even if you had a strong<BR>
rule of stare decisis (binding precedent) in the court doing<BR>
the adjudicating.<BR>
<BR>
CIL is a major pain in the ass. Even if you decide you<BR>
can find a valid rule, if one of the parties involved is<BR>
whats called a "persistent objector", you might not<BR>
be able to apply the rule to them.  Grandfather forbid<BR>
that you should have a change of government at<BR>
some point.  Things get real interesting then.<BR>
<BR>
The sad fact is that "international law" is really just<BR>
"what can you get away with".  The legal framework<BR>
gives a rationalized justification to use so that people<BR>
won't think that its about firepower, even when they<BR>
know deep down it is.  Example:  Why can anyone<BR>
shoot at pirates on the high seas?  Because international<BR>
law says so?  No.  Because you have a bigger gun.<BR>
If you don't have a bigger gun, you don't really want<BR>
to shoot at them do you?  [Just a grossly oversimplified<BR>
example - I don't want to discuss pirates or the laws<BR>
of the high seas today ;-) ]<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose it could be argued that because the USA is a member of the<BR>
> UN it must abide by UN treaties, but that is expressly counter to<BR>
> the requirements of the American Constitution that requires<BR>
> ratification of treaties by the US Senate.<BR>
<BR>
Technically, treaties to which the US is a party (signed and ratified, etc),<BR>
can take precedence over the Constitution.  (Was that a black helicopter<BR>
I heard go by?).  They become the supreme law of the land.  Of course,<BR>
no US court is going to say that.  They're going to find and/or create<BR>
a US rule to decide the issue on, and that rule will be pretty much the<BR>
same.  But thats superficial.<BR>
<BR>
There is a layer even more fundamental than the Constitution and treaties.<BR>
Its the inherent powers of sovereignty.  Much of our federal laws are<BR>
evidence of the inherent powers of soverignty, but they do not serve to<BR>
limit it, only explicate it.  And what is the most significant inherent<BR>
power<BR>
of a sovereign careful readers?  Firepower.  The ability to exclude<BR>
someone from your territory defines sovereignty.  Its not a right.  Its not<BR>
a law.  Its an ability.  If you are unable to exclude someone from your<BR>
territory, you are not a sovereign, by definition.<BR>
<BR>
At this level, there is only naked, ugly power.  No treaties, no laws.<BR>
IMHO, it is the hallmark of civilization that we layer as much 'niceness'<BR>
as we can upon that root.  Voluntary restraint, laws, rules, customs,<BR>
etc.  Democratic power sharing is also a big plus.  But deep down,<BR>
when the shugili hits the fan, the only law is what you can get away<BR>
with.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I CAN make an Ob. Trav out of this:<BR>
<BR>
IMHO, the more layers of 'civilization' you can paper over the<BR>
naked power for the common person, the more peaceful and<BR>
productive your society will be.  But in the OTU we have the<BR>
Rule of Man, an Emperor and his inbred cousins who make<BR>
law ('restricted' only by the Moot and perhaps the Warrant<BR>
of Restoration/Constitution).  Its my feeling that for a gov't<BR>
to survive as long as it has, there must/should be a thick veil<BR>
of 'civilized' rule/law making, that gives some substance,<BR>
however thin, to the idea that there are such things as rights<BR>
and laws upon which a person can rely.  It may be an illusion<BR>
but I think it is a necessary one.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1971<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1972</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 27 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1972<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
RE: fission power for space craft<BR>
who owns the moon?<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Movie Review:  "Pitch Black" (no spoilers)<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
Re: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death already  sorry)<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
Re: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Happy Birthday to me!<BR>
Re: World Builder Handbook<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:12:42 -0800<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 2/21/00 2:49 PM, urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn mower.<BR>
> <BR>
> Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.<BR>
<BR>
Lawns in space? ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 01:20:39 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 17:12:42 -0800, "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella"<BR>
<xrp@sierratel.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Via electronic medium on 2/21/00 2:49 PM, urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn mower.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.<BR>
><BR>
>Lawns in space? ;)<BR>
><BR>
Yes, and the lawnmower has arms that flail about wildly while it<BR>
screams "Danger! Danger!"<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"Every citizen [should] be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and  the<BR>
 Romans, and must be that of every free state."   -Thomas Jefferson<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:30:15 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Via electronic medium on 2/21/00 2:49 PM, urbin@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn mower.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.<BR>
> <BR>
> Lawns in space? ;)<BR>
<BR>
Sure.  What do you think the giant mutant star goat grazes on between<BR>
planets?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 14:43:29 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
><BR>
> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
><BR>
> Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not come up at<BR>
> the table, but they are also possibilities.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry Doug, and please don't take this as an attack, but given previous<BR>
posts of yours on your sexual proclivities, and the photo on your web-site,<BR>
somehow the idea of you running a Traveller game for 12-13 year-olds<BR>
featuring naked teleporters looking for somewhere to hide their lock-picks<BR>
makes me think of the old Cheech & Chong routine featuring "Uncle Pervy".<BR>
<BR>
> How about swallowing  something?<BR>
> Unless inexperienced teleporters leave behind the contents of their<BR>
> digestive tracts, and object in the stomach should come along and could be<BR>
> recovered by vomiting. (This would explain the Psionic Surpressions,<BR>
> though.)<BR>
<BR>
I would say no unless it was integral bioware.<BR>
<BR>
I've always considered that the reason the restriction is there because they<BR>
are able to "energise" their _bodies_ at this stage, but can't handle<BR>
something that is inorganic and not "part of them".<BR>
<BR>
I'd say any foreign inorganic objects in the digestive tract would be left<BR>
behind. Undigested food can go because it is largely organic, and "normal".<BR>
<BR>
There is probably a bit of a grey line between what stays and what goes, but<BR>
something metal, ceramic, or plastic should stay unles it was an integral<BR>
part of the body that the 'porter is used to. (No porting immediately after<BR>
that sub-dermal mike is fitted !)<BR>
<BR>
Remind her that a naked teleporter usually has the advantage of surprise.<BR>
<BR>
I had a psionic with that level of ability once, who combined it with<BR>
clairvoyance. Specialized in teleporting into guard-rooms and bridges in<BR>
_exactly_ the right position to grab someone else's weapon, using that<BR>
someone as "armour" until the shooting stopped or the door was open and the<BR>
defenders had more to worry about.<BR>
<BR>
Only got embarrassed once when the enemy had a precog, so he teleported into<BR>
exactly the right place to have a gun held against his head....<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 14:45:15 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
> >> And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn mower.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.<BR>
> <BR>
> Lawns in space? ;)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, made of astro-turf.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:06:29 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
I visited this lunar embassy website, and this seems<BR>
to me an awful lot like a few rather gullible american<BR>
servicemen who got sold the Sydney Harbour Bridge in<BR>
WWII. (Urban myth? probably) It's a great way to make<BR>
money, and I guess some of the owners, like his Star<BR>
Trek cast members he mentions, well, they're willing<BR>
to pay a few bucks for humour value.<BR>
<BR>
Discussions of law are pretty much a moot point. In<BR>
the end, it'll be who settles it, lives on it, and<BR>
holds on to it that matters. Fine points of law being<BR>
considered, the aboriginals, maoris, and amerindians<BR>
of the nations of this list should be recieving rent<BR>
from the millions of settlers. <BR>
<BR>
I think also of Sam Gunn, Unlimited, when he claimed<BR>
an asteroid for ts mineral resources, ground control<BR>
radioed him to cease and desist. He radioed back, "so<BR>
come and arrest me."<BR>
<BR>
=====<BR>
KA Schuant<BR>
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club<BR>
Melbourne<BR>
Australia<BR>
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:30:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> > naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
> > electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
> > of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not come up at<BR>
> > the table, but they are also possibilities.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm sorry Doug, and please don't take this as an attack, but given previous<BR>
> posts of yours on your sexual proclivities, and the photo on your web-site,<BR>
> somehow the idea of you running a Traveller game for 12-13 year-olds<BR>
> featuring naked teleporters looking for somewhere to hide their lock-picks<BR>
> makes me think of the old Cheech & Chong routine featuring "Uncle Pervy".<BR>
<BR>
Ok...I want the web site addy now :)<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:40:47 EST<BR>
From: JDoch226@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone point me to a list of mapped sectors and where they were published?<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Jed Docherty<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 22:05:50 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say yes... though I suppose it depends on how you view the underlying<BR>
model of teleportation. For the OTU, I'd say that psionic teleportation<BR>
is some sort of trans-dimensional effect or some effect that warps space,<BR>
allowing the user to move from two physically disjoint places in their<BR>
own universe almost instantaneously. Note that per canon, all conservation<BR>
rules apply, to it's really hard to do things like teleport off a moving<BR>
train onto the ground next to it, etc.<BR>
<BR>
The better a teleporter you are, the more "stuff" you can jam through your<BR>
rift/fold/whatever. Weaker psionicists can only create an opening barely<BR>
big enough to jam themselves through, thus leaving behind any carried<BR>
equipment. Stuff in the body is ok though. Stronger psis can create bigger<BR>
openings, allowing other stuff to make it through as well.<BR>
<BR>
[Thus, the ever-tidy Zhodani can indeed take their anally-inserted fusion<BR>
incinerators with them whereever they go... as the old saying goes, <BR>
"Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but tracks"]<BR>
<BR>
But, like I said, you might have a different view of how teleportation<BR>
works. If you figure it's some sort of psionic version of a Star Trek<BR>
transporter, then, no, it's probably not going to work.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, you could take the Star Wars route: "It works if that's what<BR>
the plot needs to get it going where it needs to go. Today it works,<BR>
tomorrow it might not."<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:36:05 -0600<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Movie Review:  "Pitch Black" (no spoilers)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Chauncey Smith <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 1:27 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Movie Review: "Pitch Black" (no spoilers)<BR>
<BR>
You bet<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:28:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
><BR>
> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
><BR>
> Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not come up at<BR>
> the table, but they are also possibilities. How about swallowing something?<BR>
> Unless inexperienced teleporters leave behind the contents of their<BR>
> digestive tracts, and object in the stomach should come along and could be<BR>
> recovered by vomiting. (This would explain the Psionic Surpressions,<BR>
> though.)<BR>
<BR>
I'd rule that if she doesn't leave behind the contents of the digestive<BR>
tract (and things like fillings, bridgework, and surgical implants!)<BR>
then she can carry anything that will fit in her mouth. Ditto for body<BR>
cavities. I'd even stretch things as far as objects that can be<BR>
*completely* enclosed in a hand.<BR>
<BR>
Also, from some experiments when bored in class as a kid, I know that<BR>
it is possible to insert a pin between the layers of dead skin. So a<BR>
small lock pick could be carried that way. But you'd have to be careful<BR>
not to shred the *very* thin skin that makes up such a "sheath" when<BR>
removing or inserting the tool. Likewise, it'll only lasrt a few days<BR>
before normal wear and tear ruins it. <BR>
<BR>
Ah! A "rule of thumb" occurs to me... well, actually an "example"...<BR>
<BR>
Clip-on earrings won't 'port with her. Pierced ear rings (and other<BR>
piercings) will 'port with her.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:38:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
>><BR>
>> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
>> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
>> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
>> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not come up at<BR>
>> the table, but they are also possibilities.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm sorry Doug, and please don't take this as an attack, but given previous<BR>
> posts of yours on your sexual proclivities, and the photo on your web-site,<BR>
> somehow the idea of you running a Traveller game for 12-13 year-olds<BR>
> featuring naked teleporters looking for somewhere to hide their lock-picks<BR>
> makes me think of the old Cheech & Chong routine featuring "Uncle Pervy".<BR>
<BR>
I think you are over-reacting. I see his mention of "other body<BR>
cavities" as a point for *us* to keep in mind, not something he's going<BR>
to bring up unless the kids come up with it on their own.<BR>
<BR>
> I've always considered that the reason the restriction is there because they<BR>
> are able to "energise" their _bodies_ at this stage, but can't handle<BR>
> something that is inorganic and not "part of them".<BR>
<BR>
This requires drawing some sort of "mystical" line between things like<BR>
a plastic lock-pick and a ceramic tooth filling. <BR>
<BR>
> I'd say any foreign inorganic objects in the digestive tract would be left<BR>
> behind. Undigested food can go because it is largely organic, and "normal".<BR>
<BR>
The definition of "inorganic" is rather broad. <BR>
<BR>
> There is probably a bit of a grey line between what stays and what goes, but<BR>
> something metal, ceramic, or plastic should stay unles it was an integral<BR>
> part of the body that the 'porter is used to. (No porting immediately after<BR>
> that sub-dermal mike is fitted !)<BR>
<BR>
That's getting "mystical" again. Either they can always take the mike<BR>
with them at that level or they never can. <BR>
<BR>
However teleportation works, it *cannot* involve the person being<BR>
"aware" of fine structures etc. That would actually make it easier to<BR>
port *non* living material. <BR>
<BR>
It also can't be a "disassemble/reassemble" process. It has to be<BR>
"object" or "volume" based.<BR>
<BR>
On the "object" level, either the contents of the digestive tract are<BR>
just as much "part of the body" as fillings, surgically implanted pins<BR>
for repair, etc, or *all* of those things get left behind. <BR>
<BR>
> Remind her that a naked teleporter usually has the advantage of surprise.<BR>
<BR>
Also, black body paint can be used (along with shaving of a few areas)<BR>
to make a pretty convincing simulation of a *very* form fitting body<BR>
suit. <BR>
<BR>
That might help with the embarassment factor, as well as give at least<BR>
some advantages, both as concealment in the dark, and being not *quite*<BR>
as obvious if spotted.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 19:52:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The United Nations owns the moon.  Sort of.<BR>
><BR>
> There is a Space Treaty, which precedes and takes<BR>
> precedence over Mr. Hope's empty claim.  By operation of<BR>
> law (the US Constitution), the international treaty is a part<BR>
> of US law.  Thus, under American law, he cannot state<BR>
> a valid claim for it.  So that they have ignored him is irrelevant.<BR>
><BR>
> It has been about 10 years since I looked at the Space<BR>
> treaty.  But as I recall, the signatories agree that everything<BR>
> outside Earth's orbits (moons, planets, comets, asteroids,<BR>
> etc.) cannot be owned by any government (other than the<BR>
> UN). It does allow commercial development of these properties<BR>
> though.  It requires permission from the UN to do, and all of<BR>
> the profits must be given to the UN.  Kind of kills the profit<BR>
> incentive to explore.  There is a similar provision in one of the<BR>
> ocean treaties concerning the ocean floor (not the continential<BR>
> shelves) outside of territorial and exclusive economic zone<BR>
> waters (not that anyone can actually mine these area yet).<BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure that the US is *not* a signatory to that treaty. Folks<BR>
like the L5 society took one look at the way that ocean treaty had<BR>
killed plans for things like mining the seafloor and started lobbying<BR>
Congress to *not sign any treaty that forbids commercial exploitation<BR>
of celestial bodies. And form what I recall, they suceeded.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 23:15:11 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
sounds like you need atlas of the imperium...<BR>
way out of print<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: JDoch226@aol.com <JDoch226@aol.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Saturday, February 26, 2000 9:44 PM<BR>
Subject: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Can anyone point me to a list of mapped sectors and where they were<BR>
published?<BR>
>Thanks,<BR>
>Jed Docherty<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:42:05 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Confederation Vs. Vilani Empire (Probably done to death already  sorry)<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:17:22 -0500<BR>
From:           	"Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the lateness of this reply...<BR>
<BR>
> Hello TML.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm working slowly on my first contact years and I've hit a conundrum.<BR>
<BR>
> When the Terrans and the Vilani first mixed it up the Terrans were TL 9<BR>
> and the Vilani were tl 11.  Using High guard that limits the Terrans<BR>
> ship size to 1K tons or less and the Vilani to 50K tons or less.<BR>
<BR>
> Terra is only 7 jumps from Gasshida (at J2) the Vilani Sector Capitol.<BR>
<BR>
> Why didn't the Terrans get the crap kicked out of them?  They managed to<BR>
> hold off the ZS for 8 years with a relatively low tech (comparatively)<BR>
> and low tonnage fleet and somehow won concessions at the end.<BR>
<BR>
> How have other GM's out there dealt with this issue.<BR>
<BR>
The answer is actually quite straightforward, but a little involved.<BR>
<BR>
First there are two vital considerations<BR>
1 - Interstellar warfleets are stupendously capital intensive, with a <BR>
huge negative nett economic effect (ie they're horribly expensive). <BR>
For a culture as concerned with the bottom line as the Vilani, this <BR>
will keep fleets to a bare minimum.<BR>
2 - Interstellar warfleets in the hands of provincial governors give <BR>
them the power to ignore/threaten the Central government. Again, <BR>
for the Vilani, this pressure would tend to keep local fleets small<BR>
<BR>
Now the Rim is a backwater, and has been so for over 2000 years. <BR>
There is no external threat, nor has there been since the Vegans <BR>
were defeated some 2000 years ago. The upshot of all this is that <BR>
the fleet available to the governor during the 1st IW would only be <BR>
that deemed sufficient by central government to maintain law and <BR>
order. Now on top of this, you look at the strategic situation from <BR>
the Governors viewpoint. Which is the greater threat, the upstart <BR>
Terrans with one world and significantly inferior technology; or the <BR>
possibility of a multiworld Vegan revolt? At least in the 1st war, I <BR>
think the latter would have been uppermost in the Governors mind <BR>
and dominated his thinking.<BR>
<BR>
Then add on top of this the nature of Vilani society. In Vilani <BR>
society, a governor with any drive, talent or ambition is not going to <BR>
want to be stuck in the backwater of the Rim. Thus, you can see <BR>
the Rim being governed by a succession of mediocre chairwarmers <BR>
for millennia, with anyone with a modicum of nouce getting out as <BR>
soon as possible.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 23:47:12 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/27/00 4:11:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< > I've always considered that the reason the restriction is there because <BR>
they<BR>
 > are able to "energise" their _bodies_ at this stage, but can't handle<BR>
 > something that is inorganic and not "part of them".<BR>
 <BR>
 This requires drawing some sort of "mystical" line between things like<BR>
 a plastic lock-pick and a ceramic tooth filling.  >><BR>
<BR>
what about a prosthesis or a heart valve?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 23:57:19 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/27/00 4:27:21 AM !!!First Boot!!!, csmith@ICDC.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< sounds like you need atlas of the imperium...<BR>
 way out of print >><BR>
<BR>
I have that one, and it's only semi useful. It only lists major (population <BR>
over a billion I think; I don't have it in front of me..) worlds; the other <BR>
SQUARES (yeah, but the rows and colums are checkerboarded to visualize <BR>
connections) just list UWP data and leave the world names off. It also has <BR>
ZERO graphics except for the boxes containing the UWP data. I really bought <BR>
it to complete my collection. I think the map of the Spinwards Marches in the <BR>
deluxe CT box was MUCH better, as was the partial one in FFW. Even the LBB <BR>
maps of the Marches and the Solomani Rim were better...To be fair, if I had <BR>
more complete data (mainly the NAMES of the minor worlds in each sector), <BR>
this product would be much more useful to make nicer maps. I'm sure this is <BR>
the route that the designers of some VERY nice online maps used...<BR>
<BR>
BTW; I remember that one of the MT journals had the data for the Domain of <BR>
Deneb, and another product (that escapes me right now) has Massila Sector in <BR>
the Spinwards Marches/Solomani Rim format.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 20:55:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 6:05 PM<BR>
> Subject: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
><BR>
>> But the US Senate never ratified the Moon Treaty.<BR>
><BR>
> So what?  The effect of ratification or non-ratification<BR>
> can and does vary.<BR>
><BR>
> The fundamental question is always, "Says who?"<BR>
> That is to say, who is deciding the question.<BR>
> In a US Court, lack of ratification by the US<BR>
> Senate will probably be very significant, assuming<BR>
> the court decides that US law is applicable (its possible<BR>
> that a a US court would be deciding an issue between<BR>
> two non-US parties and that the law of another government<BR>
> would be applied - a straightforward though uncommonly<BR>
> encountered situation).<BR>
><BR>
> In the court of say, Fredonia, the ratification may well<BR>
> have negligible impact.  Why?  Because signing a treaty<BR>
> is some evidence of the existence of an international law.<BR>
<BR>
Sure, but we didn't *sign* the treaty either.<BR>
<BR>
And until and unless the UN or Fredonia has the *ability* to enforce<BR>
the treaty on US, their interpretation is irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
> Technically, treaties to which the US is a party (signed and ratified, etc),<BR>
> can take precedence over the Constitution.  (Was that a black helicopter<BR>
> I heard go by?).  They become the supreme law of the land.<BR>
<BR>
No. The Consitution says that It *and* ratified treaties are the<BR>
supreme law of the land. To the best of my knowledge, so far we've<BR>
never had to deal with a case where a treaty and the Constitution<BR>
conflict.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:28:02<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
At 02:43 PM 2/27/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sorry Doug, and please don't take this as an attack, but given previous<BR>
>posts of yours on your sexual proclivities, and the photo on your web-site,<BR>
>somehow the idea of you running a Traveller game for 12-13 year-olds<BR>
>featuring naked teleporters looking for somewhere to hide their lock-picks<BR>
>makes me think of the old Cheech & Chong routine featuring "Uncle Pervy".<BR>
<BR>
My "proclivities" consist of relationships with consenting adults. I am<BR>
deeply offended that you seem to be believe that just because I am bi and<BR>
open about it that I am a potential child molester.<BR>
<BR>
The teleporter in question is a girl I have know since she was four years<BR>
old. I used to baby-sit her when her parents had to attend some event or<BR>
the other. If she were to even annoyed by an adult male, I, and several<BR>
dozen other "Uncles" would be drawing straws for the first shot at the guy.<BR>
<BR>
I would like an apology<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:48:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Thing <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to me!<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Swordy (Colin Michael) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  Sheer coincidence, but the Classic Traveller Collector Edition reprint<BR>
> volume one arrived this morning, and it just happens to be my 37th birthday,<BR>
> too.  Cool, huh? <BR>
<BR>
I got mine today too!  Oh happy day!<BR>
<BR>
And happy birthday Swordy.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
======<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 07:26:08 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: World Builder Handbook<BR>
<BR>
At 16:22 26.02.00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><< Pick up _First In_ for GURPS <BR>
><< Traveller. The world design system in it << is very well down, and<BR>
>while not on-line << yet, does a spectacular job. <BR>
><BR>
>I'll check out that GURPS book. I have GURPS:Space but not sure how<BR>
>compatible that it with Traveller UWP.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, not at all. The UWP profile is AFAIR not used by GT:First In.<BR>
They rather propose a format as in GT:BTC, with a more detailed listing of<BR>
local conditions involved. I deem this a good approach. After all, the US,<BR>
France and Germany would be in the UWP government 4 category, even though<BR>
there *significant* differences in the constitutions and political<BR>
realities of these countries. Just as an example. The space required to<BR>
write "representative government, two parties peacefully struggling for<BR>
power" instead of "4" is paid off by the additional information you get.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 07:32:26 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
At 23:57 26.02.00 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 2/27/00 4:27:21 AM !!!First Boot!!!, csmith@ICDC.com <BR>
>writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< sounds like you need atlas of the imperium...<BR>
> way out of print >><BR>
><BR>
>I have that one, and it's only semi useful. It only lists major (population <BR>
>over a billion I think; I don't have it in front of me..) worlds; the other <BR>
>SQUARES (yeah, but the rows and colums are checkerboarded to visualize <BR>
>connections) just list UWP data and leave the world names off. <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
I don't know what you need them for (personally, I have never used more<BR>
worlds for my campaign than fit into a single sector), but I'd suggest you<BR>
simply use the information you can get about the few major Imperial worlds,<BR>
and let a computer program (I use Hexmap, downloadable at Freelance<BR>
Traveller, http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller. But this one's for<BR>
subsectors, and you better edit the resulting text files (that are read as<BR>
maps by the program) with notepad afterwards) make up the rest for you.<BR>
After all, there are variations in each GM's Traveller universe anyway.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 08:01:09 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
I've started to make up an interstellar demoracy as a minor state for my<BR>
Traveller campaign (the actual campaign takes place in Imperial space, but<BR>
it adds flavour). It's going to be about a quarter of a sector in size and<BR>
about ten parsecs at closest from the Imperial border.<BR>
<BR>
Since the 3I AFAIK claims to use the only pacticable style of interstellar<BR>
government, I would like to discuss the problems that an interstellar<BR>
republic would probably encounter (since I've only started to solve them).<BR>
I know the Zhoes have some kind of this, but that's i fact more an<BR>
oligarchy- this plus the heavy use of psionics make it hard to use them as<BR>
a model for an IR (interstellar republic). My IR is human (Solomani<BR>
derived), psionic are unknown (probably due to some combination of genetic<BR>
and environmental effects).<BR>
<BR>
First, of course, I see distance as a problem. I the 3I, this has been<BR>
solved by feudalism. For a republic, my answer is federalism: The worlds<BR>
have all type "4" governments (more or less) and have "subsector<BR>
governements and parliaments", elected for a period of five years. At the<BR>
top, there is the Alliance Government, again with a parliament, again<BR>
elcted for five years. Embassies of the member worlds are only placed at<BR>
the subsector capitals, embassies for the subsector governments are set at<BR>
the Alliance capital. The embassies have to be _heared_ by the parliaments<BR>
before a decision is made, but they may not vote themselves.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Second, of course, the 3I itsself (or local dukes of it) could see such a<BR>
gvernment as a threat to their own rule, or, even worse, try to make the IR<BR>
a client state of the Imperium, making it in fact unimportant who is<BR>
elected as top of the IR, as long as they do what they are told. My IR<BR>
solves this problem using a combined strategy: <BR>
<BR>
- -First, they have no "missionary" ambitions, or at least they claim so.<BR>
"What is good for us is probably not usable for all sophonts, not even all<BR>
humaniti." <BR>
<BR>
- -Second, they build and maintain a (measured by their "gross alliance<BR>
product") extremely large space navy and military, to make any aggression<BR>
by the Imperium seem very expensive to an Impy.<BR>
<BR>
- -Third, they allow open commerce and trade between the 3I and their member<BR>
worlds. They are well aware that otherwise soem megacopr in the Imperium<BR>
would use its influence to let the IN "open trade" militarily. This makes<BR>
it hard for any goverment to stay uncorrupted by an Imperial megacorp, but<BR>
freedom of the press helps to hold this within reasonable limits.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Have I overlooked any additional problems for this to be conclusive?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1972<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 27 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1973<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
RE: Who owns the moon?<BR>
RE: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
Heaven & Earth<BR>
re: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
7 Days (Was Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU)<BR>
Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
HIWG CD<BR>
Fwd: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:21:19 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:37:53 -0500<BR>
From:           	"Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
<BR>
> I guess the mechanics of CT are what's killing me here.  (It's what I<BR>
> know and love, quirks and all, so I probably won't be changing any time<BR>
> soon.)<BR>
<BR>
> Under high guard rules you can build a particle accelerator at TL 8 that<BR>
> weighs 5500 tons.  However, your maximum hull size as limited by maximum<BR>
> computer size is<BR>
<BR>
> 1,000 tons at TL 8<BR>
> 4,000 tons at TL 9<BR>
> 10,000 tons at TL 10<BR>
> 50,000 tons at TL 11<BR>
<BR>
Okay, first you've misread the rules. At TL 9 you can build a Mod/3 <BR>
computer. Hull size K (<10,000 Td) requires a Mod/4 computer. <BR>
Thus a Mod/3 can be used for a size code J (9,000 to 9,999 Td). <BR>
Thus the upper limit for a Terran ship is 9,999 Td. Thus you can <BR>
build a say 9,500 Td J1 M1 ship around a Type B PA (I know, I did <BR>
it in a debate with Leroy a few years back). This makes life a heck <BR>
of a lot easier.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 02:31:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
<BR>
I have spent several hours fondling volume one and have posted a brief<BR>
review on the News page of Downport.com ( http://www.downport.com/news/ ).<BR>
I wanted to mention a couple of other things while on the subject.  First,<BR>
Marc has searched around the web and come up with two options for credit<BR>
card payment for items purchased from FFE.  Second, I noticed in the<BR>
literature that came with the book that Marc has copies of a few out of<BR>
print items in stock.  They include the game Imperium (the original) and,<BR>
oddly enough, Alien Module 2, K'kree.  I bet the poor slob who paid $81 for<BR>
their copy on eBay would cry if they found out Marc is selling them for<BR>
$11.00!  LOL<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Swordy (Colin Michael)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
> Sheer coincidence, but the Classic Traveller Collector Edition reprint<BR>
> volume one arrived this morning, and it just happens to be my 37th<BR>
birthday,<BR>
> too.  Cool, huh?  Look for a review later tonight on the Downport.com news<BR>
> page.  Excuse me while I go play ;-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:38:38 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
Historical precedent is that in order to claim a land someone must go there<BR>
raise a flag, or other recognised symbol and make a speech claiming the<BR>
region, presumable before witnesses.<BR>
<BR>
On this basis Mars, Venus etc are open slather, if you can get there, but<BR>
here the UN treaty may occur.<BR>
<BR>
In the case of the moon you could claim something else, after all Apollo 11<BR>
landed on the moon, the crew raised a flag, made a speech (televised back to<BR>
Earth) and left a plaque stating ...for all mankind... Or something like<BR>
that I didn't have time to look it up. Ipso facto does this not give the UN<BR>
jurisdiction of the moon? Any astro lawyers out there?<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 23:58:53 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
<BR>
Yep, it's here. Maybe I'm just getting old (after all, I do remember saving<BR>
computer programs on paper tape from a teletype), but I had a heck of a time<BR>
reading some of the text in The Collector's Edition. Some of the pictures<BR>
were also really washed out. For example, TAS Form 6, on p. 13 of Book 3 was<BR>
almost totally illegible.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, it's good to see the old books back in print.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 03:00:41 -0500<BR>
From: "Michael Peters" <travelleri@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Swordy (Colin Michael) <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 2:31 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I have spent several hours fondling volume one and have posted a brief<BR>
> review on the News page of Downport.com ( http://www.downport.com/news/ ).<BR>
> I wanted to mention a couple of other things while on the subject.  First,<BR>
> Marc has searched around the web and come up with two options for credit<BR>
> card payment for items purchased from FFE.  Second, I noticed in the<BR>
> literature that came with the book that Marc has copies of a few out of<BR>
> print items in stock.  They include the game Imperium (the original) and,<BR>
> oddly enough, Alien Module 2, K'kree.  I bet the poor slob who paid $81<BR>
for<BR>
> their copy on eBay would cry if they found out Marc is selling them for<BR>
> $11.00!  LOL<BR>
><BR>
Swordy,<BR>
<BR>
Worse yet someone's over $150.00! for Fifth Frontier War! Worse is it's<BR>
still got 5 days left on the auction! Oh, well, no accounting hunh?<BR>
<BR>
Mike<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 07:29:00 +0000<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> Hi!<BR>
> <BR>
> I've started to make up an interstellar demoracy as a minor state for my<BR>
> Traveller campaign (the actual campaign takes place in Imperial space, but<BR>
> it adds flavour). It's going to be about a quarter of a sector in size and<BR>
> about ten parsecs at closest from the Imperial border.<BR>
> <BR>
> Since the 3I AFAIK claims to use the only pacticable style of interstellar<BR>
> government, I would like to discuss the problems that an interstellar<BR>
> republic would probably encounter (since I've only started to solve them).<BR>
<BR>
For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think of anything that would be<BR>
better than the importance of personal responsibility.  It's all tied in very<BR>
strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the resultant communications lag. <BR>
You can't keep asking the sector duke/govenor/whatever how to deal with every<BR>
unexpected eventuality.  You can't afford to wait the weeks/months for<BR>
authorisation/instructions.  Your the one there with the situation spitting in<BR>
your face, you make the decision.  The Imperium as a whole will just have to<BR>
deal with the consequences.<BR>
<BR>
> I know the Zhoes have some kind of this, but that's i fact more an<BR>
> oligarchy- this plus the heavy use of psionics make it hard to use them as<BR>
> a model for an IR (interstellar republic). My IR is human (Solomani<BR>
> derived), psionic are unknown (probably due to some combination of genetic<BR>
> and environmental effects).<BR>
> <BR>
> First, of course, I see distance as a problem. I the 3I, this has been<BR>
> solved by feudalism. For a republic, my answer is federalism: The worlds<BR>
> have all type "4" governments (more or less) and have "subsector<BR>
> governements and parliaments", elected for a period of five years. At the<BR>
> top, there is the Alliance Government, again with a parliament, again<BR>
> elcted for five years. Embassies of the member worlds are only placed at<BR>
> the subsector capitals, embassies for the subsector governments are set at<BR>
> the Alliance capital. The embassies have to be _heared_ by the parliaments<BR>
> before a decision is made, but they may not vote themselves.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Second, of course, the 3I itsself (or local dukes of it) could see such a<BR>
> gvernment as a threat to their own rule, or, even worse, try to make the IR<BR>
> a client state of the Imperium, making it in fact unimportant who is<BR>
> elected as top of the IR, as long as they do what they are told. My IR<BR>
> solves this problem using a combined strategy: <BR>
<BR>
I see this as being dependant on the personality of the Duke, naturally, unless<BR>
the Emperor has dictated a specific foreign policy with regards to this IR. <BR>
It's not as if this government has just sprung up and the Duke needs to decide<BR>
policy now!  He has had, probably, years of intelligence data to work with and<BR>
at least some sort of comment from the Emperor regarding them.<BR>
<BR>
This inteligence data will have been processed and would include some sort of<BR>
indicator regarding how large the IR could grow and still function with it's<BR>
present form of government.  The ratio of current size with this theoretically<BR>
stable maximum would count somewhat in the Duke consideration of their<BR>
expansionistic threat.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> -First, they have no "missionary" ambitions, or at least they claim so.<BR>
> "What is good for us is probably not usable for all sophonts, not even all<BR>
> humaniti." <BR>
<BR>
Perhaps they are about as large as their government can cope with, and they<BR>
don't want to have provinces so far removed from the center of government that<BR>
it makes it harder for them to govern effectively.<BR>
<BR>
Consider: if the telegraph and radio hadn't been invented until much latter<BR>
than they were, how many countries would the USA have been.  The people of CA<BR>
wouldn't want to be governed by a someone that was several weeks away.  Not<BR>
without resorting to feudalisim of some sort at least.<BR>
<BR>
disclaimer #1: I have absolutely /no/ earthly idea how long communications<BR>
would take from one coast of the USA to the other.<BR>
disclaimer #2: My knowledge of American history, particularly it's early<BR>
history is very vauge, please excuse any snafu's.<BR>
<BR>
If the IR 'claims' not to be expansionistic, but the analysts say that their<BR>
government structure could cope with a much larger area. Then the Sector Duke<BR>
could be quite justified in keeping a very close eye, read as 'lots of spys', on<BR>
this IR.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> -Second, they build and maintain a (measured by their "gross alliance<BR>
> product") extremely large space navy and military, to make any aggression<BR>
> by the Imperium seem very expensive to an Impy.<BR>
> <BR>
> -Third, they allow open commerce and trade between the 3I and their member<BR>
> worlds. They are well aware that otherwise soem megacopr in the Imperium<BR>
> would use its influence to let the IN "open trade" militarily. This makes<BR>
> it hard for any goverment to stay uncorrupted by an Imperial megacorp, but<BR>
> freedom of the press helps to hold this within reasonable limits.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Have I overlooked any additional problems for this to be conclusive?<BR>
<BR>
No, not that I can see.  The main decision I see you would need to make is what<BR>
do the Imperial analysts say this IR is capable of.  Remember, as someone else<BR>
said much better than I, Spooks never tell you what someone is 'planning',<BR>
just what they are capable of with their resources.  They leave it up to<BR>
others to assume that they are going to do it.  "Sir, if they were to send<BR>
their 3rd Fleet against Persnim they could easily capture our heavy industry<BR>
facilities their.  We would suffer severe losses both in IN resources and lost<BR>
production at Persnim before we could marshal our forces to cast them out.  Our<BR>
information sources tell us that there has been a rise in their Navy's forces<BR>
in the Grath system, which is only three jumps from Persnim."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell<BR>
kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 03:27:20 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/27/00 8:06:17 AM !!!First Boot!!!, travelleri@home.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Worse yet someone's over $150.00! for Fifth Frontier War! Worse is it's<BR>
 still got 5 days left on the auction! Oh, well, no accounting hunh?<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I should show this one to my wife. She got pissed that I paid $35 for <BR>
mine...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 08:26:13 +0000<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: The Collector Edition Review (was: Happy Birthday to me!)<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Swordy \(Colin Michael\) wrote:<BR>
> I have spent several hours fondling volume one and have posted a brief<BR>
> review on the News page of Downport.com ( http://www.downport.com/news/ ).<BR>
> I wanted to mention a couple of other things while on the subject.  First,<BR>
> Marc has searched around the web and come up with two options for credit<BR>
> card payment for items purchased from FFE.  Second, I noticed in the<BR>
<BR>
Where can I find these credit card options?<BR>
<BR>
> literature that came with the book that Marc has copies of a few out of<BR>
> print items in stock.  They include the game Imperium (the original) and,<BR>
> oddly enough, Alien Module 2, K'kree.  I bet the poor slob who paid $81 for<BR>
> their copy on eBay would cry if they found out Marc is selling them for<BR>
> $11.00!  LOL<BR>
> <BR>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
> Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
> www.downport.com<BR>
> The Traveller Domain<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Swordy (Colin Michael)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
> > Sheer coincidence, but the Classic Traveller Collector Edition reprint<BR>
> > volume one arrived this morning, and it just happens to be my 37th<BR>
> birthday,<BR>
> > too.  Cool, huh?  Look for a review later tonight on the Downport.com news<BR>
> > page.  Excuse me while I go play ;-)<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell<BR>
kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:13:11 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> > I've always considered that the reason the restriction is there<BR>
> > because they  are able to "energise" their _bodies_ at this stage,<BR>
> >but can't handle something that is inorganic and not "part of them".<BR>
><BR>
> This requires drawing some sort of "mystical" line between things like<BR>
> a plastic lock-pick and a ceramic tooth filling.<BR>
<BR>
Not so much mystical, as a line of familiarity and comfortableness. Not<BR>
something that's easy to define in hard terms, but it's easy for people to<BR>
know when they are comfortable with something, when it no longer feels out<BR>
of place or irritating.<BR>
<BR>
> > I'd say any foreign inorganic objects in the digestive tract<BR>
> > would be leftbehind. Undigested food can go because it is<BR>
> > largely organic, and "normal".<BR>
><BR>
> The definition of "inorganic" is rather broad.<BR>
<BR>
True, thinking about it, I'd drop the "inorganic/organic" bit. What it's<BR>
made of  is irrelevant really.<BR>
<BR>
> > There is probably a bit of a grey line between what stays and<BR>
> > what goes, but  something metal, ceramic, or plastic should<BR>
> > stay unles it was an integral part of the body that the 'porter<BR>
> > is used to. (No porting immediately after<BR>
> > that sub-dermal mike is fitted !)<BR>
><BR>
> That's getting "mystical" again. Either they can always take the mike<BR>
> with them at that level or they never can.<BR>
<BR>
Not really mystical, actually far less mystical than teleporting is.<BR>
<BR>
> However teleportation works, it *cannot* involve the person being<BR>
> "aware" of fine structures etc. That would actually make it easier to<BR>
> port *non* living material.<BR>
<BR>
Not the idea I was trying to convey. They aren't "aware" of it in any great<BR>
detail, it just has to "be a part of them" such that they "feel" it is a<BR>
part of them.<BR>
<BR>
So, if the person _regularly_ keeps a lock-pick in their mouth, or<BR>
internally elsewhere, then fine. But not as a spur of the moment thing.<BR>
<BR>
> It also can't be a "disassemble/reassemble" process. It has to be<BR>
> "object" or "volume" based.<BR>
<BR>
I always considered it was "field" based myself, i.e something like a<BR>
biomagnetic field or Kirlian aura which is why it can later be extended  to<BR>
other items and people (people can learn to extend and shape their Kirlian<BR>
aura according to some articles I read on it), but doesn't normally take<BR>
along things the teleporter doesn't want, like bits of the floor beneath the<BR>
shoes.<BR>
<BR>
> On the "object" level, either the contents of the digestive tract are<BR>
> just as much "part of the body" as fillings, surgically implanted pins<BR>
> for repair, etc, or *all* of those things get left behind.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, but "object" based doesn't make much sense IMO, as bodies have no<BR>
sharply defined "edges" for the object concept to work well on it.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:42:52 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry<BR>
> At 02:43 PM 2/27/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >I'm sorry Doug, and please don't take this as an attack, but<BR>
> >given previous posts of yours on your sexual proclivities,<BR>
> > and the photo on your web-site, somehow the idea of you running<BR>
> >a Traveller game for 12-13 year-olds featuring naked teleporters<BR>
> >looking for somewhere to hide their lock-picks<BR>
> >makes me think of the old Cheech & Chong routine featuring "Uncle Pervy".<BR>
><BR>
> My "proclivities" consist of relationships with consenting adults. I am<BR>
> deeply offended that you seem to be believe that just because I am bi and<BR>
> open about it that I am a potential child molester.<BR>
><BR>
> The teleporter in question is a girl I have know since she was four years<BR>
> old. I used to baby-sit her when her parents had to attend some event or<BR>
> the other. If she were to even annoyed by an adult male, I, and several<BR>
> dozen other "Uncles" would be drawing straws for the first shot<BR>
> at the guy.<BR>
><BR>
> I would like an apology<BR>
<BR>
Certainly.<BR>
<BR>
I apologize unreservedly for offending you, it was not my intent to offend ,<BR>
and I in no way meant to imply you that were a child molester.<BR>
<BR>
I had a humourous mental picture juxtaposing the "Uncle Pervy" character (he<BR>
who asks if you want to learn how to light your farts) and the concept of<BR>
naked teleporters (who might dissappear in a sulphurous flash accompanied by<BR>
a BAMF noise should such be attempted).<BR>
<BR>
I admit I was playing on the negative stereotype of anyone with non-"normal"<BR>
sexual preferences being considered a pervert, but was referring as much to<BR>
your mentions of S&M/roleplay behaviour as your "bi-ness".<BR>
<BR>
What I wrote was poorly written, in that it did not convey what I had<BR>
intended it to (on afterthought the reference is not at all obvious) and it<BR>
to  did not come across as funny either.<BR>
<BR>
I also apologize to any other member of the TML wo may have been offended or<BR>
angered by my post.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:37:25 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
On 26 Feb 00, at 6:31, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 16:02 25.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >I wandered by the Lunar Embassy web site, <BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> >Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
> >government <BR>
> <BR>
> Why the US government? Have I overlooked some news flash?<BR>
> <BR>
> >or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
> >interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
> <BR>
> Interesting question: What if some European does the same? <BR>
> <BR>
> Probably those will "own the moon" who first have the ability to exploit<BR>
> whatever they find there. And that  will IMHO be corporations, not<BR>
> governments or single persons.(If it can be done economically at all.) As<BR>
> for current laws, not even _murder_ is forbidden in space, since it is not<BR>
> the territory of any nation. The exception are those countries that claim<BR>
> their laws to be also for any of its citizens, wherever they be at the<BR>
> time of crime. IIRC most countries take a different approach: The laws are<BR>
> enforced on its entire territory, what ever happens beyond the borders is<BR>
> not the ropblem of the countrie's jurisdictions.<BR>
> <BR>
> So maybe the first space war will be a corp war?<BR>
<BR>
IMO the areas developed by the corps will belong to the government of <BR>
the country the corp supposedly is a part of. Like the Europeans in the <BR>
far east with their companies - the British India Company, the Dutch <BR>
East Indes Company, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming the above corporate wars make perfect sense, as do war started <BR>
by corporations and prosecuted by their governments (which is wonderful <BR>
for the corps, who don't have to foot most of the bill).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:58:56 -0000<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
As anyone who keeps track of Heaven & Earth's progress at my website will<BR>
know the anticipated release date of the program was going to be the 28th<BR>
February 2000.<BR>
<BR>
The program is currently about 99% complete and I am hunting down the final<BR>
few bugs in the program. However, some of them are proving to be quite<BR>
difficult to resolve so, at the moment the program will be released when it<BR>
is ready.<BR>
<BR>
A Beta of the program is available to members of the WBD/H&E Mailing List<BR>
at:-<BR>
<BR>
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/WBDMailingList<BR>
<BR>
The Beta contains all of the features that will be contained in the first<BR>
release of the program and is stable, but contains a number of small bugs.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:42:28 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
<BR>
At 19:31 -0500 26/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>There is a program called World Builder Deluxe written by one of the list<BR>
>members. I haven't used it, since I still use Win3x, but it has received<BR>
>rave reviews.<BR>
<BR>
It's written by Stuart Ferris with Derrick Jones and is now called <BR>
Heaven and Earth. ISTR that it is hosted at www.downport.com but I <BR>
haven't used it because I have a MacOS machine and can't be bothered <BR>
to get Virtual PC.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------<BR>
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the notion<BR>
that the future is something we build. It doesn't just happen.<BR>
You can't predict the future, but you can invent it. Build it." -<BR>
'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn ---All Rob Prior's<BR>
MacOS software @ http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:00:37 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
At 2:03 -0500 27/2/00, "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com> wrote:<BR>
>sounds like you need atlas of the imperium...<BR>
>way out of print<BR>
<BR>
Or buy 'Milieu 0 Campaign' which has the IG first Survey book <BR>
included, with data for many of the sectors regressed to M0 and <BR>
maps.. Don't bu First Survey on its own though as it is pretty much <BR>
as waste of money without the hardback M0 book additions. It's <BR>
picture is really lousy, so it doesn't even make as good a mousemat <BR>
as Starships did.<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, wander to the Missouri Archive (can't remember the <BR>
direct URL but it is linked from the Jumpsites page at BITS <BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/ ) and download the corrected First Survey <BR>
data files.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, if you look around several TML members went and <BR>
corrected the M0 data against past canon - ISTR that Carlos and <BR>
Volker did some sectors and I posted some notes on Core a while ago.<BR>
<BR>
If you want M1100 it may be worth hunting out the Galactic software <BR>
as I believe people have generated the data files for M1100, and that <BR>
you can print maps. Again, this is from listening to TML discussions <BR>
as I don't have Windows which it needs,<BR>
<BR>
In a message sethkimmel writes:<BR>
<BR>
>BTW; I remember that one of the MT journals had the data for the Domain of<BR>
>Deneb, and another product (that escapes me right now) has Massila Sector in<BR>
>the Spinwards Marches/Solomani Rim format.<BR>
<BR>
- - MTJ1 had the Domain map.<BR>
- - ISTR that MTJ2 had the data for the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
- - Most sectors were mapped and covered in the Traveller Digests with <BR>
data for 1120. Sadly these aren't canon now due to Roger Sanger <BR>
<spit>.<BR>
<BR>
'Knightfall' has Massillia sector (MT).<BR>
'An Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora Sector' has Diaspora (MT).<BR>
'Vilani and Vargr' has 'Vland' (MT-DGP)<BR>
'Solomani and Aslan' has 'Dark Nebula' (MT-DGP)<BR>
The various CT-Alien Modules have some sectors, or mapping techniques.<BR>
<BR>
The HIWG/DGP data files for sectors are on the web, either at the <BR>
Missouri Archive or at someone's site (Bruce Johnson or Dave Golden). <BR>
URLs escape me but the Missouri archive is linked from BITS (see <BR>
above).<BR>
<BR>
Hope that this helps.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 06:53:29 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
>disclaimer #1: I have absolutely /no/ earthly idea how long communications<BR>
>would take from one coast of the USA to the other.<BR>
<BR>
The famous Pony Express could make the run from Missouri to <BR>
California in ten days, before it was surpassed by the telegraph.<BR>
I don't know what the run from teh Capitol to Missouri was like, but<BR>
it was probably only slightly less.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 01:12:26 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battle Riders<BR>
<BR>
From:           	"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Date sent:      	Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:21:19 +1300<BR>
<BR>
> Thus the upper limit for a Terran ship is 9,999 Td. Thus you can <BR>
> build a say 9,500 Td J1 M1 ship around a Type B PA (I know, I did <BR>
> it in a debate with Leroy a few years back). This makes life a heck <BR>
> of a lot easier.<BR>
<BR>
Found it. <Drum roll>, so without further ado, may I present the...<BR>
<BR>
Battleship Pumpkin<BR>
Battleship BB-J4116C3-080000-60B07-0 MCr 9880.952 9.5Kton<BR>
Bat                    2     1 1 2                Crew 133<BR>
Bat Bear               2     1 1 2                TL 9<BR>
Cargo = 65T, Fuel = 1520T, EP = 570, Agility = 0,<BR>
Craft = 3 20T launches<BR>
<BR>
Now, I'm not claiming that this ship would be the greatest TL 9 <BR>
combat vessel you could design under HG (in fact, I'm pretty sure <BR>
its not). But it will fly.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 07:44:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: 7 Days (Was Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> The famous Pony Express could make the run from Missouri to<BR>
> California in ten days, before it was surpassed by the telegraph.<BR>
> I don't know what the run from teh Capitol to Missouri was like, but<BR>
> it was probably only slightly less.<BR>
> <BR>
I'm thinking of starting a Traveller campaign set around the time Strephon<BR>
is assassinated, but the catch is trying to introduce a ship which my main<BR>
group will discover during the course of the campaign. It LOOKS like an<BR>
Imperial TL 15 100-ton scout/courier, but with some horrendous capabilities:<BR>
 <BR>
1) Instead of jump drive it has a FOLD system which totally bypasses the<BR>
OTU's jumpspace physics model. This means it "jumps" instantaneously to the<BR>
target system...but there is a range limit as to how far it can fold space<BR>
2) Its communications system is also instantaneous, also with a range<BR>
limitation, but this cannot come into play unless the PC's run into the<BR>
ship's creators.<BR>
<BR>
Depending on how the PC's use the ship, eventually every faction in the<BR>
civil war (not to mention from other empires, like the Zhodani and the<BR>
Aslan) will come after them for it. Hence the following ObTrav: if a GM<BR>
introduces this type of technology (which I estimate is well above TL 21,<BR>
the maximum covered in MT charts) into their Traveller universe, what would<BR>
be the more likely result...would it make more sense for the Imperium to be<BR>
strengthened or perhaps destabilized? X-boats would be obsolete for<BR>
starters.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:35:40 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
    I reply to Antony's question concerning UN jurisdiction over the Moon, <BR>
I'd like to state that space law, it its current form is almost totally a <BR>
creation of UN action.  Back in 1959, COPUOS (the Committee on the Peacul <BR>
Uses Of Outer Space) was given the mandate to coordinate activity in this <BR>
area.  It has been very successful in my opinion, and has performed well in <BR>
creating a legal structure that has lead to the the scientific and commercial <BR>
benefits that we enjoy from space today.  <BR>
    However, legal jurisdiction over commercial development here on Earth has <BR>
always been governed by nations, either acting alone or in concert with <BR>
several others.  The 1979 Moon Agreement asserts UN control over lunar <BR>
resources, but as myself and several others have pointed out, it is only <BR>
binding on a handful of nations.  Scholars have observed that it actually <BR>
acts to inhibit development.  The UN is NOT a government.  It may possess <BR>
some governmental attributes, and it has a definite role in current <BR>
international affairs, but serving as a landlord does not appear to be a role <BR>
for which it is well suited.  Commercial development requires a higher degree <BR>
of financial and legal predictability than the UN has demonstrated.  <BR>
Investors and business decision makers are likely to turn to other ventures <BR>
in the initial decision making process if they cannot be assured of the <BR>
potential risks and returns on investment.<BR>
    The 1967 Space Treaty states that outer space is the domain of all <BR>
mankind.  This language appears to be derived from the law of the sea as it <BR>
was recognized at the time.  The high seas are open to the peaceful use of <BR>
all nations.  The UN has tried to exert jurisdiction in this area, but many <BR>
of the major powers, including the US, have basically ignored these attempts, <BR>
much as they did with the moon treaty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:53:46 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: HIWG CD<BR>
<BR>
    Okay. All the old CD's are sold out and the few new ones I managed to <BR>
make (I think). No others will be available till the next release, probably <BR>
late this year or early next year.<BR>
    The only exceptions to that would be paid up HIWG members (and that's <BR>
presuming I can make more working copies as it took 22 tries to come up with <BR>
3 or 4).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:54:45 EST<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Fwd: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
<BR>
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Return-path: Ottoklarn@aol.com<BR>
From: Ottoklarn@aol.com<BR>
Full-name: Ottoklarn<BR>
Message-ID: <1e.1efcda2.25ea8ef6@aol.com><BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:30:14 EST<BR>
Subject: Re: Whoever settles it and defends it! (was Re: Who owns the moon?)<BR>
To: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
MIME-Version: 1.0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 45<BR>
<BR>
Ken,<BR>
<BR>
Actually I would go a little bit further in this discussion to say that naked <BR>
power is most effective when it is cloaked in predictability rather than the <BR>
respectability of laws, customs, etc. IF laws, customs, etc. are stable AND <BR>
make the use of power predictable, then law serves power, power serves: <BR>
society, the ruling oligarchy, the big guy with a funny hat, the king, God <BR>
(pick one); and that entity actually serves the people (in one way) by giving <BR>
them a framework to base their life decisions on.<BR>
<BR>
     (Sidebar) I think lawyers are most hated when they intervene to change <BR>
the application of the law and therefore its predictability, particularly <BR>
when they do it in pursuit of one individual's agenda in opposition to <BR>
another individual or the state. We all must adjust to this constantly <BR>
changing set of interpretations which can easily change our lives without us <BR>
even being aware of the changes until it's too late.<BR>
<BR>
Back to the moon: It's newly discovered land, just like the new world. He who <BR>
first lands and defends it is King of the Hill, as long as he can stay on <BR>
top. Settlement is good, but not necessary. It's yours if you can defend your <BR>
position: that you claim it and can keep all others from occupying it. The <BR>
fact that the moon cannot be settled yet need not stop a powerful country <BR>
(three letters - anyone want to guess?) from claiming ownership on the basis <BR>
of their ability to keep all others off of it through, say, an Earth-based <BR>
missle system that destroys any enemy ship about to "invade" the moon by <BR>
landing there. The fact that this may be an "ownership" constantly contested <BR>
and more trouble than it's worth enters in to the discussion whether or not <BR>
to try this course of action, not whether or not it works.<BR>
<BR>
Reference the first part of this message - predictability. If the USSR had <BR>
been in a position to claim the moon this way, it would have been a <BR>
predictable use of their power. Hence it would be greeted with fewer howls of <BR>
outrage than if we had done the same thing. It's also more likely to have <BR>
worked.<BR>
<BR>
Bill   <BR>
<BR>
- --part1_b5.10c039a.25eaa2c5_boundary--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1973<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1974</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/27/00 12:42:26 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Sunday, February 27 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1974<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1971<BR>
Subject: re: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
Re: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
Underwater habitation<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
RE: Underwater habitation<BR>
Re: who owns the moon?<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 10:09:59 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> If you want M1100 it may be worth hunting out the Galactic software<BR>
> as I believe people have generated the data files for M1100, and that<BR>
> you can print maps. Again, this is from listening to TML discussions<BR>
> as I don't have Windows which it needs,<BR>
<BR>
Galactic is a _very_ worthwhile program. I haven't tried printing maps<BR>
with it, but it not only comes with a number of canonical sectors (in<BR>
several different milieux), but also generates variant sectors for you. <BR>
You can download Galactic 2.4 from:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/8023/<BR>
<BR>
It runs under DOS (or in a DOS window under Win9x).  I don't know<BR>
whether WinNTie can run it.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 18:03:53 +0200<BR>
From: "Giuseppe" <russellp@iafrica.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1971<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > I wandered by the Lunar Embassy web site,<BR>
> > http://www.lunarembassy.com/ ,<BR>
> > run by a Mr. Dennis Hope. He's selling extraterrestrial real estate, and<BR>
> > says he has a legal basis for doing so.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > He claims to have filed a claim of ownership to Luna, Venus, Mars,<BR>
> > and all other bodies in our solar system with the exception of Earth.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > According to his web site, the US government and the UN have failed to<BR>
> > challenge his claim within the legally-specified amount of time,<BR>
therefore<BR>
> > they have de facto given his claim legal standing. He was then allowed<BR>
to<BR>
> > copyright his claim in the US (or at least in California), which I do<BR>
not<BR>
> > understand. He also claims that relevant UN decisions about exploitation<BR>
> > of space failed to specifically prohibit private citizens from claiming<BR>
> > ownership, giving him a loophole to work with.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Is Mr. Hope, or his descendents, going to be very expensive for the US<BR>
> > government or space industries in the future? Or is there some unsound<BR>
> > interpretation of ownership laws that Mr. Hope is building this on?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Walt Smith<BR>
> Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
<BR>
Well according to Applied Politcs 101, Mr. Hope, should his claim prove in<BR>
any way valid, would cost the US government about $1.00 plus costs of<BR>
attendent equipment (ie the bio-organisms' charge for delivering that<BR>
3000ft/s projectile at him).<BR>
G.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 16:10:27 -0000<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Subject: re: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney wrote....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>It's written by Stuart Ferris with Derrick Jones and is now called<BR>
>Heaven and Earth. ISTR that it is hosted at www.downport.com but I<BR>
>haven't used it because I have a MacOS machine and can't be bothered<BR>
>to get Virtual PC.<BR>
<BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
Now hang on a minute there, Dom. I'm involved in the project yes, along with<BR>
quite a few others, and I was there practically at the start when WBD became<BR>
something more than what it was already. However I think I should point out:<BR>
I'm not responsible for writing it. That distinction (and the heartache and<BR>
hassle)<BR>
belongs squarely with Stuart. I won't take any credit, apart from what<BR>
Stuart<BR>
had credited me for...<BR>
<BR>
Oh that I wish I had.... I'm not fit to lace the boots etc etc.<BR>
<BR>
Just putting it straight, don't want to get any of the flak when it doesn't<BR>
work !!!<BR>
(Only kidding Stuart...)<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 16:14:59 -0000<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
There is a list of all the worlds in the Imperium (complete with names<BR>
taken from Jo Grant's work) in my Trading spreadsheet (Full version).<BR>
<BR>
The lightweight version (Just Domain of Deneb & some Foreven) is on<BR>
my website at the moment,and I'm in the process of fixing some potential<BR>
problems, and upgrading the full version as I write this...<BR>
<BR>
I'll post a direct link in the near future, when it's done<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 08:39:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
At 10:13 PM 2/27/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I always considered it was "field" based myself, i.e something like a<BR>
>biomagnetic field or Kirlian aura which is why it can later be extended  to<BR>
>other items and people (people can learn to extend and shape their Kirlian<BR>
>aura according to some articles I read on it), but doesn't normally take<BR>
>along things the teleporter doesn't want, like bits of the floor beneath the<BR>
>shoes.<BR>
<BR>
I like the aura idea myself. It give a good explanation of why you need to<BR>
practise hard to take simple things like clothing with you.<BR>
<BR>
My ruling for this game will be that anything fuly enclosed in the skin<BR>
will go along. The lock pick in a closed mouth will work, but she can't<BR>
jump out with a dagger between her teeth.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:31:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
>>disclaimer #1: I have absolutely /no/ earthly idea how long communications<BR>
>>would take from one coast of the USA to the other.<BR>
><BR>
> The famous Pony Express could make the run from Missouri to <BR>
> California in ten days, before it was surpassed by the telegraph.<BR>
> I don't know what the run from teh Capitol to Missouri was like, but<BR>
> it was probably only slightly less.<BR>
<BR>
It was likely *considerably* less. At that time they had both railroads<BR>
and telegraphs going as far as St. Louis.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:33:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps they are about as large as their government can cope with, and they<BR>
> don't want to have provinces so far removed from the center of government <BR>
> that it makes it harder for them to govern effectively.<BR>
><BR>
> Consider: if the telegraph and radio hadn't been invented until much latter<BR>
> than they were, how many countries would the USA have been.  The people of CA<BR>
> wouldn't want to be governed by a someone that was several weeks away.  Not<BR>
> without resorting to feudalisim of some sort at least.<BR>
<BR>
> disclaimer #1: I have absolutely /no/ earthly idea how long communications<BR>
> would take from one coast of the USA to the other.<BR>
> disclaimer #2: My knowledge of American history, particularly it's early<BR>
> history is very vauge, please excuse any snafu's.<BR>
<BR>
At the time of the conquest of California, it *was* weeks from the East<BR>
coast. You have to remember that from Maine to Florida isn't exactly a<BR>
"short walk" either. <BR>
<BR>
The fastest means of communication with California was to sail around<BR>
Cape Horn. I think the record is around 30 days for one of the old<BR>
style clipper ships.<BR>
<BR>
Cross country, it took a bit longer except for stuff like the pony<BR>
express (which didn't last very long).<BR>
<BR>
Do keep in mind that even if Spain had kept California, Nevada, and<BR>
the like, The US would *still* have owned the Oregon territory. So we'd<BR>
still have the long lag.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:40:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 23:57 26.02.00 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>>In a message dated 2/27/00 4:27:21 AM !!!First Boot!!!, csmith@ICDC.com <BR>
>>writes:<BR>
>><BR>
>><< sounds like you need atlas of the imperium...<BR>
>> way out of print >><BR>
>><BR>
>>I have that one, and it's only semi useful. It only lists major (population <BR>
>>over a billion I think; I don't have it in front of me..) worlds; the other <BR>
>>SQUARES (yeah, but the rows and colums are checkerboarded to visualize <BR>
>>connections) just list UWP data and leave the world names off. <BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind the fact that hexmaps and "staggered squares" such as the<BR>
Atlas and a few other books us are completely interchangeable. Distance<BR>
formulas etc are *exactly* the same.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:43:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 19:31 -0500 26/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> <BR>
> wrote:<BR>
>>There is a program called World Builder Deluxe written by one of the list<BR>
>>members. I haven't used it, since I still use Win3x, but it has received<BR>
>>rave reviews.<BR>
><BR>
> It's written by Stuart Ferris with Derrick Jones and is now called <BR>
> Heaven and Earth. ISTR that it is hosted at www.downport.com but I <BR>
> haven't used it because I have a MacOS machine and can't be bothered <BR>
> to get Virtual PC.<BR>
<BR>
Unless it requires Win 95, you should be able to pick up an old PC<BR>
capable of running it for next to nothing.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 18:16:05 -0000<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: World Builder Handbook??<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney wrote....<BR>
<BR>
>>It's written by Stuart Ferris with Derrick Jones and is now called<BR>
>>Heaven and Earth. ISTR that it is hosted at www.downport.com but I<BR>
>>haven't used it because I have a MacOS machine and can't be bothered<BR>
>>to get Virtual PC.<BR>
<BR>
>>Dom<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones wrote:-<BR>
<BR>
>Now hang on a minute there, Dom. I'm involved in the project yes, along<BR>
with<BR>
>quite a few others, and I was there practically at the start when WBD<BR>
became<BR>
>something more than what it was already. However I think I should point<BR>
out:<BR>
>I'm not responsible for writing it. That distinction (and the heartache and<BR>
>hassle)<BR>
>belongs squarely with Stuart. I won't take any credit, apart from what<BR>
>Stuart<BR>
>had credited me for...<BR>
<BR>
>Oh that I wish I had.... I'm not fit to lace the boots etc etc.<BR>
<BR>
>Just putting it straight, don't want to get any of the flak when it doesn't<BR>
>work !!!<BR>
>(Only kidding Stuart...)<BR>
<BR>
>Derrick<BR>
<BR>
LOL. At this moment in time I wish that Derrick had co-written the program.<BR>
I am currently bug hunting and not enjoying a minute of it. If Derrick had<BR>
been involved it would be him hunting the bugs and I would be sitting back<BR>
drinking a cup of tea.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:31:15 +0000<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Underwater habitation<BR>
<BR>
I'm currently detailing a cluster of worlds in Massilia (probably for<BR>
the BITS newsletter). One is a size 7, hydro 9 world which goes from pop<BR>
6, TL 13 in M0 to pop 10, TL 16 during the Rebellion:<BR>
<BR>
Dumeras            2308 A789653-D    Ni Ri              703    F4 V M4 D<BR>
Dumeras            2308 B789AAD-G  N Hi              A  103 Ma F4 V M4 D<BR>
<BR>
I would like to place a significant portion of the population in<BR>
undersea habitats, but know very little about how these would work.<BR>
_Nomads of the World Ocean_ mentions the existence of "sea bottom<BR>
complexes" but I haven't found anything more detailed.<BR>
<BR>
Any insights/ideas or pointers to sources (Traveller/SF/factual;<BR>
books/websites) gratefully received. I'm currently thinking in terms of<BR>
continental shelf habitats rather than ocean deeps but am open to<BR>
suggestions.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:55:18 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
At 07:29 27.02.00 +0000, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think of anything that would be<BR>
>better than the importance of personal responsibility.  It's all tied in very<BR>
>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the resultant communications<BR>
lag. <BR>
<BR>
But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system, would it? A republic can be<BR>
built on personal responsibilty even better, since a local politician that<BR>
doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a crisis will be removed after<BR>
his first election period. That's one thing much harder to do in a<BR>
feudalistic state...<BR>
<BR>
Hm. Perhaps this could even work on a very large scale like the Imperium<BR>
itsself?<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> IR (interstellar republic). My IR is human (Solomani<BR>
>> derived), psionic are unknown (probably due to some combination of genetic<BR>
>> and environmental effects).<BR>
 <BR>
>> First, of course, I see distance as a problem. I the 3I, this has been<BR>
>> solved by feudalism. For a republic, my answer is federalism:<BR>
[snip]<BR>
 <BR>
>> Second, of course, the 3I itsself (or local dukes of it) could see such a<BR>
>> gvernment as a threat to their own rule, or, even worse, try to make the IR<BR>
>> a client state of the Imperium, making it in fact unimportant who is<BR>
>> elected as top of the IR, as long as they do what they are told. My IR<BR>
>> solves this problem using a combined strategy: <BR>
><BR>
>I see this as being dependant on the personality of the Duke, naturally,<BR>
unless<BR>
>the Emperor has dictated a specific foreign policy with regards to this IR. <BR>
>It's not as if this government has just sprung up and the Duke needs to<BR>
decide<BR>
>policy now!  He has had, probably, years of intelligence data to work with<BR>
and<BR>
>at least some sort of comment from the Emperor regarding them.<BR>
<BR>
True. I hadn't thought of that the Imperium surely has some very large<BR>
files about the IR.<BR>
<BR>
>This inteligence data will have been processed and would include some sort of<BR>
>indicator regarding how large the IR could grow and still function with it's<BR>
>present form of government.  The ratio of current size with this<BR>
theoretically<BR>
>stable maximum would count somewhat in the Duke consideration of their<BR>
>expansionistic threat.<BR>
<BR>
Hm. To what conclusion would they come? The IR I had in mind is almost as<BR>
old as the 3I. My conclusions regarding its present size were mainly based<BR>
on manpower- they were a split faction from another Solomani-derived empire<BR>
in that sector who fled after losing a civil war during the Long Night.<BR>
First, they settled a single world and stayed there for a few centuries.<BR>
After having settled several other worlds over the centuries, conflict<BR>
broke out between these colonies, a war that bombed them back to just TL9<BR>
on the most fortunate worlds. Others lost even more technology. Slowly<BR>
recovering, some of their traders and belters finally encountered scouts<BR>
from the 3I. Shortly thereafter, the world's mostly republican governments<BR>
assembled and founded the IR to maintain their sovereignty against this new<BR>
illiberal empire. Since then, the have grown slowly but steadily- five<BR>
worlds in a century or so. Their constitution theoretically allows for an<BR>
"infinite" number of member planets, though this is never emphasized. Their<BR>
TL is C by 1115.<BR>
<BR>
>> -First, they have no "missionary" ambitions, or at least they claim so.<BR>
>> "What is good for us is probably not usable for all sophonts, not even all<BR>
>> humaniti." <BR>
><BR>
>Perhaps they are about as large as their government can cope with, and they<BR>
>don't want to have provinces so far removed from the center of government<BR>
that<BR>
>it makes it harder for them to govern effectively.<BR>
<BR>
>Consider: if the telegraph and radio hadn't been invented until much latter<BR>
>than they were, how many countries would the USA have been.  The people of CA<BR>
>wouldn't want to be governed by a someone that was several weeks away.  Not<BR>
>without resorting to feudalisim of some sort at least.<BR>
><BR>
>disclaimer #1: I have absolutely /no/ earthly idea how long communications<BR>
>would take from one coast of the USA to the other.<BR>
<BR>
Well, let's assume that you use some kind of Xboat network- err... Pony<BR>
express.<BR>
With this network being not too dense to be not too expensive, I assume a<BR>
message could travel at an average speed of 20 km per hour. From California<BR>
to Washington it's (looking it up) about 4000 km. That would mean 200<BR>
hours. For the regular traveller, double to triple this time. (This is not<BR>
very exact, but now we've got an idea on the nature of the actual numbers.) <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, a "comm" lag of two weeks (one week to the capital, one week back<BR>
to the place of action) means that not the central government can decide on<BR>
a local crisis (like an attack by a neighbouring country), but local<BR>
authorities have to. Just like in the Imperium. All the central government<BR>
can do is aprove or disapprove the decision that has already been made. <BR>
<BR>
But now there is one thing I ask myself (and all of you): What prevents<BR>
this "local authority" to be elected by the local population?<BR>
<BR>
>disclaimer #2: My knowledge of American history, particularly it's early<BR>
>history is very vauge, please excuse any snafu's.<BR>
<BR>
You say this to *me*? "*.de" is Germany. All I know about U.S. history is<BR>
that some British colonists recently decided to run their own show...<BR>
:-)<BR>
Okay, it's a little bit more... <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:01:12 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Feb 00, at 9:33, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Do keep in mind that even if Spain had kept California, Nevada, and<BR>
> the like, The US would *still* have owned the Oregon territory. So we'd<BR>
> still have the long lag.<BR>
<BR>
Unless the Birtish had kept that. And then we can speculate on the war <BR>
of 1812, what would've happened if Napoleon hadn't sold the land he <BR>
extorted off the Spanish to the US, etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:01:12 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
On 27 Feb 00, at 10:09, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> > <BR>
> > If you want M1100 it may be worth hunting out the Galactic software as I<BR>
> > believe people have generated the data files for M1100, and that you can<BR>
> > print maps. Again, this is from listening to TML discussions as I don't<BR>
> > have Windows which it needs,<BR>
> <BR>
> Galactic is a _very_ worthwhile program. I haven't tried printing maps<BR>
> with it, but it not only comes with a number of canonical sectors (in<BR>
> several different milieux), but also generates variant sectors for you.<BR>
> You can download Galactic 2.4 from:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/8023/<BR>
> <BR>
> It runs under DOS (or in a DOS window under Win9x).  I don't know<BR>
> whether WinNTie can run it.<BR>
<BR>
It does, and without a hitch (the only thing is that you don't seem to <BR>
get those little beeps).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:56:26 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Underwater habitation<BR>
<BR>
The book "Blueheart", but Alison Sinclair, dealt with a waterworld and it's<BR>
adaptive first settlers battling with the colonial admistration that wants<BR>
to terraform it into a clone of Earth.  Good book IMO, and it may help you.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of John Wood<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 4:31 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Underwater habitation<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I'm currently detailing a cluster of worlds in Massilia (probably for<BR>
> the BITS newsletter). One is a size 7, hydro 9 world which goes from pop<BR>
> 6, TL 13 in M0 to pop 10, TL 16 during the Rebellion:<BR>
><BR>
> Dumeras            2308 A789653-D    Ni Ri              703    F4 V M4 D<BR>
> Dumeras            2308 B789AAD-G  N Hi              A  103 Ma F4 V M4 D<BR>
><BR>
> I would like to place a significant portion of the population in<BR>
> undersea habitats, but know very little about how these would work.<BR>
> _Nomads of the World Ocean_ mentions the existence of "sea bottom<BR>
> complexes" but I haven't found anything more detailed.<BR>
><BR>
> Any insights/ideas or pointers to sources (Traveller/SF/factual;<BR>
> books/websites) gratefully received. I'm currently thinking in terms of<BR>
> continental shelf habitats rather than ocean deeps but am open to<BR>
> suggestions.<BR>
><BR>
> Cheers,<BR>
><BR>
> John<BR>
> John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
> IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
> Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:35:59 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: who owns the moon?<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 26 Feb 2000 18:06:29 -0800 (PST), Kyle Schuant wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> It's a great way to make<BR>
> money, and I guess some of the owners, like his Star<BR>
> Trek cast members he mentions, well, they're willing<BR>
> to pay a few bucks for humour value.<BR>
<BR>
Who said any of the ST cast members *paid* anything?  IIRC, it simply says<BR>
that they are "among 250 famous celebrity lunar property owners", or<BR>
something to the effect.  The site owner could simply be reserving lunar<BR>
real estate in their names-- or even giving it away.  That way, he can<BR>
claim that certain famous individuals "own" lunar property-- and you should<BR>
too!  :)<BR>
<BR>
Looking around my desk, I could say that Jeri Ryan "owns" my cell phone.<BR>
If a Motorola i1000 is good enough for the Borg, it's good enough for<BR>
everybody!  I'm taking orders now...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
11th Commandment: covet not thy neighbour's Pentium.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:36:06 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 09:58:56 -0000, Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As anyone who keeps track of Heaven & Earth's progress at my website will<BR>
> know the anticipated release date of the program was going to be the 28th<BR>
> February 2000.<BR>
> <BR>
> The program is currently about 99% complete and I am hunting down the final<BR>
> few bugs in the program. However, some of them are proving to be quite<BR>
> difficult to resolve so, at the moment the program will be released when it<BR>
> is ready.<BR>
<BR>
Don't worry about it, Stuart.  You are in no way obligated to meet the<BR>
February 28th deadline, any more than you are obligated to spend so much of<BR>
your free time creating Heaven & Earth, period.  It'll be ready when it's<BR>
ready. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
11th Commandment: covet not thy neighbour's Pentium.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:40:10 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:31:15 +0000, John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
>I would like to place a significant portion of the population in<BR>
>undersea habitats, but know very little about how these would work.<BR>
>_Nomads of the World Ocean_ mentions the existence of "sea bottom<BR>
>complexes" but I haven't found anything more detailed.<BR>
><BR>
>Any insights/ideas or pointers to sources (Traveller/SF/factual;<BR>
>books/websites) gratefully received. I'm currently thinking in terms of<BR>
>continental shelf habitats rather than ocean deeps but am open to<BR>
>suggestions.<BR>
><BR>
You may want to find "The Millennial Project" by Marshall T. Savage.<BR>
It has a chapter that details sea-based habitats, mainly on the<BR>
surface but also underneath. There is a web site about it at<BR>
http://www.luf.org. Most of the color pictures from the book can be<BR>
found at the web site.<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:50:11 -0500<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 10:12:52<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Subject: CT psionic question<BR>
> <BR>
> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
> <BR>
> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
> <BR>
> Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not come up at<BR>
> the table, but they are also possibilities. How about swallowing something?<BR>
> Unless inexperienced teleporters leave behind the contents of their<BR>
> digestive tracts, and object in the stomach should come along and could be<BR>
> recovered by vomiting. (This would explain the Psionic Surpressions,<BR>
> though.)<BR>
><BR>
	My take on this, since we are dealing with Psionics, would be what is<BR>
the person's self image like. The teleport power allows moving "me" what<BR>
does the player/character perceive as "me". Characters with good self<BR>
image could haul along more "stuff" attached to their bodies as "me".<BR>
Characters with long attachments to rings, bracelets, etc. would<BR>
probably bring them along as well. <BR>
	I realize putting self image questions to 12/13 year olds, particularly<BR>
girls can be a little tough, but is one way of approaching the teleport<BR>
issue. <BR>
<BR>
	IMTU, there is an alternate teleport rules, where the Teleport psionic<BR>
can move 10 kg per point of power, but they have to include their body<BR>
mass first. This allow lighter characters (and children) to teleport<BR>
earlier, and with more stuff. This does have it's own limitations. <BR>
<BR>
"I used to be able to teleport, but ever since I gained 5 kg I can't<BR>
manage it."<BR>
<BR>
or<BR>
<BR>
"If I can loose another 2 kg's, I can teleport with the Combat Rifle!!"		<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> - --<BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry  ~'+#@#+'~  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>    http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
> "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts. These<BR>
>  same thoughts people this little World"<BR>
> - - stained glass window in the Winchester Mystery House.<BR>
> <BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1974<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1975</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	2/27/00 9:12:37 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 28 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1975<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Trading Spreadsheet updated.<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
RE: Underwater habitation<BR>
Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1974<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Betting on the Races<BR>
Trading Spreadsheet.<BR>
RE: Betting on the Races<BR>
CT Reprints<BR>
CT Reprints<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:31:14 -0000<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Trading Spreadsheet updated.<BR>
<BR>
Hi,<BR>
<BR>
for those of you that are interested, I've updated the trading<BR>
spreadsheet on my webpage. All it does is get rid of all the<BR>
dice rolling from Trading. (some 100+ die rolls per world / week)<BR>
<BR>
Improvements are as follows.<BR>
<BR>
1) fixed a few little bugs<BR>
2) re-created the Imperium wide version (contains UPP's and Names for<BR>
about 13000 worlds in the Imperium and beyond.)<BR>
3) Completed the Trader 'Expert System', giving a list of markets within<BR>
3 parsecs (it's what's required in my game) and the base profit margin<BR>
on each world wrt the source world.<BR>
4) Generally tidied it up / made it smaller / more efficient.<BR>
<BR>
Future plans include:<BR>
Allowing user to link to Stuart's WBD (H&E in future) files, particularly<BR>
system maps and mainword description etc.<BR>
Porting the whole lot into VB / Access (quite a bit of work required there.)<BR>
Allowing user to add items to and remove them from the cargo manifest.<BR>
<BR>
It requires MS Excel to run (On the PC, unless someone with a Mac can<BR>
prove otherwise - but it's zipped, not stuffed.) It was designed under Excel<BR>
97<BR>
but I can provide other versions if required.<BR>
<BR>
Direct link to my Traveller page is :<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar/indextrav.htm<BR>
<BR>
Mail me off list if you have any queries (like how to load the Analysis<BR>
packs)<BR>
<BR>
Cheers<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:36:59 GMT<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
> <BR>
> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
<BR>
Having seen the other replies, I'd ask this question:<BR>
<BR>
If you are a level 5 teleporter wearing clothes, can you teleport<BR>
away, leaving your clothes behind or does wearing the clothes<BR>
confuse your abilities, forcing you to take them off first?<BR>
<BR>
In either case, I'd go for you can't take the lock picks, nor<BR>
can you wear body paint.<BR>
<BR>
The difference between clothed and unclothed isn't enough to<BR>
be volume, nor can it be the complexity of what you are teleporting<BR>
<BR>
The handwave I'd use is that since teleporting requires lots of<BR>
mental focus to get the right destination and to end up in one piece,<BR>
trying to take things with you is too distracting.<BR>
<BR>
This suggests that your PC should be required to remove all distractions<BR>
(eg clothes and electronic lock picks) before teleporting. It might<BR>
also mean that they will find it harder to concentrate enough to teleport<BR>
between places crowded with people. Time to dash into the nearest phone<BR>
box!<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, the image of the evil NPC swinging their sword at<BR>
the character, only for an unoccupied pile of clothes to drop to the<BR>
floor, leaving them to stare in confusion does have a certain attraction.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Laser Communications Division<BR>
"For when your message must get through"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 00:06:48 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Underwater habitation<BR>
<BR>
At 15:40 -0500 27/2/00, Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
>The book "Blueheart", but Alison Sinclair, dealt with a waterworld and it's<BR>
>adaptive first settlers battling with the colonial admistration that wants<BR>
>to terraform it into a clone of Earth.  Good book IMO, and it may help you.<BR>
<BR>
It's a cracking book. I really enjoyed it.<BR>
<BR>
You may also want to look at Blue Planet (another SF RPG) which is <BR>
set on such a world.<BR>
<BR>
There was also a WD adventure set underwater IIRC, maybe on a variant Vanejen?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:42:53 +0000<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
<BR>
At 12:31 PM 2/27/00 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>I'm currently detailing a cluster of worlds in Massilia (probably for<BR>
>the BITS newsletter). One is a size 7, hydro 9 world which goes from pop<BR>
>6, TL 13 in M0 to pop 10, TL 16 during the Rebellion:<BR>
><BR>
>Dumeras            2308 A789653-D    Ni Ri              703    F4 V M4 D<BR>
>Dumeras            2308 B789AAD-G  N Hi              A  103 Ma F4 V M4 D<BR>
><BR>
>I would like to place a significant portion of the population in<BR>
>undersea habitats, but know very little about how these would work.<BR>
>_Nomads of the World Ocean_ mentions the existence of "sea bottom<BR>
>complexes" but I haven't found anything more detailed.<BR>
><BR>
>Any insights/ideas or pointers to sources (Traveller/SF/factual;<BR>
>books/websites) gratefully received. I'm currently thinking in terms of<BR>
>continental shelf habitats rather than ocean deeps but am open to<BR>
>suggestions.<BR>
<BR>
Issue #5 of The Traveller Chronicle had an adventure entitled "The Mermani<BR>
Descent" by Bill White set in an undersea habitat/research facility<BR>
complete with deckplans in the centerfold done by myself (yes, tooting my<BR>
own horn :)<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 19:44:31 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>> The famous Pony Express could make the run from Missouri to <BR>
>> California in ten days, before it was surpassed by the telegraph.<BR>
>> I don't know what the run from teh Capitol to Missouri was like, but<BR>
>> it was probably only slightly less.<BR>
><BR>
>It was likely *considerably* less. At that time they had both railroads<BR>
>and telegraphs going as far as St. Louis.<BR>
<BR>
True, I was thinking an express rider from the capitol to Missouri...<BR>
if we consider the same infrastructure throughout, just no telegraph,<BR>
the coast-to-coast communication delay (express mail by train on a <BR>
transcontinental line) should be even shorter.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 18:05:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Eric T. or Maryann C. Holmes" <holmberg@thuntek.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1974<BR>
<BR>
Help!<BR>
<BR>
It seems that I am receiving only a portion of the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Is there any way that the list manager can retransmit the<BR>
missing TML issues?<BR>
<BR>
Missing in Action<BR>
<BR>
#1958,59,60,65,68,72,73<BR>
<BR>
Eric <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:24:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
At 01:36 PM 2/27/2000 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
>> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
>> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
>> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
<BR>
>If you are a level 5 teleporter wearing clothes, can you teleport<BR>
>away, leaving your clothes behind or does wearing the clothes<BR>
>confuse your abilities, forcing you to take them off first?<BR>
><BR>
>In either case, I'd go for you can't take the lock picks, nor<BR>
>can you wear body paint.<BR>
<BR>
A sort of "I know my body, anything else is a distraction" idea?<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, the image of the evil NPC swinging their sword at<BR>
>the character, only for an unoccupied pile of clothes to drop to the<BR>
>floor, leaving them to stare in confusion does have a certain attraction.<BR>
<BR>
That sounds familar...<BR>
<BR>
I've always wanted to see an alternate ending to SW where Obi-Wan does his<BR>
"strike me down" speech, Vaders swings, and Obi-wan goes down in two equal<BR>
halves, gasping "damn, I was sure that would work..."<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 17:25:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
At 12:36 PM 2/27/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Don't worry about it, Stuart.  You are in no way obligated to meet the<BR>
>February 28th deadline, any more than you are obligated to spend so much of<BR>
>your free time creating Heaven & Earth, period.  It'll be ready when it's<BR>
>ready. :)<BR>
<BR>
Ah. The ACQ model deadline. :)<BR>
<BR>
(The rumble of penguin feet is heard...)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 19:49:07 -0600 (CST)<BR>
From: houstonshocky@webtv.net<BR>
Subject: Betting on the Races<BR>
<BR>
As is well known, in this thirtieth century of ours, space travel is<BR>
fearfully dull and time-consuming. In search of diversion, many crew<BR>
Members defy the quarantine restrictions and pick up pets from the<BR>
various habitable worlds they explore. <BR>
<BR>
Jim Sloane had a rockette, which he called Teddy. It just sat there,<BR>
looking like a rock, but sometimes It lifted a lower edge and sucked in<BR>
powdered sugar. That was all it ate. No one ever saw it move, but every<BR>
once in a while, it wasn't quite where people thought it was. There was<BR>
a theory that it moved when no one was looking. <BR>
<BR>
Bob Laverty had a heli-worm he called Dolly. It was green and carried on<BR>
photosynthesis. Sometimes it moved to get into better light and when it<BR>
did so it coiled its wormlike body and inched along very slowly like a<BR>
turning helix. <BR>
<BR>
One day, Jim Sloane challenged Bob Laverty to a race. " My Teddy," he<BR>
said,<BR>
"can beat your Dolly." <BR>
<BR>
"Your Teddy," scoffed Laverty, "doesn't move." <BR>
<BR>
"Bet!" said Sloane. <BR>
<BR>
The whole crew got into the act. Even the captain risked half a credit.<BR>
Everyone bet on Dolly. At least she moved. <BR>
<BR>
Jim Sloane covered it all. He had been saving his salary through three<BR>
trips and he put every millicredit of it on Teddy. <BR>
<BR>
The race started at one end of the grand salon. At the other end, a heap<BR>
of sugar had been placed for Teddy and a spotlight for Dolly. Dolly<BR>
formed a coil at once and began to spiral its way very slowly toward the<BR>
light. The watching crew cheered it on. <BR>
Teddy just sat there without budging. <BR>
"Sugar, Teddy, Sugar," said Sloane, pointing. Teddy did not move. It<BR>
looked more like a rock than ever, but Sloane did not seem concerned. <BR>
<BR>
Finally, when Dolly had spiraled halfway across the salon, Jim Sloane<BR>
said casually to his rockette, "if you don't get out there, Teddy, I'm<BR>
going to get a hammer and chip you into pebbles." <BR>
<BR>
That was when people first discovered that rockettes could read minds.<BR>
That was also when people first discovered that rockettes could<BR>
teleport. <BR>
<BR>
Sloane had no sooner made his threat when Teddy simply disappeared from<BR>
his place and reappeared on top of the sugar. <BR>
Sloane won, of course, and he counted his winnings slowly and<BR>
luxuriously. <BR>
<BR>
Laverty said bitterly, "You knew the damn thing could teleport." <BR>
<BR>
"No, I didn't," said Sloane, "but I knew he would win. it was a sure<BR>
thing." <BR>
<BR>
"How come?" <BR>
<BR>
"It's an old saying everyone knows, 'Sloane's Teddy wins the race.' " <BR>
<BR>
(By Isaac Asimov)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 02:09:29 -0000<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Trading Spreadsheet.<BR>
<BR>
David / other TML Members<BR>
<BR>
sorry about the problem with my upload of the full version<BR>
of the spreadsheet. The problem has now been corrected, <BR>
and was a minor oversight on my part (copying and pasting <BR>
code!!)<BR>
<BR>
thanks for your understanding. You can download the new version now.<BR>
from the same place..<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 18:29:24 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Betting on the Races<BR>
<BR>
>>>GROOOAAAANNNNNN!!!!!<<<<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> houstonshocky@webtv.net<BR>
> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 5:49 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Betting on the Races<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> As is well known, in this thirtieth century of ours, space travel is<BR>
> fearfully dull and time-consuming. In search of diversion, many crew<BR>
> Members defy the quarantine restrictions and pick up pets from the<BR>
> various habitable worlds they explore. <BR>
> <BR>
> Jim Sloane had a rockette, which he called Teddy. It just sat there,<BR>
> looking like a rock, but sometimes It lifted a lower edge and sucked in<BR>
> powdered sugar. That was all it ate. No one ever saw it move, but every<BR>
> once in a while, it wasn't quite where people thought it was. There was<BR>
> a theory that it moved when no one was looking. <BR>
> <BR>
> Bob Laverty had a heli-worm he called Dolly. It was green and carried on<BR>
> photosynthesis. Sometimes it moved to get into better light and when it<BR>
> did so it coiled its wormlike body and inched along very slowly like a<BR>
> turning helix. <BR>
> <BR>
> One day, Jim Sloane challenged Bob Laverty to a race. " My Teddy," he<BR>
> said,<BR>
> "can beat your Dolly." <BR>
> <BR>
> "Your Teddy," scoffed Laverty, "doesn't move." <BR>
> <BR>
> "Bet!" said Sloane. <BR>
> <BR>
> The whole crew got into the act. Even the captain risked half a credit.<BR>
> Everyone bet on Dolly. At least she moved. <BR>
> <BR>
> Jim Sloane covered it all. He had been saving his salary through three<BR>
> trips and he put every millicredit of it on Teddy. <BR>
> <BR>
> The race started at one end of the grand salon. At the other end, a heap<BR>
> of sugar had been placed for Teddy and a spotlight for Dolly. Dolly<BR>
> formed a coil at once and began to spiral its way very slowly toward the<BR>
> light. The watching crew cheered it on. <BR>
> Teddy just sat there without budging. <BR>
> "Sugar, Teddy, Sugar," said Sloane, pointing. Teddy did not move. It<BR>
> looked more like a rock than ever, but Sloane did not seem concerned. <BR>
> <BR>
> Finally, when Dolly had spiraled halfway across the salon, Jim Sloane<BR>
> said casually to his rockette, "if you don't get out there, Teddy, I'm<BR>
> going to get a hammer and chip you into pebbles." <BR>
> <BR>
> That was when people first discovered that rockettes could read minds.<BR>
> That was also when people first discovered that rockettes could<BR>
> teleport. <BR>
> <BR>
> Sloane had no sooner made his threat when Teddy simply disappeared from<BR>
> his place and reappeared on top of the sugar. <BR>
> Sloane won, of course, and he counted his winnings slowly and<BR>
> luxuriously. <BR>
> <BR>
> Laverty said bitterly, "You knew the damn thing could teleport." <BR>
> <BR>
> "No, I didn't," said Sloane, "but I knew he would win. it was a sure<BR>
> thing." <BR>
> <BR>
> "How come?" <BR>
> <BR>
> "It's an old saying everyone knows, 'Sloane's Teddy wins the race.' " <BR>
> <BR>
> (By Isaac Asimov)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 19:51:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net><BR>
Subject: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Well, the CT reprints came on Saturday! My only prior experience with<BR>
that style of character generation was T4, and I must say that I<BR>
definitely prefer CT. So, quick question... Is there a free program<BR>
anywhere out there that manages CT character generation?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Andrew<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 19:58:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net><BR>
Subject: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, one other question. Mercenary (book 4), page 43 notes some<BR>
errata to the equipment lists in book 3. It isn't possible to<BR>
determine (due to the way it's worded) whether or not these changes<BR>
have been applied for the Reprint. Anyone know the answer? Does the<BR>
reprint contain corrected numbers, or do we need to apply the errata<BR>
as listed in book 4?<BR>
<BR>
Andrew<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:16:12 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Note the dates of the books.  The Book 3 version in the reprints has a 1981<BR>
print date and is the Second Edition.  Book 4 was published in 1978 and no<BR>
further editions were produced.  If you have the 1977 edition of Books 1, 2<BR>
& 3, these corrections apply.<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, one other question. Mercenary (book 4), page 43 notes some<BR>
> errata to the equipment lists in book 3. It isn't possible to<BR>
> determine (due to the way it's worded) whether or not these changes<BR>
> have been applied for the Reprint. Anyone know the answer? Does the<BR>
> reprint contain corrected numbers, or do we need to apply the errata<BR>
> as listed in book 4?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:25:08 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
On 02/27/00 at 07:58 PM,  "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry, one other question. Mercenary (book 4), page 43 notes some errata<BR>
>to the equipment lists in book 3. <BR>
<BR>
Another piece of errata in CT reprint 1, and this is a minor one, is<BR>
a wrong page number in Book 1.  It's in the description of the<BR>
Gunnery skill (p19) and it refers to page 13, however that's 13 in<BR>
the original numbering, not in the revised, in the revised it is<BR>
page 17.<BR>
<BR>
Say, we need a nice acronym for this thing...how about CTR1, for<BR>
Classic Traveller Reprint 1?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 21:52:31 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Batishko wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, the CT reprints came on Saturday! My only prior experience with<BR>
> that style of character generation was T4, and I must say that I<BR>
> definitely prefer CT. So, quick question... Is there a free program<BR>
> anywhere out there that manages CT character generation?<BR>
<BR>
Well, it would seem that I beat everyone to the punch on posting this. <BR>
WOO-HOO!  Anyway, for CT character generation IAW Book 1, try Stuart<BR>
Ferris' program, downloadable from:<BR>
<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/characte.htm<BR>
<BR>
(AFAICT, his program doesn't support Book 4-6 chargen.  But, for NPCs<BR>
and such, it doesn't much matter, does it?) ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:03:40 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
On 02/27/00 at 07:51 PM,  "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, the CT reprints came on Saturday! My only prior experience with<BR>
>that style of character generation was T4, and I must say that I<BR>
>definitely prefer CT. So, quick question... Is there a free program<BR>
>anywhere out there that manages CT character generation?<BR>
<BR>
Now you know what all the fuss is about! ;-><BR>
<BR>
I finally dug out the house rules I used for Character Generation<BR>
back when all that was out were the first 3 books.  It gave numbers<BR>
of skill levels that I liked better than straight basic CT, was<BR>
quick and easy and still had a lot of flavor.  With a couple of<BR>
minor updates here it is...<BR>
<BR>
1.  4 Skills EACH term<BR>
<BR>
    a.  Roll for 1 from<BR>
<BR>
        1. Personal Development Table<BR>
<BR>
        2. Services Skills Table <BR>
<BR>
        3. Advanced Education Table (or 8+ Advanced Education)<BR>
<BR>
    b.  Pick 1 free skill (hobby, focused, life pursuit) with GM<BR>
        approval<BR>
<BR>
    c.  In addition take Rank and Service Skills as shown, but *not*<BR>
        promotion skills.<BR>
 <BR>
2.  College in Basic CharGen<BR>
<BR>
    a.  A four year term can be taken *once* during CharGen, before<BR>
        or during the career, and after this term the character<BR>
        returns to their normal career path<BR>
<BR>
    b.  The character recieves 4 skill levels in one of the<BR>
        following clusters.:<BR>
<BR>
        1.  Business:  Admin, Broker, Trader, Law <BR>
<BR>
        2.  Science:  Archaeology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics<BR>
<BR>
        3.  Humanities:  Art, History, Language, Robotics<BR>
<BR>
    c.  Pick 1 skill level for you non-curricular activities    <BR>
<BR>
    d.  No mustering out benefit<BR>
<BR>
3.  Survival, failure means injury, not death.<BR>
<BR>
4.  Mustering Out Benefits<BR>
<BR>
    a.  Services with Ranks<BR>
<BR>
        1.  1 Roll for each term + 1 Roll for each rank gained<BR>
<BR>
        2.  Rolls for ships do *not* give the character multiple<BR>
            ships<BR>
<BR>
    b.  Services without Ranks<BR>
<BR>
        1.  2 Rolls for each term<BR>
<BR>
        2.  Rolls for ships do not give the character multiple ships<BR>
        <BR>
5.  Maximum Skill Levels<BR>
<BR>
    a.  After Career Generation is over add INT, EDU and SOC giving<BR>
        Max Skills<BR>
<BR>
    b.  If the total number of skill levels for the character is<BR>
        greater than Max Skills, reduce skill levels (at player<BR>
        option) until the total number of levels equals Max Skills<BR>
        <BR>
Try this with the basic tables in B1 or "Citizens of the Imperium",<BR>
I think you'll like it.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:18:15 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> I finally dug out the house rules I used for Character Generation<BR>
> back when all that was out were the first 3 books.  It gave numbers<BR>
> of skill levels that I liked better than straight basic CT, was<BR>
> quick and easy and still had a lot of flavor.  With a couple of<BR>
> minor updates here it is...<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> 2.  College in Basic CharGen<BR>
> <BR>
>     a.  A four year term can be taken *once* during CharGen, before<BR>
>         or during the career, and after this term the character<BR>
>         returns to their normal career path<BR>
> <BR>
>     b.  The character recieves 4 skill levels in one of the<BR>
>         following clusters.:<BR>
> <BR>
>         1.  Business:  Admin, Broker, Trader, Law<BR>
> <BR>
>         2.  Science:  Archaeology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics<BR>
> <BR>
>         3.  Humanities:  Art, History, Language, Robotics<BR>
> <BR>
>     c.  Pick 1 skill level for you non-curricular activities<BR>
> <BR>
>     d.  No mustering out benefit<BR>
<BR>
Were I to use this system, I would allow the college term to raise the<BR>
character's Edu up to +2, in lieu of two of the skills awarded.  Other<BR>
than that, your modifications for character careers seem to be<BR>
reasonable for CT.<BR>
> <BR>
> 3.  Survival, failure means injury, not death.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, although what one service might consider a career-ending<BR>
disability might not be so in another service.  I'd allow enlistment in<BR>
a new branch, at a penalty of 2 pips.<BR>
> <BR>
> 4.  Mustering Out Benefits<BR>
> <BR>
>     a.  Services with Ranks<BR>
> <BR>
>         1.  1 Roll for each term + 1 Roll for each rank gained<BR>
> <BR>
>         2.  Rolls for ships do *not* give the character multiple<BR>
>             ships<BR>
> <BR>
>     b.  Services without Ranks<BR>
> <BR>
>         1.  2 Rolls for each term<BR>
> <BR>
>         2.  Rolls for ships do not give the character multiple ships<BR>
<BR>
I assume that multiple ship results still allow Merchant characters to<BR>
gain ships with payments made in ten-year increments, as per Book 1. <BR>
For other careers that award ships (I'm just guessing about Citizens of<BR>
the Imperium careers, since I don't have that book), I would rule as<BR>
follows:<BR>
<BR>
1.  Scouts: I would allow multiple ship benefits to serve as a permanent<BR>
DM to avoid mobilization (for instance, a character who earned the Type<BR>
S benefit three times would have a DM of 2 to avoid mobilization for an<BR>
emergency).  Naturally, such characters wold still need to be available<BR>
for debriefings, at the pleasure of the IISS.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Nobles: Nobles who achieve multiple ship benefits could upgrade<BR>
their yachts, at a cost/value of one yacht per award (they would still<BR>
gain only one ship), with superior yachts designed under either Book 2<BR>
or HG2 rules (depending on the preferred design system of the referee). <BR>
(BTW, I prefer a Far Trader as a yacht, with the cargo bay fitted out as<BR>
a ballroom.)<BR>
<BR>
3.  Scientists: Scientists who receive multiple Lab ships instead<BR>
receive a +1 Edu per extra ship.  Alternately, if the Lab ship normally<BR>
comes with strings attached, the Scientist in question would get a DM of<BR>
1 per additional award to ignore the stipulations.<BR>
<BR>
4.  Pirates: Pirates who receive multiple Corsairs instead would gain a<BR>
permanent bonus DM of 1 in determining loyalty of subordinates, as long<BR>
as they own the ship gained on the first roll.  (Note that pirates who<BR>
gain additional ships in their careers would maintain this bonus,<BR>
until/unless they lose the original ship.  Thus, the Dread Pirate<BR>
Westley could capture any number of ships, and employ them as corsairs<BR>
under his control, so long as he maintained control of the pirate ship<BR>
_Revenge_.  Should he lose control of _Revenge_, he would lose any bonus<BR>
DMs gained while mustering out.)<BR>
<BR>
If any other careers have a Ship benefit, then additional rolls<BR>
resulting in multiple Ship benefits should be handled in a manner<BR>
similar to the above-mentioned careers.<BR>
<BR>
Bottom line:  No character can have control of more than one ship as a<BR>
result of mustering out.  However, additional ship benefits from<BR>
mustering out do provide some gain to the character.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1975<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1976</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, February 28 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1976<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
RE: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
RE: Betting on the Races<BR>
Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: CT reprints, character generation<BR>
Terran Battleships<BR>
Odd World Concept<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
RE: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
Re: MT Ship design questions?<BR>
RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
K'KREE CHARACTER GENERATION<BR>
Technology Marches On:  Nano-Tech Breakthrough<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 22:25:04 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <tml@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
CTR1 has already provided my a source of amusement. I stopped playing<BR>
Traveller seriously before Book 8 came out, so I never got a chance to read<BR>
it. On p. 18, we see that "It is impossible to discuss robots without also<BR>
discussing the computer hardware and software that makes the robot brain and<BR>
artificial intelligence (AI) possible." Excerpts from the computer<BR>
technology timeline include:<BR>
<BR>
TL8: SIMD/MIMD architectures, and other parallel architectures. The Pentium<BR>
is definately here.<BR>
<BR>
TL9: Non-volatile memory (like flash memory)<BR>
<BR>
TL10: Voice transcription within a "domain of discourse" (like IBM's Via<BR>
Voice, a great product)<BR>
<BR>
Primitive experiments in synaptic procesing also take place at TL10, but I<BR>
will assume for not that this means more than fuzzy logic, neural networks,<BR>
genetic algorithms, and other modern-day stuff.<BR>
<BR>
"Computers at this time can be made to understand and respond to basic<BR>
commands, consisting of simple sentences." Maybe we're here also, or almost<BR>
here. My wife can now pick up the phone and say "Computer, call Luther," and<BR>
my cell phone will ring. My 3-year old can say "Computer, play Ham Game,"<BR>
and Green Eggs and Ham starts.<BR>
<BR>
TL14: clock speeds reach their upper electronic limit (coming soon - well<BR>
within my life)<BR>
<BR>
Finally something to taunt serious canonites about. Maybe it's just a game<BR>
after all.<BR>
<BR>
What TL are we at today??<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:11:29 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
> TL8: SIMD/MIMD architectures, and other parallel architectures.<BR>
> The Pentium is definately here.<BR>
<BR>
Not exactly, the Intel iPSC/860 hypercube and the Paragon are MIMD, but your<BR>
bog standard Pentium isn't<BR>
<BR>
> TL9: Non-volatile memory (like flash memory)<BR>
<BR>
Definitely<BR>
<BR>
> TL10: Voice transcription within a "domain of discourse" (like IBM's Via<BR>
> Voice, a great product)<BR>
<BR>
This was actualy achieved back in the late eighties. Look at some old<BR>
Carnegie-Mellon papers on the Geophysics system. IBM's Via Voice is a step<BR>
beyond "voice transcription within a domain of discourse", it's far more<BR>
generic than that, and is closer to any user, any subject, recognition.<BR>
<BR>
> Primitive experiments in synaptic procesing also take place at TL10, but I<BR>
> will assume for not that this means more than fuzzy logic, neural<BR>
> networks, genetic algorithms, and other modern-day stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Although one could easily assume that it does mean this. I would call<BR>
"primitive" what they were doing with Alvinn's automatic driving module and<BR>
the face recognition work in the late eighties. What's out there now is not<BR>
really primitive, it just isn't neccessarily commodity level yet.<BR>
<BR>
Though some things like autofocus cameras, and OCR technology are.<BR>
<BR>
> "Computers at this time can be made to understand and respond to basic<BR>
> commands, consisting of simple sentences." Maybe we're here also,<BR>
> or almost here.<BR>
<BR>
The limit to this phrase is your definition of "understand". They can<BR>
certainly be made to _respond_ to vocal commands. That doesn't really imply<BR>
understanding.<BR>
<BR>
That said, there are some computers out there that people are arguing _do_<BR>
actually understand things now, though I believe these are currently still<BR>
working through text interfaces rather than voice commands.<BR>
<BR>
> TL14: clock speeds reach their upper electronic limit (coming soon - well<BR>
> within my life)<BR>
<BR>
There was that quote from the 3DFX tech lead who said<BR>
"Moore's Law is for wimps"<BR>
<BR>
> Finally something to taunt serious canonites about. Maybe it's just a game<BR>
> after all.<BR>
<BR>
As if the Vingian Singularity didn't already blow away the general concept<BR>
of a Traveler style future <grin><BR>
<BR>
> What TL are we at today??<BR>
<BR>
Was that _meant_ to sound like a Microsoft marketing logo ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:17:43 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>At 01:36 PM 2/27/2000 GMT, you wrote:<BR>
>>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything but t-port<BR>
>>> naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The object in question is an<BR>
>>> electtronic lockpick desribed by yours truely as about the size and shape<BR>
>>> of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
><BR>
>>If you are a level 5 teleporter wearing clothes, can you teleport<BR>
>>away, leaving your clothes behind or does wearing the clothes<BR>
>>confuse your abilities, forcing you to take them off first?<BR>
>><BR>
>>In either case, I'd go for you can't take the lock picks, nor<BR>
>>can you wear body paint.<BR>
><BR>
>A sort of "I know my body, anything else is a distraction" idea?<BR>
<BR>
IMO Yes.<BR>
<BR>
Thought: you could let them take *one* item as a level 6 ability.<BR>
<BR>
If you made it a distraction preventing teleport, then people with<BR>
pinned legs or artifical hearts might need to be level 6 or 7 before they<BR>
could teleport at all.<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:09:50 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> TL10: Voice transcription within a "domain of discourse" (like IBM's Via<BR>
> Voice, a great product)<BR>
> <BR>
> Primitive experiments in synaptic procesing also take place at TL10, but I<BR>
> will assume for not that this means more than fuzzy logic, neural networks,<BR>
> genetic algorithms, and other modern-day stuff.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Computers at this time can be made to understand and respond to basic<BR>
> commands, consisting of simple sentences." Maybe we're here also, or almost<BR>
> here. My wife can now pick up the phone and say "Computer, call Luther," and<BR>
> my cell phone will ring. My 3-year old can say "Computer, play Ham Game,"<BR>
> and Green Eggs and Ham starts.<BR>
<BR>
We ain't there yet.  First, the quote above is fuzzy enough to<BR>
permit many interpretations.  I'd say TL10's computers all have<BR>
access to broad knowledge bases: that is, the protocol for data <BR>
retrieval and the bandwidth to find and retrieve it is complex <BR>
and established in enough of a network or system that the computer <BR>
can answer questions about general knowledge.<BR>
<BR>
Call it infrastructure, and of course a bit faster networks.<BR>
<BR>
We have the technology.  We just don't have it all together yet.<BR>
But we could soon.<BR>
<BR>
So, I suppose we're at Computer-TL9.<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:21:47 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Rockets, FF&S, & stuff<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> I have the comined T4/CSC errata on my page at:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/t4.html<BR>
<BR>
No you don't!  :-)<BR>
<BR>
That page was impossible to access, even using the link in the Gridlore<BR>
section.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:24:40 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> Don't worry about it, Stuart.  You are in no way obligated to meet<BR>
> the February 28th deadline, any more than you are obligated to spend<BR>
> so much of your free time creating Heaven & Earth, period.  It'll be<BR>
> ready when it's ready. :)<BR>
<BR>
... but I think that you will have to feed the program to the users on a<BR>
long metal pole. Otherwise, you'll lose your arm in the attempt :-)<BR>
<BR>
Just notify us when you're done...<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:40:57<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Betting on the Races<BR>
<BR>
At 06:29 PM 2/27/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>>>GROOOAAAANNNNNN!!!!!<<<<BR>
<BR>
"Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of my distingushed colleague's inarticulate<BR>
groan of horror and pain."<BR>
<BR>
I really need to stop watching Prime Minister's Question Time on C-SPAN...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 07:42:00<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:25 PM 2/27/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Finally something to taunt serious canonites about. Maybe it's just a game<BR>
>after all.<BR>
<BR>
HERESY!!!<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:55:46 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: CT reprints, character generation<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/27/00 9:12:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 19:51:22 -0700<BR>
>  From: "Andrew Batishko" <abatish@cyberhighway.net><BR>
>  Subject: CT Reprints<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Well, the CT reprints came on Saturday! My only prior experience with<BR>
>  that style of character generation was T4, and I must say that I<BR>
>  definitely prefer CT. So, quick question... Is there a free program<BR>
>  anywhere out there that manages CT character generation?<BR>
<BR>
Yes. Several (at least 5). On the HIWG CD :)<BR>
<BR>
I expect there should be some at the Missouri site too.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:12:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
<Andrew wrote about hull limits & posted the BB-Pumpkin><BR>
<BR>
Andrew, thankfully I was not drinking coffee when I read about the<BR>
savior of the Terran Fleet the UN-BB Pumpkin.<BR>
<BR>
When I think of a name that will strike terror into my enemies the<BR>
"Gourd" class of battleships does not immediately spring to mind.<BR>
<BR>
Picture the mighty Pumpkin with her sister ships, Cucumber, Zucchini,<BR>
Butternut, and Spaghetti.<BR>
<BR>
Admiral "Give the order to surrender!"<BR>
Comm officer "Uh, they're laughing at us again sir! :-)"<BR>
<BR>
Seriously thanks for the heads up on the Book 5 mistake.  It was driving<BR>
me batty.  I cooked up a new battleship for the Terrans this weekend 50K<BR>
tons.  (Named after famous Terran Generals, not vegetables!  ;-)  I'll<BR>
post it once I get the USP worked out.<BR>
<BR>
After re-reading your Prometheus Rising material I decided not to kill<BR>
myself reinventing the wheel.  I really like how you fleshed out the<BR>
Intwars period and the stuff you did for Galactic is saving me a hell of<BR>
a lot of time "regressing" supplement 10.<BR>
I may play with world stats a little (probably population levels) but<BR>
you've already done most of the work.  Have you done any sectors past<BR>
the first 4 Intwars?  I'd like to see them if you do.<BR>
<BR>
I decided to start my campaign after the 1st Interstellar war has ended<BR>
but before the 2nd starts.  I'm going for 2025, where the Terran<BR>
Confederation is barely 5 years old and the Fleet is massive<BR>
rebuild/refit mode after their near defeat of the 1st war.  They have<BR>
only had Jump 2 for 5 years and are trying to set up colonies as fast as<BR>
possible.  I picture the Terran Confed a lot like how the movie Starship<BR>
Troopers portrayed the situation on Earth during the Bugwars i.e. the<BR>
draft is underway, the whole world is mobilized in defense against the<BR>
Vilani Menace  ("Your papers citizen") It should be good for keeping<BR>
PC's busy for a few years before the next I war and will be fun for Me<BR>
designing the new fleet.<BR>
<BR>
- -Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:56:31 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Odd World Concept<BR>
<BR>
I was sort of thinking about water-worlds for a bit, and I was trying to work<BR>
out mechanics for true world-spanning oceans.  Along the way I came up with<BR>
a concept for what might be a very strange world...<BR>
<BR>
Take a large planet formed somewhat beyond the snow line -- say, with <BR>
composition resembling europa, but mass equal or greater than the earth.<BR>
<BR>
Assume a gas giant interaction (or perhaps a passing star, or something) kicks<BR>
this planet inward, into the life zone.<BR>
<BR>
Within a million years, the ice will basically melt.  Result will be an ocean<BR>
which might be thousands of kilometers deep.<BR>
<BR>
So...what would a world like that be like?<BR>
<BR>
Life seems unlikely, as most minerals are immensely far away.<BR>
The atmosphere seems most likely to be nitrogen-based, though I can imagine <BR>
oxygen being released into the atmosphere by photodissociation of water vapor.<BR>
Weather might be rather appalling, as there are no land masses to break up<BR>
storms.<BR>
The world might well be tide-locked, though I doubt that the farside could<BR>
freeze solid, liquid water would be far too good a heat conductor.  It would<BR>
probably have a permanent floating icecap, however.<BR>
<BR>
So...do my ponderings make any sense?  Any other thoughts as to what a world<BR>
like this might be like?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:03:19 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
At 0:11 -0500 28/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>Ah. The ACQ model deadline. :)<BR>
><BR>
>(The rumble of penguin feet is heard...)<BR>
<BR>
Weee are Komink! Screek! Screek!<BR>
<BR>
<patter> <patter> <splash><BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:22:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 27 Feb 00, at 9:33, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Do keep in mind that even if Spain had kept California, Nevada, and<BR>
>> the like, The US would *still* have owned the Oregon territory. So we'd<BR>
>> still have the long lag.<BR>
><BR>
> Unless the Birtish had kept that. And then we can speculate on the war <BR>
> of 1812, what would've happened if Napoleon hadn't sold the land he <BR>
> extorted off the Spanish to the US, etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
The Oregon Territory was technically part of the Lousiana purchase.<BR>
Plus, between the Lewis & Clark expedition and visits to the coast by<BR>
both British and American vessels, both the US *and* Britain had<BR>
reasonable claims. <BR>
<BR>
And if you are considering "what if" stuff, keep in mind "54-40 or<BR>
fight!" That was the slogan when we were arguing with Britain about the<BR>
ownership of the Oregon Territory. It referred to the *northern* border<BR>
the US wanted to claim for the Oregon Territory. 54 degrees, 40 minutes<BR>
N. Which is currently the *southern* border of Alaska.<BR>
<BR>
If we hadn't compromised (and had won the resulting fight) Canada<BR>
wouldn't *have* a west coast! The US would own what is now British<BR>
Columbia, and possibly the area north of BC and east of Alaska (is that<BR>
the Yukon or NW Territory?)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:36:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> TL14: clock speeds reach their upper electronic limit (coming soon - well<BR>
> within my life)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, long before we hit the limit on clock speeds, we'll hit the<BR>
limit on size vs speed.<BR>
<BR>
They are talking about gigahertz clock speeds for whatever replaces the<BR>
Pentium & K6. That means 1 cycle = 1 nanosecond.<BR>
<BR>
Now as anyone familar with Adm. Grace Hopper[1] knows, a nanosecond is<BR>
a bit under a foot (ie 1 light-nanosecond is 30 cm).<BR>
<BR>
So, in one clock cycle the signals can't travel even one foot. Less<BR>
since signals in copper/silicon, etc move at somewhat *under*<BR>
lightspeed. <BR>
<BR>
So, while we could make clocks a lot faster, it won't help much of<BR>
anything beyond the CPU chip!<BR>
<BR>
[1] Adm. Hopper used to hand out "nanoseconds" at lectures. Pieces of<BR>
copper wire cut to be approx. 1 light-nanosecond long. More recently,<BR>
she switched to picoseconds (grains of salt!).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:16:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:29 27.02.00 +0000, Paul Campbell wrote:<BR>
>>On Sun, 27 Feb 2000, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think of anything that would be<BR>
>>better than the importance of personal responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> very<BR>
>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the resultant communications<BR>
> lag. <BR>
><BR>
> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system, would it? A republic can be<BR>
> built on personal responsibilty even better, since a local politician that<BR>
> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a crisis will be removed after<BR>
> his first election period. That's one thing much harder to do in a<BR>
> feudalistic state...<BR>
<BR>
Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of voluntarily entered into<BR>
"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior and inferior lay out<BR>
the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can remove you.<BR>
<BR>
"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage over a republic. You<BR>
know who is going to hold the position *years* in advance. As well as<BR>
who will hold it if something happens to him. Which means you can<BR>
*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:47:23 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor writes:<BR>
>Ian Ferguson wrote :-<BR>
>> Just for reference, a typical human has difficulty holding<BR>
>> breath for more than 1 minute, and it is a rare human<BR>
>> indeed who can hold it for more than 3 minutes.<BR>
>The average would be closer to 2 minutes. Breath hold divers push<BR>
>the envelope at nearly ten minutes. The physiology is fascinating,<BR>
>IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
	Maybe I'm a wimp, but I find it very difficult to hold my<BR>
	breath for more than 90 seconds.  :x  Physiology texts which<BR>
	I consulted gave the "a little more than 1 minute" figure<BR>
	which I reported.  I don't know what the world record is,<BR>
	but not long ago the record depth for a diver without<BR>
	breathing equipment was 99 m, and the diver held his breath<BR>
	for 3 minutes 39 seconds.  Of course, an exceptional<BR>
	individual could hold their breath for longer if they<BR>
	remained inactive.<BR>
<BR>
>> Aquatic mammals, of course, can hold their breath for much longer,<BR>
>> but rely on replentishing their stores regularly and<BR>
>> restricting blood flow to many systems.<BR>
>Their tissue oxygen stores (myoglobin in muscle) are much larger than<BR>
>those of terrestrial ones (the primary store in both cases is the<BR>
>lungs).<BR>
<BR>
	I hope that I am forgiven for waxing technical, but I recently<BR>
	gave a lecture on this subject.  Animals such as seals exhale<BR>
	before diving: a typical 70 kg (154 lb) human taking a deep<BR>
	breath before diving holds about 4,500 ml of air with about<BR>
	720 ml O2 in the lungs, while a 30 kg (66 lb) seal dives with<BR>
	about 350 ml of air carrying about 104 ml O2 in the lungs.<BR>
	Further, much of the O2 in the seal's lungs is in<BR>
	physiological dead space and unavailable to the bloodstream.<BR>
	There are two obvious advantages this: it makes it easier for<BR>
	the seal to dive, and there is less N2 to be absorbed by the<BR>
	blood (too much N2 in the blood can lead to nitrogen narcosis<BR>
	or, when returning to the surface, the "bends").<BR>
<BR>
	Aquatic mammals have very dark meat, largely because of the<BR>
	high levels of myoglobin (a haemoglobin-like molecule in the<BR>
	muscle that stores O2).  Still, muscle does not carry nearly<BR>
	as much O2 as blood: a typical human carries about 240 ml O2<BR>
	in 16 kg of muscle tissue, while a seal carries about 270 ml<BR>
	O2 in 6 kg of muscle tissue.  With blood, things get<BR>
	interesting: the 70-kg human has about 5,000 ml of blood which<BR>
	carries 825 ml O2, but the 30-kg seal has about 4,500 ml of<BR>
	blood with 1,125 ml O2 (these are bloody animals!).  Note that<BR>
	seal blood carries more O2 per unit volume.<BR>
<BR>
	There is also about 200 ml O2 disolved in various body fluids<BR>
	in humans, and about 100 ml in seals.  The end result is that<BR>
	seals have about double the O2 per unit mass that humans do,<BR>
	most of which is stored in the blood.  Seals also reduce their<BR>
	heart rate and reduce blood flow to much of their bodies so<BR>
	that they can dive considerably longer than humans: 20-25<BR>
	minutes.  I got these figures primarily from _Animal<BR>
	Physiology_ by Knut Schmidt-Nielsen.<BR>
<BR>
>Muscle tissues of marine mammals also have a much greater density<BR>
>of mitochondria.<BR>
<BR>
	Alas, physiology is not my strong suit.  How does this<BR>
	influence breath-holding times?  Is it related to aerobic/<BR>
	anaerobic pathways, metabolic rates, etc.?<BR>
<BR>
>The gas crystals are interesting. Well done.<BR>
<BR>
	Thanks  :)<BR>
<BR>
>> An organism could form prisms,<BR>
><snip><BR>
>> Openings in the protective layer have prisms that direct usable<BR>
>>light into the photosynthetic tissues.<BR>
>These 'wave guides' sound like the ommatidia of insect compound<BR>
>eyes, and would probably be the primary size limiter of the<BR>
>organism.<BR>
<BR>
	Good point, I thought a little about whether such creatures<BR>
	would tend to be large or small, but never came to a<BR>
	conclusion.<BR>
<BR>
>> A magnetic field<BR>
>> collects ions from surrounding space and moves them into one of<BR>
>>the holes.  Atom by atom, the space cigar accumulates mass, sorts<BR>
>>it, and builds tissues.  The vast majority will be hydrogen,<BR>
>>which may be stored for thrust.  Tiny micropores allow lateral<BR>
>>thrust for stearing.<BR>
>Extremely long-lived ; would probably do better in close proximity<BR>
>to some massive body where there's more matter around to collect.<BR>
>The Io-Jupiter flux tube could be an ideal location, for example.<BR>
<BR>
	You will have to enlighten me about the Io-Jupiter flux tube,<BR>
	is it an area where gravetic forces increase the density of<BR>
	molecules, perhaps sucked up from Jupiter?<BR>
<BR>
>>The entire organism is about 10 cm (4") long, and is made up of<BR>
>>one complex cell inside a shell composed of heavier atoms<BR>
>>collected over millenia.<BR>
>Bacteria sized organisms (and colonies thereof) are much more<BR>
>likely, although nummulites got up to a couple of centimetres in<BR>
>diameter, didn't they?<BR>
<BR>
	Once again, I didn't give the size much thought, but allowed<BR>
	myself to be biased towards organisms that the PCs could see.<BR>
	:o<BR>
<BR>
>>On the surface of a comet, a single front sprouts from a root<BR>
>>imbedded in the ice.<BR>
><snip interesting description><BR>
>I posted something similar to this when Charles Collin asked about<BR>
>'vacuum flowers' last year.<BR>
<BR>
	Oops, sorry.  No copywrite infringement was intended  :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:52:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 11:12 AM 2/28/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>When I think of a name that will strike terror into my enemies the<BR>
>"Gourd" class of battleships does not immediately spring to mind.<BR>
><BR>
>Picture the mighty Pumpkin with her sister ships, Cucumber, Zucchini,<BR>
>Butternut, and Spaghetti.<BR>
<BR>
Slightly tangental to this, there are several US Navy ships bearing odd<BR>
names. <BR>
<BR>
USS The Sullivans, DDG-68, is named after five brothers who all perished<BR>
when the USS Juneau, CL-52, sank on 13 November 1942.  Other than the<BR>
oddity of being named The Sullivans, It must be a real morale booster to be<BR>
reminded daily of the reality of death in the service.<BR>
<BR>
USS Hopper, DDG-70, is only the second warship in history to be named after<BR>
a woman, in this case Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, the Grand Lady of<BR>
Software. The crew calls the ship the "Amazing Grace."<BR>
<BR>
But the best names came from the US WWII submarine fleet.<BR>
<BR>
USS SEALION (SS 195)<BR>
USS PERCH (SS 176)<BR>
USS GRUNION (SS 216)<BR>
USS AMBERJACK (SS 219)<BR>
USS GRAMPUS (SS 207)<BR>
USS PICKEREL (SS 177)<BR>
USS WAHOO (SS 238)<BR>
USS TROUT (SS 202)<BR>
USS HERRING (SS 233)<BR>
USS GUDGEON (SS 211)<BR>
USS SCAMP (SS 277)<BR>
USS SNOOK (SS 279)<BR>
USS BONEFISH (SS 223)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:52:06 -0000<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT Ship design questions?<BR>
<BR>
David,<BR>
<BR>
did you ever get your question answered about Hi Perf drives etc for MT? I don't know <BR>
about the content of the TML archives (shuddering at the thought of the search process)<BR>
You can find some relevant information on p78-80 of MTJ4 (OK, it's DGP and not canon, <BR>
but I think it is what you want.)<BR>
<BR>
I'll recap some of it...<BR>
<BR>
Low Maint Drives.<BR>
(Jump & Maneuver) - Special self checking computers monitor the adjustments, and <BR>
extra-sturdy parts are used. When buying low maint drives, multiply the volume and<BR>
weight by 1.5, and the cost by 1.2. A drive's hit points are multiplied by 1.2.<BR>
These designs only need an overhaul every two years instead of the usual one. The<BR>
number of engineers in the crew is multiplied by 0.8 per Low Maint drive.<BR>
<BR>
Hi Perf Drives<BR>
(Maneuver) these can, with the use of special design and parts, be given upto 50%<BR>
higher performance than usual. When buying high performance drives, multiply weight<BR>
and volume by 0.8 and cost by 1.2. Because of their fine tuning, they require more<BR>
maintenance. Multiply the number of engineers required by 1.2.<BR>
<BR>
There are some other 'cool' things (some are a little too fancy - champagne filled swimming<BR>
pool anybody?)<BR>
<BR>
Hope it helps<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens<BR>
Lancashire UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 13:54:27 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
>I think that many of the space critters thought of here would<BR>
>have one very dangerous characteristic - in the presence of<BR>
>concentrated resources, they would grow and reproduce at phenomenal<BR>
>rates.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	This is certainly plausable, and potentially very fun to<BR>
	inflict on hapless PCs.  On the other hand, one could also<BR>
	argue that their metabolic processes have never evolved to<BR>
	process materials that fast, in which case they might grow<BR>
	slowly (though still faster than usual), or even be poisoned<BR>
	(O2 is toxic to humans in excess).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:25:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: K'KREE CHARACTER GENERATION<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have an idea ,link or file how to create<BR>
K'Kree Characters for TNE?<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:12:22 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Technology Marches On:  Nano-Tech Breakthrough<BR>
<BR>
This is for you GMs with players who demand detail with<BR>
their tech.<BR>
<BR>
Beyond 2000 has posted a story on the creation of the first<BR>
micromachine constructed of solid *diamond*. This promises<BR>
to make silicon obsolete for such construction.<BR>
<BR>
Written in layman's language with decent illustrations, the<BR>
full story can be found at:<BR>
http://www.beyond2000.com/news/story_473.html<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Not much unless you use nanotech in your campaign.<BR>
This is just a reminder that Reality(tm) has been catching<BR>
up, and surpassing, Traveller tech. Kinda cool!<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1976<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1977<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re:CT psionic question<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: MT Ship design questions?<BR>
Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
RE: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
"Your Ship Is POND SCUM!"<BR>
Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
world generation system<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:16:21 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>This came up in a CT game I'm running for some kids.<BR>
>A teleporter is at the level where she is unable to do anything<BR>
>but t-port naked. Can she carry something in her mouth?  The <BR>
>object in question is an electtronic lockpick desribed by yours<BR>
<BR>
>truely as about the size and shape of a roll of breath mints.<BR>
><BR>
>Since these players are all 12-13, other body cavities did not <BR>
>come up at the table, but they are also possibilities. <BR>
<BR>
Those crazy teenagers!  There is a lot of room for play here.  I<BR>
play it as follows:  Ordinarily, you can teleport your body and<BR>
anything inside it that is not too different from your body. <BR>
"Not too different" is where you have room to play; the referee<BR>
should adjust the task roll for taking things along.  I think<BR>
part of the teleport's task at this level is to fool his/her<BR>
mind into believing that the object is part of his/her body.  At<BR>
higher levels, either it's easier to fool the mind, or it just<BR>
becomes unnecessary.<BR>
<BR>
Here are some ideas:   <BR>
<BR>
The meal you just ate is soft organic stuff that is becoming<BR>
part of your body (and becoming waste, too).  Probably no<BR>
modification to task roll.<BR>
<BR>
The calcium pill that you just took is very small, but it has a<BR>
different texture than your body.  Probably no modification to<BR>
task roll.<BR>
<BR>
You're used to having your pacemaker in your chest -- probably<BR>
no modification to task roll.<BR>
<BR>
Cybernetic junk, internal prosthetics?  Make the task more<BR>
difficult.<BR>
<BR>
The "plan" from Papillon (which I read at 12, but wasn't playing<BR>
Traveller yet (of course, they hadn't invented cathode ray tubes<BR>
when I was 12)), or your lockpick thing:  probably makes the<BR>
task more difficult.  It might make the task easier to put the<BR>
hard metallic object into something soft and mushy.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:22:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
>You better expect a lot of giggling and embarrassed ribbing <BR>
>over naked porting. <g><BR>
<BR>
I've already been visualizing the scene as a comic book, maybe<BR>
Moench & Gulacy, but maybe Christopher Moeller (just found issue<BR>
1 of Sheva's War, by the way, and am looking for 2-5; anyone<BR>
know of any other comics by Moeller?).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:23:21 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT Ship design questions?<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones posted:<BR>
><BR>
>David,<BR>
><BR>
>did you ever get your question answered about Hi Perf drives etc for MT? I<BR>
don't know <BR>
>about the content of the TML archives (shuddering at the thought of the<BR>
search process)<BR>
>You can find some relevant information on p78-80 of MTJ4 (OK, it's DGP and<BR>
not canon, <BR>
>but I think it is what you want.)<BR>
><BR>
>I'll recap some of it...<BR>
><BR>
<snip of recap><BR>
>Hope it helps<BR>
<BR>
Bless you! This was *exactly* what I was looking for.<BR>
<BR>
So if I'm using a high performance version of a 6G M-Drive, the ship's top<BR>
accel is 9Gs? Also, can Hi-perf/lo-maint options be combined?<BR>
<BR>
I have the MTJournal at home but I'm at work and this is driving me nuts.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:32:07 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Now as anyone familar with Adm. Grace Hopper[1] knows, a nanosecond is<BR>
> a bit under a foot (ie 1 light-nanosecond is 30 cm).<BR>
> [...snip...]<BR>
> [1] Adm. Hopper used to hand out "nanoseconds" at lectures. Pieces of<BR>
> copper wire cut to be approx. 1 light-nanosecond long. More recently,<BR>
> she switched to picoseconds (grains of salt!).<BR>
<BR>
and Doug Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> USS Hopper, DDG-70, is only the second warship in history to be named after<BR>
> a woman, in this case Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, the Grand Lady of<BR>
> Software. The crew calls the ship the "Amazing Grace."<BR>
<BR>
Now, clearly, the only reasonable explanation for Grace Hopper's name<BR>
coming up in rapid succession in two different threads is that some sort <BR>
of code is in use. You'll also note that several numeric items come up <BR>
in the quoted paragraphs, in the sequence 1, 1, 30, 1, 1, 70. This can<BR>
only me$$!gqn((*<BR>
NO CARRIER<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:33:56 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Also, black body paint can be used (along with shaving of a few<BR>
<BR>
>areas) to make a pretty convincing simulation of a *very* form <BR>
>fitting bodysuit.  That might help with the embarassment <BR>
>factor, as well as give at least some advantages, both as <BR>
>concealment in the dark, and being not *quite* as obvious if <BR>
>spotted.- -- <BR>
<BR>
I recently saw a Victoria's Secret special in which bathing suit<BR>
designer just painted the suits onto the models.  (Don't you<BR>
think it's time you got cable tv?)  Embarrassment may or may not<BR>
be a factor as cultures change over time and place (Greek women<BR>
were going about bare breasted all the time only a couple of<BR>
thousand years ago, e.g.), but camouflage will be important. <BR>
Cream or paint or whatever should be indistinguishable from skin<BR>
to the teleporter, so should go along nicely.  It need not be<BR>
all black -- it could be woodland disruptive pattern or<BR>
whatever.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:15:19<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
<BR>
At 12:32 PM 2/28/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Now, clearly, the only reasonable explanation for Grace Hopper's name<BR>
>coming up in rapid succession in two different threads is that some sort <BR>
>of code is in use. You'll also note that several numeric items come up <BR>
>in the quoted paragraphs, in the sequence 1, 1, 30, 1, 1, 70. This can<BR>
>only me$$!gqn((*<BR>
>NO CARRIER<BR>
<BR>
That was too close, Brother Leonard. Our masters will not be pleased.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:26:48 -0700<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> The meal you just ate is soft organic stuff that is becoming<BR>
> part of your body (and becoming waste, too).  Probably no<BR>
> modification to task roll.<BR>
> <BR>
> The calcium pill that you just took is very small, but it has a<BR>
> different texture than your body.  Probably no modification to<BR>
> task roll.<BR>
> <BR>
> You're used to having your pacemaker in your chest -- probably<BR>
> no modification to task roll.<BR>
<BR>
And that bullet you just took in the arm? Why, just teleport elsewhere,<BR>
leaving that behind, and you'll be set (except for the hemorrhaging, of<BR>
course).<BR>
<BR>
Now, to get rid of those pesky handcuffs ...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:41:22 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 11<BR>
<BR>
Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> For THUDDD 11, I've seen one person (Jens Rydholm) express an<BR>
> interest in submitting a design.  My suggestion, since there is at<BR>
> least one person interested besides the original entrant, would be to<BR>
> begin THUDDD 12, let that run through submission and voting, and then<BR>
> reopen THUDDD "11-A."  That also buys time for discussions for a<BR>
> topic for THUDDD 13.<BR>
<BR>
I won't be able to enter a design within a reasonable amount of time.<BR>
During the weekend I visited CeBit (Hannover), and now I have some<BR>
catching up (university studies) to do.<BR>
<BR>
I will probably enter the next competition, however.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:34:16 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 22 Feb 00, at 13:47, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  I hope that I am forgiven for waxing technical, but I recently<BR>
>  gave a lecture on this subject.  Animals such as seals exhale<BR>
>  before diving: a typical 70 kg (154 lb) human taking a deep<BR>
>  breath before diving holds about 4,500 ml of air with about<BR>
>  720 ml O2 in the lungs, while a 30 kg (66 lb) seal dives with<BR>
>  about 350 ml of air carrying about 104 ml O2 in the lungs.<BR>
>  Further, much of the O2 in the seal's lungs is in<BR>
>  physiological dead space and unavailable to the bloodstream.<BR>
>  There are two obvious advantages this: it makes it easier for<BR>
>  the seal to dive, and there is less N2 to be absorbed by the<BR>
>  blood (too much N2 in the blood can lead to nitrogen narcosis<BR>
>  or, when returning to the surface, the "bends").<BR>
<BR>
So, why do whales, dolphins, etc breathe in before they dive?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:04:46 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Feb 00, at 12:33, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> <BR>
> >Also, black body paint can be used (along with shaving of a few<BR>
> <BR>
> >areas) to make a pretty convincing simulation of a *very* form <BR>
> >fitting bodysuit.  That might help with the embarassment <BR>
> >factor, as well as give at least some advantages, both as <BR>
> >concealment in the dark, and being not *quite* as obvious if <BR>
> >spotted.- -- <BR>
> <BR>
> I recently saw a Victoria's Secret special in which bathing suit<BR>
> designer just painted the suits onto the models.  (Don't you<BR>
> think it's time you got cable tv?)  Embarrassment may or may not<BR>
> be a factor as cultures change over time and place (Greek women<BR>
> were going about bare breasted all the time only a couple of<BR>
> thousand years ago, e.g.), but camouflage will be important. <BR>
> Cream or paint or whatever should be indistinguishable from skin<BR>
> to the teleporter, so should go along nicely.  It need not be<BR>
> all black -- it could be woodland disruptive pattern or<BR>
> whatever.<BR>
<BR>
The bare-beasted ones were Minoans, not Greeks. Hoever Greek men (and <BR>
possibly women, I can't remember) went around naked quite often. There <BR>
was a law passed in Athens banning nudity inside city limits during the <BR>
Pellopensian War in an attempt to cut down on rape. It also forbade <BR>
women to walk through town singly, for the same reason.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:04:46 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Feb 00, at 9:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 27 Feb 00, at 9:33, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Do keep in mind that even if Spain had kept California, Nevada, and the<BR>
> >> like, The US would *still* have owned the Oregon territory. So we'd<BR>
> >> still have the long lag.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Unless the Birtish had kept that. And then we can speculate on the war<BR>
> > of 1812, what would've happened if Napoleon hadn't sold the land he<BR>
> > extorted off the Spanish to the US, etc, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Oregon Territory was technically part of the Lousiana purchase.<BR>
> Plus, between the Lewis & Clark expedition and visits to the coast by both<BR>
> British and American vessels, both the US *and* Britain had reasonable<BR>
> claims. <BR>
> <BR>
> And if you are considering "what if" stuff, keep in mind "54-40 or<BR>
> fight!" That was the slogan when we were arguing with Britain about the<BR>
> ownership of the Oregon Territory. It referred to the *northern* border<BR>
> the US wanted to claim for the Oregon Territory. 54 degrees, 40 minutes N.<BR>
> Which is currently the *southern* border of Alaska.<BR>
<BR>
Another "what if" - how about if the American Indians hadn't died off <BR>
in such great numbers and hadn't been so completely defeated, so in the <BR>
aftermath of WWII the US was forced to "de-colonise" like the european <BR>
powers (also losing its Pacific islands)? The way many US citizens <BR>
think that the US is not a colonial power and that the population of <BR>
the US far west doesn't count as colonisation (probably because it's <BR>
not "overseas") amuses me.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:10:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
At 02:26 PM 2/28/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> You're used to having your pacemaker in your chest -- probably<BR>
>> no modification to task roll.<BR>
><BR>
>And that bullet you just took in the arm? Why, just teleport elsewhere,<BR>
>leaving that behind, and you'll be set (except for the hemorrhaging, of<BR>
>course).<BR>
<BR>
This brings up an interesting thought.<BR>
<BR>
A common occurrence among cancer patients is a feeling of disassociation<BR>
from their own bodies. We look at ourselves in the mirror, and all we see<BR>
is that machine that is trying to kill us. There is a real sense of betrayal.<BR>
<BR>
That being said, would a cancer patient be able to teleport with these<BR>
sorts of feelings?  Trust me, these feelings can extend to the point of<BR>
interfering with your ability to use your sense of touch!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless winged<BR>
squirrel, coming through.."  -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:16:32 -0600<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: "Your Ship Is POND SCUM!"<BR>
<BR>
Can't believe I missed this one. The full story is at:<BR>
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/hydrogen000222.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- quote --<BR>
<BR>
W A S H I N G T O N, Feb. 22 - Hydrogen may<BR>
become an ideal fuel when the supply of oil and<BR>
natural gas runs out, but the problem has been<BR>
finding a way to produce it cheaply. Scientists<BR>
now say the answer may be ordinary pond scum.<BR>
<BR>
Green algae, a simple plant that grows all over the<BR>
world, has the unique ability to convert water and<BR>
sunlight into hydrogen gas, researchers said Monday<BR>
at the national meeting of the American Association<BR>
for the Advancement of Science. <BR>
<BR>
Scientists have found a new way to force the algae to<BR>
make hydrogen gas on demand, a process that could lead<BR>
to an almost limitless supply of fuel that burns without<BR>
pollution and produces only water as a waste product...<BR>
<BR>
- -- endquote --<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  So the next time someone tells your engineer<BR>
his engines smell like pond scum, just have him<BR>
smile and say "Yeah? So?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:05:07 -0600<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
In <38BA0517.A85EC451@premier.net>, on 02/27/00 <BR>
   at 11:18 PM, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> 2.  College in Basic CharGen<BR>
 <BR>
>>     a.  A four year term can be taken *once* during CharGen, before<BR>
>>         or during the career, and after this term the character<BR>
>>         returns to their normal career path<BR>
 <BR>
>>     b.  The character recieves 4 skill levels in one of the<BR>
>>         following clusters.:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         1.  Business:  Admin, Broker, Trader, Law<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         2.  Science:  Archaeology, Biology, Chemistry, Physics<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         3.  Humanities:  Art, History, Language, Robotics<BR>
>> <BR>
>>     c.  Pick 1 skill level for you non-curricular activities<BR>
>> <BR>
>>     d.  No mustering out benefit<BR>
<BR>
>Were I to use this system, I would allow the college term to raise the<BR>
>character's Edu up to +2, in lieu of two of the skills awarded.  Other<BR>
>than that, your modifications for character careers seem to be reasonable<BR>
>for CT.<BR>
<BR>
That would be reasonable, too.  When I came up with this you didn't<BR>
combine Characteristics with Skills, so Edu, Int, etc weren't used all<BR>
that much during play...I didn't even hold really firmly to them during<BR>
career rolls.  My group a nd I were more concerned about getting skill<BR>
levels.<BR>
<BR>
I think, if I was to go back to CT, I still wouldn't combine skills and<BR>
characteristics, ala MT/TNE/T4. Instead, I might generate a default DM for<BR>
each Characteristic, say Characteristic/5 dn, to be used when no the<BR>
character had no appropriate skill. Hum, maybe not.<BR>
<BR>
>> 3.  Survival, failure means injury, not death.<BR>
<BR>
>Agreed, although what one service might consider a career-ending<BR>
>disability might not be so in another service.  I'd allow enlistment in a<BR>
>new branch, at a penalty of 2 pips.<BR>
<BR>
Or have specific liabilities for each career.<BR>
 <BR>
>> 4.  Mustering Out Benefits<BR>
>> <BR>
>>     a.  Services with Ranks<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         1.  1 Roll for each term + 1 Roll for each rank gained<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         2.  Rolls for ships do *not* give the character multiple<BR>
>>             ships<BR>
>> <BR>
>>     b.  Services without Ranks<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         1.  2 Rolls for each term<BR>
>> <BR>
>>         2.  Rolls for ships do not give the character multiple ships<BR>
<BR>
>I assume that multiple ship results still allow Merchant characters to<BR>
>gain ships with payments made in ten-year increments, as per Book 1.  <BR>
<BR>
Well, I ended up making it 10% of the cost of a Free Trader per Ship<BR>
Result rather than 10 years and groups could pool their percentages <BR>
Generally, the players spent a session spending their money on a ship, but<BR>
regardless of what got rolled, the details of whatever ships were<BR>
available and what they got was left up to the GM.  <g><BR>
<BR>
>For other careers that award ships (I'm just guessing about Citizens of the<BR>
>Imperium careers, since I don't have that book), I would rule as follows:<BR>
<BR>
>1.  Scouts: I would allow multiple ship benefits to serve as a permanent<BR>
>DM to avoid mobilization (for instance, a character who earned the Type S<BR>
>benefit three times would have a DM of 2 to avoid mobilization for an<BR>
>emergency).  Naturally, such characters wold still need to be available<BR>
>for debriefings, at the pleasure of the IISS.<BR>
<BR>
>2.  Nobles: Nobles who achieve multiple ship benefits could upgrade their<BR>
>yachts, at a cost/value of one yacht per award (they would still gain<BR>
>only one ship), with superior yachts designed under either Book 2 or HG2<BR>
>rules (depending on the preferred design system of the referee).  (BTW, I<BR>
>prefer a Far Trader as a yacht, with the cargo bay fitted out as a<BR>
>ballroom.)<BR>
<BR>
>3.  Scientists: Scientists who receive multiple Lab ships instead receive<BR>
>a +1 Edu per extra ship.  Alternately, if the Lab ship normally comes<BR>
>with strings attached, the Scientist in question would get a DM of 1 per<BR>
>additional award to ignore the stipulations.<BR>
<BR>
>4.  Pirates: Pirates who receive multiple Corsairs instead would gain a<BR>
>permanent bonus DM of 1 in determining loyalty of subordinates, as long<BR>
>as they own the ship gained on the first roll.  (Note that pirates who<BR>
>gain additional ships in their careers would maintain this bonus,<BR>
>until/unless they lose the original ship.  Thus, the Dread Pirate Westley<BR>
>could capture any number of ships, and employ them as corsairs under his<BR>
>control, so long as he maintained control of the pirate ship _Revenge_. <BR>
>Should he lose control of _Revenge_, he would lose any bonus DMs gained<BR>
>while mustering out.)<BR>
<BR>
>If any other careers have a Ship benefit, then additional rolls resulting<BR>
>in multiple Ship benefits should be handled in a manner similar to the<BR>
>above-mentioned careers.<BR>
<BR>
>Bottom line:  No character can have control of more than one ship as a<BR>
>result of mustering out.  However, additional ship benefits from<BR>
>mustering out do provide some gain to the character.<BR>
<BR>
All interesting takes.<BR>
<BR>
You know, reading the CTCE1, I'm getting interested in actually using the<BR>
old rules, maybe with the BITS task system, and FFS for ships and<BR>
equipment. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:29:52 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Another "what if" - how about if the American Indians hadn't died off <BR>
> in such great numbers and hadn't been so completely defeated, so in the <BR>
> aftermath of WWII the US was forced to "de-colonise" like the european <BR>
> powers (also losing its Pacific islands)? The way many US citizens <BR>
> think that the US is not a colonial power and that the population of <BR>
> the US far west doesn't count as colonisation (probably because it's <BR>
> not "overseas") amuses me.<BR>
<BR>
Well, to some degree it isn't colonization, or at least it wasn't for very<BR>
long.  A colony is a politically inferior entity, and areas in the west got<BR>
turned into states (with full political rights) once they had a significant<BR>
population.  As such, they aren't colonies.<BR>
<BR>
One can argue about various US territories and holdings (which aren't part of<BR>
states) but most of them aren't really colonized (very few people from the<BR>
mainland choose to become permanent resident), they're just controlled.<BR>
<BR>
Which is not to say that the behavior of the US hasn't significantly resembled<BR>
a colonial power.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:46:45 -0000<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
<BR>
>At 12:32 PM 2/28/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Now, clearly, the only reasonable explanation for Grace Hopper's name<BR>
>>coming up in rapid succession in two different threads is that some sort<BR>
>>of code is in use. You'll also note that several numeric items come up<BR>
>>in the quoted paragraphs, in the sequence 1, 1, 30, 1, 1, 70. This can<BR>
>>only me$$!gqn((*<BR>
>>NO CARRIER<BR>
><BR>
>That was too close, Brother Leonard. Our masters will not be pleased.<BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, so what happened on or shortly after 30th November 1170...<BR>
<BR>
let me see...<BR>
<BR>
AHA! Thomas  Beckett, Archbishop of Canterbury, murdered in December<BR>
1170...<BR>
<BR>
the thick plottens... <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:02:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: world generation system<BR>
<BR>
Something I threw together as part of another project; the basic goal here was<BR>
physically plausible world generation without substantial math.  For those<BR>
who are interested in such things, please take a look.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/ac_jackson/hero/worlds.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:22:25 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rules say no "external" materials or weapons.  Inside the mouth<BR>
> would be internal, so I'd rule she could do it.  You're doing this<BR>
> with middle-schoolers, huh?  You better expect a lot of giggling and<BR>
> embarrassed ribbing over naked porting. <g><BR>
<BR>
I would recommend the following Freefall strip, as germane to this<BR>
subtopic:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ff300/fv00203.htm<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:32:30 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:03:19 +0000, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 0:11 -0500 28/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Ah. The ACQ model deadline. :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >(The rumble of penguin feet is heard...)<BR>
> <BR>
> Weee are Komink! Screek! Screek!<BR>
> <BR>
> <patter> <patter> <splash><BR>
<BR>
PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable... allows you to deliver penguins on<BR>
target out to a range of 1,000 meters-- gar-un-teed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
A seminar on Time Travel will be held two weeks ago.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:51:45 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Feb 00, at 19:32, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 08:03:19 +0000, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > At 0:11 -0500 28/2/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> > wrote:<BR>
> > >Ah. The ACQ model deadline. :)<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >(The rumble of penguin feet is heard...)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Weee are Komink! Screek! Screek!<BR>
> > <BR>
> > <patter> <patter> <splash><BR>
> <BR>
> PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable... allows you to deliver penguins on<BR>
> target out to a range of 1,000 meters-- gar-un-teed.<BR>
<BR>
Well let's see the design sheet, then. Can't wait.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:42:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Walter Smith writes:<BR>
>>I think that many of the space critters thought of here would<BR>
>>have one very dangerous characteristic - in the presence of<BR>
>>concentrated resources, they would grow and reproduce at phenomenal<BR>
>>rates.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
>         This is certainly plausable, and potentially very fun to<BR>
>         inflict on hapless PCs.  On the other hand, one could also<BR>
>         argue that their metabolic processes have never evolved to<BR>
>         process materials that fast, in which case they might grow<BR>
>         slowly (though still faster than usual), or even be poisoned<BR>
>         (O2 is toxic to humans in excess).<BR>
<BR>
Well, to give just one example, *metal* (such as ship's hulls) is *not*<BR>
going to be something that space organisms are going to be all that<BR>
interested in. *Especially* iron/steel. They aren't much of an energy<BR>
source and they certainly aren't much of a "fuel" or "food". <BR>
<BR>
Ditto for "glass" and other silicates. <BR>
<BR>
*Plastics* will likely be "edible", but fluorocarbon based plastics<BR>
will be fairly immune because the fluorine bonds are so hard to break. <BR>
<BR>
I agree that free oxygen would likely be poisonous. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:49:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 22 Feb 00, at 13:47, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>  I hope that I am forgiven for waxing technical, but I recently<BR>
>>  gave a lecture on this subject.  Animals such as seals exhale<BR>
>>  before diving: a typical 70 kg (154 lb) human taking a deep<BR>
>>  breath before diving holds about 4,500 ml of air with about<BR>
>>  720 ml O2 in the lungs, while a 30 kg (66 lb) seal dives with<BR>
>>  about 350 ml of air carrying about 104 ml O2 in the lungs.<BR>
>>  Further, much of the O2 in the seal's lungs is in<BR>
>>  physiological dead space and unavailable to the bloodstream.<BR>
>>  There are two obvious advantages this: it makes it easier for<BR>
>>  the seal to dive, and there is less N2 to be absorbed by the<BR>
>>  blood (too much N2 in the blood can lead to nitrogen narcosis<BR>
>>  or, when returning to the surface, the "bends").<BR>
><BR>
> So, why do whales, dolphins, etc breathe in before they dive?<BR>
<BR>
Because if they don't, they *won't* have *any* usable O2!<BR>
<BR>
Try just closing your mouth at a random moment and see how long you can<BR>
hold your breath. Then *inhale* and try holding your breath. Finally,<BR>
try taking several deep breaths (flushing most of the dead air from<BR>
your lungs, and "pumping" some extra O2 into your system) and see how<BR>
long you can hold your breath.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the "several deep breaths" bit can lead to hyperventilation,<BR>
which is *not* good. So there's a limit.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1977<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1978</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1978<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Odd World Concept<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On:  Nano-Tech Breakthrough<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Technology Marches On:  Nano-Tech Breakthrough<BR>
Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
Re: Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
Re: Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
MT Question - oooohhhh it's tricky<BR>
Color of diamonds (was *factual error*)<BR>
Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
Re: MT Ship design questions?<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Superhero Campaingn<BR>
re: CT Psionics Question<BR>
Gearhead alert!<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:54:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Odd World Concept<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I was sort of thinking about water-worlds for a bit, and I was trying to work<BR>
> out mechanics for true world-spanning oceans.  Along the way I came up with<BR>
> a concept for what might be a very strange world...<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's *not* that hard. If Earth wasn't tectonically active,<BR>
it'd have *no* land surface. If you smooth out the surface of the<BR>
earth, you'd get a world ocean around 300-600 meters deep.<BR>
<BR>
> Take a large planet formed somewhat beyond the snow line -- say, with <BR>
> composition resembling europa, but mass equal or greater than the earth.<BR>
><BR>
> Assume a gas giant interaction (or perhaps a passing star, or something) <BR>
> kicks this planet inward, into the life zone.<BR>
<BR>
> Within a million years, the ice will basically melt.  Result will be an ocean<BR>
> which might be thousands of kilometers deep.<BR>
<BR>
> So...what would a world like that be like?<BR>
><BR>
> Life seems unlikely, as most minerals are immensely far away.<BR>
<BR>
They'll be dissolved in seawater. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The atmosphere seems most likely to be nitrogen-based, though I can imagine <BR>
> oxygen being released into the atmosphere by photodissociation of water <BR>
> vapor.<BR>
<BR>
You start with CH4, NH3, and H2O in the ice. Add sunlight, and you<BR>
eventually wind up with N2, CO2, and water vapor as the atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
> Weather might be rather appalling, as there are no land masses to break up<BR>
> storms.<BR>
<BR>
> The world might well be tide-locked, though I doubt that the farside could<BR>
> freeze solid, liquid water would be far too good a heat conductor.  It would<BR>
> probably have a permanent floating icecap, however.<BR>
<BR>
Water conducts heat too well. <BR>
<BR>
> So...do my ponderings make any sense?  Any other thoughts as to what a world<BR>
> like this might be like?<BR>
<BR>
There was a story in Analog maybe 10 years back that dealt with such a<BR>
planet. For various reasons, the waters would be rather acidic,<BR>
*especially* when life developed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:02:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>Also, black body paint can be used (along with shaving of a few<BR>
><BR>
>>areas) to make a pretty convincing simulation of a *very* form <BR>
>>fitting bodysuit.  That might help with the embarassment <BR>
>>factor, as well as give at least some advantages, both as <BR>
>>concealment in the dark, and being not *quite* as obvious if <BR>
>>spotted.- -- <BR>
><BR>
> I recently saw a Victoria's Secret special in which bathing suit<BR>
> designer just painted the suits onto the models.  (Don't you<BR>
> think it's time you got cable tv?)<BR>
<BR>
I was going from both some photos (well, JPEGs of photos) and a couple<BR>
of "interesting" stories (not suitable for Doug's players :-)<BR>
<BR>
> Embarrassment may or may not<BR>
> be a factor as cultures change over time and place (Greek women<BR>
> were going about bare breasted all the time only a couple of<BR>
> thousand years ago, e.g.), but camouflage will be important. <BR>
> Cream or paint or whatever should be indistinguishable from skin<BR>
> to the teleporter, so should go along nicely.  It need not be<BR>
> all black -- it could be woodland disruptive pattern or<BR>
> whatever.<BR>
<BR>
If you've ever read Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky", there's a bit of<BR>
advice from the hero's big sister (who is an NCO or junior officer in<BR>
an all female military unit) about when she needs a scout, she sends<BR>
out a trooper in her underwear and carrying no weapon other than a<BR>
knife. Being "under-dressed" that way makes you *really* sensitive to<BR>
your surroundings (something I can attest to from personal experiences<BR>
that I'm *not* going to give details of).<BR>
<BR>
Going out wearing nothing but camo paint would likely have the same<BR>
"beneficial" psychological effects. And a teleport could easily get the<BR>
hell out.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:51:31 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 2/28/00 6:54:39 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< But the best names came from the US WWII submarine fleet.<BR>
 <BR>
 USS SEALION (SS 195)<BR>
 USS PERCH (SS 176)<BR>
 USS GRUNION (SS 216)<BR>
 USS AMBERJACK (SS 219)<BR>
 USS GRAMPUS (SS 207)<BR>
 USS PICKEREL (SS 177)<BR>
 USS WAHOO (SS 238)<BR>
 USS TROUT (SS 202)<BR>
 USS HERRING (SS 233)<BR>
 USS GUDGEON (SS 211)<BR>
 USS SCAMP (SS 277)<BR>
 USS SNOOK (SS 279)<BR>
 USS BONEFISH (SS 223) >><BR>
<BR>
Yeah; but did you ever read about some of the stunts the skippers of some of <BR>
these boats pulled; impressive... BTW; add Harder and Tang to the list...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:18:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:32 PM 2/28/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Now, clearly, the only reasonable explanation for Grace Hopper's name<BR>
>>coming up in rapid succession in two different threads is that some sort <BR>
>>of code is in use. You'll also note that several numeric items come up <BR>
>>in the quoted paragraphs, in the sequence 1, 1, 30, 1, 1, 70. This can<BR>
>>only me$$!gqn((*<BR>
>>NO CARRIER<BR>
><BR>
> That was too close, Brother Leonard. Our masters will not be pleased.<BR>
<BR>
I have *no* idea what you are talking about. Do I know you?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:20:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On:  Nano-Tech Breakthrough<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> This is for you GMs with players who demand detail with<BR>
> their tech.<BR>
><BR>
> Beyond 2000 has posted a story on the creation of the first<BR>
> micromachine constructed of solid *diamond*. This promises<BR>
> to make silicon obsolete for such construction.<BR>
><BR>
> Written in layman's language with decent illustrations, the<BR>
> full story can be found at:<BR>
> http://www.beyond2000.com/news/story_473.html<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav:  Not much unless you use nanotech in your campaign.<BR>
> This is just a reminder that Reality(tm) has been catching<BR>
> up, and surpassing, Traveller tech. Kinda cool!<BR>
<BR>
There's also been talk of using properly "doped" diamond for circuitry.<BR>
On the other hand, some folks say you can't get diamond to act as a<BR>
semiconductor. I don't know who is correct. But I've also heard talk of<BR>
depositring silicon circuitry on a diamond substrate because diamond<BR>
conducts heat better.<BR>
<BR>
Either of those would result in larges scale production of single<BR>
crystal diamond, much the way single crystal silicon is produced now.<BR>
Thus, things made from scrap synthetic diamond would be rather *cheap*.<BR>
Among other things, I'd expect a *lot* of optical gear to use diamond<BR>
lenses and prisms. Not just because diamond is just about impossible to<BR>
scratch in normal use, but because diamond has such a *huge* index of<BR>
refraction. <BR>
<BR>
This could surprise your players, even though their *characters* will<BR>
take it for granted. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:09:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The meal you just ate is soft organic stuff that is becoming<BR>
>> part of your body (and becoming waste, too).  Probably no<BR>
>> modification to task roll.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The calcium pill that you just took is very small, but it has a<BR>
>> different texture than your body.  Probably no modification to<BR>
>> task roll.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> You're used to having your pacemaker in your chest -- probably<BR>
>> no modification to task roll.<BR>
><BR>
> And that bullet you just took in the arm? Why, just teleport elsewhere,<BR>
> leaving that behind, and you'll be set (except for the hemorrhaging, of<BR>
> course).<BR>
><BR>
> Now, to get rid of those pesky handcuffs ...<BR>
<BR>
Most SF figures that you have to be able to take anything in close<BR>
contact with you, or not go at all. Thus the practice of close fitting<BR>
ankle chains attached to the floor/wall.<BR>
<BR>
For the folks who use the "it has to practically be part of you to go<BR>
along" version, I'd restrain a teloprt by having lengths of aircraft<BR>
cable or the like with one end made into a loop that's embedded in a<BR>
flexible plastic pad several inches across. Peel the backing off the<BR>
pad and slap it onto a patch of bare skin. Use an adhesive similar to<BR>
superglue. One that unless you use the right solvent, it won't come off<BR>
without removing a *serious* amount of skin. Clamp the other end to<BR>
something solid and the teleport ain't going anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:24:42 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Technology Marches On:  Nano-Tech Breakthrough<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> wrote in message<BR>
news:<00228.212017.8P3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>...<BR>
<BR>
> There's also been talk of using properly "doped" diamond for circuitry.<BR>
> On the other hand, some folks say you can't get diamond to act as a<BR>
> semiconductor. I don't know who is correct. But I've also heard talk of<BR>
> depositring silicon circuitry on a diamond substrate because diamond<BR>
> conducts heat better.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall that the band gap of diamond is about 5.4 eV, while the<BR>
band gap of silicon is about 1.1 eV. I suppose that you could put bunch of<BR>
different impurities in diamond, so that you could bridge the band gap with<BR>
a series of transitions, making it act like a strange semiconductor.  Making<BR>
this sounds really difficult to me, but then I'm not at an advanced TL.<BR>
<BR>
I think that blue diamonds, like the Hope Diamond, are an example of the<BR>
first step of this. I think that blue diamonds are blue because of a<BR>
nitrogen donor level somewhere in the band gap of diamond. I think that<BR>
yellow diamonds are yellow because of an acceptor impurity, but I can't<BR>
remember what.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:06:22 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
<BR>
Rupert mentions<BR>
>The way many US citizens<BR>
>think that the US is not a colonial power and that the population of<BR>
>the US far west doesn't count as colonisation (probably because it's<BR>
>not "overseas") amuses me.<BR>
<BR>
Any right thinking being suddenly realizes that Alaska is really a colony,<BR>
not a state, when they find out just HOW HUCH the feds restrict us. The<BR>
Feds came in and took over fish and wildlife management recently... in no<BR>
other state has the federal government said "Just becuase you've had done<BR>
things in a discriminatory method, we're taking over"; no, they typically<BR>
say "Correct it or we cut funds".<BR>
<BR>
Alaska is listed as a republic by type... hoever it really is a captive<BR>
govenrment.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav:<BR>
Are all captive governments listed as type 6 governments?<BR>
<BR>
I seriously doubt it. I figure many small multi-world polities were<BR>
admitted as a unit to the imperium, and thus have a count or viscount or<BR>
marquis in charge... and the member worlds might actually ahve various<BR>
forms of local government, with some other form extant interplanetary. Sort<BR>
of mini-versions of the Vegan Autonomous Region.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:16:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert mentions<BR>
> >The way many US citizens<BR>
> >think that the US is not a colonial power and that the population of<BR>
> >the US far west doesn't count as colonisation (probably because it's<BR>
> >not "overseas") amuses me.<BR>
> <BR>
> Any right thinking being suddenly realizes that Alaska is really a colony,<BR>
> not a state, when they find out just HOW HUCH the feds restrict us. The<BR>
> Feds came in and took over fish and wildlife management recently... in no<BR>
> other state has the federal government said "Just becuase you've had done<BR>
> things in a discriminatory method, we're taking over"; no, they typically<BR>
> say "Correct it or we cut funds".<BR>
<BR>
Most states are...As a Sourdough and a current resident of British<BR>
Columbia. I think the Feds stepping in has alot to do with the salmon<BR>
rights issue with the Canadian gov't. It's a major diplomatic issue here.<BR>
That's just a stab in the dark though. The Feds shouldn't have the power<BR>
to dictate that type of internal action...it's...it's....unamerican!<BR>
<BR>
> Alaska is listed as a republic by type... hoever it really is a captive<BR>
> govenrment.<BR>
<BR>
The US is technically a republic.<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav:<BR>
> Are all captive governments listed as type 6 governments?<BR>
> <BR>
> I seriously doubt it. I figure many small multi-world polities were<BR>
> admitted as a unit to the imperium, and thus have a count or viscount or<BR>
> marquis in charge... and the member worlds might actually ahve various<BR>
> forms of local government, with some other form extant interplanetary. Sort<BR>
> of mini-versions of the Vegan Autonomous Region.<BR>
> <BR>
> William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
> interface!"<BR>
> Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
> 533<BR>
> aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
> pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:16:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, William F. Hostman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert mentions<BR>
> >The way many US citizens<BR>
> >think that the US is not a colonial power and that the population of<BR>
> >the US far west doesn't count as colonisation (probably because it's<BR>
> >not "overseas") amuses me.<BR>
> <BR>
> Any right thinking being suddenly realizes that Alaska is really a colony,<BR>
> not a state, when they find out just HOW HUCH the feds restrict us. The<BR>
> Feds came in and took over fish and wildlife management recently... in no<BR>
> other state has the federal government said "Just becuase you've had done<BR>
> things in a discriminatory method, we're taking over"; no, they typically<BR>
> say "Correct it or we cut funds".<BR>
<BR>
Most states are...As a Sourdough and a current resident of British<BR>
Columbia. I think the Feds stepping in has alot to do with the salmon<BR>
rights issue with the Canadian gov't. It's a major diplomatic issue here.<BR>
That's just a stab in the dark though. The Feds shouldn't have the power<BR>
to dictate that type of internal action...it's...it's....unamerican!<BR>
<BR>
> Alaska is listed as a republic by type... hoever it really is a captive<BR>
> govenrment.<BR>
<BR>
The US is technically a republic.<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav:<BR>
> Are all captive governments listed as type 6 governments?<BR>
> <BR>
> I seriously doubt it. I figure many small multi-world polities were<BR>
> admitted as a unit to the imperium, and thus have a count or viscount or<BR>
> marquis in charge... and the member worlds might actually ahve various<BR>
> forms of local government, with some other form extant interplanetary. Sort<BR>
> of mini-versions of the Vegan Autonomous Region.<BR>
> <BR>
> William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
> interface!"<BR>
> Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
> 533<BR>
> aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
> pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:11:12 +1100<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: MT Question - oooohhhh it's tricky<BR>
<BR>
Okay dudes. General Life support costs are 2k a trip per stateroom (off<BR>
memory), which I assume covers expendables and replacement of scrubbers etc<BR>
(in Oz a scubber is a woman of <ahem> objectionable appearance/morals and<BR>
behavior).<BR>
<BR>
So if a ship is away from port for a long time - what space do additional<BR>
supplies take up per stateroom?<BR>
<BR>
Starting the clock.<BR>
<BR>
NOW.<BR>
<BR>
- - Michael (free from SEC: UNCLASSIFIED constraints - the K is for Karen, my<BR>
lovely)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:48:10 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Color of diamonds (was *factual error*)<BR>
<BR>
Previously I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I think that blue diamonds, like the Hope Diamond, are an example of the<BR>
> first step of this. I think that blue diamonds are blue because of a<BR>
> nitrogen donor level somewhere in the band gap of diamond. I think that<BR>
> yellow diamonds are yellow because of an acceptor impurity, but I can't<BR>
> remember what.<BR>
<BR>
Oops. That's switched. Blue is from boron, yellow is from nitrogen. The gap<BR>
to the boron impurity is actually about 0.4 eV, so that blue diamonds<BR>
actually conduct fairly well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:09:20 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>You know, reading the CTCE1, I'm getting interested in actually <BR>
>using the old rules, maybe with the BITS task system, and FFS <BR>
>for ships and equipment. <BR>
<BR>
Yep, there's a whole lot of good in those old books.  Almost <BR>
everything after MT simply didn't seem to have the same heart.<BR>
<BR>
Btw, BITS task system?  How does it work?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:09:15 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Feb 00, at 21:09, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For the folks who use the "it has to practically be part of you to go<BR>
> along" version, I'd restrain a teloprt by having lengths of aircraft cable<BR>
> or the like with one end made into a loop that's embedded in a flexible<BR>
> plastic pad several inches across. Peel the backing off the pad and slap<BR>
> it onto a patch of bare skin. Use an adhesive similar to superglue. One<BR>
> that unless you use the right solvent, it won't come off without removing<BR>
> a *serious* amount of skin. Clamp the other end to something solid and the<BR>
> teleport ain't going anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
You-re way too kind - in one game I was in the locals stopped <BR>
teleporting mages by ramming iron rods through their kness and bolting <BR>
them to the walls. No wonder the mages were allergic to iron.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:09:15 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Feb 00, at 21:02, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If you've ever read Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky", there's a bit of<BR>
> advice from the hero's big sister (who is an NCO or junior officer in an<BR>
> all female military unit) about when she needs a scout, she sends out a<BR>
> trooper in her underwear and carrying no weapon other than a knife. Being<BR>
> "under-dressed" that way makes you *really* sensitive to your surroundings<BR>
> (something I can attest to from personal experiences that I'm *not* going<BR>
> to give details of).<BR>
<BR>
She was a Captain. In that example Heinlein makes one mistakes, though -<BR>
 sis says that "...she blacken her skin if it isn't already..." which <BR>
misses an important point: skin, especially most dark skin is _shiny_, <BR>
so regardless of skin colour you should slap on cammo paint (that's why <BR>
most military cammo is matt - aside from some british stuff that is <BR>
wonderfully easy to get off, but shines like a grease slick).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:09:15 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 28 Feb 00, at 20:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> > So, why do whales, dolphins, etc breathe in before they dive?<BR>
> <BR>
> Because if they don't, they *won't* have *any* usable O2!<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but Ian just pointed out that seals exhale before they dive, and <BR>
gave a number of reasons, so I was wondering what advantages whales got <BR>
from not doing so to counter the loss of the benefits of exhalation <BR>
that the seals enjoy.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:38:14 -0000<BR>
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones.whitestar@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT Ship design questions?<BR>
<BR>
David Smart wrote:<BR>
>Bless you! This was *exactly* what I was looking for.<BR>
<BR>
You're welcome,<BR>
<BR>
>So if I'm using a high performance version of a 6G M-Drive, the ship's top<BR>
>accel is 9Gs? Also, can Hi-perf/lo-maint options be combined?<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't say that the max constant acceleration is 9G. (That breaks all the <BR>
known Traveller rules, doesn't it?) However, I would say that if you use the<BR>
Performance gain benefits from the Starship Operator's Manual, then I would<BR>
allow the figure to be increased UP TO 50% (for very short periods only - without<BR>
burning out the drive...). The real performance gain is in the weight and volume<BR>
being reduced...<BR>
<BR>
Lo Maintenance and Hi Performance, logically, shouldn't be combined. The lo<BR>
maint version uses robust parts which need no tuning. This is a complete <BR>
opposite to the Hi Perf drives, which need to be constantly tuned up.<BR>
<BR>
An analogy? Imagine trying to cross the states in a F1 car? It wouldn't get<BR>
too far before it needed tuning back up because perf had dropped significantly.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers<BR>
<BR>
Derrick<BR>
<BR>
Derrick Jones<BR>
St Helens, Lancashire, UK<BR>
http://www.btinternet.com/~dojones.whitestar<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:58:19 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> > If you've ever read Heinlein's "Tunnel in the<BR>
> Sky", there's a bit of<BR>
> > advice from the hero's big sister (who is an NCO<BR>
> or junior officer in an<BR>
> > all female military unit) about when she needs a<BR>
> scout, she sends out a<BR>
> > trooper in her underwear and carrying no weapon<BR>
> other than a knife. Being<BR>
> > "under-dressed" that way makes you *really*<BR>
> sensitive to your surroundings<BR>
<BR>
Of course,realisticly,this is just typical<BR>
pseudo-psychological Heinlein junk.<BR>
Soldiers do perform better if there are as many safety<BR>
measures in action as possible.Look for example the<BR>
pilot rescue proceddures:<BR>
air forces have realised long ago that their<BR>
multimillion $ planes are used more effective if their<BR>
pilots take more risks,knowing that  they will rescued<BR>
if something goes wrong.<BR>
A scout,likewise,performs better with adequate cammo<BR>
and self-protection weaponry.<BR>
Only Heinlein would think that you instantly get<BR>
better by undressing.Pathetic.<BR>
<BR>
For a Teleporter,that just means he would jump earlier<BR>
out of danger than if he was heavily armed and<BR>
armored,in which case he could hold the position<BR>
significantly longer when spotted.<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:04:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Superhero Campaingn<BR>
<BR>
We recently got some new Players,and decided to start<BR>
a new Campaign,searching for something different,so we<BR>
decided to play a Superhero Campaign with CT.<BR>
Does anyone did something remotly similar before?<BR>
Any good ideas?<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:36:58 -0500<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: CT Psionics Question<BR>
<BR>
John Hamilton wrote:<BR>
>For a Teleporter,that just means he would jump earlier <BR>
>out of danger than if he was heavily armed and <BR>
>armored,in which case he could hold the position <BR>
>significantly longer when spotted. <BR>
<BR>
Hold a position? What's the point of using your most<BR>
mobile unit to hold a position with? Especially since<BR>
armor only helps against stuff that mostly missed you.<BR>
<BR>
If they know what position you're holding, it's time to<BR>
not hold it any more...before it's not there any more.<BR>
<BR>
(Stellar tech and above, that is. Laser rifles, MP energy<BR>
weapons and anything that you call for on a radio will defeat<BR>
any armor a man can wear on a solid hit.)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:55:47 -0600 (EST)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Gearhead alert!<BR>
<BR>
For the gearhead who has everything:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.smad.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/store/bookstore/index2.html?E+smad<BR>
<BR>
Microcosm has taken their bookstore online. They specialize in technical<BR>
books on astronautics and spacecraft design, including their own<BR>
_Spacecraft Mission Analysis and Design_, which David Golden described<BR>
here several months ago.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:01:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
At 04:51 PM 2/29/2000 +1300, Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>On 28 Feb 00, at 19:32, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable... allows you to deliver penguins on<BR>
>> target out to a range of 1,000 meters-- gar-un-teed.<BR>
><BR>
>Well let's see the design sheet, then. Can't wait.<BR>
<BR>
The 100mm Penguin Cannon, Man Portable - Adelie<BR>
<BR>
To be honest, nobody knows why these were ever built. Found during a sweep<BR>
by Imperial Marines in the wake of the Solomani Rim War, these extremely<BR>
odd weapons were stored in a cave in Patagonia. There were over a hundred<BR>
examples of the weapon in cases, with several left in the open. Evidence at<BR>
the scene (loose feathers, fossilized beaks embedded in the walls)<BR>
suggested that the devices had actually been used at one point.<BR>
<BR>
The weapons themselves used a small 200 gram charge to loft the penguin<BR>
into flight. The weapons was designed for smaller-end Adelies. There are<BR>
clues that  a larger, 250mm vehicle mounted version had been consider for<BR>
bigger birds. In use the firer carried the ungainly weapon like a<BR>
recoilless rifle. The birds were breech loaded, requiring the aid of a<BR>
loader, and at least one "penguin-wrangler" to keep the ammo from wandering<BR>
away.<BR>
<BR>
In test firings on the Ross Coast (occupation duty in Antarctica was<BR>
boring, what can we say?), the PCMP-A was found to be able to send<BR>
waterfowl hurtling for well over a mile, although the effective range was<BR>
much shorter. When the penguin manages to hit the target beak-first, a<BR>
certain amount of armor-piercing is seen (GM: Roll 1d6, on a 1, the penguin<BR>
is treated as an armor-piercing round.)<BR>
<BR>
By 1013, public outcry lead by Mothers Against Grav Cycle Carnage caused<BR>
the Terran Occupation Force to ban the use of the PCMP-A. By that point,<BR>
the Marines had begun forming leagues and firing penguins into ocean<BR>
targets. Some of the penguins seemed to like this, and much money was<BR>
exchanged in bets on the better trained birds.<BR>
<BR>
After the ban, the remaining weapons were sold to Gridlore Technologies,<BR>
LIC for further examination. One weapon remained with the 4545th Line<BR>
Marine Regiment as a trophy, and one was forwarded to the Emperor as a gift.<BR>
<BR>
ammo note: This works best with a penguin about 40cm high by about 10cm<BR>
across. Trying to stuff a larger penguin into the PCMP could be dangerous,<BR>
not mention messy. <BR>
<BR>
There are rumors of a "cannister" round for the PCMP-A that instead of<BR>
loading a single, or "slug" penguin, has several Fairy Penguins in a<BR>
carrier shell.<BR>
<BR>
The Penguin Cannon, Man Portable - Adelie<BR>
<BR>
GURPS<BR>
<BR>
Type	DMG	SS	Acc	1/2D	Max	Wt.	RoF	Shots<BR>
Cr.	6d6	16	5	500	7100	16.4 lb	 1	  1<BR>
<BR>
ST	Rcl	Cost	TL	DR	HT<BR>
9	-2	$78	late 7	5	7<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Traveller 4th ed.<BR>
<BR>
Penetr.	TL	Range	Shots	Mass	Reload	Cost	Armor<BR>
  4	9	Short	  1	7.4kg	2.9kg	Cr78	2<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Traveller New Era<BR>
<BR>
ROF	TL	Dam	Pen	Bulk	Mag	Rcl-SS	Brst	Rng<BR>
 1	9	 4	2-2-3	 8	1i	  3	 -	18<BR>
<BR>
Mass	Reload	Cost	Armor	Dm.box<BR>
7.4kg	2.9kg	78Cr	 4	 18<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
MegaTraveller<BR>
<BR>
Rds	TL	Pen	Atten	Range	Dmg	Autofire	D.spc.<BR>
 1	9	 3	  3	Medium	 3	   -		  -<BR>
<BR>
Sig	Recoil	Diff. as	Cost	Mass<BR>
Med	Med	 Rifle		78Cr	10.3kg<BR>
<BR>
- - - -<BR>
<BR>
Designer's notes:<BR>
<BR>
This was done with the 3G3 spreadsheet, a great tool. The hardest part was<BR>
trying to get a proper density for penguin! They sort of float, so I set it<BR>
at 1. 40cm is a bit small for an Adelie, but the real 40cm penguins are<BR>
truly ugly SOBs called Goat Penguins. No way was my great weaponry going to<BR>
sullied by them!<BR>
<BR>
The weapon worked out to be about four feet long, with almost no barrel to<BR>
speak of. I deliberately kept the weapon inaccurate, simply because I find<BR>
the image of penguins being flung wildly over the battlefield amusing.<BR>
<BR>
By the way, Fairy Penguins are a real species, and the smallest waterfowl<BR>
in the world. Amazing little birds.<BR>
<BR>
"Load!" "Squawk?" *CLANK* "Up!" "On The Way!" "SQQUUAAAAAaaacckkk....."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1978<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1979</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1979<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Additional Supplies for Life Support<BR>
Supplies for Life Support Correction<BR>
Re: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
Re: Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
RE: space ecosystems<BR>
15mm Traveller minis on EBay<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
re: CT Psionics Question<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: PGMP-Adelie (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:07:47 -0600<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the delay in responding.<BR>
You might try a version of democratic state based upon a<BR>
trading association such as the Hanseatic League or the<BR>
semi-autonomous groupings of the Agean/Greek City-states<BR>
during the time when Athens was pretending to be just first<BR>
amoung equals rather than leading city of an empire.<BR>
<BR>
A functional democratic state in an interstellar context would require<BR>
not only an economic rationale of some recurring importance (eg a<BR>
particularly viable trading route or a valuable mineral resource. An example<BR>
of which might be the worm-holes junctions of the Star Kingdom of Manticore<BR>
in the David Weber - Honor Harrington series of novels) as well as an<BR>
ideological<BR>
or philisophical urgency as well. I seem to recall a somewhat damp tea part<BR>
y in this<BR>
vein.<BR>
<BR>
I've a couple of small states already worked up for this concept. If I can<BR>
be on<BR>
any assistance. Please advise.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton<BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:49:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Additional Supplies for Life Support<BR>
<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: MT Question - oooohhhh it's tricky<BR>
<BR>
Okay dudes. General Life support costs are 2k a trip per stateroom (off<BR>
memory), which I assume covers expendables and replacement of scrubbers<BR>
etc<BR>
<snip><BR>
So if a ship is away from port for a long time - what space do<BR>
additional<BR>
supplies take up per stateroom?<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
We just happened to Hash this to death recently in our PBEM game.<BR>
<BR>
Life support cost cr 2,000 per trip with 1 trip = 2 weeks so it's really<BR>
cr 1,000 per week.<BR>
<BR>
A ship has life support "supply" space built in for it's rated<BR>
endurance.  In Our TU ships have a 6 week endurance standard so we can<BR>
put in supplies for 6 weeks at no additional tonnage.  Most ships have a<BR>
4 week endurance under High Guard, I usually build warships with an 8<BR>
week endurance (double power plant fuel requirements).  Supplies include<BR>
food (fresh and packaged), water (and other drinks), spare parts, and<BR>
other ship board consumables (duct tape?).<BR>
<BR>
We decided after much debate (and using real world Naval supply<BR>
calculations) that cr 1000 @ .16 dtons per person per week is what<BR>
standard supplies cost and weigh.  We also invented Long Endurance<BR>
Supply Materials at cr 3000 @ .16 dtons per person per week for long<BR>
range exploration missions.  LESM's are not suitable for High-Mid<BR>
passengers (MRE's and whatnot).<BR>
<BR>
We are using stripped staterooms to increase our built in supply above<BR>
and beyond our standard storage + our cargo bay capacity which our GM<BR>
ruled at about 2 tons per stateroom.<BR>
<BR>
I also read somewhere (Signal GK I think) that you can store 100 Kilo's<BR>
in a standard stateroom using built in closets, etc. Anything else goes<BR>
in the cargo bay.<BR>
<BR>
It works for us, hope it helps you out.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:54:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Supplies for Life Support Correction<BR>
<BR>
>We decided after much debate (and using real world Naval supply<BR>
>calculations) that cr 1000 @ .16 dtons per person per week is what<BR>
>standard supplies cost and weigh.  We also invented Long Endurance<BR>
>Supply Materials at cr 3000 @ .16 dtons per person per week for long<BR>
>range exploration missions.  LESM's are not suitable for High-Mid<BR>
>passengers (MRE's and whatnot).<BR>
<BR>
Correction,  LESM's are good for 2 weeks of supply at cr 3000 and .16<BR>
dtons.<BR>
<BR>
- -Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:04:07 -0500<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: space ecosystems (longish)<BR>
<BR>
This is drifting off topic, but...<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Try just closing your mouth at a random moment and see how long you can<BR>
> hold your breath. Then *inhale* and try holding your breath. Finally,<BR>
> try taking several deep breaths (flushing most of the dead air from<BR>
> your lungs, and "pumping" some extra O2 into your system) and see how<BR>
> long you can hold your breath.<BR>
<BR>
Uh, nope. The level of O2 in your blood levels off pretty quickly - <BR>
one breath in or twenty, it's about the same.<BR>
<BR>
The breathing reflex is triggered by CO2 levels, not O2, and what <BR>
near-hyperventilation does is lower CO2 levels, thus reducing the breathing<BR>
reflex.<BR>
<BR>
If you've scuba dived, they teach about a phenomenon called "shallow<BR>
water blackout". Skin divers hyperventilate and dive fairly deep underwater<BR>
(maybe 30-60 feet). The CO2 levels are low enough so that they can hold their<BR>
breath for a while. As they go deeper, the solubility of O2 in their <BR>
blood decreases, giving them some extra "free" O2 that was previously<BR>
dissolved in the liquid of their blood, not in blood cells.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that when they come up, the solubility increases again,<BR>
creating a sudden drop in blood oxygen levels, causing them to black out<BR>
when they return to shallow water.<BR>
<BR>
So, the moral of the story is, take some O2 wherever you go. Your body<BR>
is really incapable of judging how much oxygen is available to it,<BR>
it only goes by CO2.<BR>
<BR>
> Note that the "several deep breaths" bit can lead to hyperventilation,<BR>
> which is *not* good. So there's a limit.<BR>
<BR>
I dunno. Hyperventilation might make you dizzy, but it shouldn't kill you<BR>
or anything.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:04:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re US Colonialism [OT]<BR>
<BR>
At 10:06 PM 2/28/2000 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Any right thinking being suddenly realizes that Alaska is really a colony,<BR>
>not a state, when they find out just HOW HUCH the feds restrict us. The<BR>
>Feds came in and took over fish and wildlife management recently... in no<BR>
>other state has the federal government said "Just becuase you've had done<BR>
>things in a discriminatory method, we're taking over"; no, they typically<BR>
>say "Correct it or we cut funds".<BR>
<BR>
The Feds sent in troops to enforce integration in the South, and in serval<BR>
cases removed entire school boards.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 06:07:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
At 12:51 AM 2/29/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 2/28/00 6:54:39 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
>gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< But the best names came from the US WWII submarine fleet.<BR>
<BR>
>Yeah; but did you ever read about some of the stunts the skippers of some of <BR>
>these boats pulled; impressive... BTW; add Harder and Tang to the list...:-)<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I am in awe of anybody who does down to the sea in those boats. After<BR>
my tour of the USS San Francisco last year, I went to see the WWII sub we<BR>
have at Aquatic Park. My God, you couldn't convince me to cross the Bay in<BR>
this thing, let alone sail into waters where several thousand people wanted<BR>
to drop explosives on you!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:58:19 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
I said:<BR>
>Animals such as seals exhale before diving<BR>
<BR>
so Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
>So, why do whales, dolphins, etc breathe in before they dive?<BR>
<BR>
and Leonard Erickson responded:<BR>
>Because if they don't, they *won't* have *any* usable O2!<BR>
<BR>
leading Rupert to say:<BR>
>Yes, but Ian just pointed out that seals exhale before they dive,<BR>
>and gave a number of reasons, so I was wondering what advantages<BR>
>whales got from not doing so to counter the loss of the benefits<BR>
>of exhalation that the seals enjoy.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure if whales exhale before diving or not.  The<BR>
	(limited) sources that I checked suggest that they might,<BR>
	but it has not been established.  What is known is that<BR>
	the upper airways of whales are large and rigid, so that<BR>
	as the whale dives a lot of air will be forced out of the<BR>
	lungs and into these passages where there is little gas<BR>
	exchange with the blood.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:55:48 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: 15mm Traveller minis on EBay<BR>
<BR>
I noticed that someone is auctioning off Traveller minis on EBay,<BR>
Vargr & Human soldiers. It was up to $10.50 when I looked for 32<BR>
figures total. I remember someone asking about these, and I haven't<BR>
seen them very often.<BR>
<BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=269190102<BR>
is the link.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 16:34:02 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In message <3.0.5.16.20000226212802.4777b92a@pop.mindspring.com>,<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes<BR>
>My "proclivities" consist of relationships with consenting adults. I am<BR>
>deeply offended that you seem to be believe that just because I am bi and<BR>
>open about it that I am a potential child molester.<BR>
<BR>
No - one may be a potential child molester because one may be alone with<BR>
young children.<BR>
<BR>
I have another hobby (bell-ringing) in which I am in charge of several<BR>
church towers and the teaching of learners (mainly minors).  We have<BR>
child protection guidelines - more than one adult present at all times,<BR>
police check on adults in authority, etc which are there for *my*<BR>
protection as well as the minors.<BR>
<BR>
It is very easy for accusations to be made, reputations ruined, and the<BR>
police called in (as happened in a well-publicised case recently) with<BR>
no charges laid.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing untoward may be happening, but when I read your first posting it<BR>
was apparent to me that, *in the absence of further information*, the<BR>
circumstances and content of the situation you described made me feel<BR>
very uneasy, if only for the problems you *might* have been causing for<BR>
yourself.<BR>
<BR>
Posted, not emailed, as I think the content is worth bearing in mind for<BR>
all gamers who game with minors.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:57:15 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: CT Psionics Question<BR>
<BR>
- --- "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> wrote:<BR>
> John Hamilton wrote:<BR>
> >For a Teleporter,that just means he would jump<BR>
> earlier <BR>
> >out of danger than if he was heavily armed and <BR>
> >armored,in which case he could hold the position <BR>
> >significantly longer when spotted. <BR>
> <BR>
> Hold a position? What's the point of using your most<BR>
> mobile unit to hold a position with? Especially<BR>
> since<BR>
> armor only helps against stuff that mostly missed<BR>
> you.<BR>
> <BR>
> If they know what position you're holding, it's time<BR>
> to<BR>
> not hold it any more...before it's not there any<BR>
> more.<BR>
<BR>
Holding your position to FULLFILL YOUR TASK,whatever<BR>
it may be.<BR>
Let's say an average Teleporter has 7 Psi Points.He<BR>
needs 4 to get to the target area, and the rest to<BR>
retreat.INSIDE THE OPERATION AREA,he is effectivly not<BR>
more mobile than a standard infantryman;he just have a<BR>
get-out-of-jail-card to go away(but cannot come back<BR>
for several hours).Of course,if you need ,say ,5 or<BR>
more Points to reach the target,you'll want all the<BR>
arms you can get to hold position till you have enough<BR>
Psi Points to retreat.<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:00:50 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
At 09:16 28.02.00 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> [snip]<BR>
>>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think of anything that would be<BR>
>>>better than the importance of personal responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
>> very<BR>
>>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the resultant communications<BR>
>> lag. <BR>
>><BR>
>> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system, would it? A republic can be<BR>
>> built on personal responsibilty even better, since a local politician that<BR>
>> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a crisis will be removed after<BR>
>> his first election period. That's one thing much harder to do in a<BR>
>> feudalistic state...<BR>
><BR>
>Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
>setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of voluntarily entered into<BR>
>"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior and inferior lay out<BR>
>the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions, you know what I<BR>
actually meant.<BR>
<BR>
>So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can remove you.<BR>
<BR>
But that's a much harder political move to do than just waitng for new<BR>
elections. "Top-to-bottom" replacement of political officeholders is almost<BR>
always percepted as a personal punishment. In a feudal system, most vassals<BR>
were allied with others of the same level in the hierarchy- to ensure _not_<BR>
to be removed.<BR>
<BR>
>"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage over a republic. You<BR>
>know who is going to hold the position *years* in advance. As well as<BR>
>who will hold it if something happens to him. Which means you can<BR>
>*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of inherison as a principle<BR>
of succession over a republican style one. After all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without convincing the voters<BR>
that he /she can do the job. Typically, this is done by "climbing the<BR>
ladder" from town mayor to governor (or whatever provicial government there<BR>
might be, in France, for example, it's the mayor of Paris) up to a position<BR>
like secretary for defense or even president/chancellor/whatyouwant one day.<BR>
<BR>
I think the real point for the heir-type succession of power is that those<BR>
who own the power typically love their children more than the rest of the<BR>
population and want the as good a postion as they have- one day. <BR>
<BR>
Another reason might be belief in/knowledge of genetic inherison of certain<BR>
administrative or military skills or talents.<BR>
<BR>
Or perhaps strong personal loyalties of certain powerful individuals ("I<BR>
will serve you as I served your father. This is what I owe him.")<BR>
<BR>
(Some of these points two can be observed in North Korea, where some kind<BR>
of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting istself- the current leader<BR>
ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to me that the 3rd might<BR>
happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was asking was why the<BR>
distance (and the communication lag that is a result of it) should require<BR>
a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the local population. Okay,<BR>
here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are used to autocrats,<BR>
they would require extensive training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
_Has_ the 3I a constitution like most modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
about those minor states, even the larger ones of them. Human states, I<BR>
mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
<BR>
I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work, even for a quite large<BR>
TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can anyone help?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:58:01 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: PGMP-Adelie (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> did type:<BR>
<BR>
>At 04:51 PM 2/29/2000 +1300, Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>On 28 Feb 00, at 19:32, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable... allows you to deliver penguins on<BR>
>>> target out to a range of 1,000 meters-- gar-un-teed.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Well let's see the design sheet, then. Can't wait.<BR>
<BR>
>The 100mm Penguin Cannon, Man Portable - Adelie<BR>
<BR>
>To be honest, nobody knows why these were ever built. Found during a sweep<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Well now. Combined with a field full of curious penguins (or the Penguin <BR>
Generator from the current issue of Dragon), you could wreak much havok...<BR>
<BR>
 I have no problem imagining why these were built. Deep in the files, you<BR>
will find the initial Call for Designs spec'd and paid for by one "P. Opus"<BR>
during one of his rich periods...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:59:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" thir plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
Us fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:59:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" thir plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
Us fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1979<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1980</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1980<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:00:23 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" thir plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
Us fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:00:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" thir plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
Us fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:01:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" thir plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
Us fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:01:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" thir plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
Us fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:02:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" thir plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
US fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1980<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1981</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1981<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
Re: 15mm Traveller minis on EBay<BR>
Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: space ecosystems<BR>
re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU<BR>
Re: Your Ship Is POND SCUM;  TML #1977<BR>
Galactic usage question<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
The Vacc Leech (was re: Space Ecosystems)<BR>
re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU<BR>
Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU)<BR>
Traveller Sector Information<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:03:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
> of anything that would be<BR>
> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
> >> very<BR>
> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
> resultant communications<BR>
> >> lag.<BR>
 <BR>
The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >> But this wouldn't require a feudalistic system,<BR>
> would it? A republic can be<BR>
> >> built on personal responsibilty even better,<BR>
> since a local politician that<BR>
> >> doesn't at least _seem_ to be able to handle a<BR>
> crisis will be removed after<BR>
> >> his first election period. That's one thing much<BR>
> harder to do in a<BR>
> >> feudalistic state...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
> voluntarily entered into<BR>
> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
> and inferior lay out<BR>
> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
<BR>
This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
junk.We have problems with power abuse with people who<BR>
stay in power for just a few years."For Live" is a bad<BR>
description of goverment term.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, since youu know I confused these expressions,<BR>
> you know what I<BR>
> actually meant.<BR>
> <BR>
> >So if you can't go the job, your liege lord can<BR>
> remove you.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,exspecially if he's 2 years away.And what means<BR>
"wrong"?  <BR>
> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
> just waitng for new<BR>
> elections.<BR>
<BR>
Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
> over a republic. You<BR>
> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
> advance. As well as<BR>
> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
> means you can<BR>
> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
,heredetary rule.<BR>
For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
<BR>
<http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
> inherison as a principle<BR>
> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
> convincing the voters<BR>
> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
> of power is that those<BR>
> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
> than the rest of the<BR>
> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
> have- one day. <BR>
> <BR>
> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
<BR>
Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
 of<BR>
> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
> Korea, where some kind<BR>
> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
> istself- the current leader<BR>
> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
> me that the 3rd might<BR>
> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
<BR>
N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
> asking was why the<BR>
> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
> of it) should require<BR>
> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
> local population.<BR>
<BR>
No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
superiors.<BR>
<BR>
 Okay,<BR>
> here is a cultural reason- people in te Imperium are<BR>
> used to autocrats,<BR>
> they would require extensive<BR>
> training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
> Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of<BR>
> "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
> _Has_ the 3I a constitution like most<BR>
> modern-day-earth states?) But what a<BR>
> about those minor states, even the larger ones of<BR>
> them. Human states, I<BR>
> mean, or even with intermixed population. <BR>
> <BR>
> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
> even for a quite large<BR>
> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
> anyone help?<BR>
 <BR>
Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
explanation.It's just that.Look at the countless<BR>
"explanations" the writers of Star Trek have brought<BR>
up to "explain" their plot devices,e.g. why the<BR>
Federation(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
US fashion.) doesn't use the most advanced millitary<BR>
device,the Cloaking field,when even less advanced<BR>
states use it.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:09:26 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
At 9:01 -0500 29/2/00, John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
>Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >You know, reading the CTCE1, I'm getting interested in actually<BR>
> >using the old rules, maybe with the BITS task system, and FFS<BR>
> >for ships and equipment.<BR>
>Btw, BITS task system?  How does it work?<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Go to the Archives page<BR>
<BR>
Download the PDF file next to the Writer's Guidelines.<BR>
<BR>
*or*<BR>
<BR>
Order a copy of 'SpaceDogs' or 'The Khiidkar Incident' from SJ Games...<BR>
<BR>
All these places have copies...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:30:11 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
...<BR>
>this thing, let alone sail into waters where several thousand people wanted<BR>
>to drop explosives on you!<BR>
<BR>
  Was the USAAF really that envious of the money spent on the Navy? I <BR>
thought that mostly came later? :)<BR>
<BR>
  The ObTrav should be obvious...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:38:53 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 15mm Traveller minis on EBay<BR>
<BR>
>Subject: 15mm Traveller minis on EBay<BR>
...<BR>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=269190102<BR>
<BR>
  Ah, Martian Metals product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:53:25 -0600<BR>
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Re: I spent all afternoon digging through a box ( was  Re: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
In <200002290807.DAA09661@smtp6.mindspring.com>, on 02/29/00 <BR>
   at 12:09 AM, sneadj@mindspring.com said:<BR>
<BR>
>Btw, BITS task system?  How does it work?<BR>
<BR>
Well, my modified version of it for CT is...<BR>
<BR>
Target   Task<BR>
Number Description   <BR>
- ------------------<BR>
 4+     Easy  <BR>
 6+     Routine<BR>
 8+     Difficult <BR>
10+     Formidable<BR>
12+     Staggering<BR>
14+     Hopeless  <BR>
16+     Impossible<BR>
<BR>
Joe attempts a Formidable task of off road driving using his +2 ATV skill.<BR>
He needs to roll 10+ on 2d6+2 (42% chance).<BR>
<BR>
Suzanne attempts a Difficult task of Strength (7 div 5) as she tries to<BR>
open a jammed hatch. She needs to roll 8+ on 2d6+1 (58% chance).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:15:07 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: space ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry writes:<BR>
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>>try taking several deep breaths (flushing most of the dead air from<BR>
>>your lungs, and "pumping" some extra O2 into your system) and see how<BR>
>>long you can hold your breath.<BR>
>Uh, nope. The level of O2 in your blood levels off pretty quickly<BR>
>- one breath in or twenty, it's about the same.<BR>
<BR>
	Quite true, blood leaving the lungs is typically carrying<BR>
	over 98% of its maximum capacity.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Your body is really incapable of judging how much oxygen is<BR>
>available to it, it only goes by CO2.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Very nicely explained.  I will just add that your body does<BR>
	have sensors that warn you if O2 levels have dropped much<BR>
	too low.  The problem is that "much too low" is just before<BR>
	you pass out, so divers are in trouble if they are not very<BR>
	close to the surface when they reach this stage.<BR>
	Interestingly, the diver rising towards the surface may even<BR>
	loose O2 from the blood into the lungs as the pressure<BR>
	declines, making the drop in O2 levels in the blood very<BR>
	rapid indeed.<BR>
<BR>
	ObTrav: In a thin atmosphere, there is no problem loosing CO2,<BR>
	but picking up O2 is a problem.  This is where the O2 sensors<BR>
	above will kick in, stimulating an increase in ventilation.<BR>
	This increase in ventilation helps to compensate for the low<BR>
	O2 in the atmosphere, but it also drives down the CO2 levels<BR>
	in the blood, leading to blood alkilosis (altitude sickness).<BR>
	Thus, an increase in CO2 levels in a thin atmosphere might<BR>
	make it easier to breath (do NOT try this at home).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:25:02 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU<BR>
<BR>
john hamilton wrote:<BR>
>(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
>Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
>believable,presented as a decentralized democracy in<BR>
>Us fashion.) <BR>
<BR>
Well, the ST Federation has one major governmental advantage<BR>
over the 3I: subspace communications. It may take an hour<BR>
or a day to get a response from Starfleet Command or <BR>
the Federation Council, but you can still get them on the horn.<BR>
In the 3I, speed of communications is speed of jump, that's it.<BR>
You can manage a government much better with one day commo<BR>
lags than you can with half-year commo lags.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the Federation expanded diplomatically and economically,<BR>
into areas that had not, historically, had any major interstellar<BR>
polities. The 3I expanded into an area that had been conquered<BR>
at least twice, and built (at least culturally) upon the heritage of<BR>
interstellar domination established by the Ziru Sirka and the Rule<BR>
of Man.<BR>
<BR>
Cloaking devices, that's a whole 'nother set of handwaves. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:31:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re: Your Ship Is POND SCUM;  TML #1977<BR>
<BR>
Fellow TMLers:<BR>
<BR>
Annic Nova has just taken on a new meaning and new problems!<BR>
<BR>
Now how 'bout an "explosive" atmosphere in the hydroponics bay?<BR>
<BR>
Swamp gas did he say?  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,<BR>
pi+, ta+, <BR>
		as+, va+, dr+, _sa_, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, _hu_ <BR>
			(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:21:46 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Galactic usage question<BR>
<BR>
hi!<BR>
<BR>
I've just downloaded the Galactic program. I entered "gal" on the command<BR>
line, and got the following error message:<BR>
<BR>
Error #76 detected around line 5550. Now Exiting Galactic.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe there is some kind of command line option I should use? Haven't found<BR>
any help or readme file to exlain it.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance,<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 20:33:31 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
At 08:07 29.02.00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>You might try a version of democratic state based upon a<BR>
>trading association such as the Hanseatic League or the<BR>
>semi-autonomous groupings of the Agean/Greek City-states<BR>
>during the time when Athens was pretending to be just first<BR>
>amoung equals rather than leading city of an empire.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, what I had in mind was a more modern version of this. A stronger<BR>
central government than in the examples you describe. It calls itsself an<BR>
alliance- but is rather a democratic federation. <BR>
<BR>
>A functional democratic state in an interstellar context would require<BR>
>not only an economic rationale of some recurring importance (eg a<BR>
>particularly viable trading route or a valuable mineral resource. <BR>
<BR>
Well, I used the very 3I as this rationale, though more an ideologic one:<BR>
The external threat of the newly-founded 3I helped to meld together several<BR>
democratic planetary gouvernments. Perhaps _roughly_ comparable to founding<BR>
the EU today, with all the developments probably to come.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>I've a couple of small states already worked up for this concept. If I can<BR>
>be on<BR>
>any assistance. Please advise.<BR>
<BR>
I have several smaller states in MTU which I haven't yet developed. Perhaps<BR>
you could post some  descriptions of these interstellar states here on the<BR>
TML? (since I think it might be interesting for more than only me)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:52:46 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: The Vacc Leech (was re: Space Ecosystems)<BR>
<BR>
With regard to my earlier post about space critters reproducing rapidly<BR>
under certain conditions:<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking of desert life on Earth. I lot of it has to breed and spread<BR>
as fast as possible before a short window of useful environmental<BR>
conditions closes.<BR>
<BR>
Then there's deep-sea life, some of which is adapted to an environment<BR>
where no food is found for a very long time, then a massive amount of<BR>
food is found all at once. Some of these critters can shut down body<BR>
parts to the point of atrophy, then regenerate them later when food is<BR>
available. When they do find food, they devour amazing amounts of it...<BR>
that's what some of those huge-jawed, tiny-bodied deep sea fish are<BR>
all about.<BR>
<BR>
So, an example...<BR>
<BR>
The Vacc Leech<BR>
<BR>
This critter is tiny, about fingernail-sized, and consists of a living core<BR>
surrounded by an articulated silicate shell. The shell is sealed by a<BR>
waxy excretion generated by the creature from organic compounds<BR>
upon which it feeds. It's metabolism is poorly understood, as it is<BR>
(thankfully) somewhat rare. It moves in microgravity environments<BR>
by clinging to asteroids and other space debris, moving by crawling<BR>
along the surface with it's movable silicoid carapace. It is suspected<BR>
to spread to other bodies by drifting, as no propulsion system has been<BR>
detected.<BR>
<BR>
The Vacc Leech is notorious for it's habit of latching on to the exterior<BR>
fabric of some types of vacc suits, especially on the articulation joints<BR>
and the tubes associated with environmnental systems. When in contact<BR>
with the fabric, the Leech begins devouring the material at an amazing<BR>
rate for it's size, through a combination of mechanical rasping and<BR>
chemical action. While in this feeding frenzy, the Leech is almost<BR>
continually giving off "spores", which appear to be fragments of it's external<BR>
silicate shell. Penetration of a standard Vacc Suit can take place in <BR>
a matter of minutes.<BR>
<BR>
Luckily, exposure to a normal-pressure oxygen atmosphere will kill these<BR>
creatures immediately, and is shown to be 95%+ effective in killing their<BR>
spores as well.<BR>
<BR>
Belters in areas where these creatures are found will generally use<BR>
specially formulated protective coatings on the exterior of their vacc<BR>
suits, requiring more frequent maintenance at a moderately higher cost.<BR>
Certain high-tech vacc suits and armored spacesuits have shown<BR>
themselves to be unpalatable to these tiny hazards as well.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:07:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU<BR>
<BR>
- --- Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote:<BR>
> john hamilton wrote:<BR>
> >(BTW,The Fed  in ST  has basicly the same<BR>
> >Travel time from end to end as the 3T.It's ,more<BR>
> >believable,presented as a decentralized democracy<BR>
> in<BR>
> >Us fashion.) <BR>
> <BR>
> Well, the ST Federation has one major governmental<BR>
> advantage<BR>
> over the 3I: subspace communications. It may take an<BR>
> hour<BR>
> or a day to get a response from Starfleet Command or<BR>
> <BR>
> the Federation Council, but you can still get them<BR>
> on the horn.<BR>
> In the 3I, speed of communications is speed of jump,<BR>
> that's it.<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't matter how fast information ,but ENFORCMENT<BR>
travels.<BR>
<BR>
> You can manage a government much better with one day<BR>
> commo<BR>
> lags than you can with half-year commo lags.<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, the Federation expanded diplomatically and<BR>
> economically,<BR>
> into areas that had not, historically, had any major<BR>
> interstellar<BR>
> polities. The 3I expanded into an area that had been<BR>
> conquered<BR>
> at least twice, and built (at least culturally) upon<BR>
> the heritage of<BR>
> interstellar domination established by the Ziru<BR>
> Sirka and the Rule<BR>
> of Man.<BR>
<BR>
In this case democracy can't exist on Earth,cause all<BR>
ststes were founded as dictatorships/monarchies<BR>
,whatever.<BR>
Well,that it must be an autocracy cause it was<BR>
formerly ruled by an autocracy worries me,cuse when<BR>
I'm looking out of the window of the room i'm writing<BR>
this I see a place where once hords of SS men paraded.............<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:31:09 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU)<BR>
<BR>
john hamilton wrote:<BR>
>It doesn't matter how fast information ,but ENFORCMENT<BR>
>travels.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on the society. The Imperium keeps the peace internally<BR>
mainly through force, the Federation mainly through diplomacy and <BR>
compromise. The former needs to move police forces, the latter needs<BR>
to move information.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, what (internally) does the Federation have to enforce? It's<BR>
a voluntary organization, planets ask to join and can leave whenever<BR>
they want to. The benefits of staying in are what keeps the Federation<BR>
together, not the rapid dispatch of battlecruisers.<BR>
<BR>
As for outside threats, enforcement of borders can only travel as fast<BR>
as the information needed to find out where to send the defense fleets.<BR>
<BR>
john again:<BR>
>In this case democracy can't exist on Earth,cause all<BR>
>ststes were founded as dictatorships/monarchies<BR>
>,whatever.<BR>
>Well,that it must be an autocracy cause it was<BR>
>formerly ruled by an autocracy worries me,cuse when<BR>
>I'm looking out of the window of the room i'm writing<BR>
>this I see a place where once hords of SS men paraded....<BR>
<BR>
I see a significant difference between the 3I retaking territories it<BR>
claimed from old, and the Federation making friendly, consensual<BR>
overtures to new members. Planets got a choice about whether to join<BR>
the Federation or not. No such choice has to be offered by that Imperial<BR>
battlefleet overhead. <BR>
<BR>
The 3I emplaced autocracies because it was like a conquering army,<BR>
the Federation has democratic processes because it has the history<BR>
and communications capability to do so.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:09:35 -0600<BR>
From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Sector Information<BR>
<BR>
Now on the web at http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html (Don's<BR>
Traveller Site):<BR>
<BR>
The current "Published Traveller Sector Information" list...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
DonM.<BR>
- --<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
= Donald E. McKinney, ConfigMgt 3x Team Lead       dmckinne@amdocs.com =<BR>
= Amdocs Ltd., 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL            (217) 351-8250 =<BR>
= Winter War 28 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 2-4, 2001 =<BR>
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ =<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:15:41 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Feb 00, at 6:01, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:51 PM 2/29/2000 +1300, Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> wrote: > >On 28 Feb 00, at 19:32, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable... allows you to deliver penguins<BR>
> >> on target out to a range of 1,000 meters-- gar-un-teed.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Well let's see the design sheet, then. Can't wait.<BR>
> <BR>
> The 100mm Penguin Cannon, Man Portable - Adelie<BR>
> <BR>
> To be honest, nobody knows why these were ever built. Found during a sweep<BR>
> by Imperial Marines in the wake of the Solomani Rim War, these extremely<BR>
> odd weapons were stored in a cave in Patagonia. There were over a hundred<BR>
> examples of the weapon in cases, with several left in the open. Evidence<BR>
> at the scene (loose feathers, fossilized beaks embedded in the walls)<BR>
> suggested that the devices had actually been used at one point.<BR>
> <BR>
> The weapons themselves used a small 200 gram charge to loft the penguin<BR>
> into flight. The weapons was designed for smaller-end Adelies. There are<BR>
> clues that  a larger, 250mm vehicle mounted version had been consider for<BR>
> bigger birds. In use the firer carried the ungainly weapon like a<BR>
> recoilless rifle. The birds were breech loaded, requiring the aid of a<BR>
> loader, and at least one "penguin-wrangler" to keep the ammo from<BR>
> wandering away.<BR>
> <BR>
> In test firings on the Ross Coast (occupation duty in Antarctica was<BR>
> boring, what can we say?), the PCMP-A was found to be able to send<BR>
> waterfowl hurtling for well over a mile, although the effective range was<BR>
> much shorter. When the penguin manages to hit the target beak-first, a<BR>
> certain amount of armor-piercing is seen (GM: Roll 1d6, on a 1, the<BR>
> penguin is treated as an armor-piercing round.)<BR>
> <BR>
> By 1013, public outcry lead by Mothers Against Grav Cycle Carnage caused<BR>
> the Terran Occupation Force to ban the use of the PCMP-A. By that point,<BR>
> the Marines had begun forming leagues and firing penguins into ocean<BR>
> targets. Some of the penguins seemed to like this, and much money was<BR>
> exchanged in bets on the better trained birds.<BR>
> <BR>
> After the ban, the remaining weapons were sold to Gridlore Technologies,<BR>
> LIC for further examination. One weapon remained with the 4545th Line<BR>
> Marine Regiment as a trophy, and one was forwarded to the Emperor as a<BR>
> gift.<BR>
> <BR>
> ammo note: This works best with a penguin about 40cm high by about 10cm<BR>
> across. Trying to stuff a larger penguin into the PCMP could be dangerous,<BR>
> not mention messy. <BR>
> <BR>
> There are rumors of a "cannister" round for the PCMP-A that instead of<BR>
> loading a single, or "slug" penguin, has several Fairy Penguins in a<BR>
> carrier shell.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Penguin Cannon, Man Portable - Adelie<BR>
> <BR>
> GURPS<BR>
> <BR>
> Type	DMG	SS	Acc	1/2D	Max	Wt.	RoF	Shots<BR>
> Cr.	6d6	16	5	500	7100	16.4 lb	 1	  1<BR>
> <BR>
> ST	Rcl	Cost	TL	DR	HT<BR>
> 9	-2	$78	late 7	5	7<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Traveller 4th ed.<BR>
> <BR>
> Penetr.	TL	Range	Shots	Mass	Reload	Cost	Armor<BR>
>   4	9	Short	  1	7.4kg	2.9kg	Cr78	2<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Traveller New Era<BR>
> <BR>
> ROF	TL	Dam	Pen	Bulk	Mag	Rcl-SS	Brst	Rng<BR>
>  1	9	 4	2-2-3	 8	1i	  3	 -	18<BR>
> <BR>
> Mass	Reload	Cost	Armor	Dm.box<BR>
> 7.4kg	2.9kg	78Cr	 4	 18<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> MegaTraveller<BR>
> <BR>
> Rds	TL	Pen	Atten	Range	Dmg	Autofire	D.spc.<BR>
>  1	9	 3	  3	Medium	 3	   -		  -<BR>
> <BR>
> Sig	Recoil	Diff. as	Cost	Mass<BR>
> Med	Med	 Rifle		78Cr	10.3kg<BR>
> <BR>
> - - -<BR>
> <BR>
> Designer's notes:<BR>
> <BR>
> This was done with the 3G3 spreadsheet, a great tool. The hardest part was<BR>
> trying to get a proper density for penguin! They sort of float, so I set<BR>
> it at 1. 40cm is a bit small for an Adelie, but the real 40cm penguins are<BR>
> truly ugly SOBs called Goat Penguins. No way was my great weaponry going<BR>
> to sullied by them!<BR>
> <BR>
> The weapon worked out to be about four feet long, with almost no barrel to<BR>
> speak of. I deliberately kept the weapon inaccurate, simply because I find<BR>
> the image of penguins being flung wildly over the battlefield amusing.<BR>
> <BR>
> By the way, Fairy Penguins are a real species, and the smallest waterfowl<BR>
> in the world. Amazing little birds.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Load!" "Squawk?" *CLANK* "Up!" "On The Way!" "SQQUUAAAAAaaacckkk....."<BR>
<BR>
Very nice :) I must admit I'd never heard of Goat Penguins. Yellow <BR>
Eyed, Galapagos, Fairys, yes, but not Goats.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:27:06 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>If you've ever read Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky", there's a <BR>
>bit of advice from the hero's big sister (who is an NCO or <BR>
>junior officer in an all female military unit) about when she <BR>
>needs a scout, she sends out a trooper in her underwear and <BR>
>carrying no weapon other than a  knife. <BR>
<BR>
"Carry a knife, but don't carry a gun.  You'll be tempted to<BR>
shoot back, and then you can be located and killed" or words to<BR>
that effect.<BR>
<BR>
Tunnel in the Sky was one of my early motivations to become a<BR>
lawyer.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1981<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1982</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, February 29 2000     Volume 1999 : Number 1982<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re:"Your Ship Is POND SCUM!"<BR>
another example<BR>
low-level teleportation (was Re: CT psionic question)<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
Re : Respiratory Physiology (was Space Ecosystems)<BR>
Re: Terran BattleshipsAt <BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
Re: PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
re:  The Vacc Leech (was re: Space Ecosystems)<BR>
Re: 15mm Traveller minis on EBay<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re:  Additional Supplies for Life Support<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: HIWG CD<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:28:47 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re:"Your Ship Is POND SCUM!"<BR>
<BR>
>Can't believe I missed this one. The full story is at:<BR>
>http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/hydrogen000222.html<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>- -- quote --<BR>
><BR>
>W A S H I N G T O N, Feb. 22 - Hydrogen may<BR>
>become an ideal fuel when the supply of oil and<BR>
>natural gas runs out, but the problem has been<BR>
>finding a way to produce it cheaply. Scientists<BR>
>now say the answer may be ordinary pond scum.<BR>
><BR>
>Green algae, a simple plant that grows all over the<BR>
>world, has the unique ability to convert water and<BR>
>sunlight into hydrogen gas, researchers said Monday<BR>
>at the national meeting of the American Association<BR>
>for the Advancement of Science. <BR>
><BR>
>Scientists have found a new way to force the algae to<BR>
>make hydrogen gas on demand, a process that could lead<BR>
>to an almost limitless supply of fuel that burns without<BR>
>pollution and produces only water as a waste product...<BR>
><BR>
>- -- endquote --<BR>
<BR>
Ah-hah. Who said we needed power to get hydrogen from water?<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost <BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:25:24 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: another example<BR>
<BR>
>I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
>there who believe this junk.Perhaps they see<BR>
>themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
>duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
>,heredetary rule.<BR>
>For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
>birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
><http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
<BR>
Even more pathetic...  http://albore.homepage.com/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he<BR>
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to<BR>
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'"<BR>
Deborah Orin in the New York Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore<BR>
drank champagne with Chinese Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the<BR>
Tiananmen massacre.   http://albore.homepage.com/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:44:40 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: low-level teleportation (was Re: CT psionic question)<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall this subject having been discussed before.  HIWG<BR>
has a nice monograph proposing an explanation of psionics that<BR>
largely comports with physics.  If I find it I'll post some<BR>
excerpts or a summary.  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Most SF figures that you have to be able to take anything in <BR>
>close contact with you, or not go at all. Thus the practice of <BR>
>close fitting ankle chains attached to the floor/wall. For the <BR>
>folks who use the "it has to practically be part of you to go <BR>
>along" version, I'd restrain a teloprt by having lengths of <BR>
>aircraft cable or the like with one end made into a loop that's<BR>
<BR>
>embedded in a flexible plastic pad several inches across. Peel <BR>
>the backing off the pad and slap it onto a patch of bare skin. <BR>
>Use an adhesive similar to superglue. One that unless you use <BR>
>the right solvent, it won't come off without removing a <BR>
>*serious* amount of skin. Clamp the other end to something <BR>
>solid and the teleport ain't going anywhere. <BR>
<BR>
I don't think even that would work.  The problem for a<BR>
teleporter (teleport? teleportist? what do we call them?) is<BR>
bringing something along besides the body.  The adhesive itself<BR>
is not part of the body, and even if it feels like body, the<BR>
teleporter will know that it is not and so would have to work<BR>
hard to convince him/herself that it was and could be<BR>
teleported.  Conversely, it would be easy to acknowledge that it<BR>
was a foreign object and could be left behind.  <BR>
<BR>
Ways to restrain a teleport include (1) keeping him/her<BR>
unconscious; (2) keeping him/her in motion so fast with respect<BR>
to any place in range that teleportation would be too dangerous<BR>
to attempt; (3) keeping him/her out of range of places that<BR>
he/she has seen and can teleport to (far orbit might work).  <BR>
<BR>
The crude at heart might consider injecting a poison and then<BR>
putting the antidote into an intravenous drip or into the prison<BR>
cell's atmosphere.  Teleport out and die; or am I just bluffing?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:52:57 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
>Okay, here is a cultural reason- people in the Imperium are used to<BR>
autocrats,<BR>
>they would require extensive training/indoctrination/education (like in<BR>
>Germany after WWII) before accepting another type of "constitution". (BTW:<BR>
>_Has_ the 3I a constitution like most modern-day-earth states?)<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium has the Warrant of Restoration, which is the Preamble to its<BR>
Constitution, and the Imperial Edicts. These are the basis of Imperial Law.<BR>
The Constitution set's up the position of Emperor, the formation of the<BR>
Moot, prohibits slavery, declares the extrality of starports, etc. There is<BR>
no mention of civil or personal rights (other than not to be a slave.)<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:54:11 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote :-<BR>
> Maybe I'm a wimp, but I find it very difficult to hold my<BR>
> breath for more than 90 seconds.  :x  Physiology texts which<BR>
> I consulted gave the "a little more than 1 minute" figure<BR>
> which I reported.  I don't know what the world record is,<BR>
<BR>
It's amazing how sources vary, isn't it?<BR>
By the way, the depth record for breath hold diving is 130m/428 ft by<BR>
Francisco Ferreras off the Mexican coast in 1996. He was only underwater<BR>
for 2 minutes, 11 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
> >Their tissue oxygen stores (myoglobin in muscle) are much larger than<BR>
> >those of terrestrial ones (the primary store in both cases is the<BR>
> >lungs).<BR>
> <BR>
> I hope that I am forgiven for waxing technical,<BR>
<snip of interesting data><BR>
> Still, muscle does not carry nearly<BR>
> as much O2 as blood: a typical human carries about 240 ml O2<BR>
> in 16 kg of muscle tissue, while a seal carries about 270 ml<BR>
> O2 in 6 kg of muscle tissue.<BR>
<BR>
Which illustrates my original point (15ml O2/kg vs 45 for the seal). I<BR>
readily concede that haemoglobin is the main player in oxygen storage,<BR>
and should have noted this for the sake of clarity.<BR>
<BR>
> >Muscle tissues of marine mammals also have a much greater density<BR>
> >of mitochondria.<BR>
> <BR>
>  Alas, physiology is not my strong suit.  How does this<BR>
>  influence breath-holding times?  Is it related to aerobic/<BR>
>  anaerobic pathways, metabolic rates, etc.?<BR>
Tissue oxygen extraction and utilisation is greatly enhanced. <BR>
For example, at rest in man, only a quarter of the oxygen delivered to<BR>
the tissues actually is used (arterial oxygen content 20mL O2/100mL<BR>
blood, venous 15).<BR>
<BR>
Using more of the oxygen available leads to a decreased ventilatory<BR>
requirement (at least in the short term - hypercarbia and the subsequent<BR>
acidosis limit this). <BR>
<BR>
> You will have to enlighten me about the Io-Jupiter flux tube,<BR>
> is it an area where gravetic forces increase the density of<BR>
> molecules, perhaps sucked up from Jupiter?<BR>
<BR>
It's a huge electric current arc between the two bodies ; the particle<BR>
density therein would be much larger than the surrounding space.<BR>
<BR>
> >I posted something similar to this when Charles Collin asked about<BR>
> >'vacuum flowers' last year.<BR>
> <BR>
> Oops, sorry.  No copywrite infringement was intended  :)<BR>
No apology required ; I just find it interesting that the periodicity of<BR>
topics on this list seems to average about 6-7 months.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:05:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
>>> PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable... allows you to deliver<BR>
<BR>
>>>penguins on target out to a range of 1,000 meters--<BR>
gar-un->>>teed.><BR>
>>Well let's see the design sheet, then. Can't wait.<BR>
<BR>
From Doug Berry:<BR>
>The 100mm Penguin Cannon, Man Portable - Adelie<BR>
[design specifications deleted]<BR>
<BR>
Doug, after careful review of the design specifications that you<BR>
posted, I have concluded that you are one sick and twisted<BR>
pervert, and you do us all proud.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
P.S. Do you remember the SPI swords & sorcery wargame whose name<BR>
I've forgotten that took place in a valley populated by various<BR>
mutually antagonistic races, some of which were armed with<BR>
Zeppelins?  If certain events were rolled, magic penguins<BR>
descended in a random walk from the north edge of the map and<BR>
demoralized any unit that got within two hexes of them.  I think<BR>
you could also summon the SS Wiking Panzergruppe under certain<BR>
circumstances.  It was one of my favorite games for a while.  <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:06:51 +1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Respiratory Physiology (was Space Ecosystems)<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry wrote :-<BR>
> Uh, nope. The level of O2 in your blood levels off pretty quickly -<BR>
> one breath in or twenty, it's about the same.<BR>
> <BR>
> The breathing reflex is triggered by CO2 levels, not O2, and what<BR>
> near-hyperventilation does is lower CO2 levels, thus reducing the breathing reflex.<BR>
<BR>
Correct.<BR>
> As they go deeper, the solubility of O2 in their<BR>
> blood decreases, giving them some extra "free" O2 that was previously<BR>
> dissolved in the liquid of their blood, not in blood cells.<BR>
><BR>
> The problem is that when they come up, the solubility increases again,<BR>
> creating a sudden drop in blood oxygen levels, causing them to black out<BR>
> when they return to shallow water.<BR>
??<BR>
The increase in pressure should increase oxygen carrying capacity, just<BR>
as it increases the solubility of other gases. <BR>
	Decompression leads to a form of 'diffusion hypoxia' - the nitrogen<BR>
dissolved in the blood is excreted into the lung, leading to a decreased<BR>
concentration of oxygen there which leads to arterial hypoxaemia,<BR>
cerebral hypoxia, and unconsciousness.<BR>
<BR>
> I dunno. Hyperventilation might make you dizzy, but it shouldn't kill you<BR>
> or anything.<BR>
Hyperventilation could lead to respiratory failure (work of breathing<BR>
exceeds energy available), or hypocarbia (decreased CO2 partial pressure<BR>
in the blood).<BR>
<BR>
The effects of a low carbon dioxide p. pressure in the blood include :-<BR>
- - depressed ventilatory drive ;<BR>
- - alteration in the affinity of haemoglobin for oxygen (so delivery of<BR>
oxygen to tissues is impaired) ;<BR>
- - alkalinisation of the blood leads to a fall in plasma ionised calcium<BR>
concentrations, which can lead to muscle spasms (especially of the hands<BR>
and feet), 'pins and needles' around the mouth.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote :-<BR>
> ObTrav: In a thin atmosphere, there is no problem loosing CO2,<BR>
> but picking up O2 is a problem.<BR>
Correct ; the ventilatory response to O2 is hyperbolic below an arterial<BR>
oxygen partial pressure of 50mmHg (~0.06 atm). An atmosphere with less<BR>
than about a third of the oxygen content of our own should suffice.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> but it also drives down the CO2 levels<BR>
> in the blood, leading to blood alkilosis (altitude sickness).<BR>
> Thus, an increase in CO2 levels in a thin atmosphere might<BR>
> make it easier to breath (do NOT try this at home).<BR>
Alkalosis has little to do with the pathogenesis of altitude sickness<BR>
per se.<BR>
An increase in CO2 levels in a thin atmosphere will aggravate<BR>
hypoxaemia, from the alveolar gas equation :-<BR>
<BR>
arterial partial pressure O2 = [(atmospheric pressure - saturated vapour<BR>
pressure of water at body temperature) X fractional concentration<BR>
oxygen] - (arterial partial pressure of CO2/respiratory quotient) +<BR>
small fudge factor ("F")<BR>
<BR>
Using CO2 as a ventilatory stimulant would have to be *very* carefully<BR>
done to prevent respiratory failure ; the adverse effects on the<BR>
cardiovascular system (increasing altitude = vigorous exercise,<BR>
essentially) could be significant.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:14:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran BattleshipsAt <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>After my tour of the USS San Francisco last year, I went to see<BR>
<BR>
>the WWII sub we have at Aquatic Park. My God, you couldn't <BR>
>convince me to cross the Bay in this thing, let alone sail into<BR>
<BR>
>waters where several thousand people wanted to drop explosives <BR>
>on you!<BR>
<BR>
The various ships of different tech levels on display around the<BR>
San Francisco Bay would make an excellent TravellerinSF outing<BR>
sometime.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:14:04 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:51 PM 2/29/2000 +1300, Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> On 28 Feb 00, at 19:32, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable... allows you to deliver penguins on<BR>
>>> target out to a range of 1,000 meters-- gar-un-teed.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Well let's see the design sheet, then. Can't wait.<BR>
> <BR>
> The 100mm Penguin Cannon, Man Portable - Adelie<BR>
> <BR>
> To be honest, nobody knows why these were ever built. Found during a sweep<BR>
> by Imperial Marines in the wake of the Solomani Rim War, these extremely<BR>
> odd weapons were stored in a cave in Patagonia. There were over a hundred<BR>
> examples of the weapon in cases, with several left in the open. Evidence at<BR>
> the scene (loose feathers, fossilized beaks embedded in the walls)<BR>
> suggested that the devices had actually been used at one point.<BR>
> <BR>
> The weapons themselves used a small 200 gram charge to loft the penguin<BR>
> into flight. The weapons was designed for smaller-end Adelies. There are<BR>
> clues that  a larger, 250mm vehicle mounted version had been consider for<BR>
> bigger birds. In use the firer carried the ungainly weapon like a<BR>
> recoilless rifle. The birds were breech loaded, requiring the aid of a<BR>
> loader, and at least one "penguin-wrangler" to keep the ammo from wandering<BR>
> away.<BR>
> <BR>
> In test firings on the Ross Coast (occupation duty in Antarctica was<BR>
> boring, what can we say?), the PCMP-A was found to be able to send<BR>
> waterfowl hurtling for well over a mile, although the effective range was<BR>
> much shorter. When the penguin manages to hit the target beak-first, a<BR>
> certain amount of armor-piercing is seen (GM: Roll 1d6, on a 1, the penguin<BR>
> is treated as an armor-piercing round.)<BR>
> <BR>
> By 1013, public outcry lead by Mothers Against Grav Cycle Carnage caused<BR>
> the Terran Occupation Force to ban the use of the PCMP-A. By that point,<BR>
> the Marines had begun forming leagues and firing penguins into ocean<BR>
> targets. Some of the penguins seemed to like this, and much money was<BR>
> exchanged in bets on the better trained birds.<BR>
> <BR>
> After the ban, the remaining weapons were sold to Gridlore Technologies,<BR>
> LIC for further examination. One weapon remained with the 4545th Line<BR>
> Marine Regiment as a trophy, and one was forwarded to the Emperor as a gift.<BR>
> <BR>
> ammo note: This works best with a penguin about 40cm high by about 10cm<BR>
> across. Trying to stuff a larger penguin into the PCMP could be dangerous,<BR>
> not mention messy.<BR>
> <BR>
> There are rumors of a "cannister" round for the PCMP-A that instead of<BR>
> loading a single, or "slug" penguin, has several Fairy Penguins in a<BR>
> carrier shell.<BR>
<BR>
Now I DARE you to design the equivalent of the Chicken Cannon! from Royal<BR>
Canadian Air Farce!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:21:10 +1000<BR>
From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
Subject: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Why does the Imperium outlaw slavery? Does this only apply to commerce between worlds, or does it mean that if the Imperium integrates a world with a Roman style of Government, they intervene to free all the slaves?<BR>
<BR>
I have just been reading Colleen McCullochs 'Caesar', and find it fascinating how the Roman Republic (soon to be empire) gained all its territory. A lot of the Roman leaders used to make money after putting down insurgent tribes by selling them into slavery. <BR>
<BR>
I am in no way suggesting that the Imperium should do this! I like the anti-slavery Laws (gives good potential for adveture hooks). I was just wondering how they would handle a world with institutionalised slavery. <BR>
<BR>
Scout<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:35:53<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
At 11:15 AM 3/1/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> This was done with the 3G3 spreadsheet, a great tool. The hardest part was<BR>
>> trying to get a proper density for penguin! They sort of float, so I set<BR>
>> it at 1. 40cm is a bit small for an Adelie, but the real 40cm penguins are<BR>
>> truly ugly SOBs called Goat Penguins. No way was my great weaponry going<BR>
>> to sullied by them!<BR>
<BR>
>Very nice :) I must admit I'd never heard of Goat Penguins. Yellow <BR>
>Eyed, Galapagos, Fairys, yes, but not Goats.<BR>
<BR>
Goat is another name for the Galapagos. They'll eat anything and are pretty<BR>
ugly as far as penguins go.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:27:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:05 PM 2/29/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Doug, after careful review of the design specifications that you<BR>
>posted, I have concluded that you are one sick and twisted<BR>
>pervert, and you do us all proud.<BR>
<BR>
*sniff*, You like me, you really like me!<BR>
<BR>
>P.S. Do you remember the SPI swords & sorcery wargame whose name<BR>
>I've forgotten that took place in a valley populated by various<BR>
>mutually antagonistic races, some of which were armed with<BR>
>Zeppelins?  If certain events were rolled, magic penguins<BR>
>descended in a random walk from the north edge of the map and<BR>
>demoralized any unit that got within two hexes of them.  I think<BR>
>you could also summon the SS Wiking Panzergruppe under certain<BR>
>circumstances.  It was one of my favorite games for a while.  <BR>
<BR>
You mean Swords & Sorcery? :P<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:28:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Heaven & Earth<BR>
<BR>
At 06:14 PM 2/29/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Now I DARE you to design the equivalent of the Chicken Cannon! from Royal<BR>
>Canadian Air Farce!<BR>
<BR>
I would never undertake such a fowl task as this.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:33:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  The Vacc Leech (was re: Space Ecosystems)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
>Subject: The Vacc Leech (was re: Space Ecosystems)<BR>
<BR>
I liked this Bestiary entry!<BR>
<BR>
>So, an example...The Vacc Leech<BR>
>This critter is tiny, about fingernail-sized, and consists of a<BR>
<BR>
>living core surrounded by an articulated silicate shell. The <BR>
[deletion]<BR>
<BR>
>The Vacc Leech is notorious for it's habit of latching on to <BR>
>the exterior fabric of some types of vacc suits, especially on <BR>
>the articulation joints and the tubes associated with <BR>
[deletion]<BR>
<BR>
>Luckily, exposure to a normal-pressure oxygen atmosphere will <BR>
>kill these creatures immediately, and is shown to be 95%+ <BR>
>effective in killing their spores as well.<BR>
[deletion]<BR>
<BR>
Here's my twisted take on it:<BR>
<BR>
Oxy Vacc Leech:  This relative of the Vacc Leech is actually an<BR>
oxygen-using organism.  It keeps a very small supply of oxygen<BR>
in its silicate shell and lives on it for long periods of time,<BR>
until it somehow detects movement, heat, or oxygen (we're not<BR>
sure just what it detects, nor how).  It then drifts or crawls<BR>
to the attractive source and attaches itself, going immediately<BR>
into the normal Vacc Leech feeding frenzy.<BR>
<BR>
Exposure to oxygen, however, does not have any harmful effect on<BR>
the Oxy Vacc Leech; to the contrary, oxygen causes the Oxy Vacc<BR>
Leech to swell in size and rapidly generate hundreds of spores,<BR>
each of which reaches full size in several minutes and begins<BR>
reproducing within a few hours, assuming sufficient exposure to<BR>
oxygen.  A single Oxy Vacc Leech can generate enough offspring<BR>
to fill several cubic meters in a very short time; it could<BR>
eventually fill every bit of space in a spaceship.  Oxy Vacc<BR>
Leeches must accordingly not be allowed into a ship under any<BR>
circumstances.  <BR>
<BR>
The Oxy Vacc Leech can use oxygen in most forms, whether gaseous<BR>
or bonded in liquids such as water or blood.  <BR>
<BR>
The Oxy Vacc Leech may be a genetically engineered bioweapon<BR>
developed by the Solomani or the Imperium; both powers deny<BR>
knowledge of the origin of the Oxy Vacc Leech.  <BR>
<BR>
Fire is one of the only effective weapons against the Oxy Vacc<BR>
Leech.  Oxy Vacc Leeches probably burn up on entry into an<BR>
atmosphere; none have been found on worlds bearing atmospheres<BR>
of any kind.  Oxy Vacc Leeches are frequently encountered on<BR>
large asteroids, especially asteroids containing or made of ice.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:07:04 -0600<BR>
From: Michael Maley <mmaley@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 15mm Traveller minis on EBay<BR>
<BR>
I was looking for 15mm figures.  Much thanks!!!<BR>
<BR>
darkhstarr<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I noticed that someone is auctioning off Traveller minis on EBay,<BR>
> Vargr & Human soldiers. It was up to $10.50 when I looked for 32<BR>
> figures total. I remember someone asking about these, and I haven't<BR>
> seen them very often.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=269190102<BR>
> is the link.<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:14:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
>> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
>> of anything that would be<BR>
>> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
>> responsibility.  It's all tied in<BR>
>> >> very<BR>
>> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
>> resultant communications<BR>
>> >> lag.<BR>
><BR>
>The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
>the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The evolution of the modern democracy was not a foregone conclusion, or even<BR>
a case of the best form of government winning. "Democratic" experiments in<BR>
South America and other places in the past 200 years have gone a long way<BR>
toward proving the concept that a citizenry must be prepared to take on the<BR>
mantle of democracy or the system won't work.<BR>
<BR>
Remember that in the beginning the United States had a very limited<BR>
franchise. Only land owners could vote. Women, the rather large slave<BR>
populations of the southern states, and the indigenous peoples had no right<BR>
to vote. Up to 100 years after the civil war African American's were still<BR>
prohibited from voting in many places. Women have only been able to vote for<BR>
less than 100 years.<BR>
<BR>
When a population is not ready to take on the responsibilities of democracy<BR>
it has been quite common for a "strong man" the proverbial  "Man on a White<BR>
Horse" to step into the position of leadership, and become "President for<BR>
Life." This is not a new thing. Julius Caesar did it, as did Napoleon.<BR>
Single party governments are another form of this shill.<BR>
<BR>
The fact that a government is decentralized does not mean that it must be<BR>
democratic rather than autocratic. Spain ruled a world-wide empire in the<BR>
fifteenth century, as did England. China was greatly decentralized in the<BR>
year 200 B.C., a despotism and very successful as a government. (The Han<BR>
dynasty lasted 2000 years.) Even the Roman Empire was very large for it's<BR>
time, requiring considerable time for travel from Palestine to Britain.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:20:19 -0600 (EST)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  Additional Supplies for Life Support<BR>
<BR>
"In long voyages of this type, life support not only costs money but takes<BR>
up measurable cargo space. Life support costs are paid as in the Traveller<BR>
rules (Cr2000 per person per 2 weeks, or Cr1000 per week); 150<BR>
person-weeks of life support supplies take up one ton of cargo space and<BR>
cost Cr150,000.... Life support supplies include food, air and water (to<BR>
replace leakage from the recycling process), and consumable elements of<BR>
the life support system, such as filters, CO2 absorbers, and so on."<BR>
<BR>
_Belter's Handbook: BeltStrike_, p. 3.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:08:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> From: john hamilton <BR>
> N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
> autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
> leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
> SURVIVES!Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,as<BR>
> this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
<BR>
Heh.  One of my other interests (mad hobbies), besides Traveller, is<BR>
watching far-Left politics.  There's been a major swing back to the origins<BR>
of Communism in the radical democractic movements.  (There are also still<BR>
Stalinists, and other clowns, alas.)  An Indian "radical democratic<BR>
Communist" recently described North Korea as "feudal socialism", a term<BR>
which is very much an insult.  I think he would agree that North Korea will<BR>
eventually fold, unless external circumstances change.<BR>
<BR>
So there's another set of interstellar democracies:  socialist democracies!<BR>
 These would be states with radically democratic republican governments,<BR>
high degrees of state ownership in the economy (but perhaps with some<BR>
fairly small scale private property as well), and economic planning.  They<BR>
would probably feature state-owned merchant lines, and might not be<BR>
particularly lucrative markets for free traders.  All trade would go<BR>
through state-owned brokers.  The interstellar government would be<BR>
essentially defensive in nature, but would be paralleled by the economic<BR>
planning agencies.  There might also be some more capitalistic worlds<BR>
associated with them.  These would probably be fairly backward, but might<BR>
be slowly growing relatively high-tech state-owned enterprises.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium (that is, the megacorps) might hate their guts, but might also<BR>
tolerate them, if some kind of trade agreements could be reached.  <BR>
<BR>
Of course, you can chose to disbelieve this, and instead assume that all<BR>
states along these lines are necessarily autocracies....<BR>
<BR>
> From: Ingo Heinscher <BR>
> >A functional democratic state in an interstellar context would require<BR>
> >not only an economic rationale of some recurring importance (eg a<BR>
> >particularly viable trading route or a valuable mineral resource. <BR>
> <BR>
> Well, I used the very 3I as this rationale, though more an ideologic one:<BR>
> The external threat of the newly-founded 3I helped to meld together<BR>
> several democratic planetary gouvernments. Perhaps _roughly_ comparable<BR>
> to founding the EU today, with all the developments probably to come.<BR>
<BR>
Another possibility is that a revolution occurred in an existing autocratic<BR>
state, and spread, possibly at bayonet point, to all the old state's<BR>
worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, a democratic planetary government might start crusading, and<BR>
spread its form of government to neighbouring worlds, at least sometimes by<BR>
force.<BR>
<BR>
> >I've a couple of small states already worked up for this concept. If I<BR>
> >can be on any assistance. Please advise.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have several smaller states in MTU which I haven't yet developed.<BR>
> Perhaps you could post some  descriptions of these interstellar states<BR>
> here on the TML? (since I think it might be interesting for more than<BR>
> only me)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, do please.  I like reading stuff like this, even when I don't use it. <BR>
I might even rummage around and dig up some old notes of my own, or even<BR>
churn out a new one.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  Thinks:  sooner or later we'll get a satisfactory scalable<BR>
political/economic/military simulator.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 00:07:04 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD<BR>
<BR>
At 16:53 27.02.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     The only exceptions to that would be paid up HIWG members (and that's<BR>
>presuming I can make more working copies as it took 22 tries to come up with<BR>
>3 or 4).<BR>
<BR>
huh, how come? That sounds like an unacceptably high amount of failures.<BR>
Bad blanks or slow PC? Even i only have about 10% loss on my p100 w. 32 mb <BR>
ram...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1982<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1983<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re Diamond Devices<BR>
ACQ Arrives<BR>
Long Term Supplies<BR>
Re Cetatean Breathing<BR>
Re: CT psionic question...<BR>
Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
RE: another example<BR>
Source for some good background flavor<BR>
Computing quess<BR>
Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
Life Support<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: CT psionic question...<BR>
Teleportists<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Superhero Campaingn<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:50:56 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Diamond Devices<BR>
<BR>
>> Beyond 2000 has posted a story on the creation of the first<BR>
>> micromachine constructed of solid *diamond*. This promises<BR>
>> to make silicon obsolete for such construction.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Written in layman's language with decent illustrations, the<BR>
>> full story can be found at:<BR>
>> http://www.beyond2000.com/news/story_473.html<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>There's also been talk of using properly "doped" diamond for circuitry.<BR>
>On the other hand, some folks say you can't get diamond to act as a<BR>
>semiconductor. I don't know who is correct. But I've also heard talk of<BR>
>depositring silicon circuitry on a diamond substrate because diamond<BR>
>conducts heat better.<BR>
><BR>
I've read that diamond may allow for some unusual (Electron tunnelling)<BR>
conduction effects. The article mentioned above also mentions mixed<BR>
amorphous diamond and polysilicon devices.<BR>
<BR>
The use of diamonds is a wonderful way around the problems of silicon<BR>
hydrophilism in micro-machinery.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav:<BR>
CT and MT never mentioned nanotech, pro- or con-. I've always assumed that<BR>
nanotech explains much of what is done in Traveller... like anagathics,<BR>
regeneration, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Think of this: A regeneration schema which uses nanobots to lay and later<BR>
remove conduits which are followed by normal tissue growth patterns.<BR>
Essentially, they lay the frameworks, which the natural healing processes<BR>
then put the "Natural" structure onto, and then remove said structure. It<BR>
may be easier, it may be harder, but it is an alternative to the<BR>
chemological methods which seem to be the common presumption...<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:03:22 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: ACQ Arrives<BR>
<BR>
I have in my hands one of the first official copies of At Close Quarters...<BR>
<BR>
(more in a moment)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Libraries: There are no answers, only cross references.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:57:52 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Long Term Supplies<BR>
<BR>
>So if a ship is away from port for a long time - what space do additional<BR>
>supplies take up per stateroom?<BR>
><BR>
>Starting the clock.<BR>
><BR>
>NOW.<BR>
<BR>
From Beltstrike, The Belter's Handbook, P3:<BR>
	"...150 Person-weeks of life support supplies take up 1 ton and<BR>
cost Cr150,000."<BR>
<BR>
So, each two weeks takes 1/75th of a Ton, costs Cr2000. Per each stateroom.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:04:42 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re Cetatean Breathing<BR>
<BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> > So, why do whales, dolphins, etc breathe in before they dive?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Because if they don't, they *won't* have *any* usable O2!<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, but Ian just pointed out that seals exhale before they dive, and<BR>
>gave a number of reasons, so I was wondering what advantages whales got<BR>
>from not doing so to counter the loss of the benefits of exhalation<BR>
>that the seals enjoy.<BR>
<BR>
One of the advantages for the exhalation method of the cetateans is<BR>
pressure tolerances. They also shut off flow through the lungs, or at least<BR>
most flow... THey breath in, breath out, and continue to exhale as they<BR>
dive.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and most whales do exhale much of the lung content when they breath.<BR>
Except for certain special behavious, like bubble netting.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately for humans, we can't shut down the flow to the lungs... so<BR>
CO2 builds in the lungs while we hold our breath. Our breathing reflex is<BR>
triggered by CO2 levels in the lungs... so for us, holding breath is an<BR>
advantage (by dilution of the CO2) in duration of breath-hold.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:29:08 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 8:58 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Only Heinlein would think that you instantly get<BR>
> better by undressing.Pathetic.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I don't know, there's something to be said for the equation of nudity and<BR>
wits... like that old chestnut about "What is the most sensitive part of the<BR>
body when..." errrr, well, you know?<BR>
<BR>
you ever sneak through the family home naked in the middle of the night when<BR>
everyone is in bed asleep?  Try it if it's not the norm and see how<BR>
sensitive you become to your surroundings ;^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 04:24:44 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:36:50 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>[1] Adm. Hopper used to hand out "nanoseconds" at lectures. Pieces of<BR>
>copper wire cut to be approx. 1 light-nanosecond long. More recently,<BR>
>she switched to picoseconds (grains of salt!).<BR>
<BR>
Budget cuts?<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."<BR>
                                                    -George Washington<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 04:29:16 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:51:31 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 2/28/00 6:54:39 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
>gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< But the best names came from the US WWII submarine fleet.<BR>
> <BR>
<SNIP><BR>
><BR>
>Yeah; but did you ever read about some of the stunts the skippers of some of <BR>
>these boats pulled; impressive... BTW; add Harder and Tang to the list...:-)<BR>
<BR>
Submarine named USS Harder? Great, like submariners don't hear enough<BR>
phallic humor. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace."<BR>
                                                    -George Washington<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:05:48 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> > And that bullet you just took in the arm? Why, just teleport elsewhere,<BR>
> > leaving that behind, and you'll be set (except for the hemorrhaging, of<BR>
> > course).<BR>
<BR>
I think this is a valid use of teleportation.<BR>
<BR>
If you've ever read "More Than Human" by Theodore Sturgeon, they got so that<BR>
they never had to got to the toilet, as the teleport component would<BR>
evacuate their bowels for them whenever they were full. ("More Than Human"<BR>
is about a psionic gestalt )<BR>
<BR>
> > Now, to get rid of those pesky handcuffs ...<BR>
><BR>
> Most SF figures that you have to be able to take anything in close<BR>
> contact with you, or not go at all. Thus the practice of close fitting<BR>
> ankle chains attached to the floor/wall.<BR>
<BR>
I disagree. There are lots of examples of teleporters who can't take<BR>
anything with them, or can only take other things with them with huge<BR>
effort, and also many examples of teleports escaping physical restraint that<BR>
way.<BR>
<BR>
This leads to three normal means of restraining teleports, use a "psionic<BR>
damper" that prevents psionic activity, use a "teleport-proof" field or<BR>
material of some form (in Traveller, one could say that black globes were<BR>
"teleport-proof") or prevent the teleporter from escaping through social<BR>
pressure.<BR>
("If you escape we'll shoot your friends")<BR>
<BR>
> For the folks who use the "it has to practically be part of you to go<BR>
> along" version, I'd restrain a teloprt by having lengths of aircraft<BR>
> cable or the like with one end made into a loop that's embedded in a<BR>
> flexible plastic pad several inches across. Peel the backing off the<BR>
> pad and slap it onto a patch of bare skin. Use an adhesive similar to<BR>
> superglue. One that unless you use the right solvent, it won't come off<BR>
> without removing a *serious* amount of skin. Clamp the other end to<BR>
> something solid and the teleport ain't going anywhere.<BR>
<BR>
Why not ?<BR>
<BR>
I don't see that this makes it any harder to teleport.<BR>
<BR>
Either the patch stays behind or it doesn't. There's no reason why the glue<BR>
should stick to non-existent flesh unless it some sort of "psionic" glue,<BR>
and there's no reason why any field-based teleport couldn't just cut the<BR>
wire in half when they ported<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 23:57:50 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/1/00 4:30:14 AM !!!First Boot!!!, j_pete@bellsouth.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Submarine named USS Harder? Great, like submariners don't hear enough<BR>
 phallic humor. ;-) >><BR>
<BR>
You'll love their nickname: "Hit 'em again Harder!" ...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:15:51 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: another example<BR>
<BR>
> >I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
> >there who believe this junk.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there are lots of us.<BR>
<BR>
An autocracy is more efficient than all but a fascist dictatorship, and has<BR>
a higher capacity for being better for more of it's citizens than a<BR>
representative democracy.<BR>
<BR>
Hereditary ones may or may not be better. I would much rather be ruled by<BR>
someone trained to lead and to manage a country, than someone who can<BR>
convince lots of people to vote for them and whose only real skill is<BR>
rhetoric, which is the case for the majority of representatives in<BR>
democratic countries.<BR>
<BR>
It's the same reason most companies don't elect their CEOs.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, there needs to be a means of ensuring that the heir is<BR>
both competent and sane. There are some countries/political powers that got<BR>
this right, requiring the throne to "adopt" an appropriate person if the<BR>
existing heir wasn't competent.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt you can design a system that is perfectly "safe", in terms of<BR>
preventing abuses of power or preventing the wrong people from getting into<BR>
power. So, as no system can prevent that, I'd go for the one that's better<BR>
for the country, and committees have always been bad for anything they've<BR>
been involved in, which is basicaly what you get in a democracy.<BR>
<BR>
> Perhaps they see<BR>
> themselves as rulers of an empire( or an interstellar<BR>
> duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic<BR>
> heredetary rule.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Though I do feel I could run a country better than most of those who<BR>
are currently doing so.<BR>
<BR>
(The reason I don't take over is because running the country doesn't pay<BR>
well enough. I earn more than all but the prime minister and one or two of<BR>
the top cabinet members already.)<BR>
<BR>
> >For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
> >birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
> ><http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
><BR>
> Even more pathetic...  http://albore.homepage.com/<BR>
<BR>
Seeing as _neither_ of these idiots have actually been trained to take over<BR>
a country, this is not a good counter example.<BR>
<BR>
There is a difference between actually being trained and merely inheriting<BR>
daddy's wealth and influence.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:01:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
<BR>
I finally got around to picking up "Tramp Royale" a non-fiction book by<BR>
Heinlein bout the round the world trip he and his wife took back in<BR>
1953-54. <BR>
<BR>
It's an interesting read, even if there are places where his attitudes<BR>
are a bit painful. But it's also got some descriptions of goings on on<BR>
the real world equivalent of the sort of ships PCs run or travel on if<BR>
they don't own their own ship (cargo ships that also carry some<BR>
passengers).<BR>
<BR>
Also, the descriptions of the differences between the various countries<BR>
and the US. Note that he generally does a good job of avoiding<BR>
criticizing things that are merely *different*, he saves that for stuff<BR>
that is actually not a good way to do things.<BR>
<BR>
But if you pay attention, you can come up with all *sorts* of pitfalls<BR>
and "gotchas" for PCs. For example, the idea that even a customs clerk,<BR>
by virtue of being a representative of the government, expects to be<BR>
treated with extreme respect (such as removing your hat while in his<BR>
presence).<BR>
<BR>
Also all the silly government forms will give nasty GMs ideas. Stuff<BR>
like having to fill out income tax returns for the local government<BR>
before you can leave. And needing an export permit for money you<BR>
brought *into* the country(planet)! Yes, they actually did that to<BR>
*tourists*! <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:24:41 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
After reading the bit about computing technology in CRT1, I came up with the<BR>
following rough guess as to what the next few TLs will bring. It's based on<BR>
my incomplete knowledge of what research is going on in computing now. I am<BR>
assuming that technology will be generally available about one TL after its<BR>
refinement, and will more or less reach maturity another TL past that.<BR>
<BR>
TL7. CMOS microprocessors in smaller machines become widespread, making<BR>
mainframes a niche market. Early and cumbersome planetary networking.<BR>
<BR>
TL8. Maximum development of CMOS technology. The network totally eclipses<BR>
the computer.<BR>
<BR>
TL9. Quantum well technology in microprocessors. Ubiquitous networked<BR>
computing. Voice interfaces understand sentences of moderate complexity.<BR>
First bio-implanted sensors and processors.<BR>
<BR>
TL10. Maximum development of QW technology. Bio-implanted sensors and<BR>
processors common.<BR>
<BR>
So today my wife can pick up the phone and say "Computer, call Luther," and<BR>
my phone rings.<BR>
<BR>
At TL9 I can say "Computer, where is Karen?" If I'm at home, my computer<BR>
will recognize my voice and know from context that I mean my wife. It will<BR>
then interrogate other networks to find her location, maybe by the location<BR>
of her cell phone. It gets the location of the cell she is in and compares<BR>
the location to maps it knows of. After a few seconds the computer will<BR>
reply "Karen is at the Stanford Town Center mall."<BR>
<BR>
I have no idea what will happen past TL10. Any guesses? Is this timeline not<BR>
agressive enough?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:29:23 -0900<BR>
From: Richard Martin <asrlm@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Terran Battleships<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/1/00 4:30:14 AM !!!First Boot!!!, j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
> writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Submarine named USS Harder? Great, like submariners don't hear enough<BR>
>  phallic humor. ;-) >><BR>
> <BR>
> You'll love their nickname: "Hit 'em again Harder!" ...:-)<BR>
<BR>
or how about "Bottom Gun"....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Richard Martin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think, therefor I am, therefor I must be... Still here<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:45:09 +1100<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Life Support<BR>
<BR>
> We just happened to Hash this to death recently in our PBEM game.<BR>
><BR>
> Life support cost cr 2,000 per trip with 1 trip = 2 weeks so it's really<BR>
> cr 1,000 per week.<BR>
><BR>
> A ship has life support "supply" space built in for it's rated<BR>
> endurance.  In Our TU ships have a 6 week endurance standard so we can<BR>
> put in supplies for 6 weeks at no additional tonnage.  Most ships have a<BR>
> 4 week endurance under High Guard, I usually build warships with an 8<BR>
> week endurance (double power plant fuel requirements).  Supplies include<BR>
> food (fresh and packaged), water (and other drinks), spare parts, and<BR>
> other ship board consumables (duct tape?).<BR>
><BR>
> We decided after much debate (and using real world Naval supply<BR>
> calculations) that cr 1000 @ .16 dtons per person per week is what<BR>
> standard supplies cost and weigh.  We also invented Long Endurance<BR>
> Supply Materials at cr 3000 @ .16 dtons per person per week for long<BR>
> range exploration missions.  LESM's are not suitable for High-Mid<BR>
> passengers (MRE's and whatnot).<BR>
><BR>
> We are using stripped staterooms to increase our built in supply above<BR>
> and beyond our standard storage + our cargo bay capacity which our GM<BR>
> ruled at about 2 tons per stateroom.<BR>
><BR>
> I also read somewhere (Signal GK I think) that you can store 100 Kilo's<BR>
> in a standard stateroom using built in closets, etc. Anything else goes<BR>
> in the cargo bay.<BR>
><BR>
> It works for us, hope it helps you out.<BR>
><BR>
> Chris<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
You sir are a god*.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not the god.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks - that's going straight to the pool room <my saved TML pearls of<BR>
wisdom><BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:37:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> "Carry a knife, but don't carry a gun.  You'll be<BR>
> tempted to<BR>
> shoot back, and then you can be located and killed"<BR>
> or words to<BR>
> that effect.<BR>
<BR>
When they spot you (and modern armies have plenty of<BR>
resources to do that) ,then you're basicly located,and<BR>
since your unarmed,you are effectoivly caught.<BR>
<BR>
Why carry a knife at all.Are they gighting cave men<BR>
instead of TL 7+ soldiers?<BR>
<BR>
Heinlein's bits look interesting on paper,but absurd<BR>
when reality-checked.<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:13:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question...<BR>
<BR>
> > Only Heinlein would think that you instantly get<BR>
> > better by undressing.Pathetic.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> I don't know, there's something to be said for the<BR>
> equation of nudity and<BR>
> wits... like that old chestnut about "What is the<BR>
> most sensitive part of the<BR>
> body when..." errrr, well, you know?<BR>
> <BR>
> you ever sneak through the family home naked in the<BR>
> middle of the night when<BR>
> everyone is in bed asleep?  Try it if it's not the<BR>
> norm and see how<BR>
> sensitive you become to your surroundings ;^)<BR>
<BR>
I hope this don't means that your parents will put you<BR>
in a POW camp at best.That's what happens to<BR>
soldiers.Are you relly that better that it outweights<BR>
equipment?And sensitive to WHAT? To the details of<BR>
your target your were sent out to reveal?Or to your<BR>
own  personal danger? More likly.<BR>
There actually was a similar theory which was actually<BR>
even tested.<BR>
In the japanese war,russian artillery was sent out<BR>
without cover,since that would make them better<BR>
fighters cause they would feel unprotected and thus<BR>
trying harder to desroy the Sons of Nippon.<BR>
Needless to say,while they used the same German<BR>
cannons as the Russians,the japanese artillery<BR>
destroyed it's russian counterpart,and then their army.<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:13:58 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Teleportists<BR>
<BR>
>I don't think even that would work.  The problem for a<BR>
>teleporter (teleport? teleportist? what do we call them?) is<BR>
>bringing something along besides the body.  The adhesive itself<BR>
>is not part of the body, and even if it feels like body, the<BR>
>teleporter will know that it is not and so would have to work<BR>
>hard to convince him/herself that it was and could be<BR>
>teleported.  Conversely, it would be easy to acknowledge that it<BR>
>was a foreign object and could be left behind.<BR>
><BR>
>Ways to restrain a teleport include (1) keeping him/her<BR>
>unconscious; (2) keeping him/her in motion so fast with respect<BR>
>to any place in range that teleportation would be too dangerous<BR>
>to attempt; (3) keeping him/her out of range of places that<BR>
>he/she has seen and can teleport to (far orbit might work).<BR>
<BR>
4) Running a cable through the body in such a way that the cable brevents a<BR>
catastrophic bleedout.<BR>
<BR>
>The crude at heart might consider injecting a poison and then<BR>
>putting the antidote into an intravenous drip or into the prison<BR>
>cell's atmosphere.  Teleport out and die; or am I just bluffing?<BR>
<BR>
Shades of Herbert....<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:29:12 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Mar 00, at 0:37, john hamilton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> > "Carry a knife, but don't carry a gun.  You'll be<BR>
> > tempted to<BR>
> > shoot back, and then you can be located and killed"<BR>
> > or words to<BR>
> > that effect.<BR>
> <BR>
> When they spot you (and modern armies have plenty of<BR>
> resources to do that) ,then you're basicly located,and<BR>
> since your unarmed,you are effectoivly caught.<BR>
<BR>
The same applies if you're carrying an assualt rifle, too. It's not <BR>
like you're going to win a fire-fight against a squad plus of guys with <BR>
MGs and grenade launchers.<BR>
 <BR>
> Why carry a knife at all.Are they gighting cave men<BR>
> instead of TL 7+ soldiers?<BR>
<BR>
Because knives are useful for quietly killing sentrys, whereas guns are <BR>
noisy.<BR>
<BR>
> Heinlein's bits look interesting on paper,but absurd<BR>
> when reality-checked.<BR>
<BR>
Remember the whole point of recon is to avoid being found, not to shoot <BR>
the bad guys. Despite all those neat gadgets well trained troops can <BR>
hide surprisingly well, especially in areas of dense vegitation.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:26:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>> And that bullet you just took in the arm? Why, just teleport elsewhere,<BR>
>>> leaving that behind, and you'll be set (except for the hemorrhaging, of<BR>
>>> course).<BR>
><BR>
> I think this is a valid use of teleportation.<BR>
><BR>
> If you've ever read "More Than Human" by Theodore Sturgeon, they got so that<BR>
> they never had to got to the toilet, as the teleport component would<BR>
> evacuate their bowels for them whenever they were full. ("More Than Human"<BR>
> is about a psionic gestalt )<BR>
<BR>
I hope they actually only did that to stuff in the rectum. Otherwise,<BR>
they would be risking both dehydration (the main purpose of the large<BR>
intestine is water reclamation) and deficiency diseases (a number of<BR>
nutrients are only gotten via *slow* absorption as the food passes thru<BR>
the small and large intestine). The *stomach* doesn't absorb nutrients<BR>
at all. It chemically treats the food so it *can* be absorbed in the<BR>
intestines. <BR>
<BR>
>> For the folks who use the "it has to practically be part of you to go<BR>
>> along" version, I'd restrain a teloprt by having lengths of aircraft<BR>
>> cable or the like with one end made into a loop that's embedded in a<BR>
>> flexible plastic pad several inches across. Peel the backing off the<BR>
>> pad and slap it onto a patch of bare skin. Use an adhesive similar to<BR>
>> superglue. One that unless you use the right solvent, it won't come off<BR>
>> without removing a *serious* amount of skin. Clamp the other end to<BR>
>> something solid and the teleport ain't going anywhere.<BR>
><BR>
> Why not ?<BR>
><BR>
> I don't see that this makes it any harder to teleport.<BR>
><BR>
> Either the patch stays behind or it doesn't. There's no reason why the glue<BR>
> should stick to non-existent flesh unless it some sort of "psionic" glue,<BR>
> and there's no reason why any field-based teleport couldn't just cut the<BR>
> wire in half when they ported<BR>
<BR>
The glue and patch *is* part of the teleporter. the bonds involved are<BR>
the same sort that hold the body together. <BR>
<BR>
And if they can cut the wire in half, they can remove door locks by<BR>
taking the handle and lock assembly with them. Or just placing their<BR>
hand on the door and taking a chunk with them. This screws playability<BR>
far too much.<BR>
<BR>
And "realism" wise, it sucks also. Basicly, it takes *energy* to break<BR>
the chemical bonds. The energy involved in cutting that sort of cable<BR>
is about on a par with what it'd take to pick up 50-100 kilos and carry<BR>
it off. Porting a chunk out of a door is equivalent to carrying a few<BR>
*tonnes*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:38:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Superhero Campaingn<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> We recently got some new Players,and decided to start<BR>
> a new Campaign,searching for something different,so we<BR>
> decided to play a Superhero Campaign with CT.<BR>
> Does anyone did something remotly similar before?<BR>
<BR>
Not that I know of.<BR>
<BR>
> Any good ideas?<BR>
<BR>
Well, somewhere within a sector or two of Earth is a hex labelled<BR>
"Krypton"... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:45:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> >>>For something the size of the 3I, /I/ can't think<BR>
>> of anything that would be<BR>
>> >>>better than the importance of personal<BR>
>> responsibility.  It's all tied in <BR>
>> >> very<BR>
>> >>>strongly with the Jump Drive technology and the<BR>
>> resultant communications<BR>
>> >> lag.<BR>
>  <BR>
> The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
> the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
<megasnip><BR>
<BR>
Why did you post this *eight* times?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1983<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1984</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1984<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation (was Re: CT psionic question)<BR>
Re: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
RE: another example<BR>
Tunnel in the Sky was CT Psionic Question<BR>
PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
CT Psionic Question<BR>
Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
RE: The Vacc Leech<BR>
Re:"Your Ship Is POND SCUM!"<BR>
RE: Traveller Sector Information<BR>
minutes of Fame<BR>
We are komink....<BR>
RE: another example<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU)<BR>
re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:57:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation (was Re: CT psionic question)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
><BR>
> I don't recall this subject having been discussed before.  HIWG<BR>
> has a nice monograph proposing an explanation of psionics that<BR>
> largely comports with physics.  If I find it I'll post some<BR>
> excerpts or a summary.  <BR>
><BR>
>>Most SF figures that you have to be able to take anything in <BR>
>>close contact with you, or not go at all. Thus the practice of <BR>
>>close fitting ankle chains attached to the floor/wall. For the <BR>
>>folks who use the "it has to practically be part of you to go <BR>
>>along" version, I'd restrain a teloprt by having lengths of <BR>
>>aircraft cable or the like with one end made into a loop that's<BR>
><BR>
>>embedded in a flexible plastic pad several inches across. Peel <BR>
>>the backing off the pad and slap it onto a patch of bare skin. <BR>
>>Use an adhesive similar to superglue. One that unless you use <BR>
>>the right solvent, it won't come off without removing a <BR>
>>*serious* amount of skin. Clamp the other end to something <BR>
>>solid and the teleport ain't going anywhere. <BR>
><BR>
> I don't think even that would work.  The problem for a<BR>
> teleporter (teleport? teleportist? what do we call them?) is<BR>
> bringing something along besides the body.  The adhesive itself<BR>
> is not part of the body, and even if it feels like body, the<BR>
> teleporter will know that it is not and so would have to work<BR>
> hard to convince him/herself that it was and could be<BR>
> teleported.  Conversely, it would be easy to acknowledge that it<BR>
> was a foreign object and could be left behind.  <BR>
<BR>
The problem is that the adhesive *makes* it part of the body, and given<BR>
that Traveller tries to have even teleportation obey conservation laws,<BR>
this means that since the patch is *physically* part of their body, to<BR>
get rid of it requires supplying the energy required to break the<BR>
chemical bonds. That energy is equivalent to dragging along a *lot* of<BR>
kilos. <BR>
<BR>
As I point out in another message, allowing teleportation to break<BR>
physical bonds makes it *way* to powerful.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:45:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Space Ecosystems<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote :-<BR>
>> Maybe I'm a wimp, but I find it very difficult to hold my<BR>
>> breath for more than 90 seconds.  :x  Physiology texts which<BR>
>> I consulted gave the "a little more than 1 minute" figure<BR>
>> which I reported.  I don't know what the world record is,<BR>
><BR>
> It's amazing how sources vary, isn't it?<BR>
> By the way, the depth record for breath hold diving is 130m/428 ft by<BR>
> Francisco Ferreras off the Mexican coast in 1996. He was only underwater<BR>
> for 2 minutes, 11 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Somebody broke that a month or two back. It was on the news. I<BR>
think the new record is 150m.<BR>
<BR>
>> You will have to enlighten me about the Io-Jupiter flux tube,<BR>
>> is it an area where gravetic forces increase the density of<BR>
>> molecules, perhaps sucked up from Jupiter?<BR>
><BR>
> It's a huge electric current arc between the two bodies ; the particle<BR>
> density therein would be much larger than the surrounding space.<BR>
<BR>
"Arc" is not technically correct. There is a current flow, but not an<BR>
"arc". <BR>
<BR>
The "flux" bit refers to magnetic flux lines as I recall. The current<BR>
issue of Scientific American has a some stuff about this.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:44:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computer technology (was RE: CT Reprints)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 09:36:50 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard<BR>
> Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>[1] Adm. Hopper used to hand out "nanoseconds" at lectures. Pieces of<BR>
>>copper wire cut to be approx. 1 light-nanosecond long. More recently,<BR>
>>she switched to picoseconds (grains of salt!).<BR>
><BR>
> Budget cuts?<BR>
<BR>
Faster computers and higher frequencies used in communications.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 22:16:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>> If you've ever read Heinlein's "Tunnel in the Sky", there's a bit of<BR>
>>> advice from the hero's big sister (who is an NCO or junior officer in an<BR>
>>> all female military unit) about when she needs a scout, she sends out a<BR>
>>> trooper in her underwear and carrying no weapon other than a knife. Being<BR>
>>> "under-dressed" that way makes you *really* sensitive to your surroundings<BR>
><BR>
> Of course,realisticly,this is just typical<BR>
> pseudo-psychological Heinlein junk.<BR>
> Soldiers do perform better if there are as many safety<BR>
> measures in action as possible.Look for example the<BR>
> pilot rescue proceddures:<BR>
> air forces have realised long ago that their<BR>
> multimillion $ planes are used more effective if their<BR>
> pilots take more risks,knowing that  they will rescued<BR>
> if something goes wrong.<BR>
> A scout,likewise,performs better with adequate cammo<BR>
> and self-protection weaponry.<BR>
> Only Heinlein would think that you instantly get<BR>
> better by undressing.Pathetic.<BR>
<BR>
I suggest that you go back and read my message *without* all those<BR>
preconceptions as to what the mission is. <BR>
<BR>
The "half naked" trooper isn't "better" in the sense *you* are using.<BR>
She's not *supposed* to be "taking more risks".<BR>
<BR>
She's *more cautious*, which is *exactly* what you want in a *scout*. A<BR>
scout does *less* than no good if they get caught. that's because not<BR>
only do they not bring you back any info about the enemy positions, but<BR>
they *give* the enemy info by the very fact that they are there,<BR>
regardless of whether or not the enemy can make them talk.<BR>
<BR>
> For a Teleporter,that just means he would jump earlier<BR>
> out of danger than if he was heavily armed and<BR>
> armored,in which case he could hold the position<BR>
> significantly longer when spotted.<BR>
<BR>
But the object *isn't* to "hold the position". It's to get in, get info<BR>
(or perform sabotage) and get out *without* being spotted. <BR>
<BR>
*Completely* different mission profile than the one you are picturing. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:35:05 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 1:32 AM<BR>
Subject: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>After reading the bit about computing technology in CRT1, I came up with<BR>
the<BR>
>following rough guess as to what the next few TLs will bring. It's based on<BR>
>my incomplete knowledge of what research is going on in computing now. I am<BR>
>assuming that technology will be generally available about one TL after its<BR>
>refinement, and will more or less reach maturity another TL past that.<BR>
>So today my wife can pick up the phone and say "Computer, call Luther," and<BR>
>my phone rings.<BR>
><BR>
>At TL9 I can say "Computer, where is Karen?" If I'm at home, my computer<BR>
>will recognize my voice and know from context that I mean my wife. It will<BR>
>then interrogate other networks to find her location, maybe by the location<BR>
>of her cell phone. It gets the location of the cell she is in and compares<BR>
>the location to maps it knows of. After a few seconds the computer will<BR>
>reply "Karen is at the Stanford Town Center mall."<BR>
><BR>
I don't know why but if that was the case I would only carry my cell phone<BR>
as my job required and not for personal use. I completely comfortable with<BR>
picking up the phone and having a computer dial a number even though I<BR>
wonder how much of the call is then electronically recorded. But the idea of<BR>
tracking me is scary. I wonder how many other ppl would think this is an<BR>
intrusion in their privacy. or worst then that. Only the honest ppl would be<BR>
able to be tracked and want the tracking. Maybe that just makes me for to<BR>
dishonest for this tech level. I really think that just because a thing can<BR>
be done doesn't mean it will be done. for this reason.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 06:44:26 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: another example<BR>
<BR>
At 7:15 PM +1300 3/1/2000, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>I doubt you can design a system that is perfectly "safe", in terms of<BR>
>preventing abuses of power or preventing the wrong people from getting into<BR>
>power. So, as no system can prevent that, I'd go for the one that's better<BR>
>for the country, and committees have always been bad for anything they've<BR>
>been involved in, which is basicaly what you get in a democracy.<BR>
<BR>
The government of the United States was not designed to be the most<BR>
efficient or effective government.  It was designed to prevent tyranny.<BR>
To that end, it is deliberately inefficient and makes it difficult for<BR>
any one person to do too much.  While I agree that a competent,<BR>
benevolent dictator or autocrat is by far the best form of government,<BR>
I don't trust anyone else but me to pick that person.  In fact, I don't<BR>
really trust me to pick that person so I'd end up picking myself and I'm<BR>
afraid I'm probably not the best candidate.  So I accept the US<BR>
democracy as a crappy government, but the least bad one around.<BR>
<BR>
>>  >For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
>>  >birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
>>  ><http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
>><BR>
>>  Even more pathetic...  http://albore.homepage.com/<BR>
<BR>
As has been said, these guys are examples of politicians in a<BR>
popularity contest driven government, not men trained to run a<BR>
country well.  Big difference.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 08:53:27 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Dixon" <cdixon@airfoiltech.com><BR>
Subject: Tunnel in the Sky was CT Psionic Question<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:37:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> "Carry a knife, but don't carry a gun.  You'll be<BR>
> tempted to<BR>
> shoot back, and then you can be located and killed"<BR>
> or words to<BR>
> that effect.<BR>
<BR>
>When they spot you (and modern armies have plenty of<BR>
resources to do that) ,then you're basically located,and<BR>
>since your unarmed,you are effectively caught.<BR>
<BR>
>Why carry a knife at all.Are they fighting cave men<BR>
>instead of TL 7+ soldiers?<BR>
<BR>
>Heinlein's bits look interesting on paper,but absurd<BR>
>when reality-checked.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to remember Tunnel in the Sky was more along the lines of<BR>
exploration and colonization rather than soldiers duking it out.  The<BR>
idea was that you'd train on a new world sort of like the Scout boot<BR>
camp from hell.  There were other recruits out there but it wasn't a<BR>
"war" situation at all.  I think under that context his idea is pretty<BR>
sound (stay alert stay alive.)<BR>
<BR>
Heinlein was also the one who put together the Mobile Infantry basic<BR>
training - A year long course that includes being dropped naked in the<BR>
rocky mountains as part of your survival training.<BR>
<BR>
Just food for thought.<BR>
<BR>
Chris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:53:46 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>P.S. Do you remember the SPI swords & sorcery wargame whose name<BR>
>I've forgotten that took place in a valley populated by various<BR>
>mutually antagonistic races, some of which were armed with<BR>
>Zeppelins?  <BR>
<BR>
Yup. It was called, believe it or not, "Swords & Sorcery". <G><BR>
<BR>
Glenn again:<BR>
>If certain events were rolled, magic penguins<BR>
>descended in a random walk from the north edge of the map and<BR>
>demoralized any unit that got within two hexes of them.  I think<BR>
>you could also summon the SS Wiking Panzergruppe under certain<BR>
>circumstances.  It was one of my favorite games for a while.  <BR>
<BR>
Not just the SS Wiking Division...you could also summon the <BR>
Continental Seige Machine, i.e. one of Steve Jackson's Ogres.<BR>
<BR>
But the attack of the Killer Penguins was always my favorite.<BR>
<BR>
Some people didn't like the puns on the map...two major forests named<BR>
Nataly Wood and Evelyn Wood, the Hill of Avalon, things like that.<BR>
But yes, the Zeppelins of the Corflu Cultists were a wonder to behold.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
collector of all manner of SF/Fantasy wargames<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:19:54 -0500<BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
Subject: CT Psionic Question<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
>> Why carry a knife at all.Are they gighting cave men<BR>
>> instead of TL 7+ soldiers?<BR>
><BR>
>Because knives are useful for quietly killing sentrys, whereas guns are <BR>
>noisy.<BR>
<BR>
According to the war-years biography of the founder of the OSS, that<BR>
American spy agency developed a pistol that was mighty quiet during<BR>
WW2. He relates taking the prototype and a sandbag into his boss's<BR>
office while his boss was on the phone, and firing an entire ammo<BR>
clip into the bag without his boss hearing anything but the thumps.<BR>
<BR>
This acheivement was particularly interesting to him because during the<BR>
interviews for his position, he was put in this hypothetical scenario:<BR>
<BR>
You are dropped off at the surf line near a German radar installation,<BR>
which is patrolled by twenty guards and can call for reinforcements.<BR>
Your task is to destroy the installation. What equipment do you bring<BR>
with you? The equipment didn't have to really exist, but it's plausability<BR>
was a major factor in comparing the answers.<BR>
<BR>
His weapon of choise was a noiseless, flashless rifle...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 18:03:36 +0000<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: The Conspiracy Continues<BR>
<BR>
In message <38BADB47.89C5D06A@estarcion.com>, Russell Bornschlegel<BR>
<kaleja@estarcion.com> writes<BR>
>Now, clearly, the only reasonable explanation for Grace Hopper's name<BR>
>coming up in rapid succession in two different threads is that some sort <BR>
>of code is in use. You'll also note that several numeric items come up <BR>
>in the quoted paragraphs, in the sequence 1, 1, 30, 1, 1, 70. This can<BR>
>only me$$!gqn((*<BR>
>NO CARRIER<BR>
<BR>
Quite right - shirley DDG implies some sort of destroyer?<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 07:03:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
At 11:29 PM 3/1/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Why carry a knife at all.Are they gighting cave men<BR>
>> instead of TL 7+ soldiers?<BR>
><BR>
>Because knives are useful for quietly killing sentrys, whereas guns are <BR>
>noisy.<BR>
<BR>
It's usually easier to avoid sentries with enough training and discipline.<BR>
I once had a LP/OP trooper urinate on my ghilie suit, while my spotter<BR>
inflicted great damage to himself trying to keep from laughing.<BR>
<BR>
Not all guns are noisy. The SEALs have a little toy called the Mk-22 "Hush<BR>
Puppy." Fires a .22 sub-sonic round from a closed bolt, with a heavy<BR>
supressor. The only sound is the *click* of the hammer falling. I've fired<BR>
a supressed bolt-action .45 that was as close to silent as I've ever heard.<BR>
The only sound I heard, both firing and observing, was a muffled *thwip* of<BR>
the round going down range.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with knives is that it's very hard to kill somebody with one<BR>
without the target making some sort of noise. The so-called "off-swicth" at<BR>
the base of the skull requires a great amount of skill to hit, and that<BR>
your target doesn't do anything as inconveinent as moving.<BR>
<BR>
The real reason we carry knives (in the US Army at least) is that MRE<BR>
packages are impossible to open without them.<BR>
<BR>
>> Heinlein's bits look interesting on paper,but absurd<BR>
>> when reality-checked.<BR>
><BR>
>Remember the whole point of recon is to avoid being found, not to shoot <BR>
>the bad guys. Despite all those neat gadgets well trained troops can <BR>
>hide surprisingly well, especially in areas of dense vegitation.<BR>
<BR>
The perfect recon mission comes back with all it's ammo.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 13:10:08 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
At 22:24 29/02/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At TL9 I can say "Computer, where is Karen?" If I'm at home, my computer<BR>
>will recognize my voice and know from context that I mean my wife. It will<BR>
>then interrogate other networks to find her location, maybe by the location<BR>
>of her cell phone. It gets the location of the cell she is in and compares<BR>
>the location to maps it knows of. After a few seconds the computer will<BR>
>reply "Karen is at the Stanford Town Center mall."<BR>
><BR>
>I have no idea what will happen past TL10. Any guesses? Is this timeline not<BR>
>agressive enough?<BR>
<BR>
TL11<BR>
<BR>
"Karen is no longer aboard the Enterprise."<BR>
<BR>
But for true Magic Tech:<BR>
<BR>
TL25<BR>
You just talk. The computer knows who you want to talk to, when to put the<BR>
privacy filter in for an aside, when you have finished. Almost is if it was<BR>
readsing the script.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and it can also open automatic doors (or not) for dramatic effect,<BR>
ensuring<BR>
just the right backdrop for your parting remarks.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:14:09 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: The Vacc Leech<BR>
<BR>
Walter Smith writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The Vacc Leech<BR>
>This critter is tiny, about fingernail-sized, and consists of a<BR>
>living core surrounded by an articulated silicate shell.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>It moves in microgravity environments by clinging to asteroids<BR>
>and other space debris, moving by crawling along the surface<BR>
>with it's movable silicoid carapace.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The Vacc Leech is notorious for it's habit of latching on to<BR>
>the exterior fabric of some types of vacc suits, especially on<BR>
>the articulation joints and the tubes associated with<BR>
>environmnental systems.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Penetration of a standard Vacc Suit can take place in a matter<BR>
>of minutes. Luckily, exposure to a normal-pressure oxygen<BR>
>atmosphere will kill these creatures immediately, and is shown<BR>
>to be 95%+ effective in killing their spores as well.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	My players are going to hate you  ;)<BR>
<BR>
	There is a variation: the Air Sucker.  These are similar<BR>
	to Vacc Leeches, but they penetrate the vacc suit seals<BR>
	with a drill-like beak (normally used to suck air out of<BR>
	Gas Crystals) and suck out air.  One or two of these have<BR>
	little noticable effect, but will reduce the time that a<BR>
	vacc suit will keep you alive (which may be, um,<BR>
	inconvenient).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:15:29 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re:"Your Ship Is POND SCUM!"<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino writes:<BR>
>>Scientists have found a new way to force the algae to<BR>
>>make hydrogen gas on demand, a process that could lead<BR>
>>to an almost limitless supply of fuel that burns without<BR>
>>pollution and produces only water as a waste product...<BR>
>Ah-hah. Who said we needed power to get hydrogen from water?<BR>
<BR>
	Don't forget that the algae still need power to do this.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:20:43 -0600 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller Sector Information<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Donald McKinney [mailto:dmckinne@amdocs.com]<BR>
<BR>
> Now on the web at http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html (Don's<BR>
> Traveller Site):<BR>
> <BR>
> The current "Published Traveller Sector Information" list...<BR>
<BR>
Neat.  Somewhere, out there, I remember seeing a list of all worlds that<BR>
have had write-ups about them published.  It listed the world name/location<BR>
and what publication the write-up had been in.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone know what I'm talking about?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:35:00 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: minutes of Fame<BR>
<BR>
The kind people over at KFOG radio gave our beloved PenguinBoy another Minute <BR>
of Fame this morning by giving him the opportunity to tell another of his "No <BR>
S**t there I was, driving..." stories on the air. Seems they were talking <BR>
about local efforts to ban cellular phone use while driving, and Doug had a <BR>
germane example...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Hey, he writes for the game, right?<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:13:00 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: We are komink....<BR>
<BR>
"The Penguins are coming, coming for you."<BR>
<BR>
A_ctually It's C_loser to your Q_uarters than ever before....<BR>
<BR>
Soon ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:29:18 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: RE: another example<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>Subject: RE: another example<BR>
><BR>
>> >I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
>> >there who believe this junk.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, there are lots of us.<BR>
><BR>
>An autocracy is more efficient than all but a fascist dictatorship, and has<BR>
>a higher capacity for being better for more of it's citizens than a<BR>
>representative democracy.<BR>
<BR>
  It would probably help to specify what efficient means in this context;<BR>
I think that I know what you mean, but most people are going to get upset<BR>
because democracy is supposed to be about the untidy and inefficient<BR>
discourse that allows trade-offs between different interests and groups<BR>
in society (which is a sick joke in most modern democracies...).<BR>
<BR>
  But then, representative democracy can be called an oxymoron, and the<BR>
injustice of a political system that doesn't give most of its large <BR>
mammalian inhabitants the vote is obvious.<BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:26:04 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
Chauncey Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I don't know why but if that was the case I would only carry my cell phone<BR>
> as my job required and not for personal use. I completely comfortable with<BR>
> picking up the phone and having a computer dial a number even though I<BR>
> wonder how much of the call is then electronically recorded. But the idea<BR>
of<BR>
> tracking me is scary. I wonder how many other ppl would think this is an<BR>
> intrusion in their privacy. or worst then that. Only the honest ppl would<BR>
be<BR>
> able to be tracked and want the tracking. Maybe that just makes me for to<BR>
> dishonest for this tech level. I really think that just because a thing<BR>
can<BR>
> be done doesn't mean it will be done. for this reason.<BR>
<BR>
This problem can be easily solved. Each mobile device has an access control<BR>
list. So that I can track my kids by the locations of their accessories, but<BR>
the bad guys (e.g. Democrats) can't.<BR>
<BR>
So I have a digital certificate which identifies me. When I query the<BR>
network for the location of my wife (for example), my cert is used to<BR>
authenticate my identity to the end device or perhaps some proxy for it. If<BR>
I am on the appropriate ACL for the device, it responds with the information<BR>
I requested.<BR>
<BR>
We are capable of tracking people by their cell phones today. When you turn<BR>
on your cell phone, the phone communicates with the network, telling it<BR>
where you are and who you are. So the network already knows roughly where<BR>
you (or at least your phone) is, or at least which cell it is in. The<BR>
technology just isn't there yet for an arbitrary user to query the network<BR>
to get this information.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that this type of technology will eventually be realized, since<BR>
there is a valuable business need for it. It's just an extension of the<BR>
intrusion into our lives we already have from pagers, cell phones, laptops,<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:59:55 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU)<BR>
<BR>
At 15:31 29.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>john hamilton wrote:<BR>
>>It doesn't matter how fast information ,but ENFORCMENT<BR>
>>travels.<BR>
><BR>
>Depends on the society. The Imperium keeps the peace internally<BR>
>mainly through force, the Federation mainly through diplomacy and <BR>
>compromise. The former needs to move police forces, the latter needs<BR>
>to move information.<BR>
<BR>
..and is therefore more efficient. That's a great summary of the problem<BR>
autocracies have encountered in real history.<BR>
<BR>
>Besides, what (internally) does the Federation have to enforce? It's<BR>
>a voluntary organization, planets ask to join and can leave whenever<BR>
>they want to. The benefits of staying in are what keeps the Federation<BR>
>together, not the rapid dispatch of battlecruisers.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I remember an episode when Picard said "When I fought against some<BR>
Antarean renegades...". And remember the Maquis. There were heavily fought<BR>
by Starfleet. Sometimes I'm even not sure whether the ST Feds are a<BR>
democracy. Never heard of any elecetions there... Sure, they have a<BR>
president- but look a South America. They had even more presidents there...<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>The 3I emplaced autocracies because it was like a conquering army,<BR>
>the Federation has democratic processes because it has the history<BR>
>and communications capability to do so.<BR>
<BR>
This is what I doubt: That the "communications capability" is what makes a<BR>
democratic organization possible. I aggree that in Milieu 0, the Sylean<BR>
Federation and Cleon Zhunastu had no choice: If they wanted to rebuild a<BR>
large interstellar state, they would necessarily have to claim to be a<BR>
successor of the other two large interstellar states on that territory:<BR>
Coming up with a new type of gouvernment would have been rejected by most<BR>
people, I think. (Especially with the Vilani: "Something new? <PANIC!>";-)<BR>
) But these are rather cultural reasons, not technical ones. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:46:53 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: re: Interstellar Democracies IYTU<BR>
<BR>
At 12:07 29.02.00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip] <BR>
>> You can manage a government much better with one day<BR>
>> commo<BR>
>> lags than you can with half-year commo lags.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Also, the Federation expanded diplomatically and<BR>
>> economically,<BR>
>> into areas that had not, historically, had any major<BR>
>> interstellar<BR>
>> polities. The 3I expanded into an area that had been<BR>
>> conquered<BR>
>> at least twice, and built (at least culturally) upon<BR>
>> the heritage of<BR>
>> interstellar domination established by the Ziru<BR>
>> Sirka and the Rule<BR>
>> of Man.<BR>
><BR>
>In this case democracy can't exist on Earth,cause all<BR>
>ststes were founded as dictatorships/monarchies<BR>
>,whatever.<BR>
<BR>
This is not how this is meant, and you know that, don't you? The fact that<BR>
there is some tradition of gouvernmental structure means that it is<BR>
reasonable to assume that future gouvernments will build on this tradition.<BR>
One may argue if this remains that way, especially if there is some crisis<BR>
the autocratic gouvernment doesn't seem to handle properly (and<BR>
_other_ideas_of_how_to_organize_a_state_exist_). But I think this is not a<BR>
neccessary evolution, just a possible (and IMO preferable) way history may go.<BR>
<BR>
>Well,that it must be an autocracy cause it was<BR>
>formerly ruled by an autocracy worries me,cuse when<BR>
>I'm looking out of the window of the room i'm writing<BR>
>this I see a place where once hords of SS men paraded.............<BR>
<BR>
Well, I am looking out of a window like this too, but you must not forget<BR>
that the Nazis made it fairly easy for the Germans to hate them and accept<BR>
a non-autocratic style of gouvernmentafter they lost the war: Killed<BR>
millions of innocents, let the entire continet fall into ashes, made all<BR>
well-believing Germans their accomplices(exp?) wthout their knowledge...<BR>
not to forget (I don't want to be respectless to my ancestors, but I think<BR>
it's part of the facts) _losing_that_war_. Let the 3I lose some major war<BR>
comparable to WWII on an interstellar scale, let the winners (the Zhoes?)<BR>
offer an alternative, and it's fairly reasonable that there won't be any<BR>
empperors again for a very long time...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
"This was not meant to be an aggresssion against the Siru Zirka. But we had<BR>
to organize our affairs a bit more efficiently. To be honest, we have had<BR>
to do this for almost 300 years by now."<BR>
unknown Terran politician, -2398 Imp<BR>
;-) ingo heinscher <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1984<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1985<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: PCMP = Penguin Cannon...<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: another example<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (wandering OT-ish)<BR>
Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
re:  Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation <BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:31:29 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
At 19:14 29.02.00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>The evolution of the modern democracy was not a foregone conclusion, or even<BR>
>a case of the best form of government winning. "Democratic" experiments in<BR>
>South America and other places in the past 200 years have gone a long way<BR>
>toward proving the concept that a citizenry must be prepared to take on the<BR>
>mantle of democracy or the system won't work.<BR>
<BR>
One should rather say "won't survive any serious attack". Those South<BR>
American democracies did work, but where attacked by people who thought<BR>
they could do better (or who didn't care about who did it better as long as<BR>
this "who" did it in their interest.)<BR>
<BR>
And one _could_ see especially atlantic history of the 20th century as a<BR>
proof for democracy being "better", that is, being economically more<BR>
effective (which led to military and semi-military success in the age of<BR>
expesive mass armies).<BR>
<BR>
>Remember that in the beginning the United States had a very limited<BR>
>franchise. Only land owners could vote. Women, the rather large slave<BR>
>populations of the southern states, and the indigenous peoples had no right<BR>
>to vote. Up to 100 years after the civil war African American's were still<BR>
>prohibited from voting in many places. Women have only been able to vote for<BR>
>less than 100 years.<BR>
<BR>
And still there is some reason why all these changes were made, i.e. women<BR>
may vote in the U.S. today (I hope so), the apartheid regime was replaced<BR>
by a truely democratic goevernment, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
>When a population is not ready to take on the responsibilities of democracy<BR>
>it has been quite common for a "strong man" the proverbial  "Man on a White<BR>
>Horse" to step into the position of leadership, and become "President for<BR>
>Life." This is not a new thing. Julius Caesar did it,<BR>
<BR>
Poor guy. Had all, then he wanted more, wanted rulership for life... and<BR>
was killed because he reached it (somehow ironic, isn't it?). But he _was_<BR>
successful in destroying the Roman Republic, true.(Even though one could<BR>
argue that this was process begun even earlier.)<BR>
<BR>
>as did Napoleon.<BR>
<BR>
IMHO not a good example. The young French Republic was already dead when he<BR>
rose to power. (Robespierre was good symptom for this, I think.)<BR>
<BR>
>Single party governments are another form of this shill.<BR>
<BR>
So _that_ is good example. Significant resistance against such a try is a<BR>
good sign of a healthy republic. Healthy means: People _care_ about their<BR>
republic. If they don't, it's just what you said: The republic will vanish.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:03:16 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
At 10:01 29.02.00 -0800, you wrote (more than once...):<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>The  lag would result in decentralisation,like with<BR>
>the US states,not in a galactic autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I wouldn't state this in this way. For a culture like the mixed<BR>
Vilani-Solomani in the 3I, it may be reasonable to say that a republic<BR>
wouldn't work for long. (Since people must accept a republic for it to be<BR>
successful, for examples see German history, for example. Obviously all you<BR>
have to do is show tham cinvincigly that it's better for their _economy_.<BR>
Especially  the local pressure groups must know this, then there's no<BR>
problem.)<BR>
<BR>
>> >Not really. You are confusing "fuedal" and<BR>
>> "inherited position". Fuedal<BR>
>> >setups are nothing more (or less) than aset of<BR>
>> voluntarily entered into<BR>
>> >"contracts" (oaths of fealty) where the superior<BR>
>> and inferior lay out<BR>
>> >the rights and duties going *both* ways.<BR>
><BR>
>This "rights (to rule) and duties " is so old as it is<BR>
>junk.<BR>
<BR>
I see what you mean, and I agree basically, but... could you try not to<BR>
insult others accidentically? <BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>> But that's a much harder political move to do than<BR>
>> just waitng for new<BR>
>> elections.<BR>
><BR>
>Officials are thrown out on a regular base,in fear of<BR>
>loosing the next election.Try this in a stellar<BR>
>autocracy.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I meant. _Some_ division of power is always there. Mostly, but<BR>
not always to the best of the people.<BR>
<BR>
>> >"Inherited nobles" actually *do* have an advantage<BR>
>> over a republic. You<BR>
>> >know who is going to hold the position *years* in<BR>
>> advance. As well as<BR>
>> >who will hold it if something happens to him. Which<BR>
>> means you can<BR>
>> >*train* him or her for the job.<BR>
><BR>
>I didn't know that there were still some people out<BR>
>there who believe this junk.<BR>
<BR>
Please remove the last word. Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps they see<BR>
>themselves as rulers of an empire (or an interstellar<BR>
>duchy),so they feel the urge to justify autocratic,<BR>
>heredetary rule.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there are people who actually believe that this style of government<BR>
is better than a republic. I don't aggree with them, obviously you don't,<BR>
but it's not very helpful to charge them as you do here. It just isn't very<BR>
likely to convince anyone if you tell him he's an asshole, you know...<BR>
<BR>
>For a funny,if sad example of a jerk trained from<BR>
>birth to take daddies position,see:<BR>
><BR>
><http://www.gwbush.com><BR>
<BR>
This is _far_ OT. Please. It doesn't help to include any<BR>
real-world-politics in such a discussion.<BR>
 <BR>
>> Actually, I wouldn't see this as an advantage of<BR>
>> inherison as a principle<BR>
>> of succession over a republican style one. After<BR>
>> all, Nobody reaching any<BR>
>> level of power in a demorcarcy can ddo so without<BR>
>> convincing the voters<BR>
>> that he /she can do the job. <BR>
>> I think the real point for the heir-type succession<BR>
>> of power is that those<BR>
>> who own the power typically love their children more<BR>
>> than the rest of the<BR>
>> population and want the as good a postion as they<BR>
>> have- one day. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Another reason might be belief in/knowledge<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah,right.<BR>
<BR>
:-) <BR>
For an SF universe, we can assume such knowledge. Just for the fun of it,<BR>
don't you aggree? BTW: We as GM's need _villains_. Where are they to come<BR>
from if we abolish all bad guys? <BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
> of<BR>
>> genetic inherison of certain<BR>
>> administrative or military skills or talents. <BR>
>> (Some of these points two can be observed in North<BR>
>> Korea, where some kind<BR>
>> of inherited "monarchy" is slowly manifesting<BR>
>> istself- the current leader<BR>
>> ruling in the 2nd generation...at least it seems to<BR>
>> me that the 3rd might<BR>
>> happen to rule one day...)<BR>
><BR>
>N Korea.A country that was ruined due to hereditary<BR>
>autocracy.It won't last long anymore.The current<BR>
>leader will be happy if the 3rd generation<BR>
>SURVIVES!<BR>
<BR>
Well, I didn't stat that the government there was any effective. Only in<BR>
power. That's all. Perhaps some day they will be removed, perhaps not.<BR>
We'll see.<BR>
<BR>
>Democracy is on the rise everywhere,even,<BR>
<BR>
*even*?<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
>as this discussion indicates, among Traveller fans.<BR>
<BR>
What has an SF universe got to do with ideology? (other than observing it)<BR>
<BR>
>> Anyway, this leads to nothing. The question I was<BR>
>> asking was why the<BR>
>> distance (and the communication lag that is a result<BR>
>> of it) should require<BR>
>> a local officeholder _not_ to be elected by the<BR>
>> local population.<BR>
><BR>
>No,it would actually prohibit one.See the american<BR>
>revolution for an autocratic ruler far away from his<BR>
>superiors.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that depends much on the conditions. IIRC that tea party was first of<BR>
all due to a king/queen being not very smart. Lower taxes might have helped<BR>
to prevent the U.S. (OTOH, without it the Nazis would have won WWII, so<BR>
good the Brits were that insensitive in the 18th century...that's history:<BR>
you never know what it's good for...)<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> I still can't see a reason why this shouldn't work,<BR>
>> even for a quite large<BR>
>> TU government- but then again, it's just me. Can<BR>
>> anyone help?<BR>
> <BR>
>Well.the authors of Traveller just wanted an empire as<BR>
>the background,and cooked up a pseudoscientific<BR>
>explanation.It's just that.<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
Of course, that is the most probable reason. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:35:26 -0800<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
>On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 00:37:54 -0800 (PST), john hamilton <BR>
><johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
> > "Carry a knife, but don't carry a gun.  You'll be<BR>
> > tempted to<BR>
> > shoot back, and then you can be located and killed"<BR>
> > or words to<BR>
> > that effect.<BR>
><BR>
>When they spot you (and modern armies have plenty of<BR>
>resources to do that) ,then you're basicly located,and<BR>
>since your unarmed,you are effectoivly caught.<BR>
><BR>
>Why carry a knife at all.Are they gighting cave men<BR>
>instead of TL 7+ soldiers?<BR>
><BR>
>Heinlein's bits look interesting on paper,but absurd<BR>
>when reality-checked.<BR>
<BR>
It should be noted that in this case, the Marine-type big sister was giving <BR>
her brother some advice about his school survival test.  One where you were <BR>
dropped off in some untamed environment and expected to survive until <BR>
pickup.  While you might go up against the local wildlife or other hazards, <BR>
you would NOT be facing enemy soldiers.  Though you might face other <BR>
classmates, in some circumstances...<BR>
<BR>
And the thrust of her advice was not so much about "shooting back", as the <BR>
feeling of false confidence about facing ANY situation that having a <BR>
firearm supposedly gives you:  "three meters tall and covered with hair" <BR>
(ie, a total badass) is her quote, which I remember well.  Heinlein also, <BR>
by way of example, gives us another classmate who shows up for the test <BR>
with a top-of-the-line energy weapon.  He's dead within the first day <BR>
(possibly because someone mugged him for it).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:54:32 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: PCMP = Penguin Cannon...<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
>Subject: PCMP = Penguin Cannon, Man Portable (was Re: Heaven & Earth)<BR>
...<BR>
>>you could also summon the SS Wiking Panzergruppe under certain<BR>
>>circumstances.  It was one of my favorite games for a while.  <BR>
><BR>
>Not just the SS Wiking Division...you could also summon the <BR>
>Continental Seige Machine, i.e. one of Steve Jackson's Ogres.<BR>
<BR>
  Aren't they a PG div? That would actually be a lot more useful in<BR>
a fantasy world :><BR>
<BR>
>But the attack of the Killer Penguins was always my favorite.<BR>
<BR>
  And (IIRC) the Tyranosaurus Rexinator, which is a lot more fearsome<BR>
than the admittedly desirable Penguin Generator (tm).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:54:38 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
...<BR>
>a supressed bolt-action .45 that was as close to silent as I've ever heard.<BR>
>The only sound I heard, both firing and observing, was a muffled *thwip* of<BR>
>the round going down range.<BR>
<BR>
  ISTR a WW2-era suppressable carbine in .45 ACP - the DeLisle?<BR>
<BR>
>>Remember the whole point of recon is to avoid being found, not to shoot <BR>
>>the bad guys. Despite all those neat gadgets well trained troops can <BR>
>>hide surprisingly well, especially in areas of dense vegitation.<BR>
><BR>
>The perfect recon mission comes back with all it's ammo.<BR>
<BR>
  There's some long passages in a recent (?) Osprey book on WW2 recon<BR>
cars to that effect - e.g., shooting up a truck convoy may be gratifying,<BR>
but getting past and further into the rear w/o having the alarm go up is<BR>
_more important in the long run_.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:50:00 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
>>_Has_ the 3I a constitution like most modern-day-earth<BR>
states?)<BR>
><BR>
>The Imperium has the Warrant of Restoration, which is the <BR>
>Preamble to its Constitution, and the Imperial Edicts. These <BR>
>are the basis of Imperial Law. The Constitution set's up the <BR>
>position of Emperor, the formation of the Moot, prohibits <BR>
>slavery, declares the extrality of starports, etc. There is no <BR>
>mention of civil or personal rights (other than not to be a <BR>
>slave.)<BR>
<BR>
Not in my Traveller Universe.  <BR>
<BR>
Cleon I specifically declined to have a constitution, as that<BR>
would interfere with the Emperor's ability to rule absolutely. <BR>
The Warrant of Restoration is the founding document, which<BR>
simply provides that there is now a Third Grand Empire of the<BR>
Stars.  <BR>
<BR>
Imperial edicts provide the bulk of Imperial law.  Ministerial<BR>
regulations are the second major source of Imperial law. <BR>
Prohibition of slavery is an Imperial edict.  Extrality of<BR>
starports is an Imperial policy set forth in an Imperial edict. <BR>
Specific terms of extrality are set forth in each member world's<BR>
membership treaty with the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The Moot is a traditional consultative body, comprised of<BR>
nobles, that predates the Third Imperium.  Cleon kept it in<BR>
order to maintain the support of the nobility, and to<BR>
acculturate nobles of new members into the new Imperial order. <BR>
The Moot exercises some quasi-judicial and quasi-legislative<BR>
powers, but its only power that the Emperors have ever<BR>
recognized is the power to dissolve the Imperium.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:52:48 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: another example<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson writes:<BR>
> >From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> ><BR>
> >Actually, there are lots of us.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >An autocracy is more efficient than all but a fascist dictatorship, and<BR>
> >has a higher capacity for being better for more of it's citizens than a<BR>
> >representative democracy.<BR>
<BR>
An autocracy is _capable_ of being extremely efficient.  The vast majority<BR>
of real-world autocracies are not efficient, however, mostly because (a) as<BR>
a rule of thumb autocrats are no smarter than any other sort of politician,<BR>
and (b) a lot of autocrats are truly paranoid about their personal wealth<BR>
and power, and create police states and thugocracies to enforce it.<BR>
<BR>
Politicians in other forms of government are also frequently concerned with<BR>
their own personal wealth and power, but oppressing the population is usually<BR>
not an effective method of maintaining power in a democracy.<BR>
> <BR>
>   It would probably help to specify what efficient means in this context;<BR>
> I think that I know what you mean, but most people are going to get upset<BR>
> because democracy is supposed to be about the untidy and inefficient<BR>
> discourse that allows trade-offs between different interests and groups<BR>
> in society (which is a sick joke in most modern democracies...).<BR>
<BR>
Well, no, democracy is about rule by 'the people'.  In real-world states it<BR>
tends to be combined with capitalism (which is not intrinsically related) <BR>
into a sort of democracy/plutocracy.<BR>
> <BR>
>   But then, representative democracy can be called an oxymoron, and the<BR>
> injustice of a political system that doesn't give most of its large <BR>
> mammalian inhabitants the vote is obvious.<BR>
<BR>
Representative democracy is not obviously an oxymoron, its just obviously<BR>
different from direct democracy.  And as far as it goes, I see little need<BR>
to give votes to cattle, horses, and other animals.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:54:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Doug "PenguinBoy" Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Not all guns are noisy. The SEALs have a little toy called the Mk-22 "Hush<BR>
> Puppy." Fires a .22 sub-sonic round from a closed bolt, with a heavy<BR>
> supressor. The only sound is the *click* of the hammer falling. I've fired<BR>
> a supressed bolt-action .45 that was as close to silent as I've ever heard.<BR>
> The only sound I heard, both firing and observing, was a muffled *thwip* of<BR>
> the round going down range.<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of which, the ATF paperwork finally came back and Lori took<BR>
possession of that little .45 cal beauty on her birthday last month.<BR>
It'll be here for you & Jesse & Co. when you guys come up for the<BR>
next shoot.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: What kind of covert weapons would be used by 3I special forces?<BR>
Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature, beam weapons<BR>
would be detectable (visually, aurally, or by thermal detection gear),<BR>
and subsonic slug-throwers probably would lack the power to penetrate<BR>
combat armor/battle dress.<BR>
<BR>
My best guess would be some kind of EMP weapon with a very narrow beam.<BR>
You nail the sentry with it; he falls (immobilized and out of communication<BR>
with his superiors); you advance and terminate him with a hand weapon.<BR>
<BR>
> The real reason we carry knives (in the US Army at least) is that MRE<BR>
> packages are impossible to open without them.<BR>
<BR>
Amen, brother, amen. :^)<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), GOA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:57:43 -0500 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (wandering OT-ish)<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
>Well, I remember an episode when Picard said "When I fought against some <BR>
>Antarean renegades...". And remember the Maquis. There were heavily <BR>
>fought by Starfleet.<BR>
<BR>
The Antarean renegades were probably renegades against their home planet.<BR>
Since the Antarean fleet has joined up with Starfleet, now Starfleet has<BR>
to handle off-planet (or out-system) policing problems. That isn't the<BR>
same as keeping a planet in the fold by force.<BR>
<BR>
As for the Maquis, that whole political situation was a mess I only<BR>
caught bits of. IIRC, one way of looking at it: some squatters beyond<BR>
the Federation frontier were expecting, since they had come from the<BR>
Federation, that their land claims would be treated as Federation<BR>
territory and that they'd get Starfleet protection if another<BR>
interstellar polity moved in. Due to the political and diplomatic <BR>
situation with the Cardassians, the Federation declined to claim that<BR>
particular section of space or contest the Cardassian claim to it. Oops.<BR>
<BR>
Also, it seems Starfleet fought as hard *for* the Maquis as against.<BR>
Those photon torpedo shipments didn't come from Quark's House of <BR>
Discount Weapons.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:47:09 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
At 09:21 01.03.00 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
>Why does the Imperium outlaw slavery? Does this only apply to commerce<BR>
between >worlds, or does it mean that if the Imperium integrates a world<BR>
with a Roman style >of Government, they intervene to free all the slaves?<BR>
<BR>
IIRC the ban on slavery is for all member planets. If you are member wrld,<BR>
and you have slaves, wait a moment, the Marines will talk to you. At least<BR>
in theory.<BR>
<BR>
The main reason for this was IMO agin a cultural one: Probably it was<BR>
assumed by early Imperial burocrats that most of the former territory of<BR>
the Rule Of Man had some resentiment against the idea of enslavin a sophot<BR>
bein. Perhaps this was also part of Sylean culture. Since in high-tech-<BR>
society, the economic gain from slavery is in doubt (perhaps except for sex<BR>
services), there was no real economic reason against it, but at least one<BR>
political reason _for_ forbidding slavery in the Imperium- et voila.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this is just the way I see it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:05:52 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
At 12:08 01.03.00 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>So there's another set of interstellar democracies:  socialist democracies!<BR>
>These would be states with radically democratic republican governments,<BR>
>high degrees of state ownership in the economy (but perhaps with some<BR>
>fairly small scale private property as well), and economic planning. <BR>
<BR>
Economic planning(non-market economy), uhmm, well, _that_ is one thing I<BR>
understand that it requires a quick communication. I mean, they were<BR>
inflexible on 20th century earth, with nearly.instaneous communication...<BR>
<BR>
>They<BR>
>would probably feature state-owned merchant lines, and might not be<BR>
>particularly lucrative markets for free traders.  All trade would go<BR>
>through state-owned brokers.  The interstellar government would be<BR>
>essentially defensive in nature, but would be paralleled by the economic<BR>
>planning agencies.  There might also be some more capitalistic worlds<BR>
>associated with them.  These would probably be fairly backward, but might<BR>
>be slowly growing relatively high-tech state-owned enterprises.<BR>
><BR>
>The Imperium (that is, the megacorps) might hate their guts, but might also<BR>
>tolerate them, if some kind of trade agreements could be reached.  <BR>
<BR>
Which would cost that gouvernment much of their credibilty(exp?). Well, a<BR>
non-market econmy in a small client state wouldn't be allowed to survive by<BR>
the 3I, I think.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, I used the very 3I as this rationale, though more an ideologic one:<BR>
>> The external threat of the newly-founded 3I helped to meld together<BR>
>> several democratic planetary gouvernments. Perhaps _roughly_ comparable<BR>
>> to founding the EU today, with all the developments probably to come.<BR>
><BR>
>Another possibility is that a revolution occurred in an existing autocratic<BR>
>state, and spread, possibly at bayonet point, to all the old state's<BR>
>worlds.<BR>
><BR>
>Alternatively, a democratic planetary government might start crusading, and<BR>
>spread its form of government to neighbouring worlds, at least sometimes by<BR>
>force.<BR>
<BR>
I thought about these two approaches before. I came to the conclusion that<BR>
in such a case, the Imperium would very likely have intervened, either by<BR>
replacing the new gouvernment militarily or by sending in spies and the<BR>
like to ineffect take control of the new gouvernment. But I wanted that<BR>
Allianceto be relatively independent, so I rejected these approaches.<BR>
<BR>
>> >I've a couple of small states already worked up for this concept. If I<BR>
>> >can be on any assistance. Please advise.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I have several smaller states in MTU which I haven't yet developed.<BR>
>> Perhaps you could post some  descriptions of these interstellar states<BR>
>> here on the TML? (since I think it might be interesting for more than<BR>
>> only me)<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, do please.  I like reading stuff like this, even when I don't use it. <BR>
>I might even rummage around and dig up some old notes of my own, or even<BR>
>churn out a new one.<BR>
><BR>
>Hmm.  Thinks:  sooner or later we'll get a satisfactory scalable<BR>
>political/economic/military simulator.<BR>
<BR>
Rather later, I fear. The Illuminati will surpress this as long as it<BR>
doesn't fit in their plans. Believe me. I tried to program one.<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:09:51 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
<BR>
>Why does the Imperium outlaw slavery? <BR>
<BR>
I think there are two main reasons:  <BR>
(1) Slavery was a major problem during the Long Night and other<BR>
times of disorder, and the part of the Imperium's marketing was<BR>
that it would protect new members and their citizens/subjects<BR>
from enslavement.<BR>
(2) Slavery is bad for business; the megacorporations and other<BR>
capitalists are operating in capitalist environment that<BR>
requires wage workers.  (I leave the rest of this analysis to<BR>
Kyle Schuant.)  <BR>
<BR>
>Does this only apply to commerce between worlds, or does it <BR>
>mean that if the Imperium integrates a world with a Roman style<BR>
<BR>
>of Government, they intervene to free all the slaves?<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium will intervene to free the slaves and transform the<BR>
local government and culture as necessary; this is one of the<BR>
very, very few exceptions to the Imperium's principle of local<BR>
autonomy.  Slaves might very well revolt and take over if they<BR>
learned that the Imperium was considering their world for<BR>
membership.  <BR>
<BR>
The reason for this exception to the local autonomy rule is that<BR>
a world with a slave culture could become a source or<BR>
destination for slave trading.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:14:17 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>We are capable of tracking people by their cell phones today. <BR>
>When you turn on your cell phone, the phone communicates with <BR>
>the network, telling it where you are and who you are. So the <BR>
>network already knows roughly where you (or at least your phone) <BR>
>is, or at least which cell it is in. The technology just isn't there yet <BR>
>for an arbitrary user to query the network to get this information.<BR>
<BR>
For now, we are limited to location by cell.  However, in a recent <BR>
issue of Popular Science they mentioned that in a year or two <BR>
cellphones would likely have some kind of chip to allow them to be <BR>
located exactly using the GPS network.  The concept was billed as <BR>
a way to help emergency services personnel find folks, but I can <BR>
also see many other more dubious uses.  <BR>
<BR>
In short, even today privacy is getting to be pretty illusory, and as <BR>
time goes on, anyone who doesn't live in a shack in the wilderness <BR>
w/o any electricity is going be *very* easy to track.  Such is life in <BR>
the 21st.  In a decade or less it will likely be rather easy for a <BR>
government with an interest in such things to check every <BR>
phonecall and email message in their nation for certain key words <BR>
and phrases.  The question then is how should such technology be <BR>
used or not used.  The only certainties are that this technology will <BR>
exist and that someone will be wanting to use it.   <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:31:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation <BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: low-level teleportation (was Re: CT psionic<BR>
>question)<BR>
<BR>
>The problem is that the adhesive *makes* it part of the body, <BR>
>and given that Traveller tries to have even teleportation obey <BR>
>conservation laws, this means that since the patch is<BR>
>*physically* part of their body, to get rid of it requires <BR>
>supplying the energy required to break the chemical bonds. That<BR>
<BR>
>energy is equivalent to dragging along a *lot* of kilos.  As I <BR>
>point out in another message, allowing teleportation to break <BR>
>physical bonds makes it *way* to powerful.<BR>
<BR>
That's a good analysis, and has changed my mind on this subject.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
Low-level teleporters in my Traveller Universe now have to watch<BR>
out for super-adhesive bondage.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:39:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin had written:<BR>
>>At TL9 I can say "Computer, where is Karen?" If I'm at home, <BR>
>>my computer will recognize my voice and know from context that<BR>
<BR>
>>I mean my wife. It will then interrogate other networks to <BR>
>>find her location, maybe by the location of her cell phone. It<BR>
<BR>
>>gets the location of the cell she is in and compares the <BR>
>>location to maps it knows of. After a few seconds the computer<BR>
<BR>
>>will reply "Karen is at the Stanford Town Center mall."<BR>
<BR>
"Chauncey Smith" replied<BR>
>I don't know why but if that was the case I would only carry my<BR>
<BR>
>cellphone as my job required and not for personal use. I <BR>
>completely comfortable with picking up the phone and having a <BR>
>computer dial a number even though I wonder how much of the <BR>
>call is then electronically recorded. But the idea of <BR>
>tracking me is scary. I wonder how many other ppl would think <BR>
>this is an intrusion in their privacy. or worst then that. Only<BR>
<BR>
>the honest ppl would be able to be tracked and want the <BR>
<BR>
I'm with Chauncey on this -- and Luther, do you really want to<BR>
hear the computer say, "Karen is at her ex-boyfriend's<BR>
apartment"?  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1985<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1986</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1986<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: minutes of Fame<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: We are komink....<BR>
re:  minutes of Fame<BR>
Dead Emperors<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation <BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Fit like they're painted on (was Re: CT psionic question)<BR>
Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: InterstellarDemocracies IYTU)<BR>
Re: CT psionic question<BR>
Re: Tunnel in the Sky was CT Psionic Question<BR>
Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (wandering OT-ish)<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:43:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: minutes of Fame<BR>
<BR>
At 12:35 PM 3/1/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>The kind people over at KFOG radio gave our beloved PenguinBoy another<BR>
>Minute of Fame this morning by giving him the opportunity to tell another of <BR>
>his "No S**t there I was, driving..." stories on the air. Seems they were <BR>
>talking about local efforts to ban cellular phone use while driving, and <BR>
>Doug had a germane example...<BR>
<BR>
Christ, is my voice that recognizable?  But I'm not done yet!  Watch the<BR>
Chron letter page in the next few days...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:34:42<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 10:54 AM 3/1/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Doug "PenguinBoy" Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Speaking of which, the ATF paperwork finally came back and Lori took<BR>
>possession of that little .45 cal beauty on her birthday last month.<BR>
>It'll be here for you & Jesse & Co. when you guys come up for the<BR>
>next shoot.<BR>
<BR>
far out! maybe I'll remember how to load it this time!<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav: What kind of covert weapons would be used by 3I special forces?<BR>
>Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature, beam weapons<BR>
>would be detectable (visually, aurally, or by thermal detection gear),<BR>
>and subsonic slug-throwers probably would lack the power to penetrate<BR>
>combat armor/battle dress.<BR>
<BR>
A recon team would avoid augmented troops. To the point of calling the<BR>
mission if BD equipped troops showed up. Too risky.<BR>
<BR>
For sentry elimiantion, I'd use a gauss rifle set to fire just below the<BR>
speed of sound. Or tranq rounds.<BR>
<BR>
>> The real reason we carry knives (in the US Army at least) is that MRE<BR>
>> packages are impossible to open without them.<BR>
><BR>
>Amen, brother, amen. :^)<BR>
<BR>
Saw an engineer blow open a bag once. Amazing what you can do with<BR>
detcord...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:37:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: We are komink....<BR>
<BR>
At 06:13 PM 3/1/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
>"The Penguins are coming, coming for you."<BR>
<BR>
<Invasion of the Body Snatchers><BR>
"They'll get you, please listen to me!" Doug grabs onto a passing truck,<BR>
stsres horrified at the legion of penguins calmly staring back. "It's to<BR>
late, the're here! And you're next!!"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:45:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  minutes of Fame<BR>
<BR>
>From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>The kind people over at KFOG radio gave our beloved PenguinBoy <BR>
>another Minute of Fame this morning by giving him the<BR>
>opportunity to tell another ofhis "No S**t there I was, <BR>
>driving..." stories on the air. Seems they were talking about <BR>
>local efforts to ban cellular phone use while driving, and Doug<BR>
<BR>
>had a germane example...<BR>
<BR>
When was that?  I was had KFOG on this morning while driving to<BR>
work, but didn't hear it.  Maybe it was while I was checking my<BR>
voice mail messages.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 11:51:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Dead Emperors<BR>
<BR>
As promised to the Traveller Mailing List mant moons ago the photos of<BR>
Emperor Norton's grave are now up at:<BR>
<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/grave.html<BR>
<BR>
Also included are several tombstones I found amusing. Enjoy!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Wide unclasp    | These same thoughts<BR>
the tables of   | people this<BR>
their thoughts. | little World<BR>
<BR>
- - stained glass window in the <BR>
  Winchester Mystery House.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:07:36 -0600 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin posted:<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>Low-level teleporters in my Traveller Universe now have to watch<BR>
>out for super-adhesive bondage.<BR>
><BR>
>- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Soooo...you allow bondage in your campaign, eh, Glenn?<BR>
Oh, well, as long as the participants are consenting adults.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
:P<BR>
<BR>
(sorry. couldn't resist.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
(too much work, not enough Traveller)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:13:53 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation <BR>
<BR>
 >The problem is that the adhesive *makes* it part of the body,<BR>
 >and given that Traveller tries to have even teleportation obey<BR>
 >conservation laws, this means that since the patch is<BR>
 >*physically* part of their body, to get rid of it requires<BR>
 >supplying the energy required to break the chemical bonds. That<BR>
><BR>
 >energy is equivalent to dragging along a *lot* of kilos.  As I<BR>
 >point out in another message, allowing teleportation to break<BR>
 >physical bonds makes it *way* to powerful.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that most adhesives actually make a chemical bond with the<BR>
stuff they are sticking together. There are some exceptions, of course. For<BR>
example, I think that rubber cement actually forms chemical bonds. My<BR>
understanding of most of these products is that they just flow into the<BR>
small iregularities on a surface and harden, but don't actually form<BR>
chemical bonds. If this is the case, then you should easily be able to<BR>
teleport away. If you are actually forming a chemical bond with the human<BR>
flesh, it's probably too messy to think about (but probably possible).<BR>
<BR>
Even if an adhesive is chemically bonded to a teleporter, they should still<BR>
be able to teleport away. Traveller lets you do odd things with<BR>
teleportation, but suffer the possible consequences. For example, you can<BR>
change elevation, but you have to worry about the possible thermal effects<BR>
you may suffer. I seem to recall that the Zhodani managed to reach orbit by<BR>
teleporting, so you can probably stretch this fairly far.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:47:22 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
>------------------------------><BR>
>Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:54:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>
>From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
>Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav: What kind of covert weapons would be used by 3I special forces?<BR>
>Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature, beam weapons<BR>
>would be detectable (visually, aurally, or by thermal detection gear),<BR>
>and subsonic slug-throwers probably would lack the power to penetrate<BR>
>combat armor/battle dress.<BR>
><BR>
>My best guess would be some kind of EMP weapon with a very narrow beam.<BR>
>You nail the sentry with it; he falls (immobilized and out of communication<BR>
>with his superiors); you advance and terminate him with a hand weapon.<BR>
<BR>
I'd go with a gauss gun. A custom made version should be able to vary the<BR>
velocity<BR>
from subsonic to supersonic by just using more or less power.<BR>
<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Anime Line Developer and Senior Staff Writer<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:54:47 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Fit like they're painted on (was Re: CT psionic question)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:06:14 -0500 (EST), Glenn Goffin<BR>
<gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I recently saw a Victoria's Secret special in which bathing suit<BR>
>designer just painted the suits onto the models.<BR>
<BR>
This was also true of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue of<BR>
1999.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:03:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: InterstellarDemocracies IYTU)<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:59:55   Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Besides, what (internally) does the Federation have to enforce? It's<BR>
>>a voluntary organization, planets ask to join and can leave whenever<BR>
>>they want to. The benefits of staying in are what keeps the Federation<BR>
>>together, not the rapid dispatch of battlecruisers.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I remember an episode when Picard said "When I fought against some<BR>
>Antarean renegades...". And remember the Maquis. There were heavily fought<BR>
>by Starfleet. Sometimes I'm even not sure whether the ST Feds are a<BR>
>democracy. Never heard of any elecetions there... Sure, they have a<BR>
>president- but look a South America. They had even more presidents there...<BR>
>;-)<BR>
I have had many amusing discussions with a friend of mine about the 'Evil' Federation that exists in Star Trek. We tend to point out the following.<BR>
- - There is no crime on Earth..... yet what is the New Zealand Penal Colony for?<BR>
- - They mercilessly allow the extinction of entire races, citing the 'Prime Directive' as the reason for not lifting a finger.<BR>
- - They traded away the territory of Federation citizens (the marquis) to an autocratic government to secure peace on the frontier.<BR>
- - They man their starships with children and take them into battle<BR>
<BR>
It's our belief that they are actually the same federation that exists in 'Blakes 7'. They even have the same symbol (admittedly in Blakes 7 it seems to have fallen on it side). I can just see Servilan manipulating the strings of the Star Trek Federation.<BR>
<BR>
Scout<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:11:29 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Mar 00, at 7:03, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:29 PM 3/1/2000 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Why carry a knife at all.Are they gighting cave men<BR>
> >> instead of TL 7+ soldiers?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Because knives are useful for quietly killing sentrys, whereas guns are<BR>
> >noisy.<BR>
> <BR>
> It's usually easier to avoid sentries with enough training and discipline.<BR>
> I once had a LP/OP trooper urinate on my ghilie suit, while my spotter<BR>
> inflicted great damage to himself trying to keep from laughing.<BR>
<BR>
I know what you mean. I was on OP one day and got to watch a whole <BR>
section walk past in touching distace in broad daylight (it was in NZ <BR>
bush though, which is fairly thick).<BR>
<BR>
> Not all guns are noisy. The SEALs have a little toy called the Mk-22 "Hush<BR>
> Puppy." Fires a .22 sub-sonic round from a closed bolt, with a heavy<BR>
> supressor. The only sound is the *click* of the hammer falling. I've fired<BR>
> a supressed bolt-action .45 that was as close to silent as I've ever<BR>
> heard. The only sound I heard, both firing and observing, was a muffled<BR>
> *thwip* of the round going down range.<BR>
> <BR>
> The problem with knives is that it's very hard to kill somebody with one<BR>
> without the target making some sort of noise. The so-called "off-swicth"<BR>
> at the base of the skull requires a great amount of skill to hit, and that<BR>
> your target doesn't do anything as inconveinent as moving.<BR>
<BR>
The same applies with guns, though.<BR>
<BR>
> The real reason we carry knives (in the US Army at least) is that MRE<BR>
> packages are impossible to open without them.<BR>
<BR>
We carried them because they're useful for cutting bits of twine, etc, <BR>
etc. Our rations came in cans and they even provided us with can <BR>
openers.<BR>
<BR>
> >> Heinlein's bits look interesting on paper,but absurd<BR>
> >> when reality-checked.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Remember the whole point of recon is to avoid being found, not to shoot<BR>
> >the bad guys. Despite all those neat gadgets well trained troops can hide<BR>
> >surprisingly well, especially in areas of dense vegitation.<BR>
> <BR>
> The perfect recon mission comes back with all it's ammo.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. I remember going out on 2 man recon patrols with just our M16s. A <BR>
throughly naked feeling when you normally go out in section sized <BR>
groups with GLs, MGs and LAWs. SOP if contacted (as in they saw you): <BR>
dump a mag in the general direction of the enemy to keep their heads <BR>
down and run like hell.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:11:29 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Tunnel in the Sky was CT Psionic Question<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Mar 00, at 8:53, Chris Dixon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I seem to remember Tunnel in the Sky was more along the lines of<BR>
> exploration and colonization rather than soldiers duking it out.  The idea<BR>
> was that you'd train on a new world sort of like the Scout boot camp from<BR>
> hell.  There were other recruits out there but it wasn't a "war" situation<BR>
> at all.  I think under that context his idea is pretty sound (stay alert<BR>
> stay alive.)<BR>
<BR>
Roddy's (the hero) sister was definately part of a military unit, and <BR>
had seen action, but I got the impression that it was mostly against <BR>
rebelious colonists, and was thus probably not against heavily <BR>
fortified positions or heavy armour, etc. OTOH this means you're <BR>
fighting professional survival experts in a guerilla type war.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:18:28 +0000<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (wandering OT-ish)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 01 Mar 2000, you wrote:<BR>
> Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> >Well, I remember an episode when Picard said "When I fought against some <BR>
> >Antarean renegades...". And remember the Maquis. There were heavily <BR>
> >fought by Starfleet.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Antarean renegades were probably renegades against their home planet.<BR>
> Since the Antarean fleet has joined up with Starfleet, now Starfleet has<BR>
> to handle off-planet (or out-system) policing problems. That isn't the<BR>
> same as keeping a planet in the fold by force.<BR>
> <BR>
> As for the Maquis, that whole political situation was a mess I only<BR>
> caught bits of. IIRC, one way of looking at it: some squatters beyond<BR>
> the Federation frontier were expecting, since they had come from the<BR>
> Federation, that their land claims would be treated as Federation<BR>
> territory and that they'd get Starfleet protection if another<BR>
> interstellar polity moved in. Due to the political and diplomatic <BR>
> situation with the Cardassians, the Federation declined to claim that<BR>
> particular section of space or contest the Cardassian claim to it. Oops.<BR>
<BR>
Not quite.  The Cardassians and the Federation had been fighting over something<BR>
and came to a peacefull settlement.  This settlement involved a redefining of<BR>
borders, which left several (low population?) federation worlds either in<BR>
Cardasian space or some sort of 'neutral zone' inbetween.  The federation was<BR>
all prepared to resettle the inhabitants but many of them decided to stay with<BR>
there homes.  Then the Cardassians moved in and, as these things have a habit<BR>
of doing, violence erupted.  This gave rise to the Marqui as a resistance<BR>
movement against the Cardassians, with a huge chip on their shoulder about<BR>
being 'abandoned' by the federation.<BR>
<BR>
I only caught bits of this plot too, but this was my impression from the<BR>
episodes that I saw.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, it seems Starfleet fought as hard *for* the Maquis as against.<BR>
> Those photon torpedo shipments didn't come from Quark's House of <BR>
> Discount Weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Some individuals within Starfleet were of the opinion that the federation<BR>
shouldn't have made the decision that it had, and wanted to help there comrades.<BR>
 Several Maqui members were ex-Starfleet, usually the really good pilots.  But<BR>
then everyone in Starfleet with a speaking part seemed to be an ace at the<BR>
flight controls.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell<BR>
kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:37:34 +0000<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 01 Mar 2000, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
> From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> For now, we are limited to location by cell.  However, in a recent <BR>
> issue of Popular Science they mentioned that in a year or two <BR>
> cellphones would likely have some kind of chip to allow them to be <BR>
> located exactly using the GPS network.  The concept was billed as <BR>
> a way to help emergency services personnel find folks, but I can <BR>
> also see many other more dubious uses.  <BR>
<BR>
Don't forget to connect that in with your car's navigation system, or when you<BR>
need to ask the police to track your stolen phone.  But the thieves will find<BR>
someway round that or there is no point stealing them.  Take it further, a<BR>
crime happens at a given time and place.  Quick check of the GPS logs to find<BR>
all the witnesses/suspects, or maybe even the dumb criminal who had his phone<BR>
with him.  This leads to the suspicion that if someone dosn't have a phone with<BR>
them they aren't to be trusted.  Why don't they want the System to know where<BR>
they are?  Will you be barred from entering some public places without a phone?<BR>
<BR>
Pros and Cons.  It's gonna happen sooner or later, to compete the manfacturers<BR>
need to keep adding new features and finding ways to sell the benifits to<BR>
people.  Public opinion can be manipulated.  If the people with money want you<BR>
to buy into an idea they'll find a way.<BR>
<BR>
Take Genetically Modified food.  How to make it palitable (groan) to the<BR>
masses, in 3, probably not that easy, steps:<BR>
<BR>
1) Put together a few pop groups that will appeal to the teenage masses. <BR>
Carefully vet your groups members to be pro you cause - natch.<BR>
<BR>
2) Build the groups up and establish a large fan base.<BR>
<BR>
3) When one or two of your groups have the rabid-fan-factor begin the<BR>
endorsements, 'Soy-Burgers!  Collect four tokens and receive your exclusive<BR>
Spice Guys CD FREE!!'<BR>
<BR>
Ok I'll admit it.  That doesn't read that well.  I had the picture in my mind<BR>
of some smiling teen-boy band eating soy-burgers on burger bar beset by<BR>
photographers and screaming little girls.<BR>
<BR>
> In short, even today privacy is getting to be pretty illusory, and as <BR>
> time goes on, anyone who doesn't live in a shack in the wilderness <BR>
> w/o any electricity is going be *very* easy to track.  Such is life in <BR>
> the 21st.  In a decade or less it will likely be rather easy for a <BR>
> government with an interest in such things to check every <BR>
> phonecall and email message in their nation for certain key words <BR>
> and phrases.  The question then is how should such technology be <BR>
> used or not used.  The only certainties are that this technology will <BR>
> exist and that someone will be wanting to use it.   <BR>
<BR>
I'm not so sure about that.  Could you imagine the wasted man hours following<BR>
up on the leads such a system would bring up.  I mean, have you used a web<BR>
search engine lately?  Just watch any sitcom to see the humerous consequences<BR>
of not getting the full context of a conversions.  Scale that up to the<BR>
millions++ of phone calls made everyday.  You'll hit enough false alarms to<BR>
make the whole thing a monumental waste of - well just about everything<BR>
involved really: money, man house, equipment.  Then add in the backlash when<BR>
people start getting arrested for taking about their roleplaying session the<BR>
night before? ;)<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell<BR>
kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:18:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
David L. Pulver writes:<BR>
> >My best guess would be some kind of EMP weapon with a very narrow beam.<BR>
> >You nail the sentry with it; he falls (immobilized and out of<BR>
> >communication with his superiors); you advance and terminate him with a<BR>
> >hand weapon. <BR>
> <BR>
> I'd go with a gauss gun. A custom made version should be able to vary the<BR>
> velocity<BR>
> from subsonic to supersonic by just using more or less power.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...it depends what form of subtlety I'm interested in.  If my goal is to<BR>
keep my sniper alive a drone missile has a certain appeal (it's obvious what<BR>
happened, but not the source).  A low power gauss or CPR weapon is probably<BR>
the next best option, people in heavy armor are likely to be part of a sensor<BR>
net which will notice them going down just about regardless of what you do<BR>
(though lobbing a missile into their communication center might help with<BR>
that part).  EMP isn't an option at all, battledress isn't going to be <BR>
vulnerable to any manportartable EMP system in any case, and in any lesser<BR>
armor the sentry can just yell for help.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:12:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>At TL9 I can say "Computer, where is Karen?" If I'm at home, my computer<BR>
>>will recognize my voice and know from context that I mean my wife. It will<BR>
>>then interrogate other networks to find her location, maybe by the location<BR>
>>of her cell phone. It gets the location of the cell she is in and compares<BR>
>>the location to maps it knows of. After a few seconds the computer will<BR>
>>reply "Karen is at the Stanford Town Center mall."<BR>
>><BR>
> I don't know why but if that was the case I would only carry my cell phone<BR>
> as my job required and not for personal use. I completely comfortable with<BR>
> picking up the phone and having a computer dial a number even though I<BR>
> wonder how much of the call is then electronically recorded. But the idea of<BR>
> tracking me is scary. I wonder how many other ppl would think this is an<BR>
> intrusion in their privacy. or worst then that. Only the honest ppl would be<BR>
> able to be tracked and want the tracking. Maybe that just makes me for to<BR>
> dishonest for this tech level. I really think that just because a thing can<BR>
> be done doesn't mean it will be done. for this reason.<BR>
<BR>
Then you'd better quit carrying that cell phone. At any time that it<BR>
can receive a call, it is regularly sending out "here I am" signals to<BR>
the cell network. The networknotes the sites that receive the packet<BR>
and what the signal strength is. If a call is made to you, the site<BR>
with the strongest reading tries to contact you. <BR>
<BR>
This sort of thing is *necessary* or cell phones would be useless,<BR>
because they'd have to have *every site in the network* send out an<BR>
"are you there?" signal to find the "cell" you were in.<BR>
<BR>
As it is, if asked, the cell company can locate you to within a hundred<BR>
yards or so in town, just by comparing the signal strength at the three<BR>
nearest towers, and checking a map. Out in the country, where the sites<BR>
are miles apart, they can't do as well. <BR>
<BR>
And work is being done on improving the accuracy with which they can<BR>
locate you, for the purpose of handling 911 calls. There have been<BR>
incidents where they had someone on the phone, and couldn't *find* them<BR>
to get help to them. "I'm on I-5..." and they can't locate them to<BR>
better than a 20 mile stretch of the freeway...<BR>
<BR>
Having your computer able to do this *is* unlikely, for privac reasons.<BR>
But the police *can* do it if they want to. <BR>
<BR>
ps. I've seen a few TV shows that are pretty laughable when it came to<BR>
trying to track someone using a cell phone. They had them using<BR>
direction finders while he was talking (which will work). But then when<BR>
he "hung up" they had the cops unable to track him (wrong!) and they<BR>
didn't even have the "out" of being able to claim he'd turned the phone<BR>
off, because in desperation, they called him back and the phone rang!<BR>
Which means they could have *easily* tracked him, just have the cell<BR>
company tell their computer to keep hitting him with "where are you?"<BR>
packets. <BR>
<BR>
pps. there's talk of including GPS gear in cell phones to make locating<BR>
them in "emergencies" easier. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:32:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: What kind of covert weapons would be used by 3I special forces?<BR>
> Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature, beam weapons<BR>
> would be detectable (visually, aurally, or by thermal detection gear),<BR>
> and subsonic slug-throwers probably would lack the power to penetrate<BR>
> combat armor/battle dress.<BR>
><BR>
> My best guess would be some kind of EMP weapon with a very narrow beam.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but "EMP" is *by its nature* omnidirectional. It's a sharp<BR>
"pulse" in the local EM field, and such things aren't directional. Not<BR>
unless you make them *really* big. <BR>
<BR>
Best you can hope for is an "EMP grenade". And unfortunately, its use<BR>
will be detectable at hundreds to thousands of times its effective<BR>
range. So if it'll "kill" a suit of battledress at 10 meters, the pulse<BR>
will be clearly detectable at several km. <BR>
<BR>
Worse, not only will it be detectable, it'll be *distinctive*. <BR>
<BR>
Finally, it's not *that* hard to shield against any reasonable level of<BR>
EMP. The reason so much gear *is* vulnerable to EMP is that it *isn't*<BR>
shielded. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:40:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
><BR>
>>Why does the Imperium outlaw slavery? <BR>
><BR>
> I think there are two main reasons:  <BR>
> (1) Slavery was a major problem during the Long Night and other<BR>
> times of disorder, and the part of the Imperium's marketing was<BR>
> that it would protect new members and their citizens/subjects<BR>
> from enslavement.<BR>
> (2) Slavery is bad for business; the megacorporations and other<BR>
> capitalists are operating in capitalist environment that<BR>
> requires wage workers.  (I leave the rest of this analysis to<BR>
> Kyle Schuant.)  <BR>
<BR>
Actually, at low TLs wage workers don't really work well. *Wages* don't<BR>
work, and can in fact cause serious *harm* in subsistencve level<BR>
economies. <BR>
<BR>
For those not familiar with the term "subsistence level" means that the<BR>
economy can spare *no* labor from the production of food & shelter.<BR>
Most early agricultural societies go thru a subsistence phase shortly<BR>
after the first rush of population growth due to having a reliable<BR>
source of food year round.<BR>
<BR>
>>Does this only apply to commerce between worlds, or does it <BR>
>>mean that if the Imperium integrates a world with a Roman style<BR>
>>of Government, they intervene to free all the slaves?<BR>
><BR>
> The Imperium will intervene to free the slaves and transform the<BR>
> local government and culture as necessary; this is one of the<BR>
> very, very few exceptions to the Imperium's principle of local<BR>
> autonomy.  Slaves might very well revolt and take over if they<BR>
> learned that the Imperium was considering their world for<BR>
> membership.  <BR>
><BR>
> The reason for this exception to the local autonomy rule is that<BR>
> a world with a slave culture could become a source or<BR>
> destination for slave trading.  <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, you can just turn the slaves into a "labor caste"<BR>
and the society will go on much like it did before. Sure, you can't<BR>
"buy" or "sell" slaves. You can still require them to go to work for<BR>
someone new, who only has to provide food & shelter.<BR>
<BR>
Consider an "analogous" situation in our societies. The person<BR>
"transferred" to another branch of the company. *Sure* he has a<BR>
choice... <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:49:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: low-level teleportation (was Re: CT psionic<BR>
>>question)<BR>
><BR>
>>The problem is that the adhesive *makes* it part of the body, <BR>
>>and given that Traveller tries to have even teleportation obey <BR>
>>conservation laws, this means that since the patch is<BR>
>>*physically* part of their body, to get rid of it requires <BR>
>>supplying the energy required to break the chemical bonds. That<BR>
>>energy is equivalent to dragging along a *lot* of kilos.  As I <BR>
>>point out in another message, allowing teleportation to break <BR>
>>physical bonds makes it *way* to powerful.<BR>
><BR>
> That's a good analysis, and has changed my mind on this subject.<BR>
>  <BR>
><BR>
> Low-level teleporters in my Traveller Universe now have to watch<BR>
> out for super-adhesive bondage.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the "computer anti-theft" type gizmos *won't* work. They have<BR>
the adhesive pad (though a much smaller one), but the cable "attaches<BR>
by running a loop of cable thru a loop of metal/plastic. No physical<BR>
bond, just a "chain link" effect. So the teleport could just port out<BR>
and the pad would go with them and the loop of cable falls to the<BR>
floor. <BR>
<BR>
Likewise, forget chains. I expect that a standard practice exercise for<BR>
teleports is to grab a link in a chain and port away with just that<BR>
link. For advanced students, they practice porting back so the link<BR>
will re-make the chain (assuming something is supporting it).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 05:13:27 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Looking for list of mapped sectors<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Additionally, if you look around several TML members went and corrected <BR>
>the M0 data against past canon - ISTR that Carlos and Volker did some <BR>
>sectors and I posted some notes on Core a while ago.<BR>
<BR>
Damn, that reminds me again, of how long it has ben since i last updated my <BR>
homepage. Sorry guys!<BR>
However i hope to get around to it as soon as i finish my final legal exams <BR>
(first try of three) by he end of the month. Wish me luck, ill keep you <BR>
posted...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:18:44 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: CT psionic question<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
<BR>
> > If you've ever read "More Than Human" by Theodore Sturgeon,<BR>
> > they got so that they never had to got to the toilet, as the teleport<BR>
> >component would evacuate their bowels for them whenever they were full.<BR>
> >("More  Than Human"  is about a psionic gestalt )<BR>
><BR>
> I hope they actually only did that to stuff in the rectum.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, and the bladder. Not the intestines or kidneys or anything else.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> > Either the patch stays behind or it doesn't. There's no reason<BR>
> > why the glue  should stick to non-existent flesh unless it some sort of<BR>
> > "psionic" glue, and there's no reason why any field-based teleport<BR>
couldn't > > just cut the wire in half when they ported<BR>
><BR>
> The glue and patch *is* part of the teleporter.<BR>
<BR>
Not as far as the 'porter is concerned, which is what counts, IMO.<BR>
Of course, if they could be convince it was, that might work.<BR>
<BR>
> the bonds involved are the same sort that hold the body together.<BR>
<BR>
The glue, is no more "part of" the telporter than the air which she breathes<BR>
or the floor on which she's standing. Chemical bonds occur in both<BR>
instances, and as it is not normal teleportation practice to take all the<BR>
floor you are standing on, or all the air in the room when you teleport,<BR>
this argument doesn't support the telporter having to take the cable or all<BR>
the glue with them.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say they probably would take _some_ of it with them, as they wouldn't<BR>
have perfect control of the field.<BR>
<BR>
> And if they can cut the wire in half, they can remove door locks by<BR>
> taking the handle and lock assembly with them. Or just placing their<BR>
> hand on the door and taking a chunk with them. This screws playability<BR>
> far too much.<BR>
<BR>
Not IMO. It just makes sense for teleporters to basiclaly take only what<BR>
they intend to take (though I'd leave a margin of error based on ability). A<BR>
teleporter who can take more than just his own body, should be able to take<BR>
pieces of things as you describe above. The converse is that with an<BR>
incomplete success, they may only take part of something when they meant to<BR>
take the whole thing.<BR>
<BR>
Want to ride with that teleporter ? Do you trust her to bring all of you<BR>
along ?<BR>
What about getting the 'porter to take that fusion cell down to the basement<BR>
?<BR>
Or that container of Leprosy-Anthrax-Mu ?<BR>
<BR>
And yes, this can be used to hurt people. IIRC, in Alternity such offensive<BR>
uses of teleportation are explicitly addresed.<BR>
<BR>
A psionic assassin who kills people by removing their heart, or brain.<BR>
There obviously many other ways to kill in such a manner.<BR>
<BR>
How about teleporting out of a ship with the fusion core "regulator" or some<BR>
other important component ?<BR>
<BR>
The Psionic Suppressions make much more sense when psionics can do this sort<BR>
of stuff. They are then truly dangerous and a single rogue teleporter of<BR>
sufficient psionic power is the ultimate terrorist. Give him precog or<BR>
similar ability, and he's almost uncatchable as well.<BR>
<BR>
Get one or two of these popping up in your past history, and it explains<BR>
heavy suppression of psionic training, especially if it's known that people<BR>
aren't born with that level of ability, and it needs to be trained.<BR>
<BR>
> And "realism" wise, it sucks also. Basicly, it takes *energy* to break<BR>
> the chemical bonds. The energy involved in cutting that sort of cable<BR>
> is about on a par with what it'd take to pick up 50-100 kilos and carry<BR>
> it off. Porting a chunk out of a door is equivalent to carrying a few<BR>
> *tonnes*.<BR>
<BR>
"Realism" wise teleporting sucks full stop.<BR>
<BR>
The amount of "energy" involved in teleporting at all would be a hell of a<BR>
lot more than that required just to break chemical bonds. Teleporting<BR>
requires either converting to some form of energy the entire body,<BR>
transmitting it to some other location and reassembling it correctly at the<BR>
other end in some way. If you can do that to something as complex as a body,<BR>
doing it to a door or chunk of cable is simple.<BR>
<BR>
Another "possible" form of teleportation involves opening some form of<BR>
wormhole between the two locations you are travelling between and walking<BR>
through.<BR>
This would mean that telporting parts of objects would be more difficult as<BR>
it would involve moving them through the wormhole as well or moving the<BR>
wormhole over them.<BR>
<BR>
But in your example what do you think would happen if you opened such a<BR>
wormhole, which requires energy to maintain, and then walked through,<BR>
letting the wormhole collapse behind you ?<BR>
<BR>
I'd suggest the cable would be severed, because the energy in it's bonds is<BR>
less than that required to maintain the wormmhole once the 'porter stops<BR>
maintaining it.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1986<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1987</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, March 1 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1987<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Computing quess<BR>
RE: another example<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1986<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1986<BR>
Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
Corridor and Provence (Re: Traveller Sector Information)<BR>
Re: We are komink....<BR>
ATT"N  - TORONTO AREA - gamers<BR>
DGP auction rages close to a conclusion...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation <BR>
re:  Fit like they're painted on <BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
Re: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
Space ecosystems and critters<BR>
Re: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
Re: minutes of Fame<BR>
Re: another example<BR>
The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:30:08 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
> From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
> After reading the bit about computing technology in CRT1, I came up with<BR>
> the following rough guess as to what the next few TLs will bring.<BR>
<snip><BR>
> So today my wife can pick up the phone and say "Computer, call<BR>
> Luther," and my phone rings.<BR>
> At TL9 I can say "Computer, where is Karen?" If I'm at home,<BR>
> my computer will recognize my voice and know from context that<BR>
> I mean my wife. It will then interrogate other networks to<BR>
> find her location, maybe by the location of her cell phone.<BR>
> It gets the location of the cell she is in and compares<BR>
> the location to maps it knows of. After a few seconds the<BR>
> computer will reply "Karen is at the Stanford Town Center mall."<BR>
<BR>
I already posted something like this a couple of months back.<BR>
<BR>
That is all technically possible _now_. What is required is the social or<BR>
commercial desire to implement it, which is not a function of tech level.<BR>
<BR>
In fact the biggest hurdle in getting something like that to work would be<BR>
getting the agreements between cell providers to transmit the information<BR>
between networks,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Chauncey Smith wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> I don't know why but if that was the case I would only carry my cell phone<BR>
> as my job required and not for personal use. I completely comfortable with<BR>
> picking up the phone and having a computer dial a number even though I<BR>
> wonder how much of the call is then electronically recorded. But<BR>
> the idea of tracking me is scary.<BR>
<BR>
It is about to become (if it isn't already) a legal requirmemt in the US for<BR>
such providers to be able to track people to within at least 135m<BR>
<BR>
> I wonder how many other ppl would think this is an<BR>
> intrusion in their privacy. or worst then that.<BR>
<BR>
Why ?<BR>
What are you doing that makes it neccesaary for your location to be hidden ?<BR>
<BR>
> Only the honest ppl would be<BR>
> able to be tracked and want the tracking.<BR>
<BR>
And that's a problem ? Why should we cater for dishonest people ?<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Actually, it's not a big deal really, unless you implant the cell phone in<BR>
your head, you can always leave it behind if you don't want to be tracked.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the main reason for mandating the tracking as above is so that when<BR>
people dial 111 on a cellphone, emergency services can find out where they<BR>
are in a hurry, even if they lose the connection.<BR>
<BR>
The other reason is to find lost or stolen cellphones.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:25:26 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: another example<BR>
<BR>
>I doubt you can design a system that is perfectly "safe", in terms of<BR>
>>preventing abuses of power or preventing the wrong people from getting<BR>
into<BR>
>>power. So, as no system can prevent that, I'd go for the one that's better<BR>
>>for the country, and committees have always been bad for anything they've<BR>
>>been involved in, which is basically what you get in a democracy.<BR>
><BR>
>The government of the United States was not designed to be the most<BR>
>efficient or effective government.  It was designed to prevent tyranny.<BR>
>To that end, it is deliberately inefficient and makes it difficult for<BR>
>any one person to do too much.  While I agree that a competent,<BR>
>benevolent dictator or autocrat is by far the best form of government,<BR>
>I don't trust anyone else but me to pick that person.  In fact, I don't<BR>
>really trust me to pick that person so I'd end up picking myself and I'm<BR>
>afraid I'm probably not the best candidate.  So I accept the US<BR>
>democracy as a crappy government, but the least bad one around.<BR>
<BR>
Sir Winston Churchill once said that democracy is the worst kind of<BR>
government in existence, except of course, for all of the other ones that<BR>
have ever been tried.<BR>
<BR>
I also recall how a congressman explained that when people from back home<BR>
came to Washington to try to get something done that they complained to him<BR>
that it seemed as if no one was in charge. He would then explain to them<BR>
that that was how the founding fathers had intended it.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: On a macro-scale the Imperium is autocratic. The Emperor is in<BR>
charge. He designates Nobles to rule under him. However according to canon,<BR>
in most cases the Imperial Nobles do not directly rule worlds. (Regina is an<BR>
exception, not the norm.) Among the 11,000 worlds I would expect most to<BR>
have a local government, be it autocratic or democratic, with the Imperial<BR>
Noble more like an ambassador, than a ruler. Like an ambassador I would<BR>
expect them to represent the Megacorps and Imperial bureaucracies to the<BR>
local governments. But they would also play the opposing roles as<BR>
representatives of the local government to the Imperial bureaucracies. They<BR>
would be responsible for enforcing Imperial Laws, and calling in sufficient<BR>
force to ensure compliance. But they would not meddle in local matters,<BR>
contend for local office, or concern themselves with enforcement of local<BR>
laws. All in all, not a terribly efficient method of government either. But<BR>
an interesting place to visit.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:33:09 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, but "EMP" is *by its nature* omnidirectional. It's a sharp<BR>
> "pulse" in the local EM field, and such things aren't directional. Not<BR>
> unless you make them *really* big.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, people have developed HERF weapons, which look an awful<BR>
lot like EMP to me, but are called "HERF" instead. The distinction is lost<BR>
on me. Maybe the HERF weapons only operate over a particular frequency range<BR>
while EMP is more broadband.  My understanding is that contemporary HERF<BR>
weapons are quite large and require a large van for power. In any event, the<BR>
effect on electronic systems is the same. Zap.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:40:02 +1000<BR>
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1986<BR>
<BR>
Leonard wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
Sorry, but "EMP" is *by its nature* omnidirectional. It's a sharp<BR>
"pulse" in the local EM field, and such things aren't directional. Not<BR>
unless you make them *really* big.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
So, why not focus the emp? Hell, if JAMES BOND scriptwriters can think of it,<BR>
then sureley it can be done in a TL15 society.<BR>
<BR>
The way I would sell it is to focus the EMP through a gravaty lense.<BR>
<BR>
>>><BR>
Finally, it's not *that* hard to shield against any reasonable level of<BR>
EMP. The reason so much gear *is* vulnerable to EMP is that it *isn't*<BR>
shielded.<BR>
<<<<BR>
<BR>
EMP Shielding imply that an item is going to be exposed to EMP , therefore a<BR>
Nuke. And since nukes are explicitly banned by the Imperium, why would it allow<BR>
people to protect themselves from a weapon they reserve for themselves? I would<BR>
treat EMP shielding the same way as bullet proof armour in Australia.<BR>
<BR>
It also gives the imperium a great tactical advantage, since they CAN use Nukes.<BR>
So EMP weapons would be banned as part of the Rules of War, but Imperial Marines<BR>
/ Army can and do use them.<BR>
<BR>
Darryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:43:39 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I already posted something like this a couple of months back.<BR>
><BR>
> That is all technically possible _now_. What is required is the social or<BR>
> commercial desire to implement it, which is not a function of tech level.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I was mainly thinking when I was sorting stuff by TL. In<BR>
general, I was figuring that technology which was possible would be in<BR>
widespread use about 2 TLs later. For example, we can make quantum well<BR>
devices today, but you won't see them in widespread use (assuming that we<BR>
learn how to mass-produce them) for quite a while.<BR>
<BR>
Even the cell phone example is of limited use today. Even if PacBell can do<BR>
it, there will be issues with crossing networks, country boundaries, German<BR>
privacy laws, etc. These details will take 2 TLs to work out before the<BR>
technology becomes universal. Maybe 1 TL is enough?<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller terms, it's probably more important to know what technology is<BR>
widely available, unless you like to run scenarios involving intellegence<BR>
agents funded by big governments, like I do.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:46:05 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
>>cellphone as my job required and not for personal use. I<BR>
>>completely comfortable with picking up the phone and having a<BR>
>>computer dial a number even though I wonder how much of the<BR>
>>call is then electronically recorded. But the idea of<BR>
>>tracking me is scary. I wonder how many other ppl would think<BR>
>>this is an intrusion in their privacy. or worst then that. Only<BR>
><BR>
>>the honest ppl would be able to be tracked and want the<BR>
><BR>
>I'm with Chauncey on this -- and Luther, do you really want to<BR>
>hear the computer say, "Karen is at her ex-boyfriend's<BR>
>apartment"?<BR>
><BR>
>- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Gee I guess I'd want to know. On the other hand if Karen knew that her<BR>
location could be traced through her cell phone don't you think she'd leave<BR>
it somewhere else?  I expect that really dishonest people will have a way to<BR>
spoof these things so that they cannot be traced. Don't forget that people<BR>
have anti-theft devices installed in their cars that tell where the vehicle<BR>
is. Isn't this an opening for abuse? Yet the devices are a hot seller among<BR>
the high priced car crowd.<BR>
<BR>
As for the privacy issue, I hope that encryption technology will move apace<BR>
so that if I want my wife to be able to find me she will be able to, but<BR>
Johnny salesman and Bobby Federal Snoop won't.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:54:59 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1986<BR>
<BR>
dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
> EMP Shielding imply that an item is going to be exposed to EMP , therefore<BR>
> a Nuke. And since nukes are explicitly banned by the Imperium, why would<BR>
> it allow people to protect themselves from a weapon they reserve for<BR>
> themselves? I would treat EMP shielding the same way as bullet proof armour<BR>
> in Australia. <BR>
<BR>
EMP shielding implies that an item is going to be exposed to EMP, this is true.<BR>
This does not imply a nuclear weapon, there are a wide variety of systems<BR>
on a high-tech battlefield which could produce strong enough electromagnetic<BR>
fields to interfere with electronics (starting with your own weaponry.  The<BR>
magnetic bottle in a fusion gun would probably short out unshielded<BR>
electronics, as would the capacitors for a high energy gauss weapon).  As<BR>
such, hardened electronics are almost mandatory.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, a suit of sealed armor can be made EMP shielded _trivially_,<BR>
almost accidentally.  A solid layer of metal acts as a faraday cage, and as<BR>
long as your electronics are isolated from the armor they'll be immune to<BR>
EMP short of a fairly substantial lightning bolt.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:55:25 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Mar 00, at 14:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>From: "Scout Harris" <scout.harry@eudoramail.com><BR>
> ><BR>
> >>Why does the Imperium outlaw slavery? <BR>
> ><BR>
> > I think there are two main reasons:  <BR>
> > (1) Slavery was a major problem during the Long Night and other<BR>
> > times of disorder, and the part of the Imperium's marketing was<BR>
> > that it would protect new members and their citizens/subjects<BR>
> > from enslavement.<BR>
> > (2) Slavery is bad for business; the megacorporations and other<BR>
> > capitalists are operating in capitalist environment that<BR>
> > requires wage workers.  (I leave the rest of this analysis to<BR>
> > Kyle Schuant.)  <BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, at low TLs wage workers don't really work well. *Wages* don't<BR>
> work, and can in fact cause serious *harm* in subsistencve level<BR>
> economies. <BR>
<BR>
It doesn't take wages - all it needs is money. Have a look at the rise <BR>
of slavery in early Greece after the invention of money.<BR>
<BR>
Before money came along if you were a bit short of grain, etc late in <BR>
winter you'd go to your wealthier neighbour who had a little surplus <BR>
and borrow a sack of wheat. Later on, at harvest time you gave him his <BR>
sack of wheat back.<BR>
<BR>
With money rather than borrowing wheat, you borrow money to buy wheat. <BR>
However when the time comes to pay your neighbour back there's plenty <BR>
of wheat around, because it's harvest time, so you have to sell three <BR>
or four sacks of your wheat to pay him back. How many bad years before <BR>
you're selling your family into servitude to pay your debt?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 15:22:03 -0800<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Corridor and Provence (Re: Traveller Sector Information)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:27 PM 2/29/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@amdocs.com><BR>
><BR>
>Now on the web at http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html (Don's<BR>
>Traveller Site):<BR>
><BR>
>The current "Published Traveller Sector Information" list...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Very cool.  Unfortunately, Corridor isn't listed.<BR>
<BR>
Only place I have found info for Corridor is the map in the Atlas of the <BR>
Imperium, sector map with UWPs in First Survey, and an overhead starchart <BR>
(with fifty different sectors) in Vilani & Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
Immediately coreward of Corridor is Provence.  I have found even less <BR>
information for it.  The above web page lists "Sector map in Vilani and <BR>
Vargr" for it.  Unfortunately, the only detailed map in V&V is for <BR>
Vland.  The "overhead starchart" in V&V is nice, but I am curious if there <BR>
is details written up for that sector in a book I don't own. . .<BR>
<BR>
Since I am running a GURPS Trav game that centers on Khukish/Corridor <BR>
(subsector B), any details about those sectors is useful for me.<BR>
<BR>
Is there any other sources of information for Corridor or Provence?<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
       "I choose you, Dullinor!" - PokeTrav Master<BR>
  IMTU tm++@ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:56:36 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: We are komink....<BR>
<BR>
At 18:10 -0500 1/3/00, "Douglas E. Berry", Penguin Assimilated <BR>
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At 06:13 PM 3/1/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
> >"The Penguins are coming, coming for you."<BR>
><BR>
><Invasion of the Body Snatchers><BR>
>"They'll get you, please listen to me!" Doug grabs onto a passing truck,<BR>
>stsres horrified at the legion of penguins calmly staring back. "It's to<BR>
>late, the're here! And you're next!!"<BR>
<BR>
"But first, please can you give a short interview to this nice man <BR>
from the press?"<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 00:24:37 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: ATT"N  - TORONTO AREA - gamers<BR>
<BR>
Rob Prior asked me to survey, if there is anyone in the Toronto, Canada area <BR>
interested in gaming with us in around the March Break?  Kindly, reply to <BR>
Boris Cibic at kafka47@hotmail.com with your name and email address.<BR>
   Plus, does anyone know the website for SF convention called Orion, I <BR>
think also to be held here in Toronto.  I understand there will be a gaming <BR>
event.  Thanks to all.<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 00:38:03 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: DGP auction rages close to a conclusion...<BR>
<BR>
Those who have missed earlier postings...I am trying to get rid of some old <BR>
Traveller Digests in Mint condition and also 101 Robots.  As well as what <BR>
GDW produced for MT line.  AUCTION CLOSES FRIDAY MARCH 3RD 2000 11:59:59 <BR>
EST.  Those interest send your name and email plus, bid to:  <BR>
rainbow7@netcom.ca<BR>
<BR>
Items on offer:<BR>
<BR>
Traveller Digest #6<BR>
Traveller Digest #20<BR>
Traveller Digest #21<BR>
101 Robots<BR>
Megatraveller Journal #3 [Near Mint -crease running down centre of product]<BR>
MT Players' Manual [Almost Mint]<BR>
MT Referee's Manual [AM]<BR>
MT Referee's Companion [AM]<BR>
MT Imperial Encyclopedia [AM]<BR>
MT Fighting Ships [AM]<BR>
MT COAC [AM]<BR>
MT Rebellion Sourcebook<BR>
MT ARrival Vengenge<BR>
Challenge #71 [good shape]<BR>
Special Bonus<BR>
TNE Main Rulebook [MINT]<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 16:37:50 -0800<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
>On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:54:45 -0800 (PST), Mark Cook <markc@peak.org> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>ObTrav: What kind of covert weapons would be used by 3I special forces?<BR>
>Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature,<BR>
<BR>
Not to mention having a nice big magnetic-anomaly signature when firing <BR>
(though maybe only if you go full-auto).<BR>
<BR>
If you really want to be quiet, there's always the good old air-gun or <BR>
blow-gun.  Sure, it's no good against combat armor and up, but I don't <BR>
think there IS a subtle way to take out someone in BD.  (Maybe calling in <BR>
his precise coords and having a dinky meson site over the horizon <BR>
flash-cook him inside his can... only works for sentries, though.)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair    "You know, Brink, you've been acting funny ever since<BR>
kellys@efn.org     you came back from the dead.  (I can't believe I just<BR>
                    said that.)"    -- Commander Boston Low, THE DIG<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:58:47 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
> >The problem is that the adhesive *makes* it part of the body,<BR>
><BR>
>I don't think that most adhesives actually make a chemical bond<BR>
>with the stuff they are sticking together. There are some <BR>
>exceptions, of course. For example, I think that rubber cement <BR>
>actually forms chemical bonds. My understanding of most of <BR>
>these products is that they just flow into the small <BR>
>iregularities on a surface and harden, but don't actually form <BR>
>chemical bonds. If this is the case, then you should easily be <BR>
>able to teleport away. If you are actually forming a chemical <BR>
>bond with the human flesh, it's probably too messy to think <BR>
>about (but probably possible). <BR>
<BR>
I agree. If the adhesive is just flowing into irregularities,<BR>
then it's still "not-body" to the teleporter and easily left<BR>
behind.  I'm not a chemist (nor do I play one on tv, but my<BR>
uncle is kind of an ueber-geek plastics specialist), but it<BR>
seems to me that it should be possible to make an adhesive that<BR>
would bond to the materials in human skin.<BR>
<BR>
So now our scout paints herself in appropriate camouflage and<BR>
teleports to the target area.  Then she wants to find some<BR>
clothing to wear just in case the opfor are using sticky darts<BR>
with chains (tm).  Now that I think about it, the adhesive in<BR>
the sticky darts should contain an anaesthetic to facilitate<BR>
capture.<BR>
<BR>
>Even if an adhesive is chemically bonded to a teleporter, they <BR>
>should still be able to teleport away. Traveller lets you do <BR>
>odd things with teleportation, but suffer the possible <BR>
>consequences. <BR>
<BR>
Yep, if it's bonded with the teleport's skin, she's looking at a<BR>
skin graft at her destination. So the sticky darts have to be<BR>
very large and numerous.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:00:12 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Fit like they're painted on <BR>
<BR>
>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
>Subject: Fit like they're painted on (was Re: CT psionic <BR>
>question)<BR>
>On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:06:14 -0500 (EST), Glenn Goffin<BR>
><gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
>>I recently saw a Victoria's Secret special in which bathing<BR>
>>suit designer just painted the suits onto the models.<BR>
><BR>
>This was also true of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue of <BR>
>1999.<BR>
<BR>
Great minds think alike.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:03:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Crossbow, definitely.  It just looks too cool.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:16:17 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
[Leonard's excellent commentary deleted]<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, you can just turn the slaves into a "labor <BR>
>caste" and the society will go on much like it did before. <BR>
>Sure, you can't "buy" or "sell" slaves. You can still require <BR>
>them to go to work for someone new, who only has to provide <BR>
>food & shelter.<BR>
><BR>
>Consider an "analogous" situation in our societies. The person<BR>
>"transferred" to another branch of the company. *Sure* he has <BR>
>a choice... <BR>
<BR>
Agreed.  Outlawing slavery won't eliminate bondage.  I would<BR>
expect the Imperium to make exceptions to its "no local slavery"<BR>
policy for subsistence economies or other situations in which it<BR>
was not a problem.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:52:09 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
<BR>
I have re-read _The Mote in God's Eye_, and once again <BR>
wonder if there is a hidden meaning to the book, as if<BR>
it were trying to be a Classic (failing, of course, but<BR>
there's something back there that nags at my mind).<BR>
<BR>
I find it to have great background info that is in a<BR>
Traveller context, including how the various classes<BR>
intermix.<BR>
<BR>
In another vein, I located a very few copies of the<BR>
Dumarest books, and loved them.  WHERE can I find more???<BR>
Anyone wanna sell theirs??<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 20:03:19 -0600<BR>
From: Rob Eaglestone <eaglestone@home.net><BR>
Subject: Space ecosystems and critters<BR>
<BR>
From what Ian Ferguson wrote, it seems like asteroid<BR>
dwellers would have dead space that's used to store<BR>
oxygen / whatever they breathe.<BR>
<BR>
I had an additional thought: perhaps critters can<BR>
'exhale' as an additional means of propulstion.  In<BR>
addition, can exhaling be used to recapture a bit<BR>
of energy or heat?<BR>
<BR>
Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:49:36 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Mar 00, at 19:52, Rob Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In another vein, I located a very few copies of the<BR>
> Dumarest books, and loved them.  WHERE can I find more???<BR>
> Anyone wanna sell theirs??<BR>
<BR>
In answer to the first question: I don't know. To the second: Nope.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:53:18 -0800<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: minutes of Fame<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
> >The kind people over at KFOG radio gave our beloved PenguinBoy <BR>
> >another Minute of Fame this morning by giving him the<BR>
> >opportunity to tell another ofhis "No S**t there I was, <BR>
> >driving..." stories on the air. Seems they were talking about <BR>
> >local efforts to ban cellular phone use while driving, and Doug<BR>
> >had a germane example...<BR>
> <BR>
> When was that?  I was had KFOG on this morning while driving to<BR>
> work, but didn't hear it.  Maybe it was while I was checking my<BR>
> voice mail messages.<BR>
<BR>
And Glenn scores a solid 2.0 from me; the artist in the next office <BR>
asked me if I was all right when I busted out laughing.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:34:18 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: another example<BR>
<BR>
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: another example<BR>
...<BR>
>>   But then, representative democracy can be called an oxymoron, and the<BR>
>> injustice of a political system that doesn't give most of its large <BR>
>> mammalian inhabitants the vote is obvious.<BR>
><BR>
>Representative democracy is not obviously an oxymoron, its just obviously<BR>
>different from direct democracy.  And as far as it goes, I see little need<BR>
>to give votes to cattle, horses, and other animals.<BR>
<BR>
  And if the K'kree land, you sir, are for the high-jump :><BR>
<BR>
  Although they'd likely heartily approve of people popping away at<BR>
the sort of small pesky critters that leave burrow-holes in otherwise<BR>
perfectly good pasturelands...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:30:13 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
<BR>
(Warning: Does not conform to the Miller Morality Protocols)<BR>
<BR>
UBP: Universal Bar Profile<BR>
by Glenn Grant<BR>
<BR>
As we all know, "Every adventure begins and ends at the starport."  Which<BR>
is to say, "in the starport bar."  For all its importance to almost every<BR>
Traveller game, the booze-hall has rarely received the attention it<BR>
deserves.  You've obsessively detailed every planet and planetoid in YTU,<BR>
so why are the drinking-holes always basically the same, no matter where<BR>
the PCs go?<BR>
<BR>
Now every tavern can be unique, with its own alphanumeric descriptor: the<BR>
Universal Bar Profile!  With this "bar code" [heh], you can ensure that<BR>
every bar is different, described with an easy-to-decipher six-digit<BR>
string.  Not unlike the UWP, the UBP starts with a letter, followed by five<BR>
hexadecimal digits, thus...<BR>
<BR>
UBP: A12345<BR>
                                       Roll:<BR>
 A  Type of Establishment (alphabetic) 2D<BR>
 1  Size of Establishment   (0-C)      2D + DMs<BR>
 2  Food and Drink Rating   (0-F)      2D + Bar Size - 7 + DMs<BR>
 3  Music/Entertainment     (0-F)      2D + Bar Size - 7 + DMs<BR>
 4  Physical Risk           (0-F)      2D + DMs<BR>
 5  Sex Availability        (0-F)      2D + DMs<BR>
<BR>
The UBP is generated by a method similar to UWP generation.  First, to<BR>
determine the Type of Establishment, roll 2D and apply DMs as listed.  The<BR>
Bar Types described on the table (below) are all standard Solomani<BR>
archetypes, but sometimes they should be considered *equivalents* of a<BR>
local non-Solomani type of establishment.  This applies to all the tables:<BR>
the descriptions should be modified by the Referee to make them consistent<BR>
with local conditions, cultural norms, sophont species, government type,<BR>
etc.  (You may also note that the author is often less than 100% serious...)<BR>
<BR>
The rest of the UBP digits are determined by rolling 2D and applying the<BR>
DMs listed below each table.  "Starport" refers to the class of local<BR>
starport, assuming it is located in one; if not, apply an appropriate DM:<BR>
minus for small towns and plus for large cities. "Type" refers to Bar Type<BR>
(not Starport Type); "Size" refers to Size of Establishment (not World<BR>
Size).  "Law" refers to UWP Law Level.  Note that [Bar Size - 7] is added<BR>
to the rolls for Food/Drink Rating and Music/Entertainment.<BR>
<BR>
The referee should use the UBP ratings as target numbers when rolling for<BR>
certain events or encounters.  For instance, for each evening spent in the<BR>
bar, roll 2D: on a roll of the Physical Risk rating or less, someone picks<BR>
a fight with the PCs.  Similarly, roll 2D for each PC: on a roll of the Sex<BR>
Availability rating or less, someone puts moves on the PC.  If the PCs are<BR>
actively looking for partners, their chances are the same, though the<BR>
referee should apply DMs according to their Social Standing, Carousing<BR>
skill, and state of inebriation.  "Sex Availability" applies to both<BR>
commercial sex workers and non-commercial liaisons; the referee should<BR>
determines the specific nature of each encounter.<BR>
<BR>
Note that the UBP lacks a "Quality of Service" digit (defining the speed,<BR>
attentiveness and demeanour of the service personnel and/or robots),<BR>
because this is closely coupled with Type of Establishment.  Type "A"<BR>
nightclubs invariably have the best, fastest, most polite service, Type "X"<BR>
usually have the worst, slowest, rudest staff.  There will be some<BR>
variation, but a Quality of Service digit is largely redundant.  However,<BR>
this or other digits can always be added by the referee.<BR>
<BR>
Further letter codes might be added to each table as needed.  For instance,<BR>
Food/Drink codes "G", "H", and beyond might be assigned to establishments<BR>
that specialize in intoxicants other than alcohol, or stimulants such as<BR>
coffee, or other drugs and drug-equivalents.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Type of Establishment (2D)<BR>
<BR>
Result Type  Description<BR>
<BR>
2-3    A     High-class private nightclub, lounge, disco, or casino.<BR>
             Antiseptically clean. Well-filtered air.<BR>
             High prices. Stringent dress code. Substantial<BR>
             membership fee, and big tips expected.<BR>
4-5    B     Up-market nightclub, lounge, or bar. Very clean.<BR>
             Some smoke, lots of fog machines. Moderate-high prices.<BR>
             Basic dress code. Membership fee, or moderate nightly<BR>
             cover charge.<BR>
6-7    C     Average quality bar, pub, or beerhall. Moderate prices.<BR>
             Clean enough. Smoky. No dress code.<BR>
             Nightly cover charge.<BR>
8-9    D     Down-market joint, or underground subculture hangout.<BR>
             Was clean once. Very smoky. Low-moderate prices.<BR>
             Decent clothes look out of place here.<BR>
             Cover charge for live entertainment only.<BR>
10-11  E     Low-class hole-in-the-wall. Low but variable prices.<BR>
             Has never been clean. Vile, unbreathable air.<BR>
             Clothing optional. No cover charge.<BR>
12+    X     Lowest quality dive. A wretched hive of Scouts and Vargr.<BR>
             Major health hazard. Dense, tainted atmosphere.<BR>
             Wildly unpredictable prices.<BR>
<BR>
  DMs: +1 if Starport D, +2 if Starport E<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Size of Establishment     (2D)<BR>
<BR>
Result Size  Description<BR>
<BR>
0     0     A kiosk or outdoor serving window with no place to sit.<BR>
1     1     A closet with a serving window and maybe room for a few<BR>
            barstools.<BR>
2     2     A short corridor, barely wide enough for a small bar and<BR>
            up to 10 barstools.<BR>
3     3     A cramped shoebox room with a low ceiling; seats up to 15<BR>
            typical humans.<BR>
4     4     A cosy joint; seats up to 30 humans uncomfortably,<BR>
            or 3 starving Virushi.<BR>
5     5     A small, well-lighted place; seats up to 40 humans.<BR>
6     6     Average size, usually one bar area with a dance floor;<BR>
            seats up to 80 humans.<BR>
7     7     Average size, one large bar and dance floor, or a maze of<BR>
            smaller rooms; seats up to 160 typical sophonts.<BR>
8     8     Big place, multiple rooms, usually on different levels;<BR>
            seats about 240 sophonts.<BR>
9     9     A large place; several large bar areas, dance floors,<BR>
            quiet rooms; capacity 640.<BR>
10    A     A huge place; seats more than a thousand; an impressive<BR>
            dance hall with various large bar areas, banquet halls,<BR>
            party rooms, etc.<BR>
11    B     Gigantic. A huge ballroom and/or several dance floors,<BR>
            surrounded by balconies, bars, terraces, lounges,<BR>
            private rooms; seats up to 2000.<BR>
12+   C     Vast. Multiple ballrooms and endless dance floors on a<BR>
            dozen levels, countless bar zones, balconies, outdoor<BR>
            terraces, gardens, private lounges, swimming pools with<BR>
            waterfalls, etc, etc. Capacity of several thousand at<BR>
            least.<BR>
<BR>
  DMs: +2 if Bar Type A, +1 if Type B, -1 if Type D,<BR>
       -2 if Type E or X<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Food and Drink Rating     (2D + Bar Size - 7)<BR>
<BR>
Result Rating  Description<BR>
0     0     No drinks due to Prohibition laws; inedible local "food"<BR>
            worthy of Amber Zoning.<BR>
1     1     Synthahol and processed sim-food.<BR>
2     2     Watered-down Scout Brew and stale pretzeloids.<BR>
3     3     Vilani beer and snack food.<BR>
4     4     Sylean beer. Vegetarian meals.<BR>
5     5     Solomani beer. Fast food.<BR>
6     6     Variety of beers & mixed drinks; typical Solomani bar<BR>
            food.<BR>
7     7     Wide variety of beers; typical Solomani restaurant food.<BR>
8     8     Wide variety of beers & mixed drinks; above average<BR>
            restaurant food.<BR>
9     9     K'kree-B-Q!<BR>
10    A     Good selection of imports from across the subsector.<BR>
            Good food.<BR>
11    B     Good selection of imports from beyond the subsector.<BR>
            Very Good food.<BR>
12    C     Imported wines and liqueurs from across the sector.<BR>
            Excellent food.<BR>
13    D     Imported wines and liqueurs from Core. Exceptional cuisine<BR>
            by famous chefs.<BR>
14    E     Imported wines and liqueurs from the Rim. Award-winning<BR>
            cuisine, top-flight chefs.<BR>
15    F     Five stars in all the guides. Haute cuisine by "Iron Chef<BR>
            Sylea".<BR>
<BR>
  DMs: -3 if Bar Type X, -2 if Type E, -1 if Type D.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Music/Entertainment       (2D + Bar Size - 7)<BR>
<BR>
Result Rating Description<BR>
0-    0     None.<BR>
1     1     Hiver stand-up comedy.<BR>
2     2     Muzak. (Low TL: customers who sing local folk songs.)<BR>
3     3     Arm-wrestling.<BR>
4     4     Penguin throwing.<BR>
5     5     Recorded popular music. (Low TL: local folk dancers.)<BR>
6     6     Video or holo screen. Maybe one game (pool table, darts,<BR>
            etc.), usually damaged.<BR>
7     7     Multiple screens. Two or three games (pool, darts,<BR>
            electronic games, etc.).<BR>
8     8     Games room (pool, darts, electronic games, etc.),<BR>
            wet T-shirt contests.<BR>
9     9     Occasional live music (mostly solo acts) or burlesque<BR>
            show.<BR>
10    A     Live music or floor show, most nights.<BR>
11    B     Good live music, comedy, or floor show, every night.<BR>
12    C     Very good live music, comedy, or floor show, every night.<BR>
13    D     Excellent big-name musicians, comedians, or cabaret show,<BR>
            every night.<BR>
14    E     Exceptional famous musicians, comedians, or cabaret show,<BR>
            every night.<BR>
15+   F     Top-flight performers, comedians, dance revues, dinner<BR>
            theatre, etc.<BR>
<BR>
  DMs: -3 if Bar Type X, -2 if Type E, -1 if Type D.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Physical Risk  (2D)<BR>
<BR>
Result Rating  Description<BR>
0-    0     A Bwap hang-out. No chance of violence, even if you go<BR>
            looking for it.<BR>
1     1     Ithklur bouncers. Fights are extremely rare.<BR>
2     2     Strangely tall customers all seem to vanish at the first<BR>
            *thought* of violence...<BR>
3     3     Hiver owners. Most patrons mysteriously manipulated<BR>
            into placidity.<BR>
4     4     Ex-Marine bouncers keep things under control. Mostly.<BR>
5     5     Usually a quiet place, until someone mentions the<BR>
            Pacification Campaigns...<BR>
6     6     A Sword Worlder joint. Sometimes they get along, sometimes<BR>
            they don't.<BR>
7     7     Violence usually waiting, for those who go looking.<BR>
8     8     Violence not unusual, especially when Naval ships are in<BR>
            port.<BR>
9     9     Violence common, whether you're looking for it or not.<BR>
10    A     Lots of easily-offended Aslan.<BR>
11    B     Violence inevitable. You won't have to wait long.<BR>
12    C     "The first rule of Fight Club is: You don't talk about<BR>
            Fight Club..."<BR>
13    D     The bouncers wear battle-dress. They have to.<BR>
14    E     Do you have life insurance?<BR>
15+   F     After-work hang-out of the Famille Spofulam High Energy<BR>
            Solutions Division.<BR>
<BR>
  DMs: +2 if Bar Type E or X, +1 if Type D, -1 if Type B, -2 if Type A<BR>
       +2 if Bar Size 3-, +1 if Size 4, -1 if Size A, -2 if Size B+<BR>
       +2 if UWP Law Level 1-; +1 if Law 2 or 3; -1 if Law 8 or 9,<BR>
       -2 if Law A; -3 if Law B+.<BR>
<BR>
Sex Availability  (2D)<BR>
<BR>
Result Rating  Description<BR>
<BR>
0-    0     Customers are all sentient plants.<BR>
1     1     Customers are all on sex suppressants (possibly in the<BR>
            food and drink).<BR>
2     2     All but a few customers are avowed celibates.<BR>
3     3     Most customers are not interested in the player's species.<BR>
4     4     Most customers are Female Aslan in Comfortable Shoes...<BR>
5     5     Partners difficult to find, usually expensive, and often<BR>
            not what they seem...<BR>
6     6     Caters to specialized tastes. Partners can be found, with<BR>
            persistence.<BR>
7     7     Partners can be found, within a narrow range of<BR>
            preferences.<BR>
8     8     Partners can be found, within a certain range of<BR>
            preferences.<BR>
9     9     A meat market.<BR>
10    A     A rather popular meat market.<BR>
11    B     A very popular meat market.<BR>
12    C     Swingers club. Caters to a wide variety of tastes.<BR>
            May have private assignation rooms on-site (or nearby).<BR>
13    D     Any kind of sex easily found here, whether you're looking<BR>
            for it or not.<BR>
14    E     Private rooms? Who needs private rooms?<BR>
15+   F     Non-stop "anything goes" orgies that would appal Caligula.<BR>
<BR>
  DMs: +2 if Bar Type E or X, +1 if Type D, -1 if Type B, -2 if Type A<BR>
       +2 if Bar Size B+, +1 if Size A, -1 if Size 4, -2 if Size 3-<BR>
       -2 if Drinks/Food Rating 1-<BR>
       UWP Law Level and local cultural norms should also be taken<BR>
       into consideration.<BR>
<BR>
   ------------------------Glenn Grant------------------------<BR>
                         <neo@total.net><BR>
      "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work.<BR>
        I want to achieve it by not dying." -- Woody Allen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1987<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1988</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 2 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1988<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1987<BR>
Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Traveller sector maps<BR>
Re: another example<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: The Universal Bar Profile<BR>
Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: InterstellarDemocracies IYTU)<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
Re: another example<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
RE: Computing quess<BR>
SEC: NUDE, NUDE, NUDE<BR>
DetCord<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:49:59 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of Rob Eaglestone<BR>
> I have re-read _The Mote in God's Eye_, and once again<BR>
> wonder if there is a hidden meaning to the book, as if<BR>
> it were trying to be a Classic (failing, of course, but<BR>
> there's something back there that nags at my mind).<BR>
<BR>
Whadda ya mean it's not a classic ?<BR>
Almost all of the Niven & Pournelle books are classics !<BR>
<BR>
The hidden meaning is that it's easier to move a planet than cut a great<BR>
line.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
> I find it to have great background info that is in a<BR>
> Traveller context, including how the various classes<BR>
> intermix.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, in fact the pre-gravitic spaceships are great, and what we used in one<BR>
of our Traveller-like games where we outlawed gravitics to make things more<BR>
interesting<BR>
<BR>
> In another vein, I located a very few copies of the<BR>
> Dumarest books, and loved them.  WHERE can I find more???<BR>
<BR>
No idea, but if you let me know which ones you're looking I'll keep an eye<BR>
out for them in the second hand bookshops.<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone wanna sell theirs??<BR>
<BR>
Nope.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:48:44 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1987<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-01 22:38:52 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 17:03:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
 From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
 Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
 <BR>
 Crossbow, definitely.  It just looks too cool.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I own one. They aren't exactly silent.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:12:39 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
>  Crossbow, definitely.  It just looks too cool.<BR>
> I own one. They aren't exactly silent.<BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
I have to second that one. A crossbow is nowwhere near as silent<BR>
as the movies would like you to believe.<BR>
Some of us found out the hard way, especially when Dad warmed your rear for<BR>
fooling with his crossbow :)<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
- ------------------------<BR>
"Never apologize, never explain."<BR>
                           Hunter S. Thompson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:15:25 EST<BR>
From: JDoch226@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller sector maps<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/1/2000 10:30:53 AM, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<Now on the web at http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html (Don's<BR>
> Traveller Site):<BR>
> <BR>
> The current "Published Traveller Sector Information" list...<BR>
>><BR>
Thanks - this was exactly what I was looking for!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:39:10 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: another example<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Steven Hudson writes:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
> >   But then, representative democracy can be called an oxymoron, and the<BR>
> > injustice of a political system that doesn't give most of its large<BR>
> > mammalian inhabitants the vote is obvious.<BR>
> <BR>
> Representative democracy is not obviously an oxymoron, its just obviously<BR>
> different from direct democracy.  And as far as it goes, I see little need<BR>
> to give votes to cattle, horses, and other animals.<BR>
<BR>
Or other food sources, such as K'kree.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:10:41 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> A recon team would avoid augmented troops. To the point of calling the<BR>
> mission if BD equipped troops showed up. Too risky.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, if the environment became sufficiently target-rich, and there were<BR>
appropriate fire-support assets on-call, the recon team might turn 13F<BR>
(forward observer, for the non-US Army heathe^h^h^h^h^h^h folks among<BR>
us), and call in fire on the poor bastids.<BR>
> <BR>
> For sentry elimiantion, I'd use a gauss rifle set to fire just below the<BR>
> speed of sound. Or tranq rounds.<BR>
<BR>
Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
team.... ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> >> The real reason we carry knives (in the US Army at least) is that MRE<BR>
> >> packages are impossible to open without them.<BR>
<BR>
Believe it or not, the late '90s MREs can be opened without a knife. <BR>
Technology marches on!  They have also added more variety to the menu,<BR>
with (IIRC) sixteen different MREs in standard cases (still twelve per<BR>
case), plus an unknown number of _vegetarian_ MREs.  This doesn't<BR>
include the various "humanitarian rations" available through US Army<BR>
supply channels, for distribution to starving indigenous personnel.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Obvious for the first part.  In reference to the MREs, I would<BR>
not be surprised if the 3I issued vegetarian field rations when fighting<BR>
the K'kree, for two reasons:<BR>
<BR>
1.  By not eating meat, the troops are slightly less likely to draw<BR>
K'kree attention by scent.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Meat-starved troops will be even more enthusiastic at the obligatory<BR>
post-victory K'kree barbecue.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:03:39 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/1/00 6:57:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!, markc@peak.org writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature >><BR>
<BR>
I vaguely remember somewhere in Canon, that the Gauss gun could be "dialed" <BR>
down to fire a subsonic round, which I assume would be silent. It would have <BR>
less power since the velocity is slower...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:21:46 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: The Universal Bar Profile<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
...<BR>
>UBP:<BR>
<BR>
  Isn't a bar code a UPC?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:25:35 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperium vs ST Federation (was re: InterstellarDemocracies IYTU)<BR>
<BR>
**WARNING:  This post includes off-color references**<BR>
<BR>
Scout Harris wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>> <BR>
<BR>
> I have had many amusing discussions with a friend of mine about the 'Evil' Federation that exists in Star Trek. We tend to point out the following.<BR>
> - There is no crime on Earth..... yet what is the New Zealand Penal Colony for?<BR>
<BR>
<tongue-in-cheek><BR>
<BR>
You misheard that.  It's the New Zealand _Penile_ Colony.  This colony<BR>
was founded to house human males who are unusually well-endowed (the<BR>
Federation not having paratroop units).  New Zealand was chosen as the<BR>
site for the colony, as Kiwis, on average, are reputed to be amply<BR>
blessed, and thus the refugees would be able to blend in more easily. <BR>
More importantly for the new settlers, Kiwi women, being accustomed to<BR>
their male counterparts' impressive counter parts, are less likely to<BR>
flee in terror from the refugees.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  The 3I, having the Imperial Marines and Imperial Army jump<BR>
troops, has no need for penile colonies of this type.  "Well-staffed"<BR>
human males need only join such a unit to find a home.  Human females,<BR>
upon seeing the jump troop or Marine insignia, already know what to<BR>
expect, and are not frightened at the Moment of Truth.<BR>
<BR>
</tongue-in-cheek><BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:27:24 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Likewise, forget chains. I expect that a standard practice exercise for<BR>
> teleports is to grab a link in a chain and port away with just that<BR>
> link. For advanced students, they practice porting back so the link<BR>
> will re-make the chain (assuming something is supporting it).<BR>
<BR>
"When you can teleport with the pebble in my hand, you are ready to<BR>
leave."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:21:48 -0500<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
<BR>
Black Ice wrote:<BR>
>"When you can teleport with the pebble in my hand, you are ready to<BR>
leave."<BR>
<BR>
Attributed to "Lefty" Vlezpridliashav, who no longer tries this bit with<BR>
the beginner classes.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:41:02 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: another example<BR>
<BR>
Terry Carlino wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: On a macro-scale the Imperium is autocratic. The Emperor is in<BR>
> charge. He designates Nobles to rule under him. However according to canon,<BR>
> in most cases the Imperial Nobles do not directly rule worlds. (Regina is an<BR>
> exception, not the norm.) Among the 11,000 worlds I would expect most to<BR>
> have a local government, be it autocratic or democratic, with the Imperial<BR>
> Noble more like an ambassador, than a ruler. Like an ambassador I would<BR>
> expect them to represent the Megacorps and Imperial bureaucracies to the<BR>
> local governments. But they would also play the opposing roles as<BR>
> representatives of the local government to the Imperial bureaucracies. They<BR>
> would be responsible for enforcing Imperial Laws, and calling in sufficient<BR>
> force to ensure compliance. But they would not meddle in local matters,<BR>
> contend for local office, or concern themselves with enforcement of local<BR>
> laws. All in all, not a terribly efficient method of government either. But<BR>
> an interesting place to visit.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this approach sums up an event IMTU.  My character's wife (now<BR>
played as another PC, to give me a reason to be involved in political<BR>
maneuverings) was awarded Arkadia, in the Spinward Marches, as a fief. <BR>
This world is listed as a Representative Democracy, with a population<BR>
(according to Galactic 2.4) of 400 million in M:1100.  When a fellow<BR>
player asked if the Baroness Margaret planned to change the government,<BR>
she replied "Hell no, unless the government isn't doing its job."  She'd<BR>
rather be the titular lord (or is that "lady"?) of a democratically run<BR>
world that functions well, than the day-to-day ruler of a world that<BR>
needs an autocrat.  I suspect that many nobles share this opinion.  Let<BR>
the locals govern themselves, as far as practical, with the Imperial<BR>
nobility intervening only when absolutely necessary (as a representative<BR>
at the Imperial court, as Court of Last Resort, etc.)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:48:29 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For now, we are limited to location by cell.  However, in a recent<BR>
> issue of Popular Science they mentioned that in a year or two<BR>
<BR>
The cellular system can actually find your location within the cell<BR>
pretty accurately.  Since a cell phone signal is always picked up by<BR>
multiple antennas, the company can deduce your location by the strength<BR>
of the signal at two or more towers.  Pretty scary....<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:23:14 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.  It's hard to<BR>
describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
<BR>
The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem him there's a<BR>
good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same with an arrow<BR>
from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart shot they still<BR>
can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to follow the blood<BR>
trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor animal to bleed out<BR>
and go into shock.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Thomas<BR>
> Vickers<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 8:13 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Silent Weapons<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >  Crossbow, definitely.  It just looks too cool.<BR>
> > I own one. They aren't exactly silent.<BR>
> > LKW<BR>
><BR>
> I have to second that one. A crossbow is nowwhere near as silent<BR>
> as the movies would like you to believe.<BR>
> Some of us found out the hard way, especially when Dad warmed<BR>
> your rear for<BR>
> fooling with his crossbow :)<BR>
><BR>
> TV<BR>
> ------------------------<BR>
> "Never apologize, never explain."<BR>
>                            Hunter S. Thompson<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 23:57:18 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.  It's hard to<BR>
> describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> 150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
<BR>
Just how loud _is_ such a crossbow?  How far away could such a crossbow<BR>
be heard over quiet conversation, for instance?<BR>
> <BR>
> The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem him there's a<BR>
> good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same with an arrow<BR>
> from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart shot they still<BR>
> can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to follow the blood<BR>
> trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor animal to bleed out<BR>
> and go into shock.<BR>
<BR>
Thus the crying need for the 3I military R&D types to develop<BR>
"hush-a-boom" explosive warheads for crossbow bolts.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 22:03:52 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
I certainly don't have a decibel reading.  About the best I can do to<BR>
directly demonstrate the sound is this:<BR>
<BR>
1.Go to my shooting site at<BR>
http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/shooting/winter_99-shoot.htm<BR>
<BR>
2.Scroll down 7 pictures<BR>
<BR>
3.Download the .mpg file named j-sd.mpg<BR>
<BR>
4.Voices in this file (and the one above it) are all ambient.  No of us were<BR>
wearing hearing protectors at this point because it was the silenced-only<BR>
part of the shooting event.  Listen to the sound of the Spanish Destroyer<BR>
that I'm shooting.<BR>
<BR>
My old Barnett Wildcat (150lb. draw on the prod IIRC) was about 2 to 2.5<BR>
times LOUDER, but with less >>crack<<.  It was a lot more >>thunk<<-ie, to<BR>
use a very technical term :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Black ICE<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 9:57 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.<BR>
> It's hard to<BR>
> > describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> > 150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
><BR>
> Just how loud _is_ such a crossbow?  How far away could such a crossbow<BR>
> be heard over quiet conversation, for instance?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem<BR>
> him there's a<BR>
> > good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same<BR>
> with an arrow<BR>
> > from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart<BR>
> shot they still<BR>
> > can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to<BR>
> follow the blood<BR>
> > trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor animal<BR>
> to bleed out<BR>
> > and go into shock.<BR>
><BR>
> Thus the crying need for the 3I military R&D types to develop<BR>
> "hush-a-boom" explosive warheads for crossbow bolts.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:24:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com><BR>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:52 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Gee I guess I'd want to know. On the other hand if Karen knew that her<BR>
>location could be traced through her cell phone don't you think she'd leave<BR>
>it somewhere else?  I expect that really dishonest people will have a way<BR>
to<BR>
>spoof these things so that they cannot be traced. Don't forget that people<BR>
>have anti-theft devices installed in their cars that tell where the vehicle<BR>
>is. Isn't this an opening for abuse? Yet the devices are a hot seller among<BR>
>the high priced car crowd.<BR>
><BR>
>As for the privacy issue, I hope that encryption technology will move apace<BR>
>so that if I want my wife to be able to find me she will be able to, but<BR>
>Johnny salesman and Bobby Federal Snoop won't.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I don't know the demographics of the high price car crowd. I believe that I<BR>
have fears about that to.<BR>
I think that what makes me more comfortable with the low jack is who<BR>
controls it. It's a private company that controls weather the thing is on or<BR>
off. so you call the company and they turn it on. The other is one company<BR>
that supplies the service supplies the tracking. The police never know you<BR>
have low jack till your car is stolen but everyone has a phone. Cell phones<BR>
are so common at the malls I see teen girls on them. So having the item<BR>
makes you track able. Or I guess it's just my old school hacker skills<BR>
working over time or something I don't know.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:31:34 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:51 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>Even the cell phone example is of limited use today. Even if PacBell can do<BR>
>it, there will be issues with crossing networks, country boundaries, German<BR>
>privacy laws, etc. These details will take 2 TLs to work out before the<BR>
>technology becomes universal. Maybe 1 TL is enough?<BR>
><BR>
>In Traveller terms, it's probably more important to know what technology is<BR>
>widely available, unless you like to run scenarios involving intellegence<BR>
>agents funded by big governments, like I do.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well the cell phone does exactly what it's surpose to do. You make phone<BR>
calls and receive them. The idea of a web phone (cell phone that gives web<BR>
access) is over kill I don't need web access that much or atlas not while<BR>
I'm standing in some part of the street, or driving. I'd settle for a<BR>
wireless internet for my laptop.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:41:33 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:25 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
<BR>
>> Only the honest ppl would be<BR>
>> able to be tracked and want the tracking.<BR>
><BR>
>And that's a problem ? Why should we cater for dishonest people ?<BR>
><grin><BR>
><BR>
>Actually, it's not a big deal really, unless you implant the cell phone in<BR>
>your head, you can always leave it behind if you don't want to be tracked.<BR>
><BR>
>BTW, the main reason for mandating the tracking as above is so that when<BR>
>people dial 111 on a cellphone, emergency services can find out where they<BR>
>are in a hurry, even if they lose the connection.<BR>
><BR>
>The other reason is to find lost or stolen cellphones.<BR>
><BR>
>Frankie<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank<BR>
<BR>
I believe that the idea that some ppl are dishonest is no reason for<BR>
everyone to submit to tracking.<BR>
It doesn't fight crime to make lemmings of everyone. cell phone lost is a<BR>
big problem just check with my consultanting company. I'm always dropping<BR>
one somewhere( I actually have lost one in a video arcade during business<BR>
hours thank god the guys there know me). Any way I have problems with the<BR>
let's make guns illegal to stop gun crime because legal guns aren't used in<BR>
crimes anyway. That seems to be the idea behind the why cater to the<BR>
dishonest  statement.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:16:17 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Source for some good background flavor<BR>
<BR>
At 03:49 02.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>On 1 Mar 00, at 19:52, Rob Eaglestone wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > In another vein, I located a very few copies of the<BR>
> > Dumarest books, and loved them. WHERE can I find more???<BR>
> > Anyone wanna sell theirs??<BR>
First question: I am looking myself. I have even resorted to buying the <BR>
german Translation just to have more.<BR>
<BR>
Second: No chance in h..., or maybe when it freezes over ;-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:17:50 +0100<BR>
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
At 05:12 02.03.00, you wrote:<BR>
> >  Crossbow, definitely.  It just looks too cool.<BR>
> > I own one. They aren't exactly silent.<BR>
> > LKW<BR>
<BR>
TWANNNNNGGGG!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:25:43 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
Chauncey Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well the cell phone does exactly what it's surpose to do. You make phone<BR>
> calls and receive them. The idea of a web phone (cell phone that gives web<BR>
> access) is over kill I don't need web access that much or atlas not while<BR>
> I'm standing in some part of the street, or driving. I'd settle for a<BR>
> wireless internet for my laptop.<BR>
<BR>
This is because you are fairly new to the technology. All of us are, because<BR>
it's new technology. Businesses, however, have an insatiable appetite for<BR>
information, and will try almost anything to make their people smarter,<BR>
faster, or handle this information better.<BR>
<BR>
I would love to have web access on my cell phone, and as soon as enough<BR>
sites are tailored to the reduced sizes of the portable devices, I will get<BR>
one.<BR>
<BR>
Consider the following scenario. I will be taking part in one of these "ask<BR>
the experts" panel discussions at InfoSec World 2000 in April. Usually, all<BR>
of the so-called experts meet before the discussion to get a heads-up on the<BR>
questions they will be asked. Once you get the questions, you always say to<BR>
yourself "Doh! If I could only look up [whatever]!" So at InfoSec World 2003<BR>
or so, I will just pull out my web phone, quickly find the information, and<BR>
stun the others with my vast knowledge of [whatever]. Nobody will know that<BR>
just I did a little last minute cramming. Even at today's cell phone rates,<BR>
it might cost $2-3 to do this type of search. That's money well spent. If<BR>
you don't have this technology, I will be able to react faster, work<BR>
smarter, and so forth. So if your company is competing with my company, I<BR>
have an advantage.<BR>
<BR>
The bottom line is that technology generally advances because of economic<BR>
pressures. To determine what technology will be like in your Traveller<BR>
universe, consider the problems facing your business, and think of an<BR>
innovative way to solve the problem. That's what technology will be like in<BR>
the future.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:36:56 +1100<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: SEC: NUDE, NUDE, NUDE<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I don't know, there's something to be said for the equation of nudity and<BR>
wits... like that old chestnut about "What is the most sensitive part of the<BR>
body when..." errrr, well, you know?<BR>
<BR>
you ever sneak through the family home naked in the middle of the night when<BR>
everyone is in bed asleep?  Try it if it's not the norm and see how<BR>
sensitive you become to your surroundings ;^)<BR>
<BR>
- - -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
    Have you ever taken the day off, er sick, commenced OPERATION NUDITY<BR>
and ahem had your partner turn up unexpected with a colleague? Luckily I had<BR>
one of those Grandma knitted holey blankets nearby.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Is there a nudist colony colony? Given the number of settlements<BR>
that seem to be sparked by those peoples who want to live or belive a<BR>
certain way I'm sure there would have to be. Somewhere 'beachy' perhaps. Mr<BR>
Battledress-as-campaign-killer would certainly stand out there.....<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
(Still enjoying not having to SEC: UNCLASSIFIED his way into the TML)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 06:58:17 +1100<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: DetCord<BR>
<BR>
Saw an engineer blow open a bag once. Amazing what you can do with<BR>
detcord...<BR>
- - --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry<BR>
<BR>
- -------<BR>
<BR>
I can make a barbie thanks to a 44 gallon drum and some detcord.<BR>
<BR>
In theory.<BR>
<BR>
BTW I failed the exam and was recommended never to hold a blasting licence.<BR>
<BR>
    I was only 19.<BR>
<BR>
- - Michael<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; High tech explosives look cool. TDX and that strip off and use det<BR>
cord stuff.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1988<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1989</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/2/00 5:36:34 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 2 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1989<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Shh - secret squirrel guns<BR>
Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
Re: EMP<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
RE: Computing quess<BR>
RE: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 22:45:06 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 00:03:39 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/1/00 6:57:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!, markc@peak.org writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature >><BR>
> <BR>
> I vaguely remember somewhere in Canon, that the Gauss gun could be "dialed" <BR>
> down to fire a subsonic round, which I assume would be silent. It would have <BR>
> less power since the velocity is slower...<BR>
<BR>
I also vaguely remember someone having a conversation with a weapons<BR>
designer who said that subsonic gauss weapon ammo was possible simply by<BR>
shaping the projectile properly (and not by "dialing down the energy").<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
It's Ensign Pillsbury! He's bread, Jim!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:11:03 +1100<BR>
From: "Karen and Michael Hughes" <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au><BR>
Subject: Shh - secret squirrel guns<BR>
<BR>
Silent guns of Yore<BR>
<BR>
Hey dudes, reference the discussions of silent guns of the past few days,<BR>
check this WWII baby out. It's a Welrod Pistol.<BR>
<BR>
Here's the blurb;<BR>
<BR>
The pistol is manual operated, single shot and is built around a baffled,<BR>
integral<BR>
suppressor unit and magazine. The suppressor itself is a series of self<BR>
sealing<BR>
metal, plus fiber, leather or rubber washers. The non-metallic washers close<BR>
after each round passes through. This effectively delays the passage of<BR>
noisy gas.<BR>
The suppressor reduces the sound by 25-30db. Officers that have used the gun<BR>
says that the sound of a shot sounds like the primer of a .22 short followed<BR>
by<BR>
a slight hiss. The shot was still noticeable, but it was difficult to hear<BR>
the direction<BR>
of the sound. The effectiveness of the silencer decreases after about 20<BR>
shots<BR>
when the washer holes becomes enlarged by the bullets.<BR>
<BR>
The site in question is http://home.sol.no/~rwemberg/guns/welrod/Welrod.html<BR>
<BR>
Is the web at home cool or what. Took me 10 min's to find . . and I didn't<BR>
even know what it was called.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav; Look deep within your heart - you know there's one in there<BR>
somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 22:24:13 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
Dom suggested I post this to the TML.  If you don't like it, you can email<BR>
him at... :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
The Invisible Killer<BR>
<BR>
Dihydrogen monoxide is colourless, odourless, tasteless, and kills<BR>
uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are<BR>
caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of<BR>
dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its<BR>
solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion<BR>
can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a<BR>
bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance.<BR>
For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain<BR>
death.<BR>
<BR>
Dihydrogen monoxide . . .<BR>
* is also known as hydroxl acid, and is the major component of<BR>
  acid rain.<BR>
* contributes to the "greenhouse effect".<BR>
* may cause severe burns.<BR>
* contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.<BR>
* accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.<BR>
* may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of<BR>
  automobile brakes.<BR>
* has been found in excised tumours of terminal cancer patients.<BR>
<BR>
Contamination Is Reaching Epidemic Proportions!<BR>
<BR>
Quantities of dihydrogen monoxide have been found in almost every<BR>
stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is<BR>
global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice.<BR>
DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the<BR>
midwest, and recently California.<BR>
<BR>
Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used:<BR>
* as an industrial solvent and coolant<BR>
* in nuclear power plants<BR>
* in the production of styrofoam<BR>
* as a fire retardant<BR>
* in many forms of cruel animal research<BR>
* in the distribution of pesticides: even after washing, produce<BR>
  remains contaminated by this chemical<BR>
* as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products<BR>
<BR>
Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing<BR>
can be done to stop them because this practice is still legal. The<BR>
impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it<BR>
any longer!<BR>
<BR>
The Horror Must Be Stopped!<BR>
<BR>
The American government has refused to ban the production,<BR>
distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its<BR>
"importance to the economic health of this nation". In fact, the<BR>
Navy and other military organisations are conducting experiments<BR>
with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control<BR>
and utilise it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military<BR>
research facilities receive tons of it through a highly<BR>
sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large<BR>
quantities for later use.<BR>
<BR>
It's Not Too Late!<BR>
<BR>
Act NOW to prevent further contamination. Find out more about this<BR>
dangerous chemical. What you don't know can hurt you and others<BR>
throughout the world.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
It's Ensign Pillsbury! He's bread, Jim!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:20:54 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: EMP<BR>
<BR>
Darryl Writes:<BR>
>EMP Shielding imply that an item is going to be exposed to EMP , therefore a<BR>
>Nuke. And since nukes are explicitly banned by the Imperium, why would it<BR>
>allow<BR>
>people to protect themselves from a weapon they reserve for themselves? I<BR>
>would<BR>
>treat EMP shielding the same way as bullet proof armour in Australia.<BR>
<BR>
I can EMP/HERF shield my vehicle with little more than wire, foil, and<BR>
other *COMMON* bits and pieces. The only problem will be the grounding<BR>
strap... it's going to contact the tarmac, which is not a great conductor.<BR>
It won't fully shield, and it won't be efficient nor pretty...<BR>
<BR>
To be honest, all I REALLY need do is have a faraday cage around the<BR>
engine, and dual electric systems: One fully inside the cage, which runs<BR>
only devices inside the cage; the other is belt powered outside the cage,<BR>
and runs the non-protected systems.<BR>
<BR>
And, in a space faring society, EMP is a MAJOR issue: solar flares generate<BR>
massive (size-wise), low intensity HERF effects. (HERF = High Energy Radio<BR>
Frequency. Radio is a component of EMP, but other effects are included in<BR>
EMP besides HERF). The Van Allen belts generate HERF effects under certain<BR>
conditions.  Travel through a magnetic field generates EMP; speed and field<BR>
strength determine energy available for induction; conductivity and<BR>
ferro-magnetic properties limit the ammount actually induced.<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:17:04 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Mar 00, at 21:23, Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.  It's hard<BR>
> to describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> 150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
> <BR>
> The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem him there's<BR>
> a good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same with an<BR>
> arrow from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart shot<BR>
> they still can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to<BR>
> follow the blood trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor<BR>
> animal to bleed out and go into shock.<BR>
<BR>
that happens with rifles, too. It's better to aim a little higher and <BR>
put your round through the lungs and the arteries and veins on the top <BR>
of the heart. For some reason that seems to give better "instant drop" <BR>
results, and even when they run they don't go as far.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:17:04 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
On 2 Mar 00, at 0:24, Chauncey Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I don't know the demographics of the high price car crowd. I believe that<BR>
> I have fears about that to. I think that what makes me more comfortable<BR>
> with the low jack is who controls it. It's a private company that controls<BR>
> weather the thing is on or off. so you call the company and they turn it<BR>
> on. The other is one company that supplies the service supplies the<BR>
> tracking. The police never know you have low jack till your car is stolen<BR>
> but everyone has a phone. Cell phones are so common at the malls I see<BR>
> teen girls on them. So having the item makes you track able. Or I guess<BR>
> it's just my old school hacker skills working over time or something I<BR>
> don't know.<BR>
<BR>
Funnily enough the one's you really want to track, like your teenager <BR>
who's out after curfew will have the darned things turned off.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:31:09 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
> Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
I heard when this was handed out by a student as part of a science project,<BR>
the majority of people supported the call for banning it, and only one<BR>
person actually knew what it was<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:50:46 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
> >Cell phones are so common at the malls I see<BR>
> > teen girls on them. So having the item makes you track able. Or I guess<BR>
> > it's just my old school hacker skills working over time or something I<BR>
> > don't know.<BR>
><BR>
> Funnily enough the one's you really want to track, like your teenager<BR>
> who's out after curfew will have the darned things turned off.<BR>
<BR>
Turning them off won't neccessarily stop them being tracked.<BR>
<BR>
There are models available that when turned "off" merely power down and<BR>
don't accept incoming calls. They still register on the network and so can<BR>
still be traced.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:50:46 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
> >Cell phones are so common at the malls I see<BR>
> > teen girls on them. So having the item makes you track able. Or I guess<BR>
> > it's just my old school hacker skills working over time or something I<BR>
> > don't know.<BR>
><BR>
> Funnily enough the one's you really want to track, like your teenager<BR>
> who's out after curfew will have the darned things turned off.<BR>
<BR>
Turning them off won't neccessarily stop them being tracked.<BR>
<BR>
There are models available that when turned "off" merely power down and<BR>
don't accept incoming calls. They still register on the network and so can<BR>
still be traced.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 22:36:02 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:23:14 -0800, Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.  It's hard to<BR>
> describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> 150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
> <BR>
> The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem him there's a<BR>
> good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same with an arrow<BR>
> from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart shot they still<BR>
> can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to follow the blood<BR>
> trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor animal to bleed out<BR>
> and go into shock.<BR>
<BR>
Didn't appear to work out that way when a local tech institute student was<BR>
murdered with a crossbow in one of their parking lots.  Nobody heard a<BR>
thing and she bled to death.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
It's Ensign Pillsbury! He's bread, Jim!<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:03:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
><BR>
>> After reading the bit about computing technology in CRT1, I came up with<BR>
>> the following rough guess as to what the next few TLs will bring.<BR>
> <snip><BR>
>> So today my wife can pick up the phone and say "Computer, call<BR>
>> Luther," and my phone rings.<BR>
>> At TL9 I can say "Computer, where is Karen?" If I'm at home,<BR>
>> my computer will recognize my voice and know from context that<BR>
>> I mean my wife. It will then interrogate other networks to<BR>
>> find her location, maybe by the location of her cell phone.<BR>
>> It gets the location of the cell she is in and compares<BR>
>> the location to maps it knows of. After a few seconds the<BR>
>> computer will reply "Karen is at the Stanford Town Center mall."<BR>
><BR>
> I already posted something like this a couple of months back.<BR>
><BR>
> That is all technically possible _now_. What is required is the social or<BR>
> commercial desire to implement it, which is not a function of tech level.<BR>
><BR>
> In fact the biggest hurdle in getting something like that to work would be<BR>
> getting the agreements between cell providers to transmit the information<BR>
> between networks,<BR>
<BR>
Nope. They are now *required* to pass that info on so that it can be<BR>
used to locate 911 calls!<BR>
<BR>
> Why ?<BR>
> What are you doing that makes it neccesaary for your location to be hidden ?<BR>
<BR>
You've got it backwards. You are asking the classic "what have you got<BR>
to hide?" that always pops up when people want privacy. <BR>
<BR>
The proper response is that *you* (generic you) don't have the right to<BR>
know where I am, because you might find a way to misuse the info. <BR>
<BR>
That's the reason for *all* privacy rights. Not so much that there's<BR>
"something to hide", but that allowing just anyone (and especially<BR>
"bored government employees") access to the info would enable any "bad<BR>
apples" to do things they shouldn't be able to. <BR>
<BR>
If Joe Public can determine my location at any given time, he can<BR>
burglarize my house, or predict when I'll be someplace isolated so he<BR>
can mug me. Or any of a *wide* number of other things.<BR>
<BR>
We have *plenty* to hide... from *dishonest* people.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:12:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Gee I guess I'd want to know. On the other hand if Karen knew that her<BR>
> location could be traced through her cell phone don't you think she'd leave<BR>
> it somewhere else?  I expect that really dishonest people will have a way to<BR>
> spoof these things so that they cannot be traced. Don't forget that people<BR>
> have anti-theft devices installed in their cars that tell where the vehicle<BR>
> is. Isn't this an opening for abuse? Yet the devices are a hot seller among<BR>
> the high priced car crowd.<BR>
<BR>
And that'll end *real* quick the first time it can be *shown* that they<BR>
were used to track someone by a government "dirty tricks" unit, or a<BR>
business rival. They'll *definitely* get unpopular if a hitman or<BR>
kidnapper bribes someone to get your location and it comes out.<BR>
<BR>
> As for the privacy issue, I hope that encryption technology will move apace<BR>
> so that if I want my wife to be able to find me she will be able to, but<BR>
> Johnny salesman and Bobby Federal Snoop won't.<BR>
<BR>
Not *possible*. The very nature of a cell phone system *requires* that<BR>
the phone system be able to locate your phone. Which means that the<BR>
Feds can do so too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:22:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> In short, even today privacy is getting to be pretty illusory, and as <BR>
>> time goes on, anyone who doesn't live in a shack in the wilderness <BR>
>> w/o any electricity is going be *very* easy to track.  Such is life in <BR>
>> the 21st.  In a decade or less it will likely be rather easy for a <BR>
>> government with an interest in such things to check every <BR>
>> phonecall and email message in their nation for certain key words <BR>
>> and phrases.  The question then is how should such technology be <BR>
>> used or not used.  The only certainties are that this technology will <BR>
>> exist and that someone will be wanting to use it.   <BR>
><BR>
> I'm not so sure about that.  Could you imagine the wasted man hours following<BR>
> up on the leads such a system would bring up.  I mean, have you used a web<BR>
> search engine lately?  Just watch any sitcom to see the humerous consequences<BR>
> of not getting the full context of a conversions.  Scale that up to the<BR>
> millions++ of phone calls made everyday.  You'll hit enough false alarms to<BR>
> make the whole thing a monumental waste of - well just about everything<BR>
> involved really: money, man house, equipment.  Then add in the backlash when<BR>
> people start getting arrested for taking about their roleplaying session the<BR>
> night before? ;)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but there's strong evidence that this *is* being done *now*. As<BR>
for "false alarms", in the Intel business they *prefer* false alarms to<BR>
missing significant messages. And I guess you aren't aware that the NSA<BR>
is one of the big backers of AI for speech recognition and parsing<BR>
"natural language". <BR>
<BR>
And don't forget that any messages (voice or text) that get flagged<BR>
will be *complete*, not partial, and the human they get referred to can<BR>
scan printed text very fast. Ditoo for intercepted audio. There are<BR>
gizmos that can speed up speech 5 times or more *without* distorting<BR>
it. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:29:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Sorry, but "EMP" is *by its nature* omnidirectional. It's a sharp<BR>
>> "pulse" in the local EM field, and such things aren't directional. Not<BR>
>> unless you make them *really* big.<BR>
><BR>
> On the other hand, people have developed HERF weapons, which look an awful<BR>
> lot like EMP to me, but are called "HERF" instead. The distinction is lost<BR>
> on me. Maybe the HERF weapons only operate over a particular frequency range<BR>
> while EMP is more broadband.  My understanding is that contemporary HERF<BR>
> weapons are quite large and require a large van for power. In any event, the<BR>
> effect on electronic systems is the same. Zap.<BR>
<BR>
HERF is High Energy Radio Frequency. It's directional to some extent,<BR>
but not very "narrow". <BR>
<BR>
Explaining the difference without pictures or being able to "wave my<BR>
hands" to illustrate is beyond me...<BR>
 <BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:32:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/1/00 6:57:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!, markc@peak.org writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature >><BR>
><BR>
> I vaguely remember somewhere in Canon, that the Gauss gun could be "dialed" <BR>
> down to fire a subsonic round, which I assume would be silent. It would have <BR>
> less power since the velocity is slower...<BR>
<BR>
Worse, since gauss "needles" are *light* this makes them essentially<BR>
*useless* against even heavy clothing. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:15:03 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >We are capable of tracking people by their cell phones today. <BR>
> >When you turn on your cell phone, the phone communicates with <BR>
> >the network, telling it where you are and who you are. So the <BR>
> >network already knows roughly where you (or at least your phone) <BR>
> >is, or at least which cell it is in. The technology just isn't there yet <BR>
> >for an arbitrary user to query the network to get this information.<BR>
> <BR>
> For now, we are limited to location by cell.  However, in a recent <BR>
> issue of Popular Science they mentioned that in a year or two <BR>
> cellphones would likely have some kind of chip to allow them to be <BR>
> located exactly using the GPS network.  The concept was billed as <BR>
> a way to help emergency services personnel find folks, but I can <BR>
> also see many other more dubious uses.  <BR>
> <BR>
Actually, they can do better than merely "which cell". A recent incident<BR>
here in the DC area:<BR>
<BR>
A woman was kidnapped/carjacked and stuffed into the trunk by the<BR>
perp. She was alert enough to grab her cell phone before she got locked<BR>
up. She had a running conversation with the 911 dispatcher. They <BR>
eventually got an engineer to try to determine her position from the<BR>
cell system. He was able to not only identify the cell, but which<BR>
tridrant (?) of the cell. <BR>
<BR>
In the end, they were able to get the victom to scrunch up in the front<BR>
of the trunk before they rammed it.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:22:26 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
It turns out that there were three posts I wanted to reply to on this<BR>
thread, and they're all by Ingo, so I will combine them.<BR>
<BR>
> From: Ingo Heinscher <BR>
> >as did Napoleon.<BR>
> <BR>
> IMHO not a good example. The young French Republic was already dead when<BR>
> he rose to power. (Robespierre was good symptom for this, I think.)<BR>
<BR>
The French (First) Republic had a problem - the people running the show all<BR>
wanted an oligarchy, rather than a democracy.  This includes Robespierre,<BR>
but more strongly, the "moderates" that overthrew him.  They were the ones<BR>
that created the conservative oligarchy that Bonaparte overthrew.  (Similar<BR>
processes happened in the English Revolution in the previous century, too).<BR>
<BR>
Robespierre, and the other Terrorists were the people who did what was<BR>
necessary for the revolution to survive.  There _were_ abuses and foul-ups,<BR>
but on the whole the Terror was unavoidable.  And the Terrorists killed a<BR>
whole bunch less people than the counter-revolutionaries did.  But that is<BR>
almost always true. <BR>
<BR>
So to bring it back to Traveller:  when autocracies are overthrown, there<BR>
are usually several different possible outcomes.  It can take several<BR>
years, and a period of instability and civil war to resolve them.  The US<BR>
had to replace its original constitution about ten years after the<BR>
revolution, and it was one of the luckier cases.<BR>
<BR>
> >Single party governments are another form of this shill.<BR>
> <BR>
> So _that_ is good example. Significant resistance against such a try is a<BR>
> good sign of a healthy republic. Healthy means: People _care_ about their<BR>
> republic. If they don't, it's just what you said: The republic will<BR>
> vanish.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, there are relatively legitimate, if temporary cases for one party<BR>
states.  (Incidentally, "single party governments" merely means that they<BR>
are not coalitions.)  After the Civil War, the Republican Party government<BR>
placed serious constraints on the ability of the Democrats to engage in<BR>
political activity, at least in the South.  Effectively, this made the USA<BR>
a one party state - the main opposition was banned, or at least crippled,<BR>
for several years - _and_it_was_entirely_justified_ (IMHO, of course).<BR>
<BR>
> What has an SF universe got to do with ideology? (other than observing<BR>
> it)<BR>
<BR>
Nothing, unless the SF universe is being used in a propogandist manner,<BR>
which has been known to happen.  Fortunately, this does not apply to<BR>
the TU.<BR>
<BR>
Ideology does, alas, have an impact on SF universes, though, as it is human<BR>
beings, the holders of the ideologies, who make the SF universes.<BR>
<BR>
Just look at the barking mad stuff I wrote up above.  :)  My TU will<BR>
inevitably be shaped by the weirdnesses built into my head.<BR>
<BR>
Ahh, this is something not actually related to what I have been writing,<BR>
but they are wise words:<BR>
> From: Anthony Jackson <BR>
> Subject: Re: another example<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, no, democracy is about rule by 'the people'.  In real-world states<BR>
> it tends to be combined with capitalism (which is not intrinsically<BR>
> related) into a sort of democracy/plutocracy.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At last I've got to where Ingo is directly addressing one of my posts:<BR>
> From: Ingo Heinscher <BR>
> >These would be states with radically democratic republican governments,<BR>
> >high degrees of state ownership in the economy (but perhaps with some<BR>
> >fairly small scale private property as well), and economic planning. <BR>
> <BR>
> Economic planning(non-market economy), uhmm, well, _that_ is one thing I<BR>
> understand that it requires a quick communication. I mean, they were<BR>
> inflexible on 20th century earth, with nearly.instaneous communication...<BR>
<BR>
Well, on a planetary/system level you have the quick communication.  On an<BR>
interstellar level, you have a finite number of ships hauling a finite<BR>
number of cargoes.  Any shipping line will have to keep track of where its<BR>
ships are, where they are going, and (in broad terms) what they are<BR>
hauling.  <BR>
<BR>
And each world's imports and exports will be going through their brokerage<BR>
firms, so they will know what is going on and off world, and they will be<BR>
able to place orders with the shipping firms, and the source worlds for the<BR>
goods they need, and so on...<BR>
<BR>
In any case, there are huge planned economies in the Traveller universe. <BR>
They're called the megacorporations.  <BR>
<BR>
> >The Imperium (that is, the megacorps) might hate their guts, but might<BR>
> > also tolerate them, if some kind of trade agreements could be reached. <BR>
> <BR>
> Which would cost that gouvernment much of their credibilty(exp?). Well, a<BR>
> non-market econmy in a small client state wouldn't be allowed to survive<BR>
> by the 3I, I think.<BR>
<BR>
I don't see that the government would have any problem trading with the 3I.<BR>
 As for being allowed to survive, well, <BR>
(a) the 3I deals with lots of societies (human and alien), including some<BR>
with quite odd, if not completely incomprehensible economies, and <BR>
(b) seems to be quite pragmatic, rather than being ideologically driven.  <BR>
<BR>
If the client state behaves itself, it might be tolerated, particularly if<BR>
it's keeping the Aslan/Vargr/Solomani/Zhodani/K'kree etc out.  The problem<BR>
would most likely be when some megacorp starts getting upset that it isn't<BR>
getting the red carpet being rolled out.  Even then, the megacorp might not<BR>
be able to get the Imperium to intervene, and might have to subvert the<BR>
naughty state itself.  That's a whole different kettle of fish.<BR>
<BR>
> >Another possibility is that a revolution occurred in an existing<BR>
> >autocratic state, and spread, possibly at bayonet point, to all the old<BR>
> >state's worlds.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Alternatively, a democratic planetary government might start crusading,<BR>
> >and spread its form of government to neighbouring worlds, at least<BR>
> >sometimes by force.<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought about these two approaches before. I came to the conclusion<BR>
> that in such a case, the Imperium would very likely have intervened,<BR>
 <BR>
The key words here are "very likely".  That is, "probably but not<BR>
necessarily".  If someone else more worrying was bothering the Imperium at<BR>
the time, the new state might manage to get off the ground.  And if it is<BR>
friendly enough to the Imperium, and lets the megacorps have their way with<BR>
it, then maybe it gets classified as "Mostly Harmless".<BR>
<BR>
> >Hmm.  Thinks:  sooner or later we'll get a satisfactory scalable<BR>
> >political/economic/military simulator.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rather later, I fear. The Illuminati will surpress this as long as it<BR>
> doesn't fit in their plans. Believe me. I tried to program one.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it's pretty complex.  Pocket Empires was a nice try, but it wasn't<BR>
really scalable.  World Tamers' Handbook was funky too, but it was perhaps<BR>
a little _too_ complex.  I got a distinct impression that trying to make it<BR>
work for a colony of a million people might be a bit of a headache.<BR>
<BR>
I think we would need to get it down as a paper system first, before trying<BR>
to program it.<BR>
<BR>
I actually had a look at Far Trader earlier this evening.  If you were to<BR>
set a limit on the populations of your worlds, and say they were fairly<BR>
youngish colonies, you might actually be able to get a low enough amount of<BR>
trade between them that you could actually keep track of the _individual<BR>
ships_....  <BR>
<BR>
And building an economic system somewhere in complexity between WTH and PEs<BR>
should be possible.<BR>
<BR>
This, of course, wouldn't be scalable, or even be able to handle very<BR>
general cases, but it might be horribly cool.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1989<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1990</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 2 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1990<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
RE: Space ecosystems and critters<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re:  The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
HELP!!!   w/ Trav-Tech<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: The Universal Bar Profile<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Vs: Computing quess, Tech availlability<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:35:04 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 11:32 PM -0800 3/1/2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>  In a message dated 3/1/00 6:57:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
>>markc@peak.org writes:<BR>
>><BR>
>>  << Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature >><BR>
>><BR>
>>  I vaguely remember somewhere in Canon, that the Gauss gun could be "dialed"<BR>
>>  down to fire a subsonic round, which I assume would be silent. It would have<BR>
>>  less power since the velocity is slower...<BR>
><BR>
>Worse, since gauss "needles" are *light* this makes them essentially<BR>
>*useless* against even heavy clothing.<BR>
<BR>
Gauss needles may be light, but there's no reason an electromagnetic<BR>
gun has to fire small projectiles.  I can understand why they often<BR>
might, since you can get obscene rates of fire.  But a large caliber,<BR>
subsonic gauss weapon is just as feasible.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:09:45 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
"James W. Lindsay" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom suggested I post this to the TML.  If you don't like it, you can email<BR>
> him at... :)<BR>
> <BR>
> Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
> <BR>
> The Invisible Killer<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
Further information on this hazardous material can be found at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.dhmo.org/<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:07:04 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Space ecosystems and critters<BR>
<BR>
Rob Eaglestone writes:<BR>
>From what Ian Ferguson wrote, it seems like asteroid<BR>
>dwellers would have dead space that's used to store<BR>
>oxygen / whatever they breathe.<BR>
<BR>
	I figure that the biggest problem that vacc life<BR>
	would generally have is access to critical<BR>
	materials.  Thus, they might try to hang on to<BR>
	anything important.<BR>
<BR>
>I had an additional thought: perhaps critters can<BR>
>'exhale' as an additional means of propulstion.  In<BR>
>addition, can exhaling be used to recapture a bit<BR>
>of energy or heat?<BR>
<BR>
	See my description of space cigars: probably the<BR>
	most common materials encountered by vacc life<BR>
	(like H2) would be mostly useless, so would make<BR>
	good candidates for propellant.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:14:47 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Jesse DeGraff writes:<BR>
>Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.  It's hard to<BR>
>describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
>150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
<BR>
	"Silent" is a relative term, of course.  At about what range would a<BR>
	typical sentry have a good chance of hearing a "military crossbow" in<BR>
	a quiet field with a little breeze?  Would it be much louder than a<BR>
	sentry falling dead?<BR>
<BR>
>The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem him there's a<BR>
>good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same with an arrow<BR>
>from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart shot they still<BR>
>can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to follow the blood<BR>
>trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor animal to bleed out<BR>
>and go into shock.<BR>
<BR>
	True, but the "military crossbow" in Traveller (at least, in CT) does<BR>
	as much damage as a rifle (IIRC).  The "to hit" roll may be a little<BR>
	trickier, but at "medium" range the croosbow might work quite well, as<BR>
	long as there is not another sentry close enough to hear the crossbow<BR>
	discharge or the target fall.  And it does look cool.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:17:18 -0600 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Grant posted:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>(Warning: Does not conform to the Miller Morality Protocols)<BR>
><BR>
>Physical Risk  (2D)<BR>
><BR>
>Result Rating  Description<BR>
> 15+     F     After-work hang-out of the Famille Spofulam High Energy<BR>
                Solutions Division.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
SPLOORT! 'coughcough'  <BR>
<BR>
OWWW!<BR>
<BR>
Dang it, Glenn, hot coffee up the nose *hurts*!<BR>
<BR>
(Your writeup just became a campaign standard)<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:17:49 -0800<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: HELP!!!   w/ Trav-Tech<BR>
<BR>
HELP!!!<BR>
<BR>
I have tried to sign up with the Trav-Tech mailing list, but I keep <BR>
getting the message that the address does not exist.<BR>
<BR>
I received a message from the Trav-Tech list stating I should send an <BR>
authentication code to a specified address.  I do so, but nothing <BR>
works.<BR>
<BR>
The address I have sent it to was "majordomo@qrc.com".<BR>
<BR>
HELP!!!  Does the Trav-Tech mailing list exist ??<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your help.  --Robert<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:06:43<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 07:35 AM 3/2/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>At 11:32 PM -0800 3/1/2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Worse, since gauss "needles" are *light* this makes them essentially<BR>
>>*useless* against even heavy clothing.<BR>
<BR>
Then aim for the neck/head. With high tech sights, similar to the system<BR>
that adjusts the maingun of the M1A1, targeting will be that much easier.<BR>
<BR>
>Gauss needles may be light, but there's no reason an electromagnetic<BR>
>gun has to fire small projectiles.  I can understand why they often<BR>
>might, since you can get obscene rates of fire.  But a large caliber,<BR>
>subsonic gauss weapon is just as feasible.<BR>
<BR>
The canonical Gauss rifle round is a 4mm x 40mm, 4 grams, fired at up to<BR>
1500 meters a second.  The round is described as having a armor-piercing<BR>
core (which is why ACQ has gauss weapons listed as armor piercing.)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:09:17<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
At 10:36 PM 3/1/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Didn't appear to work out that way when a local tech institute student was<BR>
>murdered with a crossbow in one of their parking lots.  Nobody heard a<BR>
>thing and she bled to death.<BR>
<BR>
she probably went into shock quickly.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:21:43 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: The Universal Bar Profile<BR>
<BR>
Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
> ...<BR>
> >UBP:<BR>
> <BR>
>   Isn't a bar code a UPC?<BR>
<BR>
To quote the short alien from "Dark City":<BR>
<BR>
	"Kiiiill hiiim."<BR>
<BR>
:^)<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:40:24 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
<kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Hey dudes, reference the discussions of silent guns of the past few days,<BR>
> check this WWII baby out. It's a Welrod Pistol.<BR>
> <BR>
> Here's the blurb;<BR>
> <BR>
> The pistol is manual operated, single shot and is built around a baffled,<BR>
> integral suppressor unit and magazine. The suppressor itself is a series<BR>
> of self sealing metal, plus fiber, leather or rubber washers. The<BR>
> non-metallic washers close after each round passes through. This<BR>
> effectively delays the passage of noisy gas.  The suppressor reduces the<BR>
> sound by 25-30db. Officers that have used the gun says that the sound<BR>
> of a shot sounds like the primer of a .22 short followed by a slight<BR>
> hiss. The shot was still noticeable, but it was difficult to hear the<BR>
> direction of the sound. The effectiveness of the silencer decreases after<BR>
> about 20 shots when the washer holes becomes enlarged by the bullets.<BR>
<BR>
This is old "wipes" technology.  Modern suppressors are "wipeless",<BR>
which means that no part comes in contact with the departing round<BR>
and thus is worn out.  Since modern suppressor baffles are metal or<BR>
synthetic, high machining tolerances and accurate alignment with the<BR>
barrel are critical.  We had a shooter "cook" a suppressor on an<BR>
M-16 at the last APRC Winter Full-Auto Shoot.  (I *think* Doug Berry<BR>
actually saw it take place.)  The gun overheated the suppressor,<BR>
which caused it to change internal tolerances and one or more<BR>
rounds collided with the metal baffles on the way out.  Not a<BR>
pretty sight.<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem him there's<BR>
> > a good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same with an<BR>
> > arrow from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart shot<BR>
> > they still can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to<BR>
> > follow the blood trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor<BR>
> > animal to bleed out and go into shock.<BR>
> <BR>
> that happens with rifles, too. It's better to aim a little higher and <BR>
> put your round through the lungs and the arteries and veins on the top <BR>
> of the heart. For some reason that seems to give better "instant drop" <BR>
> results, and even when they run they don't go as far.<BR>
<BR>
I'd have to argue that one.  I hunt Mule Deer in Central Oregon every<BR>
fall.  Usually a heart shot drops the deer within 20-30 yards (if not<BR>
right in his tracks.)  A lung shot may require me to chase a blood<BR>
trail for 2+ miles.  This is simple physiology: even collapsed lungs<BR>
allow the heart a small amount of O2.  If the heart itself fails,<BR>
the rest of the body gets *none*.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > << Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I vaguely remember somewhere in Canon, that the Gauss gun could be<BR>
> > "dialed" down to fire a subsonic round, which I assume would be silent.<BR>
> > It would have less power since the velocity is slower...<BR>
> <BR>
> Worse, since gauss "needles" are *light* this makes them essentially<BR>
> *useless* against even heavy clothing. <BR>
<BR>
Oh, yeah.  If memory serves me correctly, gauss needles are smaller than<BR>
.22 slugs, right?  If so, and you reduce the velocity to subsonic, you<BR>
could almost catch them with a heavy glove and not be hurt.<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), GOA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:54:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 08:40 AM 3/2/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>We had a shooter "cook" a suppressor on an<BR>
>M-16 at the last APRC Winter Full-Auto Shoot.  (I *think* Doug Berry<BR>
>actually saw it take place.)<BR>
<BR>
I caught it out of the corner of my eye and almost dived for cover. Nice<BR>
big fireball, about 4-5 feet across, loud *boom*.<BR>
<BR>
Almost as exciting as the one club member and his empty MG-42... <BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:08:07 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/2/00 4:21:35 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< she probably went into shock quickly. >><BR>
<BR>
I hope so...:-(. Not the worst way to die, but certainly not the best way <BR>
either...:-(. I hope they caught the a**h**e<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:59:42 +0200<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Computing quess, Tech availlability<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:43 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> In Traveller terms, it's probably more important to know what technology is<BR>
> widely available, unless you like to run scenarios involving intellegence<BR>
> agents funded by big governments, like I do.<BR>
> <BR>
That reminds me of something I wrote for Delta Green: <BR>
(Here's a quick and dirty translation/summary)<BR>
The basic presumption is that these inventions are made in secret labs. <BR>
<BR>
10 steps from theory to households<BR>
<BR>
Step 1: theory, known only in the lab responsible and it's superiors.<BR>
Step 2: 1st prototypes, known only in the lab responsible and it's superiors.<BR>
Step 3: 1st limited use prototypes. Only a few made. Known on other levels of organization.<BR>
Step 4: Limited production, to be used by trained specialists. Known thorough the secret organization.<BR>
Step 5: Production by associated corporation. Used by field operatives.<BR>
Step 6: Military secret, known by other parts of the government, foreign governments. Used outside secret operations. <BR>
Step 7: Other major players learn to manufacture their own clones. Civilians outside of the governments using the invention are getting to know of it and it's capabilities.<BR>
Step 8: In common military use. <BR>
Step9: 1st commercially availlable variants/spin-offs.<BR>
Step 10: Widely availlable, but still hi-tech devices using the principles of the invention.<BR>
<BR>
The invention advances from one step to another in 1-10 years, depending on circumstances. (The time can be highly variable, especially when speaking of sf-inventions.)<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:08:31 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Shit, THAT idiot...I'd managed to block him from my memory.  Thanks Doug ;)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Safe gun handling is going to be even MORE of an issue in the<BR>
future with things like FGMP's :)  If you AD/ND with that thing and it's<BR>
pointing close to you, you're splash-cooked.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:55 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 08:40 AM 3/2/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >We had a shooter "cook" a suppressor on an<BR>
> >M-16 at the last APRC Winter Full-Auto Shoot.  (I *think* Doug Berry<BR>
> >actually saw it take place.)<BR>
><BR>
> I caught it out of the corner of my eye and almost dived for cover. Nice<BR>
> big fireball, about 4-5 feet across, loud *boom*.<BR>
><BR>
> Almost as exciting as the one club member and his empty MG-42...<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:08:20 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
I saw that baby cook too :)  Unfortunatley, I don't think I caught it on<BR>
video.  Yeowch!!  Bet that was expensive!  At least the shooter handled the<BR>
incident well by keeping the weapon up and downrange for a minute, then<BR>
clearing the mag and chamber while still keeping it securely pointing<BR>
downrange.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  You are SSOOOO f#@%ed if this happens to you in the middle of a<BR>
firefight, or when you're trying to quietly take out that sentry :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Mark Cook<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:40 AM<BR>
> To: Traveller Mail List<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> <kmhughes@dynamite.com.au> writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > Hey dudes, reference the discussions of silent guns of the past<BR>
> few days,<BR>
> > check this WWII baby out. It's a Welrod Pistol.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Here's the blurb;<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The pistol is manual operated, single shot and is built around<BR>
> a baffled,<BR>
> > integral suppressor unit and magazine. The suppressor itself is a series<BR>
> > of self sealing metal, plus fiber, leather or rubber washers. The<BR>
> > non-metallic washers close after each round passes through. This<BR>
> > effectively delays the passage of noisy gas.  The suppressor reduces the<BR>
> > sound by 25-30db. Officers that have used the gun says that the sound<BR>
> > of a shot sounds like the primer of a .22 short followed by a slight<BR>
> > hiss. The shot was still noticeable, but it was difficult to hear the<BR>
> > direction of the sound. The effectiveness of the silencer<BR>
> decreases after<BR>
> > about 20 shots when the washer holes becomes enlarged by the bullets.<BR>
><BR>
> This is old "wipes" technology.  Modern suppressors are "wipeless",<BR>
> which means that no part comes in contact with the departing round<BR>
> and thus is worn out.  Since modern suppressor baffles are metal or<BR>
> synthetic, high machining tolerances and accurate alignment with the<BR>
> barrel are critical.  We had a shooter "cook" a suppressor on an<BR>
> M-16 at the last APRC Winter Full-Auto Shoot.  (I *think* Doug Berry<BR>
> actually saw it take place.)  The gun overheated the suppressor,<BR>
> which caused it to change internal tolerances and one or more<BR>
> rounds collided with the metal baffles on the way out.  Not a<BR>
> pretty sight.<BR>
><BR>
> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > > The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you<BR>
> brain-stem him there's<BR>
> > > a good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.<BR>
> Same with an<BR>
> > > arrow from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a<BR>
> heart shot<BR>
> > > they still can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to<BR>
> > > follow the blood trail, if they can, into the woods waiting<BR>
> for the poor<BR>
> > > animal to bleed out and go into shock.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > that happens with rifles, too. It's better to aim a little higher and<BR>
> > put your round through the lungs and the arteries and veins on the top<BR>
> > of the heart. For some reason that seems to give better "instant drop"<BR>
> > results, and even when they run they don't go as far.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd have to argue that one.  I hunt Mule Deer in Central Oregon every<BR>
> fall.  Usually a heart shot drops the deer within 20-30 yards (if not<BR>
> right in his tracks.)  A lung shot may require me to chase a blood<BR>
> trail for 2+ miles.  This is simple physiology: even collapsed lungs<BR>
> allow the heart a small amount of O2.  If the heart itself fails,<BR>
> the rest of the body gets *none*.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > > << Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature >><BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > I vaguely remember somewhere in Canon, that the Gauss gun could be<BR>
> > > "dialed" down to fire a subsonic round, which I assume would<BR>
> be silent.<BR>
> > > It would have less power since the velocity is slower...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Worse, since gauss "needles" are *light* this makes them essentially<BR>
> > *useless* against even heavy clothing.<BR>
><BR>
> Oh, yeah.  If memory serves me correctly, gauss needles are smaller than<BR>
> .22 slugs, right?  If so, and you reduce the velocity to subsonic, you<BR>
> could almost catch them with a heavy glove and not be hurt.<BR>
><BR>
>         - Mark C.<BR>
>           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
>           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
>           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
>           NRA (Life), GOA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
>           Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
><BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
>  mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
>  7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
>  Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax:<BR>
> 541-745-5818<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:03:07 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Unless they figure a way to may the crossbow more silent, I'm guessing ~15<BR>
yards, maybe more, assuming an instant drop hit on the sentry.  Also, the<BR>
more gear the sentry has, the more likely it is that Mr. Murphy is gonna'<BR>
make it clank when you drop 'em.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ian Ferguson<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:15 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Jesse DeGraff writes:<BR>
> >Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.<BR>
> It's hard to<BR>
> >describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> >150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
><BR>
> 	"Silent" is a relative term, of course.  At about what range would a<BR>
> 	typical sentry have a good chance of hearing a "military<BR>
> crossbow" in<BR>
> 	a quiet field with a little breeze?  Would it be much louder than a<BR>
> 	sentry falling dead?<BR>
><BR>
> >The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem<BR>
> him there's a<BR>
> >good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same<BR>
> with an arrow<BR>
> >from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart<BR>
> shot they still<BR>
> >can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to follow<BR>
> the blood<BR>
> >trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor animal<BR>
> to bleed out<BR>
> >and go into shock.<BR>
><BR>
> 	True, but the "military crossbow" in Traveller (at least,<BR>
> in CT) does<BR>
> 	as much damage as a rifle (IIRC).  The "to hit" roll may be a little<BR>
> 	trickier, but at "medium" range the croosbow might work<BR>
> quite well, as<BR>
> 	long as there is not another sentry close enough to hear<BR>
> the crossbow<BR>
> 	discharge or the target fall.  And it does look cool.<BR>
><BR>
> :)<BR>
> Peez<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:52:59 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
There is also the simple issue of shock.  People have tied of simple shock<BR>
after being shot in the foot with a .22, whereas other people have taken<BR>
horrendous damage and lived because they DIDN'T go into shock.  Thinking<BR>
you've been shot (with either a gun, crossbow, blowgun, whatever) and are<BR>
going to die no matter what will kill you just as dead as being hit point<BR>
blank, unarmored, and center mass with a FGMP-15.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James W.<BR>
> Lindsay<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 10:36 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2000 21:23:14 -0800, Jesse DeGraff wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.<BR>
> It's hard to<BR>
> > describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> > 150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The other issue is hitting your target.  Unless you brain-stem<BR>
> him there's a<BR>
> > good chance that he's going to scream like a stuck pig.  Same<BR>
> with an arrow<BR>
> > from a bow.  Bow hunters can tell you that even with a heart<BR>
> shot they still<BR>
> > can lose their prey occaisionally.  They end up having to<BR>
> follow the blood<BR>
> > trail, if they can, into the woods waiting for the poor animal<BR>
> to bleed out<BR>
> > and go into shock.<BR>
><BR>
> Didn't appear to work out that way when a local tech institute student was<BR>
> murdered with a crossbow in one of their parking lots.  Nobody heard a<BR>
> thing and she bled to death.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
> Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> It's Ensign Pillsbury! He's bread, Jim!<BR>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 08:58:00 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
So what you do is design a very large caliber (maybe .50AE +) gauss rifle<BR>
that only shoots sub-sonic, and uses the "flying ashtray" method of bullet<BR>
design :)  This'd be pretty nasty in the hands of a spec ops operator vs.<BR>
un-armored or lightly armored (i.e. vest only, so hit the head) target.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 11:33 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > In a message dated 3/1/00 6:57:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!,<BR>
> markc@peak.org writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > << Gauss weapons have an audible (supersonic) signature >><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I vaguely remember somewhere in Canon, that the Gauss gun could<BR>
> be "dialed"<BR>
> > down to fire a subsonic round, which I assume would be silent.<BR>
> It would have<BR>
> > less power since the velocity is slower...<BR>
><BR>
> Worse, since gauss "needles" are *light* this makes them essentially<BR>
> *useless* against even heavy clothing.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:42:54 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
<BR>
>As for the privacy issue, I hope that encryption technology <BR>
>will move apace so that if I want my wife to be able to find me<BR>
<BR>
>she will be able to, but Johnny salesman and Bobby Federal <BR>
>Snoop won't.<BR>
<BR>
Mom:  it's cold, so wear a coat, and don't forget your phone!<BR>
Me:  Mom, I'm 41 years old and I know enough to carry my coat<BR>
and phone, already<BR>
Mom:  well, you'll always be my little boy<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
(actually, I'm fortunate that my mom is not too much like that,<BR>
but she is still my mom)<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1990<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1991</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/2/00 4:50:57 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, March 2 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1991<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: minutes of Fame<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
Trav Economics Gearheading Alert<BR>
Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Computing guess<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Computing guess<BR>
Last Update: Keith Supplements<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: We are komink....<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:48:28 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: minutes of Fame<BR>
<BR>
>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
<BR>
>And Glenn scores a solid 2.0 from me; the artist in the next <BR>
>office asked me if I was all right when I busted out laughing.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you, thank you, applause is very important to me, thank<BR>
you.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 09:59:26 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:08:07 EST, Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 3/2/00 4:21:35 PM !!!First Boot!!!, <BR>
> gridlore@pop.mindspring.com writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << she probably went into shock quickly. >><BR>
> <BR>
> I hope so...:-(. Not the worst way to die, but certainly not the best way <BR>
> either...:-(. I hope they caught the a**h**e<BR>
<BR>
I don't think so.  There were rumours that the girl was the daughter of<BR>
either a prominent Hong Kong businessman or drug dealer.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Nothing is impossible for anyone impervious to reason<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:41:33 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
<BR>
Excellent!  I would just note that the Vargr are known to have<BR>
fight bars -- bars where you go specifically for the purpose of<BR>
getting into a bar fight.  Usually no one gets seriously hurt. <BR>
Human skin is not as tough as Vargr skin, of course, nor do<BR>
humans have claws, so it's worth perfecting some good blocks and<BR>
dodges before visiting a Vargr fight bar.  <BR>
<BR>
I think Vargr fight bars are mentioned in a BITS publication<BR>
that Alex Ingram showed me, but I don't recall now.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:52:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
OK, a crossbow isn't silent -- but no one has opposed my<BR>
position that it looks cool.<BR>
<BR>
How about a laser as a silent weapon?  It seems to me that,<BR>
under Striker and/or Mercenary, visible light lasers had a<BR>
signature DM, but X-ray lasers did not.  If that is correct,<BR>
what was the signature?  Light diffusion or sound? Does the<BR>
laser make any sound, either with the air or in the weapon<BR>
itself (hmm bzzt! frch! or something?)?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:59:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: low-level teleportation<BR>
<BR>
>From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
<BR>
>>"When you can teleport with the pebble in my hand, you are <BR>
>>ready to leave."<BR>
>Attributed to "Lefty" Vlezpridliashav, who no longer tries this<BR>
<BR>
>bit with the beginner classes.<BR>
<BR>
I am trying very hard not to laugh out loud, and my ribs hurt. <BR>
The person who shares my office is trying very hard to<BR>
concentrate on her telephone conversation and not ask me what is<BR>
so damn funny!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:03:28 -0800<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
On Wednesday, March 01, 2000 9:23 PM<BR>
Jesse DeGraff said,<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.  It's<BR>
hard to<BR>
> describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> 150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
<BR>
I was under the impression that most of the noise from modern crossbows<BR>
comes from the materials used and the speed of the string when fired.<BR>
If you where willing to use a lower poundage so that you could use<BR>
lighter materials for the bow arms and the string you could probably<BR>
make it as quiet as a traditional bow, of course your air speed would<BR>
drop a lot.<BR>
<BR>
The gentleman that used to cut my hair told me a story of how back when<BR>
he was in the navy he got bored and built himself a crossbow using the<BR>
leaf springs from a jeep.  He had to use some angle iron for the bolt to<BR>
take the strain.  He only got to fire it once.  He took it to the galley<BR>
because it had nice solid bulkheads and then fired it through several<BR>
lined up garbage cans.  Apparently the marines came running to the noise<BR>
of his bolt ricocheting off the bulkheads and took his toy from him.<BR>
<BR>
For a good silent weapon against unarmored people I like using a sling<BR>
with a wet clay bullet.  You don't loose the kinetic energy from having<BR>
it bounce off the target that way.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
=======<BR>
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."  - Napoleon Bonaparte<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:08:24 -0900<BR>
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but I'm rather addicted to the stuff... have been since before<BR>
birth. Have very funny withdraws when deprived of it....<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click<BR>
interface!"<BR>
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-<BR>
533<BR>
aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis ICQ:14640742   ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+<BR>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls<BR>
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:51:37 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Ray Wiberg <ray@cloudfactory.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
> perp. She was alert enough to grab her cell phone before she got locked<BR>
> up. She had a running conversation with the 911 dispatcher. They <BR>
> eventually got an engineer to try to determine her position from the<BR>
> cell system. He was able to not only identify the cell, but which<BR>
> tridrant (?) of the cell. <BR>
> <BR>
> In the end, they were able to get the victom to scrunch up in the front<BR>
> of the trunk before they rammed it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
She survived pretty much unscathed too, a couple scrapes and vruises...her<BR>
car was totalled!<BR>
<BR>
Ray<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:46:26 +0000<BR>
From: Paul Campbell <kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 02 Mar 2000, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> > Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
> <BR>
> I heard when this was handed out by a student as part of a science project,<BR>
> the majority of people supported the call for banning it, and only one<BR>
> person actually knew what it was<BR>
<BR>
I got as far as 'and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice.'<BR>
before I thought to actually /read/ the 'name' of the chemical.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Paul Campbell<BR>
kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 13:30:50 +1100<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
Weeee're backie-wackie, an an an an an weeeeere glaaaad that everybody-wodie<BR>
miiiiised us (an an an weeeee thinkie-winkie that our<BR>
eeeee-ceeeeeeeeeee-emmmmmm miiiiiiight have had something-wumthing to do<BR>
wiiiith it).<BR>
<BR>
An an an there's talk about barsie-warsies. Weeee weckon that a baaar is a<BR>
pretty-witty neeeato place. You know-know-knowie-know that you can take alll<BR>
the pweettty lights, an an an the refridgerator induuuuction coilsie-woilsie<BR>
an an an all that niiiicely machined glassie-wassie, an an an the<BR>
coimputer-wuter out of the aiiiiiir conditioning an an ana n an build a<BR>
particle-warticle accelerator.<BR>
<BR>
Weeee did that laaaaaaast year, an an an an we took out the haberdashery<BR>
shop next dooooooor. Uncie-wunkie Hengie had to payyyyy lots of money-wunnie<BR>
cwedit-wedits to the ooooowners, but noooooo-one got hurtie-wurite.<BR>
Wellllll, hurtie-wurtie baaaad enough to actually dieee-wieee.<BR>
<BR>
Your loving cousin,<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:30:20 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
> OK, a crossbow isn't silent -- but no one has opposed my<BR>
> position that it looks cool.<BR>
> <BR>
> How about a laser as a silent weapon?  It seems to me that,<BR>
> under Striker and/or Mercenary, visible light lasers had a<BR>
> signature DM, but X-ray lasers did not.  If that is correct,<BR>
> what was the signature?  Light diffusion or sound? Does the<BR>
> laser make any sound, either with the air or in the weapon<BR>
> itself (hmm bzzt! frch! or something?)?<BR>
<BR>
Realistically, probably a flash of superheated air and an explosive crack.  <BR>
Then again, realistically range for an X-ray laser in air is only a couple<BR>
of meters, air is opaque to X-rays.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:54:27 -0800<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> In a decade or less it will likely be rather easy for a <BR>
>> government with an interest in such things to check every <BR>
>> phonecall and email message in their nation for certain key <BR>
>>words and phrases.  <BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, but there's strong evidence that this *is* being done *now*. <BR>
>As for "false alarms", in the Intel business they *prefer* false <BR>
>alarms to missing significant messages. And I guess you aren't <BR>
>aware that the NSA is one of the big backers of AI for speech <BR>
>recognition and parsing "natural language". <BR>
<BR>
>And don't forget that any messages (voice or text) that get flagged<BR>
>will be *complete*, not partial, and the human they get referred to <BR>
>can scan printed text very fast. Ditoo for intercepted audio. There <BR>
>are gizmos that can speed up speech 5 times or more *without* <BR>
>distorting it. <BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I had heard rumors that all international email and <BR>
phonecalls were being checked, but they may well now have the <BR>
capacity to check everything (shudder).  Combine that with the <BR>
level of camera surveillance in use in Britain (which now includes <BR>
video cameras linked to face-recognition software which can scan <BR>
something like 3,000 faces/second (also from Popular Science)<BR>
and keeping track of everyone constantly is getting to be a very <BR>
real possibility.  <BR>
<BR>
I can only see 2 reasonable ways to go here:<BR>
<BR>
1) Everyone has access to all such data, including the ability for <BR>
citizens to observe closely the goings on of the government and <BR>
large corporations.  This would produce what might well be a very <BR>
interesting, if very different society. <BR>
<BR>
2) Use of this tech is outlawed & no one has access to it (pretty <BR>
darn unlikely if you ask me governments and large corporations <BR>
break laws with great frequency).  <BR>
<BR>
Allowing only governments and large corporations to have such <BR>
data scares the hell out of me.  If nothing else, the capacity of <BR>
governments to harass dissidents, and the capacity for <BR>
corporations to find dirt on anyone attempting to attack their <BR>
abuses is highly disturbing.  <BR>
<BR>
Bringing things back to Traveller, I would expect any world with a <BR>
TL of 12+  to have definitely faced such issues (if nothing else, <BR>
robot brains with full speech recognition allow for completely <BR>
automated surveillance system.  <BR>
<BR>
On some worlds, such tech will be illegal, on others either the <BR>
government or the entire planet could potentially observe the PC's<BR>
antics.  Having a few worlds where the PCs faces end up splashed <BR>
over web pages world-wide could be great fun.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindpsring.com  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:53:23 +1300<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
On 2 Mar 00, at 8:40, Mark Cook wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I'd have to argue that one.  I hunt Mule Deer in Central Oregon every<BR>
> fall.  Usually a heart shot drops the deer within 20-30 yards (if not<BR>
> right in his tracks.)  A lung shot may require me to chase a blood trail<BR>
> for 2+ miles.  This is simple physiology: even collapsed lungs allow the<BR>
> heart a small amount of O2.  If the heart itself fails, the rest of the<BR>
> body gets *none*.<BR>
<BR>
I wrote from my experience (and an aquaintence's) with Red Deer. We <BR>
found that when shot in the heart sometimes the darned things would run <BR>
up to 100 yards before they dropped, and as New Zealand bush tends to <BR>
be quite heavy theycan be hard to find. When shot just above the heart <BR>
they tended not run, but to drop almost instantly. This isn't so much a <BR>
lung shot, as shooting off the arteries and veins that connect the <BR>
heart to the rest of the body. I'm not sure why this works better than <BR>
a direct heart shot, but it seems to. For a straight lung shot a agree <BR>
with you completely - here they disappear in the bush, and often you <BR>
lose them. Not good.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
An pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 15:01:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Universal Bar Profile (long!)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:30 PM 3/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>(Warning: Does not conform to the Miller Morality Protocols)<BR>
><BR>
>UBP: Universal Bar Profile<BR>
>by Glenn Grant<BR>
<BR>
Glenn, mind if this goes up on the Silly Era?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:14:10 +1100<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Trav Economics Gearheading Alert<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:22:26 +1000<BR>
> From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
> I actually had a look at Far Trader earlier this evening.  If you were to<BR>
> set a limit on the populations of your worlds, and say they were fairly<BR>
> youngish colonies, you might actually be able to get a low enough amount<BR>
of<BR>
> trade between them that you could actually keep track of the _individual<BR>
> ships_....<BR>
><BR>
> And building an economic system somewhere in complexity between WTH and<BR>
PEs<BR>
> should be possible.<BR>
><BR>
> This, of course, wouldn't be scalable, or even be able to handle very<BR>
> general cases, but it might be horribly cool.<BR>
<BR>
The Grand Unified Traveller Trade Theory. And what you want to track are not<BR>
the ships, but the shipments ...<BR>
<BR>
Basically, you need to build a Sraffa model for the whole show (see Piero<BR>
Sraffa, Production of Commodities by means of Commodities). Each world's<BR>
export sectors get a formula like a=0.7a + 2b +c + d + 4pop - to make a unit<BR>
of A, you need 0.7 units of a, 2 units of b, a unit of c, a unit of d and 4<BR>
population. We cheat on local production by saying "Export sector has a size<BR>
limit of 5*TL of the rest of the economy".<BR>
<BR>
To keep it simpler, each world gets only one export commodity, and all<BR>
"luxuries" (anything not used in a production process) gets a generic<BR>
identifier (or a destination world).<BR>
<BR>
After solving up to a zillion simultaneous equations, we then have a static<BR>
model.<BR>
<BR>
Alternativly, we can just do a Star Trader kinda thing, and set a stock of<BR>
each good on each world and a price track, and get agents to buy, sell and<BR>
bid to ship stuff from world to world ("Factories" could be built from<BR>
particular bundles of commodities - if you want to build a "1A = 0.7A + 0.3<BR>
B" factory that turns A and B into more A, then you need to buy and then<BR>
import 3A,4B and 5C onto the world, and wait 2 time units. This will turn<BR>
this from a trade model into a production+trade model. Or you could just say<BR>
World X produces 4 Y a turn, and then auctions it). Note each agent owns<BR>
particular stocks of resources and could act to a particular algorithm. Over<BR>
time, resources should accrete to the successful agents.<BR>
<BR>
Over time, prices should stabailse at a particular level ... although I have<BR>
a strong suspicion that chaotic effects will be present.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:26:42 -0500<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:45:27 -0500 (EST), "Scout Harris"<BR>
<scout.harry@eudoramail.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Why does the Imperium outlaw slavery? Does this only apply to<BR>
>commerce between worlds, or does it mean that if the Imperium<BR>
>integrates a world with a Roman style of Government, they<BR>
>intervene to free all the slaves?<BR>
<BR>
>I have just been reading Colleen McCullochs 'Caesar', and find it<BR>
>fascinating how the Roman Republic (soon to be empire) gained all<BR>
>its territory. A lot of the Roman leaders used to make money<BR>
>after putting down insurgent tribes by selling them into slavery. <BR>
<BR>
>I am in no way suggesting that the Imperium should do this! I<BR>
>like the anti-slavery Laws (gives good potential for adveture<BR>
>hooks). I was just wondering how they would handle a world with<BR>
>institutionalised slavery. <BR>
<BR>
All slavery is not created equal.<BR>
<BR>
What the Imperium prohibits is specifically "chattel slavery",<BR>
wherein the enslaved being is property in toto to another being.<BR>
Other forms of slavery - such as debt slavery/indentured<BR>
servitude (which the Romans practiced), peonage (common in<BR>
Medival times), or penal servitude (which is what a "chain gang"<BR>
is) - are permitted subject to local law.<BR>
<BR>
Fundamentally, the "legal" difference is that under chattel<BR>
slavery, the slave has no rights, whereas under the others, the<BR>
slave has some rights, even if those rights extend to no more<BR>
than the right to terminate the relationship (by meeting the<BR>
[fixed] conditions for release).<BR>
<BR>
Social seed: What if "property rights" refers not to the rights<BR>
you have to control your property, but to the rights your<BR>
property has "against" you?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:50:33 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-02 12:46:51 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< >she will be able to, but Johnny salesman and Bobby Federal <BR>
 >Snoop won't.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Johnny salesman will figure out something (as will Bobby Feebie). Remind me <BR>
to tell you sometime how telemarketers get unlisted numbers.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
***<BR>
<BR>
 You talked me into it <BR>
<BR>
(From my 8 hours as a telemarketer -- they lied to me when I was hired . . . <BR>
I was told I would _NOT_ be doing cold calls, but would be calling people who <BR>
had "expressed an interest in hearing about the product" It didn't take long <BR>
to figure out what was going on. I took 3 days training and then quit at the <BR>
end of my first shift.)<BR>
<BR>
The computer dials every number in an exchange. If modem/fax/etc. answers, <BR>
the computer removes it from the list. If an answering machine answers, the <BR>
clerk (moi) hits a button and the computer cycles it back into the queue. The <BR>
computer knows phone booth numbers (the phone company supplies them. If the <BR>
number is not in service the clerk (moi) pushes a "not in service" button. If <BR>
the number is a government office, or a phone in an elevator, or something <BR>
they can't make a dime off of, the clerk is allowed to punch the "Remove from <BR>
the list" button -- but you get bad performance reviews if you press it too <BR>
often. I was interrupted _during_ my 8-hour shift by my supervisor for <BR>
pushing the "remove" button _twice_. <BR>
<BR>
If a human answers and doesn't use the magic words ("Place me on your <BR>
permanent 'do not solicit' list") the number stays on the active call list <BR>
forever. Best answering machine message I heard was "This is 555-5555. No one <BR>
will answer this phone unless you give your name and the reason for your <BR>
call."<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:57:12 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing guess<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't figure out the attributions so I snipped them-- sorry-- I think<BR>
this is a conversation between J. Snead and Leonard but I'm not sure who<BR>
said what...<BR>
<BR>
>>> In a decade or less it will likely be rather easy for a government with<BR>
an interest in such things to check every phonecall and email message in<BR>
their nation for certain key words and phrases.<BR>
>>><BR>
<snip><BR>
>> Sorry, but there's strong evidence that this *is* being done *now*.  As<BR>
for "false alarms", in the Intel business they *prefer* false alarms to<BR>
missing significant messages. And I guess you aren't aware that the NSA is<BR>
one of the big backers of AI for speech recognition and parsing "natural<BR>
language".<BR>
>> And don't forget that any messages (voice or text) that get flagged will<BR>
be *complete*, not partial, and the human they get referred to can scan<BR>
printed text very fast. Ditto for intercepted audio. There are gizmos that<BR>
can speed up speech 5 times or more *without* distorting it.<BR>
>><BR>
> Hmm, I had heard rumors that all international email and phone calls were<BR>
being checked, but they may well now have the capacity to check everything<BR>
(shudder).<BR>
><BR>
ALL international email and calls?  Even to friendly countries like Japan<BR>
and Canada?<BR>
<BR>
A friend of mine appends a word salad containing the words "bin-laden",<BR>
"bomb", "sarin", etc to his sig file just to make sure he wastes the NSA's<BR>
time to the max.<BR>
<BR>
I just feel sorry for whatever poor sot gets stuck listening to my phone<BR>
calls to Japan:<BR>
<BR>
"And how is Natsumi liking Junior High School?  Does she have any boyfriends<BR>
yet?  Oh, they tease her about her brown hair... yeah, I hated that too..."<BR>
<BR>
"So, Shinji did WHAT?  Yeesh, no wonder you dumped him.  Let me tell you<BR>
about Hiroshi's latest insanity..."<BR>
<BR>
"You're kidding.  My ex-mother in law did that too!"<BR>
<BR>
"Toru-chan is still reading those bishounen mangas?  You know he kinda sorta<BR>
looks like one... we better keep ikki away from him..."<BR>
<BR>
"Yes, Go, I really do think that it's significant she changed her name from<BR>
Akiko to Akira..."<BR>
<BR>
Can you IMAGINE how deadly boring a job this is?  Listening to the minutiae<BR>
of complete strangers' romantic and family lives just because there MIGHT be<BR>
some piece of information being exchanged that is even remotely related to<BR>
intelligence?<BR>
<BR>
The mind frankly boggles.  And boggles again...<BR>
<BR>
I can just see some poor idiot throwing up his hands after one of my calls<BR>
saying "This is NOT what I spent xx months learning Japanese in order to<BR>
listen to!!!"<BR>
<BR>
I have very little to hide so while it annoys me to think that someone might<BR>
be listening in on my confidences, I can't help but be amused at how boring<BR>
it must be.  Such a job is its own punishment.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:59:35 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
It was previously written:<BR>
<BR>
> > How about a laser as a silent weapon?  It seems to me that,<BR>
> > under Striker and/or Mercenary, visible light lasers had a<BR>
> > signature DM, but X-ray lasers did not.  If that is correct,<BR>
> > what was the signature?  Light diffusion or sound? Does the<BR>
> > laser make any sound, either with the air or in the weapon<BR>
> > itself (hmm bzzt! frch! or something?)?<BR>
><BR>
> Realistically, probably a flash of superheated air and an explosive crack.<BR>
> Then again, realistically range for an X-ray laser in air is only a couple<BR>
> of meters, air is opaque to X-rays.<BR>
<BR>
OK, so I finally found some actual numbers (National Advisory Committe for<BR>
Aeronautics Technical Note 2406, "Application of X-ray Absorption to<BR>
Measurement of Small Air-Density Gradients", July 1951) on the absorption of<BR>
x-rays in air.<BR>
<BR>
The intensity of the x-rays will follow I/I0 = exp(-k * x). For 4.9 kV<BR>
x-rays, we have k = 6.57 ft^-1 (hey, it was the 50's (heh heh, imagine a<BR>
science-fiction RPG written in the 50's)), so that after 1 foot we have I/I0<BR>
= exp(-6.57), which is fairly small. At 10 feet we have I/I0 = exp(-65.7),<BR>
which is even smaller. This is why the report cited above uses a distance of<BR>
4 inches from source to detector.<BR>
<BR>
So we are fairly safe from x-rays from the sun, and the lasers from your<BR>
Traveller ship will probably not propagate very far in air. Fire them on the<BR>
ground at your own risk.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:02:35 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing guess<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As for "false alarms", in the Intel business they *prefer* false alarms to<BR>
> missing significant messages.<BR>
<BR>
Is this the chip-making business?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 17:26:47 +0000<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Last Update: Keith Supplements<BR>
<BR>
Ok fellow TML'ers...the moment we've all been waiting for has arrived. I<BR>
just loaded ALL the remaining  Keith Supplement orders into my car and they<BR>
will mail once the post-office opens in the morning (15 hours from now to<BR>
be exact). All US orders should be in their owners hands by mid-month at<BR>
the latest (sooner for those who paid extra for first-class postage of<BR>
course). All non-US orders will take 6-8 weeks to arrive (except again for<BR>
the handful of folks who paid for the first-class overseas postage).<BR>
<BR>
I want to thank everyone one last time for their patience. This was a<BR>
monumental undertaking for me, and believe me, I am celebrating its<BR>
conclusion tonight over some Irish Red.<BR>
<BR>
I intend to get around to updating the website tomorrow, but in the<BR>
meantime, let me just state that I have 23 sets left (no individual books).<BR>
The ordering info remains the same for ordering sets and can still be found<BR>
on the website ( www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html ). If you want a<BR>
set, then get it soon, because once the remaining ones are gone, that's it.<BR>
This whole project from initial talks with Andrew to completion today has<BR>
consumed nearly two years of almost every spare moment of my life and there<BR>
will be no second printing - from me at least (if someone wants to buy the<BR>
copyright from me and do it themselves then I wish 'em lots 'o luck).<BR>
<BR>
Lastly, I want to thank the individuals who helped and contributed to the<BR>
effort in various ways and without whom the whole project would most likely<BR>
have never seen the light of day. They are:<BR>
<BR>
Marc Miller - who was extremely helpful in every way from permission for a<BR>
limited printing to original Keith artwork.<BR>
Andrew Keith - a great and talented guy as these books of his serve to<BR>
showcase. I just wish I could have known him longer and that he was here to<BR>
see the end result.<BR>
Bill Keith - for allowing me the use of his artwork and for taking the time<BR>
out of his busy writing schedule to autograph 50 of the Calendars.<BR>
Mark Cook - for all the starship deckplans that appear in Letter of Marque.<BR>
Mark moved mountains to get the work to me in a timely fashion and I<BR>
appreciate all his efforts.<BR>
Jimmy Simpson - the real person behind the Reaver's Deep sourcebook. Jimmy<BR>
did wonders bringing the scattered source material together into a coherent<BR>
whole and I thank him for making this pet project of mine a reality.<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen - the guy who put the finishing touch to the Reaver's<BR>
Deep sourcebook with the contribution of his excellent insert adventure<BR>
"Hellion's Hoard." Thanks again Hans.<BR>
TML'ers - your money, patience, and encouragement ultimately made it<BR>
happen, and I hope you enjoy the Supplements for years to come.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, that about covers it I hope.<BR>
<BR>
Cordially,<BR>
Paul Sanders<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:32:23 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
>Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
>team.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
as "overkill"...<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 16:13:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: We are komink....<BR>
<BR>
At 11:56 PM 3/1/2000 +0000, Dom wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"But first, please can you give a short interview to this nice man <BR>
>from the press?"<BR>
<BR>
On advice from my p/e/n/g/u/i/n.. attorney, I wish to invoke my Fifth<BR>
Amendment right avoid incriminating myself.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1991<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1992</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/2/00 11:11:09 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 1992<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
RE: Famile Spofulam<BR>
re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Gearhead alert!<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Last Update: Keith Supplements<BR>
RE: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Last Update: Keith Supplements<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Computing guess<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: The Universal Bar Profile<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
Vargr skin?<BR>
Silent firearms and Starship Troopers<BR>
Silent firearms and Starship Troopers<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:55:26 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
David P. Summers writes:<BR>
> At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> >Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
> >team.... ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
> as "overkill"...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps its a really tough man. ;)  More seriously, I think the suggestion<BR>
was that a 'target-rich environment' had been found.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:02:44 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> >Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
> >team.... ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
> as "overkill"...<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps so, but it certainly would draw attention away from the recon<BR>
team.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Besides, I've spent 16 years in the military (8 in the Regular Army, 8<BR>
in the Louisiana Army National Guard).  There's no such _thing_ as<BR>
"overkill"!<BR>
<BR>
In our Traveller group, one of the PCs is an Instellarms executive.  I<BR>
feel certain that he would agree that "overkill" is an oxymoronic phrase<BR>
(especially since he gets commissions on sales of munitions to the 3I).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:03:28 -0800<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
On Wednesday, March 01, 2000 9:23 PM<BR>
Jesse DeGraff said,<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, the crossbows themselves are by no means entirely silent.  It's<BR>
hard to<BR>
> describe their sound even though I owned a Barnett Wildcat years ago.<BR>
> 150lbs+ of draw will do that :)<BR>
<BR>
I was under the impression that most of the noise from modern crossbows<BR>
comes from the materials used and the speed of the string when fired.<BR>
If you where willing to use a lower poundage so that you could use<BR>
lighter materials for the bow arms and the string you could probably<BR>
make it as quiet as a traditional bow, of course your air speed would<BR>
drop a lot.<BR>
<BR>
The gentleman that used to cut my hair told me a story of how back when<BR>
he was in the navy he got bored and built himself a crossbow using the<BR>
leaf springs from a jeep.  He had to use some angle iron for the bolt to<BR>
take the strain.  He only got to fire it once.  He took it to the galley<BR>
because it had nice solid bulkheads and then fired it through several<BR>
lined up garbage cans.  Apparently the marines came running to the noise<BR>
of his bolt ricocheting off the bulkheads and took his toy from him.<BR>
<BR>
For a good silent weapon against unarmored people I like using a sling<BR>
with a wet clay bullet.  You don't loose the kinetic energy from having<BR>
it bounce off the target that way.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
=======<BR>
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."  - Napoleon Bonaparte<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 17:45:39 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
Everybody duck, run, and cover, she's BAAAAaaaaaacckk!<BR>
<BR>
[[hurridly donning armor & loading weapons]]<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Katharine<BR>
> Whitchurch<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 6:31 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Famile Spofulam<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Weeee're backie-wackie, an an an an an weeeeere glaaaad that<BR>
> everybody-wodie<BR>
> miiiiised us (an an an weeeee thinkie-winkie that our<BR>
> eeeee-ceeeeeeeeeee-emmmmmm miiiiiiight have had something-wumthing to do<BR>
> wiiiith it).<BR>
><BR>
> An an an there's talk about barsie-warsies. Weeee weckon that a baaar is a<BR>
> pretty-witty neeeato place. You know-know-knowie-know that you<BR>
> can take alll<BR>
> the pweettty lights, an an an the refridgerator induuuuction<BR>
> coilsie-woilsie<BR>
> an an an all that niiiicely machined glassie-wassie, an an an the<BR>
> coimputer-wuter out of the aiiiiiir conditioning an an ana n an build a<BR>
> particle-warticle accelerator.<BR>
><BR>
> Weeee did that laaaaaaast year, an an an an we took out the haberdashery<BR>
> shop next dooooooor. Uncie-wunkie Hengie had to payyyyy lots of<BR>
> money-wunnie<BR>
> cwedit-wedits to the ooooowners, but noooooo-one got hurtie-wurite.<BR>
> Wellllll, hurtie-wurtie baaaad enough to actually dieee-wieee.<BR>
><BR>
> Your loving cousin,<BR>
><BR>
> Ditzie<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:47:57 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
I would imagine that a high powered laser such as a weapon<BR>
would make a significant crack as the air it is shooting<BR>
through superheats and expands rapidly.  Kind of like a<BR>
lightning bolt.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
<BR>
At 10:52 AM -0800 3/2/2000, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>OK, a crossbow isn't silent -- but no one has opposed my<BR>
>position that it looks cool.<BR>
><BR>
>How about a laser as a silent weapon?  It seems to me that,<BR>
>under Striker and/or Mercenary, visible light lasers had a<BR>
>signature DM, but X-ray lasers did not.  If that is correct,<BR>
>what was the signature?  Light diffusion or sound? Does the<BR>
>laser make any sound, either with the air or in the weapon<BR>
>itself (hmm bzzt! frch! or something?)?<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
>http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 21:45:55 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@mail.pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Gearhead alert!<BR>
<BR>
At 07:55 am 2/29/00 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
>For the gearhead who has everything:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.smad.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/store/bookstore/index2.html?<BR>
E+smad<BR>
><BR>
>Microcosm has taken their bookstore online. They specialize in<BR>
technical<BR>
<BR>
	Curse you! I already spend too much money on reference books ...<BR>
<BR>
- -- Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft<BR>
product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:49:34 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
At 11:03 AM -0800 3/2/2000, Thing wrote:<BR>
>For a good silent weapon against unarmored people I like using a sling<BR>
>with a wet clay bullet.  You don't loose the kinetic energy from having<BR>
>it bounce off the target that way.<BR>
<BR>
You lose kinetic energy in deforming the clay.  Energy is conserved, so<BR>
if you have a deforming projectile, you lose some in the clay which<BR>
doesn't get transferred to the target.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:06:03 -0500<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Last Update: Keith Supplements<BR>
<BR>
At 05:26 PM 03/02/2000 +0000, Paul wrote:<BR>
>Ok fellow TML'ers...the moment we've all been waiting for has arrived. I<BR>
>just loaded ALL the remaining  Keith Supplement orders into my car and they<BR>
>will mail once the post-office opens in the morning (15 hours from now to<BR>
>be exact). ..<BR>
<BR>
Hoody-Hoo!!!<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:17:24 -0500<BR>
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@mail.pcisys.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
At 05:45 pm 3/2/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Everybody duck, run, and cover, she's BAAAAaaaaaacckk!<BR>
<BR>
	Why bother running? You'll only die tired ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	Besides, Ditzie's not a threat to her loyal fans and customers. Now,<BR>
the guys down in Legal and Marketing ...<BR>
<BR>
- -- Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft<BR>
product.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:23:43 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
...<BR>
>The intensity of the x-rays will follow I/I0 = exp(-k * x). For 4.9 kV<BR>
>x-rays, we have k = 6.57 ft^-1 (hey, it was the 50's (heh heh, imagine a<BR>
>science-fiction RPG written in the 50's)), so that after 1 foot we have I/I0<BR>
<BR>
  GURPS Atomic Horror, anyone? :><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 21:16:24 -0600<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Last Update: Keith Supplements<BR>
<BR>
J. Paul Sanders posted:<BR>
><BR>
> Ok fellow TML'ers...the moment we've all been waiting for has arrived.<BR>
I<BR>
> just loaded ALL the remaining  Keith Supplement orders into my car and<BR>
they<BR>
> will mail once the post-office opens in the morning (15 hours from now<BR>
to<BR>
> be exact). All US orders should be in their owners hands by mid-month<BR>
at<BR>
> the latest (sooner for those who paid extra for first-class postage of<BR>
<BR>
> course).<BR>
<BR>
YIPPEE!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Paul!<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 03:35:08 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:17:24 -0500, "David J. Golden"<BR>
<goldendj@mail.pcisys.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>At 05:45 pm 3/2/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>Everybody duck, run, and cover, she's BAAAAaaaaaacckk!<BR>
><BR>
>	Why bother running? You'll only die tired ...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>	Besides, Ditzie's not a threat to her loyal fans and customers. Now,<BR>
>the guys down in Legal and Marketing ...<BR>
><BR>
There is always too much cannon fodder in Legal & Marketing. What's<BR>
that punch line? Ah yes, "...a good start."  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
"'Need' now means wanting someone else's money. 'Greed' means wanting to keep<BR>
 your own. 'Compassion' is when a politician arranges the transfer."<BR>
                                     -Joseph Sobran<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:50:40 -0500<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Computing guess<BR>
<BR>
>ALL international email and calls?  Even to friendly countries like Japan<BR>
>and Canada?<BR>
><BR>
>A friend of mine appends a word salad containing the words "bin-laden",<BR>
>"bomb", "sarin", etc to his sig file just to make sure he wastes the NSA's<BR>
>time to the max.<BR>
><BR>
>I just feel sorry for whatever poor sot gets stuck listening to my phone<BR>
>calls to Japan:<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The point is, no one listens to them, Kiri, unless you say the magic words,<BR>
and the language is fairly irrelevant since the computers are multi-lingual<BR>
(for this purpose anyway.) As for your friend, there's a movement afoot to<BR>
tie up resources doing this. I suspect that it's a waste of time. I wouldn't<BR>
be surprised to find that such messages are further parsed out after the<BR>
human reviewer wastes time reviewing one or two from the same address. On<BR>
the other hand he might just be accumulating all kinds of interest on the<BR>
part of multiple government agencies. Personally, I'd rather be the fish who<BR>
makes no wake, than the splasher who gets a lot of unwanted attention.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:49:09 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/3/00 2:10:32 AM !!!First Boot!!!, jdegraff@pacbell.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Everybody duck, run, and cover, she's BAAAAaaaaaacckk!<BR>
 <BR>
 [[hurridly donning armor & loading weapons]]<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
or to quote Jeff Daniels as John Adams in "1776", "Oh good G-D!" ...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 00:09:01 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Weeee're backie-wackie, an an an an an weeeeere glaaaad that everybody-wodie<BR>
> miiiiised us (an an an weeeee thinkie-winkie that our<BR>
> eeeee-ceeeeeeeeeee-emmmmmm miiiiiiight have had something-wumthing to do<BR>
> wiiiith it).<BR>
> <BR>
> An an an there's talk about barsie-warsies. Weeee weckon that a baaar is a<BR>
> pretty-witty neeeato place. You know-know-knowie-know that you can take alll<BR>
> the pweettty lights, an an an the refridgerator induuuuction coilsie-woilsie<BR>
> an an an all that niiiicely machined glassie-wassie, an an an the<BR>
> coimputer-wuter out of the aiiiiiir conditioning an an ana n an build a<BR>
> particle-warticle accelerator.<BR>
> <BR>
> Weeee did that laaaaaaast year, an an an an we took out the haberdashery<BR>
> shop next dooooooor. Uncie-wunkie Hengie had to payyyyy lots of money-wunnie<BR>
> cwedit-wedits to the ooooowners, but noooooo-one got hurtie-wurite.<BR>
> Wellllll, hurtie-wurtie baaaad enough to actually dieee-wieee.<BR>
> <BR>
> Your loving cousin,<BR>
> <BR>
> Ditzie<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
Lord, I sure hope Ditzie doesn't continue to speak in this fashion when she<BR>
gets older.......<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 23:36:25 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> In a message dated 3/3/00 2:10:32 AM !!!First Boot!!!, jdegraff@pacbell.net<BR>
> writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> << Everybody duck, run, and cover, she's BAAAAaaaaaacckk!<BR>
> <BR>
>  [[hurridly donning armor & loading weapons]]<BR>
>   >><BR>
> <BR>
> or to quote Jeff Daniels as John Adams in "1776", "Oh good G-D!" ...:-)<BR>
<BR>
That's _William_ Daniels, sir, at least on the original soundtrack and<BR>
in the movie (as I listen once more to the "1776" Broadway soundtrack on<BR>
CD...).<BR>
<BR>
Note that this musical can tie in (as a stretch) with the "Interstellar<BR>
Democracy" thread, with some choice Adams quotes from "1776":<BR>
<BR>
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a<BR>
disgrace; that two are called a law firm; and that three or more become<BR>
a Congress!"<BR>
<BR>
"Good God, consider yourselves fortunate that you have John Adams to<BR>
abuse, for no sane man would tolerate it!"<BR>
<BR>
"Dear God!  For one solid year they [the Continental Congress] have been<BR>
sitting here, a whole year, doing nothing!"<BR>
<BR>
"We piddle, twiddle, and resolve, nothing's ever solved in foul, fetid,<BR>
fuming, foggy, filthy Philadelphia!"<BR>
<BR>
"Fat George has declared us in rebellion.  Why in bloody Hell can't<BR>
they?!?"<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  I can just imagine Cleon Zhunastu and his associates, trying to<BR>
decide who will write the text of the Warrant of Restoration, as per the<BR>
song "But, Mr. Adams", from "1776."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:01:20 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
>On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
><BR>
> HERF is High Energy Radio Frequency. It's directional to some extent,<BR>
> but not very "narrow".<BR>
><BR>
> Explaining the difference without pictures or being able to "wave my<BR>
> hands" to illustrate is beyond me...<BR>
<BR>
Let me try.<BR>
<BR>
EMP is non-directional, because it is generated by an atomic explosion.<BR>
One can't "direct" EMP except in the way one shapes an explosive charge, and<BR>
that would require something that won't just get vapourized by the blast.<BR>
<BR>
HERF is merely a high power radio transmitter, and as such can make use of<BR>
directional aerials in the same way that any other directional radio<BR>
transmitter can.<BR>
<BR>
What this means is that the transmission can be made stronger in particular<BR>
directions, by placing "directors" which are sized and positioned to<BR>
resonate with the transmitted frequency, and basically re-broadcast it, and<BR>
"reflectors",<BR>
which are sized and positioned to cause the wave to be reflected back off of<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
In both cases there is energy loss, so you lose total transmission power,<BR>
and the more directional you make the beam, the greater the loss.<BR>
<BR>
Also, there are "lobes" of the transmission going in other directions, as<BR>
you never completely prevent it from going in all direections.<BR>
<BR>
One way of thinking of it is to take a child's drawing of a daisy, and<BR>
imagine that the petals are the lobes which represent the signal strength in<BR>
a particular direction. Make one of the petals ten to twenty times  bigger<BR>
than all the others and you get an idea of what the signal strength diagram<BR>
of a directional transmitter looks like.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:56:40 -0500<BR>
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Universal Bar Profile<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> sez,<BR>
<BR>
>>UBP: Universal Bar Profile<BR>
>>by Glenn Grant<BR>
><BR>
>Glenn, mind if this goes up on the Silly Era?<BR>
<BR>
No problemo.  I keep hoping to find the time to put together my own<BR>
website, but it just never seems to get done...<BR>
<BR>
Funny thing with the UBP write-up: it started off entirely as a joke, but<BR>
the more I worked on it, the more it seemed like it might actually be a<BR>
useful IMTU.  I wouldn't present the UBP to the players, though; I'd just<BR>
use it as a creative nudge for myself.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
<BR>
 + GMG +<BR>
<BR>
PS: I heard tell that _GT: Starports_ is expected back from the printers<BR>
next week. Woohoo!<BR>
<BR>
               Glenn Grant  <neo@total.net><BR>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_<BR>
          Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant<BR>
           now in hardcover from Tor Books<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 01:37:24 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If a human answers and doesn't use the magic words ("Place me on your<BR>
> permanent 'do not solicit' list") the number stays on the active call list<BR>
> forever. Best answering machine message I heard was "This is 555-5555. No one<BR>
> will answer this phone unless you give your name and the reason for your<BR>
> call."<BR>
<BR>
http://www.phonebutler.com/<BR>
<BR>
A little attachment you plug your phone line into.<BR>
If you answer and realize you've got atelemarketer,<BR>
you push a key on your phone and the 'butler' comes<BR>
on. In a very proper, reserved and calm voice, British<BR>
accented of course, it says all the magic words for you.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:30:05 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Courtesy on NIST, I finally found some better data on absorption of x-rays<BR>
in air. Kristin Miller says that a 1 MeV photon is just about right for<BR>
zapping other ships in space. From the NIST tables (lots of good stuff at<BR>
http://physlab.nist.gov) we get as a SWAG that for the Miller laser in air<BR>
we get roughly I = I0 * exp(-x/300) (where x is the range in meters), so the<BR>
range (1/e point) of one of these lasers in air is about 300 m. Since we're<BR>
putting MJ into these beams, this should be fairly fun to watch.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:07:54 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-02 12:46:51 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The computer dials every number in an exchange. If modem/fax/etc. <BR>
> answers, the computer removes it from the list. <BR>
<BR>
Wimps. Over here, they immediately fax the number if they detect one.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:45:12 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:50:33 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (From my 8 hours as a telemarketer -- they lied to me when I was hired . . . <BR>
> I was told I would _NOT_ be doing cold calls, but would be calling people who <BR>
> had "expressed an interest in hearing about the product" It didn't take long <BR>
> to figure out what was going on. I took 3 days training and then quit at the <BR>
> end of my first shift.)<BR>
> <BR>
> The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
What about cell phone numbers?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Nothing is impossible for anyone impervious to reason<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 06:48:55 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
At 22:31 02.03.00 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
><BR>
>I heard when this was handed out by a student as part of a science project,<BR>
>the majority of people supported the call for banning it, and only one<BR>
>person actually knew what it was<BR>
<BR>
Were those poeple ... other students? Or people from the streets?<BR>
<BR>
Still wondering about U.S. econmic success (and being a bit jealous... :-)<BR>
).<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 07:47:37 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Vargr skin?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:41 02.03.00 -0800, Glenn Grant wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Excellent!  I would just note that the Vargr are known to have<BR>
>fight bars -- bars where you go specifically for the purpose of<BR>
>getting into a bar fight.  Usually no one gets seriously hurt. <BR>
>Human skin is not as tough as Vargr skin, of course, nor do<BR>
>humans have claws, so it's worth perfecting some good blocks and<BR>
>dodges before visiting a Vargr fight bar.  <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Well, from the material I have (mainly GT and some MT stuuf, as well as<BR>
German CT) I always concluded that conoical Vargr are _less_ tough than<BR>
humans. Am I completely wrong here?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:14:26 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Silent firearms and Starship Troopers<BR>
<BR>
> At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> >Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
> >team.... ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
> as "overkill"...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I don't know. If that man is a teleporting terrorist with precog powers,<BR>
or surrounded by several division of Mobile Infantry...<BR>
<BR>
So, how about the Starship Troopers animated series for kids ?<BR>
Anyone seen it ?<BR>
It's just started over here, playing Staurday mornings. Reasonably<BR>
impressive, though it hasn't had much chance to develop yet<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:14:26 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Silent firearms and Starship Troopers<BR>
<BR>
> At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> >Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
> >team.... ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
> as "overkill"...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I don't know. If that man is a teleporting terrorist with precog powers,<BR>
or surrounded by several division of Mobile Infantry...<BR>
<BR>
So, how about the Starship Troopers animated series for kids ?<BR>
Anyone seen it ?<BR>
It's just started over here, playing Staurday mornings. Reasonably<BR>
impressive, though it hasn't had much chance to develop yet<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 07:37:42 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
At 23:22 02.03.00 +1000, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Ingo Heinscher <BR>
>> >as did Napoleon.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> IMHO not a good example. The young French Republic was already dead when<BR>
>> he rose to power. (Robespierre was good symptom for this, I think.)<BR>
><BR>
>The French (First) Republic had a problem - the people running the show all<BR>
>wanted an oligarchy, rather than a democracy.  <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Just what I meant.<BR>
<BR>
>Robespierre, and the other Terrorists were the people who did what was<BR>
>necessary for the revolution to survive.  <BR>
<BR>
Well, it was especially necessary for the *revolutionaries* to survive...<BR>
other European power's gouvernments wantet them dead, naturally. <BR>
<BR>
>There _were_ abuses and foul-ups,<BR>
>but on the whole the Terror was unavoidable.  And the Terrorists killed a<BR>
>whole bunch less people than the counter-revolutionaries did.  But that is<BR>
>almost always true. <BR>
<BR>
Well, this leads to some intersting questions. What worth is a democtracy<BR>
if you are forced to kill the "freed" population? What we can learn from<BR>
history here is IMHO that a revolution by force is not the best way to<BR>
establish a functioning free society. (Look at Eastern Europe in the late<BR>
20th century... a good example for peaceful revolutions.)<BR>
<BR>
>So to bring it back to Traveller:  when autocracies are overthrown, there<BR>
>are usually several different possible outcomes.  It can take several<BR>
>years, and a period of instability and civil war to resolve them.  <BR>
<BR>
Unless the various pressure groups have at least one strong interest they<BR>
all share. In the case of a minor state at the border of a newly-foring and<BR>
expanding Imperium, the very Imerpium might be the one that evereyone fears.<BR>
<BR>
>he US<BR>
>had to replace its original constitution about ten years after the<BR>
>revolution, and it was one of the luckier cases.<BR>
<BR>
Really? Didn't know that. What's the story?<BR>
<BR>
>> >Single party governments are another form of this shill.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> So _that_ is good example. Significant resistance against such a try is a<BR>
>> good sign of a healthy republic. Healthy means: People _care_ about their<BR>
>> republic. If they don't, it's just what you said: The republic will<BR>
>> vanish.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, there are relatively legitimate, if temporary cases for one party<BR>
>states.  (Incidentally, "single party governments" merely means that they<BR>
>are not coalitions.)  After the Civil War, the Republican Party government<BR>
>placed serious constraints on the ability of the Democrats to engage in<BR>
>political activity, at least in the South.  Effectively, this made the USA<BR>
>a one party state - the main opposition was banned, or at least crippled,<BR>
>for several years - _and_it_was_entirely_justified_ (IMHO, of course).<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
Okay, that was not the thing I was thinking about. As a German, I had some<BR>
other "single party rule" in mind, you can imagine.... The U.S. Republicans<BR>
never _forbade_ the Democratic Party, did they?<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, no, democracy is about rule by 'the people'.  In real-world states<BR>
>> it tends to be combined with capitalism (which is not intrinsically<BR>
>> related) into a sort of democracy/plutocracy.<BR>
<BR>
Which is true for any government. Even an autocrat with anti-capitalist<BR>
attitides (like Castro?) has to remember the economy and do things that are<BR>
good for the large corporations (or combinates, or<BR>
"People-Owned-Enterprises" (literal translation of old GDR expression)).<BR>
Not only those things, of course. As won't any other wise gouvernment. <BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> Economic planning(non-market economy), uhmm, well, _that_ is one thing I<BR>
>> understand that it requires a quick communication. I mean, they were<BR>
>> inflexible on 20th century earth, with nearly.instaneous communication...<BR>
><BR>
>Well, on a planetary/system level you have the quick communication.  On an<BR>
>interstellar level, you have a finite number of ships hauling a finite<BR>
>number of cargoes.  Any shipping line will have to keep track of where its<BR>
>ships are, where they are going, and (in broad terms) what they are<BR>
>hauling.  <BR>
<BR>
Sure, but in a market econmy there is usually more than one planner. Which<BR>
means, if someone is wrong, the desaster is not that bad, since the others<BR>
will possibly have planned otherwise. If you want, market econmy seems to<BR>
be more fault tolerant.<BR>
<BR>
And there is of course one thing one must not forget: A market econmy has<BR>
quite an efficient way of dstributing ressources: It gives more<BR>
ressources/luxury goods/whatyouwant to those who wisely use their existing<BR>
ressources (be it labour, money, or owned land) in the mos efficient way.<BR>
<BR>
In a planning econmy, there usually is no such "awarding" of the fittest.<BR>
In contrast to the above, politics are much more important to climb the<BR>
career ladder or being awarded otherwise. Perhaps even intrigues.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>In any case, there are huge planned economies in the Traveller universe. <BR>
>They're called the megacorporations.  <BR>
<BR>
:-) <BR>
Very good point. But OTOH, there must be some reason why small far traders<BR>
still survive in the 3I... remember the stories about LSP<BR>
low-level-executives fighting each other on any market until findig out<BR>
that they are leading branches of the some corp... But sure, this example<BR>
is one to show that long-range planning works in the TU. Even though it has<BR>
its inefficiencies.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't see that the government would have any problem trading with the 3I.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on how that gouvernment/society came to the conclusion that<BR>
planning econmy is their way. If it is a question of ideolgy, and<BR>
(BOOLEAN!) freedom of press works, this _would_ be a problem. But in any<BR>
other case, I must aggree, they would have no problem at all.<BR>
<BR>
> As for being allowed to survive, well, <BR>
>(a) the 3I deals with lots of societies (human and alien), including some<BR>
>with quite odd, if not completely incomprehensible economies, and <BR>
<BR>
Well, that probably depends on the minor states in each GM's TU. The 3I in<BR>
MTU deals with its client states, and to a certain degree with the other<BR>
major powers. Vargr, Hivers, and Aslan seem to have market econmies. As do<BR>
the Zhodani, at least to a certain degree. I assume that for most minor<BR>
interstellar powers, this is also true.<BR>
<BR>
>(b) seems to be quite pragmatic, rather than being ideologically driven.  <BR>
<BR>
:-) <BR>
One could call this pragmatism their "ideology". They like it if you can<BR>
make a profit out of it or increase your power. If it threatens their power<BR>
(or successfully claims to) it will be removed, I'd say.<BR>
<BR>
>If the client state behaves itself, it might be tolerated, particularly if<BR>
>it's keeping the Aslan/Vargr/Solomani/Zhodani/K'kree etc out.  The problem<BR>
>would most likely be when some megacorp starts getting upset that it isn't<BR>
>getting the red carpet being rolled out.  Even then, the megacorp might not<BR>
>be able to get the Imperium to intervene, and might have to subvert the<BR>
>naughty state itself.  That's a whole different kettle of fish.<BR>
<BR>
Well, IMTU, the MecaCorps are owned by those who are in political power in<BR>
the 3I. That would mean they are identical, so no problem for the MegaCorps<BR>
to "make the Imperium do what they want". Of course, if the local<BR>
Archduke/Dukes have no interest in the respectigve MegaCorp, this might be<BR>
different, true.<BR>
<BR>
>> >Another possibility is that a revolution occurred in an existing<BR>
>> >autocratic state, and spread, possibly at bayonet point, to all the old<BR>
>> >state's worlds.<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Alternatively, a democratic planetary government might start crusading,<BR>
>> >and spread its form of government to neighbouring worlds, at least<BR>
>> >sometimes by force.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I thought about these two approaches before. I came to the conclusion<BR>
>> that in such a case, the Imperium would very likely have intervened,<BR>
> <BR>
>The key words here are "very likely".  That is, "probably but not<BR>
>necessarily".  If someone else more worrying was bothering the Imperium at<BR>
>the time, the new state might manage to get off the ground.  And if it is<BR>
>friendly enough to the Imperium, and lets the megacorps have their way with<BR>
>it, then maybe it gets classified as "Mostly Harmless".<BR>
<BR>
Sure. It _is_ possible. But for my particular campaign sector(s), it is<BR>
unprobable the 3I had been busy at the time of the "crusade" starting or<BR>
the "revolution" taking place. It is in my own Glimmerdrift Reaches and<BR>
Crucis Margin Sectors, where the Imperium has no other external affairs<BR>
than just those minor states.<BR>
So I think it is easier for the Imp to accept an already existing state<BR>
when its borders reach the region.<BR>
<BR>
>> >Hmm.  Thinks:  sooner or later we'll get a satisfactory scalable<BR>
>> >political/economic/military simulator.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Rather later, I fear. The Illuminati will surpress this as long as it<BR>
>> doesn't fit in their plans. Believe me. I tried to program one.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, it's pretty complex.  <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Damn! I forgot the smiley here!<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1993</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 1993<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
RE: Blake 7 (Was Imperium vs ST Federation)<BR>
Re: Blake 7 (Was Imperium vs ST Federation)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
Govornment Interest<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
RE: Blake 7 (Was Imperium vs ST Federation)<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Computing quess<BR>
Re: SEC: NUDE, NUDE, NUDE<BR>
Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide<BR>
Re: Computing guess<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 23:29:06 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:50:33 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (From my 8 hours as a telemarketer -- they lied to me when I was hired . . . <BR>
> I was told I would _NOT_ be doing cold calls, but would be calling people who <BR>
> had "expressed an interest in hearing about the product" It didn't take long <BR>
> to figure out what was going on. I took 3 days training and then quit at the <BR>
> end of my first shift.)<BR>
> <BR>
> The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
What about cell phone numbers?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Nothing is impossible for anyone impervious to reason<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 23:47:54 -0800<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
>Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
...<BR>
>And there is of course one thing one must not forget: A market econmy has<BR>
>quite an efficient way of dstributing ressources: It gives more<BR>
>ressources/luxury goods/whatyouwant to those who wisely use their existing<BR>
>ressources (be it labour, money, or owned land) in the mos efficient way.<BR>
<BR>
  While I happen to feel that capitalism is a very productive system (and<BR>
especially at smaller scales), I really wouldn't go so far as to describe<BR>
it as efficient per se without some serious cautionary remarks. Western<BR>
quasi-capitalism has some real dysfunctions even if it were as MBA's wish<BR>
it were; I'm sure that the OTU can add somethign to that.<BR>
<BR>
  And as for the megacorp divisions that fight each other and then realize<BR>
that they're all under the same umbrella - what makes you think that stops<BR>
the fighting? :><BR>
<BR>
        Steven Hudson<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 22:45:12 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:50:33 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (From my 8 hours as a telemarketer -- they lied to me when I was hired . . . <BR>
> I was told I would _NOT_ be doing cold calls, but would be calling people who <BR>
> had "expressed an interest in hearing about the product" It didn't take long <BR>
> to figure out what was going on. I took 3 days training and then quit at the <BR>
> end of my first shift.)<BR>
> <BR>
> The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
What about cell phone numbers?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Nothing is impossible for anyone impervious to reason<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:12:28 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Blake 7 (Was Imperium vs ST Federation)<BR>
<BR>
Noting the mention of Blakes 7<BR>
Has anyone tried putting together a version of the Liberator, or a<BR>
Federation Pursuit ship. (Probably using an alternate FTL system,<BR>
stutterwarp may work)<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 07:21:58 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Blake 7 (Was Imperium vs ST Federation)<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Noting the mention of Blakes 7<BR>
> Has anyone tried putting together a version of the Liberator, or a<BR>
> Federation Pursuit ship. (Probably using an alternate FTL system,<BR>
> stutterwarp may work)<BR>
<BR>
The Liberator was capable of outgunning AND outrunning anything the Feds<BR>
had. Servalan and Travis had to do a LOT of planning ahead of time to even<BR>
try to trap the Liberator for a few seconds. It also had teleporters, where<BR>
you would have to wear those bracelets to be tracked by Zen.<BR>
<BR>
In lieu of stutterwarp I'd put fold drive in and use disintegrators for<BR>
weaponry. All in all, make it a TL 21 ship and you'd have something special<BR>
on your hands.<BR>
<BR>
"INFORMATION!"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 00:09:35 +1100<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
> Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
> Lord, I sure hope Ditzie doesn't continue to speak in this fashion when<BR>
she<BR>
> gets older.......<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
She is older. Well, somewhat older.<BR>
> From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
> Subject: Re: Interstellar Democracies in YTU<BR>
> Very good point. But OTOH, there must be some reason why small far traders<BR>
> still survive in the 3I... remember the stories about LSP<BR>
> low-level-executives fighting each other on any market until findig out<BR>
> that they are leading branches of the some corp... But sure, this example<BR>
> is one to show that long-range planning works in the TU. Even though it<BR>
has<BR>
> its inefficiencies.<BR>
><BR>
> >I don't see that the government would have any problem trading with the<BR>
3I.<BR>
><BR>
> Depends on how that gouvernment/society came to the conclusion that<BR>
> planning econmy is their way. If it is a question of ideolgy, and<BR>
> (BOOLEAN!) freedom of press works, this _would_ be a problem. But in any<BR>
> other case, I must aggree, they would have no problem at all.<BR>
><BR>
> > As for being allowed to survive, well,<BR>
> >(a) the 3I deals with lots of societies (human and alien), including some<BR>
> >with quite odd, if not completely incomprehensible economies, and<BR>
><BR>
> Well, that probably depends on the minor states in each GM's TU. The 3I in<BR>
> MTU deals with its client states, and to a certain degree with the other<BR>
> major powers. Vargr, Hivers, and Aslan seem to have market econmies. As do<BR>
> the Zhodani, at least to a certain degree. I assume that for most minor<BR>
> interstellar powers, this is also true.<BR>
><BR>
> >(b) seems to be quite pragmatic, rather than being ideologically driven.<BR>
><BR>
> :-)<BR>
> One could call this pragmatism their "ideology". They like it if you can<BR>
> make a profit out of it or increase your power. If it threatens their<BR>
power<BR>
> (or successfully claims to) it will be removed, I'd say.<BR>
><BR>
> >If the client state behaves itself, it might be tolerated, particularly<BR>
if<BR>
> >it's keeping the Aslan/Vargr/Solomani/Zhodani/K'kree etc out.  The<BR>
problem<BR>
> >would most likely be when some megacorp starts getting upset that it<BR>
isn't<BR>
> >getting the red carpet being rolled out.  Even then, the megacorp might<BR>
not<BR>
> >be able to get the Imperium to intervene, and might have to subvert the<BR>
> >naughty state itself.  That's a whole different kettle of fish.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, IMTU, the MecaCorps are owned by those who are in political power in<BR>
> the 3I. That would mean they are identical, so no problem for the<BR>
MegaCorps<BR>
> to "make the Imperium do what they want". Of course, if the local<BR>
> Archduke/Dukes have no interest in the respectigve MegaCorp, this might be<BR>
> different, true.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This is, IMO, partially true. Joe Marquis may own half a million LSP shares,<BR>
and may therefore be inclined to support LSP, but he also owns three hundred<BR>
thousand in General Shipyards, and a cool million in GSBaG, plus of course<BR>
some very old Makhadurin bonds (I love the stories of the Vilani megacorps<BR>
paying Lucan his dividend payments during the Black War, while he makes war<BR>
on the Restored Ziru Sirkaa).<BR>
<BR>
What would be more significant is if Joe Marquis' brother-in-law was the<BR>
Subsector Deputy Veep for LSP, but generally the nobles holdings in all the<BR>
megacorps tend to balance ach other out. Plus of course the idea of<BR>
'noblesse oblige'.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:18:52 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Govornment Interest<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-03 02:11:09 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< On<BR>
 the other hand he might just be accumulating all kinds of interest on the<BR>
 part of multiple government agencies. >><BR>
<BR>
Working for GDW was enough to get most of us on a government list of <BR>
"civilians who show an inordinate interest in military affairs" or so I am <BR>
told . . .<BR>
<BR>
Heaven only knows what lists working for SJ Games has put me on!<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:23:31 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-03 02:11:09 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< A little attachment you plug your phone line into.<BR>
 If you answer and realize you've got atelemarketer,<BR>
 you push a key on your phone and the 'butler' comes<BR>
 on. In a very proper, reserved and calm voice, British<BR>
 accented of course, it says all the magic words for you. >><BR>
<BR>
Nice idea, but my training indicated it didn't count unless said by a living <BR>
human being. Perhaps the relevant regulations have changed in the 3 years <BR>
since I was doing that sort of thing...<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:28:12 EST<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 00-03-03 02:11:09 EST, you write:<BR>
<BR>
<< > The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
 <BR>
 [snip]<BR>
 <BR>
 What about cell phone numbers? >><BR>
<BR>
Dunno. I presume they can be called as easily as any other numbers -- I was <BR>
doing this 3 years ago, so perhaps cell phones weren't as common as they are <BR>
becoming these days. Anybody out there with a cell phone ever been called by <BR>
a telemarketer? <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:48:33 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-03-03 02:11:09 EST, you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> << > The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
>  <BR>
>  [snip]<BR>
>  <BR>
>  What about cell phone numbers? >><BR>
> <BR>
> Dunno. I presume they can be called as easily as any other numbers -- I was <BR>
> doing this 3 years ago, so perhaps cell phones weren't as common as they are <BR>
> becoming these days. Anybody out there with a cell phone ever been called by <BR>
> a telemarketer? <BR>
> <BR>
Not yet, and I sure hope never. Since I pay for airtime on incoming calls,<BR>
I would characterize an unsolicited telemarketing call as theft; petty theft,<BR>
mind you, but theft all the same.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:56:33 -0000 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Blake 7 (Was Imperium vs ST Federation)<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
> Noting the mention of Blakes 7<BR>
> Has anyone tried putting together a version of the Liberator, or a<BR>
> Federation Pursuit ship. (Probably using an alternate FTL system,<BR>
> stutterwarp may work)<BR>
<BR>
Not in Traveller, but I did do this once in an "instant B7"  game<BR>
using the FASA Star Trek RPG and a few slight-of-hands:<BR>
<BR>
1) Use an Enterprise class stats for the Liberator ...  drop  the<BR>
   crew requirements, add up triple the  warp  power  and  divide<BR>
   into 8 energy banks  which  are  regenerated  by  the  impulse<BR>
   drive.  (Thus plenty of energy at the start of ship combat but<BR>
   quickly runs out!)<BR>
2) The B7 Federation uses mainly original ST Klingon ships.<BR>
3) The B7 Federation Pursuit Ships use ST D7-R (hybrid of Klingon<BR>
   D7 ship with Romulan Plasma  weapon)  stripped  of  all  other<BR>
   weapons.<BR>
4) Only the Liberator has transporters (aka teleport).<BR>
<BR>
(Okay, its a bit of a cheat but I only had 10 minuets.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:26:18 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/3/00 5:30:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, wombat@premier.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< r to quote Jeff Daniels as John Adams in "1776", "Oh good G-D!" ...:-)<BR>
 <BR>
 That's _William_ Daniels, >><BR>
<BR>
oops...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:27:15 EST<BR>
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/3/00 5:30:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, wombat@premier.net <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< ObTrav:  I can just imagine Cleon Zhunastu and his associates, trying to<BR>
 decide who will write the text of the Warrant of Restoration, as per the<BR>
 song "But, Mr. Adams", from "1776." >><BR>
<BR>
Oh; we GOT to do this one for the Sily Era...:-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 07:23:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
At 01:37 AM 3/3/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>http://www.phonebutler.com/<BR>
><BR>
>A little attachment you plug your phone line into.<BR>
>If you answer and realize you've got atelemarketer,<BR>
>you push a key on your phone and the 'butler' comes<BR>
>on. In a very proper, reserved and calm voice, British<BR>
>accented of course, it says all the magic words for you.<BR>
<BR>
God, I needed that during the San Francisco mayoral election. We averaged<BR>
five calls a day from candidates and various concerned groups and pollsters.<BR>
Typical conversation.<BR>
<BR>
Pollster: "Good morning sir, may I have a moment of your time to discuss<BR>
the Mayoral run-off?"<BR>
<BR>
Me: "I'm a writer working on a deadline, so.."<BR>
<BR>
P: "Fine, if the election were held today, would you vote for Mayor Willie<BR>
Brown, or Supervisor Tom Amminiano?"<BR>
<BR>
M: "I won't tell you, it's a secret ballot." *click*<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:22:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Everybody duck, run, and cover, she's BAAAAaaaaaacckk!<BR>
><BR>
> [[hurridly donning armor & loading weapons]]<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse<BR>
> :)<BR>
<BR>
Why do I have this image of a campaign for birth control using Ditzie<BR>
as the "poster child"? :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:27:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 02 Mar 2000, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>> > Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I heard when this was handed out by a student as part of a science project,<BR>
>> the majority of people supported the call for banning it, and only one<BR>
>> person actually knew what it was<BR>
><BR>
> I got as far as 'and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice.'<BR>
> before I thought to actually /read/ the 'name' of the chemical.<BR>
<BR>
I guess I've had too much chemistry. I read the name (and knew what it<BR>
was) *immediately*. And that was way back when I *first* encountered<BR>
this text.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:29:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> OK, a crossbow isn't silent -- but no one has opposed my<BR>
> position that it looks cool.<BR>
><BR>
> How about a laser as a silent weapon?  It seems to me that,<BR>
> under Striker and/or Mercenary, visible light lasers had a<BR>
> signature DM, but X-ray lasers did not.  If that is correct,<BR>
> what was the signature?  Light diffusion or sound? Does the<BR>
> laser make any sound, either with the air or in the weapon<BR>
> itself (hmm bzzt! frch! or something?)?<BR>
<BR>
A laser capable of burning a hole in a human body that is deep enough<BR>
to kill, and doing so quickly enough that movement of the target isn't<BR>
a significant factor, has a visual signature somewhere between a<BR>
spotlight and a lightning bolt.<BR>
<BR>
At the energy densities involved, air absorbs enough energy to ionize<BR>
and as the ions recombine they produce light. Lots of light.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:34:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
>> OK, a crossbow isn't silent -- but no one has opposed my<BR>
>> position that it looks cool.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> How about a laser as a silent weapon?  It seems to me that,<BR>
>> under Striker and/or Mercenary, visible light lasers had a<BR>
>> signature DM, but X-ray lasers did not.  If that is correct,<BR>
>> what was the signature?  Light diffusion or sound? Does the<BR>
>> laser make any sound, either with the air or in the weapon<BR>
>> itself (hmm bzzt! frch! or something?)?<BR>
><BR>
> Realistically, probably a flash of superheated air and an explosive crack.  <BR>
> Then again, realistically range for an X-ray laser in air is only a couple<BR>
> of meters, air is opaque to X-rays.<BR>
<BR>
At the required energy levels *air* isn't all that transparent to *light*!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:39:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Shit, THAT idiot...I'd managed to block him from my memory.  Thanks Doug ;)<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav:  Safe gun handling is going to be even MORE of an issue in the<BR>
> future with things like FGMP's :)  If you AD/ND with that thing and it's<BR>
> pointing close to you, you're splash-cooked.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, I've often wanted to take a few grenade happy players out<BR>
somewhere and hand them some practice grenades, have them throw them,<BR>
then measure how far *inside* the danger zone they'd probably be... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:40:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
>>Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
>>team.... ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
> as "overkill"...<BR>
<BR>
I remember an acquaintance talking about the time in 'Nam his patrol<BR>
got pinned down on a hill, with a bunch of NVA on the oppisite hill<BR>
firing at them and trying to advance down into the "valley" between<BR>
them.<BR>
<BR>
He called for fire support. No gunships or planes nearby. Somebody said<BR>
"Wait minute, I've got an idea.." He got passed to somebody over a<BR>
lousirer than usual link and gave the co-ordinates. "Ok, it's on the<BR>
way". And he waited. And waited... And then, as he put it, "... the<BR>
entire hill blew up!" When the dust cleard, much of the hill was<BR>
*gone*. <BR>
<BR>
Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:49:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> perp. She was alert enough to grab her cell phone before she got locked<BR>
>> up. She had a running conversation with the 911 dispatcher. They <BR>
>> eventually got an engineer to try to determine her position from the<BR>
>> cell system. He was able to not only identify the cell, but which<BR>
>> tridrant (?) of the cell. <BR>
<BR>
Most cell towers are set up with *three* antennas, space 120 degrees<BR>
apart. They can tell which antenna is getting the signal.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:46:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson<BR>
>><BR>
>> HERF is High Energy Radio Frequency. It's directional to some extent,<BR>
>> but not very "narrow".<BR>
>><BR>
>> Explaining the difference without pictures or being able to "wave my<BR>
>> hands" to illustrate is beyond me...<BR>
><BR>
> Let me try.<BR>
><BR>
> EMP is non-directional, because it is generated by an atomic explosion.<BR>
> One can't "direct" EMP except in the way one shapes an explosive charge, and<BR>
> that would require something that won't just get vapourized by the blast.<BR>
<BR>
EMP *can* be generated by a nuclear explosion. But it can also be<BR>
generated by imploding a coil that's generating a *strong* magnetic field.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:51:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 2 Mar 00, at 0:24, Chauncey Smith wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I don't know the demographics of the high price car crowd. I believe that<BR>
>> I have fears about that to. I think that what makes me more comfortable<BR>
>> with the low jack is who controls it. It's a private company that controls<BR>
>> weather the thing is on or off. so you call the company and they turn it<BR>
>> on.<BR>
<BR>
Want to bet? Lo-jack and the like are *always* transmitting. They just<BR>
don't bother *tracking* a given signal until you tell them it's been<BR>
stolen (or the police hit them with a court order).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:55:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: NUDE, NUDE, NUDE<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ob Trav; Is there a nudist colony colony? Given the number of settlements<BR>
> that seem to be sparked by those peoples who want to live or belive a<BR>
> certain way I'm sure there would have to be. Somewhere 'beachy' perhaps. Mr<BR>
> Battledress-as-campaign-killer would certainly stand out there.....<BR>
<BR>
It's *possible* to justify nudity on religious grounds (I'm sure you<BR>
can all figure out ways without my listing them). Which means that the<BR>
visiting PCs have to strip down to leave the starport. <BR>
<BR>
Shoulder-bags, fanny packs, and the like are ok, since pckets aren't<BR>
available. But even so, that's gonna *really* cut down on the amount of<BR>
hardware the gun-happy types take along. <BR>
<BR>
And don't forget to check for sunburns if the PCs forget their sunscreen!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:00:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry, but I'm rather addicted to the stuff... have been since before<BR>
> birth. Have very funny withdraws when deprived of it....<BR>
<BR>
Just be careful. I got a borderline OD once and it *isn't* fun. (No, I<BR>
*don't* mean drowning, look up "water intoxication" if you are curious).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:02:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing guess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I couldn't figure out the attributions so I snipped them-- sorry-- I think<BR>
> this is a conversation between J. Snead and Leonard but I'm not sure who<BR>
> said what...<BR>
><BR>
>>>> In a decade or less it will likely be rather easy for a government with<BR>
> an interest in such things to check every phonecall and email message in<BR>
> their nation for certain key words and phrases.<BR>
>>>><BR>
> <snip><BR>
>>> Sorry, but there's strong evidence that this *is* being done *now*.  As<BR>
> for "false alarms", in the Intel business they *prefer* false alarms to<BR>
> missing significant messages. And I guess you aren't aware that the NSA is<BR>
> one of the big backers of AI for speech recognition and parsing "natural<BR>
> language".<BR>
>>> And don't forget that any messages (voice or text) that get flagged will<BR>
> be *complete*, not partial, and the human they get referred to can scan<BR>
> printed text very fast. Ditto for intercepted audio. There are gizmos that<BR>
> can speed up speech 5 times or more *without* distorting it.<BR>
>>><BR>
>> Hmm, I had heard rumors that all international email and phone calls were<BR>
> being checked, but they may well now have the capacity to check everything<BR>
> (shudder).<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
Sorry, it *is* just international stuff (so far). Canada like doesn't<BR>
get checked because of the way the phone systems work.<BR>
<BR>
> ALL international email and calls?  Even to friendly countries like Japan<BR>
> and Canada?<BR>
><BR>
> A friend of mine appends a word salad containing the words "bin-laden",<BR>
> "bomb", "sarin", etc to his sig file just to make sure he wastes the NSA's<BR>
> time to the max.<BR>
><BR>
> I just feel sorry for whatever poor sot gets stuck listening to my phone<BR>
> calls to Japan:<BR>
><BR>
> "And how is Natsumi liking Junior High School?  Does she have any boyfriends<BR>
> yet?  Oh, they tease her about her brown hair... yeah, I hated that too..."<BR>
><BR>
> "So, Shinji did WHAT?  Yeesh, no wonder you dumped him.  Let me tell you<BR>
> about Hiroshi's latest insanity..."<BR>
><BR>
> "You're kidding.  My ex-mother in law did that too!"<BR>
><BR>
> "Toru-chan is still reading those bishounen mangas?  You know he kinda sorta<BR>
> looks like one... we better keep ikki away from him..."<BR>
><BR>
> "Yes, Go, I really do think that it's significant she changed her name from<BR>
> Akiko to Akira..."<BR>
><BR>
> Can you IMAGINE how deadly boring a job this is?  Listening to the minutiae<BR>
> of complete strangers' romantic and family lives just because there MIGHT be<BR>
> some piece of information being exchanged that is even remotely related to<BR>
> intelligence?<BR>
><BR>
> The mind frankly boggles.  And boggles again...<BR>
><BR>
> I can just see some poor idiot throwing up his hands after one of my calls<BR>
> saying "This is NOT what I spent xx months learning Japanese in order to<BR>
> listen to!!!"<BR>
><BR>
> I have very little to hide so while it annoys me to think that someone might<BR>
> be listening in on my confidences, I can't help but be amused at how boring<BR>
> it must be.  Such a job is its own punishment.<BR>
<BR>
No *person* is listening unless the *computer* flags the call as<BR>
"interesting". Gear that can recognize keywords as spoken by most<BR>
people is available "off the shelf". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1993<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1994</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 1994<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
CT Stellar System Design (long)<BR>
Re:  Last Update: Keith Supplements TML #1991<BR>
Re:  The Universal Bar Profile  TML #1991<BR>
RE: Govornment Interest<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Psionic Conversion<BR>
Ditzie speak...<BR>
RE: Ain't Technology wonderfu<BR>
RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
Re: CT Stellar System Design (long)<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
re:  Vargr skin?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:07:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The computer dials every number in an exchange. If modem/fax/etc.<BR>
> answers, the computer removes it from the list. If an answering<BR>
> machine answers, the clerk (moi) hits a button and the computer<BR>
> cycles it back into the queue.<BR>
<BR>
With more advanced equipment, the *computer* does this, and only<BR>
patches the call into in anoperator position *after* it is answered. If<BR>
there's no free operator within 5(?) seconds, it hangs up and makes a<BR>
note to re-call the number some other day. <BR>
<BR>
And yes, this may be what all those calls where you answer and nobody<BR>
is there are.<BR>
<BR>
> If a human answers and doesn't use the magic words ("Place me on your<BR>
> permanent 'do not solicit' list") the number stays on the active call<BR>
> list forever. Best answering machine message I heard was "This is<BR>
> 555-5555. No one will answer this phone unless you give your name and<BR>
> the reason for your call."<BR>
<BR>
If they try that with Oregon numbers, they'd better shell out the money<BR>
for the "do not solicit" list from the state *first*. Otherwise, it's a<BR>
$25k fine. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:48:58 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
>OK, a crossbow isn't silent -- but no one has opposed my<BR>
>position that it looks cool.<BR>
<BR>
	On the contrary, I fully endorse it!<BR>
<BR>
>How about a laser as a silent weapon?  It seems to me that,<BR>
>under Striker and/or Mercenary, visible light lasers had a<BR>
>signature DM, but X-ray lasers did not.  If that is correct,<BR>
>what was the signature?  Light diffusion or sound? Does the<BR>
>laser make any sound, either with the air or in the weapon<BR>
>itself (hmm bzzt! frch! or something?)?<BR>
<BR>
	There have been a number of discussions regarding the<BR>
	utility of a laser weapon in air, but I like lasers, I<BR>
	like them in air, and I like them silent.  Sue me.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:57:28 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: CT Stellar System Design (long)<BR>
<BR>
Hi folks,<BR>
<BR>
I was happily reading through my brand new CT reprints, and decided to try<BR>
out the star system generation rules (that I had not seen before).  If any<BR>
of you gentles more familiar with these rules has the time and inclination,<BR>
I would appreciate knowing if I have made any serious misinterpretations of<BR>
those rules.  My experiment started with Efate:<BR>
<BR>
Efate	Regina 0105	A646930-D	N, IWS	Industrial<BR>
System Nature: 2D -> 5 = Solo<BR>
Primary Star Type: 2D -> 7 +4 (atm 4/pop 9) = 11 = F<BR>
Spectral Decimal Classification: 1D -> 5 = 5 to 9: 1D -> 1 = 5, therefore F5<BR>
Primary Star Size: 2D -> 6 +4 (atm 4/pop 9) = 10 = V<BR>
Maximum Orbits: 2D -> 6 = 0/1/2/3/4/5/6 (0.2/0.4/0.7/1.0/1.6/2.8/5.2 AU)<BR>
Zones: I/I/I/I/H/O/O<BR>
Empty Orbits: 1D -> 5 = yes, 1D -> 5 = 3 empty orbits... 2D -> 6, 2D -> 4,<BR>
2D -> 5... orbits 4, 5, and 6 are empty<BR>
Captured Orbits: 1D -> 1 = none<BR>
Gas Giants: none<BR>
Planetoids: 2D -> 6 = yes, 2D -> 9 = 1<BR>
Place Planetoid Belt: 1D -> 3 = 0-2, 1D -> 1 = orbit 0<BR>
Place Main World: orbit 4 (H), make orbit 3 empty instead<BR>
Orbit 0 Population: 2D-2 -> 9 -5 (inner zone) = 4 = 10,000-90,000, 1D -> 5<BR>
= 70,000-90,000, 1D -> 2 = 70,000<BR>
Orbit 1 World Size: 2D-2 -> 10 -4 (orbit 1) = 6 = 9,600 km in diameter<BR>
Orbit 1 Atmosphere: 2D-7+Siz -> 7 -2 (inner zone) = 5 = thin tainted<BR>
Orbit 1 Hydrographic: inner zone -> 0 = desert<BR>
Orbit 1 Population: 2D-2 -> 6 -5 (inner zone) = 1 = 10-90, 1D -> 6 = 70-90,<BR>
1D -> 5 = 90<BR>
Orbit 2 World Size: 2D-2 -> 2 -2 (orbit 2) = 0 = S, (2D+3)x100 -> 1,000 km<BR>
diameter<BR>
Orbit 2 Atmosphere: size S -> 0 = vacuum<BR>
Orbit 2 Hydrographic: size S -> 0 = desert<BR>
Orbit 2 Population: 2D-2 -> 8 -5 (inner zone) = 3 = 1,000-9,000, 1D -> 3 =<BR>
4,000-6,000, 1D -> 1 = 4,000<BR>
Satelites for Orbit 1: 1D-3 -> 0 = no satelites<BR>
Satelites for Orbit 2: 1D-3 -> 0 = no satelites<BR>
Satelites for Orbit 4: 1D-3 -> 0 = no satelites<BR>
Subordinate Government for Orbit 0: 1D -> 3 = Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy<BR>
Subordinate Government for Orbit 1: 1D -> 3 = Self-Perpetuating Oligarchy<BR>
Subordinate Government for Orbit 2: 1D -> 2 = Participating Democracy<BR>
Subordinate Law Level for Orbit 0: 1D-3+Law -> 0<BR>
Subordinate Law Level for Orbit 0: 1D-3+Law -> 0<BR>
Subordinate Law Level for Orbit 0: 1D-3+Law -> 1<BR>
Subordinate Facilities for Orbit 0: Mining<BR>
Subordinate Facilities for Orbit 1: none<BR>
Subordinate Facilities for Orbit 2: Mining, Research Laboratory<BR>
Subordinate Tech Level for Orbit 0: 12<BR>
Subordinate Tech Level for Orbit 1: 12<BR>
Subordinate Tech Level for Orbit 2: 13<BR>
Spaceport for Orbit 0: 1D -> 6 = Good Quality<BR>
Spaceport for Orbit 1: 1D -> 6 -2 (pop 1) = 4 = Poor Quality<BR>
Spaceport for Orbit 2: 1D -> 1 = no spaceport<BR>
Stellar Bolometric Magnitude: F5/Siz V -> 3.40<BR>
Stellar Luminosity: F5/Siz V -> 3.5<BR>
Stellar Effective Temperature: F5/Siz V -> 6,700 K<BR>
Stellar Radii: F5/Siz V -> 1.4<BR>
Stellar Mass: F5/Siz V -> 1.3<BR>
Orbital Period for Orbit 0: (0.2^3/1.3)^0.5 -> 0.078<BR>
Orbital Period for Orbit 1:  (0.4^3/1.3)^0.5 -> 0.222<BR>
Orbital Period for Orbit 2:  (0.7^3/1.3)^0.5 -> 0.514<BR>
Orbital Period for Orbit 4:  (1.0^3/1.3)^0.5 -> 1.775<BR>
Cloudiness for Orbit 4: Hyd 6 -> 40%<BR>
Albedo for Orbit 4: cloud = 0.4 + 0.6x0.6x0.02 (water) + 0.4x0.6x0.1 (land)<BR>
= 0.4<BR>
Greenhouse Effect for Orbit 4: Atm 5 -> +5%<BR>
Local Temperature for Orbit 4: 374.025x1.05x(1-0.4)x(3.5^0.25)/1.0^0.5 -><BR>
255 K = -19 C = -3 F<BR>
Local Temperature for Orbit 1: 728 K = 454 C = 849 F<BR>
<BR>
comments:<BR>
<BR>
	There are way too many planets with atm 2-9 out of the habitable<BR>
	zone.  I would suggest a table for such planets more like:<BR>
	     2D-2+Siz	Atm<BR>
		-3	0<BR>
		4-6	1<BR>
		7	2D-2+Siz<BR>
		8	A<BR>
		9	B<BR>
		10	C<BR>
		11	D<BR>
		12	E<BR>
		13	F<BR>
<BR>
	What's the deal with star size vs star radius?<BR>
<BR>
	Has anyone made up an axial tilt table?  How about:<BR>
		2D	Tilt<BR>
		2	(1D+3)x10<BR>
		3	30<BR>
		4	20<BR>
		5	10<BR>
		6	5<BR>
		7	0<BR>
		8	5<BR>
		9	10<BR>
		10	20<BR>
		11	30<BR>
		12	(1D+3)x10<BR>
<BR>
	And Eccentricity?<BR>
		2D	Ecc		1D	Ecc		1D	Ecc<BR>
		2	next table	1	0.025		1	0.300<BR>
		3	0.020		2	0.050		2	0.350<BR>
		4	0.015		3	0.100		3	0.400<BR>
		5	0.010		4	0.200		4	0.450<BR>
		6	0.005		5	0.250		5	0.500<BR>
		7	0.000		6	next table	6	more?<BR>
		8	0.005<BR>
		9	0.010<BR>
		10	0.015<BR>
		11	0.020<BR>
		12	next table<BR>
<BR>
By the way, has anyone run a world with a "standard" atmosphere (6) that<BR>
has 20% O2 and 80% He?  I was just thinking that it would be interesting to<BR>
see the PC's reaction to a Schwarzenegger-like marine with a well-worn<BR>
gauss rifle and a Daffy Duck voice ordering the party to drop their weapons.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 09:01:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re:  Last Update: Keith Supplements TML #1991<BR>
<BR>
Paul:<BR>
<BR>
Congratulations and mega apologies if I have harassed you.<BR>
<BR>
From this corner, there will not be the sound of "one hand clapping,"<BR>
but joyous sighs of relief and hearty yells of "Ya Done Good!"<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 09:07:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov><BR>
Subject: Re:  The Universal Bar Profile  TML #1991<BR>
<BR>
Attn Doug:<BR>
<BR>
Hell, don't puth ith in the Thilly Era sthufth.....<BR>
<BR>
This is Therious (hic....burp).  I know ofth onth mar..Mar...Mar...<BR>
Jarheadth regthimenth thath will foolwth thisth tooth the enthth<BR>
degreeth.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eric<BR>
<BR>
eholmes@lanl.gov 			holmberg@thuntek.net <BR>
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 	6pm to Midnight Mountain Time<BR>
<BR>
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,<BR>
pi+, ta+, <BR>
		as+, va+, dr+, _sa_, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, _hu_ <BR>
			(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)<BR>
<BR>
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:08:13 -0600 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Govornment Interest<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman posted:<BR>
><BR>
>In a message dated 00-03-03 02:11:09 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
><< On<BR>
> the other hand he might just be accumulating all kinds of interest on the<BR>
> part of multiple government agencies. >><BR>
><BR>
>Working for GDW was enough to get most of us on a government list of <BR>
>"civilians who show an inordinate interest in military affairs" or so I am <BR>
>told . . .<BR>
><BR>
>Heaven only knows what lists working for SJ Games has put me on!<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
Just remember, Loren, the government is a friend who just wants to protect<BR>
you from yourself.<BR>
<BR>
Now excuse me while I go wash out my keyboard with soap.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:10:18 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > The computer dials every number in an exchange. If modem/fax/etc.<BR>
> > answers, the computer removes it from the list. If an answering<BR>
> > machine answers, the clerk (moi) hits a button and the computer<BR>
> > cycles it back into the queue.<BR>
> <BR>
> With more advanced equipment, the *computer* does this, and only<BR>
> patches the call into in anoperator position *after* it is answered. If<BR>
> there's no free operator within 5(?) seconds, it hangs up and makes a<BR>
> note to re-call the number some other day. <BR>
> <BR>
> And yes, this may be what all those calls where you answer and nobody<BR>
> is there are.<BR>
<BR>
I pick up the phone and say "Hello" once. If I get dead air, I know that <BR>
I am being cold-called. I wait for the operator to say something and then <BR>
frequently give  them a hard time about being rude in a "Tar Baby"-esque<BR>
manner. Some of them try to make excuses. I give them more grief.<BR>
> <BR>
> > If a human answers and doesn't use the magic words ("Place me on your<BR>
> > permanent 'do not solicit' list") the number stays on the active call<BR>
> > list forever. Best answering machine message I heard was "This is<BR>
> > 555-5555. No one will answer this phone unless you give your name and<BR>
> > the reason for your call."<BR>
> <BR>
> If they try that with Oregon numbers, they'd better shell out the money<BR>
> for the "do not solicit" list from the state *first*. Otherwise, it's a<BR>
> $25k fine. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
They tried to implement something like that in Virginia but the telemarketing<BR>
lobby was too persuasive. I think Maryland may be trying something like<BR>
that as well.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:20:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: john hamilton <johnhamilton_us@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Psionic Conversion<BR>
<BR>
While the methods for all other aspects were quite<BR>
simple,there's nowhere a method for the conversion of<BR>
CT and TNE Psionics into GURPS.<BR>
How did you do it?<BR>
Is there a standard procedure? <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 09:55:17 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Ditzie speak...<BR>
<BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net) types:<BR>
>Lord, I sure hope Ditzie doesn't continue to speak in this fashion when she<BR>
>gets older.......<BR>
<BR>
Somehow, the thought of Ditzie in full Val-Speak isn't comforting either...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/  Opinions Mine!<BR>
Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 10:05:23 -0500<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ain't Technology wonderfu<BR>
<BR>
  "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> puts on the ether:<BR>
>In a message dated 00-03-02 12:46:51 EST, you write:<BR>
> > The computer dials every number in an exchange. If modem/fax/etc.<BR>
> > answers, the computer removes it from the list.<BR>
>Wimps. Over here, they immediately fax the number if they detect one.<BR>
><grin><BR>
<BR>
Nope, just cheap.  $500 federal fine for each unsolicited commercial fax.<BR>
Law courtesy of Spamford Wallace, the fellow who founded Cyberpromo, after <BR>
his bulk commercial fax business became a money losing business. :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he<BR>
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to<BR>
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'"<BR>
Deborah Orin in the New York Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore<BR>
drank champagne with Chinese Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the<BR>
Tiananmen massacre.   http://albore.homepage.com/<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 17:12:46 -0000 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
LKW wrote:<BR>
> Best answering machine message I heard was "This is 555-5555.<BR>
> No one will answer this phone unless you give your name and the <BR>
> reason for your call."<BR>
<BR>
The best one I heard of was a guy who would  enquire  as  to  the<BR>
name of the telemarketing company  (not  the  client).  He  would<BR>
then say that the said company was using his personal  phone  for<BR>
advertising purposes and that if they wished to do so again  he'd<BR>
be happy to receive their calls at a fee  of  $1000  a  time.  He<BR>
further stated that if they did call again he would take that  as acceptance<BR>
of his terms.<BR>
<BR>
The next time they called he'd send them a  bill  for  $1000  ...<BR>
they'd dispute it and would all end up in  court.  Last  I  heard<BR>
this guy had not received  a  full  $1000  from  anyone  but  had<BR>
received various smaller sums  from  a  number  of  telemarketing<BR>
companies.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:29:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:50:33 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> (From my 8 hours as a telemarketer -- they lied to me when I was<BR>
>> hired . .  I was told I would _NOT_ be doing cold calls, but would<BR>
>> be calling people who had "expressed an interest in hearing about<BR>
>> the product" It didn't take long to figure out what was going on. I<BR>
>> took 3 days training and then quit at the end of my first shift.)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> What about cell phone numbers?<BR>
<BR>
It's trivial to get a list of which exchanges in an areacode are<BR>
cellular. Cell phones *aren't* on the same exchanges as regular phones.<BR>
Ditto for pagers.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:31:41 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 01:37 AM 3/3/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>http://www.phonebutler.com/<BR>
>><BR>
>>A little attachment you plug your phone line into.<BR>
>>If you answer and realize you've got atelemarketer,<BR>
>>you push a key on your phone and the 'butler' comes<BR>
>>on. In a very proper, reserved and calm voice, British<BR>
>>accented of course, it says all the magic words for you.<BR>
><BR>
> God, I needed that during the San Francisco mayoral election. We averaged<BR>
> five calls a day from candidates and various concerned groups and pollsters.<BR>
> Typical conversation.<BR>
><BR>
> Pollster: "Good morning sir, may I have a moment of your time to discuss<BR>
> the Mayoral run-off?"<BR>
><BR>
> Me: "I'm a writer working on a deadline, so.."<BR>
<BR>
Ah. That was your mistake. The correct answer is:<BR>
<BR>
"No." <click><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:32:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-03-02 12:46:51 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> The computer dials every number in an exchange. If modem/fax/etc. <BR>
>> answers, the computer removes it from the list. <BR>
><BR>
> Wimps. Over here, they immediately fax the number if they detect one.<BR>
> <grin><BR>
<BR>
Over here, that's illegal. You are not allowed to send ads by fax<BR>
except to people you have an "ongoing business relationship with. Also,<BR>
failure to have the *sending* phone number on the cover sheet is also<BR>
illegal.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:37:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 00-03-03 02:11:09 EST, you write:<BR>
><BR>
> << > The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
>  <BR>
>  [snip]<BR>
>  <BR>
>  What about cell phone numbers? >><BR>
><BR>
> Dunno. I presume they can be called as easily as any other numbers -- I was <BR>
> doing this 3 years ago, so perhaps cell phones weren't as common as they are <BR>
> becoming these days. Anybody out there with a cell phone ever been called by <BR>
> a telemarketer? <BR>
<BR>
As noted elsewhere, cell phones, pagers, and the like have their own<BR>
*seperate* exchanges. And given the *highly* negative reactions to<BR>
telemarketing calls to either, I'm sure that telemarketers just tell<BR>
their gear to skip those exchanges. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:48:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT Stellar System Design (long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi folks,<BR>
><BR>
> I was happily reading through my brand new CT reprints, and decided to try<BR>
> out the star system generation rules (that I had not seen before).  If any<BR>
> of you gentles more familiar with these rules has the time and inclination,<BR>
> I would appreciate knowing if I have made any serious misinterpretations of<BR>
> those rules.  My experiment started with Efate:<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> comments:<BR>
><BR>
>         There are way too many planets with atm 2-9 out of the habitable<BR>
>         zone.  I would suggest a table for such planets more like:<BR>
>              2D-2+Siz   Atm<BR>
>                 -3      0<BR>
>                 4-6     1<BR>
>                 7       2D-2+Siz<BR>
>                 8       A<BR>
>                 9       B<BR>
>                 10      C<BR>
>                 11      D<BR>
>                 12      E<BR>
>                 13      F<BR>
<BR>
Do keep in mind the though that since they aren't in the "habitable"<BR>
zone, the roll can be considered to be solely for *pressure*, not for<BR>
breathability. <BR>
<BR>
>         What's the deal with star size vs star radius?<BR>
<BR>
Size is how *astronomers* classify stars. And as you may have noted the<BR>
radius for a given size depends greatly on the *type* of star.<BR>
<BR>
> By the way, has anyone run a world with a "standard" atmosphere (6) that<BR>
> has 20% O2 and 80% He?  I was just thinking that it would be interesting to<BR>
> see the PC's reaction to a Schwarzenegger-like marine with a well-worn<BR>
> gauss rifle and a Daffy Duck voice ordering the party to drop their weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Kinda hard to get that sort of atmosphere naturally. He escapes form<BR>
normal sized planets in the habitable zone almost as fast as hydrogen<BR>
does. Also, you'd have to explain where all the nitrogen went. <BR>
<BR>
> :)<BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, it works fine in a deep sea habitat, or even a base<BR>
on a planet with a really high surface pressure (say a planet halfway<BR>
between a normal world and a gas giant). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:10:40 -0500<BR>
From: "James Earl" <jearl@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> It's trivial to get a list of which exchanges in an areacode are<BR>
> cellular. Cell phones *aren't* on the same exchanges as regular phones.<BR>
> Ditto for pagers.<BR>
<BR>
That's not exactly true, in either case. There are many cell phone and pager<BR>
companies that will only buy parts of a 10000 number exchange from the local<BR>
phone company. This is becoming much more rare now than it used to be, but<BR>
it still exists. The cell phone company that I handle call routing for has a<BR>
number of split exchanges that we share with the phone company, a legacy of<BR>
the old days.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:55:25 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
>Dunno. I presume they can be called as easily as any other <BR>
>numbers -- I was doing this 3 years ago, so perhaps cell phones<BR>
<BR>
>weren't as common as they are becoming these days. Anybody out <BR>
>there with a cell phone ever been called by a telemarketer? <BR>
<BR>
I haven't, but my friend has.  This was probably a year ago. <BR>
She said she became quite coldly enraged at the telemarketer:<BR>
"Do you realize you've called a cell phone and that your attempt<BR>
to sell me something is already costing me money?" or words to<BR>
that effect. Then she hung up.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 08:00:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
At 10:27 AM 3/3/2000 EST, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 3/3/00 5:30:42 AM !!!First Boot!!!, wombat@premier.net <BR>
>writes:<BR>
><BR>
><< ObTrav:  I can just imagine Cleon Zhunastu and his associates, trying to<BR>
> decide who will write the text of the Warrant of Restoration, as per the<BR>
> song "But, Mr. Adams", from "1776." >><BR>
><BR>
>Oh; we GOT to do this one for the Sily Era...:-)<BR>
<BR>
If somebody does it up, I'll be happy to put it up on the filk page.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 08:04:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 12:39 AM 3/3/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Heck, I've often wanted to take a few grenade happy players out<BR>
>somewhere and hand them some practice grenades, have them throw them,<BR>
>then measure how far *inside* the danger zone they'd probably be... :-)<BR>
<BR>
Old Ft. Benning rule: In Infantry OSUT, you get two live grenades to throw.<BR>
The first one goes about 4 meters. The second goes about 40 meters.<BR>
<BR>
I sucked at the grenade. The Drills kept yelling it was just like throwing<BR>
a baseball. That's a help, I hated baseball back then.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:28:31 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>God, I needed that during the San Francisco mayoral election. We averaged<BR>
five calls a day from candidates and various concerned groups and pollsters.<BR>
Typical conversation.<BR>
><BR>
>Pollster: "Good morning sir, may I have a moment of your time to discuss<BR>
the Mayoral run-off?"<BR>
><BR>
>Me: "I'm a writer working on a deadline, so.."<BR>
><BR>
>P: "Fine, if the election were held today, would you vote for Mayor Willie<BR>
Brown, or Supervisor Tom Amminiano?"<BR>
><BR>
>M: "I won't tell you, it's a secret ballot." *click*<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Oh, you too?  I hated that.  What's worse is they leave these long messages<BR>
on your answering machine.  I'd come home and find five messages on my<BR>
machine exhorting me to vote for Willie Brown (who bought the election, just<BR>
like he always does.)<BR>
<BR>
Since I wouldn't vote for Willie Brown for chief pooper-scooper at the zoo<BR>
(he creates more poop than he'll EVER clean up) this did nothing for my<BR>
shiny happy temperament.  I did take great pleasure in informing one of<BR>
these bozos that if Willie Brown was the only name on the ballot I'd write<BR>
in Sailor Moon.  (Whom I firmly believe would do a better job of running San<BR>
Francisco-- she may be a ditz who leaves most of the work to her friends but<BR>
her friends are less selfish and more competent than Willie's friends.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:34:56 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Vargr skin?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
<BR>
At 10:41 02.03.00 -0800, Glenn Grant wrote:<BR>
>>Excellent!  I would just note that the Vargr are known to have<BR>
>>fight bars -- bars where you go specifically for the purpose<BR>
of<BR>
>>getting into a bar fight.  Usually no one gets seriously hurt.<BR>
<BR>
>>Human skin is not as tough as Vargr skin, of course, nor do<BR>
>>humans have claws, so it's worth perfecting some good blocks<BR>
>>and dodges before visiting a Vargr fight bar.  [snip]<BR>
<BR>
No, actually I (Glenn Goffin) wrote that.  Glenn Grant wrote the<BR>
Universal Bar Profile to which my post refers.<BR>
<BR>
You replied:<BR>
>Well, from the material I have (mainly GT and some MT stuuf, as<BR>
<BR>
>well as German CT) I always concluded that conoical Vargr are <BR>
>_less_ tough than humans. Am I completely wrong here?<BR>
<BR>
Well, what does tough mean?  There are different scales and<BR>
concerns at issue, and any game can't model all of them well. <BR>
At the higher damage scale, which Traveller tries to model, a<BR>
Vargr is less tough than a Human in that a Vargr stops being<BR>
able to function before a human as points of damage are applied.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
At the lower damage scale, which is irrelevant to Traveller's<BR>
game mechanics, but important to role-playing, a human's skin<BR>
breaks more easily than a Vargr's, and human has a lower pain<BR>
threshhold than a Vargr.  Therefore, in a bar fight, the human<BR>
is going to decide to quit fighting before a Vargr who has<BR>
received the same minor hits (one can think of it as failing a<BR>
morale check).<BR>
<BR>
Real world examples can be found in comparing humans and dogs. <BR>
A scratch that breaks my skin is merely stimulating to a dog.  A<BR>
punch that bruises me to the bone might be only a minor surface<BR>
bruise on a dog, if even that.  On the other hand, if I lose a<BR>
pint of blood, I'm still conscious and functioning, and the dog<BR>
is probably not.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1994<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1995</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, March 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 1995<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
ANY OTHER TORONTO GAMERS<BR>
RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
re:  Vargr skin?<BR>
Re:  Last Update: Keith Supplements TML #1991<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: CT Stellar System Design<BR>
Re: Vs: Computing quess, Tech availlability<BR>
Re: Vs: Computing quess, Tech availlability<BR>
Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Since You Mentioned It (was: Ain't Technology wonderful)<BR>
RE: Last Update: Keith Supplements TML #1991<BR>
Re: SEC: NUDE, NUDE, NUDE<BR>
Re: Computing guess<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:39:21 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: ANY OTHER TORONTO GAMERS<BR>
<BR>
O.K. I have Ehthan & Peter...Are there any other TORONTO gamers who want to <BR>
join in with the game that Rob Prior is organizing for March break.  If yes, <BR>
reply with name and email to kafka47@hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:49:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide!<BR>
<BR>
I have forwarded this message to my most gullible friends (as<BR>
well as to my least gullible). Let's see if it makes it to<BR>
moveon.org.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:09:49 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> Courtesy on NIST, I finally found some better data on absorption of x-rays<BR>
> in air. Kristin Miller says that a 1 MeV photon is just about right for<BR>
> zapping other ships in space. From the NIST tables (lots of good stuff at<BR>
> http://physlab.nist.gov) we get as a SWAG that for the Miller laser in air<BR>
> we get roughly I = I0 * exp(-x/300) (where x is the range in meters), so<BR>
> the range (1/e point) of one of these lasers in air is about 300 m. Since<BR>
> we're putting MJ into these beams, this should be fairly fun to watch.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...there's canon (TNE/T4 canon at least) for wavelengths in the 1 angstrom<BR>
range for xray lasers.  I don't recall offhand how to convert that to<BR>
energy, though MeV photons seems extremely high.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:13:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Realistically, probably a flash of superheated air and an explosive<BR>
> > crack.   Then again, realistically range for an X-ray laser in air is<BR>
> > only a couple of meters, air is opaque to X-rays.<BR>
> <BR>
> At the required energy levels *air* isn't all that transparent to *light*!<BR>
<BR>
Heh.  Well, we could be realistic and say 'lasers with non-nil penetration<BR>
cannot be used in atmosphere due to superheating the air they pass through',<BR>
but that's not much fun and isn't entirely true in any case (it depends on<BR>
how the beam is focused).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:31:07 -0800<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hm...there's canon (TNE/T4 canon at least) for wavelengths in the 1<BR>
angstrom<BR>
> range for xray lasers.  I don't recall offhand how to convert that to<BR>
> energy, though MeV photons seems extremely high.<BR>
<BR>
Engineering SWAG:<BR>
<BR>
I think the rule of thumb I used to use was that the wavelength in microns<BR>
was about the reciprocal of the energy in eV. So that for visible light, say<BR>
0.5 micron in wavelength, we get an energy of about 2 eV. Close enough? Thus<BR>
for the TNE system, we have a wavelength of about 10^-4 microns, so we must<BR>
have an energy of about 10 keV.<BR>
<BR>
Since the higher energy x-rays are absorbed less by air, if we are at about<BR>
10 keV, the range of the laser in air is even less. I don't have any data<BR>
handy, but from calculating wildly last night, I seem to recall that at that<BR>
energy the range (1/e point) is about 1 meter.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:39:26 EST<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) typed:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
>>>Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
>>>team.... ;-)<BR>
>><BR>
>> I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
>> as "overkill"...<BR>
><BR>
>I remember an acquaintance talking about the time in 'Nam his patrol<BR>
>got pinned down on a hill, with a bunch of NVA on the oppisite hill<BR>
>firing at them and trying to advance down into the "valley" between<BR>
>them.<BR>
><BR>
>He called for fire support. No gunships or planes nearby. Somebody said<BR>
>"Wait minute, I've got an idea.." He got passed to somebody over a<BR>
>lousirer than usual link and gave the co-ordinates. "Ok, it's on the<BR>
>way". And he waited. And waited... And then, as he put it, "... the<BR>
>entire hill blew up!" When the dust cleard, much of the hill was<BR>
>*gone*. <BR>
><BR>
>Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
>entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
><BR>
>- -- <BR>
<BR>
 Either this happened a LOT or it's the most common Vietnam War<BR>
Urban Legend, as I've heard it from several different sources.  As it's<BR>
always "a buddy" I suspect the latter...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 12:54:40 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) typed:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
> >entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >- --<BR>
> <BR>
>  Either this happened a LOT or it's the most common Vietnam War<BR>
> Urban Legend, as I've heard it from several different sources.  As it's<BR>
> always "a buddy" I suspect the latter...<BR>
<BR>
Bit of both, I suspect...the New Jersey was on station offshore for much<BR>
of the war, and those 16 inchers have a helluva reach...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:55:57 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
> >entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
> ><BR>
> >- -- <BR>
> <BR>
>  Either this happened a LOT or it's the most common Vietnam War<BR>
> Urban Legend, as I've heard it from several different sources.  As it's<BR>
> always "a buddy" I suspect the latter...<BR>
<BR>
Or it happened once and the story spread.  Not all 'legends' are actually <BR>
false.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 21:08:27 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: re:  Vargr skin?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:34 03.03.00 -0800, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
>>From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
><BR>
>At 10:41 02.03.00 -0800, Glenn Grant wrote:<BR>
>>>Excellent!  I would just note that the Vargr are known to have<BR>
>>>fight bars -- bars where you go specifically for the purpose<BR>
>of<BR>
>>>getting into a bar fight.  Usually no one gets seriously hurt.<BR>
><BR>
>>>Human skin is not as tough as Vargr skin, of course, nor do<BR>
>>>humans have claws, so it's worth perfecting some good blocks<BR>
>>>and dodges before visiting a Vargr fight bar.  [snip]<BR>
><BR>
>No, actually I (Glenn Goffin) wrote that.  Glenn Grant wrote the<BR>
>Universal Bar Profile to which my post refers.<BR>
<BR>
So I have been finally uncovered as an Eudora light user. Sorry about that :(<BR>
<BR>
>You replied:<BR>
>>Well, from the material I have (mainly GT and some MT stuuf, as<BR>
><BR>
>>well as German CT) I always concluded that conoical Vargr are <BR>
>>_less_ tough than humans. Am I completely wrong here?<BR>
><BR>
>Well, what does tough mean?  There are different scales and<BR>
>concerns at issue, and any game can't model all of them well. <BR>
>At the higher damage scale, which Traveller tries to model, a<BR>
>Vargr is less tough than a Human in that a Vargr stops being<BR>
>able to function before a human as points of damage are applied.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'd say that stunning effects are a good example for what "lower<BR>
damage scale" can do. (I don't remeber right now whether they are covered<BR>
in CT or MT- but they _are_ in GT, of course.) So if it's said "they are<BR>
tougher", I'd conclude that humans can not be as easiliy stunned as Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
>At the lower damage scale, which is irrelevant to Traveller's<BR>
>game mechanics, but important to role-playing, a human's skin<BR>
>breaks more easily than a Vargr's, and human has a lower pain<BR>
>threshhold than a Vargr.  Therefore, in a bar fight, the human<BR>
>is going to decide to quit fighting before a Vargr who has<BR>
>received the same minor hits (one can think of it as failing a<BR>
>morale check).<BR>
<BR>
Are you trying to tell that Vargr are just stupid, having a lower damage<BR>
tolerance "built in" but a higher will to accept damage? Uh. uh, if the<BR>
Imperial anti-racist initiative finds out, you have a real problem...<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
But if you mean that Vargr have some kind of "low level armor" built in due<BR>
to their fur, I'd just say that humans wear clothes. Not advantage here,<BR>
except for face, neck and hands.<BR>
<BR>
>Real world examples can be found in comparing humans and dogs. <BR>
>A scratch that breaks my skin is merely stimulating to a dog. <BR>
<BR>
Well, the dogs I knew were quite as vulnerable as humans. The fur didn't<BR>
help that much. Though I admit those dogs never suffered severe injuries in<BR>
their whole life, so you could probably substitute "vulnerable" with "wimpy".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 13:17:31 +0000<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  Last Update: Keith Supplements TML #1991<BR>
<BR>
At 09:01 AM 3/3/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Paul:<BR>
><BR>
>Congratulations and mega apologies if I have harassed you.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, and no - you never harassed me since you (unlike some individuals)<BR>
never threatened to sue and seize all my "assests" or sic the postal<BR>
inspectors<BR>
on me for mail fraud. :)<BR>
<BR>
>>From this corner, there will not be the sound of "one hand clapping,"<BR>
>but joyous sighs of relief and hearty yells of "Ya Done Good!"<BR>
<BR>
Thanks again. About the only real problem I had was with the trimming - I gave<BR>
up after the fourth printer and shipped 'em 'as-is' so I am sure I'll hear<BR>
about it in a few weeks. I enclosed an explaination in each package, as I<BR>
honestly did not want to risk damaging 'em - especially the autographed<BR>
editions. Anyways, after three hours in the post-office this morning (I had to<BR>
fill out a different customs form because they had given me the wrong ones the<BR>
day before for all the foreign orders) they are all in the mail so the job is<BR>
finished as far as I am concerned! :)<BR>
<BR>
Anyway - thaks for your patience in this whole process and I hope your wife<BR>
will approve when they do arrive.<BR>
<BR>
Cordially,<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:23:50 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> God, I needed that during the San Francisco mayoral election. We averaged<BR>
> five calls a day from candidates and various concerned groups and pollsters.<BR>
> Typical conversation.<BR>
<BR>
When I get these I tell them I'm going to write myself in.<BR>
After they stop sputtering, I ask them if the really expect<BR>
me to vote for someone else when I am the most qualified<BR>
for the position.  The smart ones hang up then.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:24:16 -0500<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Stellar System Design<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>         There are way too many planets with atm 2-9 out of the habitable<BR>
>>         zone.  I would suggest a table for such planets more like:<BR>
>>              2D-2+Siz   Atm<BR>
>>                 -3      0<BR>
>>                 4-6     1<BR>
>>                 7       2D-2+Siz<BR>
>>                 8       A<BR>
>>                 9       B<BR>
>>                 10      C<BR>
>>                 11      D<BR>
>>                 12      E<BR>
>>                 13      F<BR>
>Do keep in mind the though that since they aren't in the "habitable"<BR>
>zone, the roll can be considered to be solely for *pressure*, not for<BR>
>breathability. <BR>
<BR>
	This is true, and I had considered this table:<BR>
		1D	atm<BR>
		1	A<BR>
		2	A<BR>
		3	A<BR>
		4	roll normally<BR>
		5	1D: 1-5 = B, 6 = C<BR>
		6	1D: 1-3 = D, 4-5 = E, 6 = F<BR>
	For atm A (or B, or C, including on main worlds) pressure could<BR>
	be rolled separately.<BR>
<BR>
>>         What's the deal with star size vs star radius?<BR>
>Size is how *astronomers* classify stars. And as you may have noted the<BR>
>radius for a given size depends greatly on the *type* of star.<BR>
<BR>
	I thought it might be something like that.  Damn Terran astronomers.<BR>
	:)<BR>
<BR>
>> By the way, has anyone run a world with a "standard" atmosphere (6) that<BR>
>> has 20% O2 and 80% He?<BR>
>Kinda hard to get that sort of atmosphere naturally. He escapes form<BR>
>normal sized planets in the habitable zone almost as fast as hydrogen<BR>
>does. Also, you'd have to explain where all the nitrogen went.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Of course, but I might still place one oddball world out there.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 11:32:14 -0900<BR>
From: Richard Martin <asrlm@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Computing quess, Tech availlability<BR>
<BR>
Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: Luther Martin <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 1:43 AM<BR>
> Subject: Re: Computing quess<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> > In Traveller terms, it's probably more important to know what technology is<BR>
> > widely available, unless you like to run scenarios involving intellegence<BR>
> > agents funded by big governments, like I do.<BR>
> ><BR>
> That reminds me of something I wrote for Delta Green:<BR>
> (Here's a quick and dirty translation/summary)<BR>
> The basic presumption is that these inventions are made in secret labs.<BR>
> <BR>
> 10 steps from theory to households<BR>
> <BR>
> Step 1: theory, known only in the lab responsible and it's superiors.<BR>
> Step 2: 1st prototypes, known only in the lab responsible and it's superiors.<BR>
> Step 3: 1st limited use prototypes. Only a few made. Known on other levels of organization.<BR>
> Step 4: Limited production, to be used by trained specialists. Known thorough the secret organization.<BR>
> Step 5: Production by associated corporation. Used by field operatives.<BR>
> Step 6: Military secret, known by other parts of the government, foreign governments. Used outside secret operations.<BR>
> Step 7: Other major players learn to manufacture their own clones. Civilians outside of the governments using the invention are getting to know of it and it's capabilities.<BR>
> Step 8: In common military use.<BR>
> Step9: 1st commercially availlable variants/spin-offs.<BR>
> Step 10: Widely availlable, but still hi-tech devices using the principles of the invention.<BR>
> <BR>
> The invention advances from one step to another in 1-10 years, depending on circumstances. (The time can be highly variable, especially when speaking of sf-inventions.)<BR>
> <BR>
> -J2K<BR>
<BR>
Why do you assume that all inventions are driven by the Military or even<BR>
the Government? There are plenty of Labs that can and do R&D for<BR>
strictly for commercial purposes. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Richard Martin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think, therefor I am, therefor I must be... Still here<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:41:23 -0500 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Computing quess, Tech availlability<BR>
<BR>
Richard Martin wrote:<BR>
>Why do you assume that all inventions are driven by the Military or even <BR>
>the Government? There are plenty of Labs that can and do R&D for <BR>
>strictly for commercial purposes. <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, but those labs don't have access to the salvaged bits from that<BR>
Vilani scout ship...<G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 22:32:39 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
Hi!<BR>
<BR>
Looking at early Ziru Sirka maps and the maps of the empires that followed<BR>
it, I've asked myself one thing: <BR>
<BR>
Why the hell did the Vilani (and their followers) insist on settling more<BR>
and more rimward, but far less to corward, spinward or trailing? Locically,<BR>
they should have expanded more in a circular way, shouldn't they?<BR>
<BR>
Then there is another question: <BR>
<BR>
By the time the 3I was established, corward expansion beyond Rule Of Man<BR>
territory was impossible due to the Vargr there.They _did_ expand to<BR>
spinward and they _did_ expand towards the rim, even farther than the<BR>
Terrans had done. But what they somehow avoided was expansion from Core to<BR>
trailing? There are only a few minor states there by 1115, and the Two<BR>
Thousand Worlds are far enough away to allow at least to take another two<BR>
sectors or so. Especially the Archdukes of the Domain of Gateway should<BR>
have had an interest in expanding his domain, to make them more powerful<BR>
within the Imperium. What stopped Imperial expansion here, almost right<BR>
behind Core's very own backyard?<BR>
<BR>
Any ideas, or canon material I don't know?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:16:13 -0500<BR>
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi!<BR>
><BR>
> Looking at early Ziru Sirka maps and the maps of the empires that followed<BR>
> it, I've asked myself one thing:<BR>
><BR>
> Why the hell did the Vilani (and their followers) insist on settling more<BR>
> and more rimward, but far less to corward, spinward or trailing? Locically,<BR>
> they should have expanded more in a circular way, shouldn't they?<BR>
<BR>
No.  Logically, they should expand towards areas of increasing<BR>
resource density.  More stars likely to have habitable planets,<BR>
closer together.  Several medium size rifts to trailing suggests<BR>
going elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
bloo<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 15:59:07 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi!<BR>
> <BR>
> Looking at early Ziru Sirka maps and the maps of the empires that followed<BR>
> it, I've asked myself one thing:<BR>
> <BR>
> Why the hell did the Vilani (and their followers) insist on settling more<BR>
> and more rimward, but far less to corward, spinward or trailing? Locically,<BR>
> they should have expanded more in a circular way, shouldn't they?<BR>
<BR>
Well, the Vargr Extents (which were around for the 1st Imperium as well<BR>
as the 3rd) coreward would slow them down..spinward you get into the<BR>
Great Rift; don't forget, the Vilani only had Jump 2.... <BR>
<BR>
Why they didn't move more trailing, I don't know, you have a good point<BR>
there about another sector or so.<BR>
 <BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:37:38 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of James W.<BR>
> Lindsay<BR>
> Sent: Friday, 3 March 2000 19:45<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:50:33 EST, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > (From my 8 hours as a telemarketer -- they lied to me when I<BR>
> was hired . . .<BR>
> > I was told I would _NOT_ be doing cold calls, but would be<BR>
> calling people who<BR>
> > had "expressed an interest in hearing about the product" It<BR>
> didn't take long<BR>
> > to figure out what was going on. I took 3 days training and<BR>
> then quit at the<BR>
> > end of my first shift.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The computer dials every number in an exchange....<BR>
><BR>
> [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> What about cell phone numbers?<BR>
<BR>
All cell-phones are in a different "exchange" (Actually , area-code)  from<BR>
land-lines, for instance, in NZ all cell phones start with 025 or 021,<BR>
nomatter where the owner lives.<BR>
<BR>
Unless someon has forwarded a land-line to a cell-phone, in which case it<BR>
gets called.<BR>
<BR>
As some places charge the _caller_ for a call to a cell-phone, telemarketers<BR>
don't call them as often.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:36:13 -0500<BR>
From: "James Earl" <jearl@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
Hehe, ok, let me rephrase...in the United States, my statement is correct.<BR>
Outside the U.S, YMMV<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 03 Mar 2000, James Earl wrote:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > It's trivial to get a list of which exchanges in an areacode are<BR>
> > > cellular. Cell phones *aren't* on the same exchanges as regular<BR>
phones.<BR>
> > > Ditto for pagers.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > That's not exactly true, in either case. There are many cell phone and<BR>
pager<BR>
> > companies that will only buy parts of a 10000 number exchange from the<BR>
local<BR>
> > phone company. This is becoming much more rare now than it used to be,<BR>
but<BR>
> > it still exists. The cell phone company that I handle call routing for<BR>
has a<BR>
> > number of split exchanges that we share with the phone company, a legacy<BR>
of<BR>
> > the old days.<BR>
><BR>
> I believe that here in the UK, BT and the other Telcos (other telcos? what<BR>
> other telcos?) are restucturing the exchanges number system.  Including<BR>
> grouping all mobile phones into a single (or two :) area codes.  Within<BR>
these<BR>
> area codes the seperate mobile companies will buy/sell/allocate numbers.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Paul Campbell<BR>
> kemitixanzantix@freenet.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:09:56 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Since You Mentioned It (was: Ain't Technology wonderful)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 3:12 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> LKW wrote:<BR>
> > Best answering machine message I heard was "This is 555-5555.<BR>
> > No one will answer this phone unless you give your name and the<BR>
> > reason for your call."<BR>
><BR>
> The best one I heard of was a guy who would  enquire  as  to  the<BR>
> name of the telemarketing company  (not  the  client).  He  would<BR>
> then say that the said company was using his personal  phone  for<BR>
> advertising purposes and that if they wished to do so again  he'd<BR>
> be happy to receive their calls at a fee  of  $1000  a  time.  He<BR>
> further stated that if they did call again he would take that  as<BR>
acceptance<BR>
> of his terms.<BR>
<BR>
Since you mentioned this, on one of our current affairs shows here about a<BR>
year back - give or take a month, there was a story about a bloke in NSW (if<BR>
I remember correctly?) that did similar things with junk mail in he letter<BR>
box.  He registered a name for his "company" and fixed a "No Unsolicited<BR>
Mail" notice to his mailbox, and each time he got a flyer/advert, he would<BR>
look through it to determine if there was anything of interest to him, and<BR>
if there wasn't, he would bill the advertiser $25 for his "Prosessing" of<BR>
the mail they had sent him unrequested.<BR>
<BR>
It is totally legal, the larger companies tended to pay him up-front without<BR>
a hassel - and continue to send him junk mail as usual because they don't<BR>
usually have a say in who gets their flyers/adverts, just what areas!  Many<BR>
of the smaller advertisers would ignor the bill (which was issued a reminder<BR>
after 28-days) and often wouldn't pay, but it wasn't worth his time to take<BR>
it to court, so he would let them slide.  Those in-between sized companies<BR>
would often sent an abusive letter or would pay... the abusive letter<BR>
senders were legally prosecuted depending upon their attitude (the bloke<BR>
decided if so-and-so were so offensive that they needed to be taught a<BR>
lesson - so to speak) and the guy would get paid!<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> The next time they called he'd send them a  bill  for  $1000  ...<BR>
> they'd dispute it and would all end up in  court.  Last  I  heard<BR>
> this guy had not received  a  full  $1000  from  anyone  but  had<BR>
> received various smaller sums  from  a  number  of  telemarketing<BR>
> companies.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know the comparison with telemarketers and junk mail, or how things<BR>
work outside of Oz, but this bloke's system was found to be legal in every<BR>
state in Australia for junk mail.  He only operated in one state, and always<BR>
got paid when contested as he was deemed 1) a legal business, 2) made it<BR>
clear he did not wish to accept unsolicited mail, and 3) by actually looking<BR>
through what he did get, was taking his time to do so, that could be used<BR>
elsewhere which is subject to proper financial re-reimbursement!  Go<BR>
figure...<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: What sort of a radius would "junk mail" (spam?) have in the 3I?<BR>
Would a company find it worth the effort to advertise on neighbouring worlds<BR>
if they have a "unique" product??  Could X-boat messages be "sponsored" as<BR>
web sites can be (given they, x-mail, are an electronic medium) by<BR>
advertisers?  Would it be worthwhile to do so?<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:08:43 +1300<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Last Update: Keith Supplements TML #1991<BR>
<BR>
> On Behalf Of J. Paul Sanders<BR>
><BR>
> >Congratulations and mega apologies if I have harassed you.<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks, and no - you never harassed me since you (unlike some individuals)<BR>
> never threatened to sue and seize all my "assests" or sic the postal<BR>
> inspectors on me for mail fraud. :)<BR>
<BR>
Well, I did mention the postal inspectors (but not sueing), but that was<BR>
after you had failed to respond to several direct emails, and hadn't posted<BR>
any updates about three months after the original shipping date had passed.<BR>
Actually responding to the first, or subsequent, emails would have prevented<BR>
it.<BR>
<BR>
Since you started keeping us informed, I've been happy to wait.<BR>
<BR>
Though you do have the record for the longest I've waited for something<BR>
after paying for it ! <grin><BR>
<BR>
Anyway, congratulations on getting it all finished.<BR>
<BR>
It has even more significance now that we've lost one of the Keith's, and at<BR>
least to me represents some sort of memorial.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, you probably want to completely forget about it for a while, but it<BR>
might be helpful for other budding self-publishers out there if you wrote a<BR>
short piece on the process, the problems you had, anything you'd do<BR>
differently if you did it again, etc. (And I don't mind if you mention me as<BR>
one of the problems <grin>)<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:21:29 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: SEC: NUDE, NUDE, NUDE<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>>snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> And don't forget to check for sunburns if the PCs forget their sunscreen!<BR>
<BR>
Or, as comedienne Rita Rudner, describing her first topless sunbathing<BR>
experience, said, "They've never been in the sun before.  What if they<BR>
catch fire?"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:02:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Computing guess<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I couldn't figure out the attributions so I snipped them-- sorry-- I think<BR>
> this is a conversation between J. Snead and Leonard but I'm not sure who<BR>
> said what...<BR>
><BR>
>>>> In a decade or less it will likely be rather easy for a government with<BR>
> an interest in such things to check every phonecall and email message in<BR>
> their nation for certain key words and phrases.<BR>
>>>><BR>
> <snip><BR>
>>> Sorry, but there's strong evidence that this *is* being done *now*.  As<BR>
> for "false alarms", in the Intel business they *prefer* false alarms to<BR>
> missing significant messages. And I guess you aren't aware that the NSA is<BR>
> one of the big backers of AI for speech recognition and parsing "natural<BR>
> language".<BR>
>>> And don't forget that any messages (voice or text) that get flagged will<BR>
> be *complete*, not partial, and the human they get referred to can scan<BR>
> printed text very fast. Ditto for intercepted audio. There are gizmos that<BR>
> can speed up speech 5 times or more *without* distorting it.<BR>
>>><BR>
>> Hmm, I had heard rumors that all international email and phone calls were<BR>
> being checked, but they may well now have the capacity to check everything<BR>
> (shudder).<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
Sorry, it *is* just international stuff (so far). Canada like doesn't<BR>
get checked because of the way the phone systems work.<BR>
<BR>
> ALL international email and calls?  Even to friendly countries like Japan<BR>
> and Canada?<BR>
><BR>
> A friend of mine appends a word salad containing the words "bin-laden",<BR>
> "bomb", "sarin", etc to his sig file just to make sure he wastes the NSA's<BR>
> time to the max.<BR>
><BR>
> I just feel sorry for whatever poor sot gets stuck listening to my phone<BR>
> calls to Japan:<BR>
><BR>
> "And how is Natsumi liking Junior High School?  Does she have any boyfriends<BR>
> yet?  Oh, they tease her about her brown hair... yeah, I hated that too..."<BR>
><BR>
> "So, Shinji did WHAT?  Yeesh, no wonder you dumped him.  Let me tell you<BR>
> about Hiroshi's latest insanity..."<BR>
><BR>
> "You're kidding.  My ex-mother in law did that too!"<BR>
><BR>
> "Toru-chan is still reading those bishounen mangas?  You know he kinda sorta<BR>
> looks like one... we better keep ikki away from him..."<BR>
><BR>
> "Yes, Go, I really do think that it's significant she changed her name from<BR>
> Akiko to Akira..."<BR>
><BR>
> Can you IMAGINE how deadly boring a job this is?  Listening to the minutiae<BR>
> of complete strangers' romantic and family lives just because there MIGHT be<BR>
> some piece of information being exchanged that is even remotely related to<BR>
> intelligence?<BR>
><BR>
> The mind frankly boggles.  And boggles again...<BR>
><BR>
> I can just see some poor idiot throwing up his hands after one of my calls<BR>
> saying "This is NOT what I spent xx months learning Japanese in order to<BR>
> listen to!!!"<BR>
><BR>
> I have very little to hide so while it annoys me to think that someone might<BR>
> be listening in on my confidences, I can't help but be amused at how boring<BR>
> it must be.  Such a job is its own punishment.<BR>
<BR>
No *person* is listening unless the *computer* flags the call as<BR>
"interesting". Gear that can recognize keywords as spoken by most<BR>
people is available "off the shelf". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1995<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1996</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	3/3/00 8:18:14 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Friday, March 3 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 1996<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
[BITS] UK Convention News and ACQ<BR>
[BITS] News 3 March 2000<BR>
RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
RE: Famile Spofulam<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
Re: Vargr skin?<BR>
Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
Re: CT Stellar System Design<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 01:16:54 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] UK Convention News and ACQ<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
A reminder about 'The UK TRAVELLER ROADSHOW' at Hebden Bridge.<BR>
Saturday 11 March 2000  (10am to 11pm)<BR>
Sunday 12 March 2000   (10am to 6pm)<BR>
<BR>
BITS will be attending this event in force (well, there will be at <BR>
least two of us present). It's planned that both myself and Andy <BR>
Lilly will be there. With us will be a number of interesting things - <BR>
some of the first 50 copies of Doug Berry's long awaited Penguin <BR>
throwing 'At Close Quarters' (ACQ), and hopefully computers to <BR>
demonstrate Rob Prior's software and Derrick Jone's Traveller Trader <BR>
Spreadsheet. I hope to see you there, and in the pub later.<BR>
<BR>
Venue:<BR>
The Salem Community Centre,<BR>
Central Street,<BR>
(Beside the Co-Op)<BR>
Hebden Bridge<BR>
HX7-6HB.<BR>
<BR>
All welcome, for more details contact Nick Walker at <BR>
CNW@Globalnet.co.uk or phone (Evenings 01484 845476).<BR>
<BR>
There is a vegetarian cafe in the Centre that is open to the public <BR>
on Saturday and plenty of shops and food places around which are <BR>
close to the Centre.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
For Information about Accommodation try the following....<BR>
	Tourist Information Centre   Phone 01422-845266, they do a <BR>
guide to Accommodation<BR>
 <BR>
Also try the following links<BR>
	http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/tourist-info/index.html<BR>
	http://www.a1tourism.com/uk/hebden-bridge.html<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
Dom (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 01:07:18 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] News 3 March 2000<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
News 3 March 2000<BR>
<BR>
BITS has now substantially improved the internal printing quality for <BR>
its new products. The acquisition of a business-quality laser printer <BR>
means that new books can be produced directly by BITS, rather than <BR>
relying on outsourcing to a local copyshop (which has, in the past, <BR>
led to a lower print quality than we<BR>
would have liked). Internal pages for *new* products be directly <BR>
printed at 1200dpi laser quality.<BR>
<BR>
For the moment we intend to continue publishing BITS supplements <BR>
using the protective plastic covers that are a hallmark of our <BR>
products. Comments from customers have generally been positive, <BR>
indicating that this covering adds significantly to the durability of <BR>
our books. Naturally, we are always looking for feedback from our <BR>
customers so if you have any comments on the content (e.g. errata, <BR>
layout) or quality (e.g. print, durability) of BITS goods, please do <BR>
not hesitate to contact us via e-mail (bits@bits.org.uk) or mail <BR>
(BITS, PO Box 4222, Sawbridgeworth, Herts, CM21 0DP, England).<BR>
<BR>
End News<BR>
<BR>
Dom (BITS Webmaster)<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:45:14 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
HAH!!!!  ROFLMAO!!!!  I LOVE it!  I MUST get one.  Lately, we've been<BR>
getting hit by an automated MCI system EVERY FREAKIN' night.  We also<BR>
usually get about three others per week.  UGH!!!  If the PhoneButler(c)<BR>
doesn't work, I'm sicking Bun-Bun on 'em.<BR>
<BR>
ref Bun-Bun @ www.sluggy.com<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steve<BR>
> Daniels<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 10:37 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > If a human answers and doesn't use the magic words ("Place me on your<BR>
> > permanent 'do not solicit' list") the number stays on the<BR>
> active call list<BR>
> > forever. Best answering machine message I heard was "This is<BR>
> 555-5555. No one<BR>
> > will answer this phone unless you give your name and the reason for your<BR>
> > call."<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.phonebutler.com/<BR>
><BR>
> A little attachment you plug your phone line into.<BR>
> If you answer and realize you've got atelemarketer,<BR>
> you push a key on your phone and the 'butler' comes<BR>
> on. In a very proper, reserved and calm voice, British<BR>
> accented of course, it says all the magic words for you.<BR>
><BR>
> bloo<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:50:26 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
ROFLMAOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
If I'd been drinkin', that woulda' been a k/b kill.  I've generally learned<BR>
my lesson though :)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:23 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Everybody duck, run, and cover, she's BAAAAaaaaaacckk!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > [[hurridly donning armor & loading weapons]]<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Jesse<BR>
> > :)<BR>
><BR>
> Why do I have this image of a campaign for birth control using Ditzie<BR>
> as the "poster child"? :-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 17:50:26 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
No kiddin'.  Of course, one of my own pc's was known for useing grenades for<BR>
clearing rooms in at space starships, so I guess I shouldn't talk THAT much<BR>
;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:39 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Shit, THAT idiot...I'd managed to block him from my memory.<BR>
> Thanks Doug ;)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ObTrav:  Safe gun handling is going to be even MORE of an issue in the<BR>
> > future with things like FGMP's :)  If you AD/ND with that thing and it's<BR>
> > pointing close to you, you're splash-cooked.<BR>
><BR>
> Heck, I've often wanted to take a few grenade happy players out<BR>
> somewhere and hand them some practice grenades, have them throw them,<BR>
> then measure how far *inside* the danger zone they'd probably be... :-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:00:28 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Ooo shit!!  Yeah, that'd do the trick.  Good thing the squids didn't miss ;)<BR>
<BR>
On a similar note, a Tow-gunner friend of mine that served in Desert Storm<BR>
saw footage from the nose camera of a helicopter-fired TOW missle racing<BR>
towards the wall that a stubborn Iraqi soldier was behind.  The last thing<BR>
you see on the tape is his head peeking around the corner and his eyes<BR>
getting REALLY, REALLY BIG.<BR>
<BR>
In the gaming world, I once had one of my T2000 players use a Hellfire on<BR>
the tree that a bad guy was behind after said bad guy "Scratched my<BR>
tank!!!!" (words of the player).  I think Masamune Shirow heard about this,<BR>
and used it as a basis for Leona's (Tank Police) personality :)<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:41 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
> >>Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
> >>team.... ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
> > as "overkill"...<BR>
><BR>
> I remember an acquaintance talking about the time in 'Nam his patrol<BR>
> got pinned down on a hill, with a bunch of NVA on the oppisite hill<BR>
> firing at them and trying to advance down into the "valley" between<BR>
> them.<BR>
><BR>
> He called for fire support. No gunships or planes nearby. Somebody said<BR>
> "Wait minute, I've got an idea.." He got passed to somebody over a<BR>
> lousirer than usual link and gave the co-ordinates. "Ok, it's on the<BR>
> way". And he waited. And waited... And then, as he put it, "... the<BR>
> entire hill blew up!" When the dust cleard, much of the hill was<BR>
> *gone*.<BR>
><BR>
> Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
> entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 19:29:05 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:28:31 -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, you too?  I hated that.  What's worse is they leave these long messages<BR>
> on your answering machine.  I'd come home and find five messages on my<BR>
> machine exhorting me to vote for Willie Brown (who bought the election, just<BR>
> like he always does.)<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm... you'd think with all the attention Bill Clinton got a couple of<BR>
years ago that a politician would be doomed to go by the name "Willie"...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
What is Life? It's the cereal Mikey likes.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 20:15:56 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 22:32:39 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi!<BR>
> <BR>
> Looking at early Ziru Sirka maps and the maps of the empires that followed<BR>
> it, I've asked myself one thing: <BR>
> <BR>
> Why the hell did the Vilani (and their followers) insist on settling more<BR>
> and more rimward, but far less to corward, spinward or trailing? Locically,<BR>
> they should have expanded more in a circular way, shouldn't they?<BR>
<BR>
This one is actually vaguely explained in canon:<BR>
<BR>
"Almost two-thirds of the planets in the Vland sector can be reached from<BR>
Vland by a series of one-parsec jumps."<BR>
<BR>
When the Vilani first developed the jump drive they were limited to jumps<BR>
of only one parsec.  Studying the sector map of Vland shows that the Vilani<BR>
ran out of systems that they could reach both coreward and spinward almost<BR>
immediately, while those rimward-- and to a lesser extent, trailing-- were<BR>
in much greater abundance.  If you study the map carefully you will be able<BR>
to see the old Vilani Main stretching from Vland, through Kasear, Anakod,<BR>
Nulisud, and Daangiilu subsectors-- with Kasear (1822) being a very<BR>
important jump point into one rimward trailing quadrant of the sector.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have any exact info on Dagudashag sector but the "dot map" in V&V<BR>
doesn't look as if the Vilani could have progressed directly into this<BR>
sector from Vland sector with only jump-1.  However, jump-1 travel almost<BR>
to the core of Gushemege is possible along the rimward edge of the Great<BR>
Rift.  With a few deep space jump caches or rogue comets, further<BR>
exploration rimward into Illelish and Zarushagar sectors would be a breeze.<BR>
<BR>
Studying the dot map further, the star density seems much less dense<BR>
coreward into the Vargr Extents (whom the Vilani were NOT aware of) and<BR>
spinward into Corridor sector.  While expanding coreward wouldn't be<BR>
impossible (with multiple jump-1s spanning the many two-parsec jumps), it<BR>
wouldn't be nearly as profitable.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, the large Rifts were natural boundaries to invasion from<BR>
outside the Ziru Sirka.  Why surge beyond these natural boundaries when<BR>
they would be more beneficiary on the borders of your own Empire?  The<BR>
Great Rift was an obvious boundary to the Vilani, but so was the Windhorn,<BR>
Lesser Rift, and the rift centered on Delphi sector (name?).  Sylea then<BR>
became the capital of the Ziru Sirka as it continued to expand rimward.<BR>
<BR>
> Then there is another question: <BR>
> <BR>
> By the time the 3I was established, corward expansion beyond Rule Of Man<BR>
> territory was impossible due to the Vargr there.They _did_ expand to<BR>
> spinward and they _did_ expand towards the rim, even farther than the<BR>
> Terrans had done. But what they somehow avoided was expansion from Core to<BR>
> trailing? There are only a few minor states there by 1115, and the Two<BR>
> Thousand Worlds are far enough away to allow at least to take another two<BR>
> sectors or so. Especially the Archdukes of the Domain of Gateway should<BR>
> have had an interest in expanding his domain, to make them more powerful<BR>
> within the Imperium. What stopped Imperial expansion here, almost right<BR>
> behind Core's very own backyard?<BR>
<BR>
The only answer I can suggest is that the Third Imperium was simply "tired"<BR>
and happy with it's current size.  The Rebellion showed how sensitive a<BR>
star-spanning empire of 11,000 worlds is-- imagine trying to hold together<BR>
12,000 worlds...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
What is Life? It's the cereal Mikey likes.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:29:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On Fri, 03 Mar 2000, James Earl wrote:<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>> It's trivial to get a list of which exchanges in an areacode are<BR>
>>>> cellular. Cell phones *aren't* on the same exchanges as regular<BR>
>>>> phones.<BR>
>>>> Ditto for pagers.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> That's not exactly true, in either case. There are many cell phone<BR>
>>> and pager companies that will only buy parts of a 10000 number<BR>
>>> exchange from the local phone company. This is becoming much more<BR>
>>> rare now than it used to be, but it still exists. The cell phone<BR>
>>> company that I handle call routing for has a number of split<BR>
>>> exchanges that we share with the phone company, a legacy of the old<BR>
>>> days.<BR>
<BR>
But does the phone company have regular numbers on the rest of that<BR>
exchange, or their own cellular service, or other "odd numbers"?<BR>
<BR>
In any case, with "number portability", this is going to go away soon.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:32:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Howdy!<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > The computer dials every number in an exchange. If modem/fax/etc.<BR>
>> > answers, the computer removes it from the list. If an answering<BR>
>> > machine answers, the clerk (moi) hits a button and the computer<BR>
>> > cycles it back into the queue.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> With more advanced equipment, the *computer* does this, and only<BR>
>> patches the call into in anoperator position *after* it is answered. If<BR>
>> there's no free operator within 5(?) seconds, it hangs up and makes a<BR>
>> note to re-call the number some other day. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> And yes, this may be what all those calls where you answer and nobody<BR>
>> is there are.<BR>
><BR>
> I pick up the phone and say "Hello" once. If I get dead air, I know that <BR>
> I am being cold-called. I wait for the operator to say something and then <BR>
> frequently give  them a hard time about being rude in a "Tar Baby"-esque<BR>
> manner. Some of them try to make excuses. I give them more grief.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > If a human answers and doesn't use the magic words ("Place me on your<BR>
>> > permanent 'do not solicit' list") the number stays on the active call<BR>
>> > list forever. Best answering machine message I heard was "This is<BR>
>> > 555-5555. No one will answer this phone unless you give your name and<BR>
>> > the reason for your call."<BR>
>> <BR>
>> If they try that with Oregon numbers, they'd better shell out the money<BR>
>> for the "do not solicit" list from the state *first*. Otherwise, it's a<BR>
>> $25k fine. :-)<BR>
>> <BR>
> They tried to implement something like that in Virginia but the telemarketing<BR>
> lobby was too persuasive. I think Maryland may be trying something like<BR>
> that as well.<BR>
<BR>
Well, here we are *quite* serious. You pay a small yearly fee to be put<BR>
on the list, if you get called anyway, the state will go after them for<BR>
$25,000.<BR>
<BR>
The legislature passed the law last year and it took effect this year.<BR>
They did it because out-of-state companies weren't check the "no<BR>
solicitation" marks in the phone listings.<BR>
<BR>
Oregon being the contrary sort of state it is, I expect us to surprise<BR>
the heck out of a few telemarketers before the rest get the word.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:41:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> God, I needed that during the San Francisco mayoral election. We averaged<BR>
>> five calls a day from candidates and various concerned groups and <BR>
> pollsters.<BR>
>> Typical conversation.<BR>
><BR>
> When I get these I tell them I'm going to write myself in.<BR>
> After they stop sputtering, I ask them if the really expect<BR>
> me to vote for someone else when I am the most qualified<BR>
> for the position.  The smart ones hang up then.<BR>
<BR>
You should hear the riffs some SCA folks come up with when asked about<BR>
their political views. They usually start into an impassioned defense<BR>
of monarchy as a form of government. And spin it out until the survey<BR>
taker retreats in disorder.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:47:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) typed:<BR>
><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> At 9:10 PM -0800 3/1/00, Black ICE wrote:<BR>
>>>>Or an Imperial cruiser's meson spinal mount, called in by a recon<BR>
>>>>team.... ;-)<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> I think using a spinal mount meson gun to kill _one_ man counts<BR>
>>> as "overkill"...<BR>
>><BR>
>>I remember an acquaintance talking about the time in 'Nam his patrol<BR>
>>got pinned down on a hill, with a bunch of NVA on the oppisite hill<BR>
>>firing at them and trying to advance down into the "valley" between<BR>
>>them.<BR>
>><BR>
>>He called for fire support. No gunships or planes nearby. Somebody said<BR>
>>"Wait minute, I've got an idea.." He got passed to somebody over a<BR>
>>lousirer than usual link and gave the co-ordinates. "Ok, it's on the<BR>
>>way". And he waited. And waited... And then, as he put it, "... the<BR>
>>entire hill blew up!" When the dust cleard, much of the hill was<BR>
>>*gone*. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
>>entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
>><BR>
>>- -- <BR>
><BR>
>  Either this happened a LOT or it's the most common Vietnam War<BR>
> Urban Legend, as I've heard it from several different sources.  As it's<BR>
> always "a buddy" I suspect the latter...<BR>
<BR>
Well, my source claimed it happened to *him*, so that's a bit better.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Calling for fire support and getting a *major* ortillery strike<BR>
on the target. Just to help scale things, remember that Meteor Crater<BR>
in Arizona was created by a body about the size of a house.... Or was<BR>
it the size of a car? Either way, that's something a ship *could* launch.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:49:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) typed:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
>> >entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >- --<BR>
>> <BR>
>>  Either this happened a LOT or it's the most common Vietnam War<BR>
>> Urban Legend, as I've heard it from several different sources.  As it's<BR>
>> always "a buddy" I suspect the latter...<BR>
><BR>
> Bit of both, I suspect...the New Jersey was on station offshore for much<BR>
> of the war, and those 16 inchers have a helluva reach...<BR>
<BR>
Not really. With the rocket assist they added partway thru the war, max<BR>
range was still under 30 miles.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:51:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
>>Dunno. I presume they can be called as easily as any other <BR>
>>numbers -- I was doing this 3 years ago, so perhaps cell phones<BR>
><BR>
>>weren't as common as they are becoming these days. Anybody out <BR>
>>there with a cell phone ever been called by a telemarketer? <BR>
><BR>
> I haven't, but my friend has.  This was probably a year ago. <BR>
> She said she became quite coldly enraged at the telemarketer:<BR>
> "Do you realize you've called a cell phone and that your attempt<BR>
> to sell me something is already costing me money?" or words to<BR>
> that effect. Then she hung up.<BR>
<BR>
This is one of the reasons that just about everywhere *outside* North<BR>
America charges the *caller* for calls to cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 19:53:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vargr skin?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
><BR>
> At 10:41 02.03.00 -0800, Glenn Grant wrote:<BR>
>>>Excellent!  I would just note that the Vargr are known to have<BR>
>>>fight bars -- bars where you go specifically for the purpose<BR>
> of<BR>
>>>getting into a bar fight.  Usually no one gets seriously hurt.<BR>
><BR>
>>>Human skin is not as tough as Vargr skin, of course, nor do<BR>
>>>humans have claws, so it's worth perfecting some good blocks<BR>
>>>and dodges before visiting a Vargr fight bar.  [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> No, actually I (Glenn Goffin) wrote that.  Glenn Grant wrote the<BR>
> Universal Bar Profile to which my post refers.<BR>
><BR>
> You replied:<BR>
>>Well, from the material I have (mainly GT and some MT stuuf, as<BR>
><BR>
>>well as German CT) I always concluded that conoical Vargr are <BR>
>>_less_ tough than humans. Am I completely wrong here?<BR>
><BR>
> Well, what does tough mean?  There are different scales and<BR>
> concerns at issue, and any game can't model all of them well. <BR>
> At the higher damage scale, which Traveller tries to model, a<BR>
> Vargr is less tough than a Human in that a Vargr stops being<BR>
> able to function before a human as points of damage are applied.<BR>
>  <BR>
><BR>
> At the lower damage scale, which is irrelevant to Traveller's<BR>
> game mechanics, but important to role-playing, a human's skin<BR>
> breaks more easily than a Vargr's, and human has a lower pain<BR>
> threshhold than a Vargr.  Therefore, in a bar fight, the human<BR>
> is going to decide to quit fighting before a Vargr who has<BR>
> received the same minor hits (one can think of it as failing a<BR>
> morale check).<BR>
><BR>
> Real world examples can be found in comparing humans and dogs. <BR>
> A scratch that breaks my skin is merely stimulating to a dog.  A<BR>
> punch that bruises me to the bone might be only a minor surface<BR>
> bruise on a dog, if even that.  On the other hand, if I lose a<BR>
> pint of blood, I'm still conscious and functioning, and the dog<BR>
> is probably not.  <BR>
<BR>
I'll second the real world data points. A friend had a more or less<BR>
"tame" wolf. She was "tame" in that she treated us as pack members. So<BR>
we had to keep in mind "pack" rules. Including how to assume the "I<BR>
surrender" posture if she got over-enthusiastic when playing with us. <BR>
<BR>
I've got a couple of *scars* from playing with her. From toenails<BR>
ripping across my arm. No *real* damage, just scratches that drew<BR>
blood. But *she* wasn't injured. <BR>
<BR>
I suspect that Vargr would keep the "submission" posture from their<BR>
wolf ancestors. The posture is flat on your back, arms at your sides,<BR>
with your throat exposed. (And yes, it's scary the first time you do<BR>
this, even with a "tame" wolf. After that, you get used to it being<BR>
wolfish for "Uncle!")<BR>
<BR>
Refs might mention this submissive posture in passing and then see if<BR>
any PCs are both bright enough to remember, and brave enough to do it. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:00:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent Weapons<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> > Realistically, probably a flash of superheated air and an explosive<BR>
>> > crack.   Then again, realistically range for an X-ray laser in air is<BR>
>> > only a couple of meters, air is opaque to X-rays.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> At the required energy levels *air* isn't all that transparent to *light*!<BR>
><BR>
> Heh.  Well, we could be realistic and say 'lasers with non-nil penetration<BR>
> cannot be used in atmosphere due to superheating the air they pass through',<BR>
> but that's not much fun and isn't entirely true in any case (it depends on<BR>
> how the beam is focused).<BR>
<BR>
Oh, they are *usable*. But the beam path sticks out like a sore thumb. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 20:04:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT Stellar System Design<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>         There are way too many planets with atm 2-9 out of the habitable<BR>
>>>         zone.  I would suggest a table for such planets more like:<BR>
>>>              2D-2+Siz   Atm<BR>
>>>                 -3      0<BR>
>>>                 4-6     1<BR>
>>>                 7       2D-2+Siz<BR>
>>>                 8       A<BR>
>>>                 9       B<BR>
>>>                 10      C<BR>
>>>                 11      D<BR>
>>>                 12      E<BR>
>>>                 13      F<BR>
>>Do keep in mind the though that since they aren't in the "habitable"<BR>
>>zone, the roll can be considered to be solely for *pressure*, not for<BR>
>>breathability. <BR>
><BR>
>         This is true, and I had considered this table:<BR>
>                 1D      atm<BR>
>                 1       A<BR>
>                 2       A<BR>
>                 3       A<BR>
>                 4       roll normally<BR>
>                 5       1D: 1-5 = B, 6 = C<BR>
>                 6       1D: 1-3 = D, 4-5 = E, 6 = F<BR>
>         For atm A (or B, or C, including on main worlds) pressure could<BR>
>         be rolled separately.<BR>
<BR>
I meant that "normal" would mean same pressure as a normal atmosphere,<BR>
just not breathable. Ditto for thin, very thin, and thick. "Tainted"<BR>
would be kinda irrelevant, until and unless you tried to terraform the<BR>
place. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1996<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1997</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 4 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1997<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
Re: Silent weapons...<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
Re: Govornment Interest<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
Iowa class and Vietnam (was Re: Silent Firearms)<BR>
Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
Re: Silent weapons...<BR>
T4 and the maneuver rating<BR>
Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:51:39 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
At 7:51 PM -0800 3/3/2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>>>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1992<BR>
>>>Dunno. I presume they can be called as easily as any other<BR>
>>>numbers -- I was doing this 3 years ago, so perhaps cell phones<BR>
>><BR>
>>>weren't as common as they are becoming these days. Anybody out<BR>
>>>there with a cell phone ever been called by a telemarketer?<BR>
>><BR>
>>  I haven't, but my friend has.  This was probably a year ago.<BR>
>>  She said she became quite coldly enraged at the telemarketer:<BR>
>>  "Do you realize you've called a cell phone and that your attempt<BR>
>>  to sell me something is already costing me money?" or words to<BR>
>>  that effect. Then she hung up.<BR>
><BR>
>This is one of the reasons that just about everywhere *outside* North<BR>
>America charges the *caller* for calls to cell phones.<BR>
<BR>
The main reason is that cell phone companies want to reduce the<BR>
cost of ownership of cell phones so that more people will buy them.<BR>
Putting the cost of incoming calls on the caller completely<BR>
eliminates one of the costs to the owner without reducing the<BR>
income of the cell phone company.  Cell phone companies lobby<BR>
hard for caller pays for cell phones for this reason.  The direct<BR>
affect is more people get cell phones and cell phone companies<BR>
make more money.  It's even better in many countries because<BR>
there is little or no notification.  In the US, they're talking<BR>
about serious notification, like a voice which has to tell you<BR>
how much the call will cost you as the caller when you call a<BR>
cell phone.  The less notification, the more likely people are<BR>
to just make calls and pay the charge.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, most cell phone companies around here don't charge for<BR>
the first minute of an incoming call.  This is a much better<BR>
solution to the problem of unwanted calls.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 21:15:07 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent weapons...<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > Bit of both, I suspect...the New Jersey was on station offshore for much<BR>
> > of the war, and those 16 inchers have a helluva reach...<BR>
> <BR>
> Not really. With the rocket assist they added partway thru the war, max<BR>
> range was still under 30 miles.<BR>
<BR>
True, but remember, almost have of Viet Nam south of the DMZ is within<BR>
30 miles of the coast.  That's the down side to being a long skinny<BR>
country with miles of beachfront property. :^)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Somebody mentioned "Ortillary" and it occurred to me.  We've<BR>
been kicking around variations on silent weapons and haven't consider<BR>
that one, properly scaled down.  Remember the "flying crowbars" in<BR>
Larry Niven's "Footfall"?  Why not design something even smaller,<BR>
(say, a flying 1 ft. tungsten ruler?) that has enough chipped smarts<BR>
to home in on a man-sized target that's been "painted" with your<BR>
IR laser carbine (in low-power mode.)<BR>
<BR>
Just imagine: your on perimeter patrol, your EM alarm goes off but,<BR>
before you can respond, *POW!* Excedrin headache number infinity. :^)<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), GOA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 19:57:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
At 07:29 PM 3/3/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>On Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:28:31 -0800, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> machine exhorting me to vote for Willie Brown (who bought the election, <BR>
>> just like he always does.)<BR>
><BR>
>Hmmm... you'd think with all the attention Bill Clinton got a couple of<BR>
>years ago that a politician would be doomed to go by the name "Willie"...<BR>
<BR>
Willie Brown has run California politics since Clinton left law school. He<BR>
was speaker of the Assembly for well over a decade, by far the most<BR>
powerful man in Sacramento no matter who was Governor and when he left his<BR>
Assembly seat due to term limits he quickly became Mayor of SF.  Most<BR>
people call him Willie, though I prefer His Imperial Majesty Willie I, Lord<BR>
of all lands west of Emeryville to the Farallon Islands, Guardian of the<BR>
Golden Gate and Bay Bridges, Baron Treasure Island, and Defender of the<BR>
Uptrodden.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 06:49:51 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
Bolie Williams IV replied to Leonard Erickson:<BR>
> >This is one of the reasons that just about everywhere *outside*<BR>
> >North America charges the *caller* for calls to cell phones.<BR>
> <BR>
> The main reason is that cell phone companies want to reduce the<BR>
> cost of ownership of cell phones so that more people will buy them.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, here in Sweden it is always the caller who pays, regardless of<BR>
the type of phone (cellular or normal). Sounds quite reasonable to me,<BR>
since I am used to it.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 06:54:16 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: Govornment Interest<BR>
<BR>
Loren wrote:<BR>
> Working for GDW was enough to get most of us on a government list of<BR>
> "civilians who show an inordinate interest in military affairs" or so<BR>
> I am told . . .<BR>
> <BR>
> Heaven only knows what lists working for SJ Games has put me on!<BR>
<BR>
"People with conspiracy theories"<BR>
<BR>
"Proles not content with the greater order of things"<BR>
<BR>
"[fnord] with a large interest in [fnord]"<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 22:08:38 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 06:49:51 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bolie Williams IV replied to Leonard Erickson:<BR>
> > >This is one of the reasons that just about everywhere *outside*<BR>
> > >North America charges the *caller* for calls to cell phones.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > The main reason is that cell phone companies want to reduce the<BR>
> > cost of ownership of cell phones so that more people will buy them.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, here in Sweden it is always the caller who pays, regardless of<BR>
> the type of phone (cellular or normal). Sounds quite reasonable to me,<BR>
> since I am used to it.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Even calls from land lines?  Does the caller using the land line see<BR>
individual calls on his or her phone bill, or are these "costs" covered<BR>
under some sort of monthly bulk rate?<BR>
<BR>
I suppose this makes sense when Europeans are used to paying for internet<BR>
connect time *per minute*.  How do you pay for ISDN or other high speed<BR>
telephone line access?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
What is Life? It's the cereal Mikey likes.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 01:29:36 -0600<BR>
From: "Christopher Duden" <dude@citilink.com><BR>
Subject: Iowa class and Vietnam (was Re: Silent Firearms)<BR>
<BR>
A thought: 30 miles is still respectable against a country<BR>
as narrow as Vietnam- a not insignificant fraction<BR>
of the countryside (and major cities) fall within that<BR>
30 mile reach.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: With the advent of ortillery, *EVERYTHING* is<BR>
within range of a devestating weapons system (drop a<BR>
volkswagen, anyone?) available to whoever holds near<BR>
orbit. I would imagine that land battles would become<BR>
much more cat and mouse like...<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson sent forth:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) typed:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> >Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
>>> >entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
>>> ><BR>
>>> >- --<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>  Either this happened a LOT or it's the most common Vietnam War<BR>
>>> Urban Legend, as I've heard it from several different sources.  As it's<BR>
>>> always "a buddy" I suspect the latter...<BR>
>><BR>
>> Bit of both, I suspect...the New Jersey was on station offshore for much<BR>
>> of the war, and those 16 inchers have a helluva reach...<BR>
><BR>
>Not really. With the rocket assist they added partway thru the war, max<BR>
>range was still under 30 miles.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
___________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
0302 C66A667-B S kk- hi as va dr so++ zh++ vi- 833<BR>
IMTU: tc++(**) mt(++) tn tg t4-- tt ru he<BR>
<BR>
PGP Fingerprint:<BR>
25CB CEA7 63E8 3369 C6CDF3EE 55E0 59DA 577B 92C6<BR>
<BR>
ICQ: 836814<BR>
___________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 05:57:02 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: A 21C Heresy<BR>
<BR>
At 09:36 PM 2/24/00 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
>Hi all,<BR>
>There have been various threads recently about TL 9 "hard science" games,<BR>
>and lots of stuff on where habitable worlds would be, and so on, so I got<BR>
>thinking about possible future history settings for such games.  Here's one<BR>
>chain of thought I've had:<BR>
><BR>
>- First of all, this is not _anything_ like the OTU.  No Vilani, no<BR>
>Ancients, no Imperium, etc.  It's an expansion from Earth, in the not too<BR>
>distant future.<BR>
<BR>
        [snip]<BR>
 <BR>
>Anyway, this is how I would go about doing a heretical 21st century<BR>
>setting.  If anyone else wants to talk about their ideas, they should feel<BR>
>free to do so - I would be interested.<BR>
><BR>
>Alan Bradley<BR>
>alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
><BR>
        <BR>
        Hi, Alan!<BR>
        Sorry it has taken me so long to answer you...  work has been<BR>
STUUUUPID lately.<BR>
        Anyway, why don't you drop by my website (see URL in SIG) and take a<BR>
look at my own 21C Heresy, "TNEC:2099" (The Near Earth Campaign:2099).  It<BR>
is heavily not OTU, although I have the millieu sitting on top of canon<BR>
Book1-8 rules.<BR>
        Please take a look and let me know what you think!<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			       ....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Cyberpunk:  	http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020<BR>
	Traveller:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller<BR>
	AD&D:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/adnd_eurania<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 05:09:07 -0500<BR>
From: "Josh W. Spencer" <macmanjws@earthlink.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ObTrav: Calling for fire support and getting a *major* ortillery strike<BR>
> on the target. Just to help scale things, remember that Meteor Crater<BR>
> in Arizona was created by a body about the size of a house.... Or was<BR>
> it the size of a car? Either way, that's something a ship *could* launch.<BR>
<BR>
This is why wars between civilizations which utilize mass driver technology<BR>
would be awful. Of course if only one side has it, "game over man!" Think of<BR>
the Centauri (from B5).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Josh W. Spencer (macmanjws@earthlink.net)<BR>
Ypsilanti, Michigan, USA<BR>
http://home.earthlink.net/~macmanjws<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 10:30:36 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
At 17:16 03.03.00 -0500, Steve Daniels wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Hi!<BR>
>><BR>
>> Looking at early Ziru Sirka maps and the maps of the empires that followed<BR>
>> it, I've asked myself one thing:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Why the hell did the Vilani (and their followers) insist on settling more<BR>
>> and more rimward, but far less to corward, spinward or trailing? Locically,<BR>
>> they should have expanded more in a circular way, shouldn't they?<BR>
><BR>
>No.  Logically, they should expand towards areas of increasing<BR>
>resource density.  More stars likely to have habitable planets,<BR>
>closer together.  Several medium size rifts to trailing suggests<BR>
>going elsewhere.<BR>
<BR>
You mean they sent expeditions to corward, spinward and trailing, who then<BR>
found the rifts, and when returning home told the story of "there's no<BR>
profit out there?"<BR>
<BR>
Hm. At least they should have found out somewhen that there _are_ paths<BR>
through the various rifts. And we all know stories about Vilani settlements<BR>
in Corridor and even Deneb. And that it's cheaper for a merchant line to<BR>
make trade with/sttle worlds in the Spinward Marches from Vland than with<BR>
Solomani Rim. <BR>
<BR>
Well, obviously the Vilani did _not_ expand the way at least I would have<BR>
expected. So if my players ask me, what could I tell them? Any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:11:45 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
At 20:15 03.03.00 -0800, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Then there is another question: <BR>
>> <BR>
>> By the time the 3I was established, corward expansion beyond Rule Of Man<BR>
>> territory was impossible due to the Vargr there.They _did_ expand to<BR>
>> spinward and they _did_ expand towards the rim, even farther than the<BR>
>> Terrans had done. But what they somehow avoided was expansion from Core to<BR>
>> trailing? There are only a few minor states there by 1115, and the Two<BR>
>> Thousand Worlds are far enough away to allow at least to take another two<BR>
>> sectors or so. Especially the Archdukes of the Domain of Gateway should<BR>
>> have had an interest in expanding his domain, to make them more powerful<BR>
>> within the Imperium. What stopped Imperial expansion here, almost right<BR>
>> behind Core's very own backyard?<BR>
><BR>
>The only answer I can suggest is that the Third Imperium was simply "tired"<BR>
>and happy with it's current size.  The Rebellion showed how sensitive a<BR>
>star-spanning empire of 11,000 worlds is-- imagine trying to hold together<BR>
>12,000 worlds...<BR>
<BR>
:-)<BR>
Okay, but if _you_ were the Archduke of Gateway in the year, say, 300, and<BR>
you had some ressources at your hands to expand your power and wealth<BR>
within the Imperium just by expanding, wouldn't you do what you can to get<BR>
those other two sectors of your official domain into the empire?<BR>
<BR>
IMO it is more likely that Imperial expansion would have stopped just at<BR>
Terra in such a case. Those sectors beyond Solmani Rim are much farer away<BR>
from Sylea/Capital than Gateway, Crucis Margin and the like.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:12:11 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
At 15:59 03.03.00 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> Why the hell did the Vilani (and their followers) insist on settling more<BR>
>> and more rimward, but far less to corward, spinward or trailing? Locically,<BR>
>> they should have expanded more in a circular way, shouldn't they?<BR>
><BR>
>Well, the Vargr Extents (which were around for the 1st Imperium as well<BR>
>as the 3rd) coreward would slow them down..spinward you get into the<BR>
>Great Rift; don't forget, the Vilani only had Jump 2.... <BR>
<BR>
And at 20:15 03.03.00 -0800, James W. Lindsay wrote about the same subject:<BR>
<BR>
>This one is actually vaguely explained in canon:<BR>
><BR>
>"Almost two-thirds of the planets in the Vland sector can be reached from<BR>
>Vland by a series of one-parsec jumps."<BR>
><BR>
>When the Vilani first developed the jump drive they were limited to jumps<BR>
>of only one parsec.  Studying the sector map of Vland shows that the Vilani<BR>
>ran out of systems that they could reach both coreward and spinward almost<BR>
>immediately, while those rimward-- and to a lesser extent, trailing-- were<BR>
>in much greater abundance.  <BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
>Studying the dot map further, the star density seems much less dense<BR>
>coreward into the Vargr Extents (whom the Vilani were NOT aware of) and<BR>
>spinward into Corridor sector.  While expanding coreward wouldn't be<BR>
>impossible (with multiple jump-1s spanning the many two-parsec jumps), it<BR>
>wouldn't be nearly as profitable.<BR>
<BR>
That is one other thing I sometimes ask myself: If you have just jump-2 or<BR>
even only jump-1 technology, what hinders you to use several loads of fuel<BR>
and effectively make a jump-6 through deep space?<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I kow what you'll say, it's not very economic to use a jump-3 route<BR>
this way, especially if there are other jump-1 or jump-2 routes out there. <BR>
<BR>
But what is really cheaper: Imagine you have a colony at the edge of the<BR>
Ziru Sirka, somewhere in Corridor sector. The next free, unpossessed world<BR>
is, say, 4 parsecs away, with only deep space between your colony and it.<BR>
<BR>
Now assume a portion of your population wants to found a new colony<BR>
somewhere out there, they don't care where, as long as it'll be their _own_<BR>
planet. What would they do? Take a liner to the other end of Vland sector<BR>
to settle another world along the Vilani Main (which is almost a year of<BR>
travel away!), or take a liner with extra fuel instead of cargo space to<BR>
settle a system four weeks away from you? <BR>
<BR>
Even if you take into account that cargo space will be more expensive on a<BR>
"4 jump-1 ship" than on a regular liner, it sounds to me fairly reasonable<BR>
that the colonists will use the latter option. And shortly thereafter, the<BR>
Ziru Sirka will claim the world for itself, at least during its initial<BR>
phase of expansion.<BR>
<BR>
Now there is another question: Assume the 3I builds a Rift-crosser: A ship<BR>
with jump-1, but fuel capacitiy for eight jumps. (Should be practicable<BR>
with a 300 ton hull, I think.) Now let's look at the map of charted space:<BR>
Such a courier could make it from the Gushemege-near part of Reft sector to<BR>
the other side within perhaps 20 weeks (for an Xboat-like net of ships, of<BR>
course), whereas the regular Xboat way would need cruise around the whole<BR>
Great rift, thereby needing a total of about 30 to 40 weeks. <BR>
<BR>
And of course, deep space bases: Building and maintaining bases at jump-4<BR>
distances throughout the Great Rift could be much cheaper than only using<BR>
planets. _Especially_ if you are willing to let civilian merchant craft use<BR>
these bases, too (for a fee, of course).<BR>
<BR>
Plus, of course, the military aspect: Having deep space bases at strategic<BR>
points in deep space (where they are virtually unattackable, as long as the<BR>
enemy doesn't know their exact position) might be a major asset. (Look at<BR>
sthe Spinward Marches  and remeber the Frontier Wars, for example.) And of<BR>
course there will be tenders, specifically built as "mobile deep space<BR>
bases" (which is probably cheaper, if I think it over...)<BR>
<BR>
Is it just my few books, or are these ideas not used in canon material as<BR>
much as they should be?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:11:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 06:49:51 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Bolie Williams IV replied to Leonard Erickson:<BR>
>> > >This is one of the reasons that just about everywhere *outside*<BR>
>> > >North America charges the *caller* for calls to cell phones.<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > The main reason is that cell phone companies want to reduce the<BR>
>> > cost of ownership of cell phones so that more people will buy them.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Actually, here in Sweden it is always the caller who pays, regardless of<BR>
>> the type of phone (cellular or normal). Sounds quite reasonable to me,<BR>
>> since I am used to it.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Even calls from land lines?  Does the caller using the land line see<BR>
> individual calls on his or her phone bill, or are these "costs" covered<BR>
> under some sort of monthly bulk rate?<BR>
<BR>
Most European calls, even what we'd consider "local" calls are charged<BR>
in units. Every X amount of time, the counter ticks off a unit. X is<BR>
shorter the farther away the place you are calling is. <BR>
<BR>
On older exchanges, the description above was *literally* true. There<BR>
was a meter attached to your line at the central office, and it "ticked<BR>
faster" the greater the distance (some trick with line loading or<BR>
something). <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, what you get is a bill noting that over the course of the<BR>
month, you've used XX number of units, which amounts to a charge of YY.<BR>
Period. *NO* details.<BR>
<BR>
I'm told this is partly in reaction to the way the Germans misused the<BR>
old style billing systems that *did* log who you called. During WWII<BR>
having a record of who you called could get you killed.<BR>
<BR>
> I suppose this makes sense when Europeans are used to paying for internet<BR>
> connect time *per minute*.  How do you pay for ISDN or other high speed<BR>
> telephone line access?<BR>
<BR>
Same way they pall for *all* calls. At so many "units" per minute.<BR>
<BR>
As you'll discover in the telecom groups (and in Fidonet's<BR>
international echoes) folks outside the US and Canada have *real*<BR>
trouble grasping the way we pay for phone service here. They just don't<BR>
"get" the idea of unlimited local calling for a fixed monthly rate. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 02:21:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silent weapons...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> > Bit of both, I suspect...the New Jersey was on station offshore for much<BR>
>> > of the war, and those 16 inchers have a helluva reach...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Not really. With the rocket assist they added partway thru the war, max<BR>
>> range was still under 30 miles.<BR>
><BR>
> True, but remember, almost have of Viet Nam south of the DMZ is within<BR>
> 30 miles of the coast.  That's the down side to being a long skinny<BR>
> country with miles of beachfront property. :^)<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav: Somebody mentioned "Ortillary" and it occurred to me.  We've<BR>
> been kicking around variations on silent weapons and haven't consider<BR>
> that one, properly scaled down.  Remember the "flying crowbars" in<BR>
> Larry Niven's "Footfall"?  Why not design something even smaller,<BR>
> (say, a flying 1 ft. tungsten ruler?) that has enough chipped smarts<BR>
> to home in on a man-sized target that's been "painted" with your<BR>
> IR laser carbine (in low-power mode.)<BR>
><BR>
> Just imagine: your on perimeter patrol, your EM alarm goes off but,<BR>
> before you can respond, *POW!* Excedrin headache number infinity. :^)<BR>
<BR>
Ortillery isn't stealthy. At least not until you make it *so* draggy<BR>
that it's hard to aim. <BR>
<BR>
For "normal" impact velocities, you'll have this bright white "line"<BR>
stretching from the target to space, sort of like the Finger of God.<BR>
And the sonic boom doesn't help. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, think of the effect on low-tech natives. Here's this<BR>
person or building that has been destroyed by something that looks a<BR>
bit like lightning, but unlike lightning is *absolutely straight*. <BR>
<BR>
Two guesses what *they* are gonna think! <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:00:53 -0500<BR>
From: "Chauncey Smith" <csmith@ICDC.com><BR>
Subject: T4 and the maneuver rating<BR>
<BR>
I got a copy of Imperial Squadrons and it calls for me to have some numbers<BR>
I can't figure out how to calculate in the book. one of those is the<BR>
maneuver number, the power number and a thing called P on what is called the<BR>
traveller star ship card. Can someone help me find the book that I should be<BR>
looking in for these calculations?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:23:09 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> Now assume a portion of your population wants to found a new colony<BR>
> somewhere out there, they don't care where, as long as it'll be their<BR>
_own_<BR>
> planet. What would they do? Take a liner to the other end of Vland sector<BR>
> to settle another world along the Vilani Main (which is almost a year of<BR>
> travel away!), or take a liner with extra fuel instead of cargo space to<BR>
> settle a system four weeks away from you?<BR>
<BR>
It would have to be a self-sufficient colony, because it would receive no<BR>
merchant traffic.  No merchant could afford four weeks out and four weeks<BR>
back to make one round of trade!<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> Now there is another question: Assume the 3I builds a Rift-crosser: A ship<BR>
> with jump-1, but fuel capacitiy for eight jumps. (Should be practicable<BR>
> with a 300 ton hull, I think.) Now let's look at the map of charted space:<BR>
> Such a courier could make it from the Gushemege-near part of Reft sector<BR>
to<BR>
> the other side within perhaps 20 weeks (for an Xboat-like net of ships, of<BR>
> course), whereas the regular Xboat way would need cruise around the whole<BR>
> Great rift, thereby needing a total of about 30 to 40 weeks.<BR>
><BR>
> And of course, deep space bases: Building and maintaining bases at jump-4<BR>
> distances throughout the Great Rift could be much cheaper than only using<BR>
> planets. _Especially_ if you are willing to let civilian merchant craft<BR>
use<BR>
> these bases, too (for a fee, of course).<BR>
<BR>
Why build such an expensive beast?  The rift is a good protective barrier,<BR>
like a range of mountains at your back.  Crossing it is not worth the risk,<BR>
especially when there are still easily accessible worlds in any other<BR>
direction.<BR>
<BR>
> Plus, of course, the military aspect: Having deep space bases at strategic<BR>
> points in deep space (where they are virtually unattackable, as long as<BR>
the<BR>
> enemy doesn't know their exact position) might be a major asset. (Look at<BR>
> sthe Spinward Marches  and remeber the Frontier Wars, for example.) And of<BR>
> course there will be tenders, specifically built as "mobile deep space<BR>
> bases" (which is probably cheaper, if I think it over...)<BR>
<BR>
And why waste resources by sending them to remote areas like that?  They are<BR>
basically out of action if placed out in the rift.  A couple of SDB's at the<BR>
end point of a potential rift crossing would suffice to discourage any<BR>
attacks across that channel.  Too expensive.  Remember, it was so expensive<BR>
to trade with the orient from Western Europe that Columbus chanced the<BR>
unknown looking for a cheaper way to get there!<BR>
<BR>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Colin Michael, WebDev<BR>
www.downport.com<BR>
The Traveller Domain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 01:36:37 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
From:           	shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Date sent:      	Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:40:40 PST<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey, which dropped an<BR>
> entire broadside on that poor little hill...<BR>
<BR>
There is a story from Normandy (D-Day). HMS Rodney was being <BR>
spotted by an aerial AOP. After some minutes of "Up 1", they <BR>
finally asked what they were firing at, only to be told in a dead calm <BR>
voice "A motor-cycle and sidecar".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 01:36:37 +1300<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Fri, 03 Mar 2000 18:00:28 -0800<BR>
From:           	Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
> In the gaming world, I once had one of my T2000 players use a Hellfire on<BR>
> the tree that a bad guy was behind after said bad guy "Scratched my<BR>
> tank!!!!" (words of the player).  I think Masamune Shirow heard about this,<BR>
> and used it as a basis for Leona's (Tank Police) personality :)<BR>
<BR>
During the Paific War, the 3rd NZ division regulary used .55 Boyes <BR>
AT rifles to deal with Japanese snipers (he's behind a tree, never <BR>
mind).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc<BR>
Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
 "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
 always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:34:28 -0500<BR>
From: "James Earl" <jearl@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ain't Technology wonderful<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >> On Fri, 03 Mar 2000, James Earl wrote:<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> >>>> It's trivial to get a list of which exchanges in an areacode are<BR>
> >>>> cellular. Cell phones *aren't* on the same exchanges as regular<BR>
> >>>> phones.<BR>
> >>>> Ditto for pagers.<BR>
> >>><BR>
> >>> That's not exactly true, in either case. There are many cell phone<BR>
> >>> and pager companies that will only buy parts of a 10000 number<BR>
> >>> exchange from the local phone company. This is becoming much more<BR>
> >>> rare now than it used to be, but it still exists. The cell phone<BR>
> >>> company that I handle call routing for has a number of split<BR>
> >>> exchanges that we share with the phone company, a legacy of the old<BR>
> >>> days.<BR>
><BR>
> But does the phone company have regular numbers on the rest of that<BR>
> exchange, or their own cellular service, or other "odd numbers"?<BR>
><BR>
> In any case, with "number portability", this is going to go away soon.<BR>
><BR>
In the specific cases I'm talking about, the phone company has regular<BR>
numbers in the exchanges we share with them, which is a hassle for everyone<BR>
concerned. And you're right, if number portability does happen as<BR>
envisioned, a lot of these problems will go away.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1997<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1998</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 4 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1998<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
RE: fission power for space craft<BR>
Re: CT Reprints<BR>
Thanks to all who participated in my DGP auction<BR>
Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
Re: Keith Brothers Supplement, Last update<BR>
re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
Gashikan Empire?<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent weapons...<BR>
Re: T4 and the maneuver rating<BR>
Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:48:56 -0500<BR>
From: "James Earl" <jearl@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > ObTrav: Calling for fire support and getting a *major* ortillery strike<BR>
> > on the target. Just to help scale things, remember that Meteor Crater<BR>
> > in Arizona was created by a body about the size of a house.... Or was<BR>
> > it the size of a car? Either way, that's something a ship *could*<BR>
launch.<BR>
><BR>
> This is why wars between civilizations which utilize mass driver<BR>
technology<BR>
> would be awful. Of course if only one side has it, "game over man!" Think<BR>
of<BR>
> the Centauri (from B5).<BR>
<BR>
I would imagine that high-tech wars would be a highly fluid affair, with no<BR>
large masses of troops on the ground. The bulk of the fighting would<BR>
undoubtedly take place in near-orbit, until one side achieved local orbital<BR>
superiority.....at which point, as  you say, it's probably "game over man!".<BR>
If neither side can achieve orbital superiority, or the side that does<BR>
doesn't have the resources to provide adequate ortillery support, then we<BR>
might see something along the lines of a classical ground campaign.<BR>
<BR>
The B5 situation you mentioned is a good example....the Narn more than<BR>
likely had the same capabilities as the Centauri at the start of their war.<BR>
Had there not been interference from the Shadows, we could just have easily<BR>
seen Narn cruisers flinging big rocks down onto Centauri Prime. Once the<BR>
Centauri achieved orbital superiority over the Narn homeworld, they<BR>
basically bombed them into submission with mass drivers, THEN sent in the<BR>
troops to mop up.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:36:10 +0100<BR>
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> Anyway, what you get is a bill noting that over the course of the<BR>
> month, you've used XX number of units, which amounts to a charge of<BR>
> YY. Period. *NO* details.<BR>
<BR>
It is possible (for a small extra fee) to get a listing of all calls<BR>
with your bill. You can instead get the bill split in sections (mobile,<BR>
land lines, international) if you don't want to log *every* detail.<BR>
<BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 10:52:51 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: fission power for space craft<BR>
<BR>
At 02:45 PM 2/27/00 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> >> And I'm almost certain I wouldn't put it on a lawn mower.<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > Cooling?  What cooling? You're in space.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Lawns in space? ;)<BR>
><BR>
>Yeah, made of astro-turf.<BR>
><BR>
>Frankie<BR>
><BR>
        Direct-hit.  Keyboard replacement required.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 10:52:50 -0400<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints<BR>
<BR>
At 07:51 PM 2/27/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Well, the CT reprints came on Saturday! My only prior experience with<BR>
>that style of character generation was T4, and I must say that I<BR>
>definitely prefer CT. So, quick question... Is there a free program<BR>
>anywhere out there that manages CT character generation?<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks,<BR>
>Andrew<BR>
><BR>
        You might want to check out my shareware product, CT CharGen.  Its<BR>
available at my website (see URL in SIG) for DL.<BR>
<BR>
        --Michel<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			       ....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Cyberpunk:  	http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020<BR>
	Traveller:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller<BR>
	AD&D:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/adnd_eurania<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 14:57:00 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Thanks to all who participated in my DGP auction<BR>
<BR>
Thanks all to all to participated in my friend's DGP auction.  Complete <BR>
address details will go momementary.  Once the cheques are recieved...items <BR>
will go out.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 16:19:32 +0100<BR>
From: Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
At 07:23 04.03.00 -0500, Colin Michael wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>> Now assume a portion of your population wants to found a new colony<BR>
>> somewhere out there, they don't care where, as long as it'll be their<BR>
>_own_<BR>
>> planet. What would they do? Take a liner to the other end of Vland sector<BR>
>> to settle another world along the Vilani Main (which is almost a year of<BR>
>> travel away!), or take a liner with extra fuel instead of cargo space to<BR>
>> settle a system four weeks away from you?<BR>
><BR>
>It would have to be a self-sufficient colony, because it would receive no<BR>
>merchant traffic.  No merchant could afford four weeks out and four weeks<BR>
>back to make one round of trade!<BR>
<BR>
That heavily depends on the nature of goods that the new colony produces in<BR>
relationship to the distance of other possible sources for these products<BR>
to the "home world". Generally, you are quite right, though. Didn't think<BR>
of that.<BR>
<BR>
[snip-Rift crosser vessels and deep space bases]<BR>
<BR>
>Why build such an expensive beast?  The rift is a good protective barrier,<BR>
>like a range of mountains at your back.  Crossing it is not worth the risk,<BR>
>especially when there are still easily accessible worlds in any other<BR>
>direction.<BR>
<BR>
We are talking about two provinces of a very large empire. Communication,<BR>
perhaps even the ability to reinforce Domain Of Deneb fleets via this "rift<BR>
shortcut", can be a question of survival for that empire.<BR>
<BR>
[snip-military deep space bases and tenders]<BR>
>And why waste resources by sending them to remote areas like that?  They are<BR>
>basically out of action if placed out in the rift.  A couple of SDB's at the<BR>
>end point of a potential rift crossing would suffice to discourage any<BR>
>attacks across that channel.  Too expensive.  Remember, it was so expensive<BR>
>to trade with the orient from Western Europe that Columbus chanced the<BR>
>unknown looking for a cheaper way to get there!<BR>
<BR>
Oops, I was mixing things here: What I meant was that military deep space<BR>
bases /tenders might even make sense in non-rift areas. Imagine: A mobile<BR>
resupply base, somewhere in deep space between the many heavily-defendend<BR>
system of an enemy empire. A good point to prepare an attack, to assmeble<BR>
your fleet before the strike. And normally the enemy won't know the exact<BR>
position, so even if he has a fleet that can attack you before you are<BR>
ready, he simply doesn't know where. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
For Iridium Throne and glory!<BR>
  ingo heinscher ;-)                          <BR>
<BR>
Tuppdehler vitte ognorierem!<BR>
... und nicht vergessen: _Alles_ ist Meinung. Sogar Physik.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:34:59 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
At 8:56 -0500 4/3/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > I suppose this makes sense when Europeans are used to paying for internet<BR>
> > connect time *per minute*.  How do you pay for ISDN or other high speed<BR>
> > telephone line access?<BR>
><BR>
>Same way they pall for *all* calls. At so many "units" per minute.<BR>
<BR>
ADSL is rolling out at a flat monthly rate, IIRC.<BR>
ISDN is offered at a rate which includes a number of hours free per month.<BR>
Normal phone lines charge per minute.<BR>
Some Telcos (cable companies) offer free local or in-house calls.<BR>
<BR>
All in the UK.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>As you'll discover in the telecom groups (and in Fidonet's<BR>
>international echoes) folks outside the US and Canada have *real*<BR>
>trouble grasping the way we pay for phone service here. They just don't<BR>
>"get" the idea of unlimited local calling for a fixed monthly rate.<BR>
<BR>
Nope, we *get* the idea, we just don't *get* offered the service.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>- --<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:31:37 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
At 8:56 -0500 4/3/00, Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote:<BR>
>Now there is another question: Assume the 3I builds a Rift-crosser: A ship<BR>
>with jump-1, but fuel capacitiy for eight jumps. (Should be practicable<BR>
>with a 300 ton hull, I think.) Now let's look at the map of charted space:<BR>
>Such a courier could make it from the Gushemege-near part of Reft sector to<BR>
>the other side within perhaps 20 weeks (for an Xboat-like net of ships, of<BR>
>course), whereas the regular Xboat way would need cruise around the whole<BR>
>Great rift, thereby needing a total of about 30 to 40 weeks.<BR>
<BR>
 From HG2;<BR>
<BR>
J-drive  1		9% hull volume<BR>
M-Drive 1		7% hull volume<BR>
Power Plant 1	between 1% (TL15) and 3% (TL12)<BR>
Bridge		2% or 20 dT<BR>
Fuel		80% (8 x J1)<BR>
<BR>
So you've reached about 100% volume with no living accommodation, <BR>
cargo space, computer etc.<BR>
<BR>
You may be able do it but It's going to be a big ship...<BR>
<BR>
You can *just* do it at TL15 using QSDS 1.5 (T4) but the ship is very <BR>
very primitive and cramped.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Plus, of course, the military aspect: Having deep space bases at strategic<BR>
>points in deep space (where they are virtually unattackable, as long as the<BR>
>enemy doesn't know their exact position) might be a major asset. (Look at<BR>
>sthe Spinward Marches  and remeber the Frontier Wars, for example.) And of<BR>
>course there will be tenders, specifically built as "mobile deep space<BR>
>bases" (which is probably cheaper, if I think it over...)<BR>
><BR>
>Is it just my few books, or are these ideas not used in canon material as<BR>
>much as they should be?<BR>
<BR>
Calibration Points are classified <grin> Please go with the nice man <BR>
from the Imperial MoJ...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:39:11 EST<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Keith Brothers Supplement, Last update<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 3/3/00 5:24:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, you probably want to completely forget about it for a while, but it<BR>
>  might be helpful for other budding self-publishers out there if you wrote a<BR>
>  short piece on the process, the problems you had, anything you'd do<BR>
>  differently if you did it again, etc. (And I don't mind if you mention me <BR>
as<BR>
>  one of the problems <grin>)<BR>
<BR>
I can tell you the biggest one. Don't count on Speedy and Accurate <BR>
OCRing.......<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:12:56 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
At 20:22 -0500 3/3/00, Ingo Heinscher <Hiroshi.Estigarribia@gmx.de> wrote:<BR>
>Why the hell did the Vilani (and their followers) insist on settling more<BR>
>and more rimward, but far less to corward, spinward or trailing? Locically,<BR>
>they should have expanded more in a circular way, shouldn't they?<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily - remember that they are initially limited to the J1 <BR>
mains, maybe double jumping via empty hexes to cross between mains. <BR>
J2 came along later and would have initially been limited in <BR>
availability to the bureaux and military.<BR>
<BR>
>By the time the 3I was established, corward expansion beyond Rule Of Man<BR>
>territory was impossible due to the Vargr there.They _did_ expand to<BR>
>spinward and they _did_ expand towards the rim, even farther than the<BR>
>Terrans had done.<BR>
<BR>
Debatable - Terra is integrated in 588 Imperial (Annexed! from a <BR>
Solomani view point) and we don't know how much of what would become <BR>
the Solomani Autonomous Region in the 700s, and the Solomani <BR>
Confederation after the Great Patriotic War (aka the Rim War) was (a) <BR>
already settled during the Ziru Sirka, (b) resettled after Year 0 <BR>
when Terra was expanding or (c) expanded post annexation, sorry, <BR>
integration.<BR>
<BR>
Remember that Cleon drew a line limiting expansion which excluded <BR>
Terra's sphere of influence, and that canon has it that the exact <BR>
location of Terra was unconfirmed.<BR>
<BR>
The Missouri Archive has a GIF map (by leroy?) showing the mains in <BR>
known space.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 14:04:14 GMT<BR>
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> As you'll discover in the telecom groups (and in Fidonet's<BR>
> international echoes) folks outside the US and Canada have *real*<BR>
> trouble grasping the way we pay for phone service here. They just don't<BR>
> "get" the idea of unlimited local calling for a fixed monthly rate. <BR>
> <BR>
In the UK, all calls are charged per second instead of per unit,<BR>
although the difference is largely semantic.<BR>
<BR>
Often thee's some call time bundled into the fixed rate but it does<BR>
look like something like unlimited free local calls will arrive, at least<BR>
for internat access.<BR>
<BR>
However, all mobile phones in the UK have a distinct number range (07...)<BR>
so you always know if you are calling mobile. Unless you're accessing<BR>
one through a more expensive (08... or 09...) service.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo<BR>
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division<BR>
"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:34:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Troy Bradley <gladiator1999@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Gashikan Empire?<BR>
<BR>
New to this forum and was wondering if anyone has done<BR>
anything with the Second Gashikan Empire? Any reply<BR>
would be greatly appreciated! Troy<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:19:33<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
At 10:30 AM 3/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, obviously the Vilani did _not_ expand the way at least I would have<BR>
>expected. So if my players ask me, what could I tell them? Any suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
Consider the Vilani mindset.  Traditional Vilani wouldn't understand Sir<BR>
Edmund Hillary climbing Everest, but would understand Cristobal Columbo.<BR>
<BR>
Columbus was attempting to make a know trade source more efficient, and<BR>
therefore more profitable.  America just happened to get in the way, bring<BR>
the joys of tobacco, tomatoes and chocolate to the Old World.<BR>
<BR>
Hillary climbed mountain because they were there. An unforgivable waste of<BR>
resources. Where's the pay back? Want to see the world from 29,014 feet?<BR>
Take a commercial jet and look out the windows!<BR>
<BR>
As I see it, Vilani exploration would be very slow and methodical,<BR>
examining each system in close detail, preparing reports on the commercial<BR>
benefits and costs, and delivering them to pointy-haired bosses.  This<BR>
could explain why the Vilani were already at Barnard's Star but hadn't even<BR>
visited Sol yet. It wasn't on the schedule.<BR>
<BR>
My .02 Cr on the Vilani HQ at Dingir issue. Since Imperium starts at the<BR>
beginning of the First Interstellar War, and has the Terrans already having<BR>
several colonies placed, I see Dingir as being a forward HQ, set up to deal<BR>
with this rather unsettling development.<BR>
<BR>
So Vilani expansion to trailing would be extremely slow if there wasn't an<BR>
easy, profitable route available. That's not to say the individuals and<BR>
groups didn't break with tradition and strike out in those directions. We<BR>
know, for example, the Sky Raiders escaped the Vilani by fleeing Spinward.<BR>
There might be any number of "lost colonies" out there.  This would be a<BR>
good theme for a M:0 game, actually.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:28:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 05:09 AM 3/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This is why wars between civilizations which utilize mass driver technology<BR>
>would be awful. Of course if only one side has it, "game over man!" Think of<BR>
>the Centauri (from B5).<BR>
<BR>
Aiiieeee!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:41:27<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 08:48 AM 3/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I would imagine that high-tech wars would be a highly fluid affair, with no<BR>
>large masses of troops on the ground. The bulk of the fighting would<BR>
>undoubtedly take place in near-orbit, until one side achieved local orbital<BR>
>superiority.....at which point, as  you say, it's probably "game over man!".<BR>
<BR>
"You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it<BR>
and wipe it clean of life -- but if you desire to defend it, protect it,<BR>
and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the<BR>
Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud."<BR>
T.R. Fehrenbach's "This Kind of War:  A Study in Unpreparedness"<BR>
<BR>
(also the header for Chapter 1 of Ground Forces)<BR>
<BR>
Saddam Hussein lost air superiority 15 minutes after the first aircraft<BR>
entered Iraqi airspace. We had uncontested control of the air. Yet it<BR>
wasn't until Desert Sabre rolled that we actually dislodged the Iraqi<BR>
troops from Kuwait.<BR>
<BR>
If all you have is orbital superiority, and the world is self-suffcient,<BR>
you have two choices. You either sit there in orbit not controlling the<BR>
world, or your wipe it clean of life.<BR>
<BR>
Grav influenced warfare is very fluid. Divisions fight on fronts running<BR>
hundreds of miles, but right at the edge of battle, things don't change<BR>
much. Grav vehicles will take advantage of terrain to hide and execute<BR>
pop-up attacks. The infantry will deploy with anti-armor missiles, and call<BR>
in artillery/ortillery. Infantry will also handle objectives that aren't<BR>
appropriate for the heavy armor. Cities, starports, industrial areas.. the<BR>
things you came here for.<BR>
<BR>
>If neither side can achieve orbital superiority, or the side that does<BR>
>doesn't have the resources to provide adequate ortillery support, then we<BR>
>might see something along the lines of a classical ground campaign.<BR>
<BR>
Even with complete orbital control, you don't own the ground.<BR>
<BR>
>The B5 situation you mentioned is a good example....the Narn more than<BR>
>likely had the same capabilities as the Centauri at the start of their war.<BR>
>Had there not been interference from the Shadows, we could just have easily<BR>
>seen Narn cruisers flinging big rocks down onto Centauri Prime. Once the<BR>
>Centauri achieved orbital superiority over the Narn homeworld, they<BR>
>basically bombed them into submission with mass drivers, THEN sent in the<BR>
>troops to mop up.<BR>
<BR>
And still the Narn resisted. To the point where there were entire<BR>
battlecruisers wandering around and Centauri reprisals against the civilians.<BR>
<BR>
Take for example the Battle of Britain.  Far from weakening British<BR>
resolve, the Blitz hardened morale and determination. You are still in the<BR>
situation of having to either fight a ground campaign or be prepared to<BR>
keep that fleet in orbit a long time.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:43:27<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent weapons...<BR>
<BR>
At 02:21 AM 3/4/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On the other hand, think of the effect on low-tech natives. Here's this<BR>
>person or building that has been destroyed by something that looks a<BR>
>bit like lightning, but unlike lightning is *absolutely straight*. <BR>
><BR>
>Two guesses what *they* are gonna think! <BR>
<BR>
Leonard, I award you with the Legion of Evil Idea Generation, 1st Class,<BR>
with Clusters.<BR>
<BR>
That just gave me a wicked idea for a M:0 scenario...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:45:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: T4 and the maneuver rating<BR>
<BR>
At 07:00 AM 3/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>I got a copy of Imperial Squadrons and it calls for me to have some numbers<BR>
>I can't figure out how to calculate in the book. one of those is the<BR>
>maneuver number, the power number and a thing called P on what is called the<BR>
>traveller star ship card. Can someone help me find the book that I should be<BR>
>looking in for these calculations?<BR>
<BR>
My ship designs were mangled by IG. The starship cards are a sick and<BR>
twisted joke.<BR>
<BR>
I'll dig out my copy, and see if I still have the orginmal design specs<BR>
somewhere. Might be a good project to redo those four ships this weekend.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 09:06:18<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
At 11:12 AM 3/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>That is one other thing I sometimes ask myself: If you have just jump-2 or<BR>
>even only jump-1 technology, what hinders you to use several loads of fuel<BR>
>and effectively make a jump-6 through deep space?<BR>
<BR>
Time and risk.<BR>
<BR>
>But what is really cheaper: Imagine you have a colony at the edge of the<BR>
>Ziru Sirka, somewhere in Corridor sector. The next free, unpossessed world<BR>
>is, say, 4 parsecs away, with only deep space between your colony and it.<BR>
><BR>
>Now assume a portion of your population wants to found a new colony<BR>
>somewhere out there, they don't care where, as long as it'll be their _own_<BR>
>planet. What would they do? Take a liner to the other end of Vland sector<BR>
>to settle another world along the Vilani Main (which is almost a year of<BR>
>travel away!), or take a liner with extra fuel instead of cargo space to<BR>
>settle a system four weeks away from you? <BR>
<BR>
If the colonists are really dissatisfied Vilani, they will do what you<BR>
suggest, but more traditional folk wouldn't dare dream of striking out on<BR>
their own!  They have their little slots in life, and if those trouble<BR>
makers want to go out of the reach of normal culture, good riddance!<BR>
<BR>
>Even if you take into account that cargo space will be more expensive on a<BR>
>"4 jump-1 ship" than on a regular liner, it sounds to me fairly reasonable<BR>
>that the colonists will use the latter option. And shortly thereafter, the<BR>
>Ziru Sirka will claim the world for itself, at least during its initial<BR>
>phase of expansion.<BR>
<BR>
Cargo space will be non-existant.  That's another 30% of the ship taken up<BR>
by fuel.  <BR>
<BR>
>Now there is another question: Assume the 3I builds a Rift-crosser: A ship<BR>
>with jump-1, but fuel capacitiy for eight jumps. (Should be practicable<BR>
>with a 300 ton hull, I think.) Now let's look at the map of charted space:<BR>
>Such a courier could make it from the Gushemege-near part of Reft sector to<BR>
>the other side within perhaps 20 weeks (for an Xboat-like net of ships, of<BR>
>course), whereas the regular Xboat way would need cruise around the whole<BR>
>Great rift, thereby needing a total of about 30 to 40 weeks. <BR>
<BR>
The Imperial Navy maintains a set of J-6 couriers that do cross the Rifts,<BR>
much in the way you describe.  The necessity of using 60% of your hull to<BR>
feed one system cuts down on their utility as cargo ships though.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 09:09:33<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
At 03:31 PM 3/4/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From HG2;<BR>
><BR>
>J-drive  1		9% hull volume<BR>
>M-Drive 1		7% hull volume<BR>
>Power Plant 1	between 1% (TL15) and 3% (TL12)<BR>
>Bridge		2% or 20 dT<BR>
>Fuel		80% (8 x J1)<BR>
><BR>
>So you've reached about 100% volume with no living accommodation, <BR>
>cargo space, computer etc.<BR>
><BR>
>You may be able do it but It's going to be a big ship...<BR>
<BR>
I managed to make a two person, J-1 vessel with suffcient fuel for eight<BR>
jumps using FFS2.  These tow better *really* enjoy each other's company<BR>
because they have a single stateroom to share for the entire month out.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 09:21:40 -0800<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
Pretty effective I'd imagine.<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
> During the Paific War, the 3rd NZ division regulary used .55 Boyes <BR>
> AT rifles to deal with Japanese snipers (he's behind a tree, never <BR>
> mind).<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Andrew etc<BR>
> Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
> Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
>  "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
>  always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:34:21 -0600<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 8:28 AM -0600 3/4/2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>At 05:09 AM 3/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>This is why wars between civilizations which utilize mass driver technology<BR>
>>would be awful. Of course if only one side has it, "game over man!" Think of<BR>
>>the Centauri (from B5).<BR>
><BR>
>Aiiieeee!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
I love the use of "Mass Driver" as a horrible weapon of mass destruction.<BR>
A Mass Driver is just a device capable of accelerating a mass, usually<BR>
using electromagnetic forces.  Mass drivers would most likely be used to<BR>
send cargo on trips in star systems from low gravity moons or asteroid<BR>
belts.  A coilgun or gauss gun is also a mass driver.  You can bombard<BR>
a planet with anything from a cannon to a mass driver to a railgun to<BR>
a big rock with a thruster on it.  But then you can also bombard planets<BR>
with nuclear missiles or beam weapons.<BR>
<BR>
As has been mentioned, orbital superiority lets you pretty much do<BR>
whatever you want when it comes to bombardment or stand off attacks.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:56:13 +0100<BR>
From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" <ca-nilse@online.no><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 22:08:38 -0800<BR>
>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
><BR>
>On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 06:49:51 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Bolie Williams IV replied to Leonard Erickson:<BR>
>> > >This is one of the reasons that just about everywhere *outside*<BR>
>> > >North America charges the *caller* for calls to cell phones.<BR>
>> > <BR>
>> > The main reason is that cell phone companies want to reduce the<BR>
>> > cost of ownership of cell phones so that more people will buy them.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Actually, here in Sweden it is always the caller who pays, regardless of<BR>
>> the type of phone (cellular or normal). Sounds quite reasonable to me,<BR>
>> since I am used to it.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>Even calls from land lines?  Does the caller using the land line see<BR>
>individual calls on his or her phone bill, or are these "costs" covered<BR>
>under some sort of monthly bulk rate?<BR>
><BR>
>I suppose this makes sense when Europeans are used to paying for internet<BR>
>connect time *per minute*.  How do you pay for ISDN or other high speed<BR>
>telephone line access?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In Norway, there are different "zones"; local call zones; national call zones; and zones for foreign countries, each having a different "per minute" price.<BR>
Lately, this has been changed to a "per second" price. ISDN is billed at "per second" and a fixed membership price per 3 months. Some companies don't have the membership price.<BR>
Pricelists include to-and-from's like cellular to regular phone, regular to cellular, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
Carl Roger Nilsen<BR>
"Never overlook something that seems to be simple"<BR>
 Prickle-Prickle, day 63 of Chaos, YOLD: 3166 (falsus) <BR>
 128:02:04 (1)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1998<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, March 4 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 1999<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Keith Brothers Supplement, Last update<BR>
Brilliant Lances Follow-up from 26 Feb @ San Jose<BR>
Keith Supplements Site Update<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Whoops -- Sorry!<BR>
Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
Re: Iowa class and Vietnam (was Re: Silent Firearms)<BR>
Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:13:20 +0000<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Keith Brothers Supplement, Last update<BR>
<BR>
At 10:39 AM 3/4/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 3/3/00 5:24:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, <BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> BTW, you probably want to completely forget about it for a while, but it<BR>
>>  might be helpful for other budding self-publishers out there if you<BR>
wrote a<BR>
>>  short piece on the process, the problems you had, anything you'd do<BR>
>>  differently if you did it again, etc. (And I don't mind if you mention me <BR>
>as<BR>
>>  one of the problems <grin>)<BR>
><BR>
>I can tell you the biggest one. Don't count on Speedy and Accurate <BR>
>OCRing.......<BR>
<BR>
Actually, OmniPage-Pro did an excellent job in scanning the text for me<BR>
except when it came to the charts and tables - I had to key all of those in<BR>
by hand as it was quicker than editing the mess the OCR made of 'em. Also<BR>
had to key in the entire "Scam" manuscript - it was handwritten. What took<BR>
the longest was building up the image library - it took months to scan,<BR>
edit and touch-up over 850 of Bill Keith's Traveller illustrations.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:17:36 -0800<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Brilliant Lances Follow-up from 26 Feb @ San Jose<BR>
<BR>
From the last Brilliant Lances game of the Traveller Board Game Group in<BR>
San Jose:<BR>
<BR>
The scenario started as a cat-and-mouse sensor hunt for the pirate fleet<BR>
until the missiles started flying.  The missile barrage was so<BR>
nerve-racking that one Captain left the battle with great haste. <BR>
Fortunately for the crews of the pirate fleet, the missiles were<BR>
launched at such an extreme range that that they didn't have enough fuel<BR>
for last minute course corrections against their evading targets.  <BR>
<BR>
After the action the pirate fleet celebrated by landing on a habitable<BR>
planet and having a barbecuing of some indigenous fauna.<BR>
- --------------------------------------<BR>
The group worked out a few of the bugs in the damage resolution rules<BR>
(BL was brilliantly conceived but the execution and proofreading wasn't<BR>
so good).  All fuel measurements for BL should be converted back into<BR>
dtons instead of m^3.<BR>
<BR>
Next month Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider are on the agenda.  The<BR>
meeting will be on 18 March starting at 11:00.  The meeting is held in<BR>
the Alum Rock/Milpitas area in east San Jose.  Email me for directions<BR>
if you are interested.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
travellerne@3rd-imperium.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:17:33 +0000<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Keith Supplements Site Update<BR>
<BR>
Finished updating the Keith Supplements website a few moments ago. The URL<BR>
is: www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:06:15 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:41:27<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>"You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it<BR>
>and wipe it clean of life -- but if you desire to defend it, protect it,<BR>
>and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the<BR>
>Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud."<BR>
>T.R. Fehrenbach's "This Kind of War:  A Study in Unpreparedness"<BR>
><BR>
>(also the header for Chapter 1 of Ground Forces)<BR>
<BR>
It's comforting to believe that, and it makes a good story.  It would be a<BR>
huge strategic<BR>
blunder for a space-tech society to believe the enemy shared the same<BR>
feelings, though.<BR>
<BR>
What if they employ gene-engineered penguins instead of their own soldiers?<BR>
<BR>
What if they saw military service as the job of their surplus<BR>
anagathic-using old men? (Serve<BR>
in the army and stay healthy...) Okay, the last one wasn't serious.<BR>
<BR>
>If all you have is orbital superiority, and the world is self-suffcient,<BR>
>you have two choices. You either sit there in orbit not controlling the<BR>
>world, or your wipe it clean of life.<BR>
<BR>
True in the broadest sense, but it hinges on a definition of "control."<BR>
What elements do you<BR>
want to control?  Their access to space?  Their ability to do you harm? <BR>
Rewrite their constitution?  Their thoughts?  Any permanent action will<BR>
take a long time and<BR>
require nation-building.  Any temporary action with troops is as<BR>
illusionary as one excercised<BR>
by air or space power.  <BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, "self-sufficient planet" is probably illusion, as the<BR>
component parts of the<BR>
planetary economy may be seperated through selective orbital action.  Kill<BR>
every train,<BR>
ship and aircraft and see how self-sufficient it is. People will still<BR>
live, and you will<BR>
not have "total control" but you will exercise a degree of control.<BR>
<BR>
  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Grav influenced warfare is very fluid. Divisions fight on fronts running<BR>
>hundreds of miles, but right at the edge of battle, things don't change<BR>
>much. Grav vehicles will take advantage of terrain to hide and execute<BR>
>pop-up attacks. The infantry will deploy with anti-armor missiles, and call<BR>
>in artillery/ortillery. Infantry will also handle objectives that aren't<BR>
>appropriate for the heavy armor. Cities, starports, industrial areas.. the<BR>
>things you came here for.<BR>
><BR>
>>If neither side can achieve orbital superiority, or the side that does<BR>
>>doesn't have the resources to provide adequate ortillery support, then we<BR>
>>might see something along the lines of a classical ground campaign.<BR>
><BR>
>Even with complete orbital control, you don't own the ground.<BR>
><BR>
>>The B5 situation you mentioned is a good example....the Narn more than<BR>
>>likely had the same capabilities as the Centauri at the start of their war.<BR>
>>Had there not been interference from the Shadows, we could just have easily<BR>
>>seen Narn cruisers flinging big rocks down onto Centauri Prime. Once the<BR>
>>Centauri achieved orbital superiority over the Narn homeworld, they<BR>
>>basically bombed them into submission with mass drivers, THEN sent in the<BR>
>>troops to mop up.<BR>
><BR>
>And still the Narn resisted. To the point where there were entire<BR>
>battlecruisers wandering around and Centauri reprisals against the civilians.<BR>
><BR>
>Take for example the Battle of Britain.  Far from weakening British<BR>
>resolve, the Blitz hardened morale and determination. You are still in the<BR>
>situation of having to either fight a ground campaign or be prepared to<BR>
>keep that fleet in orbit a long time.<BR>
>- -- <BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
><BR>
>TML Great Old One<BR>
>Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
>Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:43:27<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Silent weapons...<BR>
><BR>
>At 02:21 AM 3/4/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>On the other hand, think of the effect on low-tech natives. Here's this<BR>
>>person or building that has been destroyed by something that looks a<BR>
>>bit like lightning, but unlike lightning is *absolutely straight*. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Two guesses what *they* are gonna think! <BR>
><BR>
>Leonard, I award you with the Legion of Evil Idea Generation, 1st Class,<BR>
>with Clusters.<BR>
><BR>
>That just gave me a wicked idea for a M:0 scenario...<BR>
>- -- <BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:45:15<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: T4 and the maneuver rating<BR>
><BR>
>At 07:00 AM 3/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>I got a copy of Imperial Squadrons and it calls for me to have some numbers<BR>
>>I can't figure out how to calculate in the book. one of those is the<BR>
>>maneuver number, the power number and a thing called P on what is called the<BR>
>>traveller star ship card. Can someone help me find the book that I should be<BR>
>>looking in for these calculations?<BR>
><BR>
>My ship designs were mangled by IG. The starship cards are a sick and<BR>
>twisted joke.<BR>
><BR>
>I'll dig out my copy, and see if I still have the orginmal design specs<BR>
>somewhere. Might be a good project to redo those four ships this weekend.<BR>
>- -- <BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 09:06:18<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
><BR>
>At 11:12 AM 3/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>That is one other thing I sometimes ask myself: If you have just jump-2 or<BR>
>>even only jump-1 technology, what hinders you to use several loads of fuel<BR>
>>and effectively make a jump-6 through deep space?<BR>
><BR>
>Time and risk.<BR>
><BR>
>>But what is really cheaper: Imagine you have a colony at the edge of the<BR>
>>Ziru Sirka, somewhere in Corridor sector. The next free, unpossessed world<BR>
>>is, say, 4 parsecs away, with only deep space between your colony and it.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Now assume a portion of your population wants to found a new colony<BR>
>>somewhere out there, they don't care where, as long as it'll be their _own_<BR>
>>planet. What would they do? Take a liner to the other end of Vland sector<BR>
>>to settle another world along the Vilani Main (which is almost a year of<BR>
>>travel away!), or take a liner with extra fuel instead of cargo space to<BR>
>>settle a system four weeks away from you? <BR>
><BR>
>If the colonists are really dissatisfied Vilani, they will do what you<BR>
>suggest, but more traditional folk wouldn't dare dream of striking out on<BR>
>their own!  They have their little slots in life, and if those trouble<BR>
>makers want to go out of the reach of normal culture, good riddance!<BR>
><BR>
>>Even if you take into account that cargo space will be more expensive on a<BR>
>>"4 jump-1 ship" than on a regular liner, it sounds to me fairly reasonable<BR>
>>that the colonists will use the latter option. And shortly thereafter, the<BR>
>>Ziru Sirka will claim the world for itself, at least during its initial<BR>
>>phase of expansion.<BR>
><BR>
>Cargo space will be non-existant.  That's another 30% of the ship taken up<BR>
>by fuel.  <BR>
><BR>
>>Now there is another question: Assume the 3I builds a Rift-crosser: A ship<BR>
>>with jump-1, but fuel capacitiy for eight jumps. (Should be practicable<BR>
>>with a 300 ton hull, I think.) Now let's look at the map of charted space:<BR>
>>Such a courier could make it from the Gushemege-near part of Reft sector to<BR>
>>the other side within perhaps 20 weeks (for an Xboat-like net of ships, of<BR>
>>course), whereas the regular Xboat way would need cruise around the whole<BR>
>>Great rift, thereby needing a total of about 30 to 40 weeks. <BR>
><BR>
>The Imperial Navy maintains a set of J-6 couriers that do cross the Rifts,<BR>
>much in the way you describe.  The necessity of using 60% of your hull to<BR>
>feed one system cuts down on their utility as cargo ships though.<BR>
><BR>
>- -- <BR>
><BR>
>Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
>perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
>limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 09:09:33<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
><BR>
>At 03:31 PM 3/4/2000 +0000, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> From HG2;<BR>
>><BR>
>>J-drive  1		9% hull volume<BR>
>>M-Drive 1		7% hull volume<BR>
>>Power Plant 1	between 1% (TL15) and 3% (TL12)<BR>
>>Bridge		2% or 20 dT<BR>
>>Fuel		80% (8 x J1)<BR>
>><BR>
>>So you've reached about 100% volume with no living accommodation, <BR>
>>cargo space, computer etc.<BR>
>><BR>
>>You may be able do it but It's going to be a big ship...<BR>
><BR>
>I managed to make a two person, J-1 vessel with suffcient fuel for eight<BR>
>jumps using FFS2.  These tow better *really* enjoy each other's company<BR>
>because they have a single stateroom to share for the entire month out.<BR>
><BR>
>- --<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"<BR>
>                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 09:21:40 -0800<BR>
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
>Pretty effective I'd imagine.<BR>
>Jesse<BR>
><BR>
>> During the Paific War, the 3rd NZ division regulary used .55 Boyes <BR>
>> AT rifles to deal with Japanese snipers (he's behind a tree, never <BR>
>> mind).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Andrew etc<BR>
>> Homepage http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/<BR>
>> Traveller http://www.downport.com/amv/<BR>
>>  "What do you expect from a species whose females are<BR>
>>  always in heat" Ko of the Ilui clan on Humans and honour<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:34:21 -0600<BR>
>From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
><BR>
>At 8:28 AM -0600 3/4/2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>>At 05:09 AM 3/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>This is why wars between civilizations which utilize mass driver technology<BR>
>>>would be awful. Of course if only one side has it, "game over man!"<BR>
Think of<BR>
>>>the Centauri (from B5).<BR>
>><BR>
>>Aiiieeee!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
><BR>
>I love the use of "Mass Driver" as a horrible weapon of mass destruction.<BR>
>A Mass Driver is just a device capable of accelerating a mass, usually<BR>
>using electromagnetic forces.  Mass drivers would most likely be used to<BR>
>send cargo on trips in star systems from low gravity moons or asteroid<BR>
>belts.  A coilgun or gauss gun is also a mass driver.  You can bombard<BR>
>a planet with anything from a cannon to a mass driver to a railgun to<BR>
>a big rock with a thruster on it.  But then you can also bombard planets<BR>
>with nuclear missiles or beam weapons.<BR>
><BR>
>As has been mentioned, orbital superiority lets you pretty much do<BR>
>whatever you want when it comes to bombardment or stand off attacks.<BR>
><BR>
>Bolie IV<BR>
>- -- <BR>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
>Bolie Williams IV<BR>
>bolie@io.com<BR>
>http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:56:13 +0100<BR>
>From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" <ca-nilse@online.no><BR>
>Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
><BR>
>>Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 22:08:38 -0800<BR>
>>From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
>>Subject: Re: OT: The computer dials every number in an exchange<BR>
>><BR>
>>On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 06:49:51 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Bolie Williams IV replied to Leonard Erickson:<BR>
>>> > >This is one of the reasons that just about everywhere *outside*<BR>
>>> > >North America charges the *caller* for calls to cell phones.<BR>
>>> > <BR>
>>> > The main reason is that cell phone companies want to reduce the<BR>
>>> > cost of ownership of cell phones so that more people will buy them.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Actually, here in Sweden it is always the caller who pays, regardless of<BR>
>>> the type of phone (cellular or normal). Sounds quite reasonable to me,<BR>
>>> since I am used to it.  ;-)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Even calls from land lines?  Does the caller using the land line see<BR>
>>individual calls on his or her phone bill, or are these "costs" covered<BR>
>>under some sort of monthly bulk rate?<BR>
>><BR>
>>I suppose this makes sense when Europeans are used to paying for internet<BR>
>>connect time *per minute*.  How do you pay for ISDN or other high speed<BR>
>>telephone line access?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>In Norway, there are different "zones"; local call zones; national call<BR>
zones; and zones for foreign countries, each having a different "per<BR>
minute" price.<BR>
>Lately, this has been changed to a "per second" price. ISDN is billed at<BR>
"per second" and a fixed membership price per 3 months. Some companies<BR>
don't have the membership price.<BR>
>Pricelists include to-and-from's like cellular to regular phone, regular<BR>
to cellular, and so on.<BR>
><BR>
>Carl Roger Nilsen<BR>
>"Never overlook something that seems to be simple"<BR>
> Prickle-Prickle, day 63 of Chaos, YOLD: 3166 (falsus) <BR>
> 128:02:04 (1)<BR>
><BR>
>------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1998<BR>
>***********************************<BR>
><BR>
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 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Anime Line Developer and Senior Staff Writer<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:08:19 -0500<BR>
From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
Subject: Whoops -- Sorry!<BR>
<BR>
Whoops! Sorry -- I thought I'd deleted the entire message end!<BR>
 _____________________________________________________________________<BR>
     David L. Pulver -- Anime Line Developer and Senior Staff Writer<BR>
		     Guardians Of Order Incorporated<BR>
 Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG<BR>
             dlpulver@kos.net  http://www.guardiansorder.on.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:30:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silent firearms...<BR>
<BR>
At 03:06 PM 3/4/2000 -0500, David Pulver wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 08:41:27<BR>
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>"You may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it<BR>
>>and wipe it clean of life -- but if you desire to defend it, protect it,<BR>
>>and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the<BR>
>>Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud."<BR>
>>T.R. Fehrenbach's "This Kind of War:  A Study in Unpreparedness"<BR>
><BR>
>It's comforting to believe that, and it makes a good story.  It would be a<BR>
>huge strategic blunder for a space-tech society to believe the enemy shared <BR>
>the same feelings, though.<BR>
<BR>
I agree, and the Rebellion "Black War" showed what happened when the rules<BR>
get chucked out the proverbial window.<BR>
<BR>
Say the Zhodani decided to end resistance on Efate by dropping dirty nukes<BR>
and then seeded bio-war agents. How easy would it be for the Scouts to<BR>
deliver reprisals to every Zho world they could reach. Just find some<BR>
Scouts from Efate..<BR>
<BR>
It's the mutually assured destruction scenario all over again. An<BR>
interstellar state that employed these tactics would be inviting their<BR>
enemies to use the same measures. The Imperium and their enemies seem to<BR>
have reached a "gentlemen's agreement" about the level of force used in<BR>
warfare.<BR>
<BR>
>What if they employ gene-engineered penguins instead of their own soldiers?<BR>
<BR>
Then we're doomed. DOOMED!<BR>
<BR>
>>If all you have is orbital superiority, and the world is self-suffcient,<BR>
>>you have two choices. You either sit there in orbit not controlling the<BR>
>>world, or your wipe it clean of life.<BR>
><BR>
>True in the broadest sense, but it hinges on a definition of "control."<BR>
>What elements do you want to control?  Their access to space?  Their ability <BR>
>to do you harm? Rewrite their constitution?  Their thoughts?  Any permanent <BR>
>action will take a long time and require nation-building.  Any temporary <BR>
>action with troops is as illusionary as one excercised by air or space <BR>
>power.  <BR>
<BR>
I assumed that we were speaking of a world that had some resource or<BR>
facility that you wanted to control for your own side. If the mission is<BR>
just to prevent the world from reaching space, a siege using a destroyer<BR>
flotilla would probably do the job.  This is what I always saw the HG<BR>
"Siege" assignment as being.  The others will require a long time. But the<BR>
last one, controlling their thoughts, *requires* that troops be on the<BR>
ground. Winning their hearts and minds means getting down among the<BR>
population.<BR>
<BR>
>Incidentally, "self-sufficient planet" is probably illusion, as the<BR>
>component parts of the planetary economy may be seperated through selective <BR>
>orbital action.  Kill every train, ship and aircraft and see how <BR>
>self-sufficient it is. People will still live, and you will<BR>
>not have "total control" but you will exercise a degree of control.<BR>
<BR>
A degree yes, but that control will come at the cost of setting the<BR>
population solidly against you.  Better to land and make sure the trains<BR>
run on time. Contact with your *enemy* has a humanizing effect. Only a few<BR>
years after the end of WWII, American troops were fast becoming part of<BR>
Bavarian social structure. The presence of an immediate threat helped, of<BR>
course, but people react better to a shy 19 year old trying to order a beer<BR>
(badly) in the local tongue than orbiting specks that rain death at<BR>
unpredictable intervals.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:33:23 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 15:12:56 +0000, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The Missouri Archive has a GIF map (by leroy?) showing the mains in <BR>
> known space.<BR>
<BR>
It does?  Can't seem to find it...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Smash forehead on keyboard to continue...<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 20:53:29 +0000<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to everyone who responded, on or off the list. I've so far<BR>
managed to check out Blue Planet, the Venice webpage and the Mermani<BR>
Descent adventure in Traveller Chronicle #5. I'd already looked at The<BR>
Underwater Environment, Drenslaar Quest and Nomads of the World Ocean.<BR>
<BR>
All sources seem to leave permanent underwater habitation to modified<BR>
humans and uplifted cetaceans, housing normal humans on islands or<BR>
floating city-ships. TC5 came closest to what I was looking for, with<BR>
plans for a research facility. The single most useful thing so far has<BR>
been the observation that (apart from the reversed pressure gradient,<BR>
and the presence of gravity) problems are similar for underwater and<BR>
space habitats.<BR>
<BR>
OK, given an established city on the continental shelf, here are some of<BR>
the features I might expect (assuming a geologically stable region):<BR>
<BR>
* Curvy external architecture to cope with the pressure difference, e.g.<BR>
domes connected by cylindrical tunnels. Perhaps we can extend the recent<BR>
dome size discussion to cover this...<BR>
<BR>
* Oxygen from "cracked" water, with the hydrogen going back into power<BR>
generation. Do any other gases get used up in respiration and need<BR>
replacing? What's the best thing to do with the CO2 produced?<BR>
<BR>
* Water purification plants for drinking water.<BR>
<BR>
* Most food being locally-produced aquaculture, with kelp and algae (or<BR>
their analogues) as staples and land-grown food being the biggest<BR>
luxury.<BR>
<BR>
* Large tunnels connecting the city to the mainland for ease of travel.<BR>
<BR>
* Possibly a ban on any weapons which could accidentally breach the<BR>
domes.<BR>
<BR>
* Probably drills to keep people aware of what they need to do if there<BR>
is a breach.<BR>
<BR>
Any additions or comments? Would you expect much subterranean<BR>
development (i.e., below the sea bed)?<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) ru--(+) ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 14:26:19 +0000<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Underwater habitation<BR>
<BR>
At 08:53 PM 3/4/00 +0000, John G. Wood wrote:<BR>
>Thanks to everyone who responded, on or off the list. I've so far<BR>
>managed to check out Blue Planet, the Venice webpage and the Mermani<BR>
>Descent adventure in Traveller Chronicle #5. I'd already looked at The<BR>
>Underwater Environment, Drenslaar Quest and Nomads of the World Ocean.<BR>
><BR>
>OK, given an established city on the continental shelf, here are some of<BR>
>the features I might expect (assuming a geologically stable region):<BR>
><BR>
>* Curvy external architecture to cope with the pressure difference, e.g.<BR>
>domes connected by cylindrical tunnels. Perhaps we can extend the recent<BR>
>dome size discussion to cover this...<BR>
><BR>
>* Oxygen from "cracked" water, with the hydrogen going back into power<BR>
>generation. Do any other gases get used up in respiration and need<BR>
>replacing? What's the best thing to do with the CO2 produced?<BR>
><BR>
>* Water purification plants for drinking water.<BR>
><BR>
>* Most food being locally-produced aquaculture, with kelp and algae (or<BR>
>their analogues) as staples and land-grown food being the biggest<BR>
>luxury.<BR>
><BR>
>* Large tunnels connecting the city to the mainland for ease of travel.<BR>
><BR>
>* Possibly a ban on any weapons which could accidentally breach the<BR>
>domes.<BR>
><BR>
>* Probably drills to keep people aware of what they need to do if there<BR>
>is a breach.<BR>
><BR>
>Any additions or comments? Would you expect much subterranean<BR>
>development (i.e., below the sea bed)?<BR>
<BR>
You might also want to check out the novella "Alien Sea" by John Rackham<BR>
(published as an Ace double in 1968). The info. might be marginally useful.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:46:58 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Imperial expansion to trailing<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:11:45 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 20:15 03.03.00 -0800, James W. Lindsay wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> Then there is another question: <BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> By the time the 3I was established, corward expansion beyond Rule Of Man<BR>
> >> territory was impossible due to the Vargr there.They _did_ expand to<BR>
> >> spinward and they _did_ expand towards the rim, even farther than the<BR>
> >> Terrans had done. But what they somehow avoided was expansion from Core to<BR>
> >> trailing? There are only a few minor states there by 1115, and the Two<BR>
> >> Thousand Worlds are far enough away to allow at least to take another two<BR>
> >> sectors or so. Especially the Archdukes of the Domain of Gateway should<BR>
> >> have had an interest in expanding his domain, to make them more powerful<BR>
> >> within the Imperium. What stopped Imperial expansion here, almost right<BR>
> >> behind Core's very own backyard?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The only answer I can suggest is that the Third Imperium was simply "tired"<BR>
> >and happy with it's current size.  The Rebellion showed how sensitive a<BR>
> >star-spanning empire of 11,000 worlds is-- imagine trying to hold together<BR>
> >12,000 worlds...<BR>
> <BR>
> :-)<BR>
> Okay, but if _you_ were the Archduke of Gateway in the year, say, 300, and<BR>
> you had some ressources at your hands to expand your power and wealth<BR>
> within the Imperium just by expanding, wouldn't you do what you can to get<BR>
> those other two sectors of your official domain into the empire?<BR>
<BR>
Not really-- not just for the sake of "expanding".  I have no stellar data<BR>
on that part of the Imperium so I can't comment on jump routes, world<BR>
economics, etc.<BR>
<BR>
However, the Imperium first came in "contact" with the K'kree around the<BR>
year 100... perhaps it was in their best interest *not* to expand towards a<BR>
militant vegetarian culture that *exterminates* all local meat eaters? :)<BR>
<BR>
> IMO it is more likely that Imperial expansion would have stopped just at<BR>
> Terra in such a case. Those sectors beyond Solmani Rim are much farer away<BR>
> from Sylea/Capital than Gateway, Crucis Margin and the like.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, we don't know for sure exactly when the various worlds of the 1st<BR>
Imperium were "absorbed", and it what order.  It is possible that the<BR>
Vilani planned to expand further coreward and trailing, but their little<BR>
confrontation with the hairless apes on Terra kinda put a dent in their<BR>
plans.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Smash forehead on keyboard to continue...<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:47:39 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Iowa class and Vietnam (was Re: Silent Firearms)<BR>
<BR>
This thread triggered a remembrance of something an old friend told me about<BR>
so I just called him to verify.  He is an old navy officer who served in<BR>
Vietnam on the Prichard (561) back in 69' and 70'.  She was the last of the<BR>
old non-coverted Fletcher class destroyers.  She was in the delta up the<BR>
Makong as he put it "to the turn in the river" in places occasionally  where<BR>
she had 1' of clearance on each side.  5 out of 6 of her 5" guns still<BR>
worked some of the 3"s but they didn't use them much, some 20 mms, 50 cals<BR>
and depth charges both ash cans and y guns.  She was the "river battleship"<BR>
supporting a river squadron wihich stayed inside the range of her 5" guns,<BR>
12 and 25 miles normal and assisted respectively.  She was also in Camron<BR>
Bay on what was their equivalent of our "intercoastal waterway".    He said<BR>
that 3 or 4 rounds from her 5' guns would make anything hostile simply<BR>
disapear.  She was thus a very accurate relatively invunerable source of<BR>
fire support via naval artillery for riverine operations.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 14:25:55 -0800<BR>
From: "James W. Lindsay" <jlindsay@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Low Jump Number Question<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 11:12:11 +0100, Ingo Heinscher wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Studying the dot map further, the star density seems much less dense<BR>
> >coreward into the Vargr Extents (whom the Vilani were NOT aware of) and<BR>
> >spinward into Corridor sector.  While expanding coreward wouldn't be<BR>
> >impossible (with multiple jump-1s spanning the many two-parsec jumps), it<BR>
> >wouldn't be nearly as profitable.<BR>
> <BR>
> That is one other thing I sometimes ask myself: If you have just jump-2 or<BR>
> even only jump-1 technology, what hinders you to use several loads of fuel<BR>
> and effectively make a jump-6 through deep space?<BR>
<BR>
The same two forces that drive economies today: time and money.  A good<BR>
example is the 400t type-R subsidized merchant.  It has jump-1 and makes a<BR>
living primarily by sticking to known jump-1 routes.  While it *can* use an<BR>
auxiliary fuel bladder to store enough fuel for a second subsequent jump-1<BR>
hop, these vessels only do this to transfer from main to main.  That extra<BR>
jump-1 translates into a week spent not earning profit (I sound like a<BR>
Ferengi), which is bad enough on a subsidized fleet but which can seriously<BR>
affect private merchants with monthly loan payments.<BR>
<BR>
> Okay, I kow what you'll say, it's not very economic to use a jump-3 route<BR>
> this way, especially if there are other jump-1 or jump-2 routes out there. <BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
> But what is really cheaper: Imagine you have a colony at the edge of the<BR>
> Ziru Sirka, somewhere in Corridor sector. The next free, unpossessed world<BR>
> is, say, 4 parsecs away, with only deep space between your colony and it.<BR>
<BR>
Such a colony would have to be more or less self sufficient.  It wouldn't<BR>
have been chosen otherwise.  With only jump-1 vessels available, you're<BR>
looking at a *minimum* of two months round trip (probably closer to three).<BR>
*NO* jump-1 merchant is going to make a profit on that sort of run unless<BR>
he is either heavily subsidized by the government or charges exorbitant<BR>
prices.<BR>
<BR>
> Now assume a portion of your population wants to found a new colony<BR>
> somewhere out there, they don't care where, as long as it'll be their _own_<BR>
> planet. What would they do? Take a liner to the other end of Vland sector<BR>
> to settle another world along the Vilani Main (which is almost a year of<BR>
> travel away!), or take a liner with extra fuel instead of cargo space to<BR>
> settle a system four weeks away from you? <BR>
<BR>
Hard to settle a colony when you've sacrificed cargo space for fuel.  If<BR>
these colonists are truly serious about settling worlds beyond the jump-1<BR>
routes, they already have an "independent" mindset about them.  IOW, they<BR>
would already accept the fact that they will see next to no off-world<BR>
merchant traffic.<BR>
<BR>
> Even if you take into account that cargo space will be more expensive on a<BR>
> "4 jump-1 ship" than on a regular liner, it sounds to me fairly reasonable<BR>
> that the colonists will use the latter option. And shortly thereafter, the<BR>
> Ziru Sirka will claim the world for itself, at least during its initial<BR>
> phase of expansion.<BR>
<BR>
You can only "claim" what you can control & protect.  Since the Ziru Sirka<BR>
navy was still jump-1, it just wouldn't be feasible to claim control over<BR>
worlds they couldn't reach easily.  Such a world would become a Client<BR>
State, and not an actual member of the ZS-- at least not until further<BR>
advancements in jump technology.<BR>
<BR>
> Now there is another question: Assume the 3I builds a Rift-crosser: A ship<BR>
> with jump-1, but fuel capacitiy for eight jumps. (Should be practicable<BR>
> with a 300 ton hull, I think.) Now let's look at the map of charted space:<BR>
> Such a courier could make it from the Gushemege-near part of Reft sector to<BR>
> the other side within perhaps 20 weeks (for an Xboat-like net of ships, of<BR>
> course), whereas the regular Xboat way would need cruise around the whole<BR>
> Great rift, thereby needing a total of about 30 to 40 weeks. <BR>
<BR>
First of all, a ship comprised of 80% fuel won't leave much room for<BR>
anything, especially cargo space-- which would need to be filled with<BR>
settlement equipment & supplies.<BR>
<BR>
Second, such an established colony would *obviously* be on its own, since<BR>
it just wouldn't be economically feasible to trade back and forth over a<BR>
distance of 20 parsecs with only jump-1 vessels.<BR>
<BR>
There's also the economic costs of setting up such a far-fetched settlement<BR>
attempt.<BR>
<BR>
> And of course, deep space bases: Building and maintaining bases at jump-4<BR>
> distances throughout the Great Rift could be much cheaper than only using<BR>
> planets. _Especially_ if you are willing to let civilian merchant craft use<BR>
> these bases, too (for a fee, of course).<BR>
<BR>
Not nearly as "cheap" as you'd think.  First off, you'd have to carry 80%<BR>
fuel to make a round trip 4 parsec jump.  This leaves *very* little room to<BR>
carry cargo.  You can't build a base out of vacuum and stellar dust :)<BR>
<BR>
> Plus, of course, the military aspect: Having deep space bases at strategic<BR>
> points in deep space (where they are virtually unattackable, as long as the<BR>
> enemy doesn't know their exact position) might be a major asset. (Look at<BR>
> sthe Spinward Marches  and remeber the Frontier Wars, for example.) And of<BR>
> course there will be tenders, specifically built as "mobile deep space<BR>
> bases" (which is probably cheaper, if I think it over...)<BR>
<BR>
Again, having such a rift would be far more beneficial if used as a sort of<BR>
Maginot Line-- except that it would cost *nothing* to maintain.<BR>
<BR>
Now if you are talking about putting military supply bases in hexes on a<BR>
map *within the ZS* that simply don't have star systems in them, you've got<BR>
another problem: these are *military* bases and would be kept secret.<BR>
Traders couldn't use them to hop from main to main.<BR>
<BR>
> Is it just my few books, or are these ideas not used in canon material as<BR>
> much as they should be?<BR>
<BR>
It all boils down to economics-- governments usually choose the plan that<BR>
is the cheapest :)<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, there is the Vilani mindset.  Vilani are probably the most<BR>
concervative-thinking individuals in known space :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
James W. Lindsay             Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada<BR>
Website: http://members.home.net/jlindsay          ICQ: #7521644<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Smash forehead on keyboard to continue...<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
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End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1999<BR>
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